PAK-FA and FGFA: News & Discussion - June 2014

Hitesh · Post by **Hitesh** » 24 Jun 2016 10:48

Forget the PAK-FA. Pour all that money into the AMCA program. I am more convinced than now ever that we need to stop going for expensive imported fighter programs. We need to seriously pour all our research funds into our indigenous program such as the AMCA. The AMCA program should be a supercruise twin engined 5th generation fighter with internal bays that is capable of carrying 6 missiles for 1st day knock down the door capability. I am somewhat dubious of the long term utility that stealth brings us. Reports of nightmarish maintenance issues with F-22 and the associated staggering costs to keep those planes flying has convinced me that stealth at the expense of everything else is not a viable long term plan. If we need to attack highly sensitive highly defended sites, I think we are better off designing stealth UCAVs that can take out those sites and radar sites. With those radar sites gone, air dominance becomes quite possible. If we establish 1st day knock down the door capabilities and UCAVs, stealth becomes a secondary requirement and EW capabilities, sensor fusion, payload capability, range capability take on more importance.

srin · Post by **srin** » 25 Jun 2016 17:51

The very thought that we could contribute to the T-50 needs to be questioned. That is only going to delay it because honestly as someone who is desperate for "ToT" with only one aircraft designed recently, we just don't have the skills. The only we will get it would be the hard slog and heavy investments into basic sciences and test facilities (for engines, for RCS computation etc). And LCA and later the AMCA would be the ideal avenues for that. The best thing from the T-50 that we can hope for would to be an "observer" in development and get access to the test data.

At the same time, we can't wait for 15 years for the AMCA. The IAF needs to have a fifth-generation (or 4.9999 generation if at that) way earlier than that. So get the PAK-FA manufactured here as soon as possible (even without the next-gen engines) and then gradually MKI'ize and call it FGFA or whatever.

I don't see any other feasible way out. One wild idea may be to acquire a stake in MiG corp to advance AMCA design ...

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 25 Jun 2016 21:10

This is a PMO call, not a tech transfer, nor to fill numbers for the IAF.

The IAF has clearly rejected it, not said so openly as yet, but through other sources (granted that have been questioned).

The Indian labs lost interest sometime back - due to the %age of participation.

PMO has a larger picture to paint.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 25 Jun 2016 22:56

srin wrote: The IAF needs to have a fifth-generation (or 4.9999 generation if at that) way earlier than that.
...

This is not exactly correct. Name a military objective(tactical or strategic) and I will give you a dozen ways to achive it without the use of fifth gen aircraft.

Infact this is precisely the thinking that leads to wrong decisions.

The selection of rafael instead of more LCA Tejas MK1s is one such decision.

dkhare · Post by **dkhare** » 24 Aug 2016 21:03

Link from Janes.com about Russian PAKFA and India FGFA titled:

Perspectives on the Multi-Role Fighter Russian / Indian Fifth Generation Ambitions:
http://bcove.me/ywmdot5f

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 28 Aug 2016 08:08

Russian military expert comparing F-35 and T-50 (PAK-FA) and Chinese 5g fighter (English subtitles)
Most difficult part is engine ( Even 9 Women cannot make baby in one month)

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 28 Aug 2016 12:24

^^^ Excellent discussions from Russia POV. Interesting insights. Thank you for posting.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 03 Sep 2016 23:00

Prem wrote:Russian military expert comparing F-35 and T-50 (PAK-FA) and Chinese 5g fighter (English subtitles)
Most difficult part is engine ( Even 9 Women cannot make baby in one month)

Phallacy (sic). 9 women can indeed can make baby in one month. They just can't deliver them.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 09 Sep 2016 08:49

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... s?from=mdr

India and Russia agree on details of new joint production of fifth generation fighter aircraft

NEW DELHI: After several months of hectic negotiations on technical details, India and Russia are ready with a detailed work-share agreement for joint production of a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Russia will now share critical new generation aircraft technologies as part of a deal that would include production of over 100 fighters in India. "From a preliminary documents that was barely two dozen pages, we have agreed on a 650 page detailed plan that specifies exactly what all will be shared," the official said. Unlike in the past when a broad agreement would be signed on fighter deals like the Su 30 MKI contract, this time around Indian negotiators have gone deep into details of the joint production plan. The project got a boost last year from Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar after being on the brink of collapse.The signing of the work share agreement is expected shortly, with India committing to invest $4 billion over the coming years to develop a tailor-made version of the fighter. One of the major concerns of the Indian side was the development of a new jet engine for the fighter and its weapons package.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Sep 2016 13:08

If we intend to waste money on PAKFA then we should at least do deep indigenisation and broad manufacturing. Better to order 300 PAKFA in one go and set up adequate manufacturing, repair, maintenance facilities as well manufacture required spare parts. Piece meal orders only benefits Russia as seen from Su-30MKI

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2016 13:21

This is a v.welcome development is the report is accurate,that the nuts and bolts have been dissected in detail and will be incorporated into the agreement.Previous deals across the board during the UPA's time suffered from the after-sales aspect.With the recent expose of PLAAF testing its stealth bird in Tibet,this deal sealed will not come too soon.It will continue to give us the qualitative edge over both China and Pak.However,the numbers factor must be also taken care of through rapid serial production of the LCA.

habal · Post by **habal** » 09 Sep 2016 13:44

how many platforms does India seek to have ? Even USofA, the evil genius, has just 3-4 main fighter platforms operational, F-18, F-15, F-16 (to be phased out with F-35), F-22.

Aur apna haal dekho until 2020,
MiG-29
MiG-21
MiG-27
Jaguar
Rafale
M2K
Su-30
LCA
PakFa

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 09 Sep 2016 14:14

The MIG-27 and non Bison variants will no longer be in service and it is debatable whether the first FGFAs will be in service by then.Perhaps a few and if so they will be to Ru MK-1 std.A decade from now we may see the upgraded MIG-29s,M2Ks and Jaguars also on the cusp of replacement,that's if LCA production has accelerated.But these constitute about 200+ aircraft and replacing them with a single type will be both challenging and expensive.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 09 Sep 2016 14:32

Very interesting development.

India and Russia agree on details of new joint production of fifth generation fighter aircraft

NEW DELHI: After several months of hectic negotiations on technical details, India and Russia are ready with a detailed work-share agreement for joint production of a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Russia will now share critical new generation aircraft technologies as part of a deal that would include production of over 100 fighters in India. "From a preliminary documents that was barely two dozen pages, we have agreed on a 650 page detailed plan that specifies exactly what all will be shared," the official said. Unlike in the past when a broad agreement would be signed on fighter deals like the Su 30 MKI contract, this time around Indian negotiators have gone deep into details of the joint production plan. The project got a boost last year from Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar after being on the brink of collapse.The signing of the work share agreement is expected shortly, with India committing to invest $4 billion over the coming years to develop a tailor-made version of the fighter. One of the major concerns of the Indian side was the development of a new jet engine for the fighter and its weapons package.

Apparently we've finally dropped this pie-in-the-sky ambition of co-developing an FGFA and accepted the reality that we'll be carrying out local license assembly for the PAK FA (eventually graduating to partial production).

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Sep 2016 16:21

From where did the red rear come from? Is this a visual stealth or art?

same ET source linked [http://www.defencenews.in/article/India ... India-8015]

same concerns remain

One of the major concerns of the Indian side was the development of a new jet engine for the fighter and its weapons package.

I think the joint production plan, we have to look at augmenting our robotic manufacturing and improving the jigs to support LCA, AMCA and PAKFA. We can see big bang effect in production engineering only then

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Sep 2016 16:35

Manohar has NOT shown any real negotiating skills. No import deal has brought in any important or major ToT while no major indigenous project has been cleared. RAJIV Gandhi did a better job with F404 engine and host of other defence deals while Narsimha Rao did good with Su-30MKI deal or SSNs. Pettifogging and good administration is different from visionary steps. He is better than Anthony but that bar is tooooooo low.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Sep 2016 17:16

habal wrote:how many platforms does India seek to have ? Even USofA, the evil genius, has just 3-4 main fighter platforms operational, F-18, F-15, F-16 (to be phased out with F-35), F-22.

Aur apna haal dekho until 2020,
MiG-29
MiG-21
MiG-27
Jaguar
Rafale
M2K
Su-30
LCA
PakFa

AMCA.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Sep 2016 17:34

Gyan wrote:Manohar has NOT shown any real negotiating skills. No import deal has brought in any important or major ToT while no major indigenous project has been cleared. RAJIV Gandhi did a better job with F404 engine and host of other defence deals while Narsimha Rao did good with Su-30MKI deal or SSNs. Pettifogging and good administration is different from visionary steps. He is better than Anthony but that bar is tooooooo low.

MP has spent most of his time during the last two years on untangling the mess created by AKA over 10 years. Just unwinding the MMRCA deal while keeping the France-India relationship on track was nerve-wracking. He has signed the LEMOA which should facilitate DTTI.

BTW, as discussed earlier, no foreign deal is going to bring in this fabled 'ToT' we keep talking about. Even if get this 'ToT' we don't do anything with it except pay for it. The only way to have real ToT, is to let FDI create an ecosystem as is being suggested by LM and Boeing and even SAAB. The ecosystem transfers knowledge at a very granular level (show how). Buying manuals doesn't cut it. We won't get ToT from Russia either except that they don't want to/can't make in India because they have no clue on supply chains to begin with—witness the half built frigates at Yantar that they want to sell us cheap: no engines.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Sep 2016 17:37

habal wrote:how many platforms does India seek to have ? Even USofA, the evil genius, has just 3-4 main fighter platforms operational, F-18, F-15, F-16 (to be phased out with F-35), F-22.

Aur apna haal dekho until 2020,
MiG-29
MiG-21
MiG-27
Jaguar
Rafale
M2K
Su-30
LCA
PakFa

We're in a camel race with the Egyptian AF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... _Air_Force

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 09 Sep 2016 18:01

Viv S wrote:Very interesting development.

India and Russia agree on details of new joint production of fifth generation fighter aircraft

NEW DELHI: After several months of hectic negotiations on technical details, India and Russia are ready with a detailed work-share agreement for joint production of a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA). Russia will now share critical new generation aircraft technologies as part of a deal that would include production of over 100 fighters in India. "From a preliminary documents that was barely two dozen pages, we have agreed on a 650 page detailed plan that specifies exactly what all will be shared," the official said. Unlike in the past when a broad agreement would be signed on fighter deals like the Su 30 MKI contract, this time around Indian negotiators have gone deep into details of the joint production plan. The project got a boost last year from Defence Minister Manohar Parrikar after being on the brink of collapse.The signing of the work share agreement is expected shortly, with India committing to invest $4 billion over the coming years to develop a tailor-made version of the fighter. One of the major concerns of the Indian side was the development of a new jet engine for the fighter and its weapons package.
Apparently we've finally dropped this pie-in-the-sky ambition of co-developing an FGFA and accepted the reality that we'll be carrying out local license assembly for the PAK FA (eventually graduating to partial production).

So what exactly would this get us over and above a F-16/F35 make in India proposal made by LM and ditto Boeing? WHere's the crucial ecosystem?

The way it reads is we plunk down much dinero for manuals in Russian and the ecosystem is a set of 12 screwdrivers which we must get separately from the Ukraine. This whole PAKFA stuff is foregoing the bird in hand (squadron strength) for a bird which may land in the bush somewhere in the galaxy.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 09 Sep 2016 18:29

First and foremost, India is the financier. A role from the start.

The question is how much of the IP is transferred over. I would expect Russia to protect as much as possible. Has MP managed to get enough to get the Indian MIC rolling in the right direction is the question.

I suspect he has done more than just duplicating the PAK-FA. My gut feel is that the Indian plane will look like the Russian, but will be substantially different. The main concern I have is (still) the engine.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 09 Sep 2016 20:58

The Indian $4 billion payment to Russia for the FGFA IMO is the result of Russian arm twisting linking the fate of the FGFA to other platforms that India really wants i.e. S400 and the 2nd Akula lease. The Russians IMO have said that you get all three or none. So the $4 B for the FGFA is money that India is throwing at a wall. If it sticks, India gets something out of it. If the FGFA is a disaster India will write off the money as the cost of doing business with Russia and getting the S400 and the 2nd Akula lease.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 09 Sep 2016 22:46

Either we get twisted by Amreeka or Russeeka. One by taming the lion, and the other by caging the tiger (India being the cat).

We never think about parallel R&D into these areas, and wherever we did.. we get stuck - example Kaveri, due to pathetic mgmt more than technical issues

Bheeshma · Post by **Bheeshma** » 09 Sep 2016 23:09

Why not Indian BMD instead of S-400? And more Arihants instead of Akula. What happened to the 6 SSN's and had Phase-I of BMD been implemented?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 09 Sep 2016 23:41

How come the whole world is able to arm twist India? Or that it is the standard spin given for dubious deals?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Sep 2016 01:31

My concern is that much like the Vik, this will arrive too late and will like the original MiG 29, be a hangar queen with engine problems that are fobbed off by Russians as FOD and stupid Indian mechanics etc. I'd rather we spend monies on upgrading (ourselves) the MKIs into Silent Sukhois.

The PAK/FA will have an initial availability rate that is less than the initial MKIs. Almost guaranteed given Russian track record.

My biggest fear OTOH, is that chokes off funding for the AMCA. We are just not going to be able to afford LCAs, Rafales, and PAK/FAs

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 10 Sep 2016 01:32

Gyan wrote:How come the whole world is able to arm twist India? Or that it is the standard spin given for dubious deals?

It's what APJ Kalam once said: "we've been a doormat for 2500 years".

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 10 Sep 2016 16:26

correct. when you can do it by yourself, you are at the mercy of the supplier

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 11 Sep 2016 10:57

Look at Su-30MKI deal. It is humungous. Worth around USD 20 Billion for aircraft & ground support equipment, USD 20 Billion for spares, USD 10 Billion for potential upgrades etc ie around 50 Billion dollars apart from weapon costs. But the capital investment to absorb technology is measly USD 500 Million vs USD 50,000 Million for imports.

If we are going to go for useless PAKFA imports, then atleast 10% of the deal should be invested in manufacture of aircraft, simulators, spares etc. My fear is that this is going to be another screwdriver assembly. JV is being used as buzzword for milking money in the name of R&D but it's just a disguised import or licensed assembly. The potential worth of deal is USD 4 Billion for so called R&D, 100x100=10 Billion for first 100 aircraft which can go upto USD 30-60 Billion, spares of equal amount etc etc. S anything between USD 25 to 200 Billion over 40-60 years. Therefore I say we must invest atleast USD 2 Billion at the OUTSET for setting up production line of aircraft, spares, simulators with deep indigenisation of radar, engines, avionics, gearbox, hydraulics, actuators, ejection seats etc not to mention we must produce spares like tyres, bearings, lubricants etc.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 13 Sep 2016 17:29

http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/india-an ... -aircraft/

another link that points about this is much like MKI

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Sep 2016 20:36

SaiK wrote:http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/india-an ... -aircraft/

another link that points about this is much like MKI

I do not see it that a way.

Although the article says "co-production", everything seems to indicate that the PAK-FA will be produced by the Russians and the FGFA by the Indians. So, right out of the gate I think that term is wrong. ?????

That they have arrived at an agreement on "work share" indicates that it is more of a co-development.

My feel is that the Indians will try out the current PAK-FAs, then decide what is needed and what is not, co-develop what is needed and build their own. Along the way the Russians will handhold wherever the Indians need help, with IP shared by both. Hand-holding will include manufacturing.

????

The billions is for the hand-holding. For productions there is a separate pot of billions that I do not see the Russians benefiting from (financially), erhaps to a minimal extent at best.

I am sure the Russians are very concerned about leaks - a legit concern.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 15 Sep 2016 15:34

This is tangential but still relevant to PAK/FA

"From the DRDO’s initial assumption that a Su-30 with stiffened wings could deploy a pair of BrahMos, to Sukhoi Design Bureau’s ill-tempered lack of cooperation in the platform modification exercise. Ultimately, HAL and BrahMos had to do it by themselves."

http://www.livefistdefence.com/2016/06/ ... su-30.html

This is the same Sukhoi that wants us to plunk down billions to fund a plane that is going to be late to the party and will be missing a few things. Can you imagine the screams if Boeing/Lockmart pulled this kind of attitude?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 15 Sep 2016 22:08

LM told that LCA will crash the moment it takes off. They were sabotaging LCA Tejas.

If you read pages on C-17 with Gilles taking part in discussion, again and again the press reports were referred that as a ToT boeing is going to build a state of art testing wind tunnel for us, well as it was meekly reported that the tunnel its fans etc. are decades old rotten and many parts are needed to be sent back.

For naval Tejas they were requested to be consultants and they flatly refused so EADS had to pulled in.

IAF had to wait 23 years for trainers, while C-17, C-130 & P-8 get clearence at lightening speed. Of course with those horrible yearly inspections. Do russians or french ever ask for such inspections?

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 15 Sep 2016 22:27

^^^Gilles had some issues with the C-17 but the IAF loves it and wants more. The Russians not only don't want inspections, they also don't want anything to do with the product once sold.

If Sukhoi is pouting before the sale, I can just imagine what they will do after the billions have been invested.

The IAF/Navy are now comfortable with EUMA which is why they want to buy more C-17s and P-8Is

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 15 Sep 2016 22:38

A foll and his money are easily parted.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Sep 2016 23:56

From MKI, LCA was born.
From PAKFA, AMCA must be born!

that is all I want

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 16 Sep 2016 00:46

SaiK wrote:From MKI, LCA was born.

How?

JayS · Post by **JayS** » 16 Sep 2016 15:13

SaiK wrote:From MKI, LCA was born.
From PAKFA, AMCA must be born!

that is all I want

Yes how?? How do you give birth to already born??

In all probability if and when it comes, PAKFA will be too late to have much impact on AMCA design big way.

rohiths · Post by **rohiths** » 16 Sep 2016 16:10

In another 10 years India's GDP will be 4X-5X times Russian GDP with per capita income which is half of Russia. Similarly there will be drastic improvements in Indian technical capabilities. I don't see why we should partner with them with such heavy investments on PAKFA. They are already struggling with PAKFA and this is just a bailout with no tangible benefits to India. The RCS of Tejas itself is less than PAKFA (if we believe that the RCS of PAKFA is 0.5-1sq m) . The PAKFA project looks like a scam to me
[Source:http://www.realcleardefense.com/article ... 08649.html]

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 16 Sep 2016 17:22

Who will pay for retirement fund of MoD Babus for next 10 years without PAKFA?