Should we discontinue EVMs?

[Rahul Mehta]

.

The judges, as expected, are siding with EVMs. Most HCjs etc have started throwing fines of Rs 5000 to Rs 10000 on complainers, and with a tone that fines would increase. I was right on one thing - it is useless and waste of time to complain before judges. If EVMs are actually rigged, the HCjs and SCjs will be last person to oppose it. What I fear more is : some SCj may actually appoint a committee of crooks to look into issue, they will take ONLY untempered EVMs as "randomly chosen ones" and then certify that all EVMs are good. This wont do any damage as such, as most commons no longer have an iota of faith in SCjs and crooks they appoint in committees (eg SIT in charge of investigating Telgi took bribes and let Sharad Pawar walk away). But such EVM examination committee will surely waste a lot of time.

================

Dileep,

Re : hacking and not giving EVMs to public

There is no such thing as "qualified" hacker. There are many unknowns who hacked in banks' computers and even Govt computers which were certified by "experts" as secure. The hacking is 100% un-institutionalized profession or hobby. Only way to get "good" hacker is to leave the item in public for anyone who wants for the cost price and let them hack in their own way. Also, if you oppose giving out EVMs to public and source code, then blame or credit for such bad or good decision is on YOU. There is no point in blaming me or "people like RM" for secrecy you support. And if EVMs are not given to public for cost price, this only proves that there is indeed something fishy. And if you chose to support EC's decision of not giving EVM to public, you are only helping EC/BEL with retaining such fishy EVMs. I have PUBLICLY said in the "Election Thread" on BR that any EVM should be given to any candidate after the counting for cost, right in the counting room. And I would add source code to that demand. After all, if a candidate suspects that a given EVM at a given booth was radio enabled, whats wrong in giving him that EVM for cost price? What harm can it do if EVM does not have radio capability or rigged binary?

In ballot box, there is 100% transparency. The ballot box is visibly empty when poll starts and is showed to ALL the polling agents. In case of EVMs, the PCB and binary of the specific EVMs in the booth is invisible to all and who knows what garbage lies in that PCB or binary. How do I know that EVM in my booth did not have radio capability? Because I have to trust your "processes" and that Hitachi CEO?

I dont know if you at all interact with (sic) commons. I do. They dismissed my "artificial skin" scenario. Good. And they really laugh when I say that there are people who claim that Hitachi will never put a rigged binary in chip. And this includes people with B Tech and 4 years of hands on experience in PCB design, embedded coding etc. Pls trying talking to some (sic) commons and see how much of Process Bhakti and Hitachi Bhakti they have.

==============

Much of the debate is now appears to be over. The Process Bhagats and Hitachi Bhagats claims that a different binary will never get into chip and that not even 10% of CUs can be replaced with RF enabled CU. So all 100% EVMs were "paak" and will always be "paak". The realists (like myself) aka conspiracists believe that for a price, Hitachi CEO will ensure that rigged binary do get into the chip and for a price, BEL CEO will ensure that does a genuine check on those say 50% altered chips. And with tempered binary and some small adjustments in DC's office (no bribery, just some maneuvering) , Congress can add many many seats in its tally.

And then about investigation in near future. The Process Bhagats are also all SCj Bhagat and claim that SCjs will appoint honest investigators who will actually take a random sample and investigate them honestly. And here too, realists (like myself) aka conspiracists disagree - that SCjs will only appoint confirmed crooks who will pick only good EVMs.

So most tech issues are closed. The paper vs EVM answer depends on one's beliefs in processes, Hitachi CEO, BEL CEO and SCjs.

======

Some technical issue that are open :

1. Are their technologies which make ROM reading impossible? For the time being, I will will accept that "ROM reading is always possible"

2. How much extra circuit, as a % of total circuit on chip, is needed to decrypt and run an encrypted binary in the ROM? The processor is RISC processor and has lot of space. After all, if someone makes a pin compatible version of 8051 today, he can implement all the 8051 functions with less than 10% of space available and has lots of room to add more gates.

3. Did BEL do a gate level analysis to ensure that there are no extra gates on chip?

etc etc

But these tech issues are only relevant if we at all get a Special Investigating Team, which is not a Special Cover-up Team.

======

Some questions asked to me are unanswered and I will answer them later.

.

[Rahul Mehta]

Maybe the EC should move the court against RM's advertisement (they have taken note of it, as mentioned in their PR) and force him to testify.

They are welcome to file a case in Ahmedabad.

If they file it elsewhere, it is just harassment and nothing else. eg a guy printed survey against judges corruption in New Delhi, and a JK court threw contempt case on him !! His survey did not cover JK and the guy had never been to JK in past 10 years. As if there is no competent court in Delhi to take this case.

I had sent them my PDF as reply to the email. I did not go there, and know time as proved that I was better off in not wasting my time there. "Prove that EVM cant be rigged, and I wont let you even touch the EVM" is the main argument of EC and which sadly "experts" like Dileep, Raja Bose, Tanaji support !! These experts have all the time to curse me, but cant make appeal to EC to give EVM to ANYONE who wants for Rs 10000. Their lack of making such appeal shows that they really dont have much faith in un-temperability of EVMs.

eg PGP people have put the whole logic and code in public and challenged people to break the encryption. And people have failed except few stray cases, where they had to use 1000s of computers for months. Now thats what I call as robustness.

----

Raja Bose,

The reply to email shows that unless EVMs are given to public, the claims of un-temperability are bogus. To that, I add : EVMs are given to public, there is no value to your claims that EVMs are not rigged in factory and that PCB is not RF enabled.

The email reply is going against YOUR stand that EVMs must not be given to public, in case you notice.

[Dileep]

I guess Rahul Mehta took the pill (or didn't take it, as the case may be). The above two posts are much better than the previous ones.

Since you claim that technical issues are closed, let me try to make a closing statement (like the notorious joint statements after indo-paki meets)

Code: Select all

It has been shown that the only two possible (the probability being disputed) ways to rig the machines are:

1. Modification of the controller IC at the time of fabrication by malicious action by the semiconductor company, with the help of BEL executives and design engineers. The rigging is activated using the mod-5 scheme explained elsewhere.

OR

2. Fabrication of an alternate PCB assembly (not a modification of an existing PCB assembly), along with either replacement of the said assembly in an existing EVM box, or creating an identical replacement EVM using the said assembly. The rigging is activated by radio control from outside the warehouse.

Does RM and Pranav agree to this statement?

[Rahul Mehta]

Let me ask you this? Have you, in your infinite wisdom, ever contested that the Indian EVM could be 'field hacked'? ie, hacked without inserting or replacing something in the hardware? To be precise, work with an existing good EVM, without opening it.

If so, please do that NOW. Because that is what goes around everywhere, including Stephen's hack. If you can't, drop that issue here itself.

EVM made as per spec described cannot be "field" hacked. But isn't that true for nearly all electronics item? eg If I buy a calculator from shop, I cant temper it to say 2 + 2 = 5. I can break into to pieces but cant make it say 2 + 2 = 5, but cant temper it. But if I own a factory, I can make a calculator that says 2 + 2 = 5.

Also, a new version of EVM (not part of existing discussion) which is used in local election has a port to connect external memory. Given that it has a port, it may be possible to rig it in the way US hackers did. So though it is OST, it very much applies to Indian as a whole.

==========

Re : Joint statement

I agree with it, but for the time being I would request you to drop the word "only" in first line. I see these two ways as "only" ways for the time being. But we dont know what magic BEL has inserted in the original PCB. So I can comment further only after I am given a randomly chosen EVM and I run it thru PCB tracker.

=======

Attn All Folks,

Does anyone have Indiresan Expert Committee review report in text or PDF form? The only link I found is http://www.scribd.com/doc/6794194/Exper ... ort-on-EVM which is in bitmap form and cant be used for copy paste. And copy-paste is needed to discuss the points this report makes


1. Indiresan Expert Committee repeatedly uses OTP ROM while you say masked ROM. A common may make such error, but it seems unlikely that Indiresan would refer to masked ROM as OTP. So we need clarification on this.

2. Indiresan report also says that chips have unique ID. Now you say masked ROMs cant have UID.

3. Paragraph (b) on page-4 says that replaced CU will become "inoperative", that too because of UID. I dont get it. How can replaced CU become inoperative? One may open and figure out that it is not the same CU. But why cant replaced CU function?

=====

A good read

http://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache:pq ... clnk&gl=in

[Raja Bose]

There is no such thing as "qualified" hacker. There are many unknowns who hacked in banks' computers and even Govt computers which were certified by "experts" as secure. The hacking is 100% un-institutionalized profession or hobby.

Actually there is. They are known as security consultants. I don't know how many hackers you know or have interacted with but I have to do so as part of my job.

I dont know if you at all interact with (sic) commons. I do. They dismissed my "artificial skin" scenario. Good. And they really laugh when I say that there are people who claim that Hitachi will never put a rigged binary in chip. And this includes people with B Tech and 4 years of hands on experience in PCB design, embedded coding etc. Pls trying talking to some (sic) commons and see how much of Process Bhakti and Hitachi Bhakti they have.

And I really laugh when people claim that CIA is not behind every natural disaster in India. And your point is? BTW degrees and years of experience doesn't count for anything unless it is done in the right area (i.e. relevant experience) - there are plenty of people who have 10 years of experience in software but dont know how to write a KMP matcher.

3. Did BEL do a gate level analysis to ensure that there are no extra gates on chip?

Finally a relevant question from RM without his over-the-top histrionics. Why don't you use one of your famous ads and ask BEL/ECIL? If they don't, this will spur them to do so!

[Raja Bose]

These experts have all the time to curse me, but cant make appeal to EC to give EVM to ANYONE who wants for Rs 10000. Their lack of making such appeal shows that they really dont have much faith in un-temperability of EVMs.

As usual back to playing with words, are we? My simply premise is, if you make the allegations YOU do the legwork in collecting the proof - don't expect to sit like a nawab while others bring you evidence (or lack thereof) on a platter. I have already seen how intellectually lazy you are (despite an IIT education, no less) hence, you can go rant to people who fall for your words.

The reply to email shows that unless EVMs are given to public, the claims of un-temperability are bogus.

Really? Please quote from the email where it says so. I marvel at your ability to twist words to suit your allegations. The email simply says that for hacking the EVM, 1 week is not enough and they needed full access to the src and hw. It doesn't imply (except by your twisted logic) that unless they are given to the public, they have been compromised. I personally have NO issues with the real EVM being provided to the public however, I do have an issue when someone like you tries to mislead the commons just on the basis of some slick allegations which have not been proven (and in most cases are bogus to people working in the relevant domain).

To that, I add : EVMs are given to public, there is no value to your claims that EVMs are not rigged in factory and that PCB is not RF enabled.

As usual some Lahori Logic on display - Just because YOU make some fantastic allegation does not make it true. The issue of EVM being given to the public is a separate issue and has absolutely nothing to do with your efforts at scaremongering the commons. I personally have NO issues with EVM being provided to the public however, I do have an issue when someone like you tries to mislead the commons just on the basis of some slick allegations which have not been proven (and in most cases are bogus to people working in the relevant domain). Heck, if the BEL/ECIL actually provide EVMs for a cost, I will buy one to take a look inside. It should not be too hard to reverse engineer.

Take out an ad (or hold a meeting or whatever it is you do to get hold of commons) and publicly ask the EC why they cannot provide EVMs to public for a cost? Why do they want to be so secretive? There is a difference between tough questions and wild allegations - please try to learn that difference.

The email reply is going against YOUR stand that EVMs must not be given to public, in case you notice.

Please quote from any of my posts where I state that EVMs should not be given to the public. Don't confuse "giving EVMs" with "you publicly passing off your allegations as the gospel truth". I have stated time and again that the devil is in the details and when someone like you tries to pass on slick allegations as facts without an iota of proof - it is misleading the commons. Don't run away now - I know you are good at hurling allegations and try to put people on the defensive (so that they can overlook whatever craziness you are spouting) but when time comes to put your money where your mouth is, you downhill ski faster than the Northern Light Infantry!

BTW I am still waiting for your answer to my question re. your video camera and stamping machine system.

[Raja Bose]

Also, a new version of EVM (not part of existing discussion) which is used in local election has a port to connect external memory. Given that it has a port, it may be possible to rig it in the way US hackers did. So though it is OST, it very much applies to Indian as a whole.

The biggest problem with such kind of hacks is that it has to be done machine-by-machine, manually.

[Raja Bose]

Giving the EVMs to the public will solve one purpose. It will shut up those bogus scamsters who can only shout allegations but have no idea how to prove them. Doodh ka doodh, paani-ka-paani in more ways than one!

[sanjaychoudhry]

Expert: EC silent on EVM tampering
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 879003.cms

PMK, EC agree for joint inspection of EVMs
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 887706.cms

EVM expose: Is electronic 'rigging' subverting electoral mandate?
http://www.organiser.org/dynamic/module ... 04&page=28

The debate over the unreliability of the EVM that raged over the last two months is reaching a crescendo as many new facts come to light, even as Election Commission officials continue to carp ad nauseam that the EVMs used by the Election Commission are infallible, without any substantive proof, whatsoever.

On the other hand, there is now enough verifiable and circumstantial evidence to show that there is something amiss about the EVMs. The true story of the EVMs is beginning to unfold and it would be a tragedy if the political parties do not get to the bottom of the truth about these allegations and apprehensions. The poll panel is betraying signs of nervousness as it has no convincing explanations to a number of emerging concerns and the political parties owe it to the millions of the voting public to investigate and arrive at proper conclusions to show that their votes have not been robbed by unscrupulous individuals and to restore the public faith in our voting system.

Shocking verdicts
As someone who has analysed and predicted many parliamentary and assembly elections in the past, let me add a new perspective to the raging EVM debate. The only two parliamentary elections where the pollsters in general have gone horribly wrong in India’s parliamentary history are the Lok Sabha elections of 2009 and 2004. Consider this fact these are the only two national elections that were totally electronic.

In stark contrast, the Lok Sabha election results of 1991, 1996 and 1999 which were manual could be accurately predicted by most pollsters. For instance, my own Lok Sabha predictions for the Times of India and Doordarshan for all these elections were bang on target. (See box for these predictions and actual results).

That brings up the relevant question: Has the voter mood in the Lok Sabha elections that we were able to gauge very accurately until 1999 become so complex after the Election Commission made them totally electronic employing the EVMs?

Poll predictions vs. Actual results
* Polls by G.V.L. Narasimha Rao for Times of India/Doordarshan

Interestingly, we could accurately predict various assembly elections (held using EVMs) held between 2004 and 2009 general elections including the elections of Uttar Pradesh, Gujarat, Karnataka, Madhya Pradesh and Delhi. How is it that the same electronic voting machines turned in voting results that we could capture accurately in assembly polls, but not in national elections?

Is it the case that these voting machines per se are reliable when they are properly handled (which explains why there were no problems in assembly elections), but have been tampered with in the Lok Sabha polls producing startling results both in 2004 and 2009?

Lest the cynics argue that my theory of “electronic rigging” in national elections based on this circumstantial evidence is a figment of my imagination and rubbish it on the promise that the BJP would not have performed creditably well in states like Bihar and Chhattisgarh in 2009 general elections if that were the case, let me substantiate my claims with some pertinent information and questions.

EC owes explanation
The Election Commission is less than truthful in claiming that the EVMs deployed in general elections are tamperproof, when its own technical committee led by Prof. P.V. Indiresan held otherwise. The Expert Committee in its September, 2006 report (points 3.6 and 3.7) recommended that the old EVMs should be upgraded with suggested modifications, testing and operating precautions to make them tamper proof.

Shockingly, of the 13.78 lakh EVMs deployed in the 2009 Lok Sabha polls, only 4.48 Lakh are either new or upgraded machines, while as many as 9.3 Lakh EVMs (or over 2/3rd of all EVMs) deployed are old machines. The Commission has furnished this information in reply to a RTI query dated July 21 to V Venkateswara Rao, the main petitioner who filed a PIL in the Supreme Court on the issue. (Copy of the ECI reply enclosed)

New, improved EVMs were deployed in the states of Bihar, Chhattisgarh, Gujarat, Uttar Pradesh, West Bengal, and some UT’s and all north eastern states except Assam. In all others states, old EVMs, which do not meet the technical specifications, were used.

Why is it that these new, improved machines were not deployed in any of the key Congress-United Progressive Alliance (UPA) ruled states? Who were the persons responsible in making these decisions and what was the rationale in making the choice of states with the new, improved EVMs?

Curiously, while many states seem to have been selected following some alphabetical sequence, the UPA ruled states like Andhra Pradesh, Assam, Haryana, Maharastra and Tamil Nadu (which fall in the same sequence) have been left out systematically.

Naturally, the following questions arise and the EC is duty bound to answer them satisfactorily. What considerations guided the deployment of the old EVMs, more susceptible to tampering in all the states ruled by the ruling combine at the Centre? Why all the EVMs were not upgraded or replaced as recommended by the Expert Committee? Isn’t the Commissions guilty of misleading the political parties and the public opinion that it’s EVMs are tamper proof when it is fully aware of their limitations and shortcomings? All these serious questions warrant convincing answers from the Commission.

Latest statements from Commission officials reveal that they themselves seem to entertain doubts about the functioning of the old EVMs deployed in Lok Sabha elections. The Commission officials now say that only new, improved and ‘certified’ EVMs will be deployed for by-polls due shortly in Tamil Nadu where the opposition parties led by the AIADMK have decided to boycott by-elections. Does it not amount to admission of guilt that the old EVMs used in the Lok Sabha polls in Tamil Nadu were not reliable and prone to tampering?

‘Stand alone’ EVMs
Election Commisison officials have time and again argued that the EVMs cannot be tampered as they are stand alone machines without being part of any network and are not based on operating systems as the EVMs used elsewhere in the world.

That is an erroneous argument. The stand alone EVMs can be hacked on a selective basis; in any state, constituency or polling station of one’s choosing. Granted, this cannot happen without tampering with the individual EVMs deployed for election duty at some stage of their handling in the manufacture or election operations. That brings up the relevant question as to who can actually be involved in tampering.

It may be difficult or even impossible to influence lakhs of government functionaries deployed for election duty to tamper all the EVMs. But, it appears that there are a number of private players involved in gaining access to the EVMs at various stages, starting from their manufacture to their operations and maintenance at various stages of elections. Evidently, they are a huge potential security hazard.

Role of private players
Election Commission officials now claim that the EVMs are tamper proof and this confidence stems merely from the certificates of authenticity given by their manufacturers namely the ECIL and BEL, both in the public sector. Is that a valid ground for unbridled optimism about their tamper proof reliability? Is there any way that the officers on election duty or political party representatives to verify that these EVMs are indeed not tampered with? The answer is a no.

In addition to the manufacturers, there are a number of private players and individuals who are engaged in handling these machines at several crucial stages. There is not much information available on who these people are, who hires them, what duties they perform, what process is adopted to hire them and what are the terms of their engagement?

Preliminary enquiries show that they include chip manufacturers, service maintenance staff, manpower suppliers, outsourcing agencies, transporters of EVMs etc., who have unlimited access to the EVMs. What prevents them from tampering with the EVMs at some stage of election operations? In some states, we found reports suggesting that the maintenance and EVM handling work has been done by people belonging to the ruling parties. Does that not give ample scope to these parties to manipulate these machines?

A few authorised, unscrupulous elements gaining access to the machines can play havoc with them. No one would even get a hint of such manipulation as most officials are completely ignorant of the technology manipulation possibilities. Experts allege that these manipulations are so simple and devious that these could be done even without any knowledge on the part of the operational staff engaged in such manipulations who will mistake these activities to be part of the operational procedures.

EC operations in mystery
The biggest problem is that all the operations of the Election Commission of India are shrouded in mystery and there is a veil of secrecy that surrounds them, while as a public institution; it is expected to function in a transparent manner. India’s democracy cannot be held hostage to the whims and fancies of a few high ranking and well meaning officials of the Election Commission who would like us to simply believe that under their watchful supervision, nothing can go wrong.

Most senior officials of the Election Commission and those engaged in the polling process at various levels seem blissfully unaware of the manipulation possibilities of the EVMs. Worse, ECI officials see any doubts raised against EVMs as attacks on their personal integrity.

But, in a country where the election commissioners are appointed owing to their known political affiliations and former election commissioners are rewarded with positions and ministerial berths for ‘services’ rendered, doubts are bound to be raised about their impartiality. It is the duty of the Commission to reveal all facts to show that it has little to hide.

The Election Commission has the responsibility to initiate a national debate to discuss all issues threadbare. In stead of addressing valid concerns, it has been asking everyone to prove that their EVMs are tamper prone. Granted, no tampering can be done without physically manipulating it. Experts are challenging that the EVMs used in the elections can be tampered if one has physical access to them and the commission is not willing to take the challenge. The Commission perhaps wants the petitioners to perform some magic skills in manipulating their machines without gaining any physical access.

In the wake of serious concerns and the emerging potential possibilities for manipulation at various stages, it is the onerous duty of the poll panel to demonstrate basis for their oft repeated claims that their EVMs cannot be tampered with and not anyone else. The Commission should take voluntary steps in promoting a healthy debate and remove all hurdles to restore public faith in a system that has been junked by most western democracies rather than attempt to muzzle all opposition by making unsustainable claims.

Political parties must demand accountability
Most political parties now suspect that something has wrong but appear woefully short in understanding the rigging possibilities of electronic voting machines. Most of them have nagging doubts about the tampering of the EVMs, but have not raised these concerns in an open manner for fear of retribution and ridicule. The Supreme Court in its order in disposing the writ petition on EVMs had stated last month that the issue raised are of vital concern and the political parties may approach the Commission to clarify their doubts about the EVMs.

At stake is not just the fate of the political parties but the sanctity of our electoral process and the essence of our democracy. Parties must vociferously raise their concerns in public domain and in Parliament and ensure that the poll panel is held accountable to the millions of its electorate and conduct future elections in a manner that enhances the confidence of the electorate and that of the political parties in their outcomes.

(The author is a leading political analyst and a member of the BJP. Views expressed here are his own.)

- - Forecast Actual
1996 BJP+ 188 189
- Congress+ 142 132
- Others 212 215
1998 BJP+ 252 252
- Congress+ 140 147
- Others 145 138
1999 BJP+ 287 298
- Congress+ 174 135
- Others 77 105

[sanjaychoudhry]

It will shut up those bogus scamsters who can only shout allegations

Or it will shut up cocky idiots who are blind to the obvious.

[Raja Bose]

I just noticed that EVM thread in the Tech forum! The almighty adminullahs have heard my prayers If Steven responds I will provide him the link (poor fella might get scared though by the amount of rhetoric thrown around here ). There are two guys from BlackHat who had asked for updates on whether RM was able to hack the EVM or not - I will provide them this link also though I doubt they will openly participate.

[Raja Bose]

It will shut up those bogus scamsters who can only shout allegations

Or it will shut up cocky idiots who are blind to the obvious.

The only thing obvious in science is: Nothing is obvious unless it is proved. Or perhaps you prefer conspiracies to facts since they are much easier to fit to your delusions? Like I have repeated umpteen times on this thread - the question of whether the EVM can be subverted or not has to be decided in a neutral scientific manner, and NOT by emotional debate (or as some people would prefer, claims of obviousness) period.

[sanjaychoudhry]

The only two parliamentary elections where the pollsters in general have gone horribly wrong in India’s parliamentary history are the Lok Sabha elections of 2009 and 2004. Consider this fact these are the only two national elections that were totally electronic.

I have now come to the conclusion that the "shock defeat" of NDA in 2004 and the "shock victory" of UPA in 2009, both are result of EVM fixing. These "election shocks" where pollsters go horribly wrong with predictions are nothing but results of shocks administered by EVMs and Chawla-type bueracrats.

It is strange to see again and again election results that are so against the national mood and predictions of pollsters. For example, in Uttarkhand, Congress "swept" all five lok sabha seats, but in state bypolls held a mere 15 days later in the same area, the Congress candidate came third!!

Congress has cheated Indians in 2004 and 2005 and is an illegal usurper of political power. its regime is illegal. If EVM tampering is proved by a committe that has representation of all political parties, Chawla belongs in jail for committing treason. It should also be investigated why congress was determined to plant Chawla in EC against stiff opposition if he could provide the party with no benefit at all.

I also have a feeling that the Congress courtiers are allying with a Western intelligence agency (anglo saxons) to keep Hindu nationalists out of power. Keeping the BJP out of power suits the objectives of both perfectly. it is the Mir Jafar and Jai Chand story all over again.

[Dileep]

.
The judges, as expected, are siding with EVMs. Most HCjs etc have started throwing fines of Rs 5000 to Rs 10000 on complainers, and with a tone that fines would increase. I was right on one thing - it is useless and waste of time to complain before judges. If EVMs are actually rigged, the HCjs and SCjs will be last person to oppose it. What I fear more is : some SCj may actually appoint a committee of crooks to look into issue, they will take ONLY untempered EVMs as "randomly chosen ones" and then certify that all EVMs are good. This wont do any damage as such, as most commons no longer have an iota of faith in SCjs and crooks they appoint in committees (eg SIT in charge of investigating Telgi took bribes and let Sharad Pawar walk away). But such EVM examination committee will surely waste a lot of time.

Well, I have no comment on that. I support an expert committee nominated by all major parties, not one nominated by the SC.

There is no such thing as "qualified" hacker. There are many unknowns who hacked in banks' computers and even Govt computers which were certified by "experts" as secure. The hacking is 100% un-institutionalized profession or hobby. Only way to get "good" hacker is to leave the item in public for anyone who wants for the cost price and let them hack in their own way.

Well, at least someone otherwise qualified to hack. We have a saying in my language, of which the approximate translation is "like the dog who got an unopened coconut". An EVM unit with an unqualified person will be just like that.

Also, if you oppose giving out EVMs to public and source code, then blame or credit for such bad or good decision is on YOU. There is no point in blaming me or "people like RM" for secrecy you support.

That is Lahori Logic. Do you mean to say that an outcry of "sell-out" won't happen? I am sure YOU will do that, all your posts here notwithstanding.

And if EVMs are not given to public for cost price, this only proves that there is indeed something fishy.

So are so many other things, like Electricity meters, or some time ago, Telephone receivers. Are they fishy? Would you demand the blocks that print the currency be made public?

And if you chose to support EC's decision of not giving EVM to public, you are only helping EC/BEL with retaining such fishy EVMs.

No. I am helping avoid a baseless and damaging agitation. You are being your normal self of dishonesty here. The agitation will help your cause, so you are supporting it.

I have PUBLICLY said in the "Election Thread" on BR that any EVM should be given to any candidate after the counting for cost, right in the counting room. And I would add source code to that demand.

What does that supposed to mean? You are some special gift to the polity of India? You claim to be a commoner, but EVERY BIT of you SCREAMS elitist!! You have said and demanded many things, mostly stupid and ridiculous ones, on BR.

Those means NOTHING. Not worth the photons that display them

After all, if a candidate suspects that a given EVM at a given booth was radio enabled, whats wrong in giving him that EVM for cost price? What harm can it do if EVM does not have radio capability or rigged binary?

Sure. By that token, there is no end to the demands.

In ballot box, there is 100% transparency. The ballot box is visibly empty when poll starts and is showed to ALL the polling agents. In case of EVMs, the PCB and binary of the specific EVMs in the booth is invisible to all and who knows what garbage lies in that PCB or binary. How do I know that EVM in my booth did not have radio capability? Because I have to trust your "processes" and that Hitachi CEO?

Still, ballot stuffing and booth capturing happened. What good is the "transparency" when that happens? IT is not transparency that helps. It is reliable system that helps.

I dont know if you at all interact with (sic) commons. I do.

Oh, sure you do. Let me see the logic.

1. RM is a commoner.
2. Someone who is as rich (1CR assets), as influential (son of a neta), as illogical, irrational, dishonest, self centred (read BR for proof) is a commoner.
3. RM meets guy 2, regularly. So, he meets commons.

OTOH, I am the son of a half starving village farmer. I did my education entirely on govt help, at a college in the nearby town. I was dirt poor till I completed BTech and got a job, and that is the reason why I am just a BTech. I married the daughter of a school teacher and a govt servant, who live on their pension. Most of my relatives are in that social level or less.

Of course I happened to do good at my job, had a stint in USA and returned. That didn't make me wealthy either. I live in a village'ish area outside the city, in the middle of lower middle class folk, and interacting with them. My ancestral village folk are real working class people, and I interact with them too. I have friends among the grass root level party workers, and local netas, in both Congress and CPM.

And YOU, the elitist Rahul, the Mehta, ask ME the question!!

They dismissed my "artificial skin" scenario. Good. And they really laugh when I say that there are people who claim that Hitachi will never put a rigged binary in chip. And this includes people with B Tech and 4 years of hands on experience in PCB design, embedded coding etc. Pls trying talking to some (sic) commons and see how much of Process Bhakti and Hitachi Bhakti they have.

Well, the BTech folk here would agree that it is impossible to do what you claim. There is no point in asking the non-technical people about it, because they do not have the required knowledge to comment on that.

Anyway, I am going to ask some of the real commoners, like the maid, the rubber tapper etc whether they trust the EVM or not. I will post the honest answer here. I might also ask the netas I know If I get a chance.

1. Are their technologies which make ROM reading impossible? For the time being, I will will accept that "ROM reading is always possible"

It is your call to bring in the proof if you disagree.

2. How much extra circuit, as a % of total circuit on chip, is needed to decrypt and run an encrypted binary in the ROM? The processor is RISC processor and has lot of space. After all, if someone makes a pin compatible version of 8051 today, he can implement all the 8051 functions with less than 10% of space available and has lots of room to add more gates.

It doesn't matter which manufacturing technology do you use. The additional circuitry will be a % increase in the original circuitry. The chip NEVER has vacant areas. If you use a smaller feature technology, the whole circuit shrinks, that that itself shows that it is not the same.

Remember, your contention is that someone can "sneak in" the circuit without chance of detection. Any change in the fab technology will immediately make it visible. Your only chance is to keep the rest of the circuitry and layout EXACTLY the same, and add the new circuitry "somewhere".

This is impossible.

3. Did BEL do a gate level analysis to ensure that there are no extra gates on chip?

[/quote]
Good question. You lost the chance to ask it at the EC meet. Maybe you can take out another AD and ask it publicly.

[Dileep]

I had sent them my PDF as reply to the email. I did not go there, and know time as proved that I was better off in not wasting my time there. "Prove that EVM cant be rigged, and I wont let you even touch the EVM" is the main argument of EC

The EC has given 100 EVMs there. Still you say no access!!

and which sadly "experts" like Dileep, Raja Bose, Tanaji support !! These experts have all the time to curse me, but cant make appeal to EC to give EVM to ANYONE who wants for Rs 10000. Their lack of making such appeal shows that they really dont have much faith in un-temperability of EVMs.

I have no business in making "appeals" to EC or anyone. I don't hold 'vakalath' for for EC or anyone else either.

As a voter citizen, I trust the EVM. I cast my vote on one, and would look forward to more. From that angle, I have no horse in the race. It is the EC's problem to provide me a means of vote that I trust.

As a technical expert (YES, I claim expertise in what I do), I am here to fight unreal and bogus allegations, that is designed to hoodwink the public. I don't want technical jargons, and words twisting to create falsehoods that bolster the ulterior motives of netas like you. That is the ONLY interest I have.

eg PGP people have put the whole logic and code in public and challenged people to break the encryption. And people have failed except few stray cases, where they had to use 1000s of computers for months. Now thats what I call as robustness.

No comparison. No one would jump up and down howling "sell-out" on the PGP release.

[Dileep]

EVM made as per spec described cannot be "field" hacked.

Thank you for that statement.

Also, a new version of EVM (not part of existing discussion) which is used in local election has a port to connect external memory. Given that it has a port, it may be possible to rig it in the way US hackers did. So though it is OST, it very much applies to Indian as a whole.

I don't like that idea myself, and I will oppose the use of that technology in the govt elections.

I agree with it, but for the time being I would request you to drop the word "only" in first line.

The "only" is there because your claim that the technical discussion is over. It shall stay.

Thanks for agreeing the statement.

Does anyone have Indiresan Expert Committee review report in text or PDF form? The only link I found is http://www.scribd.com/doc/6794194/Exper ... ort-on-EVM which is in bitmap form and cant be used for copy paste. And copy-paste is needed to discuss the points this report makes

I have the image PDF only.

1. Indiresan Expert Committee repeatedly uses OTP ROM while you say masked ROM. A common may make such error, but it seems unlikely that Indiresan would refer to masked ROM as OTP. So we need clarification on this.

I have seen the term OTP being used for masked rom in some 'semi technical' documents on the web. Still, I believe this point could be clarified. You could have asked that if you have visited EC.

2. Indiresan report also says that chips have unique ID. Now you say masked ROMs cant have UID.

The UID is for the type of chip, not for individual chips. ALL chips made for BEL using certain mask will have the same UID. When the mask changes the UID changes too. This UID is checked in the software, the verify that it is indeed executing on the correct chip. That is all.

3. Paragraph (b) on page-4 says that replaced CU will become "inoperative", that too because of UID. I dont get it. How can replaced CU become inoperative? One may open and figure out that it is not the same CU. But why cant replaced CU function?

Read the paragraph first. It says, controller from some other source will not work on the CU board,because of the UID.

It is no deterrent for your schemes, because you allege that the controllers come from Hitachi itself.

[Pranav]

All in all a good discussion. Thanks to Dileep, Tanaji, Sanku and Raja Bose for their participation in the pro-EVM camp.

I would not be surprised if some political parties actually remunerate people for defending EVMs, but I won't make any allegations here.

Let us see what changes can be achieved on the ground in the real world. Ultimately, the people's voice is supreme. Unfortunately, commoners are too often like directionless sheep, easily swayed by what they see on the idiot box and read in the trash magazines. But time to time the commoners do awake, as was proved by MK Gandhi.

I will not be checking this thread regularly in the future, but will be around off-and-on on other threads.

[Pranav]

Those who are against EVMs, please send email to pranav.BRF AT gmail DOT com . It would be good to start a mailing list, keep in touch.

[Rahul Mehta]

BR-Rakshaks aka Admins,

"EVM vs Paper" is a 100% political topic - to be decided by us commons (or "experts"/SCjs alone in some people's opinions) and not a technical issue. It is NOT a technical issue as EVMs are not open for examination unlike EVMs in US.

So in the name of technology, pro-EVM can ONLY make claims about process, integrity of Hitachi and thus claim that EVMs are as per spec and thus EVMs are secure. Of course, if EVM were to be as per specification, they would be secure. The EBM-phobic people have such as myself never doubted the specification. But the whole debate is that EVMs are most likely not as per specification, but they are something else. So IMO debate is NOT technical at all.

Now I dont mind your putting this thread in ET forum. But I am worried that when political aspects are brought in, self appointed Topic Rakshaks will use "this is ET forum" to crush the political aspects of this topic.

Also, IMO GD should be made open to public.

=============================

Any device that is not open to public for examination is "secure", as no one can ever make a hack of EVM. And EC did not "give" 100 EVMs in the Aug-03 meet. They had just put 100 EVMs on display, none was allowed to open and examine its PCB or chips. And there is NO proof that EVMs were chosen at random. The EVM-phobic did not claim that all EVMs are riggable. We EVM-phobics claim that only about 10% to 20% are tempered. Also, the US prof's email clearly says that one MUST be given EVMs, and then it would take him weeks and months to make a hack. EC is asking people to hack EVMs in right in the room. Even an illiterates understands that EVMs cant be hacked without opening and touching. The whole show shows that EC consists of dishonest people least interested in knowing if EVMs are hackable.

Also, US prof could make a hack because the processor was publicly known. Here, it is ASIC. So if the part or whole of the trojan is in the ASIC, then one will need to scan the ASIC at gate level and decode microcode by looking at gates. This is next to impossible for any hacker. One can understand binary with extreme pain, but understanding logic from gate layout is far far more complex than that.

So only way to ensure is that EVMs used in booth are as per spec is

1. to allow the private players to buy EVMs they pick after right after counting for Rs 10000/-, 2. make chip design public
3. make source code public and
4. make binary public.

Anything less, and EC gets trivially easy ways to have tempered EVMs instead of what is on the spec. And those who insist that EVMs should not be given to any private player, source and chip layout must not be made public etc are only helping EC in ensuring that they can make fishy EVMs and get away. They noble intentions in keeping everything secret is only supporting the crooks in EC.

=====

Dileep,

The paper booths were rigged NOT because of paper, but because of absence of camera and because judges dont punish criminal. And when someone stamps 10s of paper, he becomes visible. EVMs too can be captured by pressing buttons every 20 seconds, and no one will notice. So paper are better, because capturing at least gets noticed.

And I see that you repeatedly ignore the word "camera" and also ignore the words "electro-mechanical stamp with counter and built-in 20 sec delay" and go around bashing paper ballots. So once again, can you explain how paper with camera and stamp can be rigged at large scale? In EVM, I have shown how using modulo-5 EVMs can be rigged.

.

[Raja Bose]

Also, US prof could make a hack because the processor was publicly known. Here, it is ASIC. So if the part or whole of the trojan is in the ASIC, then one will need to scan the ASIC at gate level and decode microcode by looking at gates. This is next to impossible for any hacker.

Actually in the e-mail he states that the EVM hardware is custom made - quite possible that the processor is not off-the-shelf. ASICs are regularly scanned at gate level by hardware hackers - read the book I suggested to you by Andrew Huang.

1. to allow the private players to buy EVMs they pick after right after counting for Rs 10000/-, 2. make chip design public
3. make source code public and
4. make binary public.

All perfectly fine as long as you and your supporters dont start jumping and yelling that EC has sold nation's secrets to CIA by publishing the specs. I dont think chip design needs to be made public (commercial IC design usually always has trade secret and patent issues) but making the hardware available is good enough.

And I see that you repeatedly ignore the word "camera" and also ignore the words "electro-mechanical stamp with counter and built-in 20 sec delay" and go around bashing paper ballots. So once again, can you explain how paper with camera and stamp can be rigged at large scale? In EVM, I have shown how using modulo-5 EVMs can be rigged.

It can be rigged in the same way you claim EVM can be rigged - with hardware modifications. I have already asked you that question (donning the RM #2 role) but you have ignored it.

[Rahul Mehta]

I gave one modulo-5 logic by which Congress can rig the poll.

Here is one more logic by which Congress can rig polls

Once again, trick is to ask Hitachi to send chips with 3 different types of programs

1. Honest code
2. Code will increase votes of second highest person in upper 5 candidates
3. Code will increase votes of third highest highest person in upper 5 candidates

All Chawala has to ensure is that one Constituency has only one type of EVM.

Now in many seats, there are ONLY 2 players, Congress and BJP and Congress knows that BJP will win. In such seats, they can send EVM of type-2. The EVM will record all the votes and then increase the votes of candidate who got second highest number of votes i.e. Congress candidates. And so Congress will win.

Now in pro-Congress seats, Chawala will send all honest EVMs and so loss will be minimal. But in all pro BJP seats or places where Congress is almost guaranteed to be no.2, it can send EVM type-2 and ensure a victory is many of these cases. And in seats where Congress is very likely to be number 3, Congress can send EVM of type-3 and increase the chances of victory. The result is not 100% guaranteed, but can increase seats by 100-150 if such EVMs are sent in 400 seats with proper pre-poll estimates.

Here NO fixing in DC office is needed.

Now pro-EVM people have interesting counter-argument. You wont get chip design. You wont get binary. You wont get source code. You wont get PCB design. You cant touch EVM. You cant open EVM. You will be thrown into prison if you steal one EVM and prove that above code exists in EVM. Now, prove that above logic is inside EVM !!

[Tanaji]

All in all a good discussion. Thanks to Dileep, Tanaji, Sanku and Raja Bose for their participation in the pro-EVM camp.

I would not be surprised if some political parties actually remunerate people for defending EVMs, but I won't make any allegations here.

Let us see what changes can be achieved on the ground in the real world. Ultimately, the people's voice is supreme. Unfortunately, commoners are too often like directionless sheep, easily swayed by what they see on the idiot box and read in the trash magazines. But time to time the commoners do awake, as was proved by MK Gandhi.

I will not be checking this thread regularly in the future, but will be around off-and-on on other threads.

Please do note that being pro EVM is based purely on available evidence at this point and the EVMs in their current form. I am not comfortable with the new technologies that EC is planning to roll out in the near future such as totalizers and the new memory interface that will be available. Given the closed and secretive nature of EC, it is difficult to find more about it as of now. Who knows, if totalizer is used and EC refuses to provide any information about it, or show what preventive measures it undertakes to prevent totalizer subversion, our worst dreams may come true.

May that day never arrive.

[Tanaji]

The only two parliamentary elections where the pollsters in general have gone horribly wrong in India’s parliamentary history are the Lok Sabha elections of 2009 and 2004. Consider this fact these are the only two national elections that were totally electronic.

I have now come to the conclusion that the "shock defeat" of NDA in 2004 and the "shock victory" of UPA in 2009, both are result of EVM fixing. These "election shocks" where pollsters go horribly wrong with predictions are nothing but results of shocks administered by EVMs and Chawla-type bueracrats.

It is strange to see again and again election results that are so against the national mood and predictions of pollsters. For example, in Uttarkhand, Congress "swept" all five lok sabha seats, but in state bypolls held a mere 15 days later in the same area, the Congress candidate came third!!

Congress has cheated Indians in 2004 and 2005 and is an illegal usurper of political power. its regime is illegal. If EVM tampering is proved by a committe that has representation of all political parties, Chawla belongs in jail for committing treason. It should also be investigated why congress was determined to plant Chawla in EC against stiff opposition if he could provide the party with no benefit at all.

I also have a feeling that the Congress courtiers are allying with a Western intelligence agency (anglo saxons) to keep Hindu nationalists out of power. Keeping the BJP out of power suits the objectives of both perfectly. it is the Mir Jafar and Jai Chand story all over again.

Quoting for posterity.

Of course its a small matter that

• No proof exists for what you claim, not even the proverbial "smoking gun".
• The bit that you have quoted is by a card carrying member of the BJP. His article is so one sided, that it is hardly evidence.

Wouldn't it be better for BJP if they spent their time actually analyzing why the people did not vote for them rather than spending time on dubious conspiracy theories?

[Raja Bose]

Now pro-EVM people have interesting counter-argument. You wont get chip design. You wont get binary. You wont get source code. You wont get PCB design. You cant touch EVM. You cant open EVM. You will be thrown into prison if you steal one EVM and prove that above code exists in EVM. Now, prove that above logic is inside EVM !!

RM, did anybody ever teach you not to lie? I guess not. Please quote actual portions from any of the posts which say the above. BTW I have asked you to quote from my/others posts which states your any of your claimed "pro-EVM people's arguments" yet till now you have NOT provided EVEN ONE such quote. Only goes to prove your dishonesty and skill at rabble rousing (get elected to the Parliament at least), nothing else. Now you know why I pushed for this thread to be put in the Tech forum - so that all the commons can see what cheap tricks you indulge in.

[vera_k]

The unfortunate conclusion that I have come to is that the EVMs are not secure. This is based on the Election Commission's reliance on what I can only say is security through obscurity in the presence of challenges over many years. It is not as if the design of the EVM is a trade secret given that the government owns the producer and is the largest consumer, so it's hard to understand what they are trying to protect.

It does not logically follow that scammers have taken advantage of the EVMs or that the three Chief Election Commissioners are aware of any way that scammers have taken advantage of the EVMs.

[Raja Bose]

I gave one modulo-5 logic by which Congress can rig the poll.

Here is one more logic by which Congress can rig polls

Once again, trick is to ask Hitachi to send chips with 3 different types of programs

1. Honest code
2. Code will increase votes of second highest person in upper 5 candidates
3. Code will increase votes of third highest highest person in upper 5 candidates
....
....
....

Logic is not equivalent to execution - surely they teach you this in Computer Science (I won't know since my Bachelors in not in Computer Science/Engineering).

BTW I am still waiting for your statistics re. 99% commons agree that EVM can/is rigged. Please provide them asap otherwise we will just chalk it up as another instance of your lying.

[Raja Bose]

The unfortunate conclusion that I have come to is that the EVMs are not secure. This is based on the Election Commission's reliance on what I can only say is security through obscurity in the presence of challenges over many years. It is not as if the design of the EVM is a trade secret given that the government owns the producer and is the largest consumer, so it's hard to understand what they are trying to protect.

It does not logically follow that scammers have taken advantage of the EVMs or that the three Chief Election Commissioners are aware of any way that scammers have taken advantage of the EVMs.

I think we can all agree that providing the EVMs to the public will indeed help decide the debate to some extent at least (as long as folks like RM doesn't jump boat to the other side and conveniently start claiming EVM specs should have been kept secret all along! ). At the very least it will shut up those people who can only make tall claims of alleged security loopholes but have no proof/ability to prove and it will encourage also those people who actually have valid hacks to come forward and make their proofs public - no system is 100% secure, security is an evolving thing and such disclosures will help in a big way.

[Rahul Mehta]

I think we can all agree that providing the EVMs to the public will indeed help decide the debate to some extent at least (as long as folks like RM doesn't jump boat to the other side and conveniently start claiming EVM specs should have been kept secret all along! ). At the very least it will shut up those people who can only make tall claims of alleged security loopholes but have no proof/ability to prove and it will encourage also those people who actually have valid hacks to come forward and make their proofs public - no system is 100% secure, security is an evolving thing and such disclosures will help in a big way.

I have proposed a procedure by which any citizen can pay Rs 20 per page and put his affidavit on the PM's website.

If you can convince PM to sign this proposal, I will happily put my affidavit demanding

1. The candidates should be given ANY EVMs he wants for Rs 10000 right in the counting room or later

2. The ASIC design should be made public along with gate layout and VLSI code (in VHDL ?)

3. The source code should be made public

4. The binary should be made public etc etc

Now once I enter the above affidavit, it will become public with date-stamp and I cant retract. Will that suffice?

Now what is "RM like elements"? I cant their guarantee what they may or may not do. And btw, by supporting my YES/No proposal, you too have lately become "RM-like elements" .

[Raja Bose]

I have proposed a procedure by which any citizen can pay Rs 20 per page and put his affidavit on the PM's website.

You are the neta and rabble rouser - why don't you try. Content to sit and let others do the leg-work, are we?

If you can convince PM to sign this proposal, I will happily put my affidavit demanding
Now what is "RM like elements"? I cant their guarantee what they may or may not do. And btw, by supporting my YES/No proposal, you too have lately become "RM-like elements" .

Displaying shades of megalomania are we? - Rahul Mehta is not India and India is not Rahul Mehta Your Yes/No proposal cry is just another of your rabble rousing attempts to gain some portion of the commons attention span. Similar to well-worn Paki tactics where they claim the death of Al-Keeda #3 everytime they need USA's attention!

RM-like elements (noun): People who piously claim to toil for the commons, when in reality all they are doing is advancing their own vested interests and hoodwinking the commons by preying on the commons fears and vanity.

[Muppalla]

RM-like elements (noun): People who piously claim to toil for the commons, when in reality all they are doing is advancing their own vested interests and hoodwinking the commons by preying on the commons fears and vanity.

RB- you brought out a perfect definition. 99% of NGOs and NGO supported political outfits like Loksatta belong to this category. I hate to say this but in reality illiterate or corrupt politicians are far better than these elements.

RM - Don't pounce on me as I am referring to the definition and I am neutral to classifying you that way.

[Dileep]

All in all a good discussion. Thanks to Dileep, Tanaji, Sanku and Raja Bose for their participation in the pro-EVM camp.

Oh, you are welcome.

I would not be surprised if some political parties actually remunerate people for defending EVMs, but I won't make any allegations here.

Hmm, now I know that you are another neta, just like RM.

Let us see what changes can be achieved on the ground in the real world. Ultimately, the people's voice is supreme. Unfortunately, commoners are too often like directionless sheep, easily swayed by what they see on the idiot box and read in the trash magazines. But time to time the commoners do awake, as was proved by MK Gandhi.

Netas like you and RM will say that the commoners are intelligent when they support your viewpoint, and the above statement when they don't.

My honest opinion is that commoners are very intelligent when it comes to issues that they are familiar with, and depend upon experts for things that are not familiar.

I talked to my maid, and some neighbours about the EVM. The unanimous opinion is that the EVM made things simple, and they see no reason to mistrust it.

Now, most of them are communist biased. If the CPM decides to put their weight behind the anti-EVM side, all these people will immediately curse the EVMs.

Simple onlee.

[harbans]

We may have a nobel peace prize winner this time:

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/opin ... 890925.cms

[Dileep]

Any device that is not open to public for examination is "secure", as no one can ever make a hack of EVM. And EC did not "give" 100 EVMs in the Aug-03 meet. They had just put 100 EVMs on display, none was allowed to open and examine its PCB or chips.

How do you know this? Show proof please.

Also, US prof could make a hack because the processor was publicly known. Here, it is ASIC. So if the part or whole of the trojan is in the ASIC, then one will need to scan the ASIC at gate level and decode microcode by looking at gates. This is next to impossible for any hacker. One can understand binary with extreme pain, but understanding logic from gate layout is far far more complex than that.

So only way to ensure is that EVMs used in booth are as per spec is

1. to allow the private players to buy EVMs they pick after right after counting for Rs 10000/-, 2. make chip design public
3. make source code public and
4. make binary public.

Anything less, and EC gets trivially easy ways to have tempered EVMs instead of what is on the spec. And those who insist that EVMs should not be given to any private player, source and chip layout must not be made public etc are only helping EC in ensuring that they can make fishy EVMs and get away. They noble intentions in keeping everything secret is only supporting the crooks in EC.

I am not technically against publishing the specs. The problem is, there will be thousands of netas like you who will jump up and down howling "sell-out" that is the problem.

Let an expert committee nominated by the parties do the analysis.

The paper booths were rigged NOT because of paper, but because of absence of camera and because judges dont punish criminal. And when someone stamps 10s of paper, he becomes visible. EVMs too can be captured by pressing buttons every 20 seconds, and no one will notice. So paper are better, because capturing at least gets noticed.

The real-time camera streaming is technically impossible, because of the geographic spread, bandwidth and infrastructure required. Only a recording camera will be plausibly viable.

Now what happens when the camera fails? Stop the poll? What happens if the camera is found to be devoid of any data? Cancel the poll? How do you continually ensure that the camera is functional? There are a lot of questions to be answered.

And I see that you repeatedly ignore the word "camera" and also ignore the words "electro-mechanical stamp with counter and built-in 20 sec delay" and go around bashing paper ballots. So once again, can you explain how paper with camera and stamp can be rigged at large scale? In EVM, I have shown how using modulo-5 EVMs can be rigged.

The 20s delay stamper is absolutely useless. A booth capture can manually stamp the ballots. IF camera is there to catch that, then it can very well make sure that no mass stamping happens even without the stamper.

The stamper is a strawman. It serves no purpose. The camera, if used properly, may be able to help.

[Dileep]

Let me put it on record that I oppose publication of the technical data not because certain Mr. Rahul Mehta[/b will jump ship.

He may or may not. It doesn't matter. As far as I am concerned, he is a nobody outside BRF, and the harm he can do in real politics is minimal. His utterances of nonsense here is duly countered, because it runs the risk of getting accepted as the technical truths. When you come to the main polity, where anacondas, taipans, mambas and king cobras slither, this water snake is nothing of concern.

What matters is the mainstream politicians who DOES carry weight among the REAL commoners. They are going to cry sell-out, and the real commoners are going to jump up and down behind them. Now, THAT, I am scared of.

[Rahul Mehta]

Those who are against EVMs, please send email to pranav.BRF AT gmail DOT com . It would be good to start a mailing list, keep in touch.

Pranav,

Pls check your email.

Also, I would request anti-EVM people to join the following orkut community to kill EVMs

http://www.orkut.co.in/Main#Community.aspx?cmm=92705561

Thanks

[Rahul Mehta]

The 20s delay stamper is absolutely useless. A booth capture can manually stamp the ballots.

Then counter in stamper and actual number of ballot will mismatch. In such case, there will be re-poll. A difference of say 1% can be allowed as "torelable" difference. Anything beyond should result into automatic repoll.

Also, the stamper can be make two stamps with a say 6 digit long random number. One stamp goes on ballot paper, another copy of same random number on a paper which remains with presiding officer. So in case of complaint, one can look at the ballots in the box, and discard the ballots which dont have numbers that match with numbers that are with presiding officer.

Booth capturing can happen no matter what tech we use. But it will be useless if it gets provably discovered and results into repoll for that booth. The stamper successfully invalidates ballots or poll in that booth, OR it creates a 20 second ballot.

The real-time camera streaming is technically impossible, because of the geographic spread, bandwidth and infrastructure required. Only a recording camera will be plausibly viable.

Mobile connectivity is universal. The camera can send still pix to server every 2 min, as good as real time for us. People can view the booth by connecting to server. EC can charge a small fee to who-so-ever who wants to watch that booth. Plus recording should be also there.

Now what happens when the camera fails? Stop the poll? What happens if the camera is found to be devoid of any data? Cancel the poll? How do you continually ensure that the camera is functional? There are a lot of questions to be answered.

Discretion of Returning Officer to be later decided by Jurors. That can happen with EVM too. What if EVM does not report data at counting table? But camera these are so reliable that failure will be less than 0.1% cases, and will be randomly distributed. In worst, case, how much do camera cost? If not more, we can put two cameras as sensitive booth.

==================

I am not technically against publishing the specs. The problem is, there will be thousands of netas like you who will jump up and down howling "sell-out" that is the problem. Let an expert committee nominated by the parties do the analysis. ...What matters is the mainstream politicians who DOES carry weight among the REAL commoners. They are going to cry sell-out, and the real commoners are going to jump up and down behind them. Now, THAT, I am scared of.

Dont blame other people for YOUR views. You are supporting EC's decision to keep the chip layout (which also can have trojan), binary, source code is MOST likely because you actually suspect that there is some foul play and you know that that foul play may get discovered if design etc are disclosed. And you want that foul play to go on and so you insist that design etc be kept secret or be confined to experts who have promised full "co-operation". And to rationalize the decision, you invented the ghost of "RM like neta" who will scream sell out when data is disclosed !! Nonsense. Ever since RTI came, 1000s of papers have been made public. None called it a sell out.

The ONLY reason to support secrecy is to let the foul play go on. Dont blame ghosts and ghouls etc for keep secrecy.

[Raja Bose]

How do you know this? Show proof please.

You cannot ask RM to provide 2 things:
(1) Logic.
(2) Proof


It is amazing how closely RM fits into the model of a militant activist - shoot-and-scoot...make allegations and when cornered without proof, nimbly jump to some other allegation.

[Raja Bose]

What matters is the mainstream politicians who DOES carry weight among the REAL commoners. They are going to cry sell-out, and the real commoners are going to jump up and down behind them. Now, THAT, I am scared of.

See definition of "RM-like elements" above . RM is just a chota-mota neta wannabe right now hence, is currently limited to shrieking Arundhati tunes from the rooftops.

[Dileep]

Then counter in stamper and actual number of ballot will mismatch. In such case, there will be re-poll. A difference of say 1% can be allowed as "torelable" difference. Anything beyond should result into automatic repoll.

Oh, fantastic!! Like the count on the stamper could not be modified. This is a mechanical counter as per your suggestion. That is a million times easy to modify.

Also, the stamper can be make two stamps with a say 6 digit long random number. One stamp goes on ballot paper, another copy of same random number on a paper which remains with presiding officer. So in case of complaint, one can look at the ballots in the box, and discard the ballots which dont have numbers that match with numbers that are with presiding officer.

Sure. How will you generate a random number using a mechanical stamper?

Mobile connectivity is universal.

Absolutely!! Where "you commons" live. Where "we elitists" live, they aren't. Let me ask you this, you Rutgers PG? Have you ever been to a real village? The commons you claim to represent aren't the rest of the 70 cr commons for sure.

The camera can send still pix to server every 2 min, as good as real time for us. People can view the booth by connecting to server. EC can charge a small fee to who-so-ever who wants to watch that booth. Plus recording should be also there.

You have absolutely no clue on the vast spread of the nation, and the type of infra and facilities available all around. For your kind information, India is NOT Ahmedabad. Come back to me after you visit 30 villages in interior UP/Bihar. then we will talk.

Discretion of Returning Officer to be later decided by Jurors. That can happen with EVM too. What if EVM does not report data at counting table? But camera these are so reliable that failure will be less than 0.1% cases, and will be randomly distributed. In worst, case, how much do camera cost? If not more, we can put two cameras as sensitive booth.

Take your jurors and stick them where the sun doesn't shine. Talk about what is present in this country, the Republic of India. Not your Rahulworld.

Cameras being raliable, have you any idea the abuse they have to bear in the polling process. In next election, get out of that fancy car of yours and see what it takes to arrange polling in a village.

Dont blame other people for YOUR views.

Physician, treat yourself!!

I pretty well know what "you commons" can do.

You are supporting EC's decision to keep the chip layout (which also can have trojan), binary, source code is MOST likely because you actually suspect that there is some foul play and you know that that foul play may get discovered if design etc are disclosed. And you want that foul play to go on and so you insist that design etc be kept secret or be confined to experts who have promised full "co-operation".

Are you arguing that a committee of experts, nominated by the parties are "co-operative?" In other words, are you alleging that all parties are supporting rigging?

And to rationalize the decision, you invented the ghost of "RM like neta" who will scream sell out when data is disclosed !! Nonsense. Ever since RTI came, 1000s of papers have been made public. None called it a sell out.

I thank god, that we don't have too many like you RM.

[Dileep]

Rahul, why do you oppose the formation of a committee of experts, nominated by all parties?

Let me guess, because you are not involved? Huh? Because YOUR ulterior motive of advancing your agenda isn't served?