Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[maitya]

Cat B Engine to Solve Tejas Mk1A issues

I think this video report is based on this ANI interview by HAL Chairman: HAL in talks with General Electric over delay in engines' delivery: DK Sunil

But nowhere it says how many airframes have been manufactured so far, and how may are now planned to be manufactured by Mar'25 - only some generic stmts like:

...
HAL Chairman and MD further stated that the latancy by GE does not affect HAL's manufacturing activities of the aircraft.

"We will build the aircraft; we will get them ready adn I'm sure we will be able to sort out this supply issue with General Electric," he added.
...

[ashishvikas]

Proud to announce the successful handover of the Air Intake Assembly to HAL’s Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Division! This milestone reaffirms LMW's dedication to India's self-reliance in aerospace with precision-engineered solutions. #LMW #MakeInIndia #AerospaceEngineering

https://x.com/lmwatc/status/18547339578 ... c-C8w&s=19

2 years back.

HAL’s LCA Tejas Division signed an MoU with Lakshmi Machine Works Limited (LMW) to manufacture 40 sets of Air Intake Assembly for LCA Tejas MK1A on October 19, 2022 during DefExpo 2022 at Gandhinagar.

https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/158297387 ... Vz7qg&s=19

[ramana]

You need 6-8 engines to fulfill Mk1A requirements. Instead of Cat B use Tejas Mk1 trainer engines and deliver trainers later. The trainers are any way not urgent but important.

[R Charan]

How HAL's "Engine-Agnostic" Approach Keeping Tejas Mk1A Production Line Humming Amidst GE Delays
https://defence.in/threads/how-hals-eng ... ays.11183/
10 Nov 2024

[VinodTK]

^^^^

14 Tejas Mk1A are assembled?

[srai]

^^^
There would be that many on the production/assembly lines at various stages of completion. Current assembly capacity is around 16 units with further expansion to 24 in the works.

[Kartik]

Grp Cpt HV Thakur with the first Tejas Mk1A, LA 5033



https://x.com/HALHQBLR/status/1856351032860913925

[srai]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1860484790455067040

The integration testing of homegrown actuators of Tejas has commenced at the national Iron Bird facility of HAL's Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) in Bengaluru. Sources aware of this development confirm to #WriteTake that the time and frequency domain to test the integrity of the digital flight control
computer (DFCC) with the flight control system (FCS) actuators, the flight control software
version of DFCC under test shall be certified by CEMILAC. This they say would pave way for the
developmental flight testing of the DFCC along with a pair of #elevon actuators on a LSP aircraft.

[ernest]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1860484790455067040

The integration testing of homegrown actuators of Tejas has commenced at the national Iron Bird facility of HAL's Aircraft Research and Design Centre (ARDC) in Bengaluru. Sources aware of this development confirm to #WriteTake that the time and frequency domain to test the integrity of the digital flight control
computer (DFCC) with the flight control system (FCS) actuators, the flight control software
version of DFCC under test shall be certified by CEMILAC. This they say would pave way for the
developmental flight testing of the DFCC along with a pair of #elevon actuators on a LSP aircraft.

In the thread quoted above AKM, also has raised questions on delayed integration of indigenous actuators in favor of Moog products. He even called for investigation into it, as he felt that was a clear sabotage of a domestic product.

https://x.com/writetake/status/1860489266649866524

"Initially there was a plan to fit in all 13 indigenous actuators (6 slat actuators, 2 airbrake
actuators, 4 elevon actuators and one rudder actuator) on to the first #LCAMk1A aircraft. But
somehow the developmental testing, type certification and production flight of primary
actuators had taken the backseat though these actuators outperform the Moog actuators on
various parameters and the cost of these actuators is almost one fourth as compared to the
imported ones," an HAL official at senior management level, now working with company HQ in Bengaluru, confirms.

What needs to be investigated is that how ADA and HAL proceeded with the imported primary
actuators on #LCAMk1A production aircraft when a better set of homegrown systems were available. At whose behest HAL & ADA folks pushed the videshi product on Tejas need to be investigated. Also what MoD babus, auditors and the so-called custodians of #AtmanirbharBharat were doing? Or this a classic case of everyone fooling everyone in the name of #MakeInIndia as often pointed out on these networks?

It is reported that Moog recently paid fines to SEC for bribing HAL. So, it is not hearsay that people in HAL undermined domestic products for illegal gains to promote a foreign equivalent. We should be pushing for an investigation to hold the guilty accountable and cleanup in HAL. I was a little sceptic of AKM report at first, but he stands vindicated.

https://www.dailypioneer.com/2024/page1 ... --ioc.html

The SEC order detailing bribery in HAL says in November 2021, Moog bagged $ 1,399,328 valued contract for parts and services related to the April 2021 contract tender. Investigation found that 2.5% commission was received as a bribe by “a HAL official.” As per the eight page order, Moog Inc paid more than 5,00,000 Dollars as bribe for getting contracts in HAL and Railways.

Though the number quoted is pretty small here, the whole list of orders to Moog cost upwards of 100Cr extra to the Indian taxpayer, per AKM. Heads should roll.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/writetake/status/1869267289930973502 ---> 4th paragraph, last line, in this story by Ajay, reproduced in quotes below.

"The MoD, which holds a majority stake in HAL, has assured the committee that steps were being taken to address the issue."

1. It will be great if @SpokespersonMoD /@rajnathsingh tell us what are steps being taken to restart LCA Mk1A deliveries.

2. Since the deliveries are not happening, what are the HAL folks linked to LCA/Tejas in their respective divisions doing now?

3. What will @IAF_MCC do, just in case these delays continue for a longer time? @PMOIndia?

4. Or is this delay part of a larger script to take Tejas out of the limelight, so that another plan can be pushed citing this mess?

5. Why is it that there's a complete silence on Tejas-linked activities now?

Who will give answers? Aren't we entitled to know? The tax-payers?

[bharathp]

this complete silence on mk1a is baffling! i fervently hope we dont kill the project!

[JTull]

GoI has put a lid on speculation especially GE engine related.

[Baikul]

…..Who will give answers? Aren't we entitled to know? The tax-payers?

I can now say that I have over three decades read again and again and again the exact same language in this article.

“Highlighting the urgency of the matter the committee stated”

“The order was expected to be delivered in…. But not a single jet has been delivered to date”

“The Mod has assured…that steps are being taken”

“The IAF has initiated the process …a formal request for proposals has been issued”

It’s the same language over and over and over and I confess I am weary to the depths.

[isubodh]

”

It’s the same language over and over and over and I confess I am weary to the depths.

The reason is simple, the only option they have is to wait for GE to deliver, there is no plan B and it never has been.

Developing option needs pre-work, scenario imagination, developing alternatives. It cost mind and money, they belive the contract they sign will deliver.
So you see same language same response, which is, "we have no clue what else can be done".

[fanne]

Hmm I thought plan A was raffle. How come it is GE engine now? What is consistent is there is no plan B.

[fanne]

Developing option needs pre-work, scenario imagination, developing alternatives. It cost mind and money, they belive the contract they sign will deliver.
So you see same language same response, which is, "we have no clue what else can be done".

If you read Indian Darshan or read any history, the sign of great military leader was never his valour or his willingness to die, or his mastery in weapon craft or having the best weapon, it was actually deep thinking, leading to whatever strategic + tactical clarity that was needed to win the war.
Deep thinking is actually way harder than back breaking manual work, most of us in life avoid both, and most high positioned people avoid deep thinking but good with hard work. Only visionaries or truly invested people do both. To say that current bunch of IAF officers are a fraction of the caliber of bb Lal or sagar Singh or Sam sir would be a stretch. They want only raffle.

[williams]

”

It’s the same language over and over and over and I confess I am weary to the depths.

The reason is simple, the only option they have is to wait for GE to deliver, there is no plan B and it never has been.

Developing option needs pre-work, scenario imagination, developing alternatives. It cost mind and money, they belive the contract they sign will deliver.
So you see same language same response, which is, "we have no clue what else can be done".

What else you can expect from a manufacturing unit like HAL? How can they plan for an alternative of something as complex as a jet engine? The issue is there is no strategic thinking on the people who are planning these acquisitions. I was glad at least whey tried to go make a contract to buy these engines from GE. In the past, people would have simply said there is no viable local alternatives and would have brought a foreign aircraft by now.

If we go for local manufacturing, you are bound to deal with these kind of issues. The big missing picture here is that, the moment Tejas program started to using GE engines. People stopped continued effort to work on improving the Kaveri engine. We had literally 2 decades to work further on it, but did not fund it seriously. Now what alternatives are we talking about?

[Baikul]

If it all comes down to the engine, that’s more decades of dependence and boilerplate language of delays in articles such as the one quoted above.

[srai]

^^^

1. import passand
2. emergency purchases
3. broucheritis specs
4. low R&D spending
5. unrealistic timelines
6. endless user trials
7. 13-step procurement bureaucracy (5-years min)
8. piecemeal orders
9. slow production scaling up
10. suspect production quality
11. lacking end user support
12. other hidden agendas

[sanjayc]

^^
13. Keeping world-class Indian private companies at an arm's length by pretending that there are only two options to buy arms: (i) OFB factories or (ii) foreign companies.

[TVenky]

^^
13. Keeping world-class Indian private companies at an arm's length by pretending that there are only two options to buy arms: (i) OFB factories or (ii) foreign companies.

^^
14. Pathologically corruption as norm.

[isubodh]

We had literally 2 decades to work further on it, but did not fund it seriously. Now what alternatives are we talking about?

There are options, if better program management is put in practice. It's not necessarily to have alternative engine, it could be simpler to start procuring the engine early if one had put a point that this is a risk item that is on critical path. Did anyone do a risk mitigation approach at the start of project.
It would have cost money upfront but would have saved a lot with airframe lying idle in want of engine.
Does IAF has a delay penalty clause ? Even it it had its one pocket of MoD paying the other and no ones increment or bonus at stake so why bother.

[Rakesh]

GE F404 engines delayed *AGAIN*

Deliveries which were to start in Nov 2024, have now been pushed to March 2025. See fourth column at the very top.

A full two year delay, from the MIC that is never exhausted.

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1871013778730750073 --->

[Manish_P]

^ The immortal ghosts of Sir Humphrey Appleby & the right Honorable James Hacker MP continue to haunt the corridors of power

[williams]

We had literally 2 decades to work further on it, but did not fund it seriously. Now what alternatives are we talking about?

There are options, if better program management is put in practice. It's not necessarily to have alternative engine, it could be simpler to start procuring the engine early if one had put a point that this is a risk item that is on critical path. Did anyone do a risk mitigation approach at the start of project.
It would have cost money upfront but would have saved a lot with airframe lying idle in want of engine.
Does IAF has a delay penalty clause ? Even it it had its one pocket of MoD paying the other and no ones increment or bonus at stake so why bother.

83 Tejas Mark 1A order was signed on Feb 2021. 99 F404 was ordered by HAL on Aug 2021. For a defence PSU who is only involved in fulfilling the order that is pretty reasonable. BTW Tejas SP1 was ordered in 2016. BTW Kaveri program was shutdown in 2014. And the good old MMRCA saga ended in 2015 when the 36 Rafales were ordered.

[A Deshmukh]

Silver linings in the dark clouds
- we should insist on full local production of all components of 414.
- stop all purchases from uncle, till engine delivery issues are sorted
- funding to Kaveri+ in billions must happen now

[Zynda]

I am getting Marut 2.0 vibes a lot lately. For a country which is supposed to be wary of US, we sure do have a lot of projects with them compared to others. With France, our relationship is more of a buyer-seller relationship rather than co-development and France is supposed to be a lot more reliable ally in the West. Almost same with Russia...for what it is worth, we have had good success with integrating Russian small turbines on Nirbhay & some UAVs and the consignment of engines arrived from Russia with no questions asked.

Each time I see a project with USA announced, especially in a sensitive domain, I wonder what our babus & engineers/scientific folks think. With scientific folks, I get that they (we) want the best & many of our children/cousins are in the West (US) & have flourished and people-people relationship have largely been cordial & even encouraging. Surely there are many bright people who can read beyond the lines...anyways OT for this thread.

[isubodh]

There are options, if better program management is put in practice. It's not necessarily to have alternative engine, it could be simpler to start procuring the engine early if one had put a point that this is a risk item that is on critical path. Did anyone do a risk mitigation approach at the start of project.
It would have cost money upfront but would have saved a lot with airframe lying idle in want of engine.
Does IAF has a delay penalty clause ? Even it it had its one pocket of MoD paying the other and no ones increment or bonus at stake so why bother.

83 Tejas Mark 1A order was signed on Feb 2021. 99 F404 was ordered by HAL on Aug 2021. For a defence PSU who is only involved in fulfilling the order that is pretty reasonable. BTW Tejas SP1 was ordered in 2016. BTW Kaveri program was shutdown in 2014. And the good old MMRCA saga ended in 2015 when the 36 Rafales were ordered.

Who put the delivery dates, what plan was that backed with or was that just back of napkin calculation.

[S_Madhukar]

Elevens purges seem to work better than our ek Goli ek Dushman and ek missile ek jahaj optimistic ideals This is the equivalent of a dog lying on its back inviting belly rubs.

[ashishvikas]

No mainstream media have reported USA is intentionally holding supplies of GE404s. [Infact, they have clarified it's supply chain issue].

[williams]

No mainstream media have reported USA is intentionally holding supplies of GE404s. [Infact, they have clarified it's supply chain issue].

IMO it is supply chain issue. However, it is a stark reminder that relying on Khan for critical defense equipment is always subject to issues. We need to wean out of such dependencies soon.

[maitya]

HAL to start trial of new Tejas fighter jet in January next year

...
“The upcoming Astra missile firing, the electronic warfare suite testing and the ongoing software updates on the new systems are the final processes before HAL can deliver the first LCA Mk-1A to the IAF, which wants the aircraft to be delivered with a certain capability. The project has been plagued by some delays, but HAL has the capability and capacity to catch-up in production once the F404 engines start coming in,” said one of the officials cited above.
...
...
“GE had stopped the F404 production line at Lynn in Massachusetts a few years ago. When they restarted that production line there were some issues related to the certification of parts and components. Those issues have been fixed. HAL officials also held talks with GE’s critical vendors earlier this month, and things seem to be on track now,” said a second official.
...

This is confusing ... except for the Astra (presumably Astra-II) firing, weren't the integration of external ASPJ (alongwith 2052) and the software updates, being done all along this year. Then why is there any further need of testing wrt these?

[basant]

Certification is for engine components sir, as I understand.

[hemant_sai]

only if there was enough common sense to keep the design and proto ready with russi engine AL-31,
today AL-51F1 engine (without afterburner) could be an option and it would have also act as pressure tactic on US.

These design mandates to keep all the restrictions to limit the possibilities and ensure complete dependence on US - certainly is planned and not a co-incidence.

I wish we get better DM instead of Rajnath Singh, who can read between the lines and who can look beyond 5 years. We need DM who need not spend time on election campaigns and focus on country's defence needs.

At least same should not be repeated for Tejas Mk2 and TEDBF. Efforts should be made to keep design and proto ready with russi option.

[pravula]

only if there was enough common sense to keep the design and proto ready with russi engine AL-31,
today AL-51F1 engine (without afterburner) could be an option and it would have also act as pressure tactic on US.

These design mandates to keep all the restrictions to limit the possibilities and ensure complete dependence on US - certainly is planned and not a co-incidence.

I wish we get better DM instead of Rajnath Singh, who can read between the lines and who can look beyond 5 years. We need DM who need not spend time on election campaigns and focus on country's defence needs.

At least same should not be repeated for Tejas Mk2 and TEDBF. Efforts should be made to keep design and proto ready with russi option.

Russian option would be RD-33. Al-31 is too big

[basant]

Why not SNECMA M53-P2? It's almost identical in performance wrt F414.

[Tanaji]

People talk of swapping engines is as trivial as swapping lego blocks or functions in software…

A fighter aircraft is essentially an engine that is flying - with some weapons stuck on to it. Changing an engine means:

Change in FADEC - which means the entire engine control software interface is changed and may result in rewriting of flight control laws
Engine size changes - even if they are roughly of same diameter, plumbing changes are still required which may cause shifts in CG which results in FC law changes
Engine weight - even if roughly same overall may cause CG changes
Changes to access, maintenance procedures etc


In short you are looking at a huge test campaign to validate the laws, and if using a Russian engine inferior servicing durations.

Engine changes should be looked at as an absolute last resort if GE point blank refuses an engine. The effort is more useful to get the Kaveri up to scratch…

[ashishvikas]

#EXCLUSIVE : During a visit of Indian officials to the United States, GE presented a proposal offering used F404-GE-102/103 engines for the production of the Tejas Mk1A as a stopgap solution. However, it remains unclear whether this offer was accepted.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1872 ... 1kjYw&s=19

[Baikul]

What does this mean stopgap? Is the extended extended timeline of March 2025 not viable either?

[maitya]

#EXCLUSIVE : During a visit of Indian officials to the United States, GE presented a proposal offering used F404-GE-102/103 engines for the production of the Tejas Mk1A as a stopgap solution. However, it remains unclear whether this offer was accepted.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1872 ... 1kjYw&s=19

Good proposal ... I hope we have accepted it.
Hard facts are:
1) We are stuck with F404 for the entire MK1A Program (83 + 99), and it's a TINA factor now.
There's no way any alternate engines can be thought of, for either of these two contracts, given the time-horizon available for these programs itself.

2) IMVHO, GE will take time to stabilize the promised 2 engines/mth delivery schedule - and it thus will further impact HAL's ability of 24/year delivery promise.
So these used F404-GE-102/103 will be able to tide over this issue and help HAL adhere to the promised delivery velocity, atleast in the next 1.5-2 years. It will also help IAF, to raise the sqns as planned (and thus retire the legacy 21s ASAP).
These used engines obviously will be later swapped out with the IN20 versions, when their production has been stabilised.

So, say ~36-40 (i.e. 1.5 years worth of engines) of these used 102/103 versions should suffice, if they can be delivered quickly (say within next 6-9 months), allowing HAL to stockpile them, and then focus on implementing the 24/year delivery schedule, unhindered.
Of course the new IN20s delivery needs to continue, even if its in trickle mode, in parallel.