Armoured Vehicles Discussion Thread

[chackojoseph]

Many such tradeoffs can be talked about.

Interesting, what are the others?

[pralay]

No Sir, light is about weight only (unless you are talking quantum mechanics here) -- and speed is not the top speed, or even speed in a sustained dash. Speed here refers to net time taken to go over many hundred Kms in a short span of time (this includes the number of liters of fuel it will burn, number of spares needed for that etc, and hence the logistical trail)

The technological generation remaining same (don't compare tanks 20 years apart) -- a light(er) tank has some inherent advantage over heavier ones as well as some disadvantages. Those are trade-offs which exist within a MBT design space. Just as in A/C space (otherwise IAF would want ONLY Su 30s)

sir,
Then is the speed not something evaluated in comparative trials? where both tanks were made to run for certain number of kilometers cross country and then shoot ?

It will try its best to not meet any enemy tanks on the way, that will only slow down the dash.

Why are you dashing then? to conquer territory that can not be sustained ? and to thin out your supply chain more ?
Also you will have to travel longer to avoid enemy tanks, and will leave behind the enemy strong holds intact.
Then what about your supply lines sir?
Are you expecting the enemy not to touch your supply chain because you are just avoiding the enemy strong-holds ?

on other hands, if some other tank column moves ahead wiping out the enemy strongholds and resistance, it will ensure safer and more sustainable supply chains.

t-90 has about 650km range on roads while arjun has 450, the difference of 200 will be lesser cross-country and will be about 70-120km.
and if t-90 starts avoiding the strongholds it will travel longer and the difference will come down to almost 40-60 km.
So will we risk the whole supply chains for these extra 40-60km ?

this is just a scenario without refueling,
the actual scenario with refueling is much more complicated than this and the range advantage of t-90 will not be able to make much difference.
Maintenance and servicing is done mainly on safe grounds not while you are on run and enemy is surrounding or chasing you.

BTW, even US did exactly the same with Abhrams in Iraq. By the time M1s came to battle, it was already a turkey shoot, pretty much.
However if they have to meet resistance, they are more than match for anything in terms of armor that will come their way.

sir
we are not US. We don't have overwhelming air superiority on our enemies that US enjoyed in Iraq.

Also the great armor and protection natasha speaks about is not present on the tanks we have purchased.
If the t-90 gets cooked up in battle, natasha will just say... its export variant and not what they themselves are fielding:P

also if all these things can be achieved with a home made product then why spend on foreign maal ?

After all, if one of your family member makes a product lets say a bread, then will you buy bread from outsiders if the bread made by your family member is of better quality??

[Arya Sumantra]

Fuel consumption. T-90S = 1600 litres... combat range = 650km = .40 KMPL Arjun = 1610 litres... combat range = 450km = .27 KMPL ...

And what is the width of Pakistan to need a longer range BTW ? Looks like IA wants to directly reach Pak-Afg border on a single fuel load.

[Sanku]

However if they have to meet resistance, they are more than match for anything in terms of armor that will come their way.

Any information on the known armor thickness/protection offered by Pakistani T-80UD and Bhisma T-90 ? I suppose T-80UD is the best they have.

Do both tanks carry the same gun launched missile and KE rounds ?

http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/2047 ... Bishma.pdf

First the armaments. The T-90S can
fire different armaments, including two kinds of
missiles. The T-80UD carries only one type of missile.
While the loading is automatic in the T-90S, it is
hydro-mechanical in the T-80UD. The T-90S also
has an AK74 assault rifle, but that is of minor
significance. The tank is provided with an
integrated fire control system which makes it a far
superior MBT to contend with. But the best feature
of the T-90S tank relates to its battle survivability.
The Kontakt 5 ERA, the latest generation in armor
protection, protects the tank from frontal, flank
and aerial attacks. This ensures their protection
from manually operated fire systems. The SHTORA-
1 defensive aid makes it very difficult for the
enemy to attack, especially if the fire system uses
guided missiles and laser targeting. And, most
importantly, the T-90 includes protection against
chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

[anirban_aim]

Awesome!!!!! So, here we go again on this thread....

Sankuji is back and how??

I must confess that I'm an avowed Arjun lover, but hats off to Sankuji for single handedly holding the front for the Cans. If I was in charge, most definitely I would recommend a PVSM for him. Power be to you Sanku ji, I know it must be lonely out there but I'll pray for you.

With the real world cup action yet to start, this sure is good excitement.

I wonder when will Rahul M and rohitvats come on the field so that the games get real intresting.

[Sanku]

Many such tradeoffs can be talked about.

Interesting, what are the others?

Pretty much every other logistic supply chain issue.

[Sanku]

sir,
Then is the speed not something evaluated in comparative trials? where both tanks were made to run for certain number of kilometers cross country and then shoot ?

Comparative trials, did not have long range cross country movements as far as is the knowledge in public domain. Those figures come from AUCRT.

Why are you dashing then? to conquer territory that can not be sustained ? and to thin out your supply chain more ?

Ask Gen. Guderian and Gen Jacob et al. It is called encirclement.

Old concept, brilliant results when executed successfully. This is the holy grail of tank use. Please look it up, there are excellent resources.

sir
we are not US. We don't have overwhelming air superiority on our enemies that US enjoyed in Iraq.

We may have less of air-superiority but enough for our needs. And use of Pinaka and Heli assests have nothing to do with air-superiority in anycase.

Also the great armor and protection natasha speaks about is not present on the tanks we have purchased.

Apart from Shotra, we have the best protected T 90s, this version is one of the best protected MBTs anywhere in the world. (Even according to US sites) Even Shotra was on offer earlier and may still end up with T 90s, since it can be fitted retroactively.

also if all these things can be achieved with a home made product then why spend on foreign maal ?

Well Arjun matured not before a year or two. So that point is entirely moot. In fact there is absolutely no merit in that competition because they are not competing.

[chackojoseph]

http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/2047 ... Bishma.pdf

She has written an analysis based on what the "references" have written. But, Paki T-80UD's have T-84 Opulot kind of capabilities. Also, there are 4 varients of T-80UD's. For example, both tanks can fire 9M119 or 9M119M missiles, where as the article says that T-80UD can fire just 1 type missile. Integrated and computerised fire control for AK-47 and the autoloader difference is only a matter of usage and tactics. Plus, Pakis are reported to have improved the T-80UD's (courtesy ukarain, turkey, china etc). So, there is nothing conclusive that Paki T-80UD is inferior to T-90S.

[chackojoseph]

Pretty much every other logistic supply chain issue.

Like what?

[Sanku]

Fuel consumption. T-90S = 1600 litres... combat range = 650km = .40 KMPL Arjun = 1610 litres... combat range = 450km = .27 KMPL ...

And what is the width of Pakistan to need a longer range BTW ? Looks like IA wants to directly reach Pak-Afg border on a single fuel load.

The fuel consumption goes up in cross country moves. Also the tanks wont be moving linearly. The question here is more of how much fuel does the supporting logistics train need to carry. Or how far can the tanks move before needing fuel.

[Sanku]

Pretty much every other logistic supply chain issue.

Like what?

Why dont you share the avg MTBF numbers for various components for the two tanks? d_berwal has shared some numbers, but no one wants to believe him. So why dont you tell us the numbers?

[chackojoseph]

Why dont you share the avg MTBF numbers for various components for the two tanks? d_berwal has shared some numbers, but no one wants to believe him. So why dont you tell us the numbers?

The debate is about lightness and associated benefits. So, please stick to that.

[chackojoseph]

The fuel consumption goes up in cross country moves. Also the tanks wont be moving linearly. The question here is more of how much fuel does the supporting logistics train need to carry. Or how far can the tanks move before needing fuel.

Cross country fuel consumption by Arjun and T-90 is similar (210 vs 220 (approx))> Arjuns cross country speed is 40 kms/h and t-90 is 30 kms per hour.

Arjuns PSI is lower and power to weight is higher, hence,it performs better in cross country. So, the lightness of T-90 is not an advantage in cross country.

[Austin]

http://www.ipcs.org/pdf_file/issue/2047 ... Bishma.pdf

Thanks , this is what I found on 125 mm round
http://fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/ARM/atgm/ammo.html

The Sokol-1 is interesting as its mentioned Self Targeting round , giving it a F&F capability. Although I would prefer they develop a TopAttack/Supersonic/MMW seeker hermes like 125mm missile , that would do lot good in time to target and all weather capability.

[pralay]

The SHTORA-
1 defensive aid makes it very difficult for the
enemy to attack, especially if the fire system uses
guided missiles and laser targeting.

SHTORA is not present on any of the t-90 we have sir. so now its not very difficult for the enemy to attack, especially if the fire system uses guided missiles & laser targeting.

And, most
importantly, the T-90 includes protection against
chemical, biological and nuclear weapons.

even Arjun has NBC protection right from the first batch.

[pralay]

The fuel consumption goes up in cross country moves. Also the tanks wont be moving linearly. The question here is more of how much fuel does the supporting logistics train need to carry. Or how far can the tanks move before needing fuel.

Cross country fuel consumption by Arjun and T-90 is similar (210 vs 220 (approx))> Arjuns cross country speed is 40 kms/h and t-90 is 30 kms per hour.

Arjuns PSI is lower and power to weight is higher, hence,it performs better in cross country. So, the lightness of T-90 is not an advantage in cross country.

aha chacko ji,
If the numbers are reliable then T-90 does not really provide any advantage as its slower cross country,
I think Sanku ji will have to choose a different tank for their blitzkrieg mission.

[Gurinder P]

I think Sanku ji will have to choose a different tank for their blitzkrieg mission.

Pardon this naive question, but didn't Marshall Zhukov back in WWII beat the blitzkrieg by deploying the defense in depth (like at Kursk). Since this strategy is also in the history books like the blitzkrieg, couldn't Pakistan also deploy Defense in Depth to blunt the Indian spearheads?

[chackojoseph]

aha chacko ji,
If the numbers are reliable then T-90 does not really provide any advantage as its slower cross country,
I think Sanku ji will have to choose a different tank for their blitzkrieg mission.

Very reliable.

You see, the T-90S data is based on the manufacturers specs and the "Indian subcontinent" cross country numbers are not avaliable from them. This number is from a comparission table from India (specifying is not possible right now). It is not that the source is super secret. I am entitled to keep my sources for myself. Any one can get that info if they just ask the particular person/outfit. I have long posted that comparrision on my site.

So, Sanku is actually a victim of his ignorence.

[rohitvats]

^^^Where is the depth when it comes to Pakistan? And if deep, how deep? How close that brings Indian Armor to the major lateral Lines of Communication and other nodes?

[chackojoseph]

Pardon this naive question, but didn't Marshall Zhukov back in WWII beat the blitzkrieg by deploying the defense in depth (like at Kursk). Since this strategy is also in the history books like the blitzkrieg, couldn't Pakistan also deploy Defense in Depth to blunt the Indian spearheads?

Cold Start is for dustbin or shredders.

[Gurinder P]

^^^Where is the depth when it comes to Pakistan? And if deep, how deep? How close that brings Indian Armor to the major lateral Lines of Communication and other nodes?

For starters, if Pakistan has intel on Indian armoured movements and paths that the army plans to take, the PA can fortify areas by planting mine fields, spreading hunter-killer teams against Indian armour and when the time is right, smashing the spearheads with frontal and lateral assualts. Defense in the Depth doesn't mean wearing out the IA all the way to Islamabad, just deep enough into Punjab to spring a nasty trap. (Last thing anyone wants to hear is Admiral Ackbar screaming "IT'S A TRAP" in his Arjun).

All this is also based on the IAF being unable to lend a helping hand as it will be busy taking out some DeathStar near Endor.

[SaiK]

Trilokanath Sanku ji:

On the operational range of arjun mk-2 with the new engine, can someone post a link to this spec? Again one can't compare a straight v-12 engine race car that beat eurofighter speed for a small distance, with a toyota fj crusier doing the real hard job perfectly and efficiently.

While on your explosive drive to deliver few off the top line single line comparison, can you make a detailed one-one analysis in every aspect of the tank, so that it is more descriptive and clear of your claims?

[chackojoseph]

For starters, if Pakistan has intel on Indian armoured movements and paths that the army plans to take, the PA can fortify areas by planting mine fields, spreading hunter-killer teams against Indian armour and when the time is right, smashing the spearheads with frontal and lateral assualts. Defense in the Depth doesn't mean wearing out the IA all the way to Islamabad, just deep enough into Punjab to spring a nasty trap. (Last thing anyone wants to hear is Admiral Ackbar screaming "IT'S A TRAP" in his Arjun).

All this is also based on the IAF being unable to lend a helping hand as it will be busy taking out some DeathStar near Endor.

Still, how does 650 kms of T-90 fit in this?

[Gurinder P]

For starters, if Pakistan has intel on Indian armoured movements and paths that the army plans to take, the PA can fortify areas by planting mine fields, spreading hunter-killer teams against Indian armour and when the time is right, smashing the spearheads with frontal and lateral assualts. Defense in the Depth doesn't mean wearing out the IA all the way to Islamabad, just deep enough into Punjab to spring a nasty trap. (Last thing anyone wants to hear is Admiral Ackbar screaming "IT'S A TRAP" in his Arjun).

All this is also based on the IAF being unable to lend a helping hand as it will be busy taking out some DeathStar near Endor.

Still, how does 650 kms of T-90 fit in this?

Those tanks will run into Pakistan across the dusty desert and into the lush plain fields, all the way being harassed by the enemy.

Meanwhile back in Islamabad, the Emperor unleashes his nefarious plan and shows the Indian Army that the Pakistani Army is indeed operational and unleashes it against the Indian Armoured Thrusts. Whole bunch of Chaos ensues and Admiral Ackbar yells to his troops that "It's a Trap", until until our hero Amitabh Bachchan flies his MKI into the underground lair of the Emperor and blows it Sky high, and the Pakistani Army shuts down.
(Note: Some knowledge of Star Wars Ep VI is needed to get the humour)

[ParGha]

^^^Where is the depth when it comes to Pakistan? And if deep, how deep? How close that brings Indian Armor to the major lateral Lines of Communication and other nodes?

For starters, if Pakistan has intel on Indian armoured movements and paths that the army plans to take, the PA can fortify areas by planting mine fields, spreading hunter-killer teams against Indian armour and when the time is right, smashing the spearheads with frontal and lateral assualts. Defense in the Depth doesn't mean wearing out the IA all the way to Islamabad, just deep enough into Punjab to spring a nasty trap. (Last thing anyone wants to hear is Admiral Ackbar screaming "IT'S A TRAP" in his Arjun).

Islamabad was not the target of the thrusts, the North-South lines of communication between Pakjab and Karachi Port were. This discussion belongs in the Indian Army History Thread, even with Star War references if you insist. The Paks now have nuclear weapons.

[Gurinder P]

Where have you answered the question? Could you highlight it please?

Sorry about the confusion, but my initial response was towards a post declaring that some poster was for the IA using Blitzkrieg tactics towards Pakistan, and I sent a response stating that such a tactic could be blunted by proper defense in depth and every thing went south from their. As for the 600 km of Tank Trekking, I have nothing to offer for that, other than it would be an incredible waste of fuel since tanks burn liters/km and that transporting them by rail will be the most efficient way, but in the battlefield, I can offer no view on that.

My sincerest apologies on the segway.

[Gurinder P]

Islamabad was not the target of the thrusts, the North-South lines of communication between Pakjab and Karachi Port were. This discussion belongs in the Indian Army History Thread, even with Star War references if you insist. The Paks now have nuclear weapons.

Their is no denying that buddy. But, wouldn't a thrust towards Islamabad also make sense? Since Pakistani HQ for all Gov, Military and Civilian authority be there, plus their Ordinance Factories are near the Capital too right?

[chackojoseph]

But, wouldn't a thrust towards Islamabad also make sense? Since Pakistani HQ for all Gov, Military and Civilian authority be there, plus their Ordinance Factories are near the Capital too right?

Thank Q for assured nuclear attack. Jihad Love - Pindi.

[Gurinder P]

Segue apart, the point was that defences and the strategy will be the same for either tank.

That is true in the traditional battlefield, but Pakistan is so densely populated that would that battlefield exist outside of the Thar Desert or the Western Frontier. Both the Arjun and the 90 are diesel engined so urban environment can be handled by both, but I would feel comfortable with a hybrid design, an IFV with tank armour and Engine but Gattling Cannon heavy with a hint of AT missiles for the odd t-80 of khalid that strolls by.

[Sanku]

Look folks, not withstanding Chacko's claims, which are not documented anywhere -- all documented evidence (the basis of which we are constrained to discuss) shows a clear cut fuel efficiency figure for T 90 over Arjun, which is fairly logical considering that T 90 also as a fairly efficient diesel engine and is 10 T lighter to boot. So there is no wishing away the advantage.

All the other documented evidence from multiple sources also show that T 90 is a fairly robust machine which can take in a lot of punishment before needing repairs, which again are easy to carry out.

Thus it is ideally suited for blitz type tactics.

======================================

Now whether blitz type tactics are useful or not, is a different question altogether, although I am quite sure that some folks here have chosen to dislike (hate) T 90 so much that they will decry Blitz if T 90 appears better for it , the fact remains that Blitz is indeed a very potent weapon of war.

In fact it is THE ONLY option that India has of a quick deep strike into Pakistan, to get to RYK and cut the axis. We will try it and Pakis will try and stop us, but short of a Nuke strike, nothing is going to stop a 1000 tank column supported by LCH et al. Nothing. That is what the Indians practice for consistently, since Brass tacks. So when they get to play that one ball, Pak goes for a six, no matter the line the length.

[Sanku]

PS: Sankuji has shot and scooted.

Light horse archer tactics, well suited to a fast moving tank with a light footprint.



==============

point was that defences and the strategy will be the same for either tank.

Defences yes, tactics no.

[Gurinder P]

But, wouldn't a thrust towards Islamabad also make sense? Since Pakistani HQ for all Gov, Military and Civilian authority be there, plus their Ordinance Factories are near the Capital too right?

Thank Q for assured nuclear attack. Jihad Love - Pindi.

Would Pakistan have balls to blow a tac nuke on their own territory? with their own people in the blast zone? I do think the MKI's can provide beautiful cover against aircraft platform nukes and the ABM's do look promising.

[ParGha]

Islamabad was not the target of the thrusts, the North-South lines of communication between Pakjab and Karachi Port were. This discussion belongs in the Indian Army History Thread, even with Star War references if you insist. The Paks now have nuclear weapons.

Their is no denying that buddy. But, wouldn't a thrust towards Islamabad also make sense? Since Pakistani HQ for all Gov, Military and Civilian authority be there, plus their Ordinance Factories are near the Capital too right?

No, it didn't. It was envisioned in context of the "Jeyo Sindh!" Movement; the axis of incision had to be as close to the cooperative populace (Sindhis) as possible. Islamabad was in the heart of N Pakjab and NWFP, the traditional recruiting grounds for the Pakistani Army (Pathans, Ghakkars, Awans, so-called Rajputs, etc), where the advance would have been bogged down by a troublesome and uncooperative population (same with Rawalpindi, the true center). Again, this belongs in the IA History section.

[Gurneesh]

^^^Where is the depth when it comes to Pakistan? And if deep, how deep? How close that brings Indian Armor to the major lateral Lines of Communication and other nodes?

For starters, if Pakistan has intel on Indian armoured movements and paths that the army plans to take, the PA can fortify areas by planting mine fields, spreading hunter-killer teams against Indian armour and when the time is right, smashing the spearheads with frontal and lateral assualts. Defense in the Depth doesn't mean wearing out the IA all the way to Islamabad, just deep enough into Punjab to spring a nasty trap. (Last thing anyone wants to hear is Admiral Ackbar screaming "IT'S A TRAP" in his Arjun).

All this is also based on the IAF being unable to lend a helping hand as it will be busy taking out some DeathStar near Endor.

Blitzkrieg is an advance that happens very quickly (Shock and Awe if you want to call it). Element of surprise is a necessity in such a task. So, if the enemy knows where and when you will attack, blitzkrieg is possible only if you are vastly superior.

So, what this means is that initial attack should be unpredictable enough to put the enemy on the wrong foot and the subsequent advances should be fast enough to keep the enemy on the wrong foot.

There are chances that enemy will regroup fast enough and try to put forward a decent defense (or even a counter offense). In such a case our equipment should be good enough to nullify the enemy tactics and still maintain the offensive tempo. Otherwise the enemy would have succeeded in his aim of halting your progress and thus buying more time.

Now, the only tank available to India that can do this is Arjun. T-90 is good if we were to just defend but it is not good enough for a fast offensive op.

Arjun officer screaming "it is a trap" is better than T-90 commander standing in Indian territory and contemplating if it could be a trap. Arjun is more than capable to get out of such tricky situations.

Plus Arjun can fire HESH to neutralize all those enemy bunkers.

[Gurinder P]

This thread is turning out to be a 90 vs. Arjun "THU THU MEIN MEIN"

one last noob question. If an assault has to be launched into enemy territory, how far is the objective? I keep seeing RYK which seems to be a City not too far from the Indo-Pak border.

[Sanku]

Blitzkrieg is an advance that happens very quickly (Shock and Awe if you want to call it). Element of surprise is a necessity in such a task. So, if the enemy knows where and when you will attack, blitzkrieg is possible only if you are vastly superior.

Blitz is not shock and awe, shock and awe means that the enemy will be pummeled to remove their fighting will. Blitz is to move quickly to outflank the enemy and cut off his lines.

So, what this means is that initial attack should be unpredictable enough to put the enemy on the wrong foot and the subsequent advances should be fast enough to keep the enemy on the wrong foot.

It will be unpredictable. The Thar is not a tiny place. Thats why speed will be of essence, of being able to quickly get to the places we want to get to, in large numbers, with minimum fuss on the way.

There are chances that enemy will regroup fast enough and try to put forward a decent defense (or even a counter offense). In such a case our equipment should be good enough to nullify the enemy tactics and still maintain the offensive tempo. Otherwise the enemy would have succeeded in his aim of halting your progress and thus buying more time.

There are always chances for anything. Thats why there will be combined arms tactics, with Pinaka's going along with tank columns, with LCHs for top cover. Even without these a 1000 tank column of T 90 is by itself unstoppable for Pak Armor.

Now, the only tank available to India that can do this is Arjun. T-90 is good if we were to just defend but it is not good enough for a fast offensive op.

Arjun officer screaming "it is a trap" is better than T-90 commander standing in Indian territory and contemplating if it could be a trap.

Very dramatic, but unreal.

Plus Arjun can fire HESH to neutralize all those enemy bunkers.

What bunkers? We are by passing bunkers, and Arjun CAN fire HESH, but doesnt, and wont for any foreseeable future (no ammo developed)

[d_berwal]

Anyone who is trying to combine sloped armour theory with ANISOTROPIC materials of the future is basically trying to fit a Square peg in a Round hole. I sincerely hope IA has no ridiculous plans to use a theory (sloped armour)designed to maximize gains from older materials for its futuristic tanks using futuristic high strength to weight materials and make us a laughing stock in the world.

And regarding agility, every tom dick and harry know that if you have to pull breaks to fire everytime your speed is destroyed and fuel efficiency lost. Guess who would be more agile and accurate.

J Phys D Appl. Phys. Vol 12-1979pp 1825-1829. "A.Tate's" ricochet law and the formula is posted on page 33, four reference only please have a look.

[Sanku]

one last noob question. If an assault has to be launched into enemy territory, how far is the objective? I keep seeing RYK which seems to be a City not too far from the Indo-Pak border.

Rahim Yar Khan, the node if we occupy, Pakjab gets cut off from Sindh but we wont be making a straight line dash in the shortest path. It will be in unpredictable arcs.

[Gurneesh]

although I am quite sure that some folks here have chosen to dislike (hate) T 90 so much that they will decry Blitz if T 90 appears better for it , the fact remains that Blitz is indeed a very potent weapon of war.

How did you assume that T90 is better that Arjun on Blitz. Arjun is faster than T90, has lesser ground pressure and has higher PWR than T90. So, not only can it run faster than T90, it can run in areas which the t72 equipped IA had declared untankable (if ever there was such a word).

T 90 also as a fairly efficient diesel engine and is 10 T lighter to boot. So there is no wishing away the advantage.

BMP2 has a very efficient diesel engine and is a full 30 T lighter why not use it then. Just put a tank turret (if if the weight goes to 25 T) according to your analysis that would be much better than T90 then.

Plus it is funny how T90 supporters seem to just ignore any and all points given to support Arjun.

First it was lack of accuracy and lack of desert performance. Then after Arjun spanks the beloved T90 they move on to maintenance issues. When given valid points for that, they suddenly move to fuel efficiency. I guess after this people will start complaining that they don't like the color of Arjun or perhaps it doesn't sound as good as T90 .

[Tanaji]

The days of blitzkreig armoured thrusts into Pakistan are over. So many red lines will be crossed that the nuke threshold will be reached long before. Add it that both sides of the border are heavily fortified with DCBs, minefields and fixed positions. It definitely wont be a operation that requires any tank's top speed.

An operation into Pak will require a tank that is built for survivability since it will come under fire quick. And that too in cross country terrain, where none of the hypothetical T90 advantages of "speed" will be evident. Add to that the lower ground pressure of the Arjun, means it is more uniquely positioned to suit Indian scenario of heavy threat perception and cross country operation than the tin can. The theoretical number advantage of the T90 is the equivalent of highway mileage numbers in a car: good to look at but unattainable. Just like the Natashas that the T90 comes with

It is interesting people complain about Arjun's "fuel efficiency" (there is no other point apparently), when it was the IA in the first place that asked for a western style heavy and a high HP engine.

Tomtoming T90s logistical advantage (presumably due to T72 commonality) is like a virgin proclaiming he is forced to be one because he has no logistics available to stock up on condoms.