J & K news and discussion

[SSridhar]

...But more practically, was it possible for a new nation state, with no experience in conducting "warfare", to have mobilised such a large airlift operation within 24-48 hours?

somnath, unlike Pakistani armed forces at that time, the IA and the RIAF had very experienced middle-level and senior-level Indian officers who had extensive experience in WWII. If you go through the details of the Defence Committee meeting on Oct. 26, even after the Instrument of Accession was signed, the Defence Chiefs who were British, objected to the airlift saying it was risky. But, they were over-ruled and India had no other option anyway. It was therefore very much within Indian capabilities to have airlifted the forces on Oct 26th & 27. FM Manekshaw has categorically stated that as soon as the Defence Committee meeting was over on Oct 26, he started organizing the airlift by 12 noon that very same day. It was the Sikh regiment that was sent with Col. Ranjit Rai.

In fact, this controversy of Indian troops having been sent even before accession is triggered by what an Indian General, Gen. Sen, said of having seen Patiala Forces in Srinagar upon his arrival on Oct. 27. Naturally, Pakistanis picked up on this to claim that India had sent in forces earlier. Apparently, when the Maharajah of Patiala came to J&K as a State guest in early 1947, Hari Singh had sought his help in sending a contingent to provide him security on account of deteriorating law and order situation and that request had been conceded to by Patiala. Hence the Patiala Forces at Srinagar. Besides, in October 1947, Patiala Forces had not been absorbed into IA.

[somnath]

^^^ not just Gen LP Sen, also by the "man" himslef, VP Menon. His account of "signing" on the dates (was it 25th, 26th, 27th or actually a little later?) leaves quite a bit to the imgination

I cursorily glanced through Gen Sen's book on the Kashmir ops once (Slender thread or some title like that) - to my eternal regret didnt pick it up! I missed his mention of the presence of Patiala forces, but dont think the Pakistanis base their "legal" arguments on Gen Sen at all..Whatever I have read of the Paki analysis, they seem to refer a lot to VP Menon's account, besides the usual balderdash on "prmised plebiscite" etc..

about the airlift itself, while presence of experienced RIAF officers were a help, commandeering a civilian fleet isnt all that easy. (Unrelated, but we saw the confusion during 26/11 to get an aircraft for the NSG)..And by some accounts we used a vast majority of the aircraft fleet available in the country - to pull it off would have required a great deal of prior plannign and "pre work", no?

[vera_k]

the story of how the decision to send troops goes a bit like this..In a cabinet meeting to discuss the issue, Nehru talked Russia, China, UN, international relations and earth universe and everything else when the Sardar lost his temper and said "Jawaharlal, do you want Kashmir or not?" Nehru replied, startled, "of course I do". Patel turned to the senior Army officer in the meeting and told him "you have your orders now". (I think this is from Patrick French's Liberty or Death, but I may be wrong)..

This conflicts with Syed Mir Qasim's accounts of the events that took place. According to him, Sheikh Abdullah was in Delhi in an ante-room when this Cabinet meeting took place and it was his endorsement that tipped the balance.

Sheikh Abdullah reached New Delhi to find the Congress leaders already seized of this issue. The Cabinet meeting was on and Pandit Jawaharlal was insisting that the Government could not send its forces to Kashmir at the request of the Maharaja although he wanted to accede to India. Unless this accession was endorsed by the people of Kashmir, said Mr. Nehru, the Indian forces would not go there.

Sheikh Abdullah, who was listening to this debate from an ante-room, at once scribbled a note for Mr. Nehru requesting him to send the army to save Kashmir from the invaders. Panditji read out the note to his cabinet colleagues and announced that Sheikh Abdullah, the sole voice of Jammu and Kashmir, was here with his working committee's authorisation to declare accession of Kashmir to India. And that was that.

[RayC]

[I believe that the airlift happened only after Oct 26 when the Instrument had been signed by Hari Singh and accepted by Mountbatten and discussed in the Defence Committee meeting that morning. The three defence chiefs and the Joint Chief were all British at that time and it would have been difficult to keep the wraps on such a sensitive thing had it been otherwise. From my reading of what happened, two events delayed the capture of Srinagar by the Pakistanis. One was the well known rape, loot and pillage of Baramulla which kept most of the tribal lashkars occupied for three days and the other less well known was the brave efforts of a small contingent of J&K State Forces led by Brig. Rajinder Singh who delayed the raiders by two days at Uri (incidentally, the first Maha Vir Chakra was awarded posthumously to him).

Technically yes...But more practically, was it possible for a new nation state, with no experience in conducting "warfare", to have mobilised such a large airlift operation within 24-48 hours?

On 21 Oct 1947, the Pakistanis entered Jammu and Kashmir.

On 27 Oct 1947, the first troops landed in Sirnagar.

That makes it 6 days.

The Indian Army had no experience in conducting warfare? WW II was adequate a training ground, both as COs, officers and staff officers. There can be no better training than participating in the real McCoy!

Here is an excerpt on Gen Thimmayya and that should indicate the capability of Indian officers. Likewise, there was Lt Gen (then Brigadier) Lionel Protip Sen, who was also a DSO for contribution in battle.

For a short while the battalion was under the command of the 3rd Command Brigade, with Brigadier C R Hardy at the helm, who during the height of a battle presented a trophy to the 8/19th Hyderabads. It was a green beret - the command's head dress - with a little typed message on a card, "We cannot buy anything here but we would like you to accept this as a token of our great admiration for the bravery and achievement of your battalion." He was also promoted to the rank of Brigadier in the field! For his outstanding service in battle, he was awarded the much coveted Distinguished Service Order (D.S.O) and also a Mention-in-Dispatches.

Airlift is a Staff Officer's workload and there were no dearth of officers trained in airlifts.

In those days, comandeering civilian assets was easy since it was just after WWII and requisitioning civilian assets in WWII was always being done and so it was not quite unnatural an event!

26/11 airlift is a different kettle of fish. Compare the prestige and clout of the IA then and compare it now!

In those days, over the counter purchases were paid by cheque and today even if you give valid currency, it is checked to see it is a forged note! Times have changed. There is a credibility deficit that has gripped all sectors of the country!

[RayC]

If India want's to keep kashmir, it will have to follow an active policy of settling people in the vally, so that the vally starts to reflcet the ethnic mix of the country. Either do that or give up kashmir, no matter how hard rest of India wishes, the truth will not change. What is so wrong with presuing an active settlement policy in kashmir? After all, Kashmir is a part of India, and every Indian should have a right to settle there.

Why does Xinjaing come to mind?

I feel that with economic progress and making it cheap and easy for Kashmiris to come into hinterland India including giving them education facilities in India, the mindset will change.

It is time we should not look at Kashmiris and those of the NE as exotic fish in an acquarium!

Unlike the Han Chinese who wanted to change the demography and hence have come to grief in Xinjaing, we should allow all the maintain their identity, but give facilities for them to operate in hinterland in India and savour teh progress and way of life. This will go a long way to change the mindset that prevails with some in Kashmir.

The IA Op Sadbhavana programme of bringing school boys and girls is already making an impact.

It is just like Indians going to the US and then becoming greatest votaries of the 'bounties' of the US etc, so much so, that quite a few non foreign land visiting Indians have acquired the US accent (well, they think they have) as also using US spellings and words like 'anyways'!

[negi]

It is just like Indians going to the US and then becoming greatest votaries of the 'bounties' of the US etc, so much so, that quite a few non foreign land visiting Indians have acquired the US accent (well, they think they have) as also using US spellings and words like 'anyways'!

Nice

[somnath]

On 21 Oct 1947, the Pakistanis entered Jammu and Kashmir.

On 27 Oct 1947, the first troops landed in Sirnagar.
That makes it 6 days.

The Indian Army had no experience in conducting warfare? WW II was adequate a training ground, both as COs, officers and staff officers. There can be no better training than participating in the real McCoy!

The key dates are the following:

Signing of the Instrument of accession: 26th Oct
Airlift of troops into Kashmir: 27th Oct

And the first date (26th) is the source of a lot of (historical) intrigue, not least because of VP Menon's accounts!

Question is whether we really planned for the operation after the signing of the agreement or well before it? By derivation, it would seem the latter..Seems unlikely that an airlift was planned and executed in 24 hour timeframe after the signing of the agreement, howsoever more "prestige" the IA commanded then comapred to now! It would have been in the works for many days and weeks to have been "turned on" so swiftly.

Net net, it was an operation well conceived and executed, with Chanakyan foresight, and the world pretty much agrees! We can dump the legalities to the historian (and useless entities like the UN) and concentrate on real power politics!

[RayC]

On 21 Oct 1947, the Pakistanis entered Jammu and Kashmir.

On 27 Oct 1947, the first troops landed in Sirnagar.
That makes it 6 days.

The Indian Army had no experience in conducting warfare? WW II was adequate a training ground, both as COs, officers and staff officers. There can be no better training than participating in the real McCoy!

The key dates are the following:

Signing of the Instrument of accession: 26th Oct
Airlift of troops into Kashmir: 27th Oct

And the first date (26th) is the source of a lot of (historical) intrigue, not least because of VP Menon's accounts!

Question is whether we really planned for the operation after the signing of the agreement or well before it? By derivation, it would seem the latter..Seems unlikely that an airlift was planned and executed in 24 hour timeframe after the signing of the agreement, howsoever more "prestige" the IA commanded then comapred to now! It would have been in the works for many days and weeks to have been "turned on" so swiftly.

Net net, it was an operation well conceived and executed, with Chanakyan foresight, and the world pretty much agrees! We can dump the legalities to the historian (and useless entities like the UN) and concentrate on real power politics!

True with your key dates.

Am I to understand that unless there is a war or a crisis, there is no contingeny planning done?

Net net, you must learn how an Army functions.

World agrees?

I wonder if that pacifist who thought himself greater than India could be blessed with Chanakiyan wisdom. If he were, then 1962 would not have happened.

They way we are going now, we are rolling back to those days!

Let me assure you that an airlift is feasible in 12 hours or even less if you wish, Provided there is the will!

An airlift is not an expedition to the Moon!

[alexis]

I actually never thought of the logistics of the airlift and more i think about it, more inclined i am to agree with Somnath. The plan was in place; the execution was done when we got what we wanted - the signing of the Instrument of Accession. I think it was a brilliant move but what was wrong was the fact that we went to UN instead of retaking POK. If we had done that, there would not have been any problems now. But what could be one of the reasons for not retaking POK may be that Indian leaders didnt want to risk a wider war at that stage.

[RayC]

Airlift or getting into 3 tons with all personnel, equipment and ammuniton is the same thing!

It takes time, but it is nothing usual for an unit. Like I marvel at how the Budget is planned, having no clue how it is done, but for those who work it out, it is a 'bayen hath ke kam'.


It might be mind boggling to those who are not aware, but it is part of life for those who have to execute it. There are enough of example of airlifts organised in wars.

If one want to give a sinister twist, who can stop them?

I for one, am a pragmatist. I would not believe a pacifist like Nehru would have imperialistic ideas. In fact, he was such a pacifist, that India came to grief!

An aircraft is merely a vehicle and a vehicle that has a weight limit. Just like a 3 ton has. You can't load a 3 ton with 100 men and a Dakota too had its capacity limitation. Calcuate it and all is well. This is called 'Staff Check' in the IA.

[SSridhar]

^^^ not just Gen LP Sen, also by the "man" himslef, VP Menon. His account of "signing" on the dates (was it 25th, 26th, 27th or actually a little later?) leaves quite a bit to the imgination

somnath, I really don't know what you are trying to prove here. There is no imagination though there has been some confusion in the midst of fast-moving events. I have no reason to doubt FM Manekshaw or even VP Menon. And, what do you mean by 'a little later' and where did you read this in his account ?

I cursorily glanced through Gen Sen's book on the Kashmir ops once (Slender thread or some title like that) - to my eternal regret didnt pick it up! I missed his mention of the presence of Patiala forces, but dont think the Pakistanis base their "legal" arguments on Gen Sen at all..Whatever I have read of the Paki analysis, they seem to refer a lot to VP Menon's account, besides the usual balderdash on "promised plebiscite" etc..

I have not read Sen's book and I haven't even seen it. I am not sure if VP Menon has himself referred to sighting of Patiala Regiment in Srinagar on the 27th because he would have gone to Jammu on the 27th, if at all, and not to Srinagar which he visited on the evening of 25th and left early morning 26th. That intervening night between 25th & 26th, Hari Singh was asked by Menon and FM Manekshaw to leave for Jammu, which he himself was planning anyway. FM Manekshaw would have been the first person to notice Patiala Regiment (between VP Menon and Manekshaw) and he has been categorical he didn't see them.

about the airlift itself, while presence of experienced RIAF officers were a help, commandeering a civilian fleet isnt all that easy. (Unrelated, but we saw the confusion during 26/11 to get an aircraft for the NSG)..And by some accounts we used a vast majority of the aircraft fleet available in the country - to pull it off would have required a great deal of prior plannign and "pre work", no?

As for airlift, let me quote from the MoD's papers on "Operation Jammu & Kashmir 1947-48". This is as authentic as it can get. This talks about airlift of men on the 27th.

Code: Select all

Flight            Composition                    Departure                      Place of Departure

6 Dakotas              Civil                         0500                          Safdarjung
3 Dakotas              RIAF                          0500                          Palam
8 Dakotas              RIAF                          1100                          Palam
11 Dakotas             RIAF                          1300                          Palam

MoD papers also state and I quote

Each civil Dakota was to carry 15 men with their personal arms and bed-rolls, plus 25-kg of supplies; each RIAF Dakota was to carry an additional two men. Every flight was to be tactically and administratively self-contained, so that, if necessary, troops could go into action immediately on landing. In the third or the fourth flight were to be carried one officer and two NCOs of the RIE to instruct survivors of the State troops in the rudiments of bridge demolition, a Liaison Officer (Brig. Hira Lal Atal) from the Army HQ (India) to the local government, another Liaison officer from the States Ministryand an Intelligence Officer from the Directorate of Military Operations, also three cipher operators and a medical detachment of two officers and ten men.

That was Phase I to secure Srinagar and Phase II of 'Operation Jak' for a larger operation was ordered on Oct 28 which took another three days to build. It involved the despatch of the one Brigade Group to Jammu via the Pathankot road. At the same time, Delhi and East Punjab Command was also ordered to send one Brigade HQ (HQ 161 Indian Infantry Brigade), a signal section, one infantry battalion, and one platoon of MMG to Srinagar. These reinforcements were to be despatched by air on 29th & 30th October, so that the Srinagar Contingent could be brought up to the strength of one brigade asap.

[SSridhar]

I actually never thought of the logistics of the airlift and more i think about it, more inclined i am to agree with Somnath. The plan was in place; the execution was done when we got what we wanted - the signing of the Instrument of Accession.

Alexis, there is nothing wrong with planning and the military always has plans for multiple contingencies. However, it was somnath's contention that Indian military, with its inexperience, could not have mobilized within a day and hence, by implication, airlift should have started much earlier which means before signing the Accession papers. That is the point in contention here.

[somnath]

I really don't know what you are trying to prove here. There is no imagination though there has been some confusion in the midst of fast-moving events. I have no reason to doubt FM Manekshaw or even VP Menon. And, what do you mean by 'a little later' and where did you read this in his account ?


As for airlift, let me quote from the MoD's papers on "Operation Jammu & Kashmir 1947-48". This is as authentic as it can get. This talks about airlift of men on the 27th.

Code: Select all

Flight Composition Departure Place of Departure

6 Dakotas Civil 0500 Safdarjung
3 Dakotas RIAF 0500 Palam
8 Dakotas RIAF 1100 Palam
11 Dakotas RIAF 1300 Palam

MoD papers also state and I quote

Each civil Dakota was to carry 15 men with their personal arms and bed-rolls, plus 25-kg of supplies; each RIAF Dakota was to carry an additional two men. Every flight was to be tactically and administratively self-contained, so that, if necessary, troops could go into action immediately on landing. In the third or the fourth flight were to be carried one officer and two NCOs of the RIE to instruct survivors of the State troops in the rudiments of bridge demolition, a Liaison Officer (Brig. Hira Lal Atal) from the Army HQ (India) to the local government, another Liaison officer from the States Ministryand an Intelligence Officer from the Directorate of Military Operations, also three cipher operators and a medical detachment of two officers and ten men.

That was Phase I to secure Srinagar and Phase II of 'Operation Jak' for a larger operation was ordered on Oct 28 which took another three days to build. It involved the despatch of the one Brigade Group to Jammu via the Pathankot road. At the same time, Delhi and East Punjab Command was also ordered to send one Brigade HQ (HQ 161 Indian Infantry Brigade), a signal section, one infantry battalion, and one platoon of MMG to Srinagar. These reinforcements were to be despatched by air on 29th & 30th October, so that the Srinagar Contingent could be brought up to the strength of one brigade asap.

Sridhar, VP Menon mentions 26th and 27th in the same breath in at least a couple of places (cant remember the exact pages, will dig out)...A number of other accounts contest the 26th date more definitively with reasonable credibility..The point on the weather on the 26th, and therefore the inability for Menon to reach Jammu in the morning of the 26th (as also HAri Singh) is a well documented fact...The "neutral consensus" seems to be that the agreement was actually signed on the 27th morning, by which time troops were already at least in flight, if not landed in Srinagar. Among other sources, Peter Lyon's Conflict between India and Pakistan (page 97 - seems there is a copy in Google Books!)...

I thought you mentioned Gen LP Sen's allusion to seeing the Patiala State forces in your earlier post - I assumed it would be in his book..As I mentioned, I havent read the book myself...But that is not a widely used argument as far as I can tell...

Its interesting to see the data you posted...

8 Dakotas @ 1100 hours and 11 @ 1300 hours - so a total of 19 Dakotas from RIAF (given that the first flight couldnt have been turned around in 2 hours)...the official IAF account says that RIAF had only 7 Dakotas at that time!

http://indianairforce.nic.in/show_page.php?pg_id=68

The total aircraft strength of the RIAF at that time was as follows :-
1. Six Squadrons of Tempest fighter bomber aircraft with eight aircraft per squadron.

2. One Squadron of Dakota light transport aircraft with seven aircraft.

Twenty Spitfire fighter aircraft.
One Flight of Harvard fighter with four aircraft.

RIA would have made some contingency plans for sure...But the type of airlift set in motion almost in a flash does portend to a much longer (than 24 hours), deliberate and deliberated preparation (and for a joint RIA-RIAF ops, we still have so many challenges with joint ops even today!)....

But all this is but historical hair splitting, suitable for useless fora like the UN..So we always knew that we had to to bring in troops into Kashmir, the Maharaja's signature was only a fig leaf - so what? We did it, thats what matters...Pakis can stew their own juice and the UN can go jump (in the Dal Lake if you will!).

[vera_k]

about major powers precipitating the tribal invasion, its a fine conspiracy theory, but a bit rich...Consdering that most of US/USSR's energies were in gaining foothold in Europe for the Cold War, to think that Us/UK somehow conjured up a Kashmir invasion to create a "problem" for India is a trifle far fetched - at that time India anyway had far too many opther problems of its own, ones that led many to anyway opine on our demise as a nation state...they didnt need to create another one..JMT..

It's not about creating a "problem" for India, but about controlling Kashmir for their purposes (whatever they might be).
Consider this excerpt from Chapter 16 about why a Plebiscite never happened and was eventually abandoned by India-

A month after Sheikh Abdullah's arrest came Pakistan Prime Minister Mohammand Ali Bogra to New Delhi. At his meeting with Mr. Nehru it was agreed to hold an impartial plebiscite in Kashmir without the involvement of foreign powers. However, back home, Mr. Mohammad Ali Bogra could not carry his cabinet with him. After the assassination of Pakistan's first Prime Minister Liaquat Ali Khan, in 1951, the army under the leadership of Gen. Ayub Khan had begun to wield real power and the so-called civilian Government, under whatever Prime Minister, was merely a benami of the Army. And the Army acted under instructions from the United States. The Nehru-Mohammad Ali Bogra agreement cracked under pressure from the United States on Pakistan to retain Admiral Nimitz as the Plebiscite Administrator.

[Virupaksha]

Sridhar, VP Menon mentions 26th and 27th in the same breath in at least a couple of places (cant remember the exact pages, will dig out)...A number of other accounts contest the 26th date more definitively with reasonable credibility..The point on the weather on the 26th, and therefore the inability for Menon to reach Jammu in the morning of the 26th (as also HAri Singh) is a well documented fact...The "neutral consensus" seems to be that the agreement was actually signed on the 27th morning, by which time troops were already at least in flight, if not landed in Srinagar. Among other sources, Peter Lyon's Conflict between India and Pakistan (page 97 - seems there is a copy in Google Books!)...

somnath, Who is neutral here and consensus among whom? Even though you have put those words in quotes, your whole argument depends on that.

Basically you are saying, you will not believe an Indian's version who is actually a participant in the event but believe only a foreigner (who has his own vested interests) who was not a participant and wrote based on hearsay? Is that what you are saying?

[somnath]

somnath, Who is neutral here and consensus among whom? Even though you have put those words in quotes, your whole argument depends on that.

Basically you are saying, you will not believe an Indian's version who is actually a participant in the event but believe only a foreigner (who has his own vested interests) who was not a participant and wrote based on hearsay? Is that what you are saying?

To start with, VP Menon's account (Integration of Indian States) has quite ambiguous references to the dates (especially the key ones 26th and 27th)..The Pakistanis use them quite often to argue their case..As to "neutral" - history is always written with the author's bias in built! Any number of non-Indian, non-Paki sources - Peter Lyon I mentioned above, Alistair Lamb in his Kashmir-a disputed legacy - argue with conviction about the dates..

And I see no problem with that...High politics is not played according to laws and rules...laws and rules are meant for the "weak", the powers make their own laws, as we did...

[SSridhar]

VP Menon mentions 26th and 27th in the same breath in at least a couple of places (cant remember the exact pages, will dig out)...A number of other accounts contest the 26th date more definitively with reasonable credibility..The point on the weather on the 26th, and therefore the inability for Menon to reach Jammu in the morning of the 26th (as also HAri Singh) is a well documented fact...The "neutral consensus" seems to be that the agreement was actually signed on the 27th morning, by which time troops were already at least in flight, if not landed in Srinagar. Among other sources, Peter Lyon's Conflict between India and Pakistan (page 97 - seems there is a copy in Google Books!)...

It is well documented that on 25th, Hari Singh had sent his Deputy PM with the Instrument of Accession to Nehru. Nehru did not accept that. VP Menon took the letter with him on 25th evening to Srinagar and brought it back on 26th morning. This was presented to the Defence Committee. I will again say, that FM Manekshaw whose integrity is too well known, has categorically stated that he was present at the meeting when the Instrument of Accession was presented to the Cabinet and discussed. I do not want to believe Peter Lyon or Alistair Lamb because they were simply not there but Manekshaw flew with VP Menon, was there at Srinagar as well as at New Delhi physically attending the Defence Committee meeting when all this happened. After all, those English authors could have had only second-hand information.

As for VP Menon not going to Jammu on 26th, it is true he did not go. He went to Palam around 4 PM but was turned back because it was already late in the evening and the weather at Jammu was not good. So, he flew in the next day morning by around 9 or 10 AM as Mehr Chand Mahajan, who was accompanying him from Delhi, could not come earlier than that. VP Menon was certainly carrying some papers with him. It could either have been a letter of acceptance from GoI to Hari Singh on the Instrument of Accession (which certainly was due to him) or some other paper which also needed the Maharaja's signature. In the fog of events, VP Menon might have missed the date but that is, at the most, a minor slip especially when the Defence Committee had seen the Instrument of Accession earlier that day and decided to accept it. One has to consider the enormous responsibility, travelling, discussions and meeting that VP Menon had to undertake during those days when telephones were not widely available and the transportation was rudimentary as he went about the task of gathering 360+ princely states into the Indian Union. Even while talking about the uselessness of hair-splitting, you are advancing the very same with these dates which exist in the imagination of Pakistanis and Pakistani-sponsored 'historians'.

Its interesting to see the data you posted...

8 Dakotas @ 1100 hours and 11 @ 1300 hours - so a total of 19 Dakotas from RIAF (given that the first flight couldnt have been turned around in 2 hours)...the official IAF account says that RIAF had only 7 Dakotas at that time!

I am sure that the Ministry of Defence, if it had wanted to lie about the airlift, would not have missed such a simple thing that even we can point out so easily. There are various accounts that all dakotas that landed at Delhi were commandeered for this purpose. The nomenclature of Civilian or RIAF could have been according to where they took off from or who piloted them etc. Kuldip Singh bajwa says in his book, "Jammu and Kashmir War -1947-48" that "28 sorties were flown on Oct 27 itself" though the RIAF could muster only 4 Dakota a/c immediately but all civilian a/c based at Delhi or landing there were taken over by RIAF with 'unstinted response from the airlines and the civilian crew'. He goes on to say that 'thirty Dakotas were soon gathered and 50 to 60 sorties were flown each day'. Mountbatten had said later that in all his extensive experience as Supreme Allied Commander in SE Asia during WW II, he had not seen an airlift of this magnitude being successfully undertaken with such slender resources, and at such short notice.

So we always knew that we had to to bring in troops into Kashmir, the Maharaja's signature was only a fig leaf - so what? We did it, thats what matters

somnath, no that's not accurate either. India had sent word to Maharajah Hari Singh that India wouldn't take it amiss if he decided to join Pakistan. So, it was not as though India was desperate to have J&K as part of India and devised such convoluted plans to get it. In fact, VP Menon says in his book that he was too involved with various other princely states that J&K was not in his mind at all until the situation developed there nastily.

My point is that whether we like it or not, India had been far more principled than most other nations, or how most other nations would have behaved if ever they were in such a situation, when it came to the unfortunate events surrounding the Partition.

[somnath]

India had sent word to Maharajah Hari Singh that India wouldn't take it amiss if he decided to join Pakistan. So, it was not as though India was desperate to have J&K as part of India and devised such convoluted plans to get it. In fact, VP Menon says in his book that he was too involved with various other princely states that J&K was not in his mind at all until the situation developed there nastily.

I would be very disappointed if we didnt. J&K was/is of immense strategic importance to India, not least bcause of it being the beachhead of all major rivers...The Indian leadership showed great foresight in retaining the claims over Andaman Islands (Britain at one stage suggested that its status be similar to Diego Garcia, and even Paksitan lay a claim over it)...I would be very surprised if they did not display the same foresight on Kashmir, even if the execution was not entirely flawless...

As Coca Cola's senior managers said after the New Coke fiasco - "we were not dumb enough to do it without adequate analysis, we were not clever enough to do it for the publicity"...(OT here, but those who know the story would relate)...
The rest, as I said before, and I guess you concur, is for the historians to mull over...Doesnt impact realpolitik...

[rkirankr]

Sorry if posted earlier
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/NEWS ... 768680.cms

[SSridhar]

India had sent word to Maharajah Hari Singh that India wouldn't take it amiss if he decided to join Pakistan. So, it was not as though India was desperate to have J&K as part of India and devised such convoluted plans to get it. In fact, VP Menon says in his book that he was too involved with various other princely states that J&K was not in his mind at all until the situation developed there nastily.

I would be very disappointed if we didnt. J&K was/is of immense strategic importance to India, not least bcause of it being the beachhead of all major rivers...

I didn't mean it in that sense. Pakistan went to extraordinary lengths to grab J&K. When Hari Singh delayed his decision, Pakistan became desperate and the sanction to employ fraud and subterfuge was authorized at the highest level (certainly Liaqat Ali and most probably also Jinnah) to invade J&K and get it at any cost. Such was not the case with India. That was not only in the case of J&K, but also in the cases of Junagarh, Hyderabad or even Travancore. And, when India had to eventually resort to some action, it stuck to principled positions even to its detriment as we see in J&K till this day. That was the import of my statement.

[chetak]

quote="SSridhar"

India had sent word to Maharajah Hari Singh that India wouldn't take it amiss if he decided to join Pakistan. So, it was not as though India was desperate to have J&K as part of India and devised such convoluted plans to get it. In fact, VP Menon says in his book that he was too involved with various other princely states that J&K was not in his mind at all until the situation developed there nastily.

/quote

I would be very disappointed if we didnt. J&K was/is of immense strategic importance to India, not least bcause of it being the beachhead of all major rivers...

I didn't mean it in that sense. Pakistan went to extraordinary lengths to grab J&K. When Hari Singh delayed his decision, Pakistan became desperate and the sanction to employ fraud and subterfuge was authorized at the highest level (certainly Liaqat Ali and most probably also Jinnah) to invade J&K and get it at any cost. Such was not the case with India. That was not only in the case of J&K, but also in the cases of Junagarh, Hyderabad or even Travancore. And, when India had to eventually resort to some action, it stuck to principled positions even to its detriment as we see in J&K till this day. That was the import of my statement.

In the end, possession is nine tenths of the law

[ramana]

Chetak, Thats a Pakiesque comment.

SSridhar is quoting hazar pages to show that India was doing the right thing in following the process to its own disadvantage and then you pull this non sequitor. Looks like we have league fo self goalies!

[sudeepj]

As usual, truth and murder will out, but the question is, will those who fanned the flames be brought to justice. Perhaps a PIL filed in Jammu to bring to book the closet Islamists who printed vile propaganda is in order.

http://www.hindu.com/2009/07/12/stories ... 830800.htm

Media misrepresented key facts on Shopian rape-murder

Praveen Swami

Journalists share responsibility for fanning south Kashmir violence, judge says.

Following the release of the findings of the Justice Muzaffar Jan Commission of Enquiry on Friday, the Jammu and Kashmir government has announced that it intends to prosecute four police officials for some of those failures.

But both journalists and the Jammu and Kashmir government have maintained a stoic silence on one institution blamed by Justice Jan for spreading falsehood and inciting violence: the media itself.

For the most part, Justice Jan found, the media misrepresented forensic evidence. Media accounts insisted that both women appeared to have been badly beaten and gang raped. However, the Jan Commission states, pathologists found no evidence to support the proposition of gang rape. Moreover, only one victim’s body was found to bear visible external injuries. Claims that one victim was pregnant at the time of her death, Justice Jan states, were also wrong.

Perhaps in order to buttress claims that the two women had been raped before they were killed, some journalists asserted that their clothes were torn. However, witnesses interviewed by the Jan Commission said that the women’s Feran and shalwar were intact.

Most disturbing, though, is Justice Jan’s finding that the media incited hatred by broadcasting communal propaganda.

Based on the accounts of individuals claiming to be eyewitnesses, newspapers said that one victim’s forehead had been smeared with sindoor — an allegation that suggested that the rapists were Hindus, and the rape itself macabre religion-driven hate crime. However, the Commission noted, the red marks on her forehead were in fact blood from a head wound. “The flow of blood,” the report states, “was shamefully distorted and projected as a mark of sindoor.”

[Prem]

These Journalists should be given proper eye opening treatment with number 12 Chittar. Next time they will be careful before indulging in such religiously motivated Fitna.

[ramana]

Can we use google bhai and make a list of the journalists and their reports?

Does the Jan commission have a compilation of this perfidy?

Looks like the fourth estate (press) is really a fifth column (spies).

---------------
Answering myself, thanks to Hindu newspaper.

Full text of Justice Jan's report

So can we have volunteers read it and collate the relevant parts?

[chetak]

Can we use google bhai and make a list of the journalists and their reports?

Does the Jan commission have a compilation of this perfidy?

Looks like the fourth estate (press) is really a fifth column (spies).

---------------
Answering myself, thanks to Hindu newspaper.

Full text of Justice Jan's report

So can we have volunteers read it and collate the relevant parts?

This is a case of sour grapes. omar abdullah did not accept to include pdp in his government. The prospect of five years in the wilderness has unnerved the pdp.

The not so fine hand of mehbooba mufti and her porki handlers is all over this one.

The pakis are using her to rake up the case for amreki intervention in kashmir, ably assisted by their ever loyal fifth column in j&k.

Even more ably supported by our own DDM.

[chetak]

Shopian case in the TOI

'Shopian rape, murders a family feud?'

M Saleem Pandit , TNN 12 July 2009, 01:44pm IST

SRINAGAR: The one-man panel appointed by the J&K government to probe the rape and murder of two women in Shopian appears to have gone soft on
security forces accused of the crimes and has instead said that the killings could be a result of a family feud. It said that the victims' brothers could be suspects.

Although the panel in its final 400-page report submitted to the government last Tuesday has called for more investigation into the role of security forces personnel, it has also brought out new ‘‘facts'' of the case. It has cast doubts on the moral character of one of the victims, Neelofer Jan, and her husband Shakeel Ahmad Ahanger, brother of second victim Asiya Jan.

It said Neelofer Jan belonged to a higher caste of Peer, whereas Shakeel came from Khaar family, which is included in the OBC category. The report said ever since the two eloped in 2007, Neelofer's brother Syed Zeerak Shah, a constable in traffic department, was not happy with the marriage and had even threatened the Ahanger family of dire consequences. ‘‘The conduct of Zeerak Shah has been highly suspicious and objectionable after the death of Neelofar and Asiya Jan,'' the commission said.

Zeerak is also accused of having instigated the people against the government. ‘‘A departmental action may be initiated against Shah,'' the panel said. It also has said there was clear indication suggesting enmity between Neelofar's maiden family and her in-laws.

‘‘Shakeel Ahanger does not carry a good reputation in the society and is being known for his immoral activities. His assets are quite disproportionate to his known sources of income, requiring investigation to work out the possibility of Shakeel and his friends/associates' role in the present incident,'' the report said.

During the probe, the commission found that after eloping with Neelofar, Ahanger had moved out of the district. He, however, returned and started his own business in readymade furniture and got separated from his family.

‘‘Despite the fact that he was taking care of education and other expenses of two sisters, Roomi and Asiya, and was meeting additional expenditure after the birth of his child, he purchased orchards and even a car,'' the report pointed out.

Doubting the character of Neelofer, Justice Jan said she had ‘‘developed contacts'' at an orchard in Nagabal, Shopian. ‘‘The examination of the witnesses has suggested that Neelofer, Roomi and Asyia Jan were frequent visitors to an orchard at Nagabal. During her visits in the last few months, Neelofar might have developed relations with other persons and Shakeel might have come to know about her relations,'' the report said.

The panel, going beyond its terms of reference, has also criticized the role of the media in provoking people's sentiments and called for ‘‘firm guidelines for reporting such news''.

[RayC]

I have dealt with Mehbooba.

Less said the better!

She was put in her place when she rang me up and should now be told her place!

Her father held the Indian govt to ransom to rescue his daughter.

Family first, nation later!

That is what would be written in their coat of arms, if they ever get one!

[Muppalla]

Lull in terror acts as ‘clinical strikes’ planned on Army

Central intelligence agencies keeping a close watch on the activities of trained terrorist groups have warned against “fresh clinical strikes” by militants on strategic Indian Army installations and different field formations located along the 750-km Line of Control (LoC) in Jammu and Kashmir.

The Central agencies raised the issue of “terror threat” to Army installations during a recent high-level security meeting and requested the counter-insurgency grid to strengthen patrol and “electronic surveillance” to prevent any such strike.

A senior security official, who was at the meeting, told The Pioneer, “The Central intelligence agencies, while discussing the issue of constant lull from the militants’ side, had expressed fears that they could be preparing for a big strike on Indian Army installations along LoC and the alert call should not be treated as routine.”

Army field commanders gave the intelligence agencies a patient hearing and, after analysing the “wake-up call”, directed the counter-insurgency grid to strengthen their defences.

The directions were also passed to the field commanders deployed at strategic locations to enhance routine patrol near sector headquarters and along the LoC to prevent any such misadventure by terrorists. The directions to keep a tight vigil on the activity of local villagers and youth vulnerable to allurements by local militants were also passed.

Troops of Rashtriya Rifles are deployed all along the LoC in Jammu and Kashmir and form the first line of defence.

During the security meeting, the field commanders are also learnt to have assured the security grid that they were well equipped to tackle terror threats. “Our men are deployed all along the LoC and we have plugged major infiltration routes, apart from maintaining a high level of surveillance in and around the Army camps to prevent such attacks,” a senior Army officer of the 16 Corps headquarters briefed the meeting while responding to the terror alert.

The Central agencies are believed to have studied the pattern of infiltration bids from across the LoC before concluding their assessment. In 2009, big groups of terrorists — equipped with sophisticated winter clothing and large quantities of arms and ammunition — have made abortive bids to infiltrate North Kashmir and Poonch sector. As per rough estimates, more than 150 infiltrators have crossed over from across the LoC and managed to reach secured hideouts for executing their terror plans.

During the high-level meeting, the Central intelligence agencies are also learnt to have shared inputs about the excessive usage of ‘satellite phones’ by terrorist commanders to stay in touch with their mentors sitting across the LoC. They also revealed that after the Mumbai terror attack, the frequency of satellite phone usage had hit rock bottom but in the recent months it has again picked up and is as high as 7-8 on a scale of 1-10. “Satellite phone calls which originated from Pakistan-occupied Kashmir are now being traced inside the Indian territory,” the meeting was informed by a Central intelligence agency.

Meanwhile, various security agencies in Jammu and Kashmir — on the basis of interrogation reports of arrested terrorists — have also concluded that they have adopted a tactical shift in their core planning. A security official said that after infiltrating into India, the terrorists are lying low and not undertaking any major activity.

“This is an alarming trend. If these militants are not doing anything, then what is their game plan?” an officer pointed out. The officer said, “Instead of relying on trained cadre, the terrorists are now relying more on conduits and messengers to trans-ship arms consignments, hawala money or procuring SIM cards from private mobile operators. The terrorist commanders are focusing their energies on building strong teams of new recruits. The latter are handed over responsibilities on the basis of their performances on vital missions.”

[NRao]

With Mrs Clinton coming into ND on the 19th, we can expect a few fireworks by these yahoo Jihadis.

[p_saggu]

We all know that pakistan and its masters are into the = = game wrt india. Why don't we take out some camps when these terrorists are carrying out attacks in kashmir when Ms Clinton is visiting?
Let there be = = all the way. It shouldn't be difficult to bring the revolution to POK or Pakistani Punjab - gawd knows there is no dearth of poor abduls in search of their 72 there who will be willing to tie on a suicide belt for 1 - 2 lakh pakistani rupees.

Why can't a couple of soosai bummers attack a terrorist training camp in Pakistan and take out the people training there? The soosai bummers can be told that these are kufr trainees.

[somnath]

One of the urgent lags in the Kashmir counter insurgency effort is the still prevalent dominance of the CPMF/IA in the CI effort. These forces will always carry the "outsider" tag, and therefore susceptible to real and imagined grievance mongering, many a time motivated...The local police on the other hand doesnt carry this burden...

the most notable feature of the Punjab CI experience was the phenomenon of a Jat Sikh led Jat Sikh dominated police force taking on the (primarily) Jat Sikh militancy....the neighbourhood policeman is the best source of (local) intel, and a well trained and equipped local police force can tackle local insurgencies without any of the "philosophical problems" pertaining to "outsiders"...

Recently Omar Abdullah mentioned that there isnt enough local police to completely replace the CRPF. Thats really unfrotunate.After 20 years of insurgency, adequate local policing capabilities have not been built up - as KPS Gill keeps saying, we tend to reinvent the wheel everytime rather than using our own experience!

[sourab_c]

Apart from external threat, we are facing a new wave of internal unrest in J&K. In the past few months, things have been far from normal in the region. Separatists are out in full force.

I think its time that India took a strong stance against these internal forces - Hurriyat and company.Start by arresting their leaders and mass arrest anyone who comes on the streets to protest- who is a clear traitor. These so called "freedom fighters" have been corrupting the young mind in Kashmir for far too long.

Take a look at this interview with our Honorable home minister-
http://www.ndtv.com/news/videos/video_p ... id=1134574

He clearly states that he has left everything on the state government and my question is WHY ??

And why would they ask CRPF to just leave without any judicial probe into the incidents that have happened a few weeks ago? That simply justifies the separatists' cause!!!!!!!

We need to handle this the Chinese way.

[somnath]

We need to handle this the Chinese way.

Then we would have to be China! For a start, censor the blogosphere (including those blogs that contain criticisms of the IA for rejecting Arjun! )

On a more serious note, in the last few years we have developed a great deal of finesse in the political handling of the Kashmir issue...Hurriyat and other seperatists are strongly clamped down on when it comes to strategic objectives (house arrests of all leaders during elections for example). In "normal" times, they are let free to keep exposng their irrelevance and more, toothlessness..The cooption of the PDP as a unionist party has been a massive success...More so after its got a stint in power as well..It has given separatist elements a "respectable platform" to negotiate within the contours of the Indian republic, and made the isolation of the Hurriyat even more galling. It forced Sajjad Lone to contest the election this time, and his loss effectively undercut the presumptuion of popular supprot for him (and by extension of the Hurriyat types)..

The Home Minister is leaving it to the state govt for a good reason - law and order, as well as local CI, is primarily a state govt responsibility..For far too long, the state admin in J&K has abdicated from the responsibility, leaving the Centre to hold the proverbial can as well as take the flak...Finally, the tipping point for the final solution need to come as a local CI response..the IA can provide a protecttive ring on the border to minimise the level of external support that comes in (which it is already doing)...But the dirty job of CI is best done by the local administration, the cuttign edge of which is the thana.....

The only way a flabby, complacent state govt aparatus is going to be goaded into action would be a threat of central withdrawal...Which is what I guess PC is doing now - he is virtually coaxing the state admin to tone up and build up their capacities by threatening to reduce/remove the CRPF...In Punjab, the Beant Singh-KPS Gill combine had done it proactively, obviously the Kashmiri political class and the state police apparatus is still lagging - they need a kick up their proverbials!

[RayC]

Somnath,

Good post.

Absolutely right.

Let the State handle the issue and be accountable to its people!

Central Forces can help, but within the ambit of the State Govt's plan.

The Army can do what it is supposed to do - protect against external threats.

[Sanku]

With the real truth is coming out after the probes in Shopian incident and the other one, I would think that it is the seperatist that are left red faced now. With all the nautanki about izzat of local Kashmiri's and what not it is a little amusing to find out that all the mayhem was done by the "pure" variety between themselves in ways and reasons which do not highly speak of their izzat.

Good going for them I say.

[SSridhar]

With the real truth is coming out after the probes in Shopian incident and the other one, I would think that it is the separatist that are left red faced now.

The time tested policy of Pakistan is to cause discomfort for India, create a bad image, incite religious riots, 'prove' human-rights violations, and sow seeds of suspicion in the minds of Indian Muslims about the intentions of GoI. Also, Pakistan has proven time and again that it doesn't mind losing both its eyes so long as it can hurt India in at least one eye. So, they will continue and intensify their efforts. So long as Pakistan exists in its current shape and content, it will follow that trajectory like a robot.

[SSridhar]

Asrar Mushtaq Murder Case Solved: J&K Police

Police on Wednesday claimed to have solved the murder of a 19-year-old youth, which led to violent protests and strikes in the Kashmir valley last week, by arresting two of his gymnasium-mates including the one who had allegedly killed him following a feud over a girl.

Giving details about the killing of the youth, which had brought Kashmir valley to a standstill for three days after his body was recovered from Rainawari area on July 8, police said there was a verbal dual between the deceased and his alleged killer Imran, a student himself, over a girl.

The arrest has put an end to the claims of separatists and second rung mainstream politicians that Mushtaq was allegedly killed in police custody.

Imran, who was arrested late last night, has allegedly told the police during interrogation that Asrar had been making advances towards his girlfriend (whose identity has not been disclosed).

[RayC]

With the real truth is coming out after the probes in Shopian incident and the other one, I would think that it is the separatist that are left red faced now.

The time tested policy of Pakistan is to cause discomfort for India, create a bad image, incite religious riots, 'prove' human-rights violations, and sow seeds of suspicion in the minds of Indian Muslims about the intentions of GoI. Also, Pakistan has proven time and again that it doesn't mind losing both its eyes so long as it can hurt India in at least one eye. So, they will continue and intensify their efforts. So long as Pakistan exists in its current shape and content, it will follow that trajectory like a robot.

Another truism!

[somnath]

The time tested policy of Pakistan is to cause discomfort for India, create a bad image, incite religious riots, 'prove' human-rights violations, and sow seeds of suspicion in the minds of Indian Muslims about the intentions of GoI. Also, Pakistan has proven time and again that it doesn't mind losing both its eyes so long as it can hurt India in at least one eye. So, they will continue and intensify their efforts. So long as Pakistan exists in its current shape and content, it will follow that trajectory like a robot.

But this state is the "best case scenario" for India in the foreseeable future. A Pakistan that is unbalanced, nervous, thrashing about, in an very very unstable disequilibrium...A stable Pakistan would like a china with jihadi predilections (nukes, focused national objectives et al)....... A broken up Pakistan will be a nightmarish scenario of multiple mad custodians of nukes, something like 3 or 4 North Koreas in our backyard, jihadis to boot!

The current state, where a relatively small but influential elite acts as a buffer to the jihadi groups in its own interest makes our lives much easier (than what would be in the alternative scenarios)..