India-US Relations : News and Discussion- II

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Dec 2015 01:19

That is what I said earlier. His brother's details are missing from news if he has one as claimed...a veteran too. The three letter agency was at the site very early itself....and they were not outright calling it terrorism. He or his brother was an asset in GWOT operations....which went wrong for some reason we will never know. This morning on tv, the family attorneys claimed the two were in handcuffs (?) and amount of ammo was not unusually high which was stock piled at home. The devices they had did not work either...or maybe it does not exist too. Who knows ? All a nice yarn, except lots of innocent lives were affected by the two or is it three.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Dec 2015 02:21

Bade wrote:That is what I said earlier. His brother's details are missing from news if he has one as claimed...a veteran too. The three letter agency was at the site very early itself....and they were not outright calling it terrorism. He or his brother was an asset in GWOT operations....which went wrong for some reason we will never know. This morning on tv, the family attorneys claimed the two were in handcuffs (?) and amount of ammo was not unusually high which was stock piled at home. The devices they had did not work either...or maybe it does not exist too. Who knows ? All a nice yarn, except lots of innocent lives were affected by the two or is it three.

I'm starting to think so as well. I think the brother went full jihadi and recruited Farooq. Brother would've known more about the Pakjabi wife so sent Farooq to marry her. May have been talking to her for a long time. How the hell did she get past US intel with her kind of background? It's possible that the brother double crossed his handlers. I think this may have been some premature jihadi operation. Why hasn't the FBI cordoned the properties? The media broke in and now its all f*cked. Very fishy.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Dec 2015 02:52

You guys seein this?! Oh my, this would make Burkha so jealous.

https://twitter.com/nycjim/status/672837467381321728

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Dec 2015 03:09

One of the FBI guys interrogating the family, is a full bearded, shalwar wearing mullah! Undercover FBI mullah

Massa knows its Pakis well

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Dec 2015 03:11

So Farooq was talking to extremists for years and was being monitored by US intel. Investigations were all closed. Hmm...Someone went rogue.

https://twitter.com/LinaArabii/status/6 ... 5095739392

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Dec 2015 03:36

https://twitter.com/ABC/status/67291101 ... wsrc%5Etfw

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 05 Dec 2015 09:39

Bade wrote:On CNN yesterday, the neighbors of Malik who were interviewed mentioned the name Tatiana, so now Tashfeen is same person and is of Russian origin. It is getting murkier only.

I see some reports saying that the Russian one (Tatiana) is actually the wife of the older brother, the one who was in the military.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 05 Dec 2015 09:56

ArmenT wrote:
Bade wrote:On CNN yesterday, the neighbors of Malik who were interviewed mentioned the name Tatiana, so now Tashfeen is same person and is of Russian origin. It is getting murkier only.
I see some reports saying that the Russian one (Tatiana) is actually the wife of the older brother, the one who was in the military.

Sounds like a mess.

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 05 Dec 2015 09:59

Probably right that she was the sis in law. That also explains why she did not know about Shyte happening. No way on earth the kendo stix jihadi would have shared, considering the infidel background of sis in law.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 05 Dec 2015 15:30

Toughshi* Mailk could be Islamist deep cover sent over after Lal Masjid incident.

She is definitely Rural Islamist Pakistani Elite (RIPE).

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Dec 2015 16:16

The daily mail has more pics and vidoes: Link
The hubby - Syed Farook

Syed Farook - after.

Pipe bombs

JE Menon · Post by **JE Menon** » 05 Dec 2015 17:01

Good thing the Amirkhan cops are armed to the teeth. These fu(kers could have killed a lot more people if they got away.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2015 17:06

David headley v2 it looks like..

they had 1000 rounds in car and 2000 more at home.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Dec 2015 17:08

under the armed kabila thing it seems ppl from 7 agencies were in that epic firefight. good depth in team there...they bat deep.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Dec 2015 18:03

From Twitter:

1 of the injured victims of the #sanbernardino shootings was a Muslim social worker. She was shot multiple times by Farook!

Hmm, I wonder why?
- So that he would not be identified? Surely his beard might be popping out of his mask
- Not green enough now? Guy thought, kill that munafiq - more poisonous than a kafir. Bottom line, he paid special attention to the supposed munafiq and shot more bullets at her.

My theory: If these guys can't kill kafirs, they'll kill munafiqs. And the corollary goes like, "If a munafiq and a kafir get captured by these terrorists together, they'll torture and kill the munafiq first"

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Dec 2015 18:18

Timothy Egan in the NYTimes:

"And politicians of another cowardly type will refuse to see that hundreds, maybe thousands of the world’s 1.6 billion Muslims find justification for mass murder of innocent people in their holy book."

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/opini ... ayers.html

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 05 Dec 2015 18:29

1.6 billion sounds like too big a number...
I thought it was about 1.2 billion or so...

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Dec 2015 18:58

^^^

. The point is NYT OpEd liberals are no longer buying the "Islam has nothing to do with Terrorism" meme.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 05 Dec 2015 21:13

why the hand-cuffs after the chap was taken down ? something is seriously off here.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Dec 2015 21:32

Moved from the STFUP thread because it is about US police practices.

^^^ A 2007 article from the NYT
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/18/nyregion/18cuffs.html

Critics of the policy concede that handcuffing is acceptable to keep a shot person from doing further violence to himself or others, particularly if he may still be armed or in psychiatric distress. But several people said that police officials ought to re-examine the one-size-fits-all nature of the policy, particularly if the shot person is clearly incapacitated or dead from the bullets.

Ronald L. Kuby, a civil rights lawyer who has represented clients shot and handcuffed by the police, said the practice could leave an impression of harsh treatment, even when a shooting was justified.

“Cuffing people after they’ve been shot, or when they’re dead, or when they’re dying,” Mr. Kuby said, “is one of the ugliest, most barbaric, unnecessarily horrifying things that the police do, and they do it as a matter of course.”

Thomas D. Nerney, who retired in 2002 as a detective in the Police Department’s Major Case Squad, said officers relied on rules to survive in shooting situations.

Mr. Nerney, who was in four gunfights in his career, said that the rigor of the handcuffing rule “removes the discretion from a police officer saying, ‘Should I or shouldn’t I?’ because either way you can be damned.”

But in police encounters, there is often a wide gulf between perception and reality, said a Police Department official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak for the agency.
.....
“Just because it might not look pretty,” the police official said, “doesn’t mean what the police are doing is not a good thing.”

That is, in the NYPD of 2007 at least, it is the rule in a shooting situation that the suspect is handcuffed unconditionally, whether alive, wounded or not, or dying or dead.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 05 Dec 2015 21:35

Moved from STFUP thread, because it is about US police practice.

Here's another, more recent article:
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2014/08/wh ... eople.html
"Why Cops Handcuff Dead People"

In short, because they're trained to. Below are some guidelines from the August edition of The Police Chief, a law-enforcement publication, on what cops should do in situations like this (hat tip to Joshua Holland for pointing this out to me). They're based at least in part on a Justice Department research project called Preventing Violence Against Law Enforcement and Ensuring Officer Resilience and Survivability, or VALOR:

Lesson 8: Handcuff all downed suspects. Some officers might feel that it is not nice to handcuff suspects that have been shot, and others might believe that it is unnecessary to cuff all suspects because some are “obviously” dead. Counted among the suspects shot during incidents that officers reported during the VALOR interviews were some who appeared to be dead—for example, from multiple rifle rounds to the head—but who were still alive. As noted in the introduction, some human beings have a remarkable capacity to survive gunshot wounds. Fortunately, none of the thoughtdead offenders managed to injure any officers interviewed, but the fact that they were still alive meant that they maintained the capacity to do so. The capacity of downed suspects is hindered substantially when they are cuffed. No matter how severely injured they might be, therefore, all downed suspects should be handcuffed.

As Brian Beutler pointed out in The New Republic, there are many aspects of police protocol that come across as cruel or strange to civilians. This certainly fits in that category.

The thirteen lessons are here:
http://www.policechiefmagazine.org/maga ... e_id=52012

Lesson 1: Make sure you have sufficient officers to make a safe approach.
Lesson 2: Develop a plan to take the suspect into custody before moving to do so.
Lesson 3: Make sure every officer on the scene is aware of at least the basics of whatever plan is developed.
Lesson 4: Avoid cross fire situations.
Lesson 5: Identify designated lethal cover officers and have all other officers take other roles in the post-shooting environment.
Lesson 6: Someone usually needs to take command.
Lesson 7: Move weapons the suspect possessed from the suspect’s reach.
Lesson 8: Handcuff all downed suspects.
Lesson 9: Thoroughly search all downed suspects after they have been cuffed.
Lesson 10: Search the area for additional suspects.
Lesson 11: Be aware that perceptual distortions can be clouding understanding of the event.
Lesson 12: Do not hesitate to request specialized assets if the situation calls for doing so.
Lesson 13: When requesting assistance to deal with a downed suspect, tell the officers who will be responding where you want them to deploy and provide information about a safe route .

I found this from lesson 11. interesting, I wonder how it affects soldiers on the battle field?

The vast majority of the 198 officers thus far interviewed reported experiencing tunnel vision, diminished hearing, or both at some time during the incidents they related to the interviewer. Because officers typically do not process visual and auditory information during shootings as they normally would, it is important to realize in the immediate wake of gunfire that officers might not have all the relevant information that will permit them to invoke the appropriate postshooting safety procedures. What this suggests is that officers should consider taking a moment or two to assess the state of their vision and hearing before they move on to dealing with downed suspects. If they do not, officers might miss some information that is critical to the task of safely dealing with the immediate aftermath of a shooting.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 05 Dec 2015 21:53

Rahul M wrote:why the hand-cuffs after the chap was taken down ? something is seriously off here.

If there was a third person firing from inside the vehicle and was taken down inside it, then it is not reported. No one needs to know basis. If both were handcuffed while inside the vehicle, then who was this third person ? They did not leave the vicinity of the crime...this is taken as possible evidence that they were planning for more mayhem...plausible...a third person was seen running away from the home or was it the vehicle....so much fud....and nothing will be known with any certainty. The mother was living in the same home upstairs is being claimed now on TV news/opinion. How come she did not see any unusual activity at the home ? Sister is on record on TV claiming they did not know the wife very well, though he has been married for 2 years...New clothes ordered online which arrived after the incident....does not add up as the attorneys for the family is claiming....there is more to it....only thing we know is he left the party after an argument and was seen to be there during the shooting...and lives were lost.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 05 Dec 2015 22:21

Singha wrote:under the armed kabila thing it seems ppl from 7 agencies were in that epic firefight. good depth in team there...they bat deep.

Over 300 personnel IIRC. I am guessing interagency coordination improved after 9/11.

saip · Post by **saip** » 05 Dec 2015 22:27

I think hand cuffing after the perpetrator is down is the SOP. Only in movies we see it differently especially Hindi movies. Then the villain who is down gets up and has another fight with the hero so that the hero can be shown to be justified in killing him.

saip · Post by **saip** » 05 Dec 2015 22:33

The equipment they used is worth more than 30k. Where did they get the money? He is just a county employee and do not think make a lot of money. His pay was 50k.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 05 Dec 2015 22:33

Rahul M wrote:why the hand-cuffs after the chap was taken down ? something is seriously off here.

aur kya aap ye maanoge ki neeche ke dono tasweere ek hi ke hai, ya, neeche ke teen me se koyee do tasweere ek hi ke ho sakte hai?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 05 Dec 2015 22:57

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ . The point is NYT OpEd liberals are no longer buying the "Islam has nothing to do with Terrorism" meme.

Thats the tricky part. Even if everybody non Muslim, liberal or not, acknowledges that so much terrorism by Muslims has something to do with Islam, how does it change anything? The other extreme, "terror has no religion" garbage that is prevalent in India doesn't do any good either.

Assuming all the Muslim clergy in the world get together and recast the Quaran such that all the questionable passages about killing kafirs are removed, and every current version of Quaran is destroyed to the extent possible, and a new version is made the norm, even then, would it be possible several generations hence to see a reformed version of Islam?

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 05 Dec 2015 22:58

The body in the above picture has a bra on it. Its kendo bibi.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 05 Dec 2015 23:08

So, non kendos don't wear bra

Main question is why does this frigging crime be so shrouded in mystery that public does not even get a good photo of perpetrators and when something comes up it raises more questions than bring clarity?

These mofos take almost everything into CT territory.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 05 Dec 2015 23:37

Trump will definitely not agree.

Trump said kendo bibis don't need makeup. By the same logic, kendos don't need clothes inside of hijab incuding undergarments. So, by his logic, that image cannot be of kendo bibi

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 05 Dec 2015 23:46

saip wrote:The equipment they used is worth more than 30k. Where did they get the money? He is just a county employee and do not think make a lot of money. His pay was 50k.

What was suspicious was his bank statement. It showed he had $63,735.36 in his bank account and a couple of recent Western Union money transfers to it.
See after about 1:35 in this video.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 05 Dec 2015 23:59

Top executives from Tata, L&T, M&M & Reliance to flank Manohar Parrikar on maiden visit to US

Two Indo-US working groups on highend technology are already functional, one focussing on aircraft carrier technology and the other on jet engines, with significant milestones reached in the latter.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 06 Dec 2015 00:02

India, US make progress on jet engine, aircraft career co-op

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 06 Dec 2015 00:03

Moved here from TSP thread

This might be his brother who served in the military with his russian / eastern european wife.

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 06 Dec 2015 00:04

^^^Yep. That is not the perps and most likely had no clue (IMO).

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 06 Dec 2015 03:15

xpost : connection between UC Merced incident and the current California shooting..

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2015 06:51

Amber G. wrote:xpost : connection between UC Merced incident and the current California shooting..

We may see all these connections but it is becoming increasingly clear that:

1. A wholesome American born guy can't do these things, just like a good Muslim cannot conduct terror attacks
2. Islam cannot be blamed. No Islamophobia or Xenophobia
3. The easy availability of guns cannot be responsible for the occurrence of shootings with multiple deaths
4. Pakistan itself is a democracy and an ally of the US. Pakistan cannot be blamed
5. IS will soon start claiming credit for tornadoes in the US because the US is so safe, so what the IS says can be discounted

The blame for the San Bernadino shooting must rest with someone who is not American, whose religion is irrelevant, whose weapon of choice is irrelevant and the connection with a US ally is speculative at best. An IS plot is possible but it looks like a lone wolf with family issues. Sad, but it goes to show that even a really safe country like the US is not immune to insanity and tornadoes. More research funds need to be put into why people feel the urge to kill, even in America I am sure Pakistan can help with the investigation.

On the subject of research - I always wondered why some no brainer research material about gun injuries was unavailable in the US. Here is the answer:
Congress quietly renewed a ban on gun-violence research

"The CDC is there to look at diseases that need to be dealt with to protect public health," House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) said at a press conference last week.

"I'm sorry, but a gun is not a disease. Guns don't kill people - people do. And when people use weapons in a horrible way, we should condemn the actions of the individual and not blame the action on some weapon."

Cars and cigarettes must be diseases, hence research about car deaths and cigarette related deaths is allowed because this is the land of freedom.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 06 Dec 2015 07:35

^^^ shiv! now you may understand why Americans and Pakistanis get along so well, they both shut out anything that may collide with their ideology. Because research on gun deaths might bring up inconvenient facts, that research is shutdown. Because some NASA satellites might make the evidence for climate change incontrovertible, they are trying to shutdown that program. Because liberals are committed to the idea that the truth about Islam will lead to persecution of a minority, they stubbornly stick to the "religion of peace", "terrorism has no religion". Etc, etc. it is only us SDREs that on our better days, go with Satyameva Jayate, or Veritas Liberabit.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 06 Dec 2015 07:41

A_Gupta wrote:^^^ shiv! now you may understand why Americans and Pakistanis get along so well, they both shut out anything that may collide with their ideology. Because research on gun deaths might bring up inconvenient facts, that research is shutdown. Because some NASA satellites might make the evidence for climate change incontrovertible, they are trying to shutdown that program. Because liberals are committed to the idea that the truth about Islam will lead to persecution of a minority, they stubbornly stick to the "religion of peace", "terrorism has no religion". Etc, etc. it is only us SDREs that on our better days, go with Satyameva Jayate, or Veritas Liberabit.

Ah thanks! I had noticed the connection but you have given a credible explanation for it. I mean I understood that both Pakistan and the US doggedly stick to certain self declarations about themselves - did not realize the underlying mechanism, at least for the US. You have turned on a light in my mind.

Satya_anveshi · Post by **Satya_anveshi** » 06 Dec 2015 08:59

I posted this news couple days ago in Positive news thread:

Satya_anveshi wrote:Hours before San Bernardino shooting, doctors urged Congress to lift funding ban on gun violence research WaPo - Dec 02, 2015

"It’s ironic," Price said in an interview Wednesday evening, after the extent of the carnage in California became clearer. "It certain does underscore what we were saying earlier today about the scourge of gun violence, which has become such a feature of our daily lives."

"It just affects the basic things we care about in public health – the mortality, the life expectancy, morbidity, mental health. It affects all of those things in pretty profound ways," Webster said of gun violence. "If we had a disease that was killing as many people as our guns in our country, we would devote a lot more resources to make sure we had the best data, the best research to know what is most affected."

On Oct 1st, there was a mass shooting at UCC (community college) in Oregon. After that Obama gave this speech:

President Obama condemned the mass shooting at an Oregon college on Thursday, but added that "our thoughts and prayers are not enough" to stem this tide of violence. "There's been another mass shooting in America," Obama said at the White House. Obama said he has been to Roseburg, Ore., where the shooting took place, and "there are really good people there." "Somehow this has become routine," Obama said. "The reporting has become routine. My response here, from this podium, has become routine." President Obama lamented the fact that he was making comments about yet another shooting – this time at a community college in Oregon – saying the process has become “routine” for him and new families who mourn the loss of loved ones. “I hope and pray that I don’t have to come out again in my tenure as president to offer my condolences to families under these circumstances. But based on my experience as president, I can’t guarantee that,” the president said in the White House briefing room. The shooting, which left at least 20 people dead and injured, according to the governor's office, took place Thursday morning at Umpqua Community College in Roseburg, Oregon. The identity of the 20-year-old shooter has not been released. The president said that just as his remarks on shootings have become routine, so too have the reactions from politicians and opponents of stricter gun regulations. “Somewhere will comment and say, ‘Obama politicized this issue.’ Well, this is something we should politicize. It is relevant to our common life together, to the body politic,” he said. Rather than shying away from the political dimension to mass shootings, the president leaned in to it, saying that Thursday’s events were direct products of political decisions – those made by lawmakers and by those who elect them. “We collectively are answerable to those families, who lose their loved ones because of our inaction,” he said. In a veiled reference to groups like the National Rifle Association which has opposed most of the president’s efforts to tighten gun purchasing laws, he urged firearms owners to reconsider their affiliation with the group. “I would particularly ask America’s gun owners, who are using those guns properly, safely, to hunt, for sport, or protecting their families, to think about whether your views are properly being represented by the organization that suggests it’s speaking for you,” he said.

On Nov4th, there was stabbing incident at Univ of Calif Merced allegedly perpetrated by US born Paki.

On Nov 25th, To console people after Nov13th Paris event, Obama gave a speech and said there is ‘no specific and credible intelligence’ of U.S. terrorist plot over Thanksgiving

On Dec 02, there was a petition to US Congress to lift ban on gun violence research and within hours of that San B incident happened.