The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 10 Jun 2011 23:34

Carl wrote:ravi_ku,
Shaurya_T took the words out of my mouth.

Usage of common symbols for political communication does not imply identity between a Gandhi and a BR, nor even belonging to the same category necessarily. Sanity means that we discriminate between themes and tendencies rather than indulge in identities.

In that case let us not judge one against another person as the ideal.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2011 23:34

Shaurya: Brilliant post. A frequent term that is often used with some Hindu guru is "self-styled". That term is so odd from the Indian perspective. Shakespeare says in the Twelfth Night "Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon 'em". I am not sure why Indian media finds it giggly enough to add that to gurus they do not like. Some of the gurus are born leaders, upon realizing their potential they spread their message using all the powers they have. What is wrong? Buddha did it. Sankar di it. Ramanuja did it. There are cases in our tradition, where gurus are anointed as heads to some mathas (mutts ?). Call it the bane of human society, every now and then a few bad apples will turn out and cheat people.

Ramadev seems to be more of a nationalist and spiritual leader. I see no reason why he or anyone else should be prevented from using national or traditional elements to spread the message. If he turns out to be a bad apple, then so be it. That is the price we pay for a culture that is open enough to allow dissension, discussion and evolution.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 10 Jun 2011 23:36

Acharya wrote:
SwamyG wrote:Shaardula and Dilbu: Hope this eases your takleef. It does ease mine, I too was uncomfortable with the words "arms", "militia" ityadi.

We'll fight corruption with love, not war, says Indian guru
When one loses touch their own people then we are going to feel uncomfortable. Most of what we read about Indians is form a thrid person perspective and not from our own people view of the rest of the world.

The talk of arms and militia were reported by the Indian press - our own people. I do not know what you are talking about.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 10 Jun 2011 23:38

ShauryaT wrote:
We need to wake up and stop the evaluation of ours and our leaders conduct, from a western narrative of religion and what it means for them and its role in their society - for they do not match. They do not match because the very role of "religion" and what it means and stands for is so vastly different that they are ideological opposites in many respects.
We ought to stop using this western narrative of religion and its role in our society, which blinds us from the real issues that confront us. It is the same western narrative that blinds our DIE leaders too.

Social engineering of an elite class in India has been successful who want to preach western paradigm.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jun 2011 23:41

Aaah, so your(Carl) perspective is because of the use of "western narrative of religion", but according to the "indian narrative of religion" in the usage of "religious symbols", Gandhi is a non-entity. Gandhi has only used hinduism, but never tried to develop it's thought process in a significant way.

So why crib when RD has been compared to a non-entity.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 10 Jun 2011 23:45

brihaspati wrote:I think I have from the beginning of posting here been saying that he should not have been involved. Reasons, as far as I could tell on an open forum, I have stated. But what bothers is an attempted dissection of his character, motivations, intentions based on criteria which are equally applicable to the Ulema or the fatwaists, or even as I have pointed out earlier by quoting MKG himself [ in an earlier post] to icons of the current rashtra.

I get your point, and agree. But this is a digression from Lokpal and getting us there - exactly what the Congress wants.

What is curious is that you think "democratic politics" is not his forte. Does it mean that even if he has not shown immediate coincidence with the demanded for forms of democratic politics [by that criteria lost of movements, including many led by Congress stalwarts both before and after the Independence would become un-democratic], he cannot "evolve" into a "practitioner" - or that he should not be allowed to evolve so?

He certainly can, no questions about it.

ravi_ku wrote:So why crib when RD has been compared to a non-entity.

Why crib and equate BR to Hinduism? I was pointing out the circular identifications and objections, and you just came up with another one.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 10 Jun 2011 23:51

Carl,

While I identify as a Hindu myself, I have studied and practiced Vipassana (in addition to kul-devata religious traditions) for nearly 16 years now. Nothing in that hatchet-job of an Asia Times article has any bearing whatsoever on the principles, perspectives or worldview of Vipassana. I am curious why you have posted it, because by example it lends strength to the very position you're arguing against.

The author of that article is the one shamelessly usurping a spiritual pedestal to engage in the politically motivated character-assassination of the ruling party's enemies... in that sense, he is a living, breathing caricature of the very thing that Mainovadis breathlessly accuse Baba Ramdev of being.

SwamyG wrote:Shaurya: Brilliant post. A frequent term that is often used with some Hindu guru is the "self-styled".

Bingo. What is renunciation except an act centered on the self? If a guru is not "self-styled", then for legitimacy, who must "style" him so... the Pope? Or would some child-molesting flunkey in an Archdiocese be adequate?

Kudos to Shaurya, as well, for pointing out the needful.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 10 Jun 2011 23:56

Carl wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:So why crib when RD has been compared to a non-entity.
Why crib and equate BR to Hinduism? I was pointing out the circular identifications and objections, and you just came up with another one.

me equating BR with hinduism

going OT, suggest you reread what I wrote.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2011 00:03

Again people are going personal. Back off.

Thanks, ramana

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 11 Jun 2011 00:18

Dear mod. Why not include BR's name in title as well when last 15 pages are about him? Thanks.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 11 Jun 2011 00:25

Rudradev wrote:I am curious why you have posted it, because by example it lends strength to the very position you're arguing against.

The author of that article is the one shamelessly usurping a spiritual pedestal to engage in the politically motivated character-assassination of the ruling party's enemies

Rudradev, that's possible. I posted it assuming the author's best intentions, probably reflecting the thoughts of many others in India who have grown skeptical about guru scandals, etc. That author also supports the Lokpal campaign and people like Anna Hazare. That's why I wanted to question the tendency to blow the "denigrating Hinduism" angle out of proportion. Not everyone who is uncomfortable with Swami BR is a pro-Congress anti-Hindu p-sec. I just scanned some of the posts and realized that Brihaspati ji had acknowledged that.

Shaashtanga · Post by **Shaashtanga** » 11 Jun 2011 00:45

Manishw wrote:
Pranav wrote:Recent lecture by Swamy in Chandigarh:

excellent video.... i love listening to swamiji.... i pray to god to give him long life so that he can keep exposing those who need to be exposed....

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2011 00:52

IndraD wrote:Dear mod. Why not include BR's name in title as well when last 15 pages are about him? Thanks.

I tried when I moved the thread from GDF but couldnt find the post that has the title. The first post doesnt do ti. Will ask archan or RahulM as they might know how to do it.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Jun 2011 01:00

Carl wrote:Not everyone who is uncomfortable with Swami BR is a pro-Congress anti-Hindu p-sec. I just scanned some of the posts and realized that Brihaspati ji had acknowledged that.

Certainly a reasonable assumption.

Meanwhile, not everyone who follows Swami BR, whether for yoga lessons or in his anti-corruption movement or both, is a "rabid saffron Hindu nationalist" either... as I'm sure you will agree.

Yet those are exactly the terms in which the Congress government has chosen to frame the debate; they have taken the intellectually dishonest position of mischaracterizing the entirely legitimate anti-corruption campaign as "extra-constitutional blackmail", with imputed connections to Hindutva, RSS, BJP, "saffron terrorism" and every other scarecrow in their playbook. In using these specific categories of demonization to justify the inexcusable police action against Swami BR's followers in Delhi last week, they have only compounded that position.

It is an unfortunate consequence of the Maino Congress' behaviour in this regard, that many nationalists have mirrored the Congress' position by imputing (as you describe) that "everyone uncomfortable with Swami BR must be a pro-Congress anti-Hindu p-sec." Both positions amount to ablations of the message that are not useful. However, it cannot be denied that the Congress initiated the process of ablation by ascribing "Saffron/Hindutva/Sangh-Parivar" motivations to what has been an immensely popular mass movement against corruption.

Agnimitra · Post by **Agnimitra** » 11 Jun 2011 01:21

Rudradev wrote:Meanwhile, not everyone who follows Swami BR, whether for yoga lessons or in his anti-corruption movement or both, is a "rabid saffron Hindu nationalist" either... as I'm sure you will agree.

Yet those are exactly the terms in which the Congress government has chosen to frame the debate; they have taken the intellectually dishonest position of mischaracterizing the entirely legitimate anti-corruption campaign as "extra-constitutional blackmail", with imputed connections to Hindutva, RSS, BJP, "saffron terrorism" and every other scarecrow in their playbook. In using these specific categories of demonization to justify the inexcusable police action against Swami BR's followers in Delhi last week, they have only compounded that position.

Precisely. The UPA government’s arrogance and ineptitude, and its visible disdain for both the Anna and Ramdev movements, has now handed the opposition an issue on a platter. But the issue is the charge against corruption, not charicatures of Hinduism. Allowing the discourse to take off on that tangent is counter-productive.

What is needed right now is a final draft of the Bill from the Center so that the States can give feedback and the public can scrutinize it. It looks like the Congress is trying to hurry through the stakeholder feedback process and the "communalism" ruckus provides perfect cover for such chicanery. So a knee-jerk reaction to Congress provocation is to play into their hands.

Modi writes to Pranab on Lokpal draft

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 11 Jun 2011 01:30

Jaitley, Nitish unite Opp on Lokpal Bill

June 11, 2011 2:09:07 AM

PNS | New Delhi

When Odisha Chief Minister Naveen Patnaik responded on Wednesday to Finance Minister Pranab Mukherjee’s letter seeking his response to six contentious issues relating to the Lokpal Bill, he appeared to be in league with other non-Congress leaders and Chief Ministers who wanted the Government to first prepare a draft and then seek suggestion on it.

The “commonness” in letters from the Odisha Chief Minister and other Opposition parties, it now transpires, was the result of a coordinated effort by senior BJP leader Arun Jaitley, who is also the Leader of the Opposition in Rajya Sabha, and Bihar Chief Minister Nitish Kumar.

Sources confirmed to The Pioneer that these two leaders of the principal Opposition combine NDA played a key role in persuading non-NDA parties to have a common strategy on the issue, thereby refusing to give the Congress-led Government an opportunity to breathe easy.

“Jaitley and Nitish, in consultation with BJP chief Nitin Gadkari, drafted the theme of the letter. This was later suggested to the BJP and NDA chief ministers, who in return sent it to Pranab Mukherjee after making suitable changes. Jaitley and Nitish later spoke to several other non-NDA leaders to keep their response in line with that drafted by them,” sources privy to the backroom discussions between Opposition leaders said.

Besides the Odisha Chief Minister, it is learnt, the NDA leaders also spoke to TDP Chief N Chandrababu Naidu, some Left leaders and other non-Congress Opposition parties to have ‘similar responses’ to Pranab’s letter.

Reports say Bahujan Samaj Party of Mayawati, which is in power in UP, and the Samajwadi Party of Mulayam Singh Yadav were also contacted. Theirs besides J Jayalalithaa’s response to Pranab’s letter would also be keenly watched.

The BJP and the left have coordinated “floor strategy” inside Parliament for quite sometime now, but their ideological differences have prevented them from having any sort of electoral understanding outside.

It would also be premature to suggest any political re-alignments in Andhra Pradesh and Odisha immediately, but the NDA has always looked forward to having an alliance with the TDP and Patnaik’s Biju Janata Dal in these two states.

The behind-the-scene discussions between Opposition leaders, however, signal the emergence of Jaitley and Nitish as the rallying point of Opposition’s politics. The two leaders have “friends” across party lines and have refrained from taking a hardline position on minority issues, which could upset non-Congress parties.

Political observers feel Nitish’s role in this episode is also indicative of his strengthening position in the NDA, which is leaving no stone unturned to dislodge the UPA from power in the next general election, due in 2014.

Moreover, Jaitley is always known as a driving force behind anti-Congressism, which could act as glue between NDA allies and some other non-Congress parties.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/344561/Jait ... -Bill.html

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 11 Jun 2011 01:38

ramana wrote:Raghavendra & Arjun,
Am adminstering warnings for your gratitious remarks on Bengalis. Don't do that again.

Hi Ramana, I do think a dialogue can be had about regional influences on values without necessarily getting into any form of stereotyping. I had made that very explicit in my post and also that the intent was to understand these regional influences better. Please do relook at whether a warning is deserved.

I have no hesitation in saying that Bengal and its people are a key pillar without which India will be poorer. My intent was to understand this pillar better, and my post specifically mentions this.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 11 Jun 2011 01:43

Manishw wrote:
Pranav wrote:Recent lecture by Swamy in Chandigarh:

are these allegations correct about bribe? It is mind boggling.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 11 Jun 2011 01:57

Send Digvijaya to mental asylum: Anna

http://www.ndtv.com/video/player/news/s ... nna/202128

manju · Post by **manju** » 11 Jun 2011 01:58

Sanku wrote:
somnath wrote: you havent been reading my posts!
Actually no one really READS your post, they use it for purposes of a emetic after the junk that the DiE media fills humans with.

I thought I was alone.. May be we should have an app, where we can filter - Not "Som.xxxH" so we can get to what we want!

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jun 2011 02:20

somnath wrote: But then, that is hardly as exciting an activity as serial abuse towards INC, Commie, Muslims, Maoists, Swami Agnivesh, Arundhati Roy, Shekhar Gupta, Page 3 and every single strawman target that can be invented..

did they personally let you know that they were feeling "abused"?

But then only a real "man" can feel "abused" isn't it, so if they feel abused they cannot be "strawmen"!

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 11 Jun 2011 02:22

IndraD wrote:are these allegations correct about bribe? It is mind boggling.

Indra ji, the case is sub judiced... Swamy was instrumental in forcing INC to abandon DMK and throw kani and raja in jail. He has also filed cases on these issues. lets see what happens...

sudeepj · Post by **sudeepj** » 11 Jun 2011 02:24

Shaashtanga wrote:Recent lecture by Swamy in Chandigarh:

excellent video.... i love listening to swamiji.... i pray to god to give him long life so that he can keep exposing those who need to be exposed....

so has Subramanian Swami been appointed as public prosecutor in the 2G case or not?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 03:24

^^Does he have proper anti-saffron credentials required for such posts?

Vashishtha · Post by **Vashishtha** » 11 Jun 2011 03:40

^^Looking at the last few moments of the video, i dont think so.... Soon we'll have a debate on NDTV with burkha whining about the public prosecutors links with the terrorist RSS.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Jun 2011 04:35

This is sure going to be tricky. Yes I don't mind specifics. But are you sure you want to do this? its going to be fun.

B Ji, i have been extremely polite in my replies to you. I have categorized my stance on the issue in 3 simple points that still stand.

You have been wishy washy. You've not put ONE point on how you'd like to remove corruption.

As far as 'fun' goes: You clearly indicate you're here to troll on posters. I'm not holding a rally in Ramlila or Jantar Mantar with some demand. If anyone does, a billion people and more want and answer to what exactly the person stands for. Your rhetoric notwithstanding.

When i stand in public for something, please do ask me, question me and my motives on whatever specifics. Stop threatening or patronizing to badger me on an internet forum. You are sounding stale and like a broken record and hence my earlier request you take a break when you accused me of becoming Nazi by some weird logic. Quoting Volume 61 of XYZ doesn't put you on the right side of Dharma. Thinking rationally and commenting so on this forum will probably. You and many others have been discussing NOTHING on corruption for 15 pages or so now. I have been repeatedly trying to bring the topic back on track. But as i mentioned right in my first post Point 3 was and will be now relevant to folks. According to you and others: India's corruption problem is not endemic, but only specific to Page 3 Psec. If that is the thinking : That is and will be the downfall of India and Bharat.

Feel also very free to keep your threat of hounding me wherever i post. You clearly don't have the matter within or capability to do so successfully. You've displayed very credibly the vacuum you carry within you. Stop preaching on Dharma. You're not on it's side.

So much for you being a Bharat Rakshak!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2011 05:32

I talked to couple of friends, one is in Karnataka and he says Ramadev is exactly not in the minds of people. Another friend who scans telugu newspapers said they are just mocking him for now. If this is the case of KA and AP; I can almost rule out TN too.

Rudradev · Post by **Rudradev** » 11 Jun 2011 05:34

According to you and others: India's corruption problem is not endemic, but only specific to Page 3 Psec.

Harbans ji, however much you may admire certain posters, it is disappointing to see you drag yourself down to their level by presenting this completely baseless and clearly defamatory strawman.

India's corruption problem is indeed endemic, and spreads across party lines. No one has denied that. It is also undeniable that the political culture responsible for endemic corruption has been established by decades of rule by a single party, the one that occupies power today in its most perverse avatar of all time.

Yet, when a person is creating public awareness of this, Page 3 PSec Propaganda Mouthpieces of the Maino regime (on this forum and elsewhere) are going out of their way to discredit that person.

Despite the alleged "expertise" of some of these Mouthpieces in economics ... a false impression conveyed by spouting jargon and irrelevances as a fleeing squid spews ink in its wake... they are unable to come up with one valid criticism of that person or his stated demands, which isn't predicated on empty invective, diversionary non-sequiturs and blatant lies. The rank intellectual dishonesty of these Mouthpiece arguments has been repeatedly exposed, by many posters on this forum, and yet it continues with utter shamelessness. What does this show, to anyone who isn't willfully blind?

"Defend" whomever you want, that is your right. However, in characterizing Brihaspati-ji (and "others") of holding a position which nobody in this debate has ever taken, you are only demeaning your own standing on this forum as a respected and credible poster.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 11 Jun 2011 05:48

Also Harbansji no need for those words in caps. It will provoke a response. Not a good idea.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Jun 2011 05:54

Rudradev Ji:

You post: India's corruption problem is indeed endemic, and spreads across party lines. No one has denied that.

I Posted: Sanku Ji with due apologies, but corruption is so endemic in India it cut's across all lines and hues of the political and religious spectrum. (Page 34)

I again Post after Manish's one liner: The poster says corruption is the result of the deracinated elite. I say and most here will vouch it runs across the political and social spectrum. There is no one in the country that disputes that. This is the first time i am hearing that corruption in India is the symptom of one hue of folks. (Same page)

So indeed i know what i am talking about. You're therefore incorrect to say no one denies that. It's right here on this forum a couple of pages back.

You post: Yet, when a person is creating public awareness of this,

I Posted: As i mentioned there are 3 aspects to the discussion ongoing about BR.
1. Mass awareness against corruption: Results in Govt taking steps to curb it, low level officials on the back-foot. Out of 5 marks give BR 5 on that.

You Post: However, in characterizing Brihaspati-ji (and "others") of holding a position which nobody in this debate has ever taken, you are only demeaning your own standing on this forum as a respected and credible poster.

Now Rudradev Ji, if i am classified as a Nazi using what logic?

In a way, you are reflecting the Congress tendency to appropriate control over protest or counter-currents both inside and outside the parliament, a demand by the Congress "centre" to control public discourse. That, if you are not choosing to be deliberately blind, is the beginning of Nazism or totalitarianism.

You expect me to keep still and not get worked up being called a Nazi? Yet i did'nt. I told him to take a break because he is reading too much into nothing. There is no agenda here i have. Except Bharat's good being. I only got raved at him threatening to troll me across the forum for "Fun" on the same terms that i expect someone who is intending legal, political and social change at the center. No Sir, i stand firm and correct in my postings.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 11 Jun 2011 06:07

Thread renamed

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 11 Jun 2011 06:12

Prasad wrote:
CRamS wrote:I think this arms crap was a red herring and would have been hijacked by p-secs and neanderthal perverts to DogVagina singh to crack down on BR and his movement. The likes of BR couldn't hurt even a fly however hard they try.
I wonder if this particular twist of his name shd be put out on twitterverse. Would spread like fire I'm sure.

Another term that needs to be popularized is "Maino-vaadis" for the Kangressis.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 06:59

harbans wrote:This is sure going to be tricky. Yes I don't mind specifics. But are you sure you want to do this? its going to be fun.

B Ji, i have been extremely polite in my replies to you. I have categorized my stance on the issue in 3 simple points that still stand.

You have been wishy washy. You've not put ONE point on how you'd like to remove corruption.

As far as 'fun' goes: You clearly indicate you're here to troll on posters. I'm not holding a rally in Ramlila or Jantar Mantar with some demand. If anyone does, a billion people and more want and answer to what exactly the person stands for. Your rhetoric notwithstanding.

When i stand in public for something, please do ask me, question me and my motives on whatever specifics. Stop threatening or patronizing to badger me on an internet forum. You are sounding stale and like a broken record and hence my earlier request you take a break when you accused me of becoming Nazi by some weird logic. Quoting Volume 61 of XYZ doesn't put you on the right side of Dharma. Thinking rationally and commenting so on this forum will probably. You and many others have been discussing NOTHING on corruption for 15 pages or so now. I have been repeatedly trying to bring the topic back on track. But as i mentioned right in my first post Point 3 was and will be now relevant to folks. According to you and others: India's corruption problem is not endemic, but only specific to Page 3 Psec. If that is the thinking : That is and will be the downfall of India and Bharat.

Feel also very free to keep your threat of hounding me wherever i post. You clearly don't have the matter within or capability to do so successfully. You've displayed very credibly the vacuum you carry within you. Stop preaching on Dharma. You're not on it's side.

So much for you being a Bharat Rakshak!

Which was the post where I attacked you personally or added invectives against you in person - so that you had to respond with this exquisite example of politeness directed at me personally :

I don't know what you're spinning inside your head thinking some kind of deception is going on. Asking for further specifics has now become too much to ask? Then what exactly are we discussing here on removing corruption. I have clearly made 3 points right in my first post here. The 3rd point is this that : This is not about 'corruption' anymore. This is about a raw nerve being hit Psec - BR camp. The discussion will be centered now on exactly the theme of 'deception' spins you are accusing others off out of thin air. And if you think you have better ideas to remove corruption, why don't you for a change list out something, rather than just make some accusatory statements in an otherwise meaningless post.

Actually I had also repeatedly raised some issues about the wholesale attack going on BR's motivation. intention, qualification etc. I clearly mentioned that I see no logic in attacking BR's method as "blackmailing/holding elected gov to ransom/bypassing electoral process to get power" and "extra-constitutional" - when the "fatwaists" demands and methods are not found to be "extra-constitutional". What was your polite response - that I was dishing out "inanities".

I merely observed that you refuse to see the parallels, as well as the bias or baselessness of the "extra-constitutional" labeling. The whole discussion was centred around the bashing of BR on his "method" which went for pages and pages - and you did not find it worthwhile to intervene then? You did not find that attack irrelevant and inane because it did not deal with "specifics" and did not provide any concrete new proposal for eradication of "corruption"?

As for specifics - since you claim to read line by line certain posters, surely you have noticed that posters you admire themselves declare that it is a long distance from "intent/idea" to a bill, and that it is the "idea" itself which can be bashed or dissed as "bunkum" - no question of specifics here.

I will skip your other "serial abuse" aspects in the post above - which however I have never matched in anything that I have written directed at you - to come to the Nazi question. I could have used the infinite arrogance mode of your admired poster to dismiss it as a "comprehension" problem : but what was actually written?

"In a way, you are reflecting the Congress tendency to appropriate control over protest or counter-currents both inside and outside the parliament, a demand by the Congress "centre" to control public discourse."

This was because you were lending support to the position, that unless "specifics" were provided with any demand on any issue [then again who decides how much was needed as specifics to be acceptable - no answer from your side to that] such demands could not even be placed outside the legislature in the public discourse. This amounts to the legislative parties seeking control over forms/modes/content of demands even outside of legislature. [I had even produced examples from Parliamentary debate - as to how "issues" were raised and what time and processes it took to be filled out in terms of "specifics"].

That, if you are not choosing to be deliberately blind, is the beginning of Nazism or totalitarianism.

Now this sentence follows "a demand by the Congress "centre" to control public discourse." It is the tendency in a party to demand control over public discourse - what can be its content or not, who can speak on it or not, that is being pointed out as the "beginning of Nazism or totalitarianism."

Nazism or totalitarianism - are "isms". If it was intended to paint you the person as a Nazi or totalitarian - the sentence would have read,

That, if you are not choosing to be deliberately blind, is the beginning of becoming a Nazi or totalitarian.

The fact that "specifics" actually have not been identified as the discussion point - by posters you instructed us to read through, is significant - because even that poster knows that even legislators/political parties/electorally legitimate-beings start out with "ideas" and move towards specifics. If starting with specifics was made the pre-condition for legitimacy of demands or even the right to place or speak of issues and demands - then the greatest problem will redound on the political parties/elected themselves.

But since you insisted on "specifics" as the pre-condition for raising any issues - I stated that I am game for it. In another post not connected or directed at you, I merely state that I would go for specifics on every issue raised by those who insist on "specifics" as precondition for any discussion. I said it was "going to be fun" which at its simplest means "I" would be enjoying it. I did not say that I would make fun of anyone. There is a great deal of difference between the two. You were so ready to pounce on me with epithets that you jumped to conclusions without thought on what exactly the expressions meant. That is the "politeness" shown by you.

Your avoidance of the "extra-constitutional" issue and not intervening or complaining against that inanity in pages and pages before, already showed to me where you stand ideologically on this debate. Comparing your posts and mine, I think it would be obvious who has been polite and who has not, and who gave vent to personal hatred.

We can stop responding to each others posts if that helps. Regards.

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Jun 2011 07:09

Harbans , Sidhant has already articulated what imho should be the way to approach and view the BRD's agitation. You know sometime I think the more educated/pragmatic/practical a person is he ends up over-analysing and thinking too much about things; specially when it comes to contentitous issues taking a side would mean getting into the muck. BRD is doing just that but then as they say 'ghar ki safai mein haat to gande hote hain' (one has to get his hands dirty while cleaning the house) so not everyone is ready to get his/her hands dirty. I am sure many of us supoprting BRD here on BRF will think twice before taking to the streets and joining BRD's sabha but hey again it is due to the 'log kya kahenge syndrome' or the relative sophistry of us elites (yes majority of us on BRF are India's elites, not in the league of Mainos and Pawars but definetly middle/upper middle class) which prevents us from actually being a 'karma yogi' hence all we do here is talk . My point is if I cannot do anything tangible to support BRD I would prefer to not pull him down because his style does not titilate my taste buds.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 11 Jun 2011 07:13

This is Somnath in full bloom

somnath wrote: The "common man" doesnt, but someone/people purporting to carry on "movements" to solve the issue need to...Is BR simply standing in line with millions of other people simply lamenting about black money? In which case, what was he negotiating secretly with the govt on? What indeed did he mean by saying that the "govt has accepted 99% of his proposals"? And of course, what was the fast about?

We were discssing the modus operandi and objectives of BR, not the "common man"...I am still at a loss on what is "this" that the good Baba wanted in order to not do the "fast", apparently 99% of of which was accpeted by the govt...

I keep going back to it - but compare this against the modus operandi /objectives of Arvind K and Co for Lokpal..They knew what they need to do, they had a draft (howsoever utopian) ready, their demands were clear, open and transparent...Aboive al, they achieved something tangible, a movement forward..

Or maybe, just maybe, the good Baba is attempting a live demonstration of how to bring transparency through a process of ambiguity and obfuscation and glib rustic talk! In the same vein as his live demostration to the differently oriented on specific asanas to cure the "disease" (I mean I assume he did his yoga while being cross dressed)

BTW..That armed militia thing came on live TV...

Interesting piece on the BR phenomenon by Dipankar Gupta...
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/story ... 40882.html

and here comes the great defender

harbans wrote:I am posting this for only one reason: Defending Somnath ji and his POV. ( Though i am sure he does not require this defense)

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 11 Jun 2011 07:25

I am posting this for only one reason: Defending Somnath ji and his POV. ( Though i am sure he does not require this defense)

First: After 10 pages of discussion the most pertinent question that was put forward was by Somnath ji. What is that 'this' that they demand?

Manish at least get the context correct. Someone fasts and has a demand for legislative, political changes. And after 10 pages of Pse-BR Camp debate, you've not even asked what exactly he is demanding and how he intends to go about it? If i support Somnath Ji asking that, am i wrong? How many posters here have interjected and tried a course correction on folks like you singing the same Psec-BR camp song for 20 pages now? It's not me or Somnath that are belittling the anti corruption momentum. It's folks like you repeating ad nauseam the same thing over the last 20 pages. I also have made it clear his pro INC stand is his take. It does not matter to this discussion on corruption as that runs through different political spectrums. I gave examples to that effect. But obviously you just can't see.

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Jun 2011 07:30

Somnath has shifted goal posts with his usual style; posting data/facts which are of no relevance to the issue at hand.

1. This is not a case of 'tax evasion'; the kind of figures being thrown about in the media and wikileaks are not something which one can amass by just evading taxes on lawfully earned money. I find it hard to believe of all the people Somnath does not understand this.

2. 90s reforms and MMS's wah wahi; what has it got to do with the problem of black money ? A chronology of Hasan Ali's ways shows he amassed all that money mostly after the 90s , so what gives ?

3. What has BRD's views on homosexuality or claims of curing diseases got to do with the issue ? Morarji used to drink his own pee but that didn't prevent him from becoming our PM so what gives ? MMS spends more sleepless nights thinking about his hometown Lyalpur and ensuring that only a certain community has first rights to India's resources , so why can't BRD take a bit of liberty himself ?

4. Somnath was defending Binayak sen on other dhaga a few days back ; where did those arguments go when BRD's essentially peaceful protest at Ram Leela maidan was brutally suppressed by the GoI ? The reports of him raising a armed militia only surfaced after that . Who drew the first blood ? Where is the motherfckn healing touch I ask , is it reserved only for the stone pelters of certain community or those who dare to assemble in Dilli and talk of separating Kashmir from India ?

negi · Post by **negi** » 11 Jun 2011 07:47

Harbans are you kidding me ? The very first day when the the reports of Indians having money in a bank in 'Liechtenstein ' surfaced the GoI was asked to make the names public (I guess later ToI came out with a story with some names ).Prof. RVaidya from IIMB has already published a draft of how he wants to go about it ; is it neccessary that BRD has to come up with something as concrete which will titilate the taste buds of Fin wizs ? I am pretty sure RVaidya sir will be more than happy to share his research on the subject with BRD if GoI budges and makes a few heads move. BRD's strength is he has a wide support base which he can leverage to spread awareness and build pressure on the GoI. For an argument'sa sake does MMS know exactly as to how he is going to go about delivering the tall promises he makes from top of the Lal-Quila ? Why don't we hear about pragmatics come out and question his claims/promises ?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 11 Jun 2011 07:52

Fasting is intended mainly for spiritual upliftment. In an extreme scenario of pre-independence, when Mahatma Gandhi used fasting as a last resort to make it clear to the british that we want them out of India, fasting by Mahatma Gandhi was justified. Today's fasting is more of a gimmick and is not really needed.One can quietly fast for acheiving spiritual progress, in a proper regulated manner, but fasting all the time to push a point through the government's thick skulls is pointless.
Ekadasi on 12th is a perfect day to fast for spiritual progress, and should be done at home, on a low key. Fasting in public to get attention shows how weak one's agenda really is. I did not believe that copying what Anna Hazare started will work again, and it did not work when BR did it.He should have instead gone to the Himalayan retreats he has access to, and sat down to meditate and calmed his mind down a bit.He was in a rush to grab this position Anna Hazare has reached, to commandeer the situation, perhaps BJP pushed him into it.BJP realises Anna Hazare is independent, will not tow their line, so they wanted a share of the glory and pushed BR into it I feel, don't you see how Ms Sushma Swaraj rushed to see the Baba? Definitely BJP is behind his fast, there cannot be much doubt.On the other hand, Modi has demanded that the agenda pertaining to the Lokpal Bill be sent to him to study and analyze. He is more or less on the right track here, not BR.We junta need to know what the likes of Modi think of the bill before we go into full remote support mode for the Lokpal Bill.I do support Anna Hazare, he is talking sense all the time, but I cannot have a truck with BR.

Manishw · Post by **Manishw** » 11 Jun 2011 08:06

sanjeevpunj wrote:Fasting is intended mainly for spiritual upliftment. In an extreme scenario of pre-independence, when Mahatma Gandhi used fasting as a last resort to make it clear to the british that we want them out of India, fasting by Mahatma Gandhi was justified. Today's fasting is more of a gimmick and is not really needed.One can quietly fast for acheiving spiritual progress, in a proper regulated manner, but fasting all the time to push a point through the government's thick skulls is pointless.
Ekadasi on 12th is a perfect day to fast for spiritual progress, and should be done at home, on a low key.

Thanks for the spiritual bhashan on behalf of anybody needing it.I at least did not.

sanjeevpunj wrote: Fasting in public to get attention shows how weak one's agenda really is. I did not believe that copying what Anna Hazare started will work again, and it did not work when BR did it.He should have instead gone to the Himalayan retreats he has access to, and sat down to meditate and calmed his mind down a bit.He was in a rush to grab this position Anna Hazare has reached, to commandeer the situation, perhaps BJP pushed him into it.BJP realises Anna Hazare is independent, will not tow their line, so they wanted a share of the glory and pushed BR into it I feel, don't you see how Ms Sushma Swaraj rushed to see the Baba? Definitely BJP is behind his fast, there cannot be much doubt.

Thanks for the ct story, add it to your fiction novels since its without any base or backing.Just inanities.

sanjeevpunj wrote: On the other hand, Modi has demanded that the agenda pertaining to the Lokpal Bill be sent to him to study and analyze. He is more or less on the right track here, not BR.We junta need to know what the likes of Modi think of the bill before we go into full remote support mode for the Lokpal Bill.I do support Anna Hazare, he is talking sense all the time, but I cannot have a truck with BR.

Ah Modi is the man to hide behind, a epitome of everything wrong with India in the eyes of the imperialists.Man the situation must be getting really desperate for the imperialists.

Last I heard Modi was in BJP which according to you is hand and glove with RD with whom you have no truck.Ah the delicious irony of it.People tripping and spinning to fit facts to suit their agenda.