India-US Strategic News and Discussion

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 May 2014 07:05

This thread now reads like a transcript of a Lok Sabha proceeding, with chairs flying and all.
Several items of confusion:
1.

India has what they call exit migration check. When your nephews and nieces are leaving India, they will be asked, "Where is your visa to enter the US?"
Your nephews and nieces will reply, "I do not need visa. I have US passport to enter the US."
Immigration officer will say ... you know what he will say. You catch the drift.

Er... that is not the question they will ask, since the Exiter is not showing his/her Indian passport.
The proper question is: "When did u enter India and y is it not appearing on yuwar US bassport onlee?" at which point the fat is in the fire.
"Oh, that, I dropped in by parachute at Purulia with a few AK-47s, thank u!"

2. It is basically ILLEGAL to travel on more than one passport, period, unless you have dual citizenship. I think France allows it, maybe Israel does. India and US do not.

3. Also, AFAIK, one cannot get a passport of any country unless one is a citjen of that country.

4. US taxes worldwide income regardless of where you stay, but also gives credit for taxes paid to country where you got money. I have not seen this whole deal about Tax Treaty: maybe someone could explain it to me, or where I can find out about it - the desh banks keep bothering me about it, and want a form from IRS to prove that I am taxpayer in the US despite having an address in the US!!!!!! (and that costs some $80 each year, and is guaranteed to put you on the Red List at IRS as an offshore tax dodger).

5. krishnak: When I was little, I was a Mongolian living in another country, of course everyone there referred to me as Mongolian. When I was brought back to Mongolia, everyone called me "XXXian" where XXX== country where I was living b4.

Deal with it. Enjoy it. It's nice to be special. To be called Indian, is to be called a descendant of an ancient civilization that produced Arundhati Roy, Kanu Sanyal, Madhuri Dixit, Hema Malini, Mahinder Singh Dhoni and ManMohan Singh. Can't be all bad.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 31 May 2014 07:15

UlanBatori wrote:
Does a child, of Indian nationals, born in US, has right to be Indian citizen?

Yes. Have a friend who was born in the US to Indian nationals and grew up in Chennai most of her life (her dad taught in your undergrad school, I think). At age 18, she had to opt between India citizenship or US citizenship. She went Indian, mainly because of her husband's (or husband-to-be) side of the family wishes.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 07:23

US has no problem with dual nationality.

Immigration is like abortion. Unless you are in a bind, you will not know or understand the consequences. It is better to be open and flexible about these things.

Indian immigration exit/wise used to be helpful, and certainly not hostile. Even with Indian passport I have had the all important entry stamp forgotten by a babu. If parents are stamped fine, indian dharma used to not bother over exiting childrens paperwork. Of course it may all have changed after 2013.

The problem lies with India here -- the suspicion of immigrant indians' loyalties is what resulted in pio/oci rather than dual citizenahip. India is not a country that can be "taken down", let indians grow and prosper wherever they want. that is the only solution. Otherwise its another xenophobic situation without a root cause, correct paperwork or not.

Disclaimer - not qualified to make serious comments, especially here.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 31 May 2014 07:35

Lilo wrote: What good is Massa citizenship when your kids (and their kids) are still called "Indian" by the mainstream (offcourse never to your face but always at the back of the mind - or when a bunch of "All American" families get together.)

Speak for yourself mate. I often get mistaken for some kinda Hispanic, *even when I'm standing in a group of clearly Indian people, kanchipuram sari and all*. Funniest one was at a local Venkateshwara temple, by a couple of SDREs to boot!

Frankly, people also call Bakis, Nepalis, Sri Lankans, Bangladeshis etc. as "Indian" as well, similar to generic "white guy" or "black dude", "african american" etc. tags. And you know something else..., whenever I'm with our European staff (Brits, Germans, French etc.), people refer to me as "that bloody American!"

.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 31 May 2014 07:54

Amber G. wrote:Does a child, of Indian nationals, born in US, has right to be Indian citizen?

Actually a child born to Indian national anywhere overseas, has the right to be Indian citizen. In such cases when the child is registered with nearest Indian mission, he/she is deemed an Indian citizen by birth i.e. by virtue of his/her parents being Indian nationals at the time.

Don't see why this would be an exception in US.

Of course it depends on whether the parents wish to register their child with the Indian mission and acquire Indian nationality for him/her. Not sure if it is automatic.

The problem that I see with the US law is that the parents seem to have no say in this matter- a child born to non-nationals in US is a US citizen regardless of whether the parents want it or not (If my understanding is correct).

Then again when these children move back to India, permanently (or at least till they turn 18 and may wish to go to US or elsewhere for education/job purposes), they may find themselves in unnecessary tangles, if they wish to pursue avenues in India, which are open only to Indian citizens (PMT/JEE entrance exams for instance).

I recall there was a similar case involving an applicant in Pune recently, not sure what came of it.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 May 2014 07:58

the suspicion of immigrant indians' loyalties is what resulted in pio/oci rather than dual citizenahip.

Not really. The original NDA move was to offer OCI to only citjens of 18 countries, all "advanced", where the GOI knew how to deal.
But NDA dragged their feet on actually implementing the new law, and then they were gone along with IndiaShining, and the commies came in with the UPeeYay. They didn't kill the new law, but they piled on their take, and extended the OCI to all nations except Bakistan and BD.

That was very egalitarian no doubt, but it caused severe problems to ppl in Fiji (sure), Trinidad (guessing) and several other places. In these places, the "original natives" who were in the hostile majority, were looking for any excuse to rob their Indian-origin co-citjens. The OCI "dual citjen" designation allowed them to say: "Oh, u r citjens of India, so get out and give us all your land and wealth". So these ppl begged GOI NOT to make the OCI dual citizenship, and demanded the explicit declaration that OCI was NOT citizenship.

Which is fine. I think GOI should abolish the "PIO" which is a presumption of affinity based on some DNA. They can convert PIO to OCI if needed.

The original OCI law said that those who changed to other citjenship after the OCI law was passed (2004), and applied for OCI within 6 months of getting other citjenship, were presumed NOT to have lost Indian citjenship, just changed to become "overseas citjen". I think with the Fiji protests, perhaps that part is forgotten/suppressed.

Anyway, I don't see the reasons for all the heartache here: the laws at present both US and Indian seem decent enough, if applied fairly and uniformly. For kids, India doesn't want to be bothered, but the US does create big trouble if kids are being taken OUT of the US, because of the profusion of cases where one parent is taking kids out to dodge legal judgements of custody. So they check kids' papers carefully, and want to know the circumstances carefully.

A long time back in Dera Georgia Khan, there was a case of a Pakistani man, who was in jail for years and years. It turned out that he had married a local wimmen, and had a son. His bibi's father did not approve at all, and used to try to come after him with a shotgun. The marriage did not last long, they broke up. Abdul decided to be smart: he took his son to Pakistan and left him there with his Dad, and returned.

The custody hearing judge was not amused: He shut Abdul up in jail, basically declaring that the keys were thrown away until the little boy was brought back. Abdul's dad in Pakistan felt that having the half-caucasian grandson was better than having to put up with his fool son who had gone and hitched up to just 1 kuffar wimmens and that too with no visible dowry, so Abdul was trapped in jail with no hope of getting out.

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 31 May 2014 08:00

ArmenT, they will never know the American secret handshake, either.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 08:08

Kashi wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Does a child, of Indian nationals, born in US, has right to be Indian citizen?
Actually a child born to Indian national anywhere overseas, has the right to be Indian citizen. In such cases when the child is registered with nearest Indian mission, he/she is deemed an Indian citizen by birth i.e. by virtue of his/her parents being Indian nationals at the time.

Don't see why this would be an exception in US.

Of course it depends on whether the parents wish to register their child with the Indian mission and acquire Indian nationality for him/her. Not sure if it is automatic.

The problem that I see with the US law is that the parents seem to have no say in this matter- a child born to non-nationals in US is a US citizen regardless of whether the parents want it or not (If my understanding is correct).

Then again when these children move back to India, permanently (or at least till they turn 18 and may wish to go to US or elsewhere for education/job purposes), they may find themselves in unnecessary tangles, if they wish to pursue avenues in India, which are open only to Indian citizens (PMT/JEE entrance exams for instance).

I recall there was a similar case involving an applicant in Pune recently, not sure what came of it.

It is trivial to renounce either citizenship. India forces you to make a choice when you are of age. The whole whoohaa is about what travel-document one uses until getting to 18. The child has no say in the matter.

Citizenship is passed down by parents in both countries. US, India.

The US wont take away your citizenship if you have it because you get an Indian passport. You cam get an Indian passport if parents are Indian.

But the passport is not a travel document between India and US. That is a visa.

US wont give a US citizen a visa. India wont give an Indian citizen one. If you want to not fall afoul, truly, there is only one way. Dont travel to India until you are 18. Obtaining any other travel document is a gray area.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 08:15

UlanBatori wrote:
the suspicion of immigrant indians' loyalties is what resulted in pio/oci rather than dual citizenahip.
Not really. The original NDA move was to offer OCI to only citjens of 18 countries, all "advanced", where the GOI knew how to deal.

You are acknowledging the cowardice and not much more. If Fiji determines the naturebof Indian laws then you have a huge problem. Grant rights to those who deserves them, and defend them with all that shiny hardware that is never going to be used. Fijian-Indians should have gotten the same protection italian or australian-americans get.

The cause is a lack of principle, define the identity by the constitution and dont create article 370s every which way.

rajithn · Post by **rajithn** » 31 May 2014 08:33

The verbal calisthenics that some people on this forum have indulged in, for what is essentially an illegal act, is very revealing.

If you swear allegiance to any other country, you automatically lose indian citizenship.
You are supposed to self declare this to the nearest consulate by sending them your indian passport with a reply paid envelope, within 90 days of renouncing/losing indian citizenship.

Period.

Any gymnastics that individuals have indulged in or continue to indulge in by holding on to both indian and other country passports, by providing fig leaves using a range of semantics, is illegal.

Period.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 08:52

rajithn wrote:The verbal calisthenics that some people on this forum have indulged in, for what is essentially an illegal act, is very revealing.

If you swear allegiance to any other country, you automatically lose indian citizenship.
You are supposed to self declare this to the nearest consulate by sending them your indian passport with a reply paid envelope, within 90 days of renouncing/losing indian citizenship.

Period.

Any gymnastics that individuals have indulged in or continue to indulge in by holding on to both indian and other country passports, by providing fig leaves using a range of semantics, is illegal.

Period.

You are not allowed to swear anything until you are an adult. It is not just preventing children from watching movies. You can't vote. You can't swear. You can't perform surgery. And so on. You can't do pretty much anything other than letting your parents change your diapers. Your word is pretty much all gaaagaaa goooogooo until you are 18. You can't swear. Period. (see there is another period).

Now either your prevent all Indians from going to vilayat, or they WILL reproduce abroad. And they do. And then the US (or similar country's) constitution and its enforcers will not give two hoots about your postage-paid envelops to the Indian mission. Why in the world do you (as in those asking for a 1 day old baby to make its own decision) want to be cruel to your own children is beyond me.

If you are born to Indian parents abroad, in a country that grants citizenship by birth (and not lineage), then you are born with dual citizenship. And you can't discard one until your word is accepted as an adult's informed decision. A travel document (or travel of any sort) does not change either country's constitution.

Your parents can not deprive you of a birth right. So they can send in all the letters they like, when you turn 18 you can turn right back and apply for whatever passport you like. There is no gymnastics here, its shameful populism on full display that there is NO right way to travel if you are so unfortunate and NOBODY cares to fix it.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 31 May 2014 08:53

Kashi wrote:
Amber G. wrote:Does a child, of Indian nationals, born in US, has right to be Indian citizen?
Actually a child born to Indian national anywhere overseas, has the right to be Indian citizen. In such cases when the child is registered with nearest Indian mission, he/she is deemed an Indian citizen by birth i.e. by virtue of his/her parents being Indian nationals at the time....

ArmenT and Kashi - Of course, (They have a right to be Indian citizen) Sorry.. but my question was more of rhetoric type, just to show the kind of nonsense and contradictory arguments given here.. ("well .. only if US did not "force" them to have the right" type argument here..

Perhaps one should read what I posted (see source in that post), as to what kind of documents etc are valid/legal/proper etc..

..it is clarified that there is no compelling reason to guard against a minor child having dual citizenship," says a home ministry document on 'Grant of Indian Citizenship to Minor Children under Section 4 (1) of ..

and

"It is a conscious provision of law given to a minor so that he/she can decide within six months of completing 18 years of age as to whether he/she prefers Indian citizenship.

If a person does not renounce foreign citizenship or nationality of another country within six months of attaining full age, he/she shall cease to be a citizen of India,"

UBji and others .. may be you can understand that the law differentiate between a minor and adult.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 31 May 2014 09:09

UlanBatori wrote: 2. It is basically ILLEGAL to travel on more than one passport, period, unless you have dual citizenship. I think France allows it, maybe Israel does. India and US do not.
.

As some one said

One can find all these things out in about 1 minute on Googleshwara, which is less time than is needed to type out a worthless post like this.

if you are an US citizen (it does not, in general, care if you have other citizenship, or other passports, janmpatris, horoscopes, in addition to US passport.) all US requires is, when traveling, is that when you enter/exit US, you must have US passport...

India, does not allow dual citizenship. (But as I posted earlier, a minor child, (say born in US) need not give up the other citizenship till (s)he is 18.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 May 2014 09:53

Amber G: what your family members have been able to do is factually illegal. This statement of yours is false:

Amber G. wrote:Point is NO Laws were broken.. (Yes, according to the highest authority - of Indian Consulate or People in India who were consulted, and found no issues with this - )

Laws are being broken here. Someone having two passports means a claim of two citizenships. The US may be OK with that. India is not. The additional factors here are:
* The US requires those entering - who have jus solis citizenship right - to do so with a US passport. How can they establish this ? They will look at a foreign passport and see a US birthplace and reject entry with that document, requiring you to go through secondary processing and get a US passport if you don't already have one. If you already have one, you'll be sternly reprimanded for not using it. There is no leeway for age here.
* India does NOT permit dual citizenship. Age is not the issue here. The thing is that India does not ENFORCE the requirement on minors. You are still breaking the law when you do so. You're just not being made to pay the price until the age of 18.5 . Don't confuse this with it being legal. It's not. Never has been. The moment you actually get the Indian passport, you have made the choice of citizenship on the behalf of the minor. Once you have an Indian passport (NOT OCI/PIO), you are ONLY an Indian citizen, in the eyes of the law. It's a choice on the part of the Government of India to not make an issue of it for the sake of the diaspora.

The proper thing for your family members to do would have been to get an OCI/PIO card. What they are doing is breaking the law. India just happens to have a mature and humane policy that lets them get away with it. Don't ever confuse our practicality in this matter with it being legal. It's quite possible and reasonable for GoI to turn around and clamp down - without prior notice - on anyone trying to exit with an Indian passport, asking for a US visa, and when told that they have a US passport, detain than minor and make the family go through hell for breaking the law. When that happens, a lot of people are going to dump on Indian law for being stupid or heartless, when they wouldnt dare play with US immigration law in the same manner.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 10:04

Suraj wrote:Amber G: what your family members have been able to do is factually illegal. This statement of yours is false:
Amber G. wrote:Point is NO Laws were broken.. (Yes, according to the highest authority - of Indian Consulate or People in India who were consulted, and found no issues with this - )
Laws are being broken here. Someone having two passports means a claim of two citizenships. The US may be OK with that. India is not. The additional factors here are:
* The US requires those entering - who have jus solis citizenship right - to do so with a US passport. How can they establish this ? They will look at a foreign passport and see a US birthplace and reject entry with that document, requiring you to go through secondary processing and get a US passport if you don't already have one. If you already have one, you'll be sternly reprimanded for not using it. There is no leeway for age here.
* India does NOT permit dual citizenship. Age is not the issue here. The thing is that India does not ENFORCE the requirement on minors. You are still breaking the law when you do so. You're just not being made to pay the price until the age of 18.5 . Don't confuse this with it being legal. It's not. Never has been. The moment you actually get the Indian passport, you have made the choice of citizenship on the behalf of the minor. Once you have an Indian passport (NOT OCI/PIO), you are ONLY an Indian citizen, in the eyes of the law. It's a choice on the part of the Government of India to not make an issue of it for the sake of the diaspora.

The proper thing for your family members to do would have been to get an OCI/PIO card. What they are doing is breaking the law. India just happens to have a mature and humane policy that lets them get away with it. Don't ever confuse our practicality in this matter with it being legal. It's quite possible and reasonable for GoI to turn around and clamp down - without prior notice - on anyone trying to exit with an Indian passport, asking for a US visa, and when told that they have a US passport, detain than minor and make the family go through hell for breaking the law. When that happens, a lot of people are going to dump on Indian law for being stupid or heartless, when they wouldnt dare play with US immigration law in the same manner.

Suraj,

I am not defending other posters. But if the practice is dharma - adharma then depriving a child of indian citizenship for 18 years by forcing down a PIO/OCI route can't be right? Even if they choose Indian citizenship at 18, it will not get back lost opportunities. Amber has pointed out explicitly, the law does not force you to make decision until you are of age. A child in these circumstances has dual citizenship, under current laws, like it or not. And they can have two passports if the law quoted is what it is, until they are 18 1/2. Then they have to give up the right to vote in one place.

Edit -- It appears the US formally approves of the two passport solution in these cases:

Most U.S. nationals, including dual nationals, must use a U.S. passport to enter and leave the United States. Dual nationals may also be required by the foreign country to use its passport to enter and leave that country. Use of the foreign passport does not endanger U.S. nationality.

Note that breaking a travel related law (entering on foreign travel document, if the US first gave you a visa) will not renounce your US citizenahip. You actively have to renounce it. Just like India (the within 6 months part). Of course, India will take it away if you would rather keep both.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 31 May 2014 10:17

Israel allows it for sure. Dual citizenship is symmetric. US doesn't allow it for countries which do not allow dual citizenship with US.

Above is to be surrounded by "I think". Ianal.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 10:25

matrimc wrote:Israel allows it for sure. Dual citizenship is symmetric. US doesn't allow it for countries which do not allow dual citizenship with US.

Above is to be surrounded by "I think". Ianal.

The language above comes from the US State Department. Dual citizenship means you are obligated to both sets of laws and owe allegiance to both. Despite the contradictions. I am not sure what symmetry means in this context. The US grants citizenship to immigrants (naturalization), but for children born in the US it is a birth right, enshrined in the constitution. There is nothing to allow or disallow. Until 1998 Mexico was like India. This is not a path rarely traveled. This is the "anchor baby" debate.

Vayutuvan · Post by **Vayutuvan** » 31 May 2014 10:34

Ianal. Also no idea what "anchor baby" debate is.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 10:39

matrimc wrote:Ianal. Also no idea what "anchor baby" debate is.

"Whether mexicans came over the border illegally to have american children, thereby getting permission to stay when no visa would have allowed otherwise"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anchor_baby

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 May 2014 11:00

Shreeman, why is it not right ? You cannot have your cake and eat it too. India already - based on anecdote - lets people get away with the use of an Indian passport while holding a valid passport of another country, as long as you are a minor. That's enough dharma. When you're skirting the law, you're not in a position to ask for more. Just be thankful that GoI is merciful when GotUS isn't. Being greedy is not dharmic either.

Specifically, the problem is due to the US, not India here. The US requires the recognition of jus solis citizenship until the person is sufficiently of age to renounce US citizenship. Unless you renounce US citizenship after 18, the law requires you to enter the US on a US passport only. US jus solis law (which is at odds with most of the ROWs jus sanguinis law) ensures that a person cannot avail the benefit of citizenship in another country unless that country permits dual citizenship. Most of the world does not recognize jus soli; that is a new world artifact borne out of the historical need to populate the land. Dual citizenship is an artifact borne of old world to new world migration in the west.

India on the other hand, does not legally recognize the acquisition of an Indian passport, when you already have another passport. It does not matter what age you are. That people have been able to do so is a grey area that GoI is willing to overlook for the sake of not raising a big stink. Once you are 18, they will crackdown at emigration check. At that age, you have to decide which country you want to be a citizen of; either renounce US citizenship and stick to Indian passport, or renounce Indian citizenship and get an OCI/PIO card.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 11:07

Suraj wrote:Shreeman, why is it not right ? You cannot have your cake and eat it too. India already - based on anecdote - lets people get away with the use of an Indian passport while holding a valid passport of another country, as long as you are a minor. That's enough dharma. When you're skirting the law, you're not in a position to ask for more. Just be thankful that GoI is merciful when GotUS isn't. Being greedy is not dharmic either.

Specifically, the problem is due to the US, not India here. The US requires the recognition of jus solis citizenship until the person is sufficiently of age to renounce US citizenship. Unless you renounce US citizenship after 18, the law requires you to enter the US on a US passport only. US jus solis law (which is at odds with most of the ROWs jus sanguinis law) ensures that a person cannot avail the benefit of citizenship in another country unless that country permits dual citizenship. Most of the world does not recognize jus soli; that is a new world artifact borne out of the historical need to populate the land.

India on the other hand, does not legally recognize the acquisition of an Indian passport, when you already have another passport. It does not matter what age you are. That people have been able to do so is a grey area that GoI is willing to overlook for the sake of not raising a big stink. Once you are 18, they will crackdown at emigration check. At that age, you have to decide which country you want to be a citizen of; either renounce US citizenship and stick to Indian passport, or renounce Indian citizenship and get an OCI/PIO card.

Everyone agrees on what should happen at 18. There is no debate there.

The US doesnt care what other documents you hold. But India does, and at 18 you have a voice. To me above has been entirely about clarifying the rules for minors.

The law says a decision is delayed until 18, but clearly its not well understood. A mere clarification to immigration authorities at ports of entry is all that is needed -- minors can have dual citizenship by law. stamp both passports on entry/exit. that is all.

If I read right, this is what you are proposing. But the current implementation is spotty or we would not have this debate.

Over 18, make a choice. Under 18, listen to your elders.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 31 May 2014 11:15

Or take the US/Chinese approach. Refuse to recognize the foreign passport and stamp a separate piece of paper on entry to/exit from India.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 May 2014 11:17

What is there to clarify ? Jus sanguinis means you have the right to choose citizenship on the basis of blood. That is it. Your blood doesn't change before or after 18. Jus solis means you are born of the land. You cannot change that; you can wait until you are old enough to decide otherwise and renounce it.

Until you are 18, you are NOT Indian, if you were born in a jus soli state. You can be Indian if you were born in a jus sanguinis state. Until 18, US born ethnic Indians must hold only a US passport, according to the letter of Indian law. Post 18, they may invoke their right to Indian citizenship by blood, by also renouncing US citizenship.

Therefore, any parent who gets a US-born Indian minor an Indian passport is breaking the law. That's because the US does not consider the minor competent enough to renounce US citizenship until 18, and therefore they cannot simultaneously be Indian citizens. It is that simple. All that's happening is that India is choosing not to prosecute parents who obtain Indian passports for such minors. The Indian consulate site is very clear - you cannot hold an Indian passport and another passport, not matter how old you are. You are - by law - required to obtain OCI/PIO, if you are a minor in this situation.

The lack of flexibility here is not on India's part. It is on the US part. They should make jus soli a choice, and not a requirement. In other words, if a US born minor holds another passport, the US allows deferral of choice until the child is of age. Whichever passport the parent first acquires becomes the minor's citizenship until 18. But no, the US does not permit that deferral. India does permit that. That is the cause of the whole issue.

Kashi · Post by **Kashi** » 31 May 2014 11:18

Shreeman wrote:Over 18, make a choice. Under 18, listen to your elders.

But what if elders (meaning parents) do not wish for their child to have US citizenship and have him/her registered as an Indian national?

It appears that US law does not allow this right/privilege.

One option could be to let the parents to decide for the child till majorhood and then permit US-born overseas citizens to choose (within reasonable timeframe such as 6-12 months) if they wish to acquire US citizenship or not.

Suraj wrote:Therefore, any parent who gets a US-born Indian minor an Indian passport is breaking the law. That's because the US does not consider the minor competent enough to renounce US citizenship until 18, and therefore they cannot simultaneously be Indian citizens. It is that simple. All that's happening is that India is choosing not to prosecute parents who obtain Indian passports for such minors. The Indian consulate site is very clear - you cannot hold an Indian passport and another passport, not matter how old you are. You are - by law - required to obtain OCI/PIO, if you are a minor in this situation.

In that case the consulates and the Indian embassy may as well ask the parents to file an undertaking that the child has not acquired or applied for another nationality and refuse to grant a passport in absence of one. I suspect this will mostly lead to children born in US to Indian parents, to opt for US passport at least for the initial departure from the US (and possibly an OCI card), if they intend to move to India (or elsewhere) permanently.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 May 2014 11:26

Everyone who gets their US born ethnic Indian kid an Indian passport is breaking the oath requiring them to confirm that they don't hold citizenship of another country. I support GoI cracking down on this and requiring such parents to get only an OCI/PIO until the kid is 18.

One may ask 'why doesn't the Indian consulate reject passport applications for US born minors ?' They should. They aren't doing so yet. Consider it a blessing instead of assuming it is in any way an entitlement.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 11:29

Kashi wrote:
Shreeman wrote:Over 18, make a choice. Under 18, listen to your elders.
But what if elders (meaning parents) do not wish for their child to have US citizenship and have him/her registered as an Indian national?

It appears that US law does not allow this right/privilege.

One option could be to let the parents to decide for the child till majorhood and then permit US-born overseas citizens to choose (within reasonable timeframe such as 6-12 months) if they wish to acquire US citizenship or not.

Suraj wrote:Therefore, any parent who gets a US-born Indian minor an Indian passport is breaking the law. That's because the US does not consider the minor competent enough to renounce US citizenship until 18, and therefore they cannot simultaneously be Indian citizens. It is that simple. All that's happening is that India is choosing not to prosecute parents who obtain Indian passports for such minors. The Indian consulate site is very clear - you cannot hold an Indian passport and another passport, not matter how old you are. You are - by law - required to obtain OCI/PIO, if you are a minor in this situation.
In that case the consulates and the Indian embassy may as well ask the parents to file an undertaking that the child has not acquired or applied for another nationality and refuse to grant a passport in absence of one. I suspect this will mostly lead to children born in US to Indian parents, to opt for US passport at least for the initial departure from the US (and possibly an OCI card), if they intend to move to India (or elsewhere) permanently.

This is no different than choice of a profession or bride/groom. Those are social issues. The parents may also influence your voting choices. In the end, this is an individual decision both by Indian and US law.

This is a matter of travel documents, if India permitted dual citizenship it only has something to gain (increased interest in indian affairs by second and third generation indians) and nothing to lose. Indian emigrants are not sufficiently large numbers to influence any politics anywhere (except perhaps fiji).

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 May 2014 11:31

It's fine to debate why India should or should not have dual citizenship. That's a perfectly valid question to discuss. It's not fine to get a US born minor an Indian passport and then ask 'why not ?' That is not a matter to be debated.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 31 May 2014 11:35

Suraj wrote:Everyone who gets their US born ethnic Indian kid an Indian passport is breaking the oath requiring them to confirm that they don't hold citizenship of another country. I support GoI cracking down on this and requiring such parents to get only an OCI/PIO until the kid is 18.

One may ask 'why doesn't the Indian consulate reject passport applications for US born minors ?' They should. They aren't doing so yet. Consider it a blessing instead of assuming it is in any way an entitlement.

Suraj,

A birth right is as close to an entitlement as it gets. Current legal language sets the consulate procedures. They do not operate in a vacuum. If one does not obtain a US passport for a child, registers the birth then obtains Indian passport, what is wrong? But such a minor would be separated from their parents due to lack of a US entry document. "Holding" does not apply to US citizenship for these minors. Discrimination is bad regardless of circumstances, if someone is blessed with dual citizenship for 18 years there is no reason to hold that against them either.

ps -- no kids, nor prospect, no goat in this race other than fairness and principle.
pps -- vashudhaiv kutumbkam. my vote is for giving rights and empowering the individual, not taking away or restricting. i am also a nobody.
ppps -- this is the indian anchor baby debate. india could, by your arguments send out indians on diplomatic, government, or industrial assignments, then deny citizenship to their children. pio/oci is the same as passport under 18. no vote either way. what is the justification of this discrimination. US does way too many terrible things, India shouldnt follow.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 May 2014 19:15

India just happens to have a mature and humane policy that lets them get away with it. Don't ever confuse our practicality in this matter with it being legal. It's quite possible and reasonable for GoI to turn around and clamp down - without prior notice - on anyone trying to exit with an Indian passport, asking for a US visa, and when told that they have a US passport, detain than minor and make the family go through hell for breaking the law. When that happens, a lot of people are going to dump on Indian law for being stupid or heartless, when they wouldnt dare play with US immigration law in the same manner.

As I understand (peripheral interest, mainly), AFTER the OCI was established, GOI did start tightening the procedures. Otherwise the "PIO" basically said, get a card that says that some ancestor had desi khoon and you can come and go as u please and stay for 6 months. This was way too loose.

So they started asking immigration authorities to enforce the requirement that you must have got your Indian passport cancelled when you got other citjenship - or else there are too many loose passports out there waiting for Dawood Gilani types to use.

For new OCI requests, they asked for proof of cancelled Indian passport. This is when the poo hit the turbines: Far too many desis had coolly ignored the LEGAL REQUIREMENT that you had to return your passport to be cancelled when you got some other citjenship. (Like the requirement that IRS has always had, that u have to report worldwide income if you are a US resident). The fraud (and there is no other term for it) was 100% on the part of those who had not got their Indian passports cancelled. They basically stuck their middle fingers up at their Matrbhoomi when they got some other citjenship. Rude, lazy and dishonest.

Suddenly, there was a flood of these, with several ppl

that they no longer had the cancelled Indian passports. IOW, they (claim to have) simply thrown away the passport when they got the new citjenship. That was tough: they had no way of proving that they once held Indian citjenship, so how were they applying for an OCI? IMO GOI should have flat rejected OCI applications of such people, but GOI was very kind. Probably made them produce Or-e-jinnal Birth Certificates etc, I don't know (many had no way of proving that they were born, either..

)

Instead this flood created a huge backlog at Consulates, leading to massive protests and screaming at Indian Embassy and Consulates. Much of this popularity was well-deserved because the Babus do not observe their own procedures laid out on their websites: not the time for processing, not the process for enquiry, not answering phones intelligently, and certainly not responding to customers. They only moved their behinds and showed some life when they were cavity-searched, or their privilege of having ayahs etc was challenged.

Of course this has always been the case. Even when my Evil 6th Coujin (E6C) applied for a vija, because OCI was delayed several months beyond the stated processing time, the vija application also dragged on for months, until departure date started looking. After exhausting other means, E6C sent a gentle enquiry to a local neta who was on phone/first-naam basis with Conjul-Jarnail in Houstonabad.

Whammo! Vija appeared FedEX next morning. I sent a thank-u note to the Babu, also ignored. They REALLY try to be loved by the Peasantry, don't they? Anyway, now the backlog seems to be cleared (I hope) until the next panic.

As far as the children thing is concerned, I don't see what the PITA is all about: GOI policy seems sane and minimizes bureaucracy. As I pointed out in my first response on seeing AmberG's post of the GOI language, I was amazed (very positively) that a government would say things like "since there is no point in harassing children" to decide on an otherwise messy issue.

Thanks to all, I have now learned a new Latin name, courtesy of Suraj:

Sus DNAnus Pakus (SDP)

This is the defining feature of a paki. My yuwar goat droppings be perfectly spherical, as the full Moon above Karachi.

Desis OTOH appear to have a defining characteristic:

Chalta Hai as long as one's own immediate interest is not bothered.

This is at once a tremendous asset and a really irritating liability if one has to get someone's attention.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 31 May 2014 20:24

Shreeman, if you (not you specifically, but an ethnic Indian minor) are US born and the parent never gets you a US passport but instead gets an Indian passport, then you indeed can argue that you are Indian. That is because the US cannot enforce its citizenship requirement at point of entry. This means you are US born and stay in US or leave it until 18. In such a case you never need an Indian passport, so no problem onlee.

Getting an Indian passport for such kids for travel means by corollary that you also got a US passport, because you need that for them to reenter US. If you did, you broke Indian law. If you got only Indian passport for travel, you broke both US and Indian law. If you got only US passport (plus OCI/PIO), both countries are fine. In every permutation it is the acquisition of an Indian passport for a US born minor that causes you to break either Indian or both Indian and US law.

The topic of debate is the legality of a US born minor acquiring a US passport AND an Indian passport. No matter how one cuts that, it is illegal. Either:
* Never get a US passport and never reenter US.
* Get a US passport and hold only PIO/OCI until 18 when the kid is old enough to choose Indian or US.

UB bin Mongolistani: Consular process and timeline issues are divorced from the general question of whether you can hold Indian+another passport. Yes, the consular processes need significant improvement, but anyone with any sense should know that holding two passports is a claim of two citizenships, which is ilegal. No amount of 'not clearly explained onlee! babooz fault onlee!' works here. The concept of OCI/PIO is well understood, even if the distinction between them may be confusing. They provide limited citizenship rights to ethnic Indians who have another passport. That's the only option for those minors who have jus soli US citizenship.

For those born elsewhere in the old world outside India, you can have Indian citizenship from birth. This is very specific to US/Canada and other new world jus soli law countries that make it a requirement for those born on their territory to acquire citizenship via a passport when they enter that country. Having to acquire that passport makes their jus sanguinis right to Indian citizenship secondary until they turn 18 and can choose one.

Karan Dixit · Post by **Karan Dixit** » 31 May 2014 20:24

UlanBatori wrote:This thread now reads like a transcript of a Lok Sabha proceeding, with chairs flying and all.
Several items of confusion:
1.
India has what they call exit migration check. When your nephews and nieces are leaving India, they will be asked, "Where is your visa to enter the US?"
Your nephews and nieces will reply, "I do not need visa. I have US passport to enter the US."
Immigration officer will say ... you know what he will say. You catch the drift.
Er... that is not the question they will ask, since the Exiter is not showing his/her Indian passport.
The proper question is: "When did u enter India and y is it not appearing on yuwar US bassport onlee?" at which point the fat is in the fire.
"Oh, that, I dropped in by parachute at Purulia with a few AK-47s, thank u!"

2. It is basically ILLEGAL to travel on more than one passport, period, unless you have dual citizenship. I think France allows it, maybe Israel does. India and US do not.

3. Also, AFAIK, one cannot get a passport of any country unless one is a citjen of that country.

4. US taxes worldwide income regardless of where you stay, but also gives credit for taxes paid to country where you got money. I have not seen this whole deal about Tax Treaty: maybe someone could explain it to me, or where I can find out about it - the desh banks keep bothering me about it, and want a form from IRS to prove that I am taxpayer in the US despite having an address in the US!!!!!! (and that costs some $80 each year, and is guaranteed to put you on the Red List at IRS as an offshore tax dodger).

5. krishnak: When I was little, I was a Mongolian living in another country, of course everyone there referred to me as Mongolian. When I was brought back to Mongolia, everyone called me "XXXian" where XXX== country where I was living b4.

Deal with it. Enjoy it. It's nice to be special. To be called Indian, is to be called a descendant of an ancient civilization that produced Arundhati Roy, Kanu Sanyal, Madhuri Dixit, Hema Malini, Mahinder Singh Dhoni and ManMohan Singh. Can't be all bad.

I did not have a scientific calculator to calculate all the possible combinations of scenario that immigration check (entry/exit) could create. The point I was trying to make was that it does not matter whether you use US passport or Indian passport, you will get caught if the officer is doing his job. If you show US passport, you will be asked to show Indian visa. If you show Indian passport, you will be asked to show US visa. I personally do not think there is anyway to get around this.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 31 May 2014 20:48

CNN-IBN News ‏@ibnlive 24m

Pentagon official to lead defence trade dialogue with India http://ibnlive.in.com/news/pentagon-off ... 782-2.html …

"To further strengthen US-India defence ties, I am directing the Pentagon's Undersecretary for Acquisition, Technology, and Logistics (Frank Kendall) to lead the US-India Defence Trade and Technology Initiative with India's new government," he said at the Shangri-La Dialogue in Singapore.

Started during the previous UPA regime, Defence Trade and Technology Initiative is aimed at removing bureaucratic bottlenecks in defence trade between India and the US.

...
Hagel said he plans to play an active and very personal role in expanding this initiative because it is a centrepiece of America's defence cooperation with India and it should reflect the trust and confidence President Obama and I have in our nation's relationship with India.

"To reinforce this effort and to drive even more transformational cooperation I hope to visit India later this year," he said.

America's global partnerships, he said, reach across the Asian continent and extend to India, one of the US' most important, democratic partners and a country with historic influence across Asia.

"The United States looks forward to working with India's new government led by Prime Minister (Narendra) Modi. We welcome India's increasingly active role in Asia's regional institutions, which strengthens regional order.

"We also welcome India's growing defence capabilities and its commitment to freedom of navigation in the Indian Ocean," Hagel said.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 31 May 2014 21:08

Surajji (Forum Moderator)–

I see that you have not made any comment on uncivil post made by Mr. Gus (“screw you and them”) yet are piling on by accusing me and my family member of breaking the law.

Suraj wrote:Amber G: what your family members have been able to do is factually illegal. This statement of yours is false:

You may have right to your opinion, but the above statement is offensive. Considering that you know close to zero(you obviously were not there) about events happened about 40 years ago, and obviously have even less understanding about the law, your judgment and slander is nothing short of disgraceful. I suggest you edit it -- if you don’t want to embarrass yourself further,

Stating the obvious -- these, law abiding people did what seem to be recommended to them by the consulate, and no one in GOI or US said that there is anything remotely wrong, it is beyond pale for you to continue the way you are continuing. . Similarly in DK’s case ((where the children have US passports) It is shameful to continue crying “fraud” (or illegal this or that) when GOI sees no wrongdoing. (Please do read what has been posted here or any reliable source). Period.

Forgive me if I am not going to comment further on your other points, except to note a small point –when you again embarrass yourself by giving me advice

The proper thing for your family members to do would have been to get an OCI/PIO card. What they are doing is breaking the law.

Dear Suraji – There was no OCI/PIO card in 1960’s or 1970’s.. /sheesh/
(besides, some have chose not to be OCI but an Indian nationals as they have full right to be)

(And repeating ad-absurdum "breaking the law" only shows your ignorance of the law (in my opinion, of course) - it is also slander which decent people do not throw on others lightly.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 31 May 2014 22:04

Hagel Offers Litany of US actions on Asian Re-balance after skepticism

To be perfectly honest US's Asian re-balance is smoke and mirrors to appear to be with the Asian kittens(formerly tiger cubs) while PRC changes and transforms.Meanwhile they assure PRC that the kittens don't transform into something more challenging to PRC.
And laugh all the way to the bank.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 31 May 2014 22:11

Interesting dynamics.

US trade rep is DEFENSE acquisitions guy, rather than Commerce Dept. Means SD is being shuttled aside to get things moving. Big Military-Industrial Complex showing its opinion of SD and Commerce gang.

This is interesting because the USUAL process for any exports is like:
1. Defense contractor company develops a system which India needs/wants
2. Defense contractor company conducts negotiations in competition with Oiropean, Roossian, French, Israeli, Australian, Somalian vendors.
3. Finally wins competition, US system picked.
4. Defense contractor company applies to SD for ITAR clearance,
5. Defense contractor company applies to Commerce Dept for clearance on other lists.
.....

6. Long delay...

7. Contract eventually goes to Swedish company who hires Italian arms trader to channel part of the payment through... (never mind).

8. Defense contractor company lays off 1000 workers.
***************************************************

Now it is more like Pakistani system. Direct Jarnail-to-Jarnail.

Note that elsewhere, US DoD has got hold of practically all US space launch bijnej requiring heavy lift/ manned flights as NASA becomes more and more ridiculous.

What next? Agriculture comes under DoD? Healthcare comes under DoD? Education already works best under DoD. Wasn't Georgia Washington a general? Seems like US is returning to basics.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 May 2014 22:49

Kashi wrote:One option could be to let the parents to decide for the child till majorhood and then permit US-born overseas citizens to choose (within reasonable timeframe such as 6-12 months) if they wish to acquire US citizenship or not.

saar, the issue is not what happens after 18 years. situation is better and clearer then. it is upto that point, where there is no choice in this matter and becomes a hassle, if you want your US born kid to be Indian citizen and travel back and forth.

When I r2i'd, I had to live in India with my kid who was a foreign citizen. It is just absurd that I have to wait for 18 years to make her an Indian citizen.

Even if I did the illegal/grey area thing of getting an Indian ppt for her whilst in India, I would still be in trouble when I traveled again to US with family because US would insist on her having a US ppt until she renounces this after 18 years.

This is not an issue for people WANTING to have their kids as US citizens. matter of fact, that would be a blessing for them. many people fly into the US to have a baby for this specific purpose.

I DON'T.

Apparently this is such an hard thing to comprehend for some here.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 May 2014 23:05

saip wrote:The problem is that Indian babus go to sleep and then wake up one day and come up with idiotic rules. Take for example when they realized that people were using their Indian passports to enter India after acquiring US passport they come up with "Renunciation of Citizenship" thing but provided no forms or fee structure with the result each of the Consulates came up with their own forms and fees. When I wanted to apply for OCI card I calculated that I needed to pay almost $2000 in SFO but only around $120 if I applied in NY. Then after lot of protests and lobbying they reduced the fee to $20!. Even now I do not think they have standardized the forms. Why cant the Indian Embassy prescribed the forms to all the consulates? I know under the Indian Citizenship Act you lose Indian citizenship act if you acquire citizenship of another country and I think the Indian Passport has some condition that you have to return the passport in such cases.

everybody knows the issues with our govt in how it makes confusing regulations and language and enforcement etc.

but what about our own people who ALWAYS try to get around indian laws if they can get away with it (wheel out all excuses such as , what's the big deal, everybody is doing it,they are not catching anyways, i asked some authority and they said it is fine, it is the dharmic thing, blah blah blah...) and then turn around with "the law is the law" for massa laws no matter how insensible or harsh it is...and worse get all holier than thou about this.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 May 2014 23:11

Lilo wrote:^
Gus saar please to self censor the references unfitting for a family forum.

all my years in brf - close to 10 i think, i have never gotten personal and try sarcasm/humor or just put the person on ignore list and take a break and stop visiting the thread etc to cool down.

this one is particularly annoying, because we had a spat on this many months ago, and then this person comes back with the same silly arguments. and the overall theme of "US says, US tells, US VISA IS AWESOME and why are you not happy with it and don't want it, BUT US SAYS, BUT US LAWS, BUT US, US, US, US"

i will let it stay and if mods censure me, so be it. i did mean what i said.

saip · Post by **saip** » 31 May 2014 23:11

Another thing is even if the children are born in India and move to US with their parents and the both the parents become US citizens, then the children too become US citizens if they are minor. To avoid this my sister waited till her daughters came of age before she became a US citizen.

When I r2i'd, I had to live in India with my kid who was a foreign citizen. It is just absurd that I have to wait for 18 years to make her an Indian citizen.

It is no more absurd than US forcing citizenship on everyone that is born in the USA. You want to deprive you child of US citizenship without knowing how she feels once she comes of age.

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 31 May 2014 23:19

saip wrote:Another thing is even if the children are born in India and move to US with their parents and the both the parents become US citizens, then the children too become US citizens if they are minor. To avoid this my sister waited till her daughters came of age before she became a US citizen.

that is a conscious choice on the parents part - to become a citizen. i don't see an issue there.

It is no more absurd than US forcing citizenship on everyone that is born in the USA. You want to deprive you child of US citizenship without knowing how she feels once she come of age.

again with the "US citizenship is awesome, why would you not want it when it is given to you" thing.

what exactly is being "deprived" here about a minor kid being a US citizen or not. everything is the same in everyday living. if after 18 years, she wants to become US citizen of her own choice as adult, let her get a visa or whatever and pursue this awesome citizenship.