India-China News and Discussion

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 17 Sep 2009 09:04

RamaY you talk about India's raise in geo-politics & world economy

Tell me which country in the world can dream to be a super power without having a solid Industrial base or independence on military equipment and matters of national security. The Chinese in that respect are light years ahead of us....doesn't matter if its communism or subversion of freedom and human rights. I am not saying that we vote in the China friendly commies into power but, it is time for introspection and self realization of the ground realities.

We as Indians do hold certain advantages but, are not benefiting from them. We haven't learnt any lessons from history and keep running around in circles wrt Pakistan and China. The chinese perception is that we are a pacifist nation who despite umpteen number of provocations by Pakis have taken no tough action besides sharing rag tag documents of proof. Add to that the media frenzy on the insecurity raised by our own scientists and Naval admirals on the state of affairs of our instruments of national security....do u think they have anything to fear from our political leadership? I hope I am proven wrong....

RamaY · Post by **RamaY** » 17 Sep 2009 09:23

Anishns-ji

completly agree with your opinion.

IMO before India becomes a super power it must do the following-

1. Rewrite Indian history from Indic perspective; good, bad, and ugly as is. Truth always rules.
2. Develop a nationalistic thought leadership that has a single mission. Protect and expand Indic world view.
3. Develop an environmentally conscious military-industrial base
4. Absolute rule of law (whatever civil and criminal code is defined to suite Indic needs)
5. Ansolute security/self-reliance w.r.t food, health, education and energy.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 17 Sep 2009 09:43

http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general/2 ... r-cia.html

Chinese claim to Tawang

Jawaharlal Nehru’s “Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai” dictum which was Indian diplomacy’s buzz word in the fifties, failed to stop the 1962 war. And now, forty-five years after the People’s Liberation Army overran Arunachal Pradesh, China is claiming not only Tawang but the whole of this North-Eastern State. The PLA retreated on its own in 1962 after reaching close to Tezpur in Assam, but has not been able to take its eyes off Arunachal Pradesh. Beijing claims 90,000 sq. km of Indian territory in the eastern sector as historically Tibet’s as its own. Indian defence sources say Chinese incursions in Upper Subansiri district have taken place more than 100 times between 1998 and 2000, though the Indian Army officially denies it.
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26712 (1962 India-China border war : CIA documents suggest Beijing’s treachery)

The Chinese psychological game was there in 1962 and it continues. In the opening ceremony 9of the 1982 Asian Games in New Delhi, a Chinese news agency criticized the inclusion of a lion dance of Arunachal in the cultural programme which Chinese claimed was theirs. In 1984, the Chinese denied visa to the then Arunachal Assembly Speaker, T.L. Rajkumar. He ultimately received a loose visa but the Chinese authorities refused to put the immigration stamp on it. Three IAS officers of Arunachal were also denied visa.

Yet, the people of Tawang rebuff China and say they are Indians. A HINDUSTAN TIMES correspondent visited Tawang to feel the pulse of the people there and reports that the people of this picturesque north-western Arunachal Pradesh regard themselves as “Indian” – in body and soul. “Not a soul in Tawang will ever support China. We are an inalienable part of India and the Indian society”, says Sangay Jampi, Secretary of Tawang’s famed Galden Namgyal Lhatsa monastery. The 400-year-old shrine wields tremendous influence on the lives of the local people who pay taxes for its upkeep.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 17 Sep 2009 10:34

Acharyaji....maybe this is truth or maybe it is propoganda.....Doesn't matter!!!

This needs to be screamed from the mountain tops in all the newspapers and TV channels in India.....rather than stupid reports about why Dhoni and some members of the cricket team were shopping in SL instead of practicing on the eve of the final in Colombo!

Acharya wrote:
http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general/2 ... r-cia.html

Chinese claim to Tawang

Jawaharlal Nehru’s “Hindi-Chini Bhai-Bhai” dictum which was Indian diplomacy’s buzz word in the fifties, failed to stop the 1962 war. And now, forty-five years after the People’s Liberation Army overran Arunachal Pradesh, China is claiming not only Tawang but the whole of this North-Eastern State. The PLA retreated on its own in 1962 after reaching close to Tezpur in Assam, but has not been able to take its eyes off Arunachal Pradesh. Beijing claims 90,000 sq. km of Indian territory in the eastern sector as historically Tibet’s as its own. Indian defence sources say Chinese incursions in Upper Subansiri district have taken place more than 100 times between 1998 and 2000, though the Indian Army officially denies it.
Source:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=26712 (1962 India-China border war : CIA documents suggest Beijing’s treachery)

The Chinese psychological game was there in 1962 and it continues. In the opening ceremony 9of the 1982 Asian Games in New Delhi, a Chinese news agency criticized the inclusion of a lion dance of Arunachal in the cultural programme which Chinese claimed was theirs. In 1984, the Chinese denied visa to the then Arunachal Assembly Speaker, T.L. Rajkumar. He ultimately received a loose visa but the Chinese authorities refused to put the immigration stamp on it. Three IAS officers of Arunachal were also denied visa.

Yet, the people of Tawang rebuff China and say they are Indians. A HINDUSTAN TIMES correspondent visited Tawang to feel the pulse of the people there and reports that the people of this picturesque north-western Arunachal Pradesh regard themselves as “Indian” – in body and soul. “Not a soul in Tawang will ever support China. We are an inalienable part of India and the Indian society”, says Sangay Jampi, Secretary of Tawang’s famed Galden Namgyal Lhatsa monastery. The 400-year-old shrine wields tremendous influence on the lives of the local people who pay taxes for its upkeep.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 17 Sep 2009 19:53

@sanku
This is continuation of our discussion from china military thread!

I am really sorry for being unclear.

i just wanted to convey:

1) I was comparing india's stand in pre 1962 period and today. and I believe steps taken by JLN were more courageous. It is wrong to blame JLN for every thing.
2) I used to blv china was the aggressor, but instead the wikipedia article says it was india.

Also.. i am continuing this discussion in india china thread. A copy of this post will be posted there as well. I request you to please carry on this discussion. I need to learn more history before i learn present.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Sep 2009 20:38

animesharma wrote:@sanku
This is continuation of our discussion from china military thread!
I am really sorry for being unclear.

i just wanted to convey:

1) I was comparing india's stand in pre 1962 period and today. and I believe steps taken by JLN were more courageous. It is wrong to blame JLN for every thing.
2) I used to blv china was the aggressor, but instead the wikipedia article says it was india.

Also.. i am continuing this discussion in india china thread. A copy of this post will be posted there as well. I request you to please carry on this discussion. I need to learn more history before i learn present.

Animesh, a request, BRF does not use SMS language, we use full correct English here, please do keep that in mind.

1) I do not know what you mean by JLN were more courageous, more compared to what, and in what way? As many have said he was just an short sighted ***** without any real understanding of the world.

2) India was NOT the aggressor, what India did was after sleeping for 12 years, suddenly try and claim the area which was according to India was always under India. Sort of like after India discovered that Pakis were sneaking in Siachen and Kargil, sent in the army to flush them out.

Unfortunately the Chinese were not Pakistani's

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 17 Sep 2009 22:55

Myth and reality in India-China relations
India and China are neighbours — each with a billion-plus population, together accounting for 38 per cent of the world’s population, with the fastest GDP growth rates for large economies, with China already (in PPP terms) the world’s second largest economy and India set to become the third largest in the intermediate future. How the two big neighbours bond together in the future is crucial for global order. Further, how they interact with the United States will determine the international trends of the foreseeable future.

For at least two millennia, and until about 300 years ago, these two countries were considered by the then prevailing criteria as the most developed in the world, accounting for about 50 per cent of the world’s GDP. However, owing to similar experiences with foreign aggression, imperialism, and internal orthodoxy, India and China underwent a two-century long decline whereby by the mid-20th century, they became the world’s poorest nations.

Despite being neighbours and having flourishing economies over centuries, the two nations until 1962 neither ever went to war, nor took advantage of local civil wars. This is a most extraordinary and unparalleled experience of neighbourly peace in world civilisational history. Contrast this with what happened in Europe, West Asia, and North Africa.

The two peoples traded goods, exchanged visitors, borrowed ideas, and generally respected each other at the ruler and ruled levels — until foreign invasions and imperialism cut off normal interactions and relations became frozen. They were revived only in 1950, but fizzled out by 1959. War followed in 1962, for the first time in millennia.

It took a lot of effort thereafter to restore some modicum of good relations, in which this writer, with the encouragement of the Sankaracharya of Kanchi Mutt, Sri Chandrashekharendra Saraswati, played some shaping role.

When the Janata Party government came to power in 1977, Prime Minister Morarji Desai asked me to go to China to explore the situation and see if normalisation of relations would be possible. He chose me to go first, despite peer jealousies and objections in the party, because I knew Mandarin, had researched and taught courses (at Harvard) on China, and also because, as Morarji told me, I viewed China, “without wearing rose-tinted glasses.”

My initiative in September 1978 produced enough of a thaw for Morarjibhai to clear the way for External Affairs Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee to make a trip in February 1979, the first by any Indian Minister since 1960. But the outcome of the visit was, alas, scuttled by mishandling the fallout of the Sino-Vietnam war that was launched when he was there, and Mr. Vajpayee had to cut short his stay in China.

In 1981, Prime Minister Indira Gandhi sent my good friend and External Affairs Minister, P.V. Narasimha Rao, to request me to visit China again, and in a back-channel format obtain some clarifications about China’s attitude to the re-opening of relations with India, as also its intentions about some extremist leaders of the All Assam Students Union (AASU) who were planning to visit China clandestinely to obtain weapons.

In April 1981, I did visit Beijing and was received by Deng Xiaoping. It was during that meeting that he announced that Foreign Minister Huang Hua would go to India, and that China was open to a negotiated settlement on the Sino-Indian border dispute.

Border delineation discussions began thereafter and are still continuing on preliminaries! Deng Xiaoping conceded my demand, then pending for three years, for re-opening the Kailash-Manasarovar route in Tibet but only for Hindu pilgrims (China’s condition). I led the first delegation of 20 pilgrims in the freezing cold weather of September 1981, and since then Hindu pilgrims in batches have continued to go to Kailash-Manasarovar without any hitch till today.

In December 1988, Prime Minister Rajiv Gandhi finally cut the Gordian knot in his wide-ranging talks with Deng Xiaoping by declaring that the Sino-Indian border was, in parts undemarcated and in parts disputed, thereby putting on hold (although not undoing) the consequences of the 1962 Parliament Resolution. Undoing, however, can be done only by a new Resolution in Parliament for which the time will come if there is a satisfactory end to the border dispute.

After this landmark visit, Prime Ministers Narasimha Rao and Deve Gowda contributed by signing agreements for various confidence-building measures. In 2003, as Prime Minister, Mr. Vajpayee visited China and reiterated India’s commitment to regarding Tibet as an inalienable part of China.

That commitment had already been made by Jawaharlal Nehru, and formalised in a treaty in 1954. Was the reiteration to build further confidence in the relations? I am not sure since I have not been able yet to fathom it. But Prime Minister Vajpayee’s reiteration means now (his then Cabinet Minister Arun Shourie’s recent polemics notwithstanding) that in India there is bilateral political commitment to regard Tibet as a part of China. It would require an audacious break with the past or an extraordinary paradigm-changing event to alter that reality.

Since 2007, relations between India and China have begun to cool. Outside government, but in the penumbra of officialdom, there is now a developing hysteria about our heading for war with China, or more precisely, about China planning to attack India. This hysteria mystery needs to be unravelled because neither can we be complacent about China’s capacity to inflict damage on us, nor should we have a fevered imagination about China’s alleged evil intentions to harm us.

Both dimensions of our attitude to China are dangerous. As a China watcher of long standing, I am curious about how this huge bilateral consensus, built over three decades, on the desirability or possibility of good relations with China, is weakening so fast. Who are the catalysts in this, what are the dynamics behind this change of this attitude, and how will it end? Is this projected Chinese threat real or just a myth?

We need to separate the myths and realities in our relations with China. Some myths are frightening and need to be exploded. Some realities are potentially so dangerous that we can ignore them only at our peril.

The most frightening myth in currency today is that China and Pakistan will co-ordinate an invasion of India, and balkanise the nation, or at least destroy our economy. This is expected no later than 2012, as precise as that! This we are hearing in some think tanks of Delhi populated by former officials of the government.

This mythical scenario is bogus because, first, China and the rest of the world learnt by the events of 1962, and by subsequent unconnected events, that if anything, the Indian people unite and India nationally consolidates when attacked from abroad. This Chanakya had noted as the concept of Chakravartin. Secondly, with Tibet and Sinkiang simmering, attacking India is not a one-way street or a picnic. On our borders and contiguous areas, moreover, the Indian Air Force is far superior while the terrain on our side of the border provides a much shorter and friendlier supply chain. China’s is very long and through more hostile terrain. Invasion therefore cannot be in the mind of the rational Chinese strategist. Most of these inflamed reports and the surrounding hysteria in India is because the propagators have been brought up on the British Imperialist version of our history, which is that India is a sitting duck for anyone who wants to invade the country.

The most potentially dangerous reality of the Sino-Indian relation today is India’s abdication of vital national interests for the domestic political survival of ruling coalitions. To counter China, some in India are advocating strategic bonding with the U.S. This is not in our national interest because the U.S. will then make us another Australia or Japan, a concubine, so to speak. The bottom line in U.S.-China relations at present is that China has a veto over U.S. actions in South Asia. Unless we can change that bottom line, the U.S. partnership is not going to mitigate our hysteria about China. In the meantime, China has us ringed in like a circus lion. It does not need to invade us when we are in such a state of impotence.

Shorn of the myths, the realistic and appropriate policy course for India is to match Chinese military capacity by concrete action (for example, spending 7 per cent of GDP on defence) and be conciliatory in policy, attitude, and words. Or to put it bluntly, take full care of national security but work for peace and good neighbourliness. At present we are doing precisely the opposite.

(The author is a Harvard-trained economist and China scholar and has made significant contributions to promoting India-China relations since 1978. He is a former Union Law Minister.)

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 17 Sep 2009 23:14

shravan wrote:Myth and reality in India-China relations

Shorn of the myths, the realistic and appropriate policy course for India is to match Chinese military capacity by concrete action (for example, spending 7 per cent of GDP on defence) and be conciliatory in policy, attitude, and words. Or to put it bluntly, take full care of national security but work for peace and good neighbourliness. At present we are doing precisely the opposite.

Or repeating the exact same steps as in 62, right upto running into Uncle's arms crying mommy because the great Chachaji thought that all India needed was a police force.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 17 Sep 2009 23:25

I think, in their hurry to secure the economic sources for the immediate future, the Anglo-Saxon is hurrying too much. So much so that it is failing to realize that by egging China on, to create pressure points on India to fall in line (concede to TSP, allow weakening of military advantages by scuttling or delaying indigenous capacity building, etc), it is actually creating problems for itself.

Any moves by TSP and China on Indian soil is going to destroy the best bet they can have for themselves - a GOI that has consistently shown that it will not undertake aggressive and retaliatory policies. If GOI's like that led by the current regime stay on when India is forced to retreat, the break with Indian masses occurs. In times of crisis even the most peaceful of societies and the most opportunist of elites usually go for ruthless and aggressive leaders to survive - even if they had done their best before to undermine the fighting capacity of their own societies.

Any aggressive action by TSP or PRC destroys the most favourable conditions for TSP+PRC and their Anglo-Saxon backers. Nukes, or not, slaughter or not, loss of territory or not, this is the single most important factor that can eventually unravel all Anglo-Saxon calculations. This is something I guess is not even in their calculations.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Sep 2009 23:50

Cross posting
Arunachal villagers: 'Presently Chinese are in our village'

Changla Gaon (Arunachal Prades:

Villagers living along the India-China border in Arunachal Pradesh said that Chinese incursions were a result of lack of border demarcation.

"They (Chinese troops) come here and Indian government is helpless…we have protection from Indian government but since the areas are not demarcated therefore it is difficult to make out," said Soya Ama, a resident of Changla Gaon village in Anjaw district of the state.

Apprehending more Chinese incursions, another villager appealed to Indian government to advance troops from their village to borders.

"We appeal to Indian government and army that they should advance towards border from our locality. Presently they are in our village and we face lot of problem because of that. We face lot of threat from China," said Anjita Kri, another resident.

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 18 Sep 2009 09:11

China strikes back on Arunachal - ADB Loan

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 18 Sep 2009 13:06

http://www.dailypioneer.com/202821/Hidd ... tiger.html

Hidden dragon,crouching tiger

Ashok K Mehta

While the Chinese have developed infrastructure and military capacity to break the status quo in the east, India has allowed the asymmetries in deterrence to grow and lost the cutting edge to retake Aksai Chin. With the military and strategic balance in favour of PLA, China will further delay any border settlement till it can secure concessions in Arunachal Pradesh, at the very least Tawang, which will give it the equivalent of another Chumbi Valley.

Really do not understand why they let the asymmetries grow. Conventional weapons are something that the country can afford. There was a report by Ajai Shukla on how the Chinese had better boats than the Indians on one of the lakes along the border.

If India gets a thumping this time from the PLA, they will have only themselves to blame.

ashish raval · Post by **ashish raval** » 18 Sep 2009 13:23

why dont India give up one china policy and opposse any loan projects in Tibet or Xingjiang ?

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 18 Sep 2009 13:25

ashish raval wrote:why dont India give up one china policy and opposse any loan projects in Tibet or Xingjiang ?

Because it lacks clout to do so.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Sep 2009 17:18

There have been an increasing number of veteran military men,diplomats,journos and even politicos like Sub.Swamy,who speaks mandarin,on the developing situ.Their collctive comment appears to be "don't rock the boat" at this time and allow China to have the figleaf of an excuse to make a quick "intervention" to legitimise its creeping land grab.Unlike '62,are eyes are not blind to the Himalayan happenings,but we must see that they are not "eyes wide shut!"

That the GOI has been caught napping is very obvious.The Congress led govt. was in power for 5 years.It did B-all with respect to building up a comparitive infrastructiure on our side of the McMahon line (ignorantly being called the "Mac-Mohan" line by the likes of the "Barking" wonder and her colleagues in the media channels!) despite the open evidence of China's massive infrastructure development of the region including the railway to Tibet.Critical defence weapon system upgrades and acquisitions were delayed thanks to indifference.We are therefore in a current position where as in '62,we are at a disadvantage militarily.Dilpomatically too,we are being outmanoeuvred by China on issues like the Tibetan uprising ,not allowing the Dalai Lama (until just now) to visit Arunachal Pradesh,etc.
The overwhelming need of the hour is to take on a war footing several initiatives on several fronts,so as to checkmate the Chinese and stiffen our posture militarily and diplomatically until we have been able to recover the advantage lost described above.

Firstly,the acceleration of infrastructure for dual use civil and military purposes.More helipads,road networks-which take the longest time to develop has to happen.Logistics is the key to winning any conflict in such inhospitable regions.We need to have a series and string of military bases with large stocks of eqpt. food and ammo ,enough to fight a protracted year long conflict.Kargil taught us how difficult it is to win a war in the mountains.

Secondly,militarily,the most urgent requirements of the armed forces must be alleviated by immediate decision making on long pending items to be procured,especially those affecting the Army's capability in the Himalayas.The need for proper winter clothing (remember Kargil and the boots?) light-weight artillery,extra medium multi-role helos,attack gunships,SAM missile batteries,rocket launchers like Smerch, light tanks,and even SSMs like Prithvi and Brahmos are of paramount importance.Apart from the neds of the Army,beeefing up the IAF's capabilities in both fighters and transports,which are vital if a spat takes place,the IAF will have to bear a huge responsibility in support of the IA as well as blunting and obliterating the enemy's forces.
Apart from urgent purchsases of eqpt. abroad,local production at our PSUs and private suppliers ramped up round the clock as we did the last time round.Stocks of petro-products built up to last anticipating a year long protracted spat.We also need to raise the strength of the three services for the long term and moves should start right now.The Army should raise at least another 15 divisions,several more mountain divisions and more armoured divisions too to significantly outnumber Pak in the western sector.China spends 7% of its GDP on defence and we should raise ours to between 4% at least.The Fin.Min. should move at supersonic speed to pass reccomendations by the CCS.

Thirdly,on the diplomatic front,we should hasten ties with Taiwan-sending a delegation of MPs,etc. for establishing stronger "cultural" ties,explore the opportunity of selling the Taiwanese arms and missiles,just as Pak benefits from Chinese largesse and future strengthen our relations with SoKo and old friend Vietnam.This is where we can establish stronger military ties with Vietnam who fought a war with China which they did not lose! A high level squad of envoys should visit the ASEAN nations as well as Burma and Bangladesh and brief them on the situ ,a subtle way in which to tell them not to stir the pot and succumb to Chinese mischief by conducting any anti-Indian activities.

One area where we can score a huge symbolic point is to give honorary citizenship to all the Tibetan refugees,as well as the Dalai Lama.Uuntil they can return to a Tibet cleansed of Han Chinese influence,they are under our protection.Tibet should in fact be a protectorate of India as Bhutan is,being a Budhist Himalayan nation.As I've said before,Tibet is Indian in culture through BUddhism and has little or no Chinese historic influence whatsoever.This what India should trumpet to the Chinese,and as others have made out demand that certain holy sites,rivers,lakes,mountains of Hinduism which lie in the disputed territory of Tibet,etc.,actually belong to India.If China can make absurd demands upon Indian territory,we also have the right to demand possession of our ancient holy sites too,for which we have thousands of years of historical evdience to prove our case.

Fourth,a full scale media campaign to expose China's lies and chicanery is neccessary to enlighten the international community.A French journalist has in a paper today reminded us that China did in fact recognise the McMahon Line in the early 1900s. Here is another Deccan Chronicle piece from its archives on the subject.

New Delhi, Sept. 2: Prime Minister Nehru is understood to have reiterated at a brief meeting of the consultative committee of Members of Parliament on external affairs here today that the Macmahon Line was the definite recognised border between India on the northeast and China and any violation of it, therefore, constituted aggression.
He is reported to have said that although the entire region might not have been fully surveyed and charted, the Macmahon Line was a well-defined frontier.
During his discussions with the Chinese Premier when the latter visited India, Mr Chou En-lai had given him to understand that he agreed to this.
If the Macmahon Line could be the border between Burma and China, its extension on the Indian side was logically the border between India and China.
He, however, would not rule out minor adjustments with regard to small pockets here and there

Winning the Propaganda War is as important as winning the actual war on the battlefield,in fact it has even greater importance in influencing opinion at home.The Pakis for decades fooled their own kind into believing that they got the better of India in '65,the illusion of that "victory" was shattered in '71.The GOI/MEA should work in tandem with the media,taking it into confidence so that a common strategy can be employed and a united front presented to the Chinese to show them that the country is united and ready to do battle with them should the need arise.This should be used as a weapon with which to check China from any belligerence at this juncture until we have plugged gaps in o0ur defences and weak points.

Finally,the credibility of our strategic deterrent,our TN designs, has been put into grave doubt in recent weeks by one of our scientists who was part of the P-2 team.At this critical juncture,we need to bolster our deterrent asap,by rapidly increasing our arsenal of true and tested N-warheads and their complementary delivery systems.The N-warheads should be moved to the bases where the delivery systems are located and should be ready in as short a time as possible to be mated with the missiles and aircraft.The Sino-Pak axis of evil are coordinating their efforts on the border.The Paki firing is to present India with trouble on both fronts and delay or reduce our mobilisation on the Chinese border,so that the Chinese retain their military advantage there in terms of numbers as well.The sooner an Indian ICBM is tested and put into full-scale production,the safer will we be,as at the moment we can depend only upon two legs of the N-triad unlike the Chinese.Nations at a numerical disadvantage have won wars by often striking first,as Israel has done in the past.While not advocating military adventurism Paki style,adventurism,India cannot rule out this option totally.Perhaps the time has also come for us to seriously plan for the liberation of Tibet in the future by assisting the willing Tibetan diaspora around the globe to do so.WE also have a common friend (if you take Mao's advice) in the Uighars of Xinjiang and the Baluchis of Pak.If the Chinese think that they and their rent-boy can stir up trouble in India's N-East and the Pakis too in J&K,then so can we return the compliment.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 18 Sep 2009 18:24

In the ADB loan article, notice that Japan, Australia backed China. This would not have happened if GWB was around. Whatever happened to the India, Australia, Japan nexus against China/ supporting democratic values etc? China just last year was watching that with a wary eye. There is a deep rot in some of the planning at the top. Even Gujral had more spunk than these people now. Do these guys really care anything about India?

It's very very high and urgent time that India comes out with leadership that does and 'hints' strongly at doing the following:

1. Straight up claim to the entire Kailash/ Mansarover region. It should not even be disputed.

2. Hold Tibet itself as disputed.

3. Dispel with the notion that a 'Stable TSP is in India's interest'.

All this talk about LAC and difficulty of plotting it is simply because China is India's new neighbour. Dear old Tibet our previous neighbour would never have had an issue on the LOC. We'd have had a very peaceful border with it forever. All the issues raised by China, our new neighbour would not have mattered one bit and this should be highlighted.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 18 Sep 2009 18:46

Why are we even recognizing anything like an Indo-China border amazes me. Every time this is raised in the meida the official explanation should be something like this to the media: " Please understand this is difficult to place in exactly as India and China have never had borders in their entire history. With Tibet around there were no border issues because of extremely close cultural contiguity. This is not the case after China took over Tibet."

These sort of statements can be made and are the truth. The truth alone will start putting China on the backfoot. But the present dispensation does not want to dispense with the truth as that will displease China. The above statement for example in no way recognizes/ derecognizes China's annexation of Tibet, but is perilously close to send shivers up China's spine.

India's border dispute even with pakis is just that. Lack of cultural contiguity. Nepal, Bhutan and India will not have a border dispute. But after the Prachanandas hand over Nepal to Han, watch Bodh Gaya and other areas of Uttaranchal become disputed territory one after the other with countries like Japan and Australia voting with China..

Shame.

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/ ... enture.htm

Javee · Post by **Javee** » 18 Sep 2009 19:53

deleted on author's request.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 19 Sep 2009 03:57

Looks like war over Arunachal Pradesh is inevitable. ADB refused funds for Arunachal because Japan, Australia, Pakistan supported China.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 19 Sep 2009 05:30

ADB did not refuse funds, it refused to recognize Arunachel as part of India. U.S and West voted in India's favour. Our regional diplomacy is found wanting once again

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Sep 2009 05:45

johnny_m wrote:ADB did not refuse funds, it refused to recognize Arunachel as part of India. U.S and West voted in India's favour. Our regional diplomacy is found wanting once again

The eastern States Japan and SK look at India as a western poodle who is taking advantage over china in this issue.

This perception will prevail until Indian policy makers have the right framework.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 19 Sep 2009 06:26

They look at us as weak. Its they and not us who are western poodles. Even then they will act in their own interest at times like this. We always act to please others, be it China or U.S.

Accepting Tibet as Part of China was the biggest mistake, and recently Milliband went to China and apologized for the McMahon line. This goes against us because we accept Tibet as part of China. In such circumstances it will be hard to push Indian view across in an International forum or court.

I do believe that the best way to deal with China is by strengthening the border whilst talking to China. Russia and China settled many of their border differences because Chinese respect Russian power. If we make Arunachel a fortress then they will be open to fair negotiations in which both sides may need to make concessions, for example Akasi Chin can be a make-weight in any potential re-drawing of boundaries.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Sep 2009 06:50

johnny_m wrote:T
Accepting Tibet as Part of China was the biggest mistake, and recently Milliband went to China and apologized for the McMahon line. This goes against us because we accept Tibet as part of China. In such circumstances it will be hard to push Indian view across in an International forum or court.

One big guy told me recently that China is fuming under/ angry over the colonization of China last century and this anger is not going away. The west is worried about this and they are playing safe and pushing India into the forefront to bear this anger.
India will become the football between these large players.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 19 Sep 2009 07:29

Acharya wrote:
johnny_m wrote:T
Accepting Tibet as Part of China was the biggest mistake, and recently Milliband went to China and apologized for the McMahon line. This goes against us because we accept Tibet as part of China. In such circumstances it will be hard to push Indian view across in an International forum or court.
One big guy told me recently that China is fuming under/ angry over the colonization of China last century and this anger is not going away. The west is worried about this and they are playing safe and pushing India into the forefront to bear this anger.
India will become the football between these large players.

Yes they try to assert their border claims which are over hundreds of years old, the problem is not India specific, they have outstanding border issues with Russia, Japan, Vietnam and others. This is how totalitarian governments work, either communist or fascist, they glorify the nations past and lay out an expansionist agenda. For example if we follow the same doctrine we could go back to the ancient texts and aim for a greater India including all of Pakistan and Afghanistan and even some provinces of Iran.

I expect no American involvement in the ground in a possible war with China. But Americans can however exert their control over Pakistan and keep them from entering the fray, with most of the forces diverted eastward we do stand a chance of meeting any challenge in the Eastern Frontier. There will never be a question of Nuclear War because India is only a small issue in China's grand scheme of things. Any nuclear war would potentially set them back a decade or two and make their major cities inhospitable and thus destroy the dream of catching up with America.

In short we cannot afford to look weak when dealing with China. They will be more than happy with a limited surprise war to take over the disputed territories and declare truce. With their political might they may force international opinion on India as to not try to retake the territories. And slowly like in the case of Tibet the world and even India will accept that they are part of China. There is also a chance of the Chinese trying to take more Indian territory even in the non disputed zones and using them as bargaining chips (or even withdrawing from these territories to say they are fair they only took the disputed territories).

Even a bold open proclamation that any war involving border regions will be fought as all out wars may deter the Chinese.

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 19 Sep 2009 07:34

The Chinese are also after most of Kazakhstan, UZbek, Tajik and others - all they need is some buried artifact to stake it. Nobody in this world is going to stop them this is destiny.

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 19 Sep 2009 07:38

Patrick Cusack wrote:The Chinese are also after most of Kazakhstan, UZbek, Tajik and others - all they need is some buried artifact to stake it. Nobody in this world is going to stop them this is destiny.

So thought Adolf Hitler

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Sep 2009 08:48

Borderline Amnesia by China Claude Arpi

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 19 Sep 2009 10:20

Subramaniyam Swami's article is a little misleading regarding historical relations between India and China.

Imperial China did interfere in the local affairs of the Malay peninsular at least in the 15th century to prevent Ayuthian Empire (Siamese/Thai power) from dominating the infant Malaccan city-state. At the same period, Admiral Zeng He (Cheng Ho) made his historic voyages. Why didn't Imperial China venture into Indian terrirory when it was powerful superpower with a large, mighty and solidly trained army?

On the other hand neither Muslim dominated India nor pre-Muslim era Indian power ventured into China on military expedition. Asoka of the Mauryan dynasty built an impressive army. His military venture was focused south at Kalingan empire. The Chandragupta rulers ventured all the way to Kandahar but never went against China.

When one look at the map of China and India, between India and China lies the monstrous and extremely dominating Himalayan range. Hanibal may have crossed the Pyrennes but that would be child's play compared to any adventure crossing over the mighty Himalaya. Thus I would venture to suggest that the absense of either Chinese military venture into India or Indian military venture into China need not be because there was no intend but because of the natural Himalayan barrier.

On the other hand Rajendra II of the Chola dynasty undertook a massive naval/marine expedition into Southeast Asia and destroyed most of his trading rivals. He completely extinguished the 400 year old Hindu Kingdom of Langkasuka which was located in the north part of present day Malaysia. The destruction of Langkasuka was so complete that its name only lived in legends until the 1980s when people stumbled onto the artifacts during construction work.

The mighty Hindu Srivijaya empire in Indonesia survived the onslaught but could not hold for long and collapsed soon after.

The Chinese venture to stop Ayuthian power in SEA was also a naval/marine expedition. From these it (at least to me) is clear that while both powers were able to mount a naval/marine venture far from their heart land, the Himalayam range (and not some benevolent sentiment) stopped both from mounting a land expedition against each other.

Not long ago, I was at a muzeum in Bukhara (Uzbeskistan). I came across so many Bhuddist statues and artifacts. By then I was in a preety tight circle of President Karrimov and with that was able to get around quite easily. So, I was fettered by one of the curators of the muzeum. He mentioned that the whole of Central Asia is littered Buddhist artifacts. Infact, he claimed after the destruction of the Bamiyan statues, next largest statue of Buddha is in Central Asia. The gist of his assertation is that contrary to popular believe, the Buddhist teachings arrived in China via Central Asia. We could not rule out some brave souls who must have crossed the Himalayas into Tibet etc to spread the Buddhist faith but I am convinced that these mountains are a formidable barrier.

Ironically, the powers that eventually came to dominate India came not from across the Himalayas but via the same Silk Route that let out the Buddhist religious expedition.

Avram Sprinzl

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 19 Sep 2009 13:26

DDM though is going way over and hyping the threat beyond belief . It's like Fox news on Iraq , only worse. I set about watching healines today yesterday and times now the day before and the tone of the media was sensationalist to say the least. Our media is not nationalistic , it just wants to create "Breaking news" out of everything.

Reporters talk as if we are at the mercy of China and they are going to attack tomorrow , they show everything from Google maps of airbases to potential naval bases to any other military plan which may or may not be conceptulized.

Such fear mongering is not helping at all and contrary to belief it does not force the hand of GoI to act. The media is a reflection on the mood of the nation and it's unofficial spokesperson on the international stage , they must be put in their place sometime , not like China perhaps but surely terms of Quality and credible reporting which does not needlessly dent the nations reputation and standing.

On the other hand , it's highly doubtful that China will come out to start a conflict , for all their military might and missile tech. they still did not fire a bullet towards Taiwan in recent times , leave alone a trading partner and military machinery as big as India. They use classical soft power in terms of diplomatic clout , economic power and a bit of military projection and the media flips out .

Of course we don't have matching infrastructure but we don't need to match them gun for gun and man for man , we are preparing - at a slower pace certainly but at least we are but if we panic or more importantly the TRP hungry media panicks then we're losing the battle.

They invested 30 years in their economy to get here and thats' still got to be our number one priority.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 19 Sep 2009 13:35

Is Maoist insurgency supported by China? It is surely helping the advancement of the Chinese way of Life over India.Even the PM humbly admits that we have failed to contain this internal threat. Maybe UAVs would be helpful in fighting insurgents. We are losing plenty of people on this internal front so to speak.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 19 Sep 2009 21:10

'Chinese troops hit us on our heads with iron rods'

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 19 Sep 2009 22:20

asprinzl wrote:Not long ago, I was at a muzeum in Bukhara (Uzbeskistan). I came across so many Bhuddist statues and artifacts. By then I was in a preety tight circle of President Karrimov and with that was able to get around quite easily. So, I was fettered by one of the curators of the muzeum. He mentioned that the whole of Central Asia is littered Buddhist artifacts. Infact, he claimed after the destruction of the Bamiyan statues, next largest statue of Buddha is in Central Asia. The gist of his assertation is that contrary to popular believe, the Buddhist teachings arrived in China via Central Asia. We could not rule out some brave souls who must have crossed the Himalayas into Tibet etc to spread the Buddhist faith but I am convinced that these mountains are a formidable barrier.

Avram, you move in important circles. I wonder how you do it and what you do ... but you don't have to tell it here as its a public forum. As an aside: the name of the city "Bukhara", is from the Budhist/Sanskrit word Vihara. So the irony is that Imama Bukhari of Jama Masjid of NDLS gets his name from a Sankrit origin name.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 19 Sep 2009 22:38

There was no question of India or China undertaking military expeditions into each other in the historical past - because they did not share common borders. There were always indepndent principalities in between. Especially Tibet. However, it might not be entirely true that Indians never thought of expanding into Tibet. In the Mahabharata, Arjuna is actually returned by the "kinkars" from the "cloudy" gates of Tibbet on his horse-sacrifice campaign. They gave him lots of "treasures" and Arjuna "wisely" concluded to return. Some indication of extracting tributes but not a regular incorporation.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 19 Sep 2009 23:28

Pradyumna, one of Lord krishna's sons, entered into a treaty with the Chinese, ensuring fair trade practices between the two regions.In Rampur Bushahr, Himachal Pradesh, a mela occurs yearly,and lots of Tibetans come there even today.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 20 Sep 2009 00:56

Surinder,
Nothing spectacular. A few years ago, the then gf who is Iranian apostate took me to a party in Queens, New York. Her gf was then belly dancing at the party. She turned out to be an Uzbekistani and introduced me to an Uzbek Jew. It was at the same party I was introduced to President Islam Karimov who was on a private visit to NY by the very Jew I met a few minutes ago.

A chance encounter I would say. But then you need to be suave to take it from there. The next day these folks invited me to an Uzbek kinda day time backyard BBQ. What I remember most was the chears after cheers of vodka everyone was drowning from Karimov to the females to the Jews present. And also the tasty boiled goat meat wrapped around onion peel. (Anybody know what I am talking about?). I also remember the distinct look of the central Asians there. They had this look which seemed like a combination of Caucasian and Chinese. More so the females. Their lith architecture with bellydancing moves can be deadly combination especially when vodka plays the devil's advocate.

These are extremely hospitable people if you know them well. More so then the Bedoine in Israel. I was surprised when in two days of knowing the president I am getting invitation to visit the palace in Bukhara. I guess if they like you from the first impression on they really like you but if they don't like you they will really don't like you forever. ( Interesting observation here that I think many western leaders don't understand. From what I saw in pictures while visiting Uzbekistan, the Russian leaders and the political leaders of the CAR actually enjoy great personal rapport which the outside world will not understand. These guys are really buddy-buddy. Which is why Putin is able to have most of them under his orbit.)

I don't move around in important circles. Just that if you put me in the middle of Kalahari desert, I will eventually end up being the best friend of the chief of which ever tribe I come across.

Admin, appologize for OT.
Avram

surinder · Post by **surinder** » 20 Sep 2009 01:01

Avaram,
that was one helluva interesting post. What would I give to be your buddy in NY.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 20 Sep 2009 04:05

Just that if you put me in the middle of Kalahari desert, I will eventually end up being the best friend of the chief of which ever tribe I come across.

That ain't me, but I would end up befriending the chief's youngest wife.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 20 Sep 2009 07:55

I keep reading lately about India bolstering her position on the India/China frontier. I believe India does not need to match man to man or gun for guns but should be able to throw more fire over the otherside than the enemy can throw at you in case of a misadventure by the enemy. For that you need to have better guns, better ammos, better rockets and better warplanes than the enemy even if lesser in numbers. Overwhelming concentration of man power would lead to slaughter of lives better used elsewhere.

One thing I cannot understand is why the ban on army patrol? If the army cannot patrol and observe the region then the army will not know much of the local terrain and will be disadvantaged in crucial tactical situation.
Avram

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 20 Sep 2009 09:38

Nihat wrote:DDM though is going way over and hyping the threat beyond belief . It's like Fox news on Iraq , only worse. I set about watching healines today yesterday and times now the day before and the tone of the media was sensationalist to say the least. Our media is not nationalistic , it just wants to create "Breaking news" out of everything.

TimesNow reporter went to the indo-china border in AP and talked to the villagers there, THEY said the chinese are being increasingly seen there, not only soldiers on foot patrol but chinese grazers too.

How is this "sensationalist"? When there are initial signs that foreigners are invading your land will you inform the rest of country to be ready for a war OR keep quiet like nehru did and lose the war.

No need to attack TimesNow or HeadlinesToday which have done a far better work of keeping the nation informed of the realities on our border.

The people who need to be criticised are people like M.K.Narayanan who blame the indian media for raising the issue of incurions.
Did MKN visit the AP villages and get sense of the situation on the border? No.
All he does is meet the chinese embassy official in delhi and then say everyting is right on the border. He can get back to "do nothing" mode. No need to modernise the defence forces, he can get back to smoking the peace pipe.

asprinzl · Post by **asprinzl** » 20 Sep 2009 12:11

sanjaykumar wrote:Just that if you put me in the middle of Kalahari desert, I will eventually end up being the best friend of the chief of which ever tribe I come across.

That ain't me, but I would end up befriending the chief's youngest wife.

And in turn end up as his dinner. Very smart indeed.

In most primitive or tribal soceities, respect earns respect. And mischief begets mischief. I have been to tribal camps of the Bedoine in Negev, other tribal camps in Yemen, desert tribal outposts in Sudan, sat and shared weird tasting old milk in Mongolian camp with nomads, shared vodka with the fierce Cossacks in southern Russia, even befriended the very hostile Tuareg in Senegal. I have visited the oreng aslee in central Malaysia, shared some spiritually moving experience in a Native American Hogan in New Mexico.....in all these places....respect begets respect. Always. Never under estimate the intelligence of these peoples or insult them on their own turf.