LCA News and Discussions

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2011 08:41

paveway is not a new offer, considering we purchased it earlier..it was always on the table if we needed more.

sudarshan is nearing completion so no urgent need for paveway at this point. Tejas can utilize existing paveway stocks for now.

we can look at purchase of the JSOW weapon latest mark - 22km at low alt, 130km at high alt or JASSM - that will reveal the true extent of the pyar mohabbat.

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 21 Jun 2011 09:50

^^^^ +1

By the time Tejas hits FOC, Sudarshan should be hopefully ready so we may not need to order any more Paveways than we already have.

Moreover, Derby is the designated BVR missile for Tejas until Astra arrives so there would be no need and urgency to use AIM-120.

So, that article seems to be nothing but a medium for Rathyeon to create some noise.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 21 Jun 2011 10:08

sudarshan has orders according to chacko.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jun 2011 10:19

I will post this in the imported weapons thread as well.

The offer by Reython for the Paveway is the surest sign that the Sudershan has reached maturity. The IAF will be well served to ignore this offer. The JSOW is a different issue. Lets hop that it is available to the IAF. Else the DRDO ought to launch an integrated air born Guided weapons programme. That will cater to all aspects of airborn combat.

A failure to do so will be revisiting the worst aspects of Indian Defense planning since the inception of the HF 24 programme.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 Jun 2011 10:45

raytheon makes the JSOW
LM makes the JASSM
Alenia marconi makes the diamongback range extention kit
Boeing makes a similar range extention kit.

[a] ask for evidence of pyar mohabbat by putting in a FMS request to procure a limited number (say 300) of JASSM as a deep strike DEAD weapon . in 10 years nirbhay should be there in air launched format , and mature enough to take over.

ask for evidence of pyar mohabbat to see if JSOW sale is cleared. another idea is work with israel to desify and locally produce the popeye-turbo (crystal maze) in significant numbers

[c] see if they will sell the range extention kit for the Sudarshan

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jun 2011 14:50

DRDO lists recent achievements in run up to outstanding achievement awards 2010

A Laser Seeker Kit – ‘SUDARSHAN’, for 1,000 pound bombs was developed and initial demand for significant number of seekers kits has been received from the users.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jun 2011 16:45

Chacko can you get the sources to quantify the demand?

I ask as the one of the recent Air chiefs has publicly stated that the IAF needs to hit arround 5000 targets in TSP during the initial stages of any future war. If target hit = target nutralised then they will need 5000+ weapons. if one bum = one hit.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jun 2011 17:54

Pratyush wrote:Chacko can you get the sources to quantify the demand?

I ask as the one of the recent Air chiefs has publicly stated that the IAF needs to hit arround 5000 targets in TSP during the initial stages of any future war. If target hit = target nutralised then they will need 5000+ weapons. if one bum = one hit.

IMO, it was 500 sites.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 21 Jun 2011 18:01

Chacko,

You mean 500 targets?

A site will have multiple targets, no?

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Jun 2011 18:09

http://www.assamtribune.com/scripts/det ... c2508/at01

AF ready to hit targets in Pak: Barbora
Correspondent
GUWAHATI, Dec 24 – Asserting that the Indian Air Force (IAF), in the event of a war against Pakistan, is ready to cause maximum damage to Pakistan, AOC-in-C, Western Air Command, Air Marshal PK Barbora today stated that the neighbouring country is in awe of the IAF armaments.

Barbora, in a startling revelation, stated that the IAF has already prepared a plan of attack and had identified over 5,000 specific targets in Pakistan.

Besides, special groups have been formed to hit specific targets of the enemy.

“Intelligence inputs gathered, especially post-Mumbai terror strikes, indicated that the neighbouring country is more concerned about the potent nature of the IAF than that of the Indian Army, in which it enjoys parity in strength,” Barbora said

“Pakistan does not have SU 30 MKI, which is considered as the most powerful of the fourth-generation aircraft,” Barbora stated, adding, “The IAF is intending to induct 200 such aircraft and it currently has 100 of them.”

Barbora stated that the IAF, which was the fourth largest airforce in the world, was also the fastest reacting force and in case a war was declared, it would take just a couple of hours for the force to man its security bases.

And as a point of comparison,

http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSA ... ab%20I.pdf

The original briefing slides for the US campaign against Iraq, which predicted 3000 aim points using 2100 aircraft sorties.

Barbora is referring to a proper strategic campaign, defanging Pakistan thoroughly. Thorough planning from the IAF side.

The IAF + Cold Start + naval blockade will bring Pakistan to its knees.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 21 Jun 2011 18:10

rajanb wrote:Chacko,

You mean 500 targets?

A site will have multiple targets, no?

yep, targets.

I searched it says 5000 targets

Anyway, the Sudarshan is a "laser kit" to be attached to bombs.

SriniY · Post by **SriniY** » 21 Jun 2011 18:14

5000 targets. wow. Even if say 2000 targets are to be taken out in the first few days of battle, that calls for about 1000 - 1500 sorties just for strikes. And then strike packages need escorts and there would be aircraft set aside for air-to-air just in case. Wonder if IAF can do such an intense bombing campaign given the current aircraft strengths it has.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Jun 2011 18:37

Why not. Barbora was clearly speaking of overall plans achievable via current inventory. Plus just look at the platforms operated by the IAF..

Long range strikers
140 Su-30 MKI, 100 + Jaguars, 50 Mirage 2000s
PGM capable platforms
140 Su-30 MKI, 60+ Jaguars, 50 Mirage 2000s, 40 MiG-27s, 125 Bisons
BVR equipped fighters (for escorts)
140 Su-30 MKI, 60+ MiG-29s, 123 Bisons, 50+ Mirage 2000s
CAS/Point defence
All the old MiG-21s, non upgraded MiG-27s, easily some 150 odd planes

Basically, without much ado and hype, the IAF has added substantial capabilities via the Su-30 MKI and Jaguar, MiG-27 Upgrades. From 1999 onwards, Mirage 2000s are fully A2G ops capable. The MiG-29 Upgrade has also begun (with 3 already upgraded) and DARIN-3 also cleared for the remaining Jaguars.

Just as a point of comparison while the PAF has been flexing its (non existent) muscles via near advertorials in AFM etc, it has only some 18 F-16s which can be classified as truly modern aircraft. Its so called modernized Mirages & their capability can be gauged from a recent interview where the PAF chief bemoaned that it was a tough challenge for him to keep the Mirage fleet functional.

Basically, the bulk of their fleet is made up of point defence aircraft (F-7s) with very limited AI radars and next to no capability in terms of ECM, with only basic RWR and chaff + flares.

The Mirages are their "high end" with ROSE-1 and ROSE-2 upgrades etc but even they have severe serviceability challenges. Note, unlike us, Pakistan never license produced these aircraft so it has issues in sourcing spares and equipment, with heavy reliance on France for the expensive spares.

Their first 30 odd JF-17s are basically A2G platforms and don't have full A2A BVR capability yet.

The PAF cannot even afford upgrades for their entire F-16 fleet so far and of 46 F-16 A/B including 14 ordered under EDA from the US, has reportedly funded for only some 26 upgrades so far out of the 60 initially planned for a possible fleet of 60 F-16s and 36 new build ones (of which it has only been able to afford 18).

Basically, we hit their F-16 fleet and few JF-17s, plus their AEW &C assets, and there will be substantial gaps in their AD network for our strike packages.

samverma · Post by **samverma** » 21 Jun 2011 18:39

chacko sir,

eons ago i vaguely remember (via BR) that one air force officer said that there are more than 1500 + targets.. cannot remember which topic it was under but will try to dig it out...nevertheless, 500 or 5000, doesn't matter..it did get me thinking about the time it will take to really neutralize TSP (at the border or inside their territory before the big daddy of all bums are used

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 21 Jun 2011 18:44

SriniY wrote:5000 targets. wow. Even if say 2000 targets are to be taken out in the first few days of battle, that calls for about 1000 - 1500 sorties just for strikes. And then strike packages need escorts and there would be aircraft set aside for air-to-air just in case. Wonder if IAF can do such an intense bombing campaign given the current aircraft strengths it has.

Agree Srini. Which is why I have always been an advocate of a 50 squadron strong IAF.
There has to be speed, shock and awe.

Besides the 5000 targets, the Army and Navy will have their own. To compress the timeframe, we will have to make extensive use of Brahmos, Prithvi and whatever other missiles we have, advertised or not.

Thanks karan. Good post.

SriniY · Post by **SriniY** » 21 Jun 2011 18:57

AFAIK, PA and PAF maintain a huge inventory of SAM's for this very purpose.

it might be also possible that 5000 is the total list of targets, and probably a good portion could be taken out with long range artillery.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Jun 2011 19:07

IAF Force disparity viz PAF is the most tangible.

Over next five years we'll be adding:

-130 Su-30 MKIs (and then beginning upgrade for the first aircraft to Super 30 standard) and Brahmos-A on 44 MKIs
-around 3-5 AEW&C
-some 100 radars of different types
-around 17 squadrons of SAMs ( Akash & Spyder)
- at least 18 MMRCA (deliveries from 2014 onwards)
- 40 LCA MK1 (and deliveries of LCA MK2 after that, another 6-7 squadrons)
- upgrade some 60 each of MiG-29 and Jaguars
- add some 80 Mi-17s, 20 odd LCH (out of 65)
- complete deliveries of WSI ALH

Meanwhile PAFs "amazing" plans are
- induct some 30 odd upgrades of F-16s
- add some 50 JF-17 (which will have to replace their oldest Mirages, A-5 squadrons)
- add some 4 IFR
- add some 30 odd J-10s (for which they have no money currently so plan is on hold)

Basically the PAF - despite all its bluff and bluster via magazine articles by sympathetic journos - is in crisis. It needs extensive recapitalization to replace its thoroughly obsolete F-7 and hard to maintain Mirage 3/Vs, but is hard pressed to even buy the JF-17 on its own. And the JF-17 is nowhere in the class of a Su-30 MKI or MMRCA. It needs handholding from AEW&C and IFR to even compete in any fashion, and these assets will be primary targets of the IAF in any air war. About the only thing positive for the PAF is its purchase of the Erieye & ZDK-03 AEW&C platforms, but they will be attacked in concentrated fashion by the IAF

As a sidenote about PAF's lack of geographical depth. With our Aerostats we can see deep into Pakistan and know what they are upto almost all the time. For the PAF to do likewise, it will have to use up valuable airframe time on its AEW&C platforms. But with IAF's MAFI going on, IAF can simply conduct exercises or critical activities 300 odd km away from the Pak border and PAF will be hard pressed to find out. The PAF has to work that much harder to counter a larger foe. And the economic, technology, training and geography edge is increasingly with India. Which is not to say the PAF is a pushover, but its clearly nowhere near the IAF in overall capability.

Over time, this disparity will just increase, I mean, just compare the two MMRCA jets to any of the PAF planes. The IAF (per Ashley Tellis) even rejected the F-16 because the CFT equipped planes were not optimal in air to air combat. The PAF's best fighters are the F-16 Block 50/52 and not only do they lack advanced AESAs but they also lack the AIM-9X for WVR, and have earlier generation AIM-9M. Basically, they cannot afford state of the art equipment. In contrast, India has R-73Es on even MiG-21 Bisons and will get 5G missiles with MMRCA and for LCA and other programs. While potent platforms, the PAF F-16s are behind current 4G+ platforms and can be compared to our MiG-29 Upgrade. And their limited numbers reduce their utility. India is aiming for 126 (plus 63 options) for MMRCA while the PAF can apparently, field around 64 F-16s (that if they can afford all 42 F-16 A/Bs getting upgrades). Add Sukhois, LCAs, FGFA etc to the mix, and the PAF cannot compete.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 21 Jun 2011 19:18

SriniY wrote:AFAIK, PA and PAF maintain a huge inventory of SAM's for this very purpose.

What inventory of what SAMs?

They have limited numbers of obsolescent SA-2 knockoffs. These are so out of place in todays battlefield, they have probably been withdrawn.

Next, they have a handful of Crotale, RBS-70 and SPADA-2000 units. All of these will be subject to EW, SEAD (via Harpy strikes, Kh-31 strikes). The heaviest SAM cover will be around strategic assets - places like Sargodha AFB, their munitions complexes, C3I nodes. The IAF may not even attack these with aircraft. Which is why the Brahmos-A is being developed, which is why the IAF operates the Prithvi-2 variant.

All these SAMS btw, are of the 10-30 km slant range variety, in fact lesser, including their Chinese MANPADS (man portable missiles like the Anza). They can do nothing against aircraft flying at medium altitudes out of the envelope.

Note Barbora's mention of special groups. Heavily defended targets will get heavy attention

it might be also possible that 5000 is the total list of targets, and probably a good portion could be taken out with long range artillery.

if you see what Barbora said again, it is clear it is the IAF specific target list. The lack of Pakistans geographic depth is the real issue for them. They have nowhere to run.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 21 Jun 2011 19:43

Just like the "quick" (look ahead) turn around tank-ex, we could come up with LCA++Mk3, that is twin kaveri engined and matches the MTOW of medium combat specs. I am sure this LCA-twin engine would fine lot of interest in IAF, and stand as a baseline for aMCA.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 21 Jun 2011 20:17

Notwithstanding IAF's formidable array of planes and weapons available before it, don't forget that IAF lost three aircrafts to puny mujahideen equipped with obsolete SAM weapons.

So I wouldn't get overcocky on IAF's ability to dominate Pakistan airspace just yet.

saip · Post by **saip** » 21 Jun 2011 20:27

Hitesh wrote:Notwithstanding IAF's formidable array of planes and weapons available before it, don't forget that IAF lost three aircrafts to puny mujahideen equipped with obsolete SAM weapons.

So I wouldn't get overcocky on IAF's ability to dominate Pakistan airspace just yet.

Also, don't forget that a few dozen jihadis held the mighty Indian army at bay until Paki's great leaders relented and asked them to withdraw

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Jun 2011 20:35

Hitesh wrote:Notwithstanding IAF's formidable array of planes and weapons available before it, don't forget that IAF lost three aircrafts to puny mujahideen equipped with obsolete SAM weapons.

So I wouldn't get overcocky on IAF's ability to dominate Pakistan airspace just yet.

It is quite surprising that such misconceptions are still prevalent regarding Kargil War!

The 3 aircrafts that you are talking about were Mig-21, Mig-27 and a helicopter (Mi-17). And among that, Mig-27 was lost due to mechanical failure. The Mig-21, flown by Sq Ldr Ahuja, was trying to locate the crashed Mig-27. Sq Ldr Ahuja was knowingly taking a very great risk by flying over highly dangerous area. Unfortunately, luck was not on his side at that time and his aircraft was hit. Regarding Mi-17, when a transport helicopters are flying like a brick without any countermeasure at altitude of 16-17K feet, I would say that the loss of only a single helicopter was nothing short of an impressive feat.
Kargil War posed singular and incomparable challenges for IAF. No where in the history of warfare had an AF had to perform strike operations at this height. The aircrafts essentially became flying bricks, the LGBs were not designed to be dropped from that height, attack helicopters could not provide support at that altitude etc. I really hope you would do some basic read up on the subject.

And regarding puny "mujahideen".....

It is really sad that even people who visit sites like BR (and are thus assumed to be interested in Indian Defence) can make these kinds of statements and show such great ignorance about such an important and recent event. So I will not really be surprised if some Indians seriously say what saip wrote in sarcasm.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jun 2011 20:53

There are area targets and point targets. Area targets eg vehicle depots etc. need multiple hits with dumb bombs. Point targets like hangers, radar stations etc need precision strike.

So to destroy area targets you need tonnage. A measure is tonnage/area of CEP of dumb bomb delivery. Sya 10m for low level and 30m for high level delivery. Average 20m accuracy.

Wahts the radius of effectiveness for a 450 kg bomb? 30m?
To destroy point targets you need precsion weapons. Assume 3 strikes to take out two targets due to lack of heavy ordnance like 1000Kg bombs.
Of the 5000 targets assume there are distributed 60:40.
Assume four sorties per day.
Allocate the number of planes, keeping a strategic reserve for Eastern Command to hedge for PRC intervention, to get the number of days. Now multiply the figure by 25% for contingency and SDRE effect.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jun 2011 21:41

ramana wrote:There are area targets and point targets. Area targets eg vehicle depots etc. need multiple hits with dumb bombs. So to destroy area targets you need tonnage.

Not multiple hits with dumb bombs, but cluster bombs like -

1. BL755 that came with the Jaguar & India has been locally manufacturing since the 80's,
2. Matra Belouga standoff submunition dispenser that came with Mirage 2000
3. Betab that came with Su30
4. The 510 nos of US submunition dispenser recently acquired whose name eludes me for the moment
5. Long range rockets like S-8 that Tejas will be shortly qualified with
6. The Prithvi too carries extensive submunitions warheads

The Belouga is especially unique in that is fired like a missle and it overflies the target peppering it with submunitions while the launch aircraft stands off.

Kits like Paveway/Griffin/Sudarshan can be easily added to submunition dispensers. Rather, submunition dispensers can be easily designed to use Paveway/Griffin/Sudarshan kits.

IAF has factored area targets too in the list.

Fiza'ya on the other hand, is dependent on what PLAAF can spare after its modernization. The Chinese need every J-10 produced to replace its ageing fleet, and I doubt Fiza'ya will get any in a jiffy.

The Su-30 is replacing the MiG21M/bis/Bison, the MMRCA will replace MiG27 and the Tejas will be the line replacement for older Jaguars. By the end of this decade, the only legacy fighters on the flight line will be late build Jaguars, upgraded Mirage 2000 and MiG29 and those will be replaced by FGFA starting next decade.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 21 Jun 2011 21:51

tsarkar wrote: ...
4. The 510 nos of US submunition dispenser recently acquired whose name eludes me for the moment
.....

CBU-105 Sensor Fused weapon. Supposed to be equipped on the Jags IIRC. The submunitions are designed to detect tanks and other vehicles though, so these would be useful against armored columns and truck convoys.

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Jun 2011 22:01

don't forget that IAF lost three aircrafts to puny mujahideen equipped with obsolete SAM weapons.

Wow, somehow feel that walked into a Zaid Hamid website all of a sudden!!!

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 21 Jun 2011 22:01

Gaur wrote:
Hitesh wrote:Notwithstanding IAF's formidable array of planes and weapons available before it, don't forget that IAF lost three aircrafts to puny mujahideen equipped with obsolete SAM weapons.

So I wouldn't get overcocky on IAF's ability to dominate Pakistan airspace just yet.
It is quite surprising that such misconceptions are still prevalent regarding Kargil War!

The 3 aircrafts that you are talking about were Mig-21, Mig-27 and a helicopter (Mi-17). And among that, Mig-27 was lost due to mechanical failure. The Mig-21, flown by Sq Ldr Ahuja, was trying to locate the crashed Mig-27. Sq Ldr Ahuja was knowingly taking a very great risk by flying over highly dangerous area. Unfortunately, luck was not on his side at that time and his aircraft was hit. Regarding Mi-17, when a transport helicopters are flying like a brick without any countermeasure at altitude of 16-17K feet, I would say that the loss of only a single helicopter was nothing short of an impressive feat.
Kargil War posed singular and incomparable challenges for IAF. No where in the history of warfare had an AF had to perform strike operations at this height. The aircrafts essentially became flying bricks, the LGBs were not designed to be dropped from that height, attack helicopters could not provide support at that altitude etc. I really hope you would do some basic read up on the subject.

Hence Murphy's law at work. My point is that even with our local air superiority over the Kargil area, we still suffered some losses. All this talk about dominating PAF in previous posts smacks of jingoistic talk and doesn't really work well with the professional attitude of IAF pilots and brass. To be a truly professional military aviator, you take nothing for granted and plan for the worst. I don't think PAF will be such a roll over as some prior posts suggest.

And regarding puny "mujahideen".....

Just to highlight what a few dedicated militants can do against the prowess of IAF in the battlefield. Murphy's law at work.

It is really sad that even people who visit sites like BR (and are thus assumed to be interested in Indian Defence) can make these kinds of statements and show such great ignorance about such an important and recent event. So I will not really be surprised if some Indians seriously say what saip wrote in sarcasm.

And it is really said that some people miss the point of not falling into jingoistic talk.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jun 2011 22:03

^^^Given the number and type of sub-munition dispensers, I have a nice feeling that the armored formations of ARN and ARS of TSPA are going to get loads of loooooove and attention from IAF!!!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 21 Jun 2011 22:05

Hitesh wrote:

And regarding puny "mujahideen".....

Just to highlight what a few dedicated militants can do against the prowess of IAF in the battlefield. Murphy's law at work.

<SNIP>

sum · Post by **sum** » 21 Jun 2011 22:08

Just to highlight what a few dedicated militants can do against the prowess of IAF in the battlefield

NLI+ tons of SSG + units of Baloch all equipped with their best equipment = militants?

sivab · Post by **sivab** » 21 Jun 2011 22:12

sum wrote:
Just to highlight what a few dedicated militants can do against the prowess of IAF in the battlefield
NLI+ tons of SSG + units of Baloch all equipped with their best equipment = militants?

Nah. Freedom fighters.

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 21 Jun 2011 22:13

trekking your way up to the heights of the himilayas with nothing but your personal weapons, radio, food, and water, and some shelter, and manage to bring down a fighter is an impressive feat despite the background of these fighters.

My point is this: overconfidence and overcockiness will cause you to overlook some advantages that the enemy may have or possess. Don't underestimate the power of Murphy's law.

If you are thinking that I am rooting for PAF or PA, I am not. But that doesn't mean that I am gonna be wildly cheering IAF's prowess or fall into a Tom Clancyesque behavior where a US submarine will sink an entire PLAN fleet or some ridiculous farfetch scenario.

PAF is still a potent force to be reckoned when it comes to battle over sky superiority or air denial.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 21 Jun 2011 22:15

sum wrote:
Just to highlight what a few dedicated militants can do against the prowess of IAF in the battlefield
NLI+ tons of SSG + units of Baloch all equipped with their best equipment = militants?

No sir,
They are "dedicated" militants.. They are dedicated to honour their country's long standing traditions...

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 21 Jun 2011 22:18

Hitesh,

When Indian sailors aboard Jalashwa were fainting from noxious fumes, their officer jumped in without donning gas mask saying his men wouldnt survive the time it'll take him & others to don gas mask & protective suits. He died. Similar thinking made Ajay Ahuja enter Stinger bubble searching for Nachiket. This kind of thinking/attitude is the difference between warriors and an assasin.

I fully agree with you that needless jingoism obfuscates thinking, and every other post of mine emphasizes that.

However, excessive caution, like 1965 ammunition depletion scare, is also unwarranted.

The good thing in recent times is that we're thinking, planning and preparing for war and winning and not just vaguely "defending our borders". In the past, except for Manekshaw & Sunderji tenures, we didnt put in such thinking and preparations.

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 21 Jun 2011 22:32

Hitesh sir,
Let me ask this frankly.. Do you really think that our air force is really that unprofessional force that they do not factor some losses that will be caused by a very professional, albeit poorly equipped, force???
Please have some faith on our Air force to factor these kind of things when they develop a war plan..

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 21 Jun 2011 22:47

Hitesh wrote: My point is this: overconfidence and overcockiness will cause you to overlook some advantages that the enemy may have or possess. Don't underestimate the power of Murphy's law.

If you are thinking that I am rooting for PAF or PA, I am not. But that doesn't mean that I am gonna be wildly cheering IAF's prowess or fall into a Tom Clancyesque behavior where a US submarine will sink an entire PLAN fleet or some ridiculous farfetch scenario.

PAF is still a potent force to be reckoned when it comes to battle over sky superiority or air denial.

So, what's your point? That anything can go wrong? That we should not underestimate our enemies? Wow! Thats some deep thinking. I am sure that it will come as a revelation to Indian Armed Forces. Till now, everyone thought we "should" underestimate our enemy.

This has become a common behaviour here. A person makes a truly stupid, ignorant and arrogant statement here. Then, when his mistake is pointed out, he hides behind such obvious statements like "anything can go wrong"...."you should not underestimate your enemies". So what's new? That's obvious to everyone.

And what really gets my goat is that you continue to preach your high wisdom even after you insult the sacrifices made by our soldiers. You cannot even write a single line on Kargil War (you don't even know who we were fighting!) , the single most important event in India's recent history. And after insulting all the sacrifices made by Ahuja, Nachiketa and others by implying them to be incompetent, you maintain your smug arrogance and preach everyone Confucius sermons!

BTW, this is my last post to you. I would rather not increase my BP because of your smug ignorance.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 21 Jun 2011 22:56

To add to tsarkar's post, Nachiketa went for a second pass in order to deliver his remaining ordnance, despite strict orders not to go for second pass as enemy can target him, to relieve the pressure on the ground.

Tsarkar, Looks like the BL755 have the same profile as the 450 kg iron bomb!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BL755

So the Sudharshan can guide them from far and avoid fuzing issues!

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 21 Jun 2011 23:05

Gaur, please spare me your indignation and jingoistic attitude. I am fully aware of who we were fighting. I have been on this forum when the Kargil War happened and I went over reports and tidbits on this forum.

I take it that you are too dense to understand what I am talking about. I guess you are being jingoistic and cannot take any criticism no matter how constructive it is, at face value and must argue ad nauseum.

In case you miss it, air superiority is not a given and trust me, I have always given and will continue to give IAF great credit for their professionalism attitude. My criticism was not aimed at them, but at the various posters who display typical fanboy attitudes without fully thinking of the situation.

Tsarkar,

I understand that we cannot be too cautious. I fully agree that we need to be aggressive. However my point was aimed at those posters who think the PAF will be a cakewalk. It is not. I am merely highlighting the lack of respect for our enemy's prowess and how that lack of respect can undermine our goals that we are striving for.

I am fully aware that Nachiketa went for a second pass and suffered an engine flame out. And that the helicopter was operating at such an altitude that was not meant to be operated, something that the IAF did not anticipate in the beginning but adapted well later on after learning their mistake. But it goes to illustrate my point. Murphy's law means that we will be faced with unexpected situations and some of them means that things won't go in IAF's favor. For example, our greatest threat is not the PAF's fighters but the missiles and planes capable of launching nuclear weapons. When we initiate a conflict with Pakistan, we have no choice but to overwhelm PAF and dominate the pakistan airspace and completely obliterate Pakistan's nuclear facilities and nuclear weapons caches. Right now, I just don't see IAF having that ability to pull it off. We do not have enough assets nor enough AEW&C assets or cruise missiles assets.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 21 Jun 2011 23:09

Notwithstanding IAF's formidable array of planes and weapons available before it, don't forget that IAF lost three aircrafts to puny mujahideen equipped with obsolete SAM weapons.
So I wouldn't get overcocky on IAF's ability to dominate Pakistan airspace just yet

Its shameful to see this on BR - an excess even by DDM standards

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 21 Jun 2011 23:23

Hitesh: Does Murphy's Law apply to you as well? Dude, you need to relax. Stop jumping on people just because they disagree with you. No one is suggesting that it is going to be a cake walk against the Pakistan Air Force, but in a full scale IAF operation...their survival beyond week two is highly in doubt. They just don't have the numbers or the capability to erode the supremacy that the IAF has. We will lose aircraft, but losses are taken into account.