Terrorist Islamic Republic of Pakistan (TSP), Feb. 26, 2010

[Patni]

Difficult to resume composite dialogue with Pak: Rao

Posted: Tuesday , Mar 16, 2010 at 0922 hrs
Washington
Voicing concern over Pakistan's inaction against perpetrators of the Mumbai attacks, including Hafiz Saeed, India on Tuesday warned that its restraint should not be confused with weakness and said it is "very, very difficult" to resume composite dialogue at present.

"... please realise that there are groups in Pakistan that continue to follow an agenda of violence, of hatred," Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao said at the Woodrow Wilson Centre in response to a question from a Lahore-based Pakistani national who asked why India was refusing to restart the composite dialogue with Pakistan which itself was a victim of terrorism.

"I did not want to bring the name of Hafiz Saeed and Jamaat-ud-Dawah and the LeT ... we feel (they) continue to roam, to speak, to be allowed unhindered access to media, to channels to communicate that agenda (of violence).. that effects us, our people are concerned about it," Rao said.


The general feeling in India right now is: "We have suffered too much for too long," she said.

"It is very, very difficult to be convinced in such a situation that we should set aside these concerns and just move on. And that is why, I said when you talk of resuming composite dialogue (it) becomes very, very difficult to do that in the current situation," Rao said.

At the same time, she said the door for talks with Pakistan had never been shut. India has always condemned terrorist attack inside Pakistan," Rao, who is in the US on a six-day visit, said. "We have never in any way condoned that. We condemn it whole heartedly."

Earlier in her address also, she ruled out resumption of composite dialogue with Pakistan till Islamabad guarantees that terrorism can be controlled by its authorities.

"Today, Pakistan claims that it is in no position to give us such a guarantee that terrorism can be controlled by its authorities. In such a situation, the people of India who are already bitterly affected by the series of terrorist attacks directed against them, can hardly be expected to support the resumption of a full-blown Composite Dialogue with Pakistan," Rao said.

She asserted that despite the brazen and malignant nature of the threats India face, New Delhi has made several genuine efforts to restore trust and confidence.

"Aggressive pronouncements by persons identified by the world as terrorists continue to be made openly against India. Distinctions made between the various terrorist outfits are now meaningless, since they are now in effect fused both operationally and ideologically," she said.

"We have consistently emphasised the need for governments concerned to act decisively to dismantle the infrastructure of terrorism and to effectively deal with groups that perpetrate it."

However, Rao said, "our restraint should not be confused with weakness or unwillingness to act against those that seek to harm our people, create insecurity and hamper our developmental goals." { Hard for any logical sane person for not to be confused! }

[SSridhar]

Pakistani Senate Panel says 'NO' to Indian Channels

But, Cable Operators seem to say 'NO' to the 'NO'.

The Senate Standing Committee on Information and Broadcasting on Monday asked cable operators not to show Indian TV channels and dramas.

Committee member Senator Tariq Azeem said that he had twice adopted resolutions recommending a ban on Indian TV channels, however, the resolutions had not been implemented. The committee urged the government to take notice of the situation.

[Hari Seldon]

the same type of reasoning that states that Paki army will have increased capability because it will be free from crushing others in pakistan.

trust you to get the reasoning bit

Ouch!

On a more serious note, Raja Ram garu, thank you for good points there and the well-*reasoned* counterpoints only. Looking fwd to more of your thoughts. Kindly post more often. Jai ho.

[Rahul M]

Rahul M,
Pakis can never have a pro-India segment in their soceity because to be pro-India....you will become Indian. That is why even among the Christians and Hindus in Pakistan...very hard to find a pro-India personality at least from my interaction with these types.
Avram.

avram, that's what I said as well. and in that case a directly anti-India faction is much more preferable to the fake moderates.

p.s. : sorry for being late to reply as the thread has moved on..... (this post is from page 29)

[shiv]

Do you think a chronically unstable Pakistan that is very capable of inflicting increasingly intensive Jihad by a thousand cuts specifically aimed at breaking up India is anyway less of a danger? Will not the entire Indian gameplan for providing for the masses be in jeopardy unless you remove this existential threat?

Pakistan is defined today with a specific purpose. It stands for destruction of India. It is for India to decide now. It has two options. One is to work for the elimination of this entity. Either actively or passively. By passive, one means doing the bear minimum of not helping pakistan in any way or form. Let them solve their surviavability problem. No need for talks or walking extra miles. There are means diplomatic, economic and cooercive military methods to achieve the active part. India can provide carrots and sticks to the 3.5 powers to do the needful.

The other option is to try and buy peace. Believe clearly that pakistan can be changed to be a normal state without anti India existential reason.

RajaRam garu.

We cannot stabilize Pakistan
We must not try to "capture" Pakistan
Buying off Pakistan is not even on the cards and talking about that only fluffs up the discussion without adding value

It is easier to stick to what we can do:

We can attack Pakistan militarily. But to what end? What can be achieved militarily that will make the cost to us from 2010 to 2020 less than the cost from 2000 to 2010?

We can keep on absorbing blows. Let me remove all fake sentiment from this. There is a very definite equal equal between us and Pakistan here. The real chances of Indian elite getting hit by Baki terror is small. Only mango man gets hit. Just like only mango Abdul gets hit in wars and RAPE/Army brass escape. Why do the elite escape? Because we can afford more precautions and protection. Despite forum protestations those of us who live in India take every precaution to keep off areas that are usually targetable.

The principle is wrong of course. We are not supposed to find solace in the fact that we can and do escape terror. Terror is technically random, but in practice there are ways of keeping at its periphery. But this is happening in India. The wealthy ensure that their areas are relatively better protected. Even if you claim a Gandhian mind you cannot increase the risk to yourself from terror as long as your social circle is elite. The risk is not zero, but it is less than mango man.

Can we accept Pakistan as it is now for the next 50 years? If the answer is "no" what is anyone going to do about it? Ultimately there is no alternative to war to bring down the Pakistan state and punish both its people and its leaders. I believe that it is fear of the US that is keeping India in check. The US holds the trump cards. I state yet again that either we must bring the US down, or be in a position to see Pakistan drown with all its friends being helpless. I don't see India as being capable of that as of now. Gnashing our teeth in frustration and absorbing blows, and perhaps some covert action define the limits of our freedom of action.

[arun]

Difficult to resume composite dialogue with Pak: Rao

The full text of Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao's speech is available here:

Address by Foreign Secretary at the Woodrow Wilson Centre on “Two Democracies - Defining the Essence of India-US Partnership”

http://www.indianembassy.org/newsite/pr ... /Mar/4.asp

[arun]

Islamic Republic of Pakistan’s love of Jihad catches up and takes a toll on sporting events there:

National games postponed due to security fears

Davis Cup tie moved on security grounds

[shravan]

Woman killed in explosion in Karachi

KARACHI: The woman has been killed in an explosion in the garbage box near Chandni Cowk area of Garden, Karachi, police confirmed SAMAA Tuesday.

Police told SAMAA that about four people have been injured including woman and three children in the explosion.

The Bomb Disposal Squad has reached the place of the explosion. SAMAA

---

GEO

The police said that unidentified men hurled explosives in Soldier Bazaar, injuring several people, including women and children.

[Hari Seldon]

Indian film 'Lahore' denied release in Pakistan

The film which looks at Indo-Pak relationships through the prism of sports, was denied a release because the censors in the neighbouring country found Pakistan's portrayal in the film negative, said the movie's producer Vivek Khatkar.

heh heh

"Our film doesn't have anything negative about Pakistan. The name of our film has been misjudged by the authorities. It is called Lahore because the climax of our film is set in Lahore, and we have no intentions of hurting anyone's sentiments," Khatkar told PTI.

Even those who are determined to hurt their own sentiments, eh?

[Hari Seldon]

Yawn.

But still, for the record...

Salahuddin caught on camera preparing suicide squads

[Pranav]

It is easier to stick to what we can do:

We can attack Pakistan militarily ... Ultimately there is no alternative to war to bring down the Pakistan state and punish both its people and its leaders.

There are a million possibilities that you are ignoring.

Why do the elite escape? Because we can afford more precautions and protection.

Saar, you may move in rarefied social circles amongst the beautiful people but we are mango abduls onlee.

[Sanku]

It is easier to stick to what we can do:

We can attack Pakistan militarily ... Ultimately there is no alternative to war to bring down the Pakistan state and punish both its people and its leaders.

There are a million possibilities that you are ignoring.

Yes and it gets tiring when some one like Shiv keeps resetting the discussion cycle to 0. I am sure he has his reasons for restarting the debate rather and pursue a debate like "Sub conventional war methods of punishing Pakistan" but for whatever reasons, that is a debate that is not found fascinating enough to discuss and whenever any one opens that line of thought the discussion is labeled "whine about why MMS is doing zero" and discussion restarted.

I guess Shiv thinks India is still at the stage where we need to internalize that we can and should think of hitting Pakistan in ways and means which are "out of the box" -- I really do wish that he wouldn't make BRF run around on these circles though -- anyway his call as a poster I guess.

[Pranav]

I guess Shiv thinks India is still at the stage where we need to internalize that we can and should think of hitting Pakistan in ways and means which are "out of the box" -- I really do wish that he wouldn't make BRF run around on these circles though -- anyway his call as a poster I guess.

So this is a piskological attempt to get people to think out of the box?

[brihaspati]

If US is the main blockage - how about this sales pitch? No need to do everything as promised is it! [note for bredators : there is no problem with copyright here]

Is it time for the West to plan for dissolving Pakistan?

How many nations of our times are based purely on a religion and recognized by other nations as independent nations? Only two – the Vatican City and Pakistan. Ironically they share in common some traits. Both have helped in the unravelling of the USSR but not of Communism – for it still survives behind the People’s Republic of China and is working towards global dominance. Both have been courted by the USA in its Cold War struggles. Neither has disappointed. Both exert influence on the global politics disproportionate to their actual size, economy, military capabilities, and the capacity to contribute in any meaningful way towards a modern, knowledge based, technological and information society. Both manage to do so by manipulating their historical images as projections into the future.

But there the similarities end. The Vatican’s leadership has made amends to its historical victims, and has shown its flexibility and readiness to change with the times. It has steadfastly refused to underwrite radicalism of the theological variety [the severe castigation of the Liberation Theology for example]. This may change in the future. But the leadership of the Vatican have proved themselves consummate statesmen in the concessions and compromises that they have made while never abandoning the fundamental objective of total global ideological domination. This is an objective that would have been a crime if not from the “one and only true message” for any other “religion” in the times when the Church ruled supreme. But now in the days of “total religious tolerance”, there is nothing wrong in having a declared agenda of “harvesting all souls”. In fact, legal and state coercive machinery can be used to guarantee protection of any proselytizer – even someone swearing by texts that recommend putting the unrepentant unbeliever to the sword.

Where Pakistan differs is not in its protection of organizations claiming the right to practice “Dawa” or spreading of the Islamist beliefs – but in its total lack of statesmanship. Unlike the Vatican, the Pakistani leadership never apologizes to the victims of its Islamists, never acknowledges that it has nurtured Jihadis in its madrassahs, never concedes to modernization in education and social practices, never really allows any land reforms or dismantling of feudal exploitation in its backyard.

Pakistan is basically an anachronism, a nation whose only foundational claim for identity is a religion – in a historical period where the world is leaving behind, exclusive and historical claim based religions. Moreover, that religion is not even unique to the country – it is shared by a host of other nations, some of whom have louder and more well established claims of being the centre for that religion. So Pakistan is based on a type of ideology increasingly irrelevant globally as national foundation, and moreover on an ideology based identity shared with other “nations” – and therefore has no real claims of distinction from other nations. It cannot look at history and culture, for in spite of the best sadistic efforts of generations of “mullahs” – elements of pre-Islamic cultures lie firmly interwoven in the national fabric, and those elements are shared by its imagined nemesis – India. In fact the pre-Islamic cultural element proved so strong that a part of it broke away in reaction in 1971 as Bangladesh.

So now Pakistan finds itself in a terrible dilemma. To strengthen and give uniqueness to its national foundation, it has to become more Islamic than “others”. Becoming more Islamic means more and more unquestioning obedience to a strict and literal interpretation of the core texts. That in turn means more Jihad with violent means which accelerates the competition between the ruling feudal elite, the army, the mullahs, the commons, the militants – to become “purer” than the others. That means an almost perpetual state of national Jihad. Purer Islam can only be maintained by preventing modernization – in education, productivity, technology and above all the questing mindset. Which means Pakistan will become more and more dependent on largesse from interested external sources and be a drain on the global economy as the sources would spread the cost around.

So the West and the global community should perhaps start thinking of dissolving the entity called Pakistan. Here are the brief reasons :

(1) Dissolving Pakistan saves the West (and therefore the world economy )a huge amount of money and resources needed to keep the state afloat, and a total drain, because none of that capital goes into productive capacities.

(2) Even though the Chinese are now playing second fiddle to the West, it is uncannily similar to the Ribbentrop-Molotov handshake where both sides appear to be buying time. Eventually, Russia and China could come together with Iran (or whatever is left of it even if a so-called revolutionary liberalization and democratization takes place there under non-theologians) to which the CAR will lean. As long as Pakistan remains an independent entity, it can play the prostitute and threaten to kiss the higher bidder or the one more willing to pay. That is both a security risk and a potential disaster, if everything given to Pakistan lands up in Russian, Iranian or Chinese hands and the West’s presence is virtually terminated in the Afghan-Pakistan frontier. Dissolving Pakistan takes away this worry.

(3) Dissolving Pakistan and putting up new independent states actually creates new multiple centres where Jihad can be protected and nurtured. One Pakistan becomes many and the western problem multiplies. One of the best bets is to allow India to absorb the populations and the territories. India is a growing economy which can absorb the costs. It has the capability and the will to manage multicultural groups and religious animosities. Culturally Indians of the western part of the country will be closer to the Pakistanis across the border [Punjab for example shares the language across the border in spite of the state sponsorship of Urdu] compared to any other external ethnicity or country. Moreover the costs of developing infrastructure and the economy or carrying out necessary social reforms will be borne on Indian shoulders and not on the west.

(4) As the price for non-intervention in the absorption, the West could extract concessions from India that it will have assured access and facilities to reach the CAR through channels and routes maintained and developed through Pakistani territories connecting the Karakorum Highway and other CAR approach routes.

(5) The Taliban lose their foster home, and are buffered off from the crucial supply routes of Karakorums and the Arabian Sea. The so-called Kashmir problem vanishes as the Pakistani military and ISI mechanism to foment terrorists inside India vanishes. So one of the greatest excuses for maintaining Jihad from the Pakistani side vanishes.

India, because of linguistic and unique cultural history, will remain firmly in western and specifically the Anglo-Saxon or Atlanticist orbit for generations to come. There are sufficient fissures in the Indian ruling class for the west to exploit and protect western interests.

It is worth a try – at least the largest source for generating terror of the Jihadi and allied kind (through international crime and other non-religious or ethnic militancy) will be effectively liquidated. At one stroke West no longer has to face Islamist terror, pay for upkeep of Jihad, and instead can profit from a growing economy which bears all the costs!

[Sanku]

I guess Shiv thinks India is still at the stage where we need to internalize that we can and should think of hitting Pakistan in ways and means which are "out of the box" -- I really do wish that he wouldn't make BRF run around on these circles though -- anyway his call as a poster I guess.

So this is a piskological attempt to get people to think out of the box?

Dunno what to think frankly of Shiv's motives, the above just my personal attempt at the most charitable explanation possible.

[CRamS]

Address by Foreign Secretary at the Woodrow Wilson Centre on “Two Democracies - Defining the Essence of India-US Partnership”

http://www.indianembassy.org/newsite/pr ... /Mar/4.asp

Gilani or Quereshi will be in town next week, and speaking to the same crowd in shudh Oxford English on why TSP is a front-line al-lie, and why "resolution of disputes" is important for getting rid of terror, why TSP needs nuke deal bla bla. And it will be equal equal thereafter. And to rub salt to injury, the Woodrow wilson crowd will shower effusive praise on these excellent diplamts from "South Asia" . As I mentioned in my Afghan thread, it is pitfiful India has to plead its case on TSP terror, when it should be slam dunk. But all said and done, at least its good to see India making some noises rather than the willingness to walk the extra mile.

[A_Gupta]

Shiv,

In principle, a Pakhtun push from Afghanistan and rebellion within Pakistan can divide Pakistan. This may not require India to do anything militarily.

Can it happen in practice?

-Arun

[CRamS]

Even if India does not have the capacity to aid in the process of gradual implosion of this artificial state, it does have the capacity to make the cost to the 3.5 supporters of pakistan survival far higher.

Rajaram:

I have been thinking about this, but couldn't come up with a convincing answer. How can India inflict any sort of pain on 3,5 for supporting terrorists against India?

[Atri]

Even if India does not have the capacity to aid in the process of gradual implosion of this artificial state, it does have the capacity to make the cost to the 3.5 supporters of pakistan survival far higher.

Long ago, I wrote this..

From this article - China and its Options - Implications for India

USA and PRC desperately want India to develop and empower her domestic market and abide to rules of WTO faithfully and buy their goods. They will control the demons created by them (Pakistani Army, Taliban and ISI) so that India spends more on development and defence. And India is doing that. But, it is frustratingly slow and also, India's efforts for total indegenisaton and hunger for Transfer of Technology is what is pinching them.

Within 15 years, If current growth rate continues, India will be powerful enough to assert her dominance over Indian Ocean and Indian subcontinent. That will be the time when the need of oil will start becoming dire and India is geopolitically well placed to extract the benefit. It is not long before India will remove this thorn in her leg, called Pakistan and start running.

Hence, they don't want India to become too powerful and start projecting her power beyond her boundaries. In other words, PRC and Unkil are looking for a decent girl who will become an ideal house-wife. Kaaryeshu Daasi, Karaneshu Mantri, Bhojyeshu Maata, Roopeshu Lakshmi, Shayaneshu Rambha, Kshamayeshu Dharitri, Satkarma Naari, Kuladharma Patni as described in Neetishaastram !!

Middle East is firmly under USA's grip and they won't tolerate anybody else's presence, especially of the one who is perceived as friend of Islamic nations due to Israel.

The love which blossomed between Manmohan Singh (MMS) and Bush was strictly business. The asset which dubya liked in Indya was her ecOnOmy and market. If India can work out her internal problems and develop the rural component, she will be able to project her Mohini Roop (economy and market) and Durga Roop (military) at will.

Mohini Roop of Bharati can deal with jolted asuras who were running for Amrita-Kumbha and are now distressed. It is this Mohini Roop that can potentially contribute significant;y in pulling the world out of recession. Beauty is, in strange manner, extremely powerful. Even Durga is described as so incredulously beautiful that Shumbha-Nishumbha fell in love with her. A beautiful intelligent woman with stable mind can achieve lot more than man. Her soft power is extremely potent. Just that, under UPA govt led by MMS, this Mohini became a dumb-blonde.

For people who listen to reason (PRC, USA et al), Mohini can persuade them to fall in line. For dick-heads like Shumbha-Nishumbha, Chanda-Munda and Mahishasura (Pakistani Army, ISI, Taliban et al), Durga-Roop is more than enough.

India can snatch at least one really huge market away from PRC, that is Indian domestic market. Of course, its not that easy and there are WTO considerations and India cannot do like this because India will suffer too.. But, it can at least be used as leverage, which India is not doing.

What will happen if India declares that it will not import anything from a nation which helps Pakistan? Guess, who will suffer the most !!!

[shiv]

Rhetorical question.

Infiltration into Kashmir is definitely up in 2010. But Kashmir is atoog ang no? Part of India. So if Kashmir is facing terrorism we really must include that as a reason to respond no? What was that again that Home Minister Chidambaram said?

[arun]

Arnaud de Borchgrave dusts of an old H&D demolishing article by Pakistani writer Dr. Farrukh Saleem :

Gulliver's Lilliputians

Published: March. 16, 2010 at 8:50 AM
By ARNAUD DE BORCHGRAVE, UPI Editor at Large

WASHINGTON, March 16 (UPI) -- India's two Ambani brothers can buy 100 percent of every company listed on Pakistan's Karachi Stock Exchange and would still be left with $30 billion to spare. This was one of many comparative conclusions about the two countries by Farrukh Saleem, a Pakistani writer focused, with a twinge of envy, on the giant next door.

The four richest Indians, he writes, can buy all goods and services produced over a year by 169 million Pakistanis and still be left with $60 billion to spare. …………….

UPI

[Altair]

Shiv

I have read your book on Pakistan. It is enlightening to say the least. As I understand, the RAPE along with the Army holds the idea of Pakistan.(Correct me if I am wrong). If these people are controlled the rest aka LeTs,JuDs can be starved. If the RAPE/Army can be caught by their neck we can control the nation of Pakistan.
If this is true, We can make a list of the top RAPE's/Army brass of Pakistan and define some parameters which measures their contribution to the idea of Pakistan still holding together.If we have a list of people without whom the whole idea of Pakistan holding together as a nation will be at stake, we can reduce the current half-life of Pakistan considerably.
I can understand the list will run into a couple of thousand but it is possible to list them. Just hit the RAPE's/ Army Brass economically so bad that their current way of life is untenable.(Kind of Economic Hit-Men). If hitting economically is insufficient it can be escalated to next level. Atleast we can make them stay as a single entity and still control them and perhaps avoid a war.

Just my Two paise!
Altair

[sum]

The gist of Nirupama Rao's remarks to her American audience indicated that India had briefly calibrated its approach to Pakistan and initiated talks to see if Islamabad was genuine in ending terrorism directed against India. The Pakistani response showed otherwise.

They must have reduced the dossier output rate from 1 a week to maybe 1 every 2 weeks.

Really calibrated moves indeed.

[Raja Ram]

Rhetorical questions:

1. Indian elite not targeted yet? Diners and guests of Taj and Oberoi on that fateful day were Mango men? The German Bakery visitors in Pune were Aam aadmi?

2. Pune, Mumbai are in "disputed areas" of Kashmir?

The point is that rhetorical questions aside there is a space and room short of outright war to ensure Pakistan is sent to its logical end. What is that space and what can be done is something that has been elaborated many times in the past, for example the piece by R Vaidyanathan after Mumbai attacks is definitely an option.

What are the international precedents? Well the US still maintains a restrictive policy for entities that deal with Cuba and Korea and during the balkan war there was a stranglehold sanctions on Serbia.

India could use its market potential and investment potential to good effect to encourage positive behaviour from the 3.5. This can be backed up by coercive diplomacy to isolate Pakistan, drive a wedge to their backers in the Islamic world (here the recent efforts of India with Saudis and turkey are interesting indeed) and covert military action and threats of overt punitive military action against non state actors at least.

All it takes is to break the most difficult shackle, as I keep saying, the one in the minds. Indians underestimate our strengths and that translates as diffidence. But this thread is about TSP. I just wanted to submit an alternate view point to the peddling of a permanently unstable pakistan surviving being the best interest of India. I am not convinced, so far by the arguments made for the survival of this vile and artificial entity called Pakistan. I am sure willing to listen and get convinced.

[svinayak]

India can snatch at least one really huge market away from PRC, that is Indian domestic market. Of course, its not that easy and there are WTO considerations and India cannot do like this because India will suffer too.. But, it can at least be used as leverage, which India is not doing.

What will happen if India declares that it will not import anything from a nation which helps Pakistan? Guess, who will suffer the most !!!

What will happen if India attacks all the merchant ships of PRC which are used for PRC trade and economy.

[Atri]

India can snatch at least one really huge market away from PRC, that is Indian domestic market. Of course, its not that easy and there are WTO considerations and India cannot do like this because India will suffer too.. But, it can at least be used as leverage, which India is not doing.

What will happen if India declares that it will not import anything from a nation which helps Pakistan? Guess, who will suffer the most !!!

What will happen if India attacks all the merchant ships of PRC which are used for PRC trade and economy.

Why attack? Why not rethink about the import policies by putting a clause which addresses the terrorism based grievances from Pakistan? Certain caps can be put for selective influx of good which are required. At least we should start speaking about this global network which directly and indirectly helps pakistan perpetuate terror against rest of India. that should be vocally expressed in the policies we design while indulging in trade relations with 3.5 friends of Pakistan..

[Prem]

Shiv,
In principle, a Pakhtun push from Afghanistan and rebellion within Pakistan can divide Pakistan. This may not require India to do nything militarily.
Can it happen in practice?
-Arun

Yes, it has the good possibility and require good amount of $ along with logistic support to them. Paki not only know this but fear this. Keep PA busy on Indian border and let Pashtoons exercise hereditary right to rule over certain parts of current Pakland. Afghanistan as Independent entity having separate ethnic identity and national objectives will remain threat to Pukeland. Afghanistan and Indian need strategic partnership and economic Union and this will be very essential for Afghan prosperity to have access to upcoming 2nd or 3rd largest economy on Earth. Overall, Indian capabilty to exert influence the events in that part of the world is going to increase by the years and its a matter of time before Masters and pet Slave reconcile to this reality. How long can they hold and wait? Sooner the better as indians do have millennium long memory .

[CRamS]

The gist of Nirupama Rao's remarks to her American audience indicated that India had briefly calibrated its approach to Pakistan and initiated talks to see if Islamabad was genuine in ending terrorism directed against India. The Pakistani response showed otherwise.

That is naieve. I mean one doesn't have to be a south block manadrin with all the intelligence inputs and data to realize that TSP is using LeT as a hedge towards changing the status quo in Kashmir. Its strrategy is there for all to see. If MMS walks the extra mile and conceedes "joint love making" in Srinagar, TSP will flood the valley with LeT piglets, the promise of honemoon is over even before it starts. On the other hand should he desist from walking the extra mile, TSP's strategy is to launch more Mumbais. Thus, LeT is crucual to TSP's gameplan. No LeT no TSP (and by LeT, I mean not hust Hafeez & Co, but all soosai bumbers at TSP's disposal just waiting for the 72 signal).

[Sanku]

Lets do something really simple first, break all business relation with Pakistan, suspend all sporting ties, at the last moment cancel all the Visa's for C Wealth games. Stop as much water as possible -- call for renegotiation of IWT.

Pass a law stating that enemies of state can be tried in absentia and targeted where ever they are.

Can we do at least these?

[Prem]

[quote="Raja RamWhy horrifying? It is horrifying because those Indians will be born anyway whether we fight a war to break up Pakistan or not. We will have those young people to educate and employ whether we fight that war or not. The clock is not just ticking for Pakistan. It is ticking for India as well.
Pakistan is defined today with a specific purpose. It stands for destruction of India. It is for India to decide now. It has two options. One is to work for the elimination of this entity. Either actively or passively. By passive, one means doing the bear minimum of not helping pakistan in any way or form. Let them solve their surviavability problem. No need for talks or walking extra miles. There are means diplomatic, economic and cooercive military methods to achieve the active part. India can provide carrots and sticks to the 3.5 powers to do the needful.

To achieve any objective regarding Pakistan, first GOI/ Political leadership has to admit that Pakistan is a mortal enemy and then work with the wisdom that mortal enemy is not to be spared at all. Sooner enemy is neutralized using all possible means ,better for the health of natural enviornment ,harmony and happiness etc. First thing first and i.e Indian political and institutional weakness working hard on worthless aims regarding Pak and not working hard enough on Paki destruction , wasting last 40 years. Good thing is Paki stupidity keep provinding us time and oppertunity for us to avail.

[Fidel Guevara]

We must not try to "capture" Pakistan
Buying off Pakistan is not even on the cards and talking about that only fluffs up the discussion without adding value

It is easier to stick to what we can do:

We can attack Pakistan militarily. But to what end? What can be achieved militarily that will make the cost to us from 2010 to 2020 less than the cost from 2000 to 2010?

We can keep on absorbing blows.

Can we accept Pakistan as it is now for the next 50 years? If the answer is "no" what is anyone going to do about it? Ultimately there is no alternative to war to bring down the Pakistan state and punish both its people and its leaders.

Shiv-saar, if we accept Pakistan as is, and passively accept terrorism as the fact of life in having a rabid neighbour, then you are removing one of BRF's cherished raisin dieters.

Besides military action, we can do what SoKo has done to NoKo...become so much more economically powerful than the Pakis, that the difference becomes glaringly obvious even to an India-hater. The RAPEs can today reel off umpteen statistics about the abysmal conditions in India; all that is needed to shatter their self-esteem is to make their statistics totally out-dated and in contrast with reality. When they say "India's literacy rate is x%", they should know that Pakistan's is x/2%. If India improves on all HDI-related fronts, Pakis will have nothing bad to say except made-up "facts" that India is a fascist state and Indians drink certain bovine fluids.

So inaction on the military front, and a fast-growing economy, to the point when an ISI general thinks "do we really have a chance against a country that has 5 times more people and 10 times the GDP"?

[Sanku]

So inaction on the military front, and a fast-growing economy, to the point when an ISI general thinks "do we really have a chance against a country that has 5 times more people and 10 times the GDP"?

How many terror attacks a year has been carried out by NoKo against SoKo in the past year? And the year before that? And yet before? And when SoKo was like 10 times larger GDP than NoKo (like right now India-Pak)

Also SoKo is a client state of US, just as NoKo is a proxy of China!

Is that the level of debasement you want India to get to? Might we also start offering bases in J&K to US?

Hey why play the game by half? As it is now India appears to toe the US line without any obvious claims on bheek (handouts) from US? Lets make it really clear and say we are in your orbit, hook line and sinker?

As it is, MMS when asked to defend his govts stand on US pressure, assures the parliament that we are under no pressure because Obama has not put any ?

I do wonder some time, that who else in India than a handful of us "chaddiwalas" would even blink and eye if we got into a SoKo style relationship with US.

[archan]

Also SoKo is a client state of US, just as NoKo is a proxy of China!

Is that the level of debasement you want India to get to? Might we also start offering bases in J&K to US?

This is how discussions degrade into flame throwing. It is clear to most, I suppose, that what Fidel said was to gain such a big economic edge that even the 3.5 begin to think twice before supporting their munna.
Now, that is a point of view.
You and I may disagree, which is fine.
However, when you start drawing conclusions such as the one quoted, is where I have a problem. He did not say a thing about becoming a client state of USA or whoever. He merely used NoKo and SoKo as examples of a rogue state and a victim state that is economically much stronger than the rogue. That they may be client states of xyz is not supposed to indicate that Fidel wants to see India as a client state of US.
So relax and let the discussions go on with positive contributions as we have seen in the past few pages.
To me it seems that you deliberately draw a conclusion which most others would normally not do. It is unfortunate that you choose to do so and which is why I have to intervene.

[Prem]

'Hard to separate terrorism and Pakistan's nukes'
http://www.mynews.in/News/'Hard_to_sepa ... 40756.html

You mentioned in your address about three contentious issues between India and US: financial makeover, non-proliferation treaty and climate change, of which you said the financial makeover is the easiest to deal with. But despite this, India and US have signed a civil nuclear treaty. What has led to US's change in attitude towards India over the years?TS: What has led to America's change in attitude towards India has nothing to do with those three issues. It was basically three things. The end of the Cold War so that the US no longer organised is foreign policy around the principle that Russia was the big adversary and India no longer had a reason to look to Russia as their primary international support. So that was the first reason for this changed attitude.

The second thing was India's economic growth so that India looked to its future much more in economic terms and the big economic power was the United States, which could then be helpful to India because India had charted a new course in the world. And the third thing is the increasing size and prominence of the Indian-American community, which gave us the kind of personal connection that the US also had with the European countries from which, for example, my ancestors came.The three contentious issues -- there are actually two contentious issues ? the third I think is an asset, they represent the parts of Obama Administration's global agenda. I think the time is ripe for India and the United States to work together on a greater extent on global issues. Because India needs to be involved or they won't be solved.But of the global issues that the Obama Administration is dealing with, one is quite harmonious between India and the US and the others are difficult. That, I think, really is a reflection of the fact that there are difficult problems in the world.How long do you think will the US take to wind up its operations in Afghanistan and how will the equations in the Indian subcontinent shape once US decides to move out of Afghanistan?
TS: That is, I think, a very important question. Afghanistan came first, Iraq came second. Many people, including me, believe that Iraq distracted US attention from the very important, difficult and unfinished business in Afghanistan. Afghanistan, some people believed, will be easy but they were proven quite wrong

[Amber G.]

Tale of a proud Pakistani American...
She wants to offer reality check!
She Visited Karachi ..
And at once thought Pizza Hut was the best thing which happened to Pakistan!! .
But still.. she could not find a decent candy bar let alone malls ..

So she gave up on Pakistan and returned back to candy bars in Tennessee.

Then she visited Karachi again..

And saw the light.. It is a MODERN city with "movie theaters, restaurants, and cafés full of boys and girls smoking, in jeans, mingling together....(why recent pictures of Lahore etc confirms that "smoking" and burning part for sure!)

Now she is a "wide Eye Pakistani-American" and advises America on what to do in a NY Times OpEd. (The worthie is a student at Harvard Kennedy School of Government and a former national security aide in the U.S. Senate )

Read all about it: The title, slightly changed, is more well known and apt:
Let Pakistan stew in its own juices

Summery is already given above, I will quote the Important para:

We need to accept the limits of our capabilities and understanding of realities on the ground. Unlike Iraq and Afghanistan, where the United States and other countries have a huge presence, few Americans travel to Pakistan and U.S. officials are extremely restricted in their movements.

So let Paki stew in its own juices, I say!

[jrjrao]

Groper-e-Fondler Gilani says Pakis now own the world like they have not done in decades:

Pakistan resists call to squeeze Taliban
By James Lamont and Farhan Bokhari in Islamabad
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3dc509da-3120 ... abdc0.html

Pakistan’s government has defended its decision not to launch new offensives in the country’s border regions... (says)Yusuf Raza Gilani, Pakistan’s prime minister...
...
He agreed with claims by some senior Pakistani officials that Islamabad was enjoying some of the greatest leverage over the international community for decades.

“Pakistan is the only country that can help Afghanistan,” he said. “You cannot achieve stability in Afghanistan without Pakistan. Therefore, Pakistan is in a unique position.”

[Amber G.]

BTW who comes out with such silly images eg:
chose not to include inline image <click here>
With the story like:

"We know how to deal with you, India warns Pakistan"

Washington, March 16 – In a blunt warning to Pakistan, Foreign Secretary Nirupama Rao declared here that India’s restraint should not be seen as weakness and that it can deal effectively with those pursuing ‘destructive agendas’ against it.

[Amber G.]

Groper-e-Fondler Gilani says Pakis now own the world like they have not done in decades:

Jr^2, perhaps Groper-e-Fondler read the report and thinks SOS is on his side:

WASHINGTON, March 16 (APP): US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has reaffirmed the Obama administration’s policy to assist Pakistan in ensuring stability ..blah..blah.. terrorist threat in the region will help bring peace and security to Pakistan and Afghanistan.

She also stated in an interview that Washington is increasing and broadening its economic assistance for Pakistan.

“Clearly, you cannot expect to bring stability to Afghanistan without also assisting the Pakistani government in combating terrorism in the region as well. That is why the President’s new strategy looks to assist Pakistan in ensuring stability and constitutional civilian rule,” Clinton told Russian publication The New Times, according to a transcript released by the State Department.

Link:
Clinton vows help in Pakistan stability, economic development
Specially after nuclear deal with France (which even France did not know) it is int their DNA for a mickey mouse to think he is a mighty.

[Karna_A]

Why attack? Why not rethink about the import policies by putting a clause which addresses the terrorism based grievances from Pakistan? Certain caps can be put for selective influx of good which are required. At least we should start speaking about this global network which directly and indirectly helps pakistan perpetuate terror against rest of India. that should be vocally expressed in the policies we design while indulging in trade relations with 3.5 friends of Pakistan..

An anti-dumping Tax of 30% on all countries that provide more than $50 million of arms to TSP in a year.
Anti-dumping can theoretically be applied as instead of dumping goods, the TSP is dumping its piglets in India with help of its assorted friends.

The amount collected from the tax should be used for improving Internal security equipment to make police like National Guards and National guards like Sayeret.

[A_Gupta]

Groper-e-Fondler Gilani says Pakis now own the world like they have not done in decades:
.....

He agreed with claims by some senior Pakistani officials that Islamabad was enjoying some of the greatest leverage over the international community for decades.

The problem with Pakistani self-confidence is that even if it justified in a limited sphere -- (e.g., in this case Pakistan has leverage with the international community in any negotiations with the Taliban - it doesn't extend much beyond that. If the int'l community decides that Taliban should be toast, Pakistani leverage reduces a lot) -- they tend to extend it to every sphere of life.

Same as that stupid military man who thought India's growing economic confidence derived from sports successes.

And that means trouble. E.g., based on someone somewhere saying "Pakistan is indispensable for xxxxx" they will expand that to mean that they can get whatever they want. They will take 5 paisa deposited in their self-confidence bank and behave like a crorepati. I think they will push jihadis into J&K simply based on this supposed "indispensability". This is where a self-confidence-deflating jhaapad from India is absolutely necessary.

The crisis-of-the-moment will inevitably change. E.g., Iran gets a nuke, and suddenly Afghanistan becomes a backwater problem, while US, Iran, Israel, Saudi Arabia duke it out. Pakistan is no longer indispensable, and it will (fortunately for us) swing to the other extreme of being a used paper napkin.

If some BRFer is a mental health professional, he/she can comment, but I think collectively Pakistanis are:
a. delusional
b. manic depressive

and god knows what else.

-Arun