Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP): 06 Dec 2011

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 25 Dec 2011 21:45

CRamS wrote:
gakakkad wrote:As Shiv et al predicted , the so called sooper duper power is actually a pussy footed donkey .
Read that article again. US is toying with TSP. Its clear to all of us that US does not want to destroy TSP, and what it wants is a TSP that would do its bidding to the last dot.

So the US is doing TSPs bidding!

Thats has got to be the most lame excuse to pass off a downhill ski as a show of strength CramSji

The article is hilarious and can only be swallowed by a mass of really dumb Americans, who form the majority of people I am told. Suddenly. Very suddenly, the list of targets in Pakistan has dwindled to almost zero, the article says.

The US is no more brave with Pakistan than India. Both are kowtowing towards the really powerful adversary. the only difference is that the US is paying jiziya in dollars because it has more dollars than people. India is paying in lives.

Read this pathetic crap. I would not have bothered reading that sorry trash if you had not typed "read it again" as if it was good for even one read.

But thanks in part to the drone war, only a few senior members of the core Al Qaeda group are believed to be still alive there, including Bin Laden's successor, Ayman Zawahiri.

The CIA keeps a list of 20 top targets and "there have been times where they've struggled a little bit coming up with names to fill that list,"

Thooo! 3 weeks ago the program seemed to have no problem finding targets. Now its dried up. Saying that the US is "playing with Pakistan" is like the US is masturbating onto a map of Pakistan.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 25 Dec 2011 21:57

CRamS wrote:
gakakkad wrote:As Shiv et al predicted , the so called sooper duper power is actually a pussy footed donkey .
Read that article again. US is toying with TSP. Its clear to all of us that US does not want to destroy TSP, and what it wants is a TSP that would do its bidding to the last dot.

Actually so far it has been Pakistan toying with the US for the last 10 years!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Dec 2011 22:21

DocJi,

Are you telling me boss that there is anything comparable to MMS's abject surrender to TSP on 26/11. We have to hang our heads in shame, not only at TSP's brazen attack, but even reaping the rewards of that attack. US on the hand took out TSPA and then teases it with compensation. 1000s of drones have been launched. And need I remind you of taking out OBL from right under Kiyani's arse. Even now TSP is seeting in jealously, shame,and anger, but there is not a darn thing they do to US. Now, do I like US appeasement of TSP for larger geo-political reasons? No, of course not. But I don't draw any comfort from that by comparing US strategic appeasement of TSP with India's surrender. And neither do I advocate India follow in the footsteps of US. India may not deserve MMS/Sonia, but Indians are only to blame for having installed someone like them as their leaders.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Dec 2011 22:25

come on CRamS

the US can does this pussyfooting with someone who is oceans away - imagine if this was next door instead of mexico

thats out fate and our limitations

Don;t corner yourself into arguing like this

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Dec 2011 22:28

Surya wrote:
Don;t corner yourself into arguing like this

Just answer this question? So MMS's surrender to TSP on 26/11 is the best India could come up with?

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 25 Dec 2011 22:29

>> imagine if this was next door instead of mexico..

if it was mexico , they would increase the immigration quota for Mexicans to 50% . a true act of bravery indeed. surely befits a suer power....

>>Just answer this question? So MMS's surrender to TSP on 26/11 is the best India could come up with?

similar to amreeka's surrender to 9/11. both the acts were perpetrated by the pakis .

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Dec 2011 22:30

I don't understand what US does or does not do of any consequence to India's surrender to TSP, including on 26/11.

gakakkad · Post by **gakakkad** » 25 Dec 2011 22:32

>>I don't understand what US does or does not do of any consequence to India's surrender to TSP, including on 26/11.

no consequence saar. just doing an == .ie US==Yindia== tsp

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 25 Dec 2011 22:45

but CRams even if India meekly surrendered we are not the sooper dooper power??
so whats your point?? its more embarrassing for the hyper sooper dooper power to have its chaddi twisted by the very cretins they trained!!!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Dec 2011 22:45

gakakkad wrote:
no consequence saar. just doing an == .ie US==Yindia== tsp

Then you fall into a death trap. There is nothing TSP can do to US, Serving up some H&D to TSP in the form of US == TSP is something US can live with. All this BS about the mighty Al Queda launching attacks against US with dirty nukes is just that, wild fantasy, which US justified post 9/11 in a rambo fit of frenzy. Reality has now sunk in, and pragmatic objectives are the order of the day. And in any case, TSPA will gladly prevent any remotely possible attack on US, provided as you say, USA offers it sufficient H&D, with the key being India == TSP or even TSP >> India. Leave aside TSP >> India, but even India == TSP poses grave existential challenges to India in the future.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 25 Dec 2011 22:59

CRamS wrote:
gakakkad wrote:
no consequence saar. just doing an == .ie US==Yindia== tsp
Then you fall into a death trap. There is nothing TSP can do to US, Serving up some H&D to TSP in the form of US == TSP is something US can live with. All this BS about the mighty Al Queda launching attacks against US with dirty nukes is just that, wild fantasy, which US justified post 9/11 in a rambo fit of frenzy. Reality has now sunk in, and pragmatic objectives are the order of the day. And in any case, TSPA will gladly prevent any remotely possible attack on US, provided as you say, USA offers it sufficient H&D, with the key being India == TSP or even TSP >> India. Leave aside TSP >> India, but even India == TSP poses grave existential challenges to India in the future.

Let us see, Paki did the 9/11 costing America 3000+ lives, brought down two iconic buildings which were symbols of what America is all about, costing trillions of $$ to the American economy, sending American economy to a funk from which it hasn't still recovered, costing another over 1/2 trillion in Afghanistan and another 2000 (approx) American soldiders lives, etc.

And what has US done to Pakistan? Well so far has paid $22+ billions, and seems to be willing to pay more!

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 25 Dec 2011 23:51

Dipanker wrote:
Let us see, Paki did the 9/11 costing America 3000+ lives, brought down two iconic buildings which were symbols of what America is all about, costing trillions of $$ to the American economy, sending American economy to a funk from which it hasn't still recovered, costing another over 1/2 trillion in Afghanistan and another 2000 (approx) American soldiders lives, etc.

Come on, don't stretch facts to suit a particular PoV. While one can make an oblique connection between TSP & 9/11, I have't seen one credible report directly linking TSPA/ISI with 9/11.

Due to a confluence of factors, starting with US sharing the bed with Al Queda & ISI to root out the Soviets from Afghanistan, TSP in fact can be linked, albeit indirectly to 9/11. But if that is proof of direct TSP culpability, then US itself is culpable for 9/11, something US does not want to open up for debate for fear, and with good reason, that skeletons will come out of the closet. So, US has decided that Al Queda has served its purpose and must be eliminated post 9/11. US has pretty much has achieved that goal. US went a bit further and wanted Taliban too. But TSP said not so fast. Give us India on a silver platter, and then we'll consider your demand. Thats where we are.

shravan · Post by **shravan** » 26 Dec 2011 00:03

CRamS wrote: I have't seen one credible report directly linking TSPA/ISI with 9/11.

CRam Sir,

Osama & others who planned were caught or killed in Pakistan. Yet you say TSPA is not linked to 911.

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes ... ence-india

new delhi: while the pakistani inter services public relations claimed that former isi director-general lt-gen mahmud ahmad sought retirement after being superseded on monday, the truth is more shocking. top sources confirmed here on tuesday, that the general lost his job because of the "evidence" india produced to show his links to one of the suicide bombers that wrecked the world trade centre. the us authorities sought his removal after confirming the fact that $100,000 were wired to wtc hijacker mohammed atta from pakistan by ahmad umar sheikh at the instance of gen mahumd.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 26 Dec 2011 00:12

CRamS wrote:Give us India on a silver platter, and then we'll consider your demand. Thats where we are.

I think you are growing way too paranoid here. Again, who is the US to give India on a silver platter! What will they do exactly?
1. Help the Pakis train another Al-Quaida against India. CHECK
2. Help the Pakis with money to fund terrorism in the name of civilian assistance. CHECK
3. Help the Pakis with modern weapons that they can only dream of. CHECK
4. Be blind to the Pakis getting nukes and keeping India under Nuke threat umbrella. CHECK

The futility of all of these have been proven to the US before and if they continue on the same path, so be it. What is new? India will never be served on a silver platter to anyone unless Indians lose hope and believe so. Get some confidence, India has been there and seen that and is well on its way to progress. Well the same argument will again come up about the Indian polity, but they don't define the whole of India, so lets not be undue worried.

member_19648 · Post by **member_19648** » 26 Dec 2011 00:18

Btw, Zardari now tries hard to appeal to the masses, to avert any possible coup, after it seems Geelani and PA had some reconciliatory words.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/214 ... allow.html

Zardari asks people not to allow change through force
Islamabad, Dec 25 (PTI)

Against the backdrop of a row between Pakistan's civilian government and military over a memo alleging an army plot to seize power, President Asif Ali Zardari today asked people not to allow any change through ''force and intimidation''.

The ballot should be respected as the instrument of change, said Zardari, who has been facing pressure from the military establishment since Pakistani-American businessman Mansoor Ijaz made public the memo that sought the US help to stave off a coup in May.
In a message issued to mark the 136th birth anniversary of Pakistan's founder Muhammad Ali Jinnah, Zardari said: "The Quaid (Jinnah) believed that any change must be brought about by ballot and rejected change by bullet.

"Let us pledge that we will not allow any change through force and intimidation and respect the power of ballot as the instrument of change."

Amid rampant speculation about the President's resignation due to pressure from the military, Zardari said that during dictatorships in the past, the welfare of the people "took a back seat and security concerns became predominant as the country faced extremism and militancy".

"We need to create conditions whereby the welfare of the people is the dominant concern of the state," he said.

Zardari asked people to "forge unity in their ranks to preserve and protect their democratic and political rights and make Pakistan a country where egalitarianism prevailed".

The people should rededicate themselves to Jinnah's democratic ideals and principles and reiterate their resolve to defeat the forces "that seek to undermine the nation's founding principles", he said. Jinnah stood for "constitutionalism, rule of law, respect for human rights, pluralism and honouring the mandate of the people", Zardari said.

"We should never lose sight of our national goalpost. This indeed is our compass in a turbulent sea," he added.

"Let us pledge on this day to reclaim Quaid-e-Azam's Pakistan and unleash the creative powers of the people through freedom, justice, the rule of law and an end to terrorism and violence," Zardari said.

In a separate message, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani too asked the people to forge unity in their ranks and follow Jinnah's message of unity, faith and disciple to overcome challenges facing Pakistan.

Sharp differences have emerged between the government and the army over the memogate scandal.

The government has said President Zardari and Prime Minister Gilani played no role in drafting or delivering the memo to the then US military chief Admiral Mike Mullen.
The chiefs of the army and ISI have said there is adequate evidence that the memo exists.

They have asked the Supreme Court, which has admitted several petitions seeking a probe into the memogate scandal, to order an investigation.

The government has challenged the apex court's jurisdiction to hear these petitions, saying the matter is being investigated by a Parliamentary panel.

member_20317 · Post by **member_20317** » 26 Dec 2011 00:29

@CRamS.
Sometime back, I think it was Gerald Posner who said, how 3-4 men got snuffed out after Nau Do Gyarah. One I think was a Paki General of the Taiyaarah. Since then AgroKhanis have blown up a trillion on managing TSPA deeds. You cannot expect the Agrokhanis to spend so much if their is only an indirect link (as you imply) between Nau Do Gyarah and TSPA.

IOW if Pakis can be excused then so can the Saudi Wahabis be and then all the 'establishment' in US is all Pak Saaf. In which case nobody did Nau do gyarah just as nobody killed jessica.

I hope butting in uninvited is tolerated.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 26 Dec 2011 00:55

The only defense against paranoia is derision.

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Dec 2011 02:05

CRamS wrote:
Dipanker wrote:
Let us see, Paki did the 9/11 costing America 3000+ lives, brought down two iconic buildings which were symbols of what America is all about, costing trillions of $$ to the American economy, sending American economy to a funk from which it hasn't still recovered, costing another over 1/2 trillion in Afghanistan and another 2000 (approx) American soldiders lives, etc.

Come on, don't stretch facts to suit a particular PoV. While one can make an oblique connection between TSP & 9/11, I have't seen one credible report directly linking TSPA/ISI with 9/11.

Due to a confluence of factors, starting with US sharing the bed with Al Queda & ISI to root out the Soviets from Afghanistan, TSP in fact can be linked, albeit indirectly to 9/11. But if that is proof of direct TSP culpability, then US itself is culpable for 9/11, something US does not want to open up for debate for fear, and with good reason, that skeletons will come out of the closet. So, US has decided that Al Queda has served its purpose and must be eliminated post 9/11. US has pretty much has achieved that goal. US went a bit further and wanted Taliban too. But TSP said not so fast. Give us India on a silver platter, and then we'll consider your demand. Thats where we are.

OMG You seriously believe what you wrote here?? It may be good idea for you to read BRF archives!

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 26 Dec 2011 02:35

Dipanker, CRamS is right in this case, despite what you may have read in BRF archives.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Dec 2011 03:00

Abhi Coo nahi hua hai
Pakistan Information Minister Withdraws Resignation

ISLAMABAD (Reuters) - Pakistan's information minister withdrew her resignation on Sunday, hours after she offered to quit amid tensions between the civilian government and the country's powerful military over a memo alleging an army plot to seize power in May.
Information Minister Firdos Ashiq Awan made the surprise announcement at a televised cabinet meeting but Prime Minister Yuaasuf Raja Gilani later persuaded her to withdraw resignation. "The prime minister tore down my resignation and asked me to continue my work," Information Minister Firdos Ashiq Awan told reporters after the cabinet meeting . Some media reports suggested that Awan offered to resign over criticism within the ruling party over her perceived failure to defend the government in the "memogate" scandal, as it is being called in Pakistan. Tensions have been running high between the government and the powerful army after the scandal surfaced, raising concerns for the region and for Pakistan's already uneasy relationship with its key ally, the United States. ansoor Ijaz, an American businessman of Pakistan origin, wrote in a column in the Financial Times on October 10 that a senior Pakistani diplomat had asked that a memo be delivered to the Pentagon with a plea for U.S. help to stave off a military coup in the days after the raid that killed al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden in May. jaz later identified the diplomat as Pakistan's ambassador to Washington, Husain Haqqani, who denied involvement but resigned over the controversy

sunnyP · Post by **sunnyP** » 26 Dec 2011 03:02

The actor is back.

Islamabad: Former Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi on Sunday launched a scathing attack on the government's handling of Pakistan's nuclear programme, claiming President Asif Ali Zardari's statement on "no first use" of atomic weapons against
India had undermined national security.

http://m.ibnlive.com/news/pak-exfm-qure ... 15002.html

How seriously should one take Imran Khan's party?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 Dec 2011 03:12

Talking about Meesna Minna Djinnha by Pakhistan!! Complainting Poaqs went down after becoming more Islamic.
They keep,living the old lies.

Word on the street: what was Jinnah's vision?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iJ_qHYs ... r_embedded#!

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Dec 2011 03:59

Nandu wrote:Dipanker, CRamS is right in this case, despite what you may have read in BRF archives.

Right in the sense that Pakistan is not responsible for 9/11 ?? And US is culpable for 9/11??

Give me break!

Dipanker · Post by **Dipanker** » 26 Dec 2011 04:05

sunnyP wrote:The actor is back.

Islamabad: Former Foreign Minister Shah Mahmood Qureshi on Sunday launched a scathing attack on the government's handling of Pakistan's nuclear programme, claiming President Asif Ali Zardari's statement on "no first use" of atomic weapons against
India had undermined national security.
http://m.ibnlive.com/news/pak-exfm-qure ... 15002.html

How seriously should one take Imran Khan's party?

Not very seriously. The power still will be in the Khakis hand and his will be just another ineffective "civilian" govt.

Unless and until there is a coup against the military itself, and military right role is restored i.e. to be subservient to the civilian govt. the cycle will just repeat.

Paki are setting themselves for yet another big disappointment!

This self admitting ball tamperer and philanderer who disowned his own lovechild when the poor kid had just lost her mother, is the new savior of Pakistan? Yeah right!

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 26 Dec 2011 05:26

Dipanker wrote:
Nandu wrote:Dipanker, CRamS is right in this case, despite what you may have read in BRF archives.
Right in the sense that Pakistan is not responsible for 9/11 ?? And US is culpable for 9/11??

Give me break!

If you read in to his comments something that is not there, and then ask it to be defended, well....

Here is your break:

Anindya · Post by **Anindya** » 26 Dec 2011 06:53

These guys are in the middle of meltdown - financial and political - yet, do not give up on terrorism. More reason to believe that terrorism is part of Pakistani culture, as opposed to something that take on tactically.

Pakistan violates ceasefire, gives cover to infiltrating ultras

Violating the ceasefire yet again, Pakistani troops today targeted Indian posts with small arms fire to give cover fire to a group of infiltrating militants along the LoC in Poonch district.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 26 Dec 2011 07:17

Dipanker wrote:
OMG You seriously believe what you wrote here?? It may be good idea for you to read BRF archives!

Yes I do. I rely on hard facts, and insight based on years of experience with US govt, its people, and foreign policy. Yes, I have read BR archives, and to me, US is much culpable as TSP is for 9/11 if one wants to really, really introspect. I am of course referring to the skeletons in the closet that both US and TSP have from the time Afghan jihad was launched to fight Soviets. And I know all about that money transfers to Atta etc. I know US well, and believe me, if there was such a direct link between TSP and 9/11, TSP would have been nuked post 9/11, such was the atmosphere for revenge.

My last try to set aside emotions and see US strategy for what it is. US has lost stomach for fighting after all the initial rambo style attitude with which it went in. Recall even US jingoistic reporters, football players wanted to get OBL; all of them looking for great rewards, went to Afghanistan, and came back dead or like a bunch of losers after experiencing reality. Right now, US wants to cut & run, having realized that pretty much their mission is accomplished when looked at through lens of hard-nosed pragmatism. Taliban, under the tutelage of TSP RAPE is not going to attack US, they are reserved for attacking us SDREs. "Mighty" Al Queda has been annihilated. US has enough peeping tom toys installed worldwide, and humInt to watch the shadow of every Muslim even remotely connected to terror against whites including Israel. Bay area and other torture camps run by CIA is overflowing with with Muslim terror suspects.

Bottom line: as far as AfPak end game is concerned, its a question of how much US is willing to give TSP, and at what point TSP will settle so US can claim "victory". And of course, the wild card is India, we know what TSP wants visa vi India. But how much US is demanding from India, and to what extent MMS can maneuver opposition in India and loyally obey US orders is what remains to be seen. But make no mistake about it, TSP has lived to fight another day with India. And in this, I am with you. US has actually rewarded a terrorist abomination, but where you and I disagree is that US has done so strategically, not out of cowardice as you & DocJi and others seem to imply.

arun · Post by **arun** » 26 Dec 2011 07:59

X Posted from the Oppression of Minorities in Pakistan thread.

Persecution of members belonging to the majority Mohammadden religion though of the minority Ahmadi / Ahmadiyya / Ahmedi sect in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan:

Harassment: Three Ahmedis accused under blasphemy laws

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 Dec 2011 08:27

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/26/world ... ml?_r=1&hp

above article confirms no more drone strikes or intrusive GUBO sessions. pakis have agreed to dye and track their ammonium nitrate fertilizer for easier tracking of IED's back to TSP!

the only +ve for india mentioned is a reduction in the US freebies and military aid.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 26 Dec 2011 08:34

U.S. Prepares for a Curtailed Relationship With Pakistan: NY Times

“We’ve closed the chapter on the post-9/11 period,” said a senior United States official, who requested anonymity to avoid antagonizing Pakistani officials. “Pakistan has told us very clearly that they are re-evaluating the entire relationship.” With American diplomats essentially waiting quietly and Central Intelligence Agency drone strikes on hold since Nov. 16 — the longest pause since 2008 — Pakistan’s government is drawing up what Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gilani called “red lines” for a new relationship that protects his country’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.

Officials from Pakistan and the United States anticipate steep reductions in American security aid, including the continued suspension of more than $1 billion in military assistance and equipment, frozen since the American raid that killed Osama bin Laden in Pakistan in May. With Pakistan taking a seat on the United Nations Security Council for two years beginning next month, these officials argued that too much was at stake to rupture ties completely. “It is better to have a predictable, more focused relationship than an incredibly ambitious out-of-control relationship,” said one Western official. But another Western diplomat put it more bluntly: “It’s a fairly gloomy picture.”

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Dec 2011 10:37

So, officially, a new relationship is set to begin between the US & TSP. Just like after 1989. Normally, every US-TSP marriage is followed by a brief period of divorce. What is the alimony ? The post 9/11 agreements between the US & Musharraf are all dead now. Did Pakistan provoke the Salala fight just in order to begin a new life because the US was holding its nose to those ? Probably, Pakistan believes that it stands to gain much more from any possible new arrangement.

abhischekcc · Post by **abhischekcc** » 26 Dec 2011 11:02

CRamS wrote:
Dipanker wrote:
Let us see, Paki did the 9/11 costing America 3000+ lives, brought down two iconic buildings which were symbols of what America is all about, costing trillions of $$ to the American economy, sending American economy to a funk from which it hasn't still recovered, costing another over 1/2 trillion in Afghanistan and another 2000 (approx) American soldiders lives, etc.

Come on, don't stretch facts to suit a particular PoV. While one can make an oblique connection between TSP & 9/11, I have't seen one credible report directly linking TSPA/ISI with 9/11.

Due to a confluence of factors, starting with US sharing the bed with Al Queda & ISI to root out the Soviets from Afghanistan, TSP in fact can be linked, albeit indirectly to 9/11. But if that is proof of direct TSP culpability, then US itself is culpable for 9/11, something US does not want to open up for debate for fear, and with good reason, that skeletons will come out of the closet. So, US has decided that Al Queda has served its purpose and must be eliminated post 9/11. US has pretty much has achieved that goal. US went a bit further and wanted Taliban too. But TSP said not so fast. Give us India on a silver platter, and then we'll consider your demand. Thats where we are.

I have.

Just in the aftermath of 9/11, Indian Intelligence told the Americans, and leaked to the press too, that the ISI chief had wired $100,000 to Mohammad Atta - the head of the 9/11 hijackers' group.

Incidentally, ISI chief was in Washington in a meeting with the CIA head even as the hijackings were in operation. Makes you wonder, does it not, whether those two were monitoring the operations of their own people?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Dec 2011 11:54

CRamS wrote:where you and I disagree is that US has done so strategically, not out of cowardice as you & DocJi and others seem to imply.

CRamS, the US elites have used the Paks strategically, but now they are also in a bind, because of the nuke factor. As one Amreeki analyst had rightly said, TSP minus nukes equals Nigeria, but with nukes it changes everything.

They had assumed that the nukes would be directed only against India, but now their nightmare is nuke proliferation that could threaten Israel or themselves. Basically, TSP has outlived its "use by" date, and is now causing a headache.

The question is whether they will be successful in getting India to do the dirty work (perhaps with nudges from Headley types), or will they have to take it on themselves.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 26 Dec 2011 12:40

CRamS wrote:DocJi,

Are you telling me boss that there is anything comparable to MMS's abject surrender to TSP on 26/11. We have to hang our heads in shame, not only at TSP's brazen attack, but even reaping the rewards of that attack. US on the hand took out TSPA and then teases it with compensation. 1000s of drones have been launched. And need I remind you of taking out OBL from right under Kiyani's arse. Even now TSP is seeting in jealously, shame,and anger, but there is not a darn thing they do to US. Now, do I like US appeasement of TSP for larger geo-political reasons? No, of course not. But I don't draw any comfort from that by comparing US strategic appeasement of TSP with India's surrender. And neither do I advocate India follow in the footsteps of US. India may not deserve MMS/Sonia, but Indians are only to blame for having installed someone like them as their leaders.

TSP did 9/11 attacks on US and was rewarded with taxpayer billions. It is time to issue death certificate to the myth that US handling of TSP is tougher and more effective than India's.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 26 Dec 2011 12:43

CRamS wrote:
Surya wrote:
Don;t corner yourself into arguing like this
Just answer this question? So MMS's surrender to TSP on 26/11 is the best India could come up with?

That's a question for India without reference to US and can be a separate discussion, once we agree to the de-hyphenation of India and US when it comes to dealing with TSP.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 26 Dec 2011 12:48

CRamS wrote:
gakakkad wrote:
no consequence saar. just doing an == .ie US==Yindia== tsp
Then you fall into a death trap. There is nothing TSP can do to US, Serving up some H&D to TSP in the form of US == TSP is something US can live with. All this BS about the mighty Al Queda launching attacks against US with dirty nukes is just that, wild fantasy, which US justified post 9/11 in a rambo fit of frenzy. Reality has now sunk in, and pragmatic objectives are the order of the day. And in any case, TSPA will gladly prevent any remotely possible attack on US, provided as you say, USA offers it sufficient H&D, with the key being India == TSP or even TSP >> India. Leave aside TSP >> India, but even India == TSP poses grave existential challenges to India in the future.

CRamS you know that TSP did and is doing plenty to the US. 9/11 for one thing. Openly and brazenly killing American soldiers with American-paid weapons for another. US has simply been lying to its people about it which is easy because Americans are generally ignorant like Herman Cain. Their rage and all that flag waving after9/11 meant nothing. TSP is at least as responsible for 9/11 as Afghanistan.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 26 Dec 2011 12:54

Another Laal Masjid Crisis Looming - Edit in DT

The latest controversy has emerged with regard to the rebuilding of the women’s seminary, which was adjacent to the Laal Masjid (Red Mosque) before the municipal authority demolished it after the 2007 military operation. Although conceding to Interior Minister Rehman Malik’s request to delay the foundation-laying ceremony plan by a week to arrange an alternative piece of land for the seminary, Maulana Aziz has warned the government that any delaying tactics could lead to a bloody confrontation similar to the 2007 one, in which 110 suspected militants and several troops were killed. Later, the Supreme Court (SC) in its judgement had given CDA orders to rebuild the female seminary at the same location. However, the CDA was reluctant to comply with the SC’s orders. At the same time, the place originally belongs to the Ministry of Education but had been occupied by Laal Masjid clerics as they had illegally built Jamia Hafsa there.

The rift between the CDA and Laal Masjid clerics is expanding day by day and now it has reached a point where, if not handled strongly and decisively, it might result in strengthening the extremist elements in the country’s capital once again. To make the situation more complicated, Laal Masjid’s Imam Maulana Abdul Aziz has refused to accept any alternative place that does not match the price of the land on which Jamia Hafsa was originally built. Given past experiences, his threats have to be taken seriously.

With due respect to the SC, its decision in this regard is being seen as unwise by certain quarters. The teachers and students of this seminary had created a serious breach of the rule of law and practiced vigilante justice in the land. They set up an illegal Shariah court, claiming jurisdiction over the area. The location where the Laal Masjid is situated is a high-security zone, as it is surrounded by buildings and offices of the country’s government and intelligence services. The rebuilding of Jamia Hafsa on the same location is equivalent to giving the extremist elements with a fanatical jihadi mindset another chance to recreate tension in the capital that led the previous government to launch a military operation against them. If rebuilding has to be allowed, then it should be built at another place removed from the heart of the capital. *

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 26 Dec 2011 16:02

http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111226.htm

Pakistan government is seriously contemplating the removal of powerful army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and ISI head Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha against the backdrop of a standoff on a memo alleging an army plot to seize power, a media report said on Monday.

The government's "extreme unhappiness" with Kayani, currently on a three-year extension, and Pasha, who received a one-year extension in service last year, is an "open secret", The News daily quoted its sources as saying.

The two generals have been held responsible for forcing Pakistan to adopt an "extremely harsh stance" towards the US after last month's NATO air strike, the report said.

They also "adopted a diabolically opposing stance to that of the government" on the alleged memo that sought US help to stave off a possible military coup in Pakistan in May.

Rajdeep · Post by **Rajdeep** » 26 Dec 2011 16:53

krishnan wrote:http://www.rediff.com/news/slide-show/s ... 111226.htm

Pakistan government is seriously contemplating the removal of powerful army chief Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and ISI head Lt Gen Ahmed Shuja Pasha against the backdrop of a standoff on a memo alleging an army plot to seize power, a media report said on Monday.

If they have the Ba**s let them do it

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 26 Dec 2011 17:10

As a corollary does Iqball Kiyanahi have the other ball to stage a coup? The beghairat na-paak army is deflecting a lot of unwashed Abdul anger towards 10 percenti. The rage boys loathe 10% for sure but their love for Fauj has taken a severe beating in the aftermath of the failure of fauj to protect the Sheik. A flurry of Hilale awards to Cheena Gubomaster points towards a lot of Chinese influence towards maintaining an uneasy peace. A army ruled Bakistan is extra burden on the Cheena master as a lot of trade concessions extended to Bakistan will have to be withdrawn by the west regardless of whether they want to do it or not.