India-US News and Discussion

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Oct 2009 04:25

harbans wrote:Coincidence of interests? Or do you think there's something more devious?

As NYtimes and WaPo are considered to voice liberal (read as Democratic) points, Washington Times and WSJ are considered to espouse the conservative (read as Republican) points.

Johann · Post by **Johann** » 30 Oct 2009 04:36

The Washington Post is not particularly partisan when covering foreign policy, intelligence and defence issues. It the closest to being the newspaper of the long-service institutional/professional class of the US government.

That makes it suspect for strongly ideological/partisan Americans, whether neoconservative or lefty.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Oct 2009 04:50

harbans wrote:Just by way of perspective, WSJ editorial policy has long been one of (a) demanding a tough line on China (while their business section is all cozy with outsourcing to China)

Strike 3: Most of us want that too, don't we? If not outsourcing at least we want trade relations to go on healthily?

Coincidence of interests? Or do you think there's something more devious?

Ramanaji/ Premji and you point out all a commonality of US and Indian thought/ interests for sure.

Lets hope its not a Psy-op for MMS, Indo China tentions suits many cold warriors running strategic institutions. There has been no significant positive sign from BO Admin , it might change after PM visit . PRC has strong lobby to derail any strategic engagement.

anishns · Post by **anishns** » 30 Oct 2009 07:09

^^^^

That articles generating a lot of love....

Here is what a Mr. Dan Rice has quoted in the comments section....

Glory to the largest democracy on the planet - India! The Indians will surely soon begin to teach Americans not only how to be tuff, but also how to be democratic. Indians will soon lead a battle in the world to fight against the largest evil empire on earth - communist and authoritarian China! As Americans won the cold war against the Soviets, we Indians will win another democratic war, either cold or hot, against China. We will be even greater than you Americans!

Please help us Americans, please stand by our side. We share the same value (democratic again), whatelse, we even share the same name with your native Indians. Oh please, come closer to us than to the Chinese. You see, we have more in common. Why do American presidents always visit China first? President Obama doesn't even have an agenda to visit the largest democracy in the world! What a shame! Don't forget, they are communists. I've got to remind you, the Chinese grapes are really sore! We Indians know that.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 30 Oct 2009 08:19

^ well if its causing takleef in some uber circles in the emerged world, we must be doing something right onlee...

Below, just for laughs

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 30 Oct 2009 09:04

People like Holbrook, Biden, Kerry, Halfbright and even Hillary Clinton have promoted a policy of containment of India. This is what they've learned through their many years of service in the US Government and it isn't going to change until they go away. Obama could care less, but he's quite clever and will spout off nice flattery which ignorant NRIs will buy off on. Even people on this forum are tickled pink the messiah lit a Diwali lamp.

For all of the short comings of the Bush administration, after Al Qolin Bin Powel (the general's general) was gone, Condi Rice and her team were pro India. It is a shame that they are gone.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 30 Oct 2009 11:15

http://www.upiasia.com/Security/2009/09 ... ower/9640/

Maritime India cruises to power

Militarily, India realized its potential as a naval power during the 1971 war with Pakistan, when its strategy to control the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal succeeded in ensuring victory in East Pakistan, which became Bangladesh. What struck military analysts was the impotence of the United States and China to come to the succor of Pakistan. Even the U.S. aircraft carrier USS Enterprise rapidly withdrew from the area after receiving intelligence of a kamikaze raid by the Indian Air Force in the Bay of Bengal.

Is this really true. First time I am hearing of this.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 30 Oct 2009 12:07

harbans wrote:Just by way of perspective, WSJ editorial policy has long been one of (a) demanding a tough line on China (while their business section is all cozy with outsourcing to China)

Strike 3: Most of us want that too, don't we? If not outsourcing at least we want trade relations to go on healthily?

Coincidence of interests? Or do you think there's something more devious?

Ramanaji/ Premji and you point out all a commonality of US and Indian thought/ interests for sure.

I wouldn't call it devious, nor would I deny that India inc. has a commonality of interest with the business side of WSJ. My point is that the political side of WSJ has its own viewpoint and agenda, and India is not the focus of it one way or the other. We can't think of them as particularly pro-India or pro-Tibet. If it suited their agenda to attack India on a different ocassion, they will.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 30 Oct 2009 12:29

csharma wrote:
Even the U.S. aircraft carrier USS Enterprise rapidly withdrew from the area after receiving intelligence of a kamikaze raid by the Indian Air Force in the Bay of Bengal.
Is this really true. First time I am hearing of this.

JND makes a case that there was backroom arm-twisting between FSU and US, and the quid pro quo for USS Enterprise withdrawing from BoB was that India would not attack West Pakistan and dismember it. I read somewhere that HK makes similar claims in his memoirs, but I have nt read his memoirs yet.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 30 Oct 2009 12:42

Stan, That's what I thought too. That's why I find it hard to believe the part about Kamikaze attacks.

On a related note, Adrian's Levy book on Pakistan's bomb mentions that India had told China that it would bomb some of China's nuclear installation if it took part in the war. Not likely that it was the only reason China stayed out of the war. FSU must have played a part.

uddu · Post by **uddu** » 30 Oct 2009 17:28

Wake up, America
A video about the threat to freedom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSjpNe1-Vc
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSjpNe1-Vc[/youtube]

Some has said of the clash of civilizations but it turns out that there is no clash of civilizations but the clash between Civilized world and the un-civilized world.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Oct 2009 18:37

Mort Walker wrote:Obama could care less, but he's quite clever and will spout off nice flattery which ignorant NRIs will buy off on. Even people on this forum are tickled pink the messiah lit a Diwali lamp.

If you don't lay off Obama, then certainly the discussion will veer towards the party politics of USA. You can make your points without using the Republican talking points or terms that are used to tarnish Obama.

I personally don't mind the language, but the discussions will just get rowdy and moderators will come flying around.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 30 Oct 2009 19:10

Swamy,

So now there are threats of verbal abuse if a BRF member criticizes the incumbent POTUS? I really don't care if anyone criticizes any POTUS past or present. We can go back to the mid/late 1950s Eisenhower administration, who's SoS was John Foster Dulles, that had a nasty attitude toward India & Indians. Eisenhower however talked all sorts of niceties and visited Nehru in 1959. It was that administration that setup U2 flights from TSP over the USSR from the late 1950s. The US was upset because India said no and Ayub Khan readily obliged. Or how about that cretin Nixon calling IG a b!tch on public record during cabinet meetings, to turn around and give her a grand Rose Garden reception?

Just because the Chosen one is your favorite doesn't buy anything on this forum. You and the others need to wake up and see the bigger picture of strategic policy towards India. By the way, I voted for Obama in 2008 and deeply regret it, I was advised by other well knowing NRIs to leave the selection blank (which is allowed on most all state ballots), and rather support those in Congress who would appear to be favorable toward India. I too have the blood of Indian children on my hands and will not repeat the mistake in 2012. Last night after reading BRF and seeing the terrorists plotting a strike in NOIDA/Gurgoan in the NCR sent shivers down my spine and I could see the faces of my nieces and nephews there.

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Oct 2009 20:16

Yoda of Wehrkunde speaks:

Manish Tiwari, Hindustan Times
New Delhi , October 30, 2009

China, US policies on Pak adversely impacting India: Brajesh Mishra

Former India ’s national security adviser Brajesh Mishra on Friday in New Delhi said the United States and China policies towards Pakistan were both having adverse impact on India.

“While China is supporting Pakistan military for reasons well known, India ’s friend, the US has also been pursuing policies for the past eight years that have the same adverse impact on India as China ’s policies on Pakistan ,” he said during the HT Summit in New Delhi.

Mishra raises serious concerns over change in China ’s attitude in the past two years towards the issue of Kashmir and its claims to disintegrate India.

Participating in the discussions on “lessons from Mumbai 26/11: security India against terror” organised by the Hindustan Times , the former national security adviser said India was up against unprecedented challenge being posed both on internal and external fronts and India would have to seriously focus on increasing its military strength to face the external aggressions.

“ India has fought many wars, but two fronts were never simultaneously alive in the past. But in the next five years, I will not rule out that possibility (with both China and Pakistan opening fronts against India ),” he warned. ……………….

Hindustan Times

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Oct 2009 20:52

The fawning culture of the Congress party seems to have well become so well ingrained in our Prime Minister it is now seeping out into the sphere of foreign policy.

In any event it is complete stupidity to suggest that a late dawning realization by the US that their whipping themselves into a state of righteous abstention regards engaging with India in commercial nuclear affairs would gain them anything but a loss in profits and jobs, has anything to do with great friendship.

PM Manmohan Singh hosts lunch for Bush, says he is a 'great friend' of India

Meanwhile a few days earlier this story appeared in the Telegraph suggesting the Obama Administration was suffering a case of heartburn because of the lunch invitation to former US President Bush:

Bush dinner tastes sour for Obama

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Oct 2009 21:13

arun wrote:Yoda of Wehrkunde speaks:

China, US policies on Pak adversely impacting India: Brajesh Mishra

This was going on for 35 years and so such statement had come before by anybody all these years

Nandu · Post by **Nandu** » 30 Oct 2009 21:30

[quote="Mort Walker"]

Just because the Chosen one is your favorite doesn't buy anything on this forum. You and the others need to wake up and see /quote]
Mort saar, the fact is, these are not attacks on Obama. These are attacks on his supporters.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 30 Oct 2009 21:32

Acharya wrote:
arun wrote:Yoda of Wehrkunde speaks:

China, US policies on Pak adversely impacting India: Brajesh Mishra
This was going on for 35 years and so such statement had come before by anybody all these years

Does the alleged N-dud have a role to play in this statement? Why should a two front war worry India in the presence of ample nukes?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Oct 2009 21:37

arun wrote:The fawning culture of the Congress party seems to have well become so well ingrained in our Prime Minister it is now seeping out into the sphere of foreign policy.

In any event it is complete stupidity to suggest that a late dawning realization by the US that their whipping themselves into a state of righteous abstention regards engaging with India in commercial nuclear affairs would gain them anything but a loss in profits and jobs, has anything to do with great friendship.

PM Manmohan Singh hosts lunch for Bush, says he is a 'great friend' of India

Meanwhile a few days earlier this story appeared in the Telegraph suggesting the Obama Administration was suffering a case of heartburn because of the lunch invitation to former US President Bush:

Bush dinner tastes sour for Obama

True that all these gyrations appear corny. However from these very reports it looks like MMS/UPA started the Bush feelers in April 2009, while Obama extended an invite in Oct, 2009? In between the SD was very much aware of the "feelers", Bush invite, etc.

There is a need for both sides to drop old stuff and get moving with what needs to be done.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Oct 2009 21:38

Mort saar:
>>So now there are threats of verbal abuse if a BRF member criticizes the incumbent POTUS?
I don't know what you mean, as I did not offer any threat. All I am saying is if we continue to post posts like what is posted in DailyKos or FreeRepublic, then we are just playing to partisan politics.

You are jumping around too much. "Chosen" one with a capital 'C'...ah I see. I don't care if you voted for Obama or McCain or whoever else, it matters little to me. As for me I am not even an US citizen, so I did not have to vote for anyone - so he is not my 'Chosen' one. He might be close to my liking. I don't consider myself liberal or conservative, I like viewpoints from both camps. Both these parties are 'orai kuttaiyil urrina mattaigal'. Even after Archan asked us to tone it down, you continue to use colorful language that just mongers fear.

"FreeRepublic" or "Fox News" type of comments will just cause needless angst. There is no guarantee that another BRFite will pick or not pick any bait. The issue is not criticism, the issue is choice of words. I do not object your criticisms, I merely point out that colorful language can have intended consequences.

Hey it is upto you, you are the master of your words

Peace.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Oct 2009 21:44

vera_k wrote:
Does the alleged N-dud have a role to play in this statement? Why should a two front war worry India in the presence of ample nukes?

It also means that there is no guarantee from the "superpower" which the Indian ruling elite mistakenly assured itself. As BK in his article says India cannot outsource its security to another country.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Oct 2009 21:50

Washington gasps at Hillary charm-el-shake offensive that leaves Islamabad stunned. It is more about US-Paki News and Discussion article, but what concerns Pakistan concerns us

pgbhat · Post by **pgbhat** » 30 Oct 2009 22:04

Acharya wrote: It also means that there is no guarantee from the "superpower" which the Indian ruling elite mistakenly assured itself. As BK in his article says India cannot outsource its security to another country.

Which Chellaney also alludes in his article.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Oct 2009 22:05

SwamyG wrote:Washington gasps at Hillary charm-el-shake offensive that leaves Islamabad stunned. It is more about US-Paki News and Discussion article, but what concerns Pakistan concerns us

Obama is Prez ............................... on US territory.

Well, .................. cannot blame her for speaking from the heart. Snakes are snakes, not ropes.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Oct 2009 22:24

^^^
Snakes = Hillory (sic) or Snakes = Pakis ?

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 30 Oct 2009 22:29

Mort Walker wrote: I too have the blood of Indian children on my hands and will not repeat the mistake in 2012. Last night after reading BRF and seeing the terrorists plotting a strike in NOIDA/Gurgoan in the NCR sent shivers down my spine and I could see the faces of my nieces and nephews there.

I did not make the mistake. I was berated by my spouse for not supporting but I can sleep peacefully everyday.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 30 Oct 2009 22:29

SwamyG wrote:^^^
Snakes = Hillory (sic) or Snakes = Pakis ?

Saanp ko Saanp larre to jehar kisko charre?

amdavadi · Post by **amdavadi** » 30 Oct 2009 22:33

i stayed away from all the hype created last year, first this & first that. After seeing all my extended family falling for"the one",
it made me think it was just too good to be true deal.

A_Gupta · Post by **A_Gupta** » 30 Oct 2009 23:04

Alleged spy Nozette and India

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 30 Oct 2009 23:11

Acharya,

You are wise indeed.

Swamy,

BRadmins asked not to use abusive language toward other members. I did not use a derogatory or abusive term. Sarcasm yes. Others have directly called me worse.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Oct 2009 23:39

Acharya wrote:
Mort Walker wrote: I too have the blood of Indian children on my hands and will not repeat the mistake in 2012. Last night after reading BRF and seeing the terrorists plotting a strike in NOIDA/Gurgoan in the NCR sent shivers down my spine and I could see the faces of my nieces and nephews there.
I did not make the mistake. I was berated by my spouse for not supporting but I can sleep peacefully everyday.

Extrapolating that.....we should not even be living in America,no? Let alone be citizens of it?

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Oct 2009 23:43

Ouch.. Swamy garu you are

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 30 Oct 2009 23:51

^^^^
Jis tali me khaye usime ched

. Did I get that right?

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 31 Oct 2009 00:43

Swamy,

Now you're implying if we don't support the messiah, then we're disloyal? Wah wah!

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 31 Oct 2009 02:59

SwamyG wrote:
Extrapolating that.....we should not even be living in America,no? Let alone be citizens of it?

I detect anger in your reply. Calm down. Find out how many were independent and how many voted for third parties in US elections. It is a sizable number. Do you want them to get out.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 31 Oct 2009 03:06

Mort:
Only your fertile imagination can lead you to such a conclusion. This 'blood in your hands' kind of comments are quite distasteful and flame baiting if not fear mongering. As I did not vote it does not even apply to me, but such attitude on BRF is just going to further divide folks. We have Congress vs BJP arguments played out directly or indirectly in so many threads. Calling MMS different names have caused angst. Folks have been reprimanded.

This holier than thou attitude towards BRFites who have voted differently than what you voted is ridiculous. Well we all have the rights to hold ridiculous thoughts, but expressing those thoughts using partisan phrases routinely is not going to lead to good discussions.

Is is fine to criticize and argue with each other. I once again, say I did not vote as I am not a US citizen, but insinuating blood on other people's hand just because they voted differently should be curtailed in BRF. It is just plain not healthy. I do not object to criticisms of my favorite (as you put it earlier), it is the tone, attitude and words that are used for other BRFites. You call Obma $%$$%$$$, I don't care as I can ignore you. I hope you see the nuance and what I am trying to differentiate.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 31 Oct 2009 03:14

Acharya wrote:
SwamyG wrote:
Extrapolating that.....we should not even be living in America,no? Let alone be citizens of it?
I detect anger in your reply. Calm down. Find out how many were independent and how many voted for third parties in US elections. It is a sizable number. Do you want them to get out.

Acharya: For once I can say you are wrong. No, I am not at all angry at you

))))))) I have stated my beliefs so many time, I consider both those parties as parties coming from the same system. They consider American interests. Period. I think it is upto Indian parties and leaders to consider Indian interests.

So I don't care how or for whom people voted. What I dislike is terms used towards people who chose differently. IMVHO, this kind of attitude is a straight lift from American partisan politics.

Manny · Post by **Manny** » 31 Oct 2009 04:10

I have a low opinion of desies who vote and cheerlead Oshama and other democrats!

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 31 Oct 2009 04:22

^^^^
I was so waiting for your opinion.

You made my day.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 31 Oct 2009 05:56

SwamyG,

It is no "holier than thou" attitude. This forum is quite informative and has the pulse on many critical issues that affects India. When you look at the strategic calculus laid out, the issue becomes quite apparent, we in BRF have the benefit of this new clear vision (pun intended), and US policy toward India is dissected for what it is. That policy transcends political parties. All of us were hoping that this policy would be relegated to the dust bin of history when Obama was elected. We thought he was new leader bringing in new ideas, but like all politicians, he had consolidate his political power by not upsetting those influential individuals who establish and maintain US policy toward India. We are sorely disappointed and you can see the rumblings in the DoS when Hillary Clinton told TSP that they should know where the AlQ leadership is?

By referencing Obama as the messiah or the Chosen one is strictly sarcasm. Insults are used by the loony Republicans on other forums and I think you've seen them, so no need to repeat. It is a very mistaken analogy to compare the insults to MMS to the master thespian. Again, they are not vulgar, racially or religiously oriented. You are being far too sensitive and if you can ignore me, then why do you care as I've laid out much of the history of India-US relations?