Bharat Rakshak

If NATO is all about unifying trans-atlanic states in EU and US, how does bogging EU down with war and economic turmoil help NATO? IF this is a long game waiting out Putin's tenure to start all the real action after his death, then why start now when Putin is at the helm?

vijaykarthik wrote:
Its just as easy to use this same thing against China instead of Russia. even if what you are saying its true, it still begs the qn - why Russia and why now when the pivot to Asia / Indo pacific is what the US wants the most. why get bogged down in EU?

Is almost as if, the Biden admin is an extension of PRC. Pushing Russia deeper in bed with PRC. Instead of attempting to breakup the PRC-Russia relationship. By giving Russia the breathing space they need.

srikandan wrote:If NATO is all about unifying trans-atlanic states in EU and US, how does bogging EU down with war and economic turmoil help NATO? IF this is a long game waiting out Putin's tenure to start all the real action after his death, then why start now when Putin is at the helm?

If NATO is an organic entity. Then it needs to survive and redefine it's purpose. Saber rattling against Russia is the easiest way to do that.

Pratyush wrote:By giving Russia the breathing space they need.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a democratically elected government. The US will obviously not “give” Russia the right to subordinate Ukraine to its own perceived security interests. Where do you draw the line?

eklavya wrote:

Pratyush wrote:By giving Russia the breathing space they need.

Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a democratically elected government. The US will obviously not “give” Russia the right to subordinate Ukraine to its own perceived security interests. Where do you draw the line?

Did anyone "give" the US the right to invade Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Vietnam ..etc ?!!

kit wrote:

eklavya wrote:
Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a democratically elected government. The US will obviously not “give” Russia the right to subordinate Ukraine to its own perceived security interests. Where do you draw the line?

Did anyone "give" the US the right to invade Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, Vietnam ..etc ?!!

9/11 did give the US the right to invade Afghanistan and Pakistan. If they had done it properly in 2001, situation today would be a lot better.

But if you are suggesting that “might is right”, then Putin has badly miscalculated his own strengths. He will lead his country to ruin.

https://indianexpress.com/article/world ... d-7769122/

The United States is paying around $530 for each course of Paxlovid and $700 for each course of rival COVID-19 pill molnupiravir developed by Merck & Co.China has kept daily number of new COVID-19 patients with confirmed symptoms to below 250, and sometimes fewer than 10, in the past year.

Not related to Ukraine but just a news item that suggests China and the US are partners and not strategic competitors or enemies as the above article would imply. Driving Russia into China's arms seems to be straight out of the US-China global duopoly playbook that has been driving US china policy since 1978.

eklavya: Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a democratically elected government. The US will obviously not “give” Russia the right to subordinate Ukraine to its own perceived security interests. Where do you draw the line?

Ukraine is about as "democratic" as Georgia, which is to say not at all -- The Georgian shaakashvili was installed as the PM of Ukraine a few years ago and Shaakashvili is a known American stooge on US payroll.

Regardless, The question is where will Russia draw the line if the US continues with its warmongering and provoking a war -- Russia will have a limited war and create a buffer zone that keeps the Ukrainians busy, just like they stopped the war last time after taking over Crimea. The moral of the story is that if you have a conflict in your border, expect racist, ex-colonial powers to step in and create chaos to benefit themselves. US is just a warmongering power that is not the leader of the free world, even if they and their racist EU buddies pretend they are. If the EU wants to suborn its economic interests to play second fiddle to US warmongering, they are up for some very interesting times in the form of Economic distress and Internal political EU stress. When Germany has a bad winter with high gas prices, I would like to see the state of this budding US/EU relationship.

eklavya: But if you are suggesting that “might is right”, then Putin has badly miscalculated his own strengths. He will lead his country to ruin.

So Putin not wanting a unstable border is equal to "might is right" is it? So if China (or some Asian power) starts arming south american countries like Mexico with nukes down the line to challenge the US in its neighbourhood, they would be entirely within their rights then? And if the US responds to not let that happen, would that be "might is right"? Very logical. Makes total sense.

eklavya: 9/11 did give the US the right to invade Afghanistan and Pakistan. If they had done it properly in 2001, situation today would be a lot better.

So the US has a right invade any country they want whenever they feel their interests are threatened, but other countries doing the same is all wrong, eh? Such clarity.

srikandan wrote: Ukraine is about as "democratic" as Georgia, which is to say not at all -- The Georgian shaakashvili was installed as the PM of Ukraine a few years ago and Shaakashvili is a known American stooge on US

India recognises Volodymyr Zelensky as the democratically elected President of Ukraine:

https://www.mea.gov.in/press-releases.h ... of+ukraine

Telephone Conversation between Prime Minister and the President of Ukraine
August 01, 2019

Prime Minister had a telephonic conversation with the President of Ukraine H.E. Mr. Volodymyr Zelensky.

Prime Minister congratulated President Zelensky on his success in the Ukrainian Presidential elections and also extended felicitations for the victory of his ‘Servant of the People Party’ in the recently concluded Parliamentary elections.

President Zelensky congratulated the Prime Minister on assuming charge for a second term with a resounding mandate.

eklavya wrote:

srikandan wrote: Ukraine is about as "democratic" as Georgia, which is to say not at all -- The Georgian shaakashvili was installed as the PM of Ukraine a few years ago and Shaakashvili is a known American stooge on US

India recognises Volodymyr Zelensky as the democratically elected President of Ukraine:

https://www.mea.gov.in/press-releases.h ... of+ukraine

Telephone Conversation between Prime Minister and the President of Ukraine
August 01, 2019

Prime Minister had a telephonic conversation with the President of Ukraine H.E. Mr. Volodymyr Zelensky.

Prime Minister congratulated President Zelensky on his success in the Ukrainian Presidential elections and also extended felicitations for the victory of his ‘Servant of the People Party’ in the recently concluded Parliamentary elections.

President Zelensky congratulated the Prime Minister on assuming charge for a second term with a resounding mandate.

India has a general pragmatic policy of recognizing any government if it is in effective control of its country. (There are exceptions, like apartheid SA, Bangladesh government in exile in 1971etc.) Unlike US, India doesn’t treat recognition as a reward for being “good.”

Congratulating Zelensky on winning the election is just normal diplomatic courtesy, doesn’t need to be taken as India giving Ukraine a certificate of democracy. Again, it is not Indiann policy to sit in judgment over how other countries choose their leadership.

eklavya: India recognises Volodymyr Zelensky as the democratically elected President of Ukraine:

So? The US and the UK have been pretending Pakistan is a democracy for decades now, so it must be true, huh? The official stance of countries has nothing to do with the objective reality on the ground. If you are going to confuse India or some other country calling Ukraine a democracy as equivalent to Ukraine actually being a democracy, that's some pretty weak logic.

Ukraine right now is being forced to act against its own interests by rich and powerful predators like the USA, which pretty much says exactly what kind of a democracy it is. This is not the first time --- back in 2014, Ukraine gave up russian transit fees and discount heating gas in winter after being goaded by the same USA that is starting another war now. Ukraine is determine to go the way of Yugoslavia but that is what they want, innit. Russia may get poorer and weaker, but Ukraine will be a little rump state in a constant state of civil war, thanks to their "democratically elected leaders".

yensoy wrote:... return Crimea to Ukraine ...

Crimea is geostrategically important for Russia. Trump might have been talking to Putin on some deal. SDOTUS might have promised but now under Biden, they are backtracking. So Putin is backtracking on his promises as well.

srikandan wrote:

eklavya: India recognises Volodymyr Zelensky as the democratically elected President of Ukraine:

So? The US and the UK have been pretending Pakistan is a democracy for decades now, so it must be true, huh? The official stance of countries has nothing to do with the objective reality on the ground. If you are going to confuse India or some other country calling Ukraine a democracy as equivalent to Ukraine actually being a democracy, that's some pretty weak logic.

Ukraine right now is being forced to act against its own interests by rich and powerful predators like the USA, which pretty much says exactly what kind of a democracy it is. This is not the first time --- back in 2014, Ukraine gave up russian transit fees and discount heating gas in winter after being goaded by the same USA that is starting another war now. Ukraine is determine to go the way of Yugoslavia but that is what they want, innit. Russia may get poorer and weaker, but Ukraine will be a little rump state in a constant state of civil war, thanks to their "democratically elected leaders".

Quite right., Zelinsky is purely in his seat to drive the agenda of the Anglo saxon powers., i wonder whether he has any Ukrainian interests in his mind at all !! .. Goading his country men to fight against a country that has been a part of them is just right out of the British play book of divide and rule

KLNMurthy wrote: Again, it is not Indian policy to sit in judgment over how other countries choose their leadership.

Not sure I can agree with that statement. For example:

https://www.eoiukraine.gov.in/pdf/India ... %20May.pdf

India welcomes the successful conduct of the presidential elections in Ukraine and congratulates the Government and the friendly people of Ukraine, as well as President-elect Mr. Petro Poroshenko on his victory in the election.

India is a firm believer in the power of the expression of democratic will by the people.

India advocates democracy and considers Ukraine a democratic state.

https://twitter.com/KomissarWhipla/stat ... 7064571906

Russian MoD claims that today at 10:40 MSK a Virginia-class SSN was detected IN Russian territorial waters near Urup island (one of the Kurils), near the zoned of Pacific Fleet exercise. Marsh.Shaposhnikov frigate found it, communicated the demand to surface immediately.

UPD: US military attaché summoned to the Russian MoD. Territorial waters violation is kinda big deal, although there are nuances in the region.

So it is the season for American false flags.

eklavya wrote:

KLNMurthy wrote: Again, it is not Indian policy to sit in judgment over how other countries choose their leadership.

Not sure I can agree with that statement. For example:

https://www.eoiukraine.gov.in/pdf/India ... %20May.pdf

India welcomes the successful conduct of the presidential elections in Ukraine and congratulates the Government and the friendly people of Ukraine, as well as President-elect Mr. Petro Poroshenko on his victory in the election.

India is a firm believer in the power of the expression of democratic will by the people.

India advocates democracy and considers Ukraine a democratic state.

eklavya-ji,

India has never given this "will of the people" and "democracy" bhashan to the middle eastern thugs who have ruled the middle east for the last 75 years.

The unsaid rule is "we support democracy where there exists democracy" and "we support existing governments in control of the finances, natural resources, and armed forces" wherever democracy does not exist. Unlike the US, India does not cherry pick those whom it recognizes as legitimate.

US >> we recognize you as legit if we like you
India >> we recognize you as legit if you're in control

Media & Diplomatic statements are issued accordingly.

https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/statu ... 3364679689

Ukrainians who not native english speakers taking local processions in Kiev with all the banners in English. Prancing around for international media at the behest of the USA -- the ukrainians seem to be in self-destruct mode but with a gleam in their eye that they will become a NATO state once the war with Russia is over.

standard we-are-blameless-saviours-of-the-universe rhetoric from the racist US/EU scum: Pretty sure "Ukraine will be kept out of NATO" was not one of these so-called diplomatic efforts, because if it was, Russia will de-escalate.

On Friday, President Joe Biden held a phone call with 10 other trans-Atlantic leaders “to discuss our shared concerns about Russia’s continued buildup of military forces around Ukraine and continued coordination on both diplomacy and deterrence,” the White House said in a statement.

Among those scheduled to join Biden were President Ursula von der Leyen of the European Commission, European Council President Charles Michel, President Emmanuel Macron of France, Chancellor Olaf Scholz of Germany, NATO Secretary-General Jens Stoltenberg and Prime Minister Boris Johnson of Britain.

A wide range of diplomatic efforts to defuse the crisis have borne little fruit to date, amid growing signs Friday that the situation is deteriorating. Germany’s Foreign Minister Annalena Baerbock said that “we are not seeing de-escalation” by Russia despite multiple diplomatic overtures.

titash wrote: India has never given this "will of the people" and "democracy" bhashan to the middle eastern thugs who have ruled the middle east for the last 75 years.

Yes, India deals with the government in power. Realpolitik.

But, that does not dilute in any way India’s official statements after each of the last two Presidential elections in Ukraine. In each case, India welcomed the outcome of an unambiguously democratic process.

And India does openly advocate for democracy as a core political value.

https://www.mea.gov.in/Speeches-Stateme ... _Democracy

The democratic spirit is integral to our civilization ethos.

The India story has one clear message to the world. That democracy can deliver, that democracy has delivered, and that democracy will continue to deliver.

By working together, democracies can meet the aspirations of our citizens and celebrate the democratic spirit of humanity. India stands ready to join fellow democracies in this noble endeavor.

https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-roo ... obal-good/

The Leaders celebrated the deep and vibrant ties between the people of both nations, which underpins the special bond between the United States and India, and has sustained their partnership for nearly 75 years. They reaffirmed, and encouraged others to embrace, their shared values of freedom, democracy, universal human rights, tolerance and pluralism, and equal opportunities for all citizens, and committed to pursue efforts towards sustainable development and global peace and security.

Funny thing is that even Ukie president (including EU) is not taking the bait of imminent russ invasion, and you see the frustration it in the headlines. Top officials from Russia, Ukraine, France and Germany met over Minsk agreement, but the discussions did not make much progress.

(no need to click, headlines are enough)
(CNN) Ukrainians are wondering if their comedian-turned-president can handle the world stage

(TASS) Zelensky asks for proof of invasion of Ukraine allegedly planned for February 16

But, previous president, Petro Poroshenko, who is being investigated for treason, has been brought back from retirement in Spain to do something nasty. He probably still has good connections with mili, maidan types..

kit ji: Good to keep in mind they have the same playbook for India and China., countries you won't go to war with directly.

Exactly. Consider the chain reaction in the long term: destroy ukraine to weaken russia, so that reduces an ally for both India and China. If the US was to take on India, what would be the equivalent ofukraine...oh wait, that's pakistan and afghanisthan, easily replaced by other brand new set of democracies, courtesy of the genocidal, war-mongering vermin in the US state dept.

Realpolitik is practical politics. India recognizing govt.X, Y, or Z is just an acknowledgement of a foreign sovereign govt.without any judgement on the quality of democracy being followed by the govt. India's realpolitik is doing business with China, while being face-to-face with them in Galwan, not some random blurb from some web page that states the obvious.

eklavya wrote:Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a democratically elected government. The US will obviously not “give” Russia the right to subordinate Ukraine to its own perceived security interests.

This bit about a "democratically elected government" is a glib NATO talking point; it is obvious counter-factual fiction. The current Ukie "govt" is a follow-on to the group that came to power in a violent military coup that overthrew the previous govt, which was, in fact, democratically elected. I assume everyone here remembers the infamous telephone conversation of the thuggish Victoria Nuland that was tapped and released to the world.

Where do you draw the line?

This criminal Ukie govt. is waging psychological war against its Russian-speaking minorities (the people inhabiting the Donbas and Lugansk regions). Its not a stretch to say that if the shooting starts, the psychological war will quickly become a shooting war. So the operative question here is: where do you draw the line?

You say “counter factual fiction” and “criminal”.

This is what the Government of India said after the 2014 election.

https://www.eoiukraine.gov.in/pdf/India ... %20May.pdf

As the largest democracy in the world, India has recently seen a vibrant election where the people have voted a new Government with a clear mandate. The unambiguous mandate in Ukraine will hopefully provide a healing touch after the recent incidents of violence.

And the Government of India congratulated the current Ukraine government on their election after the 2019 election.

https://www.mea.gov.in/press-releases.h ... of+ukraine

Prime Minister congratulated President Zelensky on his success in the Ukrainian Presidential elections and also extended felicitations for the victory of his ‘Servant of the People Party’ in the recently concluded Parliamentary elections.

Should we believe you or the Government of India?

Back to harping on the content of some website are we? All of this information on what really happened and the response is to quote some diplomatic statement made by the Indian govt. as "proof" that reality is not what it is. Watching paint dry is more productive than engaging with this kind of cretinous nonsense. I guess that is what the mute button is for.

The linked websites are of the Ministry of External Affairs of the Government of India. They convey India’s official position. India has very friendly relations with the current democratically elected government of Ukraine:

https://www.mea.gov.in/press-releases.h ... glasgow+uk

Prime Minister Narendra Modi met the President of Ukraine H.E. Mr. Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the sidelines of COP26 in Glasgow on 2 November 2021.

The leaders took stock of the state of bilateral relations and exchanged views on developments in the region.

They expressed satisfaction on the cooperation during the pandemic times including mutual recognition of COVID vaccination certificates by both countries. Prime Minister Modi thanked President Zelenskyy for his humanitarian gesture of supply of oxygen concentrators to India during the second phase of COVID pandemic earlier this year.

The two leaders positively assessed the strong people to people connect between the two countries, especially the large number of Indian students studying in various Universities of Ukraine.

The two leaders reaffirmed their readiness to work together for further strengthening of bilateral relations.

Vayutuvan wrote:

yensoy wrote:... return Crimea to Ukraine ...

Crimea is geostrategically important for Russia. Trump might have been talking to Putin on some deal. SDOTUS might have promised but now under Biden, they are backtracking. So Putin is backtracking on his promises as well.

Makes sense. Regarding Crimea's return, it would only happen if the entire Ukraine were back in the "soviet" or Russian orbit in which case it would be a grand gesture. Or some kind of shared administration, with a poison pill written into the agreement allowing Russia to take over in case Ukraine returns to the western orbit.

Sebastopol is in Crimea and Russia is not getting out of there, unless they cease to exist as a country. Loss of sebastopol is a serious strategic loss for Russia, so there is zero chance of any such thing happening. If Russia is nervous about a NATO state on its borders, do we really think it will be comfortable with NATO controlling the larger of the two commercial/military ports.

Throughput of materials via the ocean is 1000 times more than overland transport like trains and trucks -- allowing a hostile power to obtain such a capability is suicidal for Russia, and they know it, as do the anglo-saxon scum.

eklavya wrote:The linked websites are of the Ministry of External Affairs of the Government of India. They convey India’s official position. India has very friendly relations with the current democratically elected government of Ukraine:

https://www.mea.gov.in/press-releases.h ... glasgow+uk

Prime Minister Narendra Modi met the President of Ukraine H.E. Mr. Volodymyr Zelenskyy on the sidelines of COP26 in Glasgow on 2 November 2021.

The leaders took stock of the state of bilateral relations and exchanged views on developments in the region.

They expressed satisfaction on the cooperation during the pandemic times including mutual recognition of COVID vaccination certificates by both countries. Prime Minister Modi thanked President Zelenskyy for his humanitarian gesture of supply of oxygen concentrators to India during the second phase of COVID pandemic earlier this year.

The two leaders positively assessed the strong people to people connect between the two countries, especially the large number of Indian students studying in various Universities of Ukraine.

The two leaders reaffirmed their readiness to work together for further strengthening of bilateral relations.

What are you trying to do here ? Geopolitics is a dynamic thing not set in stone.

A Russian invasion of Ukraine will be very harmful to Indian interests. The immediate very serious issue is the welfare of 20,000 Indian students and nationals in Ukraine. In the medium to long term, Russia turning into a heavily sanctioned country ensconced firmly in the Chinese orbit is deeply harmful to Indian interests.

https://pminewyork.gov.in/IndiaatUNSC?id=NDQ4Ng,,

More than twenty thousand Indian students and nationals live and study in different parts of Ukraine, including in its border areas. The well- being of Indian nationals is of priority to us.

Madam President, I reiterate our call for the peaceful resolution of the situation by sincere and sustained diplomatic efforts to ensure that concerns of all sides are resolved through constructive dialogue.

Perhaps eklavya is suggesting to stop all that India should invade russia. Please correct

^^^^
Russia is one of India’s oldest and best friends and a key strategic partner. We need to keep it that way. India should persuade Russia through dialogue to avoid going to war in the Ukraine. A heavily sanctioned and isolated Russia does not serve the interests of Russia or India. We need a powerful proud prosperous Russia that acts as a counter weight to CPC/PLA, not beholden to the CPC/PLA.

eklavya wrote:^^^^
Russia is one of India’s oldest and best friends and a key strategic partner. We need to keep it that way. India should persuade Russia through dialogue to avoid going to war in the Ukraine. A heavily sanctioned and isolated Russia does not serve the interests of Russia or India. We need a powerful proud prosperous Russia that acts as a counter weight to CPC/PLA, not beholden to the CPC/PLA.

Then the US needs to stop acting like a drunken elephant and think long and hard about everything it has done on Russian periphery over the last few decades.

Because in it's arrogance it has pushed Russia in bed with PRC. Just the outcome it needed to avoid. If it wants to win the coming war with PRC.

India dosent have a dog in this fight.

Russia should not be offended by India's overtures to US from now on. If Russia can have dialogues and partnerships with China and TSP, then India is also free to do so. Our partnership will become more transactional.

Dilbu wrote:Russia should not be offended by India's overtures to US from now on. If Russia can have dialogues and partnerships with China and TSP, then India is also free to do so. Our partnership will become more transactional.

As it should be.

India should be focused only on our interests.

However, when it comes to the US. We should distrust and verify and then distrust some more.

It is in India's interests that Russia isn't forced into Chinese camp. It is in India's interests that the West focuses on China as the primary adversary.

Therefore, it is in our interest to intervene in the Europe situation, to broker peace or keep the whole thing frozen for another generation - whatever.

We should do whatever we can, because Russia in Chinese camp will be a strategic setback for us. All parties, except US deep state (which is stirring the pot in Kazakhstan, Belarus in addition to UKR) and China would welcome some strategic freeze in Eastern Europe.

Srinji
Just like the CAR initiative for Republic Day, anything that NaMo can initiate something with Belarus/Lithuania/Latvia/Ukraine
What can we have post March elections in the national calendar??
Any celebration/birthday/125th anniversary??
How about the Indian Ruler who helped the Polish Kids during second world war I cant remember his name but there is square named after him.
Will be an emotive issue in Eastern Europe where they lost so many jews!!
Russia can also participate as its fight against fascism celebration
Could hit many targets both within and without our borders!!
And china and its munna especially wont be able to able to squeal.

Rsatchi wrote:Srinji
Just like the CAR initiative for Republic Day, anything that NaMo can initiate something with Belarus/Lithuania/Latvia/Ukraine
What can we have post March elections in the national calendar??
Any celebration/birthday/125th anniversary??
How about the Indian Ruler who helped the Polish Kids during second world war I cant remember his name but there is square named after him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digvijays ... hji_Jadeja

In 1942 he established the Polish Children's Camp in Jamnagar-Balachadi for refugee Polish children who were brought out of the USSR during World War II. It existed until 1945, when it was closed and the children were transferred to Valivade, a quarter of the city of Kolhapur.[5][6][7] The camp site today is part of 300 acre campus of the Sainik School, Balachadi.[8] The Jamsaheb Digvijay Singh Jadeja School in Warsaw was established to honour this legacy.[9] In 2016, 50 years after Jam Saheb's death, Poland's Parliament unanimously adopted a special resolution honouring Jam Saheb Digvijay Sinhji for his aid to Polish children refugees during World War II.[10][11]

A documentary titled "Little Poland in India" was made in collaboration of both Indian and Polish governments to honour the efforts of Maharaja Jam Sahib[12] and Kira Banasinska, who led the movement in India to rehabilitate Polish refugees

https://twitter.com/kenvogel/status/112 ... ine-shokin

The BIDENS are entangled in a Ukrainian corruption scandal:
@JoeBiden pushed Ukraine to fire a prosecutor seen as corrupt.
BUT the prosecutor had opened a case into a company that was paying HUNTER BIDEN.
The Bidens say they never discussed it.

https://www.hsgac.senate.gov/imo/media/ ... _FINAL.pdf


https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-hunter- ... 79660.html

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... can-report

Ukraine crisis: No breakthrough in Biden-Putin call

A phone call between US President Joe Biden and his Russian counterpart Vladimir Putin has failed to ease tensions over Ukraine. Meanwhile, Germany has joined other countries in telling its nationals to leave Ukraine.