Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Locked
Shreeman
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3762
Joined: 17 Jan 2007 15:31
Location: bositiveneuj.blogspot.com
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Shreeman »

Has anyone kept track of reactions from the arabian/momin countries? The eyeranians seem to talk of "unjust policies".
Sanjay
BRFite
Posts: 1224
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Chaguanas, Trinidad

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Sanjay »

Avram, frankly your comments are clouded in half-truths.

Apparently only 6 policemen at CST were armed. One RPF constable ML Chaudhary returned fire with his 0.303 but it failed to work after two rounds. M.L. Chaudhary died in the line of duty.

Does every US city have a fully equipped equivalent of the NSG around ? No. It's just the FBI HRT and Seal Team 5.

None of you have confronted anything like this. Not even in your worst scenarios. The fact is our army has fought and won major wars against an equally well armed and trained adversary. Our IS forces have a slew of tactical successes in COIN ops from J&K to the North East.

The supercilious, sneering, arrogant and condescending attitude of the Israelis (of Jenin and Ma'alot notoriety) , the Americans (through their journalists and self-appointed experts - forgetting their stellar performance at Waco and Ruby Ridge as well as the complete failure to deal properly with Columbine or Virginia Tech) and of course the Russians (of Beslan, Budyonnovsk, Kizlyar-Pervomayskoye and Moscow theatre fame) trumpeting their purported superiority in these types of operations is wholly unwarranted.

As far as intelligence goes - isn't it odd that nobody in the UK that great bastion of contempt for Indians was able to prevent either the 7/11 attacks and the Glasgow airport attacks - why hasn't the great BBC asked why there was such incompetence in their own intelligence services ?

This is not to sugar coat or ignore any shortcomings and failings in India. It is, however, to say categorically, that the critics of India's handling of things are no more competent and the record may actually show them to be less able to handle such a multiple hostage event.

As an aside and as a message to those in the Western media, anyone who doubts India's proof on Pakistan's involvement and questions India's evidence should remember that they invaded two countries on less of a pretext and the Israelis launch airstrikes against undefended civilian targets anytime one of their civilians gets hit with a stone. India and Indians are sick and tired of self-appointed experts and critics and the supercilious windbags of the Western media and political establishment who sneer at our allegations of Pakistani involvment in terror attacks in India.

By the actions of your so-called experts and the patronizing condescension of your media, you have provided psychological aid and succor to the terrorists who have hurt my people time and time again.

Enough is Enough.
Last edited by Sanjay on 01 Dec 2008 06:55, edited 1 time in total.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13534
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by A_Gupta »

Is there anyway India can strike targets in FATA or NWFP that would be also those that the US might want to strike? Point being that then they can hardly object.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Rahul M »

A_Gupta wrote:Is there anyway India can strike targets in FATA or NWFP that would be also those that the US might want to strike? Point being that then they can hardly object.
any call for attacking pak w/o taking out the nukes first is inviting suicide.

nukes first, then we can do anything we please with the pakis, our conventional superiority allows it.
bart
BRFite
Posts: 712
Joined: 04 Jan 2008 21:33

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by bart »

Gerard wrote:Mumbai terrorists were 'funded by cash raised in UK mosques'
Indian officials say at least one of the gunmen captured after the attacks is part of a Lashkar network.
I have found that most of the common public in the UK are more aligned to the Indian viewpoint.

When we talk about UK media we generally go to BBC/Guardian/Telegraph where we see articles and comments by delusional 'intellectuals'.

Reading the tabloids, smaller news sites and the comments on them seem to indicate that the opinion on the street is very much different from that of the tripe from the BBC. The Daily Mail has been pretty open in mentioning Pakistanis, Mosques etc in the context of terrorism.
jash_p
BRFite
Posts: 396
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 05:56

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by jash_p »

How true is it ?


India cancel Pakistan tour



Monday, December 01, 2008
NEW DELHI: India’s government has refused permission to send a cricket team for a full tour of Pakistan early next year following the deadly Mumbai attacks, India reported on Sunday.

The tour was cancelled amid a government probe into Pakistani links to the assaults on the country’s financial capital by heavily-armed militants that left nearly 200 people dead.
SureshP
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 10 Apr 2002 11:31

Post by SureshP »

Bush sends Rice to India in aftermath of attacks

By ANNE GEARAN – 22 minutes ago

WASHINGTON (AP) — President George W. Bush on Sunday dispatched Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to New Delhi in support of India following the terrorist attacks that killed nearly 200 people, including six Americans.

Rice and Bush wanted an opportunity "to express the condolences of the American government directly to the Indian government and the Indian people," Rice spokesman Sean McCormack said.

Rice was scheduled to leave Sunday night for a meeting in London and then travel to Brussels for a NATO gathering. On Wednesday, following the NATO meeting, she will travel to New Delhi, according to her new itinerary.

"Secretary Rice's visit to India is a further demonstration of the United States' commitment to stand in solidarity with the people of India as we all work together to hold these extremists accountable," White House press secretary Dana Perino said in a statement.


Rice had planned to attend the meeting of NATO foreign ministers Tuesday and Wednesday, with talks focusing on a broad international agenda, including Afghanistan, Georgia and the Ukraine. From there she was to visit Rome, Helsinki and Copenhagen, but it was unclear whether the trip to India would cancel or only postpone those visits.

Rice spoke with President-elect Barack Obama about India earlier on Sunday, McCormack said. It was the third phone conversation between the two since the attacks. Rice has also been in daily phone contact with Indian and Pakistani officials.

The announcement of Rice's trip came hours after Bush assured India's leader that the U.S. government will put its full weight behind the investigation into the attacks in Mumbai.


Earlier Sunday, a Republican senator endorsed a campaign suggestion from President-elect Barack Obama — appointment of a special envoy, perhaps former President Bill Clinton, to the disputed region of Kashmir — as the U.S. seeks to ease tensions between India and its nuclear-armed neighbor Pakistan.

The lone gunman captured by police after the attacks told authorities he belonged to a Pakistani militant group with links to Kashmir, a senior Indian police officer said. India has blamed "elements" from Pakistan for the 60-hour siege during which suspected Muslim militants hit 10 sites across India's financial capital, leaving at least 174 dead.

Bush told India's prime minister, Manmohan Singh, in a telephone call that "out of this tragedy can come an opportunity to hold these extremists accountable and demonstrate the world's shared commitment to combat terrorism," White House spokesman Gordon Johndroe said in a statement.

In addition to the Americans killed in the coordinated shooting rampage in India's financial capital, the foreigners among the dead included Germans, Canadians, Israelis and nationals from Britain, Italy, Japan, China, Thailand, Australia and Singapore.

Bush told the prime minister that "he has directed the state and defense departments along with other federal agencies to devote the necessary resources and personnel to this situation," Johndroe said.

Despite India's claim, Pakistan's ambassador to the United States, Husain Haqqani, said: "I don't think that this is the time for India or anybody in India to accuse Pakistan. It's time to work with Pakistan. Pakistan is now a democracy. India is a democracy. And as two democracies, we need to strengthen each other, rather than fall into the trap of the terrorists, who want us to fight with each other so that they can get greater strength."

India repeatedly has accused Pakistan of complicity in terrorist attacks on its soil, many of which it traces to militant groups fighting Indian rule in the divided Himalayan territory of Kashmir. The U.S. has tried to persuade Pakistan to shift its security focus from India, with which it has fought three wars, to Islamic militants along the Afghan border.

Obama told Time magazine in an interview in October that "Kashmir in particular is an interesting situation ... that is obviously a potential tar pit diplomatically." He spoke of devoting "serious diplomatic resources to get a special envoy in there to figure out a plausible approach." When asked if that sounded like a job for Clinton, Obama replied, "Might not be bad" and that they had spoken about the issue when they had lunch in September in Clinton's New York office.

The suggestion of sending an envoy won support from a leading Republican senator.

"I would think that might be a good idea because, it appears to me, that we have an interlocking situation of Afghanistan, Pakistan and India," said Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, top Republican on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.

Asked specifically about Clinton as a possible mediator, Lugar said: "I think he could do a great job there."

Lugar and Haqqani appeared on ABC's "This Week."
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/art ... gD94PJR8G0
krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by krishnan »

because dhoni and seniors talked to those BCCI goons and told them clearly that we wont go there
Saral
BRFite
Posts: 1663
Joined: 16 Jan 2005 14:05

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Saral »

reposting a blog post from the net

original link: http://captaink.blogspot.com/2008/12/mu ... -2611.html

Im writing this article to get my thoughts out there but also to respond to many questions i have heard on twitter and clear up some of the disinformation that i have heard on the press and the UK and US tv channels.

The main objective was to attack US and British nationals.
That would certainly be the dominant view that has been expressed by the UK and US media, but it is not the main reason. Certainly the explicit targeting of UK and US nationals amongst other nationals, has Internationalized the situation. The objectives of the these terrorists are multi-dimensional, this is just one in a continued spate of attacks that have occurred in India over the last few years (one would argue 2 decades). Firstly, the idea is to split the secular line that has held India together for a Millenia, by creating a fault-line between the Hindu majority and the Muslim minority the terrorists achieve their objective of creating civil disharmony across India. Secondly, it was meant to be an attack on Globalization, an attack on free-spirit, free market thinking, democracy and global commerce in a part of the country where foreigners like to do business. Places like the Taj Palace Hotel are where people "do business". In a country growing at 9% GDP, there is concentration of dynamic innovation and deal making that was happening in Mumbai. So by targeting Mumbai they wanted to fracture the heart of the financial a d business community at a time when the world economy was weak. Thirdly, as you say it was an attack on foreign nationals to believe that India is not a safe place to do business and not a safe place to visit and a reminder to US/UK for their foreign policy in Afghanistan/Iraq, but it was not the main reason.

Al-Qaeda
The name Al-Qaeda has become a very simple label to be used for the various factions and sub groups that operate across the globe on an International, State, inner-State level. As such Al-Qaeda may not be a command and control hierarchy that is involved in these attacks -- But what is left of the Al-Qaeda infrastructure is firmly situated in Afghanistan and Pakistan. That there are many separate offshoot groups in Pakistan (like Lashkar-e-Tayyaba and Jaish-e-Mohammad) that are linked to Al-Qaeda should hardly be surprising.

Predictably India blames Pakistan.
Lets be clear here. What India has been saying for the last 10-20 years is that they are not happy that Pakistan is turning a blind eye whilst terrorist organizations are freely allowed to recruit, train and carry out cross-border terrorist activities. India has been very clear about this in the many negotiations and dialogues, where they have asked Pakistan to 'remove the terrorist infrastructure which is within Pakistani borders'. The fact that Pakistan has not removed these groups is viewed by India with much mistrust and seen as tacit indirect approval from Pakistan.

Lashkar e-Tayibba (LeT) - based in Pakistan.
What needs to understood is that there have been many bombs and attacks on India's sovereignty over the last 20-years... In the last 2-years over 4000 people have died from terrorist bombs in India that is second only to Iraq! Lashkar e-Tayyibba were identified in the Mumbai blasts in 2006 (article i wrote in 2006). Lashkar-e-Tayyaba were involved in the Ayodhya bombings in 2005, the Hindu holy city of Varanasi in 2005. Certainly the terrorist that was caught had admitted he was trained by the LeT in Pakistan and satellite phone communications was intercepted back to Karachi in Pakistan. Let us not forget the machine gun attacks in the India Parliment in 2001 which led to 1M Indian armed forces facing the Pakistan border, was also traced back to the LeT.

On final point India's Elite National Security Guard (NSG) commandos were dispatched to deal with the terrorist threat at the Hotels and it took them 3-days to secure the Hotel. It was a highly organized mission that took over 3-6 months to plan; the terrorists had detailed internal maps of the hotels; were expertly trained at short-fire burst shooting of the AK47. Were operating for 3-days without sleep which means that they had taken performance drugs (e.g. Adrenalin, LSD, Cocaine). Contrary to what the press has said, this was a highly trained and organized outfit. So its quite reasonable for India to blame Pakistan, for more complex reasons that i will explain further.

Secular Pakistan
This is a gross error -- Pakistan is not a secular country. Pakistan was created during the partition of India to be an Islamic Republic. They refer to it as the "Land of the Pure". When Pakistan was created, Hindus made up 20% of the population, today the Hindu population is 2%.

LeT - why would they deny involvement?
LeT have strong links with parts of the Pakistani Secret Service (ISI) which runs and operates within it own network separate to the state. This is a point that many people get confused about, Pakistan the State, the Army and the ISI Secret Service have had a long and independent / interdependent history. One would argue that the idea of Pakistan as a democratic state is a relatively new phenomenon. With the real institutional power and control being held through the ISI and Pakistan Army. The ISI were recipients of millions of dollars of funding from the Saudis and the CIA which led to the creation of Madrassas (religious Schools) across Pakistan which was used to create the Taliban. Well when the Afghanistan war ended and Taliban took control of Afghanistan, what happened to the Madrassass and offshoots of the Taliban that stay in Pakistan. Well they are still in Pakistan fighting a proxy war with India over Kashmir. So organizations like the LeT have strong reasons to not admit anything because the links between LeT and ISI are far stronger and after the Mumbai attacks the pressure to reign them in will be stronger.

One final point, all the terrorists were supposed to kill to the death, it was not expected that any would be captured. But given that one was actually captured, why did he admit to being trained by LeT?

Why would Pakistan openly be involved in something like this?
I agree. It doesn't make sense for Pakistan "The State" to be involved in something like this. But please as i mentioned before there is a complex infrastructure made up of the ISI and the Pakistani Army that harbors Anti-Hindu, Anti-India ideologies that have fostered since the partition which then worsened under General Zia who Islamized Pakistan even further. Yes there is professional, educated middle-class but it is small, and has not had much voice so far. So to be clear here, when you talk about Pakistan you need to be clear which aspect you are talking about. By any standard Pakistan is a "failed state" and at risk of heading in the same direction as Somalia, this is not good for anyone to see happen. Only last month it had to borrow $7Bn from the IMF to ensure it didn't default on its debt liabilities. As i had mentioned there are parts of the ISI and the Pakistan Army that has an institutional memory which still even today cannot "get over" the fact that they lost India. You have to remember that the Mughals ruled India for 700-years when they invaded India and as such believe that they are the true rulers of India and the Hindus are their subjects. So after partition this has created a resentment that never really disappeared and a misguided insecure superiority complex which has defined Pakistani politics. This animosity is further worsened by the fact that when Pakistan looks at its economical growth in comparison to India which is seen as an emerging Super Power that will have the 3rd largest economy behind China and the USA by 2050. So there is much resentment and very little inertia to change current institutional thinking.

Pakistan - timebomb
As mentioned earlier, there is little inertia to change existing institutional thinking which hasn't evolved since the creation of Pakistan. So a country which was built around a Pro-Islam, Anti-Hindu, Anti-India ideology is still festering in many parts of the country and it will take time for that to change. But it cannot change unless its replaced with a new vision for the country, yet it has to do that whilst dealing with a Civil War which internally is eating up the country and with problems on both its borders while not being able to grow its economy. Yes it is a failed state and it will unfortunately continue to be so for a long time. I am pretty sure that Barack Obama's #1 concern is the safe keeping of the Nuclear Weapons in Pakistan (which were kindly donated by the Chinese).

What are the terrorists motivations?
India is not a country that had invaded another country in her 5000-year history, a reputation unequaled by any other civilization in history and based on the timeless deeply spiritual values of "Ahimsa", which means non-violence. The same philosophy followed by Mahatma Gandhi. In the last 2-years Islamic terrorists have bombed Mumbai, Bangalore, Delhi, Assam, Orissa, Mumbai. Each one has been different and different number of people have died -- but yet India has not responded in a coordinated or directed response. It is a process of a thousand cuts that these terrorists intend to bleed India. Unlike 9/11.... Each attack is designed not to exceed a certain threshold, but as a total it is designed to test the limits and patience of the country. And the terrorists know that. They would not dare try something of the scale of 9/11, it simply doesn't make sense. But each individual attack is designed to push India further over the top.

And you may ask what is the point of this? -- Islamic Fundamentalism has moved beyond the issue of Kashmir. Kashmir is demarcated with a Line of Control and its borders will one day be remapped against those lines. There is more political alignment between India and Pakistan on this issue than most people realize. But Islamic Fundamentalism has already moved to Fascism and the only place left for it now is Anarchic Nihilism. You see the world is changing, people are getting wealthier, more educated, the internet is opening peoples eyes, telecommunication and media is making the world smaller, newer generations are giving up on the ideas of their parents generations and are learning at a much faster rate. They can see what is happening in India as a template of what could happen in Pakistan. That is why these attacks are designed to break India's resolve as they try and deal with Pakistan "The State" to ensure that both countries cannot move forward to second or third base.


Where did India go wrong?
Failure in Governance - the UPA Congress Party are a coalition government that needed to seek out other parties, minority parties to form a government. Each of these minority parties have their own expectations and motivations which need to be met. Which has made the Government very ineffective as it has to pander to everyone. Secondly with 15% of the population Muslim, that is a valuable vote that they cannot afford to disenfranchise, which has meant that targeting radical schools and groups within India has become impossible. In short the government has become limp through inaction at the risk of losing power, but general elections next May, it is a certainty that this current government will be out. To appease the minorities, when Congress came into power in 2004 the first thing they did was to dismantle and scrap Federal anti-terror laws. In short, the last 4-years of government has been viewed by most observers as spineless.

One final point -- Pseudo Intellectualism.
There is a pseudo intellectual view point common with many of intelligentsia press which likes to view that Pakistan is not responsible for these troubles and as such politicians and the press take a contrarian view from the most obvious answer. When you look at the mess that is in Kashmir, Pakistan, the Madrassas, the Taliban, Osama Bin Ladens hiding, it is simply impossible to think that the problem is coming from somewhere else.
Last edited by Saral on 01 Dec 2008 07:00, edited 1 time in total.
kobe
BRFite
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 14:26
Location: Tang Bohu' Village, Suzhou

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by kobe »

Rahul M wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Is there anyway India can strike targets in FATA or NWFP that would be also those that the US might want to strike? Point being that then they can hardly object.
any call for attacking pak w/o taking out the nukes first is inviting suicide.

nukes first, then we can do anything we please with the pakis, our conventional superiority allows it.
absolutely wrong!! this kind of thinking has allowed pakistan to nuclear blackmail india and continue the low-intensity conflict.

india should bomb key targets in pakistan, if they raise the stakes with nuclear weapons, then it becomes everyone's problem, and will force USA to de-nuclearise the pigs even faster.

after xerox-khan's exploits, USA has realized that pakistan must be de-fanged and things are slowly moving in that direction. even china has started seeing pakistan as a liability
(current refusal to give them bheekh)

Different Topic:
ABC News clip:
Cafe Leopold tried to open just now, police told them to wait.
A_Gupta
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13534
Joined: 23 Oct 2001 11:31
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by A_Gupta »

Shreeman, Saudi Arabia condemned the attacks in Mumbai, but the article in which I saw it had some analyst pointing out that Saudis fund this stuff, so they are being two-faced.

Kuwait condemned the attacks. I couldn't find anything from UAE (but doesn't mean that they didn't). Indonesia and Malaysia condemned the attacks. Afghanistan did. Just checked, and it was a good statement, unlike the meally-mouthed Iranians.


Sana''a, November 27 (QNA) - An official source in the government has denounced hideous terrorist crimes occurred in several areas in Indian commerical capital Mumbai and resulted in the killing many citizens and injuring hundreds others. Speaking to Yemen News Agency (Saba), the source stated that these acts are inhuman and come in the context of terrorist acts occurred in many world countries perpetrated by groups, which do not care the sanctity of human life and respect the teachings of the divine and human values which reject violence, terrorism and killing of innocent . The source affirmed Yemen''s constant attitude in fighting terrorism and expressed deep condolences of Yemen''s leadership, government and people to government and people of India and families of victims as well, renewing call for more security coordination and cooperation for facing evil forces and terrorists across the world. "

Here's a good one,
http://whirledview.typepad.com/whirledv ... oster.html
Read the comments, too.
amdavadi
BRFite
Posts: 1489
Joined: 16 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by amdavadi »

Only lalit modi wants Indian cricket team to goto India. He must be out of his mind, if he think Indian player want to be in pakistan when GOI is in middle of cold start.
jash_p
BRFite
Posts: 396
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 05:56

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by jash_p »

What reaction you wants DDM ?

No reaction from PCB



Monday, December 01, 2008
KARACHI: Pakistan Cricket Board’s (PCB) chief Ijaz Butt on Sunday refused to react to reports that India has decided to cancel its tour of Pakistan scheduled for January-February next year.
Last edited by jash_p on 01 Dec 2008 07:14, edited 2 times in total.
kobe
BRFite
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Nov 2008 14:26
Location: Tang Bohu' Village, Suzhou

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by kobe »

Shreeman wrote:Has anyone kept track of reactions from the arabian/momin countries? The eyeranians seem to talk of "unjust policies".
do we care?
jash_p
BRFite
Posts: 396
Joined: 03 Feb 2008 05:56

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by jash_p »

They are happy in their heart and may be throwing parties as their jehadi brothers just killed kaffirs, though they will condem it officially.


Shreeman wrote:
Has anyone kept track of reactions from the arabian/momin countries? The eyeranians seem to talk of "unjust policies".


do we care?
Last edited by jash_p on 01 Dec 2008 07:16, edited 1 time in total.
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8423
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by disha »

Arjun wrote:
Great article as always by Rajeev Srinivasan.

I particularly liked this line: "There is an implicit contract between the rulers and the ruled: You pay the taxes, obey the rules, and we ensure that your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are unhindered."

Its' time we make clear to the government - you honour your side of the contract and we'll honour ours.
In my opinion, that is a very bleak and stupid assessment by Rajeev Srinivasan. Yes, we are bleeding but calling that we are on verge of collapse is going too far, way too far. There are several things wrong with current situation, but there are several things right too. Rajeev needs to go back and read up history in each decade of 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Each decade brought a challenge. So will this decade and the next. Each generation had a challenge, has a challenge and will have a challenge.

Also I am not in favor of Rajeev calling for a "civil disobedience" to not pay his taxes. The very salaries of the NSG come from taxes. They will be the one that will suffer the most. And then the aam admi. India has a democracy, and Rajeev has his options. If he wants to take up a cause, he can instead of doing just R&Dh [Rona & Dhona].

Here are the positives I take from this attack, note that I for one do not believe this will be the last, but here are the +ves -

1. The elites have been targetted costing the amananiya mantri his chair. Better than the mind numbing carnage of the mango man [aam admi]
2. Government got caught in its own shadow-boxing petard. The trojan of Malegaon has bitten the backsides of the current dispensation. Big time.
3. No Government will continue for long without a proper anti-terror response ...

We might be slow learners, but we are learning well. Ours is still a young country and it is amazing how rich and powerful it has grown defying all naysayers. It will continue to amaze.
Last edited by disha on 01 Dec 2008 07:13, edited 1 time in total.
John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by John Snow »

Rahul M >> effectively you are saying India cant pluck a hair out of TSPakis!

Remember all our COAS have said there is enough room fro conventional war with TSP. Otherwise its better to stop spending on T-90 and all that crap.

Here on BRF we were talking about war in Tibet... what a joke we cant even react to an all out war by TSP.

Not even a symbolic attack or Sonic boom over Islamabad!

We have a mental GUBO all the time haunting us, like in panchatantra story even if we have a tiger skin on we will still bray....

Once the involvement of TSP Navy in this war
the involvement of ISI in Brigadier death
The involvement of TSP in Akshardam
The involvement of TSP in Parlaiment attack
.....

goe on and on

and yet we are still debating is war a solution?

what are our redlines if any or we dont have any?

But as rahul says the redline of TSP 1.5 nuke is redline that India cant cross
Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Dhiman »

Rahul M wrote:
A_Gupta wrote:Is there anyway India can strike targets in FATA or NWFP that would be also those that the US might want to strike? Point being that then they can hardly object.
any call for attacking pak w/o taking out the nukes first is inviting suicide.

nukes first, then we can do anything we please with the pakis, our conventional superiority allows it.
If Pakistan was so scared of Indian response they would have NEVER trained these operatives to carry out terror attacks in India.

It is this mentality that leads to such terror acts. Because rest assured, the terror planners in Pakistan are convinced that no matter what they do, we won't respond and hence their families, goats, and cowshed will remain safe.

Respond and test their restraint like they have been testing ours. And if they move a muscle, respond exponentially until they get the point.
Last edited by Dhiman on 01 Dec 2008 07:12, edited 2 times in total.
disha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 8423
Joined: 03 Dec 2006 04:17
Location: gaganaviharin

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by disha »

jash_p wrote:They are happy in their heart and may be throughing parties as their jehadi brothers just killed kaffirs, though they will condem it officially.
Shreeman wrote:
Has anyone kept track of reactions from the arabian/momin countries? The eyeranians seem to talk of "unjust policies".
do we care?
Their reaction may be namby-pamby, but they do realize that chickens do come home to roost. For eg. Dubai wants to be the next gateway to Asia and they will try to project a cosmopolitan image. Towards that extent, several of Dawoods links have been cleared out of Dubai [and that is why Dawood is in Karachi and not in Dubai]. They will *not* be inimical to him, but a distant hello and goodbye suffices. Same with terrorism.
Last edited by disha on 01 Dec 2008 07:17, edited 1 time in total.
shyam
BRFite
Posts: 1453
Joined: 29 Jul 2003 11:31

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by shyam »

John Snow wrote:folks remember "The writing on the wall'?
Year he suggested is 2017
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by ramana »

So what happened to those two Americans in Taj hotel? have they been identified?
vijayk
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9419
Joined: 22 Jun 1999 11:31

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by vijayk »

I am very upset by the coverage of NDTV led by Burka Dutt, CNN-IBM. Burka Dutt as noted by some members even pointed to security forces giving away the information.One idea is interested members can run ads in major national dailies calling out/naming out some of the treachrous behavior of these low life scums and channels. Is this a possible and plausible idea?
bart
BRFite
Posts: 712
Joined: 04 Jan 2008 21:33

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by bart »

akl wrote:
Rahul M wrote: any call for attacking pak w/o taking out the nukes first is inviting suicide.

nukes first, then we can do anything we please with the pakis, our conventional superiority allows it.
If Pakistan was so scared of Indian response they would have NEVER trained these operatives to carry out terror attacks in India.

It is this mentality that leads to such terror acts. Because rest assured, the terror planners in Pakistan are convinced that no matter what they do, we won't respond and hence their families, goats, and cowshed will remain safe.

Respond and test their restraint like they have been testing ours. And if they move a muscle, respond exponentially until they get the point.

Dont underestimate the stupidity of the Pakistanis. As more and more of the services and ISI come under religious influences, rationalism takes a hit. There is still some brilliance from there but its mostly tactical brilliance, strategically they are always digging a hole for themselves.
SureshP
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 10 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by SureshP »

Crime against humanity, Islam: Kuwait’s Deputy PM

KUWAIT, Nov 29, (KUNA): Kuwait’s Deputy Prime Minister and Foreign Minister Sheikh Dr Mohammad Sabah Al-Salem Al-Sabah condemned Friday the attacks in the Indian commercial city, Mumbai, and said they were “crimes against humanity and Islam.” “If those (who carried out the attacks) claim they did what they do in the name of Islam then Islam is better without them,” Sheikh Mohammad told reporters after receiving Kuwaitis who returned home after they were released from a hostage-taking ordeal in a hotel in Mumbai.

“We as Muslims strongly condemn this act and we have expressed our sympathies to the Indian authorities, and I hope the international community affirms, through this incident, the necessity of fighting terrorism,” underlined Sheikh Mohammad. The attacks in Mumbai killed almost 195 people and injured over 300 others.

Meanwhile, His Highness the Prime Minister Sheikh Nasser Al-Mohammad Al-Ahmad Al-Sabah sent a cable of appreciation to Indian counterpart Dr Manmohan Singh, thanking him for efforts exerted by Indian authorities in ensuring the safety of Kuwaiti citizens there. In the cable, Sheikh Nasser thanked the Indian government’s endeavors in ensuring the well-being of Kuwaitis, who were trapped in one of the hotels that were attacked by terrorists.

Sheikh Nasser, who described the attacks as “criminal”, offered his deepest sympathies and condolences to the Prime Minister and the friendly people of India for their losses and a wished speedy recovery for the injured. He also reiterated Kuwait’s condemnation of terrorism in all its forms and for whatever reason.

In another development Kuwait’s Salafist Group has denounced the Mumbai terrorist attack which affected hundreds of innocent citizens, while foreigners were also used as shields for issues that did not concern them, reports Arrouia daily. A press statement released by the group stressed that these armed militants wrecked mayhem on innocent people due to their wrong beliefs and unacceptable ideologies. The Mumbai incident is an example of unwarranted extremist attacks against humanity in their bid to pull down the system at all cost, the statement added. “We condemn this act in totality while calling on the concerned authority to take decisive steps in waging a war against extremism. There is the need to monitor suspicious communications, since it is possible to use the websites to spread such undesirable ideologies to Kuwait,” the statement suggested.
http://www.arabtimesonline.com/kuwaitne ... 467&ccid=9

UAE Cabinet denounces Mumbai attacks

Nov 30, 2008 - 02:12 -

WAM Abu Dhabi, 30th Nov. 2008 (WAM) -- The UAE Federal Cabinet today strongly denounced the brutal crime committed by terrorists in Indian city of Mumbai.

Hundreds of innocent victims were killed and hundreds were injured while several properties in India's commercial capital were damaged and devastated.

In a statement issued following a meeting presided over by Vice President and Prime Minister and Ruler of Dubai H.H. Sheikh Mohammed bin Rashid Al Maktoum at the Presidential Palace today, the Cabinet renewed the UAE's complete solidarity with the friendly government and people of India and standing beside it in its effort to confront this terrorist crime.

''Combating terrorism need solidarity and cooperation of all so as to uproot this epidemic and protect humanity from its crimes,'' the cabinet affirmed.

The Cabinet offered heartfelt condolences to the government of India and families of the victims, and wished those wounded speedy recovery.
http://www.wam.org.ae/servlet/Satellite ... N-FullNews
Saudi Arabia conveys condolences


Special Correspondent
NEW DELHI: Saudi Arabia has expressed condolences over the loss of lives in the terrorist attacks in Mumbai.

While strongly condemning these terrorist acts, a statement issued by the Royal Saudi Embassy here on Sunday said that the Saudi government was grateful to India for its efforts and assistance in evacuating their (Saudi) nationals from places targeted by the terrorists in Mumbai.


It also offered logistic support to India.

The terror attacks also figured in a big way at the South Asian Women’s Day function here on Sunday where the participants reiterated their commitment to stand together during this critical hour of unimaginable destruction.

Representatives from over 40 women’s groups and civil society organisations participated in the function.
http://www.hindu.com/2008/12/01/stories ... 721100.htm
Last edited by SureshP on 01 Dec 2008 07:25, edited 1 time in total.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by ramana »

Is there a roll of honor for those killed by the terrorists?
Arjun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4283
Joined: 21 Oct 2008 01:52

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Arjun »

disha wrote:
Arjun wrote: Great article as always by Rajeev Srinivasan.

I particularly liked this line: "There is an implicit contract between the rulers and the ruled: You pay the taxes, obey the rules, and we ensure that your life, liberty and pursuit of happiness are unhindered."

Its' time we make clear to the government - you honour your side of the contract and we'll honour ours.
In my opinion, that is a very bleak and stupid assessment by Rajeev Srinivasan. Yes, we are bleeding but calling that we are on verge of collapse is going too far, way too far. There are several things wrong with current situation, but there are several things right too. Rajeev needs to go back and read up history in each decade of 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s and 90s. Each decade brought a challenge. So will this decade and the next. Each generation had a challenge, has a challenge and will have a challenge.

Also I am not in favor of Rajeev calling for a "civil disobedience" to not pay his taxes. The very salaries of the NSG come from taxes. They will be the one that will suffer the most. And then the aam admi. India has a democracy, and Rajeev has his options. If he wants to take up a cause, he can instead of doing just R&Dh [Rona & Dhona].

Here are the positives I take from this attack, note that I for one do not believe this will be the last, but here are the +ves -

1. The elites have been targetted costing the amananiya mantri his chair. Better than the mind numbing carnage of the mango man [aam admi]
2. Government got caught in its own shadow-boxing petard. The trojan of Malegaon has bitten the backsides of the current dispensation. Big time.
3. No Government will continue for long without a proper anti-terror response ...

We might be slow learners, but we are learning well. Ours is still a young country and it is amazing how rich and powerful it has grown defying all naysayers. It will continue to amaze.
Disha, I agree with you that he is outlining the worst-case scenario - at the same time, it is very clear that it was written with a purpose and it succeeds in achieving that purpose. There is nothing stupid at all about this article.

As for the taxes part - neither he nor I are calling for any kind of civil dispobedience on taxes NOW. But it is definitely the need of the hour to make extremely clear to our political parties the nature of the implicit contract that exists between the ruler and the ruled. The biggest failing of our political class is that they have zero appreciation for this sense of accountability - which needs to be made explicitly clear to all political parties. Anybody who fails to see this is being blind.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Rahul M »

kobe wrote:
Rahul M wrote: any call for attacking pak w/o taking out the nukes first is inviting suicide.

nukes first, then we can do anything we please with the pakis, our conventional superiority allows it.
absolutely wrong!! this kind of thinking has allowed pakistan to nuclear blackmail india and continue the low-intensity conflict.

india should bomb key targets in pakistan, if they raise the stakes with nuclear weapons, then it becomes everyone's problem, and will force USA to de-nuclearise the pigs even faster.

after xerox-khan's exploits, USA has realized that pakistan must be de-fanged and things are slowly moving in that direction. even china has started seeing pakistan as a liability
(current refusal to give them bheekh)
:roll:
Oh dear !

do you realise what you are asking ?
risk the lives of millions of Indians on the 'belief' that US and PRC would intervene on our behalf if war broke out ! :evil:

and "if they raise the stakes with nuclear weapons," what would they do, call up white house and say "hi from sargodha, we are just about to launch a nuke armed missile at delhi, thought you would like to know".

It is India's problem and we have to sort it out.
attacking camps inside pakistan without de-nuking is like trying to enter a psychos home to arrest his hooligan son without taking care of psycho's shotgun first.
A recipe for disaster in short.

de-nuke pakistan as the first step.
that is what we have to do (unless pakistan disintegrates first). the rest will follow.
SureshP
BRFite
Posts: 256
Joined: 10 Apr 2002 11:31

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by SureshP »

It is India's problem and we have to sort it out.
attacking camps inside pakistan without de-nuking is like trying to enter a psychos home to arrest his hooligan son without taking care of psycho's shotgun first.
A recipe for disaster in short.
A pcycho on PCP
Dhiman
BRFite
Posts: 527
Joined: 29 Nov 2008 13:56

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Dhiman »

bart wrote: Dont underestimate the stupidity of the Pakistanis. As more and more of the services and ISI come under religious influences, rationalism takes a hit. There is still some brilliance from there but its mostly tactical brilliance, strategically they are always digging a hole for themselves.
An enemy is an enemy and needs to be taken care of irrespective of whether that enemy is sane or insane. One can either sit paralyzed in their rooms chalking out "what-if" scenarios and hope that things will improve or one can respond. Unfortunately this is the time to respond and that is the only right thing to do as any self-respecting country would do when faced with such an attack.

What an appropriate response will be can be debated, but a response is necessary. No response means we as a nation are cowards.
Last edited by Dhiman on 01 Dec 2008 07:33, edited 1 time in total.
Nayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2552
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 03:48
Location: Vote for Savita Bhabhi as the next BRF admin.

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Nayak »

Mumbai police bought luxury cars not new weapons

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Mumb ... 776792.cms

30 Nov 2008, 0402 hrs IST, Prafulla Marpakwar, TNN
Print Email Discuss Share Save Comment Text:
MUMBAI: A multi-agency operation may have managed to make Mumbai terror-free but the last few days have exposed the incapability of Mumbai Police to tackle terrorism.
Experts feel it would be unfair to blame that entirely on the cop on the street, but we should look at what the government has done to equip the force to take on terrorists.

The government has promised to make Mumbai a safer place every time the city has faced terror. Senior ministers have repeatedly stressed that the force would be modernised and equipped with machines that would allow it to return terrorists' firepower. But most of those promises have remained on paper, even a cursory glance at the last few years' budgetary provisions reveal.
Records show that the government has spent Rs 940 crore on "modernisation'' in the last eight years. But most of the money has been used for construction of new police stations, administrative buildings and buying luxury sedans for senior IPS officers. "We had adequate funds but never upgraded our firepower to tackle terror attacks. That was why we were helpless when terrorists attacked Mumbai on Wednesday,'' a senior IPS officer said, adding that 60% of the Rs 940 crore was spent on buildings and cars and very little on improving mobility or upgrading weapons and ammunition.

Officials say the home department's focus is on procuring luxury vehicles and accessories for top officers. Maharashtra has 22 additional DGPs and four DGPs. Every one has a luxury sedan. IGPs and SPs too have modern cars at their disposal and at least 20 such cars are at the disposal of the deputy CM himself. Some of them are used by him, the remaining are used by his staff. "Chinese-made beacons worth about Rs 30,000 had been fitted on many of these vehicles but could not be replaced after they stopped working as there was no warranty,'' an official added. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Officials expected the home department to draft a plan to buy bullet-proof cars for officers in sensitive posts, replace age-old weapons and procure more bullet-proof jackets for personnel. But none of that has happened. "We have no ammunition for training State Reserve Police Force officials and so most SRPF constables have absolutely no experience of using rifles. They use it when they are summoned to tackle a mob or to control riots,'' the IPS officer said.

A programme was drafted for getting AK-47s and replacing obsolete weapons two years ago but it was not followed up seriously. Maharashtra, as a result, is the only state in India where most cops embark on sensitive operations with old weapons.

Ditto for bullet-proof jackets; cops here would like to sample the scientifically designed Koeffler jackets that can protect the body from any type of bullet and are used by the NSG and other commando forces the world over. But it is another article on a long wish-list.
Subhanallah!!!

Can we stop the cr@p about the Mumbai pandoos ? Most of them are trained to rain their lathis on beehaaris and collect hafta from the roadside vendors.
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Rahul M »

akl wrote:If Pakistan was so scared of Indian response they would have NEVER trained these operatives to carry out terror attacks in India.

It is this mentality that leads to such terror acts. Because rest assured, the terror planners in Pakistan are convinced that no matter what they do, we won't respond and hence their families, goats, and cowshed will remain safe.

Respond and test their restraint like they have been testing ours. And if they move a muscle, respond exponentially until they get the point.
that is due to the assurance of the nuclear umbrella, not that of conventional arms.
remove it and pak is ours to bring to its knees.

the conventional disparity b/w Indian and pak is HUGE at the moment.
more so than 1971 which is when pak went towards nuclear arms because they realised they couldn't hope to match India in conventional arms.

think a bit, why didn't PAF join the war during kargil ?
IAF had and the stakes were quite high for the pakis with the entire NLI involved in kargil.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by ramana »

This terrorist attack has nothing to do with Kashmir, Al Qaeda, Gujarat, Babri Masjid or what not. It is a commando action from TSP plain and simple with irregular troops. Kashmir etc has nothing to do with it. If anyone brings those extraneous factors they are justifying the use of terrorist attacks. This has to be pointed out very forcefully and repeatedly. This applies to locals and outsiders.
SwamyG
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16271
Joined: 11 Apr 2007 09:22

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by SwamyG »

Rahul M wrote: de-nuke pakistan as the first step.
So how is that done?
Mathew G
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 67
Joined: 14 Sep 2008 04:36

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Mathew G »

US, India face Pak blackmail on terror
  • Well, if they withdraw the troops, the US must simply take over that region. The TSP will be caught like a deer between headlights. And would have to engage the US
  • India must conduct covert operations in Karachi ; get the Mossad’s help if need be. Eliminate Dawood
  • Instead of being reactive to threats, India needs to be proactive. Take the war to LeT. Boost intel on LeT. Find where they reside in Pak thru covert ops. Eliminate them one by one.
  • Keep the TSP army busy by engaging in a ‘fake’ war over Kashmir. Drain their resources on one side, while we recommend the US to drain TSP on the other side.
  • The above war will also be an emotional victory on LeT’. If they hit the heart of India, it will show the consequence of that is much worse. India will hit the heart of their “grievance” vis-à-vis Kashmir.
Nayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2552
Joined: 11 Jun 2006 03:48
Location: Vote for Savita Bhabhi as the next BRF admin.

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Nayak »

Awesome of UnniKrishnan Sr. to kick the Kerala CM in the nuts.

Srinivasan jain from NDTV yesterday b!tch slapped Veerappa Moily on the incompetence of Shivraj 'nutless' Patil and the 'disaster tourism' done by Vilasrao Deshmukh.

Moily was speechless and had to accept that it was not exactly bright of Deshmukh to disrespect the victims by rolling around with his son and RG Varma

--changed the name--
Last edited by Nayak on 01 Dec 2008 08:12, edited 1 time in total.
Guddu
BRFite
Posts: 1059
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by Guddu »

I have lurked for long...so my first post in these times of crisis. I think the most practical way forward is to beat Pak economically.
1. Invest heavily in weapons, this will trigger an arms race. Ultimately they will go broke(r)...since they are already broke. We can afford a much larger % of GDP on weapons. Already they spend nothing on educ, health or anything worthwhile. This is essentially how the US beat USSR.
2. Cut the water flows to Pak. When they complain open it a little bit...then repeat procedure. Over a year's time this will cut their food supplies...and wreak havoc in their economy.
3. Work on breaking up Pak. Support Balochi and other movements. As the state becomes smaller...it becomes weaker. Keep them busy fighting within themselves and suppressing the breakaway provinces. Immediately provide a billion $ in aid to balochistan for weapons purchases. Initiate other proxy wars with large amounts of $$.
4. I dont think amassing troops is useful at the LOC, unless it is for real.
5. Hang this Afzal guy immediately....it will send a message.
6. Open up Kashmir for Hindus to buy property. This will require a parliamentary action.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60273
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by ramana »

SwamyG wrote:
Rahul M wrote: de-nuke pakistan as the first step.
So how is that done?
By a houbara hunt! A houbara (favorite of impotent Arabs) hides in the tall grass and has to be forced to make its presence felt to show where it is. And only a war will make them show it.

Seriously if they face certain prospect of defeat they will have coup which force the US hand to ensure jihadis don't have nukes.
faraz
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 63
Joined: 04 Sep 2008 04:29

Re: Terror Attacks in Mumbai - III

Post by faraz »

Did Zaid 'Zhutan' Hamid win the Pakistan Laughter Challenger this year ?

Saw his views on Mumbai Terror Attack. Either he is a Moron or he was joking.
Locked