AMCA News and Discussions

vina · Post by **vina** » 24 Jul 2013 11:10

Philip wrote:With the crash of the rupee,it is unlikely that any new ultra-expnsive venture will now see the light of day,at least for the forseeable future.Read AMCA.We took our time to enter the FGFA programme and only hen we realised that the Russians might offer the same to the Chinese did we sign on.We lost valuable time and have had to accept what was on offer,as the Russians are on a tight time-frame,as they are approx. a decade behind the US who have he Raptor in service and the JSF under development

Shouldn't that logically read NO PAKFA and MRCA and large focus on LCA MKII and AMCA ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jul 2013 16:42

Well,if we were the French or British-and even the EF was a combined EU effort,perhaps we could! But we haven't been able to master AESA radars,let alone conformal ones,engine tech has not produced even our very first-the Kaveri,so where do we go to for this tech? Secondly,both LCA and FGFA are in advanced stages of development,both birds are flying,much moolah has been spent and they will arrive this decade in service.FGFA perhaps a few years after FOC of the LCA,now estimated as Dec.2014.,say even early 2015.

Reg. the MMRCA,with the rupee's fall,I seriously doubt that we will buy beyond the first batch of 120 until the economy is in better shape.There will already be a 10-15% increase in the cost due to the Euro going up in value.Hopefully the GOI is seized of the matter and finalises the deal asap as the political scenario is getting extremely ugly and uncertain in the run up to the next hustings. This deal is supposed to gvie us much needed western aicraft tech in addition to Russian on the FGFA.Essential if we are going to develop our own desi designs for the future.

PS:VIna,how do the SoKos and sons of Nippon planning to develop their own FX's?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2013 16:42

vina wrote:
Philip wrote:With the crash of the rupee,it is unlikely that any new ultra-expnsive venture will now see the light of day,at least for the forseeable future.Read AMCA.We took our time to enter the FGFA programme and only hen we realised that the Russians might offer the same to the Chinese did we sign on.We lost valuable time and have had to accept what was on offer,as the Russians are on a tight time-frame,as they are approx. a decade behind the US who have he Raptor in service and the JSF under development
Shouldn't that logically read NO PAKFA and MRCA and large focus on LCA MKII and AMCA ?

Nope.

India is paying for the MMRCA and the FGFA in Rupees and for the AMCA in FE !!!

It was a dedicated bomber till a few days ago, now it is the single engine stealth fighter that is the latest fad.

Never mind that the AMCA has gone through a good deal of studies, perhaps a few details nailed down. And, there is a small chance that even the Kaveri in its present form just may do for the AMCA (twin engine one). But (the latest reason) since the Rupee has fallen so badly that they should toss the twin engine effort and chance a non-existent single engine effort.

Someone please take care of the Rupee please. Else the next logical step would be a LCA MK-V recoated with some paint (Paki style), a RD-33 engine and rebranded as the AMCA.

I guess we all need a comic break. ????

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2013 16:43

both LCA and FGFA are in advanced stages of development,both birds are flying

Where is the FGFA flying? The last I heard the Russians wanted India to sign of on the design or R&D phase. No Sir, the FGFA is a paper plane right now.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jul 2013 16:46

NR,thou art spot on old prophet! I read recently in a journo (serously,no fibbing) that a magic paint job makes the MIG-29K 4 times less stealthy ! Presto,we have the answer to MK-V!

FGFA? Pak-FA,the Russian single-seater,which is what we're also going to get,no two-seater anymore,scrapped because of both cost and doubt that HAL can develop/deliver the same ,is flying,4 (?)prototypes thus far ,plus we are told that our first prototypes will be with us by 2014.

India to get first FGFA prototype 'in 2014'
Rahul Bedi, New Delhi - IHS Jane's Defence Weekly
19 August 2012

The head of the Indian Air Force says that Russia will deliver the first FGFA prototype to New Delhi in 2014
India plans to buy 220-250 FGFAs, which are based on the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA

The Indian Air Force (IAF) will receive a prototype of the advanced stealth Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that India is co-developing with Russia for testing in 2014, the head of the service said in New Delhi on 18 August.

"The first prototype of the FGFA, scheduled to arrive in India by 2014, will undergo extensive trials at the Ojhar air base at Nashik [western India] and we are hopeful that the fighter will be ready for induction eight years later," Air Chief Marshall Norman A K Browne said.

Fifth generation fighter crosses milestone
http://www.thehindu.com/news/internatio ... 602836.ece

Vladimir Radyuhin

India and Russia have crossed the first milestone towards the development of the fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA), completing the preliminary design of the plane.

“The preliminary design contract (PDC) for the Russian-Indian fifth generation aircraft has been executed,” Russia’s Sukhoi aircraft company announced on Wednesday.

The Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) signed the $295-million PDC contract in December 2010 with the Sukhoi company, which is responsible in Russia for developing the PAK-FA (perspective aviation complex-frontline aircraft), as the FGFA is called in Russia.

“The aircraft design has been fully developed,” Sukhoi said in a press release. “Both parties have agreed upon on the amount and division of work during the research and development (R&D) stage. A contract for the R&D is being prepared. It is to be signed this year.”

Under the PDC contract Sukhoi has also trained Indian engineers and provided HAL with the data and software needed to create a single working environment. A team of HAL engineers and IAF experts has been working at Sukhoi’s design bureau in Moscow, while Russian engineers have been assigned to HAL.

Four T-50 aircraft, the Russian prototype of the fifth generation fighter, have already performed more than 200 test flights since January 2010.

The customised FGFA version will have “some differences” from the Russian prototype to meet “specific requirements of the Indian Air Force,” the Sukhoi announcement said.

Russian experts said the FGFA will differ in “mission hardware and software,” as well as weapons. India has dropped its initial plan to redesign the single-seat T-50 into a twin-seat version.

Air Chief Marshal N.A.K. Browne told reporters at Aero India-2013 that India is to receive from Russia the first prototype of the fifth-generation fighter in 2014, followed by two more in 2017 and 2018. The FGFA is expected to go into series production by 2022.

This is India’s biggest-ever defence project and its largest defence deal with Russia. It is expected to cost India more than $30 billion. However, last year India scaled down its original plan to acquire 214 planes by one-third, to 144 aircraft, citing time and cost factors. Russia plans to induct 60 planes at an estimated price tag of $100 million per aircraft.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2013 16:55

Philip wrote:NR,thou art spot on old prophet! I read recently in a journo (serously,no fibbing) that a magic paint job makes the MIG-29K 4 times less stealthy ! Presto,we have the answer to MK-V!

Oh NO. Not the MiG-29 again!!!

Pravda :: Jul 11, 2013 :: Does anyone need 4th and 5th generation fighter aircraft?

This thread is meant for Dorothy. Hope the color is yellow. And the 29 is a brick. So figures.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jul 2013 16:58

I meant the paint job only,the aircraft doesn't come free with it!

PS:There's another interesting report here.

FGFA-Quantum leap for Indian aerospace.
http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapter ... ace-1.aspx

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2013 17:53

Philip wrote:
PS:There's another interesting report here.

FGFA-Quantum leap for Indian aerospace.
http://www.esamskriti.com/essay-chapter ... ace-1.aspx

talking of interesting:

India held captive by Russia in FGFA strike fighter race

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Jul 2013 18:59

I've read it before.Yes we are bound,I wouldn't say hostage to a design that is Russian product.But one must ask why so? For one,we got onto the project late after much dithering.Secondly,as this quote from the ASSOCHAM/PWC report says about the "holy grail" of indigenisation,posted in the LCH td.,we are still unsure about what we can deliver,that too on a Russian led project with strict timeframes.We took some time before drawing up our unique requirements which from the above reports appears to be on track.

I've no doubt that had it been an Indian led one,in India,we would've had tall claims from babudom of developing a wholly invisible aircraft in the shortest time possible!

The definition of indigenous content in spirit is commendable
and seeks to scan through the indigenous content in the
entire supply-chain. However, ensuring compliance with the
requirement at all the tiers is going to be extremely cumbersome
for the entire industry. The indigenous content as it is currently
worded may also be open to varied interpretation, example,
the meaning of non-Indian entities, direct and indirect costs
of services etc. Further, the Indian companies, even if they
are indigenously manufacturing the core equipment, may get
disqualified on a strict application of the definition of indigenous
content. This may lead to re-categorisation of the procurements
under ‘buy and make with ToT’or ‘buy global programmes and
eventually defeat the objectives of the changes.
The affirmation of indigenous content at the trial stage is
impractical and requires re-consideration. It is acknowledged
that India does not have the current know-how and the
infrastructure to manufacture high-end defence equipments and
therefore, expecting the requirement to be fulfilled at the time of
trials is unreasonable and impractical.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Jul 2013 20:12

As rupees has fallen no more participation in MTA, no more of those readymade Amur Submarines with brahmos which are needed urgently. Forget all these.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 24 Jul 2013 21:27

Thank the Russians profusely for their assistance in all areas (although they are not parting with the latest and greatest - and that is not a complain).

As far as India is concerned (NOT IAF), the AMCA is a two dimensional effort: first as a strategic one, one that is crucial for the future of India and secondly as a technical effort, one that meets the requirements of the Indian AF. Let us not confuse the two. They are distinct and separate.

The prior is a necessity, as any strategic efforts would be. One that parallels the nuclear and rocketry efforts - no less. India cannot afford to drop that ball. And, as any strategic efforts go, India cannot rely on ANY other nation to support it for ever. So, the AMCA needs to stand on its own. It has nothing to do with any other aircraft effort, within or without India.

As far as the latter, the IAF can perhaps select what it needs, BUT, it cannot and should not be allowed to veto the "AMCA". For, the IAF (or any such entity) should not be setting the strategic goals. They should be assisting it. The idea being that the IAF, in the near future, should wean itself off on reliance of any outside help. In, say, some 15 years all IAF fighters should be Indian.

BTW, the last time I checked the FGFA was a co-production. Does not seem to me that it is Russian. Russian assistance and reliance on some crucial technologies for the time being. BUT, the AMCA would enable to replace every aspect of the FGFA with Indian "stuff" as time move along. And, that should be the goal of the "AMCA".

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 24 Jul 2013 23:11

we are going to waste lot more time in this assumption of foreign help. it is a total waste of doing a planning even with the thought of knowledge coming from outside country boundaries.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2013 00:51

Yes,like the piece about us being 100% indigenous with boots,blankets,etc! Pl. read the print even by ASSOCHAM/PWC ,in another td.which says that we simply do not have the expertise to develop thee cutting edge tech. ourselves,that pvt. industry has to be brought in to expedite the goal of indigenisation,and initially "mothered" as huge sums are required for R&D,plus guaranteed that enough orders will be forthcoming.

Let me tell you that even if the AMCA is given the green light,where is the engine going to come from? Mars? Please,let's not have the talk of Kaveri any more,that is a sick joke.Then the AESA radar and other stealth tech.How long is it also going to take before we are able to develop the same? When most of the developed nations of Europe have to develop 4++ gen fighters in a collaborative manner ,Typhoon for example,several nations part of the JSF programme,we who have yet to perfect the LCA imagine that a smart looking wind tunnel model will see assured success .

A simple note from history.There was a Roman emperor who had a wise old military engineer .One day a young man demonstrated a model of a machine which could pluck and capture a siege tower from behind the fort ramparts like a crane.He was lauded and replaced the old man.When the next siege arrived,the emperor asked him to deliver,but he could only blubber that his machine was only a model and that it couldn't be made.The old engr. was recalled and solved the problem by emptying the sewage and waste water into the path of the siege machines which then toppled due to the soft ground.Reinstated.

I know that this is an off-beat tale and tangential,but simply saying that the AMCA will be
"under our control,all components will be made at home,etc." is wishful thinking.List out the key components and identify which DPSUs or pvt. entities have the capability to deliver them on time and under budget! Examine their track record.I am simply being realistic.Right now with resources tight,we should perfect the LCA and FGFA ,fund the MMRCA acquisition and see that they succeed.The experience of success with these two,technologies absorbed with the FGFA,MMRCA,etc., should then give us the platform from which to decide upon an AMCA,ALCA whatever.

PS:Manish. The sub crisis requires immediate firefighting.The IN will have to earmark capital expenditure from out of its budget.It is not that funds have not been earmarked for such a project,but that no decision has been made on P-75I
since Adm.Bhagwat was CNS and the masterplan for the IN's future sub force was envisioned! The Scorpene project has turned into a fiasco-read the naval thread.Like the MMRCA deal,we will now have to import extra Kilos or another new type to sort out the situ.Older Kilos cannot be further upgraded like the ones which can now carry the Klub missile and the U-209s are already long in the tooth.I'm cross-posting just a snippet from the LCH td. to underline the situ.The IN now say after the latest revision in schedule (2017 for the first Scorpene to arrive),that the sub will be outdated when it appears.Yet despite the 10 yr. delay in building Scorpenes,MDL armtwisted the MOD/GOI to prevent pvt. yards like L&T from building subs (when they can build the hulls for the nuclear subs)!

The state of indigenous ship construction is hostage to PSU shipyards,which are unable to meet the production schedules and critical projects are getting delayed. With Indian bureaucracy designed to deal with PSUs, there is inherent mistrust towards private players in the sector despite their proven capacities. The fact is that even though India plans to increase its force levels to 150-160 ships by 2022, the PSU shipyards cannot keep up with the pace of construction due to very high existing workloads and low production capacities. The matter is compounded due to cumbersome procurement procedures and outdated machinery. Consider this:

# Production of three Shivalik class frigates was commenced during 2000-2003 with contracted delivery dates in 2008-2009. Two of them were delivered after a decade and the last one still to be handed over. In the meantime, the cost of each ship shot from Rs 2250 crore in January, 1998 to the present Rs 9,000 crore.

# Production of three destroyers of proven Delhi class began in 2003-2005 with deliveries in 2009-2012. The first will be delivered at the end of this year and the remaining two to be handed over to Navy in the coming years. The original cost of each destroyer escalated from Rs 3580 crore in May 2001 to present Rs 11,876 crore.

# Production contract for six Scorpene submarines was awarded in 2005 end. They were to be delivered from 2010 to 2014. The likely deliveries are now going to take place from 2016 to 2021 after a delay of ten years.

# The first Brahmputra class of frigate (project P-16A) was delivered after twelve years of building period. Sister ship INS Betwa was delivered after 16 years of commencement of production and the third ship INS Beas was delivered after 17 years of commencement of production.

There are many other instances that reveal that all is not well with Indian naval prowess with Navy lacking the teeth to strike. While the Indian Navy is going to be a proud owner of Russian built Akula class nuclear submarine soon, it is still to acquire long legs needed to become a deterrent to the growing PLA Navy. With the PLA shifting its focus from land to naval forces, it is time that the Indian Navy got its act together. The government needs to be open to warship building in private sector and shed the PSU protection attitude as the latter just do not have the capacities. Given that India’s stated area of influence is from Gulf of Aden to the narrow Malacca Straits, New Delhi simply needs more surface combats. Otherwise, the Chinese are coming and in a big way.

Also read "Indigenising defence - the 70:30 fallacy" for more on the subject.
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 057_1.html

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2013 01:07

Of the LCA, MMRCA. FGFA and the AMCA, only the LCA has the "green light". Let us be sure about that. Outside that one little fact, only the AMCA has the next best in terms of a "Green light". Then comes the MMRCA and the FGFA has yet to see the light of day - that is still a paper plane as one can get to be. More than likely we will see some efforts that have been planned for the AMCA taking fruit in the FGFA.

And, still need an answer, why not the Kaveri for the AMCA?

My statement of 90s mind set still stands.

(Slow day folks, sorry.)

One small item to note: The PAK-FA was started by Sukhoi (not Russia) around 1997is. So, it has taken them - a company of great experience - some 15 years to reach here: some 4-5 test aircrafts. This aircraft does NOT have a "5th Gen" engine that they are still building.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2013 01:15

Where is there a "green light" for the AMCA? It is red as of now-officially.There's an old saying relevant to the 21st century too,"let's not bite off more than we can chew".....or to even add ,"more than we can afford!"

Kaveri? Where is it? Has even one prototype of the LCA flown with it? How much longer willl it take to arrive and will this 20th century design truly be valid for a 21st century fighter? Even the Russians and Americans have /are developing new engines for their stealth fighters.Please be realistic,we have no P&W,GE.EJ,RR or SNECMA in this country.The GTRE has failed to deliver after decades of development.Even engine testing has to be done in Russia.Quite some time ago,several of us asked why such facilities could not be established at Bangalore.Even the IJT is flying with a firang engine.When we have yet to develop a single contemporary aero-engine talk of the Kaveri powering the AMCA is wishful thinking. The FGFA is no paper plane,4 prototypes are flying and we are getting our first one in 2014 according to the CoAS,ACM Browne.

As said before,if our DPSUs have had a track record of mostly success,developed systems within budget and on time,we would have the confidence in them.But what is the actual track record? Cost overruns have been funded as can be seen from the various reports especially on warships,it's not for lack of funding.The GOI/MOD itself now wants Indian industry to rise to the occasion as the DPSUs cannot do everything.

NR,This debate about the AMCA which has been shelved is running nowhere.When the AMCA is dusted off the shelf and given the "green light" we can resume fencing.However,you have made one important point,about using planned tech/systems envisaged for the AMCA on the FGFA.That is the way to go,to focus our resources on projects in the pipeline.Similar to FGFA systems being used on the SU-35 to validate them earlier. By the same yardstick,what is there envisaged for the AMCA that we cannot use on the LCA MK-2 or 3? We can move onto to the LCA td.Cheers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2013 01:20

I said "next best in terms of green light".

Did NOT say "green light".

Please read carefully and do NOT interpret words for your convenience.

______________________________

But the AMCA does have some initial funding. Will post URL as soon as I find it.

______________________________

Nov 21, 2010 :: ADA seeks $2 bn for advanced medium combat aircraft

Just to be sure, this is from Nov, 2010, so the funding occurred prior to 2010:

“We have just started working on this fifth-generation aircraft, for which we had already received sanctions to the tune of Rs 100 crore. The way the government is cooperating, I am able to say that we will receive the funding ($2 billion) in the next 18 months,” PS Subramanyam, programme director (combat aircraft) and director of ADA, told Business Standard.

I would not fool around with the AMCA. Monkey business is for other areas.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2013 01:34

I really have not kept up with the progress, but here is another, more recent article:

MAY 18, 2013 :: DRDO chief expresses concern over FDI

Advanced Aircraft

Saraswat said the project on advanced medium-combat aircraft is in the design stage.

“After this we will approach the government which will take an year’s time. There are three major technologies being developed by the DRDO for the same.

“Once clearance is issued, we hope to start the production soon. No decision was taken by the DRDO or HAL or Defence Ministry to give up project,” he said.

Too late Mr. FGFA. Glad to report that the AMCA is on your tail.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2013 01:41

JULY 6, 2013 :: AMCA to be developed in 12-15 years

While the DRDO puts its full weight behind priority delivery of the LCA Tejas to the Indian Air Force (IAF), its new Chief Dr Avinash Chander has made an ambitious claim: that the stealth fifth generation advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) will be delivered in 12-15 years. The AMCA, while not a formally sanctioned project yet, is still on the drawing board in the conceptual phase, and will receive formal funding only once deliveries begin of the FOC LCA Tejas Mk.1.

The DRDO is currently working on several enabling technologies, including stealth, vectored thrust nozzles, serpentine air intakes, internal weapons bays, advanced avionics, etc to form the foundations of the advanced aircraft. The aircraft will be larger and more powerful than the Indo-Russian PMF/FGFA {Ouch}, and will be a priority stealth strike platform for operations behind enemy air defences. Current research and development on the project is being funded through internal resources, and work will pick up in earnest from late 2014 when the burden of the LCA Tejas is off the DRDO's shoulders. A degree of foreign consultancy will be inevitable on the AMCA, sources indicate.

Looks pretty cute.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2013 01:58

Stand corrected on light "green".However,your report is dated 2010,and as of now we are officially shelving the AMCA until the LCA succeeds.

Well,what about this news item?

The reason for the sudden decision to send the AMCA project, which began in 2006 as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) , to cold storage is to help ADA to focus all its energy on completing the much-delayed LCA project.

“The AMCA has been put on hold for the moment. This decision was taken recently to let the ADA focus on the LCA project,” top Defence Ministry sources said.

http://newindianexpress.com/nation/LCA- ... 555781.ece

LCA project delay stalls Air Force’s AMCA plans

By N C Bipindra - NEW DELHI

22nd April 2013

Troubles in India’s ambitious Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) project has created problems for IAF’s plans for an Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) has “put on hold” the AMCA project that is being spearheaded by Defence Research and Development Organisation’s (DRDO) Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA).

The reason for the sudden decision to send the AMCA project, which began in 2006 as the Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) , to cold storage is to help ADA to focus all its energy on completing the much-delayed LCA project.

“The AMCA has been put on hold for the moment. This decision was taken recently to let the ADA focus on the LCA project,” top Defence Ministry sources said.

The AMCA project, for which the IAF provided the final Air Staff Qualitative Requirements (ASQR) in April 2010, may be taken up at a later date, the sources said.

India will buy Rafale planes from the French Dassault Aviation as part of its 126 Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender in which there is a provision to buy another 63 as a follow-on order.

That apart, India is working on the Fifth General Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) in collaboration with Russia. With the final agreement on the design and development of the FGFA three months away, India will get at least 140 FGFAs for induction by 2027.

Considering that most of the capabilities of AMCA will be covered by the MMRCA and FGFA planes, the revival of the AMCA will be a well thought-out one, sources said.

AMCA’s envisaged features include stealth, multi-role operations, adequate precision strike capabilities, including critical first-day missions such as Suppression of Enemy Air Defence (SEAD) and Destruction of Enemy Air Defence (DEAD).

The much-touted Tejas has taken 30 years already, at an escalated project cost of `5,489 crore. Since the LCA project was sanctioned in 1983 at a cost of `560 crore, the time overrun has resulted in a 10-fold increase in the cost. The plane is yet to get even its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC).

But sources pointed out that the LCA still lacks certain critical capabilities, including a reliable radar, and is deficient in at least 100 technical parameters. “The plane cannot fly on its own. It needs a lifeline in the form of support and monitoring of its systems from the ground by technicians,” they said.

The LCA, in fact, gave creditable flying displays during the AeroIndia show in Yelahanka in Bangalore in February this year and followed it up with weapons firing to hit both ground and aerial targets during the ‘Iron Fist’ fire power display by the IAF in Pokhran in February this year.

“Now, Flying and usage of weapons are done with ground monitoring and support. The plane is still not ready to flying on its own,” the sources stressed. Their guess is that the LCA may not meet its schedule of obtaining the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) before July this year and will be ready in December this year or early next year

PS:Incidentally,renowned scientist Dr.Saraswat has retired and Avinash Chander is now the DRDO chief.His statements posted by you above bear me out in full,that only after the LCA arrives will work on the AMCA begin!

Secondly,and I am delighted at this piece of news,that the AMCA as he puts ,it is going to be even "larger" than the Indo-Russian FGFA/PAK-FA and meant for "strike behind enemy air defences".In other words,this vindicates my position on the AMCA in earlier posts where I've been advocating for a larger AMCA with a bombing role instead of replicating the multi-role air dominance FGFA .This is what the Chinese are believed to be developing according to Janes',AWST,etc.,a stealth bomber somewhat larger than their already "heavy" stealth fighter in addition to their two stealth designs.If this is the case,then it receives my full support-after we start LCA series production.So what we saw at Aero-India earlier this year will most probably be history.

As for the AMCA being "on" the FGFA's tail (when all we have is a wind tunnel model),as the Yanquis say,"tell that to the Marines!"

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2013 02:17

BS, nothing you said is "vindicated". You paint an animal with a tiger's head, an alligator's tail, a cheetah's body, etc, etc, etc. Then when someone says this animal has a tiger's head, you say, I told you so. Very conveniently forgetting the rest of your post.

My recollection is that 1) you preferred a single engine, perhaps an enhanced LCA (ALCA as you called it) and 2) Kill the AMCA since it duplicated the efforts of the FGFA.

BTW, it is news to me that the AMCA is larger than the FGFA. IF true and it is coming in 12ish years, why not kill the FGFA. Plough those funds into the AMCA and more C-17s + C-130Js I say.

I think this is what the MoD needs to do: increase LCA Mk-I, reduce LCA-Mk-II, fund the AMCA - two versions: one a single and one with dual engines, kill the FGFA and certainly the MMRCA.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Jul 2013 05:38

Philip wrote:...

PS:Incidentally,renowned scientist Dr.Saraswat has retired and Avinash Chander is now the DRDO chief.His statements posted by you above bear me out in full,that only after the LCA arrives will work on the AMCA begin!

...

It's not that simple black or white scenario. For the AMCA project to come to fruition, there are a lot of core science & engineering work that needs to be done, such as stealth materials, sensors, computers, etc. These are being done in parallel across many DRDO labs. Also, project definition, planning and design studies need to occur before official development begins. So while "official" AMCA development sanction may come post-LCA Mk.1 FOC, a lot of work has already begun and will continue to be worked on in parallel.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 25 Jul 2013 06:57

NR,don't get tied up in knots with your own words.I've been very consistent about the AMCA and my analysis has been as follows:

1.No need to duplicate the FGFA with another desi AMCA reinventing the wheel.

2.Even if we want to ,where are the key components for the AMCA going to come from within the country,like the engine,when we cannot even develop the Kaveri for the LCA? DPSUs have their limitations and Pvt.industry has to start from scratch,and pray in what realistic timeframe is this going to happen?

3.If money is a problem,"control" over as much tech that is desi,which can't be done with the FGFA and can be supported almost entirely in the country by DPSUs and Pvt. industry;a need for such an aircraft,leverage the LCA project with tech developed for it,plus extra intended for the AMCA and develop a MK-3 with stealth capabilities.A faster way to achieve a lower cost stealth fighter.The JSF is also single-engined.Even here the LCA flies with a firang engine and radar and most of the weaponry.

4.The need for a strategic bomber,not a large bomber on the scale of the US designs,but larger than the FGFA that can accommodate Nirbhay and Brahmos in internal weapons bays.

5.Develop the AMCA after success on the LCA.

From the new DRDO chief,and other media reports quoting defence officials,the last two points appear to be happening.This vindicates my stand.

SRAI,if such work is indeed happening in parallel without any stoppage,then the ideal platform to induct some of them would be future avatars of the LCA to validate the tech developed,as is being done on the SU-35 for the FGFA.That would be the fastest way,shortening the developmental timeframe instead of waiting for a new platform to arrive.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2013 07:32

Do not worry. I have a lot more things to take seriously in my life. Most else I use it for comic relief - one needs that too.

Now that the AMCA will not die I am happy. Lets move on.

nash · Post by **nash** » 25 Jul 2013 08:11

If LCA program has separate design peoples and they has currently not much work as LCA is going through Testing, then there is no reason to allow to sit them idle.They can be used in designing of AMCA and by the time LCA get FOC, DEV or Production team also available for further work.

srai · Post by **srai** » 25 Jul 2013 10:19

Philip wrote:...

SRAI,if such work is indeed happening in parallel without any stoppage,then the ideal platform to induct some of them would be future avatars of the LCA to validate the tech developed,as is being done on the SU-35 for the FGFA.That would be the fastest way,shortening the developmental timeframe instead of waiting for a new platform to arrive.

These tech will find their way into future versions of LCA (and/or tested on LCA) as well as AMCA, UCAV, and other platforms. Just as with the development of the LCA DRDO was able to build a whole host of enabling technologies that will eventually find their way into the AMCA, such as Composites, FBW, avionics, etc. same will happen with technologies from AMCA. Groups that researched and developed these technologies, such as composites, are not sitting idle. They are actively iterating into the next version(s) with improved performance. AMCA will be leveraging on these.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jul 2013 20:54

Reposting this article:

March 4, 2013 :: Aviation Week :: New Design For Indian Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft

India has unveiled an updated design for its so-called fifth-generation fighter concept, known as the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA).

Representations of the fighter have changed often in the last few years. But the 1:8-scale model of the concept displayed at last month's Aero India 2013 show in Bengaluru is the final configuration and the one with which the program will proceed.

So, it seems a few important aspects are nailed down - already. Point being that real funding is expected AFTER the LCA FOC (end of 2014), when the AMCA effort will get into higher gears. When it comes to efforts the program is already moving - effort is not waiting for the delivery of the LCA to start. Funding is.

...............India's Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) hopes to equip the AMCA includes a panoramic active-matrix cockpit display, triplex fly-by-light architecture with an optical-fiber-based digital flight-control computer .............

A comment related to the FGFA:

“Let's be clear: the HAL-Sukhoi program isn't a joint effort,” says an air force officer with Bengaluru-based Training Command. “The airframe will be identical to the ones the Russians currently have in flight-test. Our decision to go with a single-seat configuration is principally to avoid potential time overruns that will almost certainly be part of designing such a configuration. The maximum that HAL will do is insert a few systems of our choice and play lead integrator for the 'MKI,' if you will,” he says, alluding to the MKI version of the two-seat Su-30 developed by Sukhoi for India.

The FGFA is not Indian enough due to time and cost, and not due to lack of Indian capabilities.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 26 Jul 2013 07:24

If that is the final avatar of the AMCA,there appears to be a dichotomy with AC's statement,that the AMCA would be "larger" than the FGFA.If it also going to be used as a strike fighter behind enemy air defences,with underwing ordnance-as the model does not show a large enough internal weapons bay,what happens to its stealth? The model at Aero-India in no way looked as if it was larger than the FGFA.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 26 Jul 2013 08:35

it is important to have kaveri ported to lca-td first. there are no words to say how important that is for AMCA.

Sujata · Post by **Sujata** » 30 Jul 2013 10:35

I was reading about past 5th generation projections of the ATF YF-23 vs yf-22,and I realized that these big companies like Northrop design and build their own aircraft ,but it's not just these major companies that do it all by themselves.It takes a hundreds of little companies to help them make that 5th gen. jet fighter.So instead of ripping on HAL and thinking what's wrong with them ,and why it takes so long for them to build a fighter , you have to think of the big picture and see how little help they get from the subcontractors.

What are the major parts ,and smaller parts that HAL could reproduce using 3D manufacturing or buying up smaller international companies and moving them to India to speed up production? For example china is using 3D manufacturing with their stealth fighters Pictures ,

http://www.3ders.org/articles/20130529- ... onent.html

Good article with this: http://www.mylot.com/post/2778953/ahead ... r-using-3d

blog:http://www.mylot.com/post/2778953/ahead ... r-using-3d

You want to save time and money building the AMCA,and so I was thinking build small scale models that you can Collect data from all of the flights and make adjustments with that data ,and make the proper changes as you see fit without wasting big time bucks with a full scale model.Example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQ9dSrrBN28
If you make 20 of these planes ,and gain some useful data then that's all that really matters.

Does HAL use Dassault 3D software,or something that is as powerful as it to test virtually all the parts work together,and a stress test them also? http://www.3ds.com/products-services/so ... /overview/

While studying how they developed the YF-23 I learned that 75% of it had common parts with the F-15 and F18. How did they do this? The nose of the YF-23 was from a F-15,and the landing gear was from the F-18 to save money.How is that possible?They did it ,and it flew. So you really only have to make a jet fighter with 70's and 80's technology plus 25% stealth incorporated into it to fly. The parallel lines ,and shape of the air plane and coating make it stealth.

Check out this cool coating I found online. "Pefect Black Coating" using carbon nanotubes.http://www.ns.umich.edu/new/releases/20 ... -astronomy

It's great to have those in your 5th gen. fighter ,but is the plane a really advance fighter over all .If the AMCA has 25% stealth in it does it make it a great fighter vs the china and american 5th gen.fighters?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Jul 2013 07:26

The latest spat between the IAF and HAL,with the former in the person of ACM Browne accusing HAL of wanting to "surrender" 30% of its 50% workshare on the strategic FGFA project and instead build the (drawing board) HTT BTA which the IAF has rejected in favour of the Pilatus,already inducted and in the pipeline,is clearly a case of misplaced priorities.If we have ambitions of developing our own "stealth" AMCA,surely the experience gained on the FGFA will be of immense benefit to us? Is it because HAL will be exposed to be unable to deliver the "goods" on time or what? The FGFA is a timebound project with very strict timeframes being under Putin's eye.HAL will not have the luxury of sliding deadlines as has been experienced with the LCA,IJT,et al. As Sujata has also said in the above post,the US and the Europeans have a host of pvt. entities across which the entire "load" of such advanced fighter projects are shared.In India we have a handful of DPSUs which jealously guard their turf,allowing the crumbs from their table to be thrown to pvt. industry.

With the sad track record of the Kaveri engine,and our inability to design and manufacture a single aero-engine ,aero-engines and many other components in the aviation industry should've been thrown open a long time ago.Just "wanting" to indigenise doesn't produce results.DPSUs have to be treated with a "carrot and stick" policy.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Jul 2013 07:37

Where di we get this that the FGFA will help the AMCA from? A Putin plant?

rotfl

Utter nonsense.

(BTW, the FGFA has more composite content than the PAK-FA because India is great at composites. Just BTW.)

The day India chose to go with the PAK-FA design India lost her chance to "design" her own FGFA. Simple. There is really nothing to "learn" from the FGFA. It is a Su-30MKI all over again. Outside of the fact that it is modern plane there is really nothing India gains from it.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Jul 2013 08:33

None so blind that those that cannot see..or learn,or believe that there is nothing to be learnt!
That seems to be HAL's way.Shame.

This attitude also contradicts the arguments put forth for the choice of a European fighter for the MMRCA ,so that we could acquire western tech. for the same, AESA radar,etc.By the same argument,what design input has India thus achieved in choosing the Rafale?

member_22539 · Post by **member_22539** » 31 Jul 2013 09:40

^A fat load of nothing in my opinion. Some were saying that manufacturing process and practices will be a bonus from the Rafale deal, at least that seems plausible. What will the PAK-FA deal give us in tech? Of course, it being Russian might be enough for some to justify such a deal, but I would like to hear some specifics with regard to technological benefits. From what I hear and read these days the development is almost done with regard to FGFA designs and its is a 100% Russian effort, with just the addition of some composites and avionics by HAL. If this is what we get, it is no better than the Rafale deal. So much for taller than mountain, deeper than ocean
"strategic" Russian friendship.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 31 Jul 2013 10:10

Rus is 100% not going to transfer any 117 engine, aesa /L-band side radar design secrets anywhere. other than that yes we can build and study the airframe and get tech for internal bay and weapons release from the same. the weapons developed for pakfa could be used in amca internal bay.

but the key roadblocks of engine and aesa radar will surely not be resolved by any pakfa / mrca kind of deal.

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 31 Jul 2013 10:30

Philip wrote:None so blind that those that cannot see..or learn,or believe that there is nothing to be learnt!
That seems to be HAL's way.Shame.

This attitude also contradicts the arguments put forth for the choice of a European fighter for the MMRCA ,so that we could acquire western tech. for the same, AESA radar,etc.By the same argument,what design input has India thus achieved in choosing the Rafale?

Philip, I'm afraid I will have to say this - in your extreme anxiety of a successful AMCA may be knocking off some of the potential FGFA revenue (in say 2025) to Russia, you have started sounding more and more outlandish. So pls get a life ...

But if you want to persist, get this - for SDRE us (ok maybe excluding the Harrumph Dark/Sky Blue tribe

), there's nothing to be gained in terms of design/manufacturing technology with the FGFA effort - zero/zilch/nada/nothing.
Ok, granted, some more screw-driver-giri, yes - and maybe another non-descript mofussil/town gaining in terms of economic activity due to this more screw-driver-giri (so 50-60s thought process, but that's where this harrumph tribe currently resides in terms of their mind-space

).
------------------
------------------
And if you want to argue about the value-add of these screw-driver-giri, pls list down what technology handout has helped India in any of the predecessor programs (pls keep it strictly to IAF).

And since you continue to bring in Kaveri program to berate every indigenous technological programs, pls try and answer the following specific questions (I'm afraid it will a tad technical) - and no 100000 word random-googling based verbal calisthenics pls, specific answer to specific questions:

Since we have been license manufacturing AL-31Fs for more than a decade now,
1) What aspect of 3rd Gen SCB technology has Russia handed over to us i.e. are we able manufacture the SC Turbine blades and if yes, have the casting furnace/machines handed over to us by Russia?

2) Too sophisticated for the SDREs, is it? How about, telling us design and manufacturing aspect of multi-path inter-blade cooling air flow ducting (vis-a-vis Turbine Blade casting process)?

3) What aspect of compressor blade design and manufacturing technology have we got from Russia - i.e. blisk manufacturing knowhow so that some of the AL-31F compressor blisks can be manufactured in India?

4) Again if it's too sophisticated for the SDREs, how about letting us know the multi-circular-compressor blade designing (on Titanium would do, we would figure out other casted alloy types on our own) and, more importantly, the CFD code (and empirical values) of such blade geometry on, say, a 5 stage HPC.

5) What empirical data has Russia supplied to us (in form of AL-31F "knowhow" transfer) that would help us build a CFD model of supersonic flow between compressor stages - so that we can tinker with the compressor blade camber and arrive at a India-specific Flat-Rating concept?

6) Heck, did they give all the all performance parameters wrt to Thrust Rating/Throttle response/Fuel-feed-lag etc etc so that we can develop our own India specific FADEC for it?

7) I read from one of your/Austin's posts (I'm sure you must have read it as well) about Russian claim of >2K Kelvin TeT materials for the FGFA engine - good for them!! But since according to you Russians being so large hearted etc, how difficult will it be for them transfer the TBCs of say 1.8-1.9K Kelvin (temp differential of about 300-350deg would do, we being SDREs) grade - or atleast the material manufacturing and, more importantly, the application-process to SC Turbine blades.
etc etc.

Once you've answered these (pls note this is just a representative sample, I could have, and would ask more - but need free-time for that), we should be able to join you on your daily wailings about our piss-poor military turbofan development experience and how Super-duper Russians have tried to help us (but we still failed etc).

Oh between, I'm sure Chinese aero engines are absolutely cutting-edge (after all some harrumph tribe rep just visited it, and was impressed by the squeaky clean roads and brilliant infra - so engine tech much be of similar level of competence

- wasn't that your logic a posts back?) and are centuries ahead of us poor-and-dirty SDREs. Could you pls let us know what kind of Russian help, advertently or inadvertently (how convenient!!), was made available to them by our all-weather-friend for that level of spectacular progress.

Go ahead, get angry now ...

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 31 Jul 2013 11:16

Russian cheats took the money for ToT of T-90 gun barrel. Later after gulping down the money they refused flatly. So whatever agreement-shegriment signed with russkies mean zilch to them, we should be ready to see many similar reports regarding FGFA ToT too.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 31 Jul 2013 13:35

plus 1

Furture AMCA will be ultimately killed for F35 or some other imported mall

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 31 Jul 2013 18:25

Great. Russians are all cheats, so why are we still buying Sukhois,Talwars,Akulas,Smerch's,MI-17s,developing Brahmos,the MTA,etc.?
Please tell this to the MOD and service chiefs.I'm sure that they will put this analysis to very good use!

Regarding the SU-30MKI deal,I do not recollect anywhere that we were getting full TOT to licence manufacture the aircraft here.The aircraft was ordered when ACM Sareen was chief if I'm right,a long time ago.We have added onto the numbers steadily because of the delay in the LCA programme and time taken for the finalisation of the MMRCA contest.There was never a figure of 170+ Sukhois anticipated that far back,so don't ask me about the contours of the deal,engine tech transfer,ask the MOD/IAF for the same.The JV for the FGFA is supposed to be on a different plane (pardon the pun) altogether. Here is a recent report.

Indo-Russia arms joint venture to cost approx $35 billion

18 July 2013, New Delhi, Pinaki Bhattacharya

The Indo-Russian joint venture on the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) will end up costing the country two-and-half-times more than the originally estimated cost to be roughly about $15 billion. In effect the country would effectively pay close to $ 35 billion for the project.

The fighter aircraft will be a variant of the T-50 the Russians are flying as a foil for the American, F-22 Raptor that has already been mothballed on the issue of cost and the need. At the recent Air Show in Paris, the Russians announced that they have identified the right engine for the aircraft.

The Indian side is simultaneously having an internal audit, the sources say, along with the contract negotiations talks with the Russians. But knowledgeable sources say that the level of technological transference in the Russian FGFA project is so high that the cost borne 'by the country appears insignificant.'

He pointed out that the Americans manufacturers of the F-22, the Lockheed Martin Corporation, did not even share crucial details with the ‘cousins across the pond’ the British across the Atlantic.

The Indo-Russian project is also delayed. According to recent reports, the prototypes that were begun to arrive in India in 2014 will now be delayed. But Russian source say that India has diluted its demand for a two seater aircraft to a single seater.

New Delhi has already paid about $ 400 million to the Russians on the basis of the initial offering. That happened in 2012. The project was supposed to get go 2010. But the inevitable delay happened.

Secondly,where is the AMCA as of now? It exists only on paper and in model form.In no way is it going to eat into the already reduced number of FGFAs that we are getting in the JV,144..When we've taken 3 decades+ and have yet to deliver a single LCA MK-1,does any rational mind expect the AMCA to arrive in production anywhere before 2025 at the earliest-leaving only 10 yrs. for design,development to production stage? Which advanced nations have developed a stealth aircraft in so short a time? Even the FGFA has taken at least a decade-plus amount of work earlier.What is the timeframe that the Japanese and SoKos estimate,and they have also done a lot of advanced work on their stealth designs.Look at the continuing development challenges that exists with the JSF,for the world's most advanced aerospace nation. Even 2025 as a production target for the AMCA is being extremely optimistic,when we still cannot produce an engine or radar and work on the bird has been suspended until the LCA arrives.Given our track record on the other aircraft projects in the pipeline,such harebrained thinking is the height of optimism!

Fortunately,the IAF and MOD think otherwise.The need is not just indigenisation, but "equally" as was well put by an analyst to see that the services are equipped with hardware to deal with any contingency that might arise at any time. If the AMCA was around the corner,in an advanced stage of development with a prototype flying,by all means order as many as one can afford.By comparison,the Arjun MK-2 is shortly to undergo field trials.It is expected that these will be a success as many glitches have been reportedly ironed out with over 90 modifications.Once the trials are over,the IA should order several hundred so that at least 500+ Arjuns are in service -the minimum number needed to recover the investment.One can then also think of exports if the Germans will allow us to export it with their engine and not compete with their own MBTs.

Another earlier report.
http://indrus.in/articles/2012/09/18/fg ... 17717.html

To be sure, those are exactly the areas India and Russia will be working on in the months and years ahead. The IAF, for instance, has specified more than 40 improvements to the design following its observation of flying trials.

FGFA – Quantum leap for Indian aerospace
September 18, 2012 Rakesh Krishnan Simha
The signing of the Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter aircraft contract propels India to joint developer of the world’s most advanced stealth aircraft.

FGFA – Quantum leap for Indian aerospace
Russian fifth-generation fighter jet - Sukhoi T-50. Source: ITAR-TASS

Two significant developments have stirred up the world of military aviation this year. In March, the U.S. Air Force revealed it had started work to field a new Long Range Strike Bomber by the 2020s. This will be first new American strategic bomber to be built after the Cold War.

How much the global balance of power has shifted since the Cold War days was clear when it was revealed that the aircraft the American bomber might encounter in the skies will have a large Indian signature – in more ways than one. In August, the Indian Air Force announced that India and Russia are getting set to ink the final R&D contract for the Sukhoi T-50 fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) by the end of the year or early-2013. The contract is worth more than US$ 11 billion, and according to the terms of the agreement both countries will share 50 percent of the costs.
fgfa

View the infographic: Russian fifth-generation fighter jet

That the FGFA would fly was never in doubt. (To meet its air defence requirements, Russia was committed to the T-50 but as the American F-35 programme has demonstrated, having partners translates into assured orders.) The only uncertain component of the programme was the extent of Indian participation. In the past couple of years there was a lot of speculation – and derisive comments – about India’s involvement. Sceptics felt it was limited to merely offering suggestions as to what the IAF wanted – such as two seats or one – while the more charitable ones believed India’s contributions would be in avionics and software.

The IAF chief’s visit to Moscow last month finally lifted the veil of secrecy about India’s participation in the world’s most eagerly awaited fighter aircraft. It is now clear that Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd’s Ozar facility at Nashik in western India will get three prototypes in 2014, 2017 and 2019, and they will be flown by Indian test pilots.

India moves into the big league
Related:

FGFA: facing delay but worth waiting
Fifth generation fighters provide air superiority

What defence observers have missed is that the FGFA is a quantum leap for India’s armaments industry, especially HAL. After decades of dabbling in joint production – a euphemism for screwdriver technology – India’s aerospace sector will finally step up to joint development.

This will catapult India to a new level where it will finally be able to develop advanced stealth aircraft on its own. Not even America’s leading partners in the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter programme, such as Turkey or the UK, have access to such red hot technology. Instead of being a sidekick, India will be a joint partner in a leading military project.

Russia has already given the draft R&D contract to HAL. It will include the cost of designing, infrastructure build-up at Ozar, prototype development and flight testing. India will soon have scientists and test pilots based both in Russia and Ozar during the R&D phase up to 2019.

An IAF official told Jane’s that the jointly developed aircraft “draws upon the basic structural and system design of the Russian FGFA technology demonstrator with modifications to meet the IAF specifications, which are much more stringent”.

The IAF is hopeful production fighters will roll out of the factory gates by 2022. Up to 250 of these aircraft will be inducted at an estimated cost of $35 billion. Russia will buy a similar number. While it is never easy to place a price tag on such a constantly evolving platform, the IAF estimates the cost per plane at $100 million. The total cost, including options and the value of production aircraft, will make this the biggest defence programme ever in India’s history.

Potent threat

Although the T-50’s specifications remain classified, reports indicate it features advanced stealth capability and supersonic cruising speed. Here is what Air Power Australia says: “The stealthy T-50, albeit in an early phase of development, is showing naked air combat power in the form of extreme plus agility and persistence that, with the addition of advanced sensors, countermeasures and weapons, will likely soundly defeat the F-22 Raptor but will certainly annihilate the F-35 and the Super Hornet.”

This is an explosive statement but coming from ace aircraft experts, the FGFA portends a scary decade ahead for Western air defences and pilots.

Tuning the T-50

Clearly, the designers aren’t sitting idle. A series of developments suggests the FGFA has achieved irresistible propulsion. According to the website of Russia’s United Aircraft Group, which owns the Sukhoi bureau, the company has tested three T-50 prototypes in various modes, totalling around 180 sorties, including aerial refuelling hook-ups with a Russian Air Force Il-78 tanker, AESA radar scans, and large angle of attack and super manoeuvrability test flights.

Carlo Kopp of Air Power Australia and legendary aircraft analyst Bill Sweetman wonder whether the current T-50 represents the definitive configuration. “Today's round nozzles and the curvature of the aft nacelles are not at first glance stealth-optimised, and the engine is not fully masked head-on by the inlet duct,” they write in an article in Aviation Week.

To be sure, those are exactly the areas India and Russia will be working on in the months and years ahead. The IAF, for instance, has specified more than 40 improvements to the design following its observation of flying trials.

For instance, in the early stages of the programme, the IAF was keen on a two-seater fighter bomber, and in fact indicated a requirement for at least 166 single-seat and 48 twin-seat aircraft. But since then it has jettisoned that demand will go in for only single-seat jets now. The reason is that a second cockpit will compromise the stealth capabilities by at least 15 percent, apart from adding to the weight and reducing fuel capacity.

Exploring exports

Unlike the dollar-guzzling F-35 which perhaps wouldn’t fly without exports, the T-50 remains viable because of lower development costs and large pre-orders from Russia and India. Still exports can’t hurt. According to the IAF, the broad scope of bilateral cooperation during the joint project covers the design and development of the aircraft, its production and joint marketing to other countries.

The Centre for the Analysis of Strategies and Technologies (CAST), a Moscow-based independent defence and foreign policy think-tank, says that while India will be the first FGFA export customer, Vietnam will be probably its second buyer. CAST Director Ruslan Pukhov believes every third user of the Su-27/30 family of aircraft could be a customer for the FGFA.

Russia’s legacy

For both Russia and India the FGFA programme will be a bold new gambit, as it will overshadow even the highly successful BrahMos missile project. For, while BrahMos is also a 50:50 India-Russia venture, it is basically India’s baby; Russia has turned down an offer to buy the missile as it has the equally capable Club.

However, the FGFA programme could be a template for further defence cooperation between India and Russia. As its economy grows, India is increasingly seeking quality armaments for its armed forces and is keen to wean itself away from imports. Russia on the other hand has the knowhow and experience to produce highly capable weapons platforms. Together, they can ensure that legacy remains intact.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 31 Jul 2013 18:52

The issue is about the FGFA feeding the AMCA, that to some extent the AMCA is or can be dependent on the FGFA.

The AMCA is not. The AMCA is a stand alone effort and mature in its own right. Granted it is a "paper plane", but from a design point of view it is mature. The AMCA has gone through some three iterations and the current design is a result of some serious thinking and one that need not depend on the FGFA.

India was never involved in the "design" phase of the PAK-FA - so it knows nothing. Since the FGFA adopted the PAK-FA "design", again, India was never involved in the design - so she got nothing (from the "design" phase). In the FGFA India has become a great system integrator - at best. There is really nothing hard core to test - so the only other area where India could have really got something out of the FGFA deal, got nothing. (I have stated this for ages - the FGFA project is not worth it for the Indian design entities. The FGFA is GREAT for the IAF.)

ALSO, by the very definition of a "paper plane" - SO is the FGFA.

AND, take out the PAK-FA from the FGFA equation and the picture gets even worse. The FGFA being extremely dependent on the PAK-FA.

The AMCA has no such dependencies.

IF and when the FGFA comes IT WILL be the best aircraft in the IAF inventory.

IF and when the AMCA comes IT WILL be the best aircraft in the IAF inventory.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 31 Jul 2013 19:11

Yeah this ToT is bullsh*t. Just like mig-21 and jags. Nothing came out of it. We still don't have an adequate engine, source codes, competitive university system, and private players due to government policy and lobbying power of PSUs.