Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Dec 2009 15:21

The cancellation of the MP RFP might have somethingto do with a Vayu report that all the IL-38SDs have arrived from Russia after their upgrade and that the IN is using its large number of Dorniers to suffice.In fact,as many might have noted,I've been advocating for ages that we acquire amphibians and there is an ingenious design from Oz adding an under fuselage floatation device to turn the DO-228 into an amphibian capable of operating from land or sea.Since we are still making the DO-228,this would be a great acquisition.Secondly,as far as Nimrod is concerned,there was a crash of one of them killing the entire crew.The maintenance costs of Nimrod are questionable though as has been pointed out,the aircraft has excellent capability.However,I would prefer "more of the same" a couple of extra TU-142s and another 5-7 IL-38SDs to make up number,easy to operate ,until the P-8Is arrive and are put through their paces,so that we can then see what the future holds.I think that extra DO-228s might be in the offing as a cost-effectibve stop-gap measure along with extra Heron UAVs.

Regarding the British carrier offer,costs will decide.It may be that we are as mentioned more interested in the etchnology and systems aboard the carrier for a future larger carrier built at home and cheaper too.I would prefer the latter choice,as it would give the Cochin shipyard continuity in building large flat tops and future large amphibious vessels too,bring in better efficiency and lower costs per unit.If IAC-1 aqrrives near its planned schedule of induction,it would be a great achievement and demand further orders.

Tanaji · Post by **Tanaji** » 16 Dec 2009 15:22

Isnt there a lawsuit by the families of the personnel killed in the recent Nimrod crash against the makers alleging a design fault?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 16 Dec 2009 21:02

asbchakri wrote:
krishnan wrote:What makes you people think india would buy anything that is decommissioned around the world?
INS JALASHW for starters

And lots of others recommissioned in the IN

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 16 Dec 2009 21:12

johnny_m wrote:India cancels maritime patrol request for proposals
By Siva Govindasamy

India has cancelled a request for proposals for six medium-range maritime patrol aircraft that it planned to operate in tandem with eight Boeing P-8Is it bought earlier in 2009.

"The defence ministry and the navy had asked for the proposals, but they withdrew the tender a few months ago," says an industry source close to the ministry. "There is no indication of when a fresh tender will be issued, although it appears as though this procurement has gone down in the navy's list of priorities."

New Delhi had been assessing medium-range aircraft to replace the Indian navy's 12 Britten-Norman Islanders, which the service hopes to begin retiring from around 2013. It had planned to either transfer the Islanders to the Indian coastguard, or convert them for use as trainers. Myanmar, which sourced two Islanders from India for its coastguard several years ago, could also be a recipient, say industry sources.

Jets and turboprops had been assessed for the requirement. Sources say that Brazil's Embraer, which already has a maritime patrol version of its EMB-145 and is helping to modify the same type for an indigenous Indian air force airborne early warning and control requirement, was a possible contender.

Boeing had offered a modified version of the P-8I, while Israel's Elta Systems has been pushing a maritime patrol variant of the Dassault Falcon 900 business jet. Northrop Grumman was also hoping to compete with its E-2D, while other turboprop alternatives were maritime patrol variants of the ATR 72 and the EADS Casa C-295.

India is the first export customer for Boeing's P-8, having selected the type to replace its navy Tupolev Tu-142 turboprops. The service, which has often been neglected in favour of the air force and army, has received a boost in recent years as the country's politicians seek to establish their maritime capabilities.

Observers say the nation needs to augment its maritime patrol capabilities due to growing tensions with neighbours such as Pakistan and Sri Lanka, the growing influence of China in the Indian Ocean, and the rise of piracy in the Arabian Sea.

Earlier in December, India issued a request for information for new naval fighters that will be capable of operating on two indigenous aircraft carriers projected to be in service by the end of the next decade. Boeing, Dassault and Lockheed Martin received the RFI, according to industry sources. This did not indicate the number of aircraft required, and asked only for information on available technologies and capabilities with their respective F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter designs.

This is in addition to the induction of RSK MiG-29K carrier-borne fighters and naval variants of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, six of which were ordered earlier this year, over the next decade. It also keen to buy new anti-submarine warfare helicopters and wants to induct a range of unmanned air vehicles.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... osals.html

Are we running out of cash? The IAF MRTT bid goes now this.

Take it FWIW, mostly speculation, a conjecture, I believe it has been due to some chilling in relations. The Headley case and the Copenhagen bold stand by India. Also we do not know what happened behind the scenes in the Gorshkov negotiations. All I can say is it is definitely not cash. There is also the probability that they might rework their requirements (perhaps offset clauses etc) and submit a new one. Knowing how quickly this process works in India, do not expect anything pretty soon.

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Dec 2009 21:14

asbchakri wrote:
krishnan wrote:What makes you people think india would buy anything that is decommissioned around the world?
INS JALASHW for starters

INS Viraat ( a.k.a. Hermes) ..

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 17 Dec 2009 07:35

Take it FWIW, mostly speculation, a conjecture, I believe it has been due to some chilling in relations. The Headley case and the Copenhagen bold stand by India. Also we do not know what happened behind the scenes in the Gorshkov negotiations. All I can say is it is definitely not cash. There is also the probability that they might rework their requirements (perhaps offset clauses etc) and submit a new one. Knowing how quickly this process works in India, do not expect anything pretty soon.

Or maybe India will wait to see how well the P-8I's preform first; if they preform well enough they just might order additional aircraft. It beats having to have another competition which would take years.

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 17 Dec 2009 13:41

Stealth Warships to get Deadlier
Project 28 Corvettes : India to Tender for Composite Technology for Superstructure

The Swedish Navy Visby-class corvette, Helsingborg. Its builder, Kockums, will bid to supply composite technology for India's Project 28 corvette programme.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 17 Dec 2009 13:58

Juggi G wrote:Stealth Warships to get Deadlier

isn't it late....??

BRF says that...
Plate cutting of the first vessel in the series commenced on 12 August 2005. Commissioning of the first vessel is expected in 2010.

PROJECT 28

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 17 Dec 2009 14:11

THat would explain the delay till 2012. But nearly 400 mil per ship is steep for a corvette. But I guess the cost will come down if built in numbers.

rakall · Post by **rakall** » 17 Dec 2009 14:39

vavinash wrote:THat would explain the delay till 2012. But nearly 400 mil per ship is steep for a corvette. .

Corvettes world around are much smaller & lighter ships with dispacement around 1500tons.. IN is pushing the definition of corvettes - P28 is actually coming around that if a frigate.. and for a corvette, P28 is quite well loaded with armament..

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 17 Dec 2009 14:44

Why importing superstructures? I remember reading somewhere DRDO has indigenously developed. This was with reference to some inquiry from railways. They also told of having some fatigue management by placing sensors within the structure. I am not able to get the source now

m i missing something?

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Dec 2009 17:16

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 17 Dec 2009 17:18

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 17 Dec 2009 19:13

Thanks a lot Nayak!
Is there an article on the Arihant?

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 17 Dec 2009 21:37

Gorshkov price is settled with Russia at $2.3 billion

The price of aircraft carrier Gorshkov has been finally settled at US $2.3 billion.

Notwithstanding some bitterness, the Indian side finally agreed to pay this price after being told by the Prime Minister's Office that the high level of friendship with Russia has to be maintained and an agreement had to be worked out, preferably before Manmohan Singh left for Moscow Dec 6.

That was indeed done on the morning of Dec 4, Navy Day, with a visiting Russian delegation, according to the latest issue of India Strategic defence magazine. Defence ministry officials refused to comment on the development.

The Indian side had asked for some additional onboard equipment at least as part of the increased price, but within that price, which the Russians agreed to. Details of that were still being finalized with the Russians 10 days later in the Indian capital.

...
...
Well placed sources from Moscow told India Strategic that the Russian government asked Rosoboronexport to come down to $2.4 billion and it also submitted a letter in this regard to the Indian Navy's negotiating team.

Finally, India agreed to pay a total of $2.3 billion but with a request for some additional equipment, and the Russians agreed to that.

India has also agreed for delivery of the carrier, which the Navy urgently needs, by 2012 without any penalty.
...

srai · Post by **srai** » 18 Dec 2009 06:18

sumshyam wrote: quote="Juggi G" Stealth Warships to get Deadlier

isn't it late....??

BRF says that...
Plate cutting of the first vessel in the series commenced on 12 August 2005. Commissioning of the first vessel is expected in 2010. quote
PROJECT 28

Actually, the stealth composite superstructure only applies to the 3rd and 4th vessels. The first two are already almost complete.

From the above business standard article:

...
The first two corvettes of Project 28, which are nearing completion, have already been built with conventional steel superstructures. Subsequent corvettes, that is the third ship onwards, can have composite superstructures. The chairman and managing director of GRSE, Rear Admiral KC Sekhar, told Business Standard during a visit to GRSE in August that, “Composite materials technology can only be incorporated for the third and fourth ships of Project 28. The first corvette is already 90 per cent completed. Eighty per cent of the superstructure is ready for the second corvette.”
...

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 18 Dec 2009 06:30

Hmmm...if 90 % of superstructure is ready should the ship be inducted by 2010-11 why wait till 2012? But good to know there is progress. I hope IN orders 12 more of these for ASW ops. Paki agostas will be shitting bricks.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 Dec 2009 07:12

does anyone know why the nato FFGs never seem to have the RBU6000 type kit?

its not that the threat from soviet SSNs was low.

neither does the JMSDF collection of ASW ships...again a very focussed fleet but
no RBU6000ski...albeit some of their bigger ones uniquely have 3 large SH60 helis.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Dec 2009 08:30

sumshyam wrote:
Juggi G wrote:Stealth Warships to get Deadlier
isn't it late....??

BRF says that...
Plate cutting of the first vessel in the series commenced on 12 August 2005. Commissioning of the first vessel is expected in 2010.
PROJECT 28

this is the page people should follow. that is the old page.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ship ... ct-28.html

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 18 Dec 2009 08:44

Singha wrote:does anyone know why the nato FFGs never seem to have the RBU6000 type kit?

its not that the threat from soviet SSNs was low.

neither does the JMSDF collection of ASW ships...again a very focussed fleet but
no RBU6000ski...albeit some of their bigger ones uniquely have 3 large SH60 helis.

all JMSDF capital ships have ASROC, the latest ones have the VL ASROC. RN used the limbo anti-sub mortars into the 80's but haven't developed a newer version.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 18 Dec 2009 09:18

ASROC is similar to Klub 91RE2 though with inferior range. RBU-6000 is probably similar to LImbo ASW mortar.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 18 Dec 2009 12:46

They use 324 mm TT that have similar ranges to the RBU 6000 (~10 km). They use ASROC for extended ranges (~40 km)for which Russia/India use 533 mm TT (~20 km). Russia also had extended range shipboard ASW missiles on its destroyers.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 19 Dec 2009 03:35

Scorpene tangled in govt web

Business Standard has learnt that work on the first Scorpene has ground to a halt, and it is unlikely to be ready before 2015.
Most disquietingly, the delay is due to a contracting blunder, stemming from the Ministry of Defence’s propagation of a myth that significant parts of the submarine were being built with Indian components.
This led the defence ministry to create a special category called Mazagaon Procured Materials, or MPM. Of the total project cost of Rs 18,798 crore, Rs 2,700 crore (¤400 million) were set aside for MDL to contract directly for submarine materials. But the impression created, by giving MDL a budget for locally procuring materials and systems from multiple vendors, was false. The bulk of MPM budget, as the defence ministry knew, would go straight to a single vendor — French company Armaris, with whom India signed the Scorpene contract. This would pay for critical submarine systems, including the engine, the generators and special submarine steels.

It is not clear why the defence ministry left these crucial Scorpene systems unpriced. What is clear is that French company DCNS, which took over Armaris in 2007, is now demanding close to Rs 4,700 crore (¤700 million) for these items, almost twice of what was budgeted.

Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju told Business Standard that DCNS based its higher demand on cost inflation since the contract was signed in October 2005. The MoD asked the French government to intercede with DCNS, but Paris is unwilling to help.

Senior naval officers familiar with the negotiations said, “The inclusion of so many crucial systems in the MPM package — systems that everyone knew had to be bought from Armaris/DCNS — was a grave contracting mistake. This was done to give the impression of greater indigenisation… since these would apparently be items that MDL was procuring. But this scheme has backfired badly.”

Naval planners are struggling to deal with a situation where the induction of Scorpene submarines remains a long way off. Only after the MoD and DCNS agree on a price that production would begin in France of the engines, generators and other systems that are included in MPM category. Technicians working on Project 75 estimate that, once a price is fixed and a contract signed, it will be 33-36 months before the items are delivered to MDL and fitted on the first Scorpene. Thereafter, the painstaking process of outfitting the rest of the vessel, fitting weapons and sensors and carrying out lengthy trials would begin before handing over the submarine to the Navy.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 19 Dec 2009 05:34

Scrap the scorpene and go with more akulas err ATV's

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 19 Dec 2009 06:03

Nothing is going right for IN's underwater arm as of now. The second line of sub's is no where in sight, even if the Navy selects the sub today it will take another 6-7 years (3 for approval, price negotiations, kickback allegation's and all d drama and 3 for actual sub construction period testing and to get commissioned).
There was news about the Arihant being a Technology demonstrator. Kilo's under refit's and now scorpion delayed till 2015.
The only good news is about Akula joining the navy next year. The First scorpion were supposed to join the navy by 2012 and each one in every next year. so by 2015 we could have got almost 4 brand new subs. The Navy had a plan to raise the number of sub's in inventory to 24 by 2020. Now realistically that number if we achieve by 2030 it will be better.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 19 Dec 2009 06:47

Bad News
At this rate IN will have only 5-6 subs by 2020 ( u-209 and some old Kilos need to be phased out )

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 19 Dec 2009 07:09

Where is the indeginously built submarine hain ji? Or is india waiting to jump straight to 4th gen subs like it is doing with the LCA? The birth pangs are horrible.

The scorpene should have been the last submarine to be licence produced in India, but apparantly we will have to wait for its sequel to be that.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Dec 2009 07:19

Bad project management - as usual.

What else is new?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 19 Dec 2009 08:47

Sea Power has its Significance
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India - Opinions

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Dec 2009 09:58

I read somewhere there is a paltry legal cell in defmin that are tasked to vet these multi billion$$ contracts. obviously its beyond their capability and resources.

we need to bring in the best private law firms in India with experience in international law and arbitration. thats the only way out.

there are scores of the A1++ pvt lawyers in delhi and mumbai who could
do far better than the pathetic job currently being done.

negi · Post by **negi** » 19 Dec 2009 10:13

Well to be honest it seems to me this ToT business is turning out to be a hogwash with cunning OEMs exploiting the loopholes in the contract drafted by the thumb twiddling BABUs ; in the interest of public exchequer and the end user I would suggest this ToT 'nautanki' should be stopped and we should buy the platform as is from OEM (of course customized as per end user's reqs) the initial costs would be higher but at least darn thing will be delivered in time and within known budgetary allocation .

We have done far better with indigenous programmes like Arjun,LCA,Dhruv and even Rajendra when compared to exploiting the so called ToT for HDW's U-209s and Bofors 155mm arty and now I don't know if as on date we can build a Al-31fp on our own.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Dec 2009 15:49

The Scorpene deal certainly has a "sting" in its trail...It is simply scandalous as to how the deal was negotiated and signed on by the MOD.A serious enquiry should be made as to who was responsible for this collossal blunder and cut one's losses if the French play too hard to get.The fault though clearly lies with us and we are getting shafted in style.

The only sub acquisition programme that seems to be working reasonably well is that of the Akula-2 lease.It had a hiccup though,but fromall available reports,should arrive early next year,with more of the same to follow.The chief priority now is for us to acquire (easier from Russia) a few Brahmos equipped AIP subs built abroad,with a second squadron built at home.With recent Russian sub exort orders,Russian yards will be vey busy building subs for Vietnam,Venezuela and other smaller nations and we might have to acquire a couple more Akulas in the Russian navy as a stop gap solution.

One other option is to check out the German U-214 built for Greece,rejected by Greece because of alleged stablity concerns when surfaced.Tne Germans are very keen to get us to buy German subs once again after HDW was cleared in that ancient "scandal".U-214s are in servcie or on order for several countries and are a very successful design.The Germans have also cancelled their earlier deal with Pak to build the same ,doing us a favour,whuch can be rewarded by buying U-214s to ultimately repalce all U-209s.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 20 Dec 2009 12:42

Does anybody get fired for stuff like this? I mean, a matter of pretty high importance regarding national security and somebody makes blunders like this? It is not even something that can be rectified in weeks or months but years!

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 20 Dec 2009 15:59

@ Philip

Unfortunately, Amur is nowhere near to be produced for export. Lead ship of Lada class is still on trials. Two main problems plague her - main electric engine produces only 2 MW instead of projected 4 MW, due to faulty electric circuitry and alternators (switces and circuit's kick-out and burn regularly); data obtained from Lira sonar suit does not process very well in Lithium CMS, software glitches and output/input mismatches.
Meanwhile, production of 2nd and 3rd hull are put on stand-by.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 Dec 2009 16:05

Looking at the perpetual delay that Scorpene program is going through and the 2nd line of submarine still a long way off , a more practical approach to resolve the issue of shrinking submarine fleet in shortest possible time is to go for more 636 submarine on a priority basis.

Giving it a national security priority a deal should be made with Russian yard to deliver atleast 5 ~ 6 636M ( the latest avtar of 636 ) by 2015 - 16 period equipped with Klub missile .

Considering 636 is considered as one of the most capable conventional submarine in the world even by NATO a customised 636IN submarine with Indian Sonar , ESM ,Weapons and Countermeasure should add the lethal sting in a time bound manner.

While the Scorpene indigenous drama and 2nd line submarine 300 tele episode can take its own sweet time to complete , atleast the undersea fleet will not feel the pinch and operational security is not compromised in the next decade.

maz · Post by **maz** » 20 Dec 2009 22:04

Pictures from 2009 Op Demo at Vizag

I am uploading pictures from Op Demo at Vizag. Please visit the gallery at

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Gall ... Demo+2009/

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 21 Dec 2009 07:52

karan_mc wrote:ok i don't have scanner ,but i have taken a Picture of the Article of Vayu and posted down below

Thanks Karan, May Allah bless you with 72 PYTs. Well is there a article about ATV in this issue. If yes can you repeat the process for that also. Will recommand to Allah to increase your quota of PYTs

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 21 Dec 2009 08:15

Very tempting offer

here it is ,hope you can bend your neck for it

srai · Post by **srai** » 21 Dec 2009 08:46

narmad wrote:Scorpene tangled in govt web

Business Standard has learnt that work on the first Scorpene has ground to a halt, and it is unlikely to be ready before 2015.
...

So it looks like IN will have its 6 Scorpene SSKs between 2015-2020 (if no further delays occur).

I don't understand why the IN and MoD haven't started the RFP for the second submarine line yet? Given that the Indian bureaucracy takes at least around 5 years for a selection process, award contract, and price negotiation to happen (before actual building), the process should be given much more of a priority. At least get the RFPs out and sent to vendors. And in order to avoid delays in the second P75A contract, the foreign shipyard should built the first 3 submarines while India builds the other 3 subs. Plus, when considering that it take at least 4-6 years for the first submarine to be inducted (from deal finalization and building of sub starts), all six P75As would more likely be in the IN fleet between 2020-2025 time frame.

One option for IN to make up for shortfall is to look at 10-year leasing of 1-2 more Akula SSNs from Russia. The priority for the indigenous nuclear submarine program for the next decade is on building SSBNs (aka 3-5 ATVs) as a credible deterrent force. This means IN will still need to rely on leased Russian SSNs for the next 15 years before an indigenous SSN design is available.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 21 Dec 2009 09:12

karan_mc wrote:Very tempting offer here it is ,hope you can bend your neck for it

Thanks Karan. I will do Sirasasanam if it is necessary to read it and yes i have made the required arrangament for extra PYTs.
/end of OT