Bharat Rakshak

>> you can explain how a broader
>> you can explain how "inane" theories
>> you might want to explain why/how much greater
>> You might want to explain how transit rights
>> You might also want to explain how

Yep – that's what we need - let's line up to give "explanations" to our local troll.

We will try - as soon you can coherently explain, how an US-Canada relationship can be developed between India and a people who tend to think of steady ethnic cleansing of Hindus as a natural part of societal culture.

Without changing the nature of BD society, trade, giving up land or any other means of appeasement is not going to help. Ridiculous comparisons with Indonesia and Europe, where the latter is under not threat of losing land, secessionist threats from squatters (like from MULTA) don’t help.

As soon as you can explain how giving up land area, will create “influence” amongst people who have a track record of 98% of their rape victims being Hindus.

Of course, then again we can always declare something as axiomatic, by pre-pending it with "by all accounts" and such other nauseating logic.

^^^Ahh, now I get it...so you werent interested in facts of the case , or ways forward - only in the fulminations ..Carry on, please! Sorry for having asked you to explain positions that are obviously way beyond your...., well....

>> having asked you to explain positions that are obviously way beyond your....,

"by all accounts" personal attacks do help your case... sigh! if we all could believe in such wonderful "practical" ways forward as trade to convert India-BD into a US-Canada relationship.

Maybe with such well thought through rationalizations, next year only 97% of the women raped in Bangladesh will be Hindus.

incidentally, how much sermonizing do we see in BD media to develop relations with India, like the ones we are seeing from every corner in India ? can't say I have seen that many.
at best it is 'India should give us this, India should give us that, India not doing enough' to "India is oppressing us, evil India is trying to occupy/destroy us". and finally "how to break away north-east from India" and "how to grab west bengal in the process". the thought process is by and large extremely paki, there is a MASSIVE sense of entitlement which seems to have been inherited from the pakis. conspiracy theories and fear mongering abound. I can't read the paki urdu media but I get something quite like it from the numerous bangladeshi web outlets and blogs.

simply put, in spite of our collective good wishes and hand wringing, we can't have good relations with BD if they themselves don't want it.
and unfortunately the majority do not. do they want largesse from India ? you bet they do. but are they ready to do *anything* in return ? the answer is a resounding no.
bangladeshi hindu population is around 10% and I would estimate around 5% of the educated muslim population (roughly a little less than half the middle class) has an objective point of view towards India. OTOH, many BD hindus have to be overtly critical of India in order to prove their bangladeshi credentials. the rest, including the people who vote for AL are highly radicalised and see all hindus as enemies or at best, easy prey.
let us not delude ourselves into believing that AL is massively different, people vote for AL out of local considerations, not in support of their (relatively) India friendly foreign policy.
likewise, AL cracks down on JeI because it is a political opponent and madrassa cadre are a threat to its influence, not out of some serious irreconcilable ideological disagreements.

One sided bargains are never good.
Economic incentives, social accomodation, territorial concessions etc have no history of modifying islamist behaviour . They know it, we know it and whole world knows it that Danda is the only solution to keep them away. Indian IZI concept and enforcement will go long way to reform the manufactured grievences and sense of entitlement. The only issue is how fast can we achieve such leverage. Provoking and liquidating such threats would serve India 's long term social, economic, cultural, national security and civilizational interests.

Prem wrote:The only issue is how fast can we achieve such leverage.

And how exactly can we build "such leverage"?

Prem wrote:One sided bargains are never good.

Which of the follwing is "one-sided":
1. Transit
2. Trans-shipment
3. FTA/CECA
4. Formalisation of borders through a land swap

it's not as if we are getting transit access for free, we are going to pay for it and AFAIK BD gets free infrastructure to boot, including a rail link if memory serves right. and what's to say the next BNP or JeI govt won't turn the deal on its head and refuse transit while we would have wasted billions ? what would GoI do ?

same with the other points, FTA is supposed to be mutually beneficial, the situation right now is anyway loaded in our favour so by itself it is a sop. what's more an FTA would likely translate as a bridgehead to attack the Indian market for 3rd party manufacturers, as is happening with nepal. again, all points in favour of BD.
how is that not enough ?
why exactly do we have to surrender thousands of acres of land ?

Hmm so MMS bartering Desh Land in return for transit to Islamists at the Gate depending on one's view . A minor pause who released PM's brief on B'desh on PMO website just MEA & PM to visit Dacca ? Think again .

A small prediction : No barter gonna happen so long MMS on chair . Till then yes please continue on pros & cons it helps to digest our not so spicy desh bhog .

Rahul M wrote:it's not as if we are getting transit access for free, we are going to pay for it and AFAIK BD gets free infrastructure to boot, including a rail link if memory serves right. and what's to say the next BNP or JeI govt won't turn the deal on its head and refuse transit while we would have wasted billions ? what would GoI do ?

Any transit fee, and thats not been negotiated yet, will be a very small fraction of the economic benefits accruing to NE through a greater integration to India's East..Access to Chittagong port will change the way international trade and commerce is done out of NE - with markets of South East Asia getting "accessed" - payoffs again will be hugely disproportionate to the yet-to-be-decided transit fee..

It will be very difficult for any govt in BD to overturn the deal, as it will be reciprocal - BD gets transit though India, letting it acess other markets in South Asia - Bhutan, Nepal, Pakistan, potentially Afghanistan as well! (Coming to think of it, it can act as our Trojan Horse - Pak doesnt allow Indian trade to pass through its territory into Af..It wouldnt have issues with BD though, so why not setup facilities in BD and start trading with Af overland via Pak? )...So all this access PLUS the trasit fee - builds enormous vested interests not to rescind...

BTW, the infrastructure on both sides will be built by the respective countries - India might fund some of it on the BD side (part of the 1 billion credit line maybe)...

same with the other points, FTA is supposed to be mutually beneficial, the situation right now is anyway loaded in our favour so by itself it is a sop. again, all points in favour of BD.
how is that not enough ?

An FTA with BD, indeed a SAFTA, would have most of the addiotnalities (trade and macro) accruing to India - this is a well-researched area...So its not a "sop", its mutually beneficial..

One point on the trade balance - its quite superficial to conclude that a movement from a huge trade surplus to a lower surplus or balanced trade account is "detrimental" - higher imports from a specific country in most cases denote more competitive intermediates/finished goods for the domestic economy - leading to again, additionalities accruing here...Its basic trade theory (no better source than Jagdish Bhagwati)...

what's more an FTA would likely translate as a bridgehead to attack the Indian market for 3rd party manufacturers, as is happening with nepal.

Hmm, Nepal exports something like 500-600 million dollars to India (from memory), and runs a massive trade deficit - should be 3-4 billion dollars...500-600 million dollars of goods hardly constitutes an "attack" on any Indian industry...

To top it all, a CECA/FTA between India and BD (ultimately for the whole of SA) would bring the illegal trade overground, an again, given that trade volumes will be overwhelmingly Indian, the revenue accruing to the Indian treasury out of that would dwarf anything that other countries would derive out of it...

why exactly do we have to surrender thousands of acres of land ?

We are not "surrendering" any land, much less thousands of acres...Indian enclaves in BD are surrounded on all sides by BD, and in fact need to "encroach" into BD in order to avail of basic services like water and power (ditto for BD enclaves in India)...The plan is to simply absorb the enclaves into the respective territories...

Rahul M wrote:simply put, in spite of our collective good wishes and hand wringing, we can't have good relations with BD if they themselves don't want it.
and unfortunately the majority do not. do they want largesse from India ? you bet they do. but are they ready to do *anything* in return ? the answer is a resounding no.
bangladeshi hindu population is around 10% and I would estimate around 5% of the educated muslim population (roughly a little less than half the middle class) has an objective point of view towards India. OTOH, many BD hindus have to be overtly critical of India in order to prove their bangladeshi credentials. the rest, including the people who vote for AL are highly radicalised and see all hindus as enemies or at best, easy prey.
let us not delude ourselves into believing that AL is massively different, people vote for AL out of local considerations, not in support of their (relatively) India friendly foreign policy.
likewise, AL cracks down on JeI because it is a political opponent and madrassa cadre are a threat to its influence, not out of some serious irreconcilable ideological disagreements.

Rahul M ji,

Very true indeed. Other than AKalam ji, another BRFite from Bangladesh, I have only similar negative Internet experience to speak of.

Me thinks, there is a possibility of a conflict between Myanmar and Bangladesh regarding their maritime boundary coming up. We should provide substantial military (naval) hardware support to Myanmar to give Bangladesh a sound licking. It will do wonders to increase their sense of isolation, and may be they will think differently about cooperation with India.

Secondly as soon as China starts damming the waters of Brahmaputra, we should cut off all water supply to Bangladesh, and tell them to take up the issue with China if they want. Another issue which would acerbate their sense of vulnerability from nations other than India, and give them impetus to think about India differently.

Thirdly due to the vulnerability of the transit route to Northeast through Bangladesh, we should simply let it be and try to arrange a route to the Indian Northeast from some port in Myanmar's Rakhine State. The fact, that we would be helping them with naval hardware, could help us in getting support for such a route. In fact, if Myanmar can provide such routes to China, they can also provide such routes to India. We should also be developing our railroad infrastructure through Siliguri Pass, perhaps through high-speed rail. The transit route through Bangladesh is too much of a risk, as a BNP-JeI combo in power can take the infrastructure we build, but cancel our transit rights, or try to blackmail us.

^^^^
The other two are strawman points - there is no incipient "war" between BD an Myanmar and China's Brahmaputra "damming" is still a question up in the air...But this..

RajeshA wrote: Thirdly due to the vulnerability of the transit route to Northeast through Bangladesh, we should simply let it be and try to arrange a route to the Indian Northeast from some port in Myanmar's Rakhine State. The fact, that we would be helping them with naval hardware, could help us in getting support for such a route. In fact, if Myanmar can provide such routes to China, they can also provide such routes to India.

Look at a map - does Myanmar offer transit from Calcutta to Agartala? And what is the cost of accessing a port in Myanmar vis a vis Chittagong? Is it dramatically lower than the cost of simply accessing Calcutta port?

We should also be developing our railroad infrastructure through Siliguri Pass, perhaps through high-speed rail. The transit route through Bangladesh is too much of a risk, as a BNP-JeI combo in power can take the infrastructure we build, but cancel our transit rights, or try to blackmail us.

High speed rail via siliguri into NE?! Have you travelled through that region, ever?

CLAWS - Security Challenges to India-Bangladesh Relations
Working paper 1 - 2010

Dr Mansi Mehrotra-Khanna

http://www.claws.in/Working_Paper_1_-_MMK.pdf

Mughal Monetary and socio-cultural policies were used to change the strategic landscape of the Bengal delta....there is no reason why it cannot be changed again...provided we know how to use the stick well....

somnath wrote:^^^^
The other two are strawman points - there is no incipient "war" between BD an Myanmar and China's Brahmaputra "damming" is still a question up in the air...But this..

Who knows, may be Myanmar backed off in November 2008 with its maritime face-off with Bangladesh, because it was not confident of a superior navy. That is something that can change. Perhaps by our hand. There are many riches lying within the Bay of Bengal, riches that many crave, riches that can tempt the Myanmarese to restart hostilities. A temptation, that we could plant in the hearts of the junta.

As far as Brahmaputra's damming is concerned, I think the droughts in China, political instability due to meager agricultural produce and their surprisingly forthcoming nature on their plans for the damming in the region, are clear signs of what portends to come.

somnath wrote:

RajeshA wrote: Thirdly due to the vulnerability of the transit route to Northeast through Bangladesh, we should simply let it be and try to arrange a route to the Indian Northeast from some port in Myanmar's Rakhine State. The fact, that we would be helping them with naval hardware, could help us in getting support for such a route. In fact, if Myanmar can provide such routes to China, they can also provide such routes to India.

Look at a map - does Myanmar offer transit from Calcutta to Agartala? And what is the cost of accessing a port in Myanmar vis a vis Chittagong? Is it dramatically lower than the cost of simply accessing Calcutta port?

Look at the map. It does. Myanmar does offer transit from Calcutta to Agartala. Through the sea route over Myanmar or through Siliguri Corridor.

Cost of Accessing? One drives the costs down as much as one can. Over the long run, by building good infrastructure the costs would come down.

somnath wrote:

We should also be developing our railroad infrastructure through Siliguri Pass, perhaps through high-speed rail. The transit route through Bangladesh is too much of a risk, as a BNP-JeI combo in power can take the infrastructure we build, but cancel our transit rights, or try to blackmail us.

High speed rail via siliguri into NE?! Have you travelled through that region, ever?

No I haven't. But you should have a look at the 3 Gorges Dam and see all what is possible. But if one is inclined to defeatism, that would indeed be asking for too much.

************

Actually the arguments I gave earlier, were designed to show that through certain policies and processes, Bangladeshis can be forced to change their attitude towards Indians, and vie for cooperation just as much we have been hearing from you. So I was in fact, supporting your PoV.

The fact is that BNP-JeI Combo thrive on their anti-Indianism, and whenever they come to power all our investment may go down the drain, and our logistics may end up becoming hostage to the political whims of these political forces. Whatever you are trying, there is no support for it in Bangladesh across the partisan divide. Just look at how Pakistan blackmails USA due to the supply routes passing through its territory.

Rahul,

What you say about entrenched anti-India forces in Bd is correct. But the question is will isolationism going to change their behaviour towards India or Hindus.

RajeshA wrote:Look at the map. It does. Myanmar does offer transit from Calcutta to Agartala. Through the sea route over Myanmar or through Siliguri Corridor

??Why would you want to cut across to Myanmar if the route is through Siliguri from Cal? Just go straight down to Agartala...

RajeshA wrote:No I haven't. But you should have a look at the 3 Gorges Dam and see all what is possible. But if one is inclined to defeatism, that would indeed be asking for too much.

Flat terrain and straight lines are sine qua non for HSR..We can have a better rail/road network - I am told the road netowrk is already much better...But nothing beats a straight transit cutting through BD..It doesnt have to be HSR - just a pasable road/rail link - would immediately transform NE's economy....

RajeshA wrote:Actually the arguments I gave earlier, were designed to show that through certain policies and processes, Bangladeshis can be forced to change their attitude towards Indians, and vie for cooperation just as much we have been hearing from you. So I was in fact, supporting your PoV.

Like asking 25 million Indians to prove their citizenship afresh?

Influence is bought by carrots and sticks - currently, the carrots are simply not visible - the narrative is overshadowed by apprehensions, fears and prejudices - some real, some not...simply threatening to brandish real and imaginary (and yes, fantastic as well!) sticks doesnt create strategic space (if it did, US would have had a lot of it in Cuba, or Iran)...

Supratik wrote:But the question is will isolationism going to change their behaviour towards India or Hindus.

The way to deal with Islamists and Muslim Chauvinists is to act as if one does not need them for anything, and our only involvement with them is to keep them out of our territory.

It is when the Islamist or Muslim Chauvinist Elite can deliver to the mango abduls, neither visions of importance nor hostility of siege, that this elite becomes powerless, for then they become incapable of harnessing the motivational energy of Islam towards others, and end up eating up their own societies.

Anything you ask of a Muslim country, the Muslim country would always feel a sense of entitlement over you. This they feel even so, but then that sense of entitlement receives extra nourishment through your request of cooperation or of help. This they will neither let you forget nor would they ever be satisfied with what they receive.

And since it is always a confirmation of importance that they seek, they will always act tactically brilliant and use your dependence on them as a tool of political blackmail in a very open fashion, rather than thinking of concerns that others would otherwise be tempted to look for other solutions and means, and in the midterm they would end up losing their influence.

As such if decide to take transit rights through their territory, we will always be forced to listen to their political blackmail, and our ministers would have to often fly over to Dhaka to "cool their temperatures". Should we then come down with a heavy hand on the issue of immigration, they would again cry foul, and stop the transit.

So the way to go about dealing with Bangladeshis is

• don't be dependent on them
• don't let them establish entitlements over you
• minimize the irritants footprint, say the border
• push them all behind a huge fence
• bombard them with your cultural offerings, always passively showing your cultural and monetary superiority
• for any transgression come down with a very very heavy hammer on them and keep on pounding them till they do not submit themselves to the Indian State (Deganga...)

somnath wrote:

RajeshA wrote:Look at the map. It does. Myanmar does offer transit from Calcutta to Agartala. Through the sea route over Myanmar or through Siliguri Corridor

??Why would you want to cut across to Myanmar if the route is through Siliguri from Cal? Just go straight down to Agartala...

So if one can go from Calcutta to Agartala through the Siliguri, why are you asking for transit between Calcutta and Agartala through Bangladesh, and Chittagong Port?

somnath wrote:

RajeshA wrote:No I haven't. But you should have a look at the 3 Gorges Dam and see all what is possible. But if one is inclined to defeatism, that would indeed be asking for too much.

Flat terrain and straight lines are sine qua non for HSR..We can have a better rail/road network - I am told the road netowrk is already much better...But nothing beats a straight transit cutting through BD..It doesnt have to be HSR - just a pasable road/rail link - would immediately transform NE's economy....

One can increase the amount of traffic through the Siliguri Corridor.

You know, if one can get New Zealand Kiwis and Apples in Germany, then NE's economy can be transformed through the Siliguri Corridor as well. Distance and Time of Travel are not the make-and-break issues. One just needs a good logistical infrastructure over whatever route one is transporting.

somnath wrote:

RajeshA wrote:Actually the arguments I gave earlier, were designed to show that through certain policies and processes, Bangladeshis can be forced to change their attitude towards Indians, and vie for cooperation just as much we have been hearing from you. So I was in fact, supporting your PoV.

Like asking 25 million Indians to prove their citizenship afresh?

You call the 25 million Bangladeshis living in India as Indian citizens? Hmmm...

Anyway, I meant the three points, using which we can make Bangladesh feel more vulnerable, more isolated, so that Bangladeshis themselves feel the need to get close to India, thus finally creating an atmosphere in which what you propose can function.

somnath wrote:Influence is bought by carrots and sticks - currently, the carrots are simply not visible - the narrative is overshadowed by apprehensions, fears and prejudices - some real, some not...simply threatening to brandish real and imaginary (and yes, fantastic as well!) sticks doesnt create strategic space (if it did, US would have had a lot of it in Cuba, or Iran)...

Try feeding carrots to wolves!

BTW, Absence of carrots is not the same thing as sticks.

By the way, you did not answer:

RajeshA wrote:The fact is that BNP-JeI Combo thrive on their anti-Indianism, and whenever they come to power all our investment may go down the drain, and our logistics may end up becoming hostage to the political whims of these political forces. Whatever you are trying, there is no support for it in Bangladesh across the partisan divide. Just look at how Pakistan blackmails USA due to the supply routes passing through its territory.

So is the answer again going to be...

"There are no easy answers. But you get the drift...."

RajeshA wrote:And since it is always a confirmation of importance that they seek, they will always act tactically brilliant and use your dependence on them as a tool of political blackmail in a very open fashion, rather than thinking of concerns that others would otherwise be tempted to look for other solutions and means, and in the midterm they would end up losing their influence.

As such if decide to take transit rights through their territory, we will always be forced to listen to their political blackmail, and our ministers would have to often fly over to Dhaka to "cool their temperatures". Should we then come down with a heavy hand on the issue of immigration, they would again cry foul, and stop the transit

I am sorry, but this is utter, unmitigated rubbish...

All "muslim countries" are like that, is it? Singapore depends on a muslim country, Malaysia for the most precious resource of them all, water..(It also happens to be a country which it broke away from)..Malaysia and Singapore have some of the closest economic cooperative structures, culminating in the ASEAN...In the larger context, there is of course ASEAN, the most successful politico-economic structure ever built, which has Malaysia, Indonesia and Brunei - 3 muslim countries co-participating with deeply Christian, Chinese, Buddhist and multi-cultural countries in the region...

Of course, further west, Turkey, another "muslim" country, has the closest cooperative structures with EU...

All of this is leagues ahead of what we currently have vis a vis BD, and ahead of whatever we have even as "proposals"...

Thankfully, in the real world, policymakers dont act on the basis of such bizarre stereotypes...

RajeshA wrote:You call the 25 million Bangladeshis living in India as Indian citizens? Hmmm...

Anyway, I meant the three points, using which we can make Bangladesh feel more vulnerable, more isolated, so that Bangladeshis themselves feel the need to get close to India, thus finally creating an atmosphere in which what you propose can function.

~25% of the bengali population is muslim, and not all of them are illegal immigrants..

On your points, as I said, two are non-sequitor, the third, well its being tried...We are trying to build some road network in Myanmar onto Sittwe...But its a vastly suboptimal solution...And doesnt tackle the issue of connectivity with Calcutta...

One of course does not have to be a logistics expert to know the difference between a land route via Siliguri and one cutting through BD, enroute Agartala...

About the prospect of BNP coming back to power, our attempts should be to build bridges across the divide...So that relations become largely, if not fully, agnostic to partisan politics...The only way to build that is by having clear, optical, visible carrots for BD...BD isnt Pak - even under a BNP dispensation...they have been looking to improve their lot economically seriously for the last decade now...A share of the "India pie", in an arrangement where the externalities are anyway mostly acruing to India, will create that constituency...

Of course, for people who believe in the policymaking of the fantasy world of imaginary sticks, they are welcome to their POVs!

ravi_ku wrote: Good, so as expected it was the platitudes. touched a raw nerve?? seems like I marred your party. Go on.

Patting yourselves on the back, eh? False sense of achieving something on an internet forum Raw nerve? Yes, sometimes I cannot stand arrogance and attitude.

Anindya: Are you saying expanding trade and other cultural activities for mutual benefit is mollycoddling ? What inane theories? Are you saying fences will solve all the problems?

somnath wrote:All "muslim countries" are like that, is it?

<snip>

All of this is leagues ahead of what we currently have vis a vis BD, and ahead of whatever we have even as "proposals"...

Thankfully, in the real world, policymakers dont act on the basis of such bizarre stereotypes...

The two Muslim countries of consequence to us are like that, and even the third Maldives is not much different.

I believe the "policymakers" and their supporters here, who are rushing head first into this merry-making have some really bizarre stereotypes - that ideology of the society plays no role.

Any other country would have been extremely grateful that we liberated them, but the rhetoric from Bangladesh, even after their Independence, has almost monotonously been either hostile or neutral, and any warmth, if at all, may be towards the West Bengalis, and not India as such. The Hindu population there has come down from 30% to just below 10% today. That is reality.

Anybody not willing to see that is himself indulging in escapism. Doing economics, and neglecting all other dynamics.

somnath wrote:

RajeshA wrote:You call the 25 million Bangladeshis living in India as Indian citizens? Hmmm...

Anyway, I meant the three points, using which we can make Bangladesh feel more vulnerable, more isolated, so that Bangladeshis themselves feel the need to get close to India, thus finally creating an atmosphere in which what you propose can function.

~25% of the bengali population is muslim, and not all of them are illegal immigrants..

Now if Bangladesh has only 9.xx % Hindus left, why the hell does West Bengal have 25% Muslims. It is a nice way to say "not all of them are illegal immigrants" rather than most of them are illegal immigrants.

Why don't your policymakers first think of throwing out these illegals, before showing their shameless faces, and saying that that is not important, and we better move on to other things.

somnath wrote:On your points, as I said, two are non-sequitor, the third, well its being tried...We are trying to build some road network in Myanmar onto Sittwe...But its a vastly suboptimal solution...And doesnt tackle the issue of connectivity with Calcutta...

One of course does not have to be a logistics expert to know the difference between a land route via Siliguri and one cutting through BD, enroute Agartala...

As I said, the two points you call non-sequitor are the building blocks of any opening to Bangladesh. Unless you can first show that there is an overwhelming support in Bangladesh for these ideas of transit and land swaps, those ideas are not going anywhere.

somnath wrote:About the prospect of BNP coming back to power, our attempts should be to build bridges across the divide...So that relations become largely, if not fully, agnostic to partisan politics...The only way to build that is by having clear, optical, visible carrots for BD...BD isnt Pak - even under a BNP dispensation...they have been looking to improve their lot economically seriously for the last decade now...A share of the "India pie", in an arrangement where the externalities are anyway mostly acruing to India, will create that constituency...

Of course, for people who believe in the policymaking of the fantasy world of imaginary sticks, they are welcome to their POVs!

Attempts should be made?!!!

What have you been doing all these years? sleeping? It is time to see reality. That those attempts have already failed. If the BNP dispensation is so caught on by the dreams of a share in the "India pie", why all this hostility, why all this anti-India propaganda.

Basically the "policymakers" are sitting on the ruins of their policies w.r.t. Pakistan and Bangladesh. They have shown zero vision in how to proceed to deal with our Muslim neighbors.

Now saying, we have to show carrots, blah, blah is a travesty of trust that Indian people have placed in the "policymakers" to deal with the situation, and out has come a West Bengal and Indian Northeast awash with illegal Bangladeshi immigrants, and two hostile neighbors threatening India with nuclear weapons, terrorism and demographic invasion.

The "policymakers" have been singularly incompetent and their policies have failed. And that is a historical fact.

SwamyG wrote:

ravi_ku wrote: Good, so as expected it was the platitudes. touched a raw nerve?? seems like I marred your party. Go on.

Patting yourselves on the back, eh? False sense of achieving something on an internet forum Raw nerve? Yes, sometimes I cannot stand arrogance and attitude.

In all your personal barbs and things, you are yet to spell out 1 direct and measurable benefits to India. In that post, all it was India should give that, India should give this, okay what will India get in return, arent the benefits expounded completely one sided??

Sorry, platitudes like cultural assosciations dont count. They are like the hindi cinema in Pakistan, turned off at the turn of a head and are a bargaining chip only for the gullible.

ravi_ku wrote:you are yet to spell out 1 direct and measurable benefits to India.

Done many times, if you cared to read:
1. The transit treaty is going to transform India's NE..
2. Ditto with the trade economy of NE with access to Chittagong port
3. Benefits of an FTA accrue substantially to India
4. Land swap formalises the border and enables civic services to be extended as per normal to areas that are inside India..

RajeshA wrote:Now if Bangladesh has only 9.xx % Hindus left, why the hell does West Bengal have 25% Muslims. It is a nice way to say "not all of them are illegal immigrants" rather than most of them are illegal immigrants.

Rest of your post is an ideological POV, which is fine, but on the facts...In 1951, muslims constituted ~20% of Bengal's population..Today, that % is ~25%..Some of it is illegal immigration, most of it is slower decline in fertility rates..In any case, most bengali muslims have been Indian citizens for 60 years...

POV: to ask them to prove their nationality is obnoxious..and above all, is a perfect recipe for disharmony within the country..

somnath wrote:POV: to ask them to prove their nationality is obnoxious..and above all, is a perfect recipe for disharmony within the country..

POV: to require Indians to accept illegal Muslim Bangladeshi immigrants, who partitioned the country, as Indian citizens is obnoxious..and above all, is a perfect recipe for disharmony within the country..

Why is it obnoxious to ask an individual to prove his nationality? Otherwise no Indian authority would be able to ask someone they suspect of being a Pakistani to identify himself.

somnath wrote:Rest of your post is an ideological POV

Talking about the utter incompetence of the policymakers to solve Pakistan and Bangladesh is simply ideological PoV! Ha-Ha!

A draft document on water sharing of the Teesta and Feni rivers has been prepared although the two countries "still differ on the proportion of Teesta water to be shared", the Daily Star reported in Dhaka, citing an unidentified senior Bangladesh Foreign Ministry official. Both countries had been asking for 55% of Teesta water during the lean period (October-May). Bangladesh finally asked for a 50% share, according to an official of the Bangladesh Water Resources Ministry.

Sharing of water from other rivers of concern, including the Manu, Muhuri, Khowai, Gumti, Dharla and Dudhkumar, was also to be discussed during Krishna's visit.

India has sought "15 road and railway routes" connecting Chittagong, on the eastern side of the Ganges Delta, and the main port for Bangladesh, and Mongla, a seaport on the western side of the delta in Bangladesh and close to Kolkata, the commercial capital of eastern India.

India also wants road and rail transit agreements for the border between eastern Bangladesh and the adjoining, nearly surrounded, Indian state of Tripura. In particular, New Delhi wants road transit through Ashuganj, north of Dakka, to Agartala, in Tripura; rail transit further north between Agartala and Akhuara, and, to the southeast, transit by road from Ramgarh (Khagracharri) in Bangladesh to Sabroom (Tripura).

Bangladesh should charge between $4 and $50 in transit fees for each tonne of goods depending on the route, the Bangladesh Tariff Commission has said. The rate would be equally applicable to vehicles from India, Nepal and Bhutan.

Bangladesh used last week's meetings to pursue its demands for duty-free access of 61 items to India.

The countries on July 7 signed an "Agreement on Promotion and Protection of Investments" to ensure "National treatment and Most Favored Nation treatment to be accorded by either country to investments of investors of the other country",

ravi_ku wrote: In all your personal barbs and things, you are yet to spell out 1 direct and measurable benefits to India. In that post, all it was India should give that, India should give this, okay what will India get in return, arent the benefits expounded completely one sided??

Sorry, platitudes like cultural assosciations dont count. They are like the hindi cinema in Pakistan, turned off at the turn of a head and are a bargaining chip only for the gullible.

Dude, apart from not posting regularly in this dhaaga, you not only have comprehension problems. So don't expect me to list out because you come frothing and foaming. You deserve the personal barbs, because you did not exhibit the common courtesy of asking politely. I never said India should "give that" or "give this".

Read Indian history and the role of trade. You get what you deserve.

Rajesh,

A quarantine could work for Pakistan because we do not have any community left except in eastern Sindh. OTOH, you have 15 million people in Bd that need our help. Same holds true for Tamils in Sri Lanka. Before we use a sledge hammer (and it is not evacuation of minorities as you suggest but division of land) let us try other ways to contain and hopefully eliminate the problem. It is not altruistic but naked self interest.

“Anindya: Are you saying expanding trade and other cultural activities for mutual benefit is mollycoddling ? What inane theories? Are you saying fences will solve all the problems?”

SwamyG – here’s what I’m saying specifically:
- Trade – absolutely, we should do it – after all we trade with countries that are openly hostile to us – so, why not with BD. But two points – (a) we need to recognize that trade is something we’ll have to use to improve income/capita in Bangladesh – after all, it’s one of the levers we can use to reduce the need to immigrate to India (b) In trade, let’s not give a mile to get an inch – make sure that trade agreements are balanced, not unilaterally preferential.

- River Water Sharing – we already are doing this, but should not get into the trap of doing away with appropriate exit clauses, based on changing conditions. No really long term water sharing deals – rework them every 10-15 years or so.

- Medical Visas – IIRC, we issue upwards of 400 such visas per day in BD – should continue doing so, and use a markup on medical charges to defray costs for poor Indians who cannot pay for medical care.

- Land exchange – do it, but NO unbalanced land exchanges – if they’re getting 10,000 acres extra somewhere – we should get back the same elsewhere

- Allowing simplified entry and work/student permits for Bangladeshis – disagree that this will work. Pakistani students in MSA in the US are some of the most virulent anti-americans, and they all want green cards. Bangladeshi students within India, never seem to give up their disdain for Hindus/Indians. Businessmen dont necessarily give up their ideological moorings, just because of money - so, restrict movements and entry - but dont make it impossible.

- Reset expectations, that Bangladesh will ever be like Canada is to US – there’s a clear ideological hatred towards Indians/Hindus; not only do clashes occur in border districts of India (as far south as Orissa), but squatter terror groups like MULTA, already are “fighting” for sovereignty. The thinning of the minority populations in BD has been documented numerous times. Reset our own expectations that they will ever like us – they wont, until we stop worshiping idols and don’t convert.

- Illegal Immigration – unfortunately, we’ve caused this to become really bad due to our own actions – but, here we must create a “stick” to encourage illegal Bangladeshis to leave India

There are different sets of starting assumptions – and two specific concerns – (a) carrots exist – but it is not at all clear that carrots will make BD hatred against Indians change or BD behave like a rational state and (b) sticks – even where they do exist, we seldom have been willing to use them and even an internal discussion of such levers seems to be of limited interest in broader media circles/think tanks within India.

Most people will agree that Bangladesh will have to be managed - the differences of opinion exist around what should be the goals of such a "manage-BD" strategy? what expectations can we realistically have? what are our priorities with regard to Hindus in Bangladesh, land exchanges, illegal immigrants in India etc?

We had known for a long time the Kongshal bootlickers to lie through their hat, and their musharrafs - but the problem is neither the person knows the dialects of the region, nor does he know much about the day-to-day dynamics of cross border interaction between WB-BD-Assam.

As usual this great pontiff of Kongshal bootlicking lies again - because the original discussion was based not on "Sarani" but "Saran". I had also repeatedly clearly pointed out that "sarani" is not used by urbanite in their daily discourse, but the great urban dhimmi - who obviously never stayed outside the "city" - and probably does not even know the city he was talking about in great depth - and onlee googled up "Rabindra-Sarani" [actually there are many more "saranis" in official nomenclature - but many are still dubbed by the colonial era names in common conversation - but of course those will not appear in google!] - claimed on that basis that "Sarani" was part of urban Kolkata dialect in daily use! It shows what rarified air this pontiff actually walks on - and then lies blatantly! "Kolkata saree" is actually a standard joke -freely enjoyed on both sides of the border, alluding to one of the two or three excuses given by ladies to visit Kol. Of course the great pontiff does not know that - to know these type of details, one has to be proficient on the local variations of the language, and be able to follow media in the regional language even if sitting on a distant island. But then again we cannot be too hard on someone brought up as a deracinated urban dhimmi whose first duty is to show infinite arrogance and look down upon anyone not belonging to his urban dhimmi cocoon - and the outside world does not exist!

This great pontiff, also used this googled up knowledge of Kolkata life - to mock at possible "rural origins" of statements by posters, and showed himself up as the typical deracinated urban dhimmi - who hates his birth culture, or the majority sharing his birth culture - and looks down upon anything supposedly not coming from the rootless dhimmi urban existence of his growing up - which neither knows his roots, nor his language, nor the varied cultural spectrum that makes up the region of his ancestors. That lack of knowledge, and extreme arrogance shows up continuously in post after post.

The looniness of this source of posting has a particular style - it will ignore all uncomfortable facts - like the long history of looniness of the Kongshal swimming with the waves, whose policies he blindly supports and fulminates if protested - and whose Congress-Left looniness started with the Loony-Liaquat Pact. Even when pointed out how his loony gurus deliberately took an anti-Bengali-Hindu stance, showed loudly their looniness in complete lack of knowledge of the gorund realities of Islamism in East-Pak/BD - and how all their loony pontifications proved a lie and a fraud, the Congress-dynastic bootlicking mentality simply bypasses it.

Even when pointed out the reality of the history of territorial exchanges - how his loony gurus lied through their noses about the safety of the Hindus and the gentleness of the Islamists, the looniness of Congress-bootlicking still wants to continue the "thug" role of his loony gurus by forcing the whatever remains of the Hindus in BD - even in the enclaves - to suffer further.

Looniness of the Congress-Left mentality will criminally ignore - or perhaps it is the inherent thug nature - the fact that even if there are Muslims in Indian enclaves within BD, these Muslims will not be tortured/raped/looted/abducted/land-alienated by BD Islamists in the same way that any remaining Hindus will be.

The equation will be simple - Hindus in such enclaves will either have to choose to migrate to India, and they will be forced to do a distress sell/give up valuables, and will face a very uncertain future in India - given the extreme "kindness" shown by Loony-gurus of the pontiff. If they remain, they will be subject to periodic plucking of fruits - women, any wealth they accumulate, any remaining land or valuables, or forced to convert.

However the Muslims from such enclaves are in a win-win situation. If they remain in BD they do not face any significant loss. If they come to India they will have their faith-brethren who in turn have been empowered by the loony-gurus of the pontiff to rely on. In any case the border is extremely porous for Muslims, but not so much so for Hindus because on the WB and Assam side - the loony gurus of the pontiff have helped to create a buffer Muslim zone.

Muslims are possibly majority in enclaves on both sides, [census of a fluid population is always a guesswork] and it is unlikely that Muslims in BD enclaves on Indian side will choose to formally migrate to BD - they can go back and forth whenever they wish any way - and they stand to gain more both in terms of material resources as well as Islamism - from the protection of Islamophile loonies of the congress-left whose agenda is being pushed here so hard!

It is interesting to see the trade angle pushed up again. Yes India used trade to influence other cultures! True very true! One of the most used golden example used to buttress this is the so-called South-East Asia's golden age of Indian "influence". We influenced them so much in "trade" that the "traders" promptly switched cultural and political and military and religious and civilizational allegiance to another theology/culture/ethnicity/language that has contribued immensely to India's suffering - as soon as they saw benefit in doing so!

Kerala - God's own country is another superb example of influence on civilizations by "trade" from Indian side - it is the influence to clear the way for "other' and completely hostile influences to muscle itself in and force previous Indic ones out. Or we can also look at it as passing the mercantile mentality of trade-is-the-supreme-god and everything-has-a-monetary-price and potential-for-profit doctrine as the Indic "contribution" to world philosophy. .

Bengal was a great one for trade, produced exactly the same doctrine. Gujarat kings traded and traded, oh how they traded - and fell flat before Ulugh Khan! Poor traders, merchant princes and Islamophile trade-supremacy kings - they could not manage the monetary price that could buy off the peaceful Muslim traders that made up Ulugh khans trade embassy!

Anindya: I supported trade & I am glad we are on the same page on this one. I have not suggested anything on land exchange, neither anything on what should be or should not be done with illegals. I opined fences will not do the trick. When I imply we have to make them like us & not hate us, it does not mean we have to go boot licking their legs. Both India and BD do not have to bend over backwards. But having said that, there the equations are never going to be simple considering how we are a large country and BD, a smaller country, is landlocked. They will nourish a takleef, and that will reduce gradually as they look towards us with a degree of love/respect. Will that happen? It is important that our policies and actions enable such an attitude in the future.

So this is perhaps the main driving interest in "absorbing" the Bangladeshi "enclaves"? In the absence of proper regular sequential census - and the fluid population - we can never know how the demographics have really changed or not.

But this piece is also an indicator of what it will mean for the demographic equation at the border, and what is really aimed for.

http://www.livemint.com/2011/04/1722250 ... laves.html

Poathurkuthi (a Bangladeshi enclave) : Maimana Khatun, 45, continues to use her maiden name because she is an Indian by birth and doesn’t want her nationality to be undermined by her marriage to a trader in a Bangladeshi enclave.

Backed by people who live in Bangladeshi enclaves, she is contesting the assembly election in West Bengal as an independent candidate from the Dinhata constituency in Cooch Behar district, where she was born.

Polling in her constituency will be held on Monday in the first phase of elections in the state, and at least 14,000 voters in Dinhata live in Bangladeshi enclaves.

Although they don’t qualify for electoral photo identity cards, or Epics, in the first place, they have been voting in India for years, thanks largely to the mainstream political parties who helped them get their names included in the electoral rolls with fictitious addresses.

But that’s about all they have received from the Indian government.

There are some 92 Bangladeshi enclaves in India, and 106 Indian enclaves in Bangladesh, almost all located along the India-Bangladesh border. The enclaves in India are situated mostly in Cooch Behar and Jalpaiguri districts in the northern part of the state.

Completely surrounded by foreign territory, these enclaves, or chhitmahal in the local language, were parts of the erstwhile estates of the royal families of Cooch Behar and Rangpur.During partition, Cooch Behar became a part of India, while Rangpur joined East Pakistan, which became Bangladesh in 1971.

For years, these “extra votes” from the chhitmahal went to the Left Front . But it appears that in the 2006 assembly election, they went the other way, helping the Trinamool Congress candidate Ashok Mandal beat the Forward Bloc’s Udayan Guha after two successive defeats.

Both the Forward Bloc, which is part of the ruling Left Front, and the Trinamool Congress—the state’s main opposition party—have been promising to change the lives of the people in the chhitmahal with power connections to every home and civic infrastructure such as roads and drinking water.

But they have not been able to deliver on promises.

Being foreign territory, it is virtually impossible for Indian governments—the state or the Centre—to spend money on the Bangladeshi enclaves.

Disenchanted with the mainstream political parties, people from the enclaves decided to field their own candidate this year—Khatun, who is the first person from a Bangladeshi enclave to ever contest an assembly election in India.

It is unlikely that she is going to win the election. She can only count on the 14,000 votes from the chhitmahal, says Diptiman Sengupta, convenor of Bharat-Bangladesh Enclave Exchange Co-ordination Committee, a pressure group pushing Dhaka and Delhi to swap the enclaves.

But she could yet be the “key deciding factor” in the three-way contest at Dinhata, where Mandal, the winner from 2006, is contesting as an independent candidate against his old rival, the Forward Bloc’s Guha and Amiya Sarkar of the Nationalist Congress Party (NCP), an ally of the the Trinamool Congress.

By taking away these 14,000 votes from all three candidates, Khatun hopes to remind the mainstream political parties of their presence, and more importantly, draw their attention to the plight of the 150,000-odd people who live in the Bangladeshi enclaves.

If these 14,000 votes from the enclaves went en bloc to one of these three candidates, he would win comfortably, according to Khatun, who says she was intimidated by all the political parties in the fray when she filed her nomination to contest the election.

The aim eventually is to pressure Delhi to reopen talks with Dhaka on swapping these isolated territories, says Sengupta. “That is the only solution.”

I had pointed out long ago that the islamists will switch loyalty from regime to regime - as they continue to extract concessions from each regime.

This is what is the ultimate aim - increase their numbers to an extent that makes them unstoppable in the numbers game. The Islamophiles among us first will pretend normal p-secism - oh-we-onlee-look-at-them-as-humans and we must guarantee protection of the right to increase. This was how the Islamophile kings of north, west and south of India definitely justified their action when Islamics were still across the "border". Oh-we-should increase our trading partnership and mutual interdependence onlee - in time our culture will influence them and we will have peaceful coexistence onlee.

The aim is to allow the growth to such an extent so that Islamics can then reveal their real imperialist genocidic agenda. Then the descendants of these p-secs will claim - oh-they-are-part-of-reality onlee - look at their numbers onlee - we cannot ignore them can we - we must give in to what they demand - otherwise there will be bloodshed onlee - propsperity will go down because external investments will not come in onlee. So it is a good plan - a certain number of generations will protect and foster the growth in numbers - and their descendants will play fait-accompli.

Trade by river

The Ashuganj river port has been declared port of call under the Bangladesh-India protocol on inland water transport and trade. The protocol allows India to carry bulk goods to Akhaura border through the Ashuganj river port. The sources said the Indian businessmen are now waiting to carry rice, wheat and bitumen through waterways to Tripura under transshipment facility. In this case the goods carriers will pay duty to Bangladesh for using the port.

Months back, India transported over dimensional consignments (ODCs) through the Ashuganj river port to establish a power plant in Tripura state. Those were heavy consignments compared to the bulk goods to be carried through it. Officials said the NBR at that time announced duty procedure for the ODC movement but that is not applicable for the bulk goods to be carried through the land port. A separate duty structure and procedure has to be announced first before allowing bulk goods to be transported from India, they added.

A shipping ministry official, seeking anonymity, told the FE that there was no warehouse facility at the Ashuganj port for carrying goods in open cargo. "So, the infrastructural facilities have to be made available before the start of transshipment through the river port."

Sources said some 10 million tonnes of goods can be carried from India through the port once the transshipment facility is open for bulk goods carrying.

Hmm...So "kolkata sarees" is a joke..Guess "rabindrasangeet" is also a joke, considering they were mentiojed in the same breath as representatives of "bengali" culture!

Supratik wrote:Rajesh,

A quarantine could work for Pakistan because we do not have any community left except in eastern Sindh. OTOH, you have 15 million people in Bd that need our help. Same holds true for Tamils in Sri Lanka. Before we use a sledge hammer (and it is not evacuation of minorities as you suggest but division of land) let us try other ways to contain and hopefully eliminate the problem. It is not altruistic but naked self interest.

Supratik ji,

I presume you mean Hindus and Buddhists, when you say 15 million need our help.

This is going a bit into philosophical discourse, so pardon me, should it sound sermonizing. It is simply to state my position.

There are a few sayings -
- God helps those, who help themselves!
- Don't give them fish, teach them how to fish!

And I think, there is some truth to it!

The best help one can give the 15million is to think differently. At the social level, with two incompatible ideologies sharing physical space, a minority needs to develop a very very hard edge to it, otherwise it will go down through erosion.

The Hindus and Buddhists live in a very intimidating environment, and they have to attain both a mental set-up as well as physical set-up to withstand this pressure. Dhimmitude is a well though out strategy by Islam. First demand the other community to pay jiziya to it. That establishes a relationship based on ruler and ruled. Then demand respect and deference. And here comes pervasive intimidation. What this does is, it breaks down a community's barrier slowly! Intimidation trains the others to always give in a little, until one gets used to the habit of giving in. The confiscation of Hindu lands and unwillingness to return them, can be considered a form of jiziya. Frequent attacks on Hindus is intimidation. Nobody in Islam is really going to tell the offender, that he did something wrong, if some Hindu girl gets raped or kidnapped, simply because the ulema are also of the view that this intimidation is an intrinsic part of the doctrine. They are the ones teaching their Talibs to be intimidating.

From the state as well, the Hindus will not get their lands back through pleading, but only if the establishment worries that if it is not done, there will be serious consequences. The Awami League too will not give the land, because it knows that the Hindu votes have nowhere else to go.

More than ever, Hindus and Buddhists in Bangladesh need mental fortitude. Since there is nothing in the State with which they can identify, and it can't be just the language and a few legacy customs, because the other community also shares them; Hindus and Buddhists should strengthen their identity around other institutions - temples, deras, whatever. Since it is not that common, that Hindus send their children for learning about their customs, their dogma at a young age or even later, the bond to the identity remains weak and remains prone to head-hunting. So one would need to strengthen that bond, and that means the Hindu community would have to start sending their kids much earlier to dharmic education, and instill a strong pride in them for things Hindu.

This propensity nowadays among the Bangladeshi Hindus to say Bangladesh is their country and they are loyal to it, even if it in enmity with India is really a useless stand. A very public stand on this may give the Bangladeshi Hindus some personal comfort in his steady downfall and he may get a few pats on the back and in his view some free space to retain his faith, but with time he too will be forced to make concessions on his religion as well. So it is temporary relief, but always a concession in the medium term.

Physical fortitude is of equal importance for that gives one some confidence in one's stand. And anything that contributes to it should be welcome - be it strength of the body or be it strength of fighting skills or be it strength of information/intelligence or be it strength of the pack. Just like Muslims tend to form local gangs, it is very important that Hindu kids too learn the concept of strength in numbers. At the national level, Hindus may be a minority, but at the local level they can very well form groups and gangs - Kids who train together (fitness training, or some martial arts, or even combat training), kids who hang out together, kids who live their faith together and kids who defend themselves together.

Any form of intimidation from the Bangladeshi Muslims needs to be rejected with force. They hit you, you hit back. They misbehave with your women, you break their necks. They kidnap your women, you burn up their shops. They burn your shops, you bomb their mosques. They burn your temples, you burn a whole neighborhood. They come at you, you finish them off.

Now most Hindus would just say, what is this? Eye for an eye, would make the whole world blind. The good thing is a blind man cannot attack others (unless one is called DareDevil), but a blind man can certainly pray in peace.

Every single Bangladeshi Hindu and Buddhist should undergo extensive physical fitness training, martial arts training, and if I may say even combat training. Even the women. Every Bangladeshi Hindu and Buddhist should have a close relationship with his/her temple.

The most important part is for the Hindus to know exactly where to counter-strike and when to counter-strike. It is important to know the exact Islamist and Muslim Chauvinist networks in their localities, and this requires intelligence and HUMINT.

***************

Coming back to civilization, I have one suggestion:

As a form of asylum, India should give Hindus and Buddhists a multiple entry visa to India, giving them a leg-up in trade with India, education in India, training in India (even military training), etc. And basically I don't mind India having a good relationship with Bangladesh - trade, diplomatic, even military cooperation.

But we should never become dependent on them for anything, either transit or immigration, or otherwise. He have to find alternate ways to reach our Northeast - through better transport infrastructure through Siliguri Corridor, from Myanmar.

RajeshAji,

We are increasingly moving to the Alawite line.....

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ional-flag

Use of vulnerable links in a nation state, like presence of an ostensibly "oppressed" community, is fair game in diplomatic relations...But major powers do it with finesse and subtlty...India too can use the story of "hindu oppression" in BD as a lever to twist...But it cannot be done in a bull in a china shop mould - hectoring, threatening, bombing, asking 25 million Indians to prove their citizenship..Large powers work these "vulnerabilities" alongside large carrots to score strategic goals...

Currently, our stakes in BD are extremely low - they dont depend on us for a critical resource, not for their exports (just the opposite), not for credit...Those stakes need to be built, and then these vulnerabilities can also be exploited...

somnath wrote:Use of vulnerable links in a nation state, like presence of an ostensibly "oppressed" community, is fair game in diplomatic relations...But major powers do it with finesse and subtlty...India too can use the story of "hindu oppression" in BD as a lever to twist...<snip> Large powers work these "vulnerabilities" alongside large carrots to score strategic goals...

For example by funding certain armed groups to cause political turmoil, by promoting secessionist tendencies in rivals, by providing certain "human rights groups" with a platform and a sanctuary to express their views, by broadcasting seditious messages across the border, etc. etc.

"hindu oppression"? Perhaps the term is "oppression of Hindus"! However using it as a lever is a art way beyond the capabilities of the current "policymakers"! Even if they wanted, they would not know how to do it. Needling the other country in some private discussions among the "policymakers"? Who is going to hear? Do these policymakers even know what a lever is?

Most importantly, the Hindu and Buddhist minority is not some football to be played between the two countries. That is demeaning to the community, using them as a mere pawn, only for the purpose of some diplomatic "advantage", which the current "policymakers" would not even know how to extract in the first place.

somnath wrote:But it cannot be done in a bull in a china shop mould - hectoring, threatening, bombing.

Those prescriptions were for Bangladeshi Hindus and Buddhists. Not for India. Don't mix up the two.

somnath wrote:asking 25 million Indians to prove their citizenship..

How is that relevant to how India should deal with Bangladesh? If the "policymakers" had been not so incompetent, we would not have have to make genuine West Bengali Muslims, who are Indian citizens, go through these background checks.

Since "policymakers" did not do their national duty properly in the last 6 decades, we have come to a stage, where we might have to cause this inconvenience to some of our own people, regrettable as it may be, in order to separate the wheat from the chaff, which often involves shaking up the wheat as well.

somnath wrote:Currently, our stakes in BD are extremely low - they dont depend on us for a critical resource, not for their exports (just the opposite), not for credit...Those stakes need to be built, and then these vulnerabilities can also be exploited...

Whatever economic relationships we make with Bangladesh, they should be immune to political blackmail. That means our investments in Bangladesh should not be such, that if they are rendered inaccessible, it has some serious effect on our economy. As such transit is a bad investment, it being dependent on the political vagaries of our relationship.

Nothing wrong with increasing trade, giving lines of credit, etc.

Samudragupta wrote:RajeshAji,

We are increasingly moving to the Alawite line.....

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ional-flag

I read that just yesterday!

Yes, there are some models available:

1. Bangladeshi Hindus and Buddhists are given asylum in India, and they can go anywhere in India.
2. Bangladeshi Hindus and Buddhists are given asylum in India, and they are settled there where there is a large concentration of illegal Bangladeshi immigrants in India, in order to dilute their power - both militant and political.
3. Bangladeshi Hindus and Buddhists move to Rakhine State in Myanmar, increasing Indian influence there, speaking conservatively.
4. Bangladeshi Hindus and Buddhists create a "Bir Banga Republic" in the Chittagong Hills Tract.
5. Bangladeshi Hindus and Buddhists minority militarize themselves completely and take control over whole of Bangladesh a lá Alawites in Syria.

somnath wrote:Use of vulnerable links in a nation state, like presence of an ostensibly "oppressed" community, is fair game in diplomatic relations...But major powers do it with finesse and subtlty...

Agree with you. The way to do this is to first build up an objective case on the oppression, increasingly publicize it until it becomes a major issue - and then use the objective data to pressure governments and societies in the right direction.

For example, India needs to come out with her own report on religious freedom by country - the equivalent of the US version. In this, India needs to consistently take a stand that certain or all Christian and Muslim sects don't measure up to India's standard of pluralism and are exclusivist in their orientation by claiming other Gods as False....Of course the incidences of violence and religion-related crimes also needs to be catalogued. A ranking of countries based on prevalence of such extremist sects would be useful. This annual report needs to be publicized widely first by the Indian media and thereupon through global media.