MBT Arjun - News and Discussions

nam · Post by **nam** » 08 Mar 2018 00:33

Missing turrets.

There was another image of a T-72 with missing turret right next to it. I cannot find it now.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 00:42

Wow very powerful mines. More like demolition charges.
I was hoping to see ATGM or RPG type effects.
Mines can blow up anything.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 08 Mar 2018 01:26

ramana wrote:Wow very powerful mines. More like demolition charges.
I was hoping to see ATGM or RPG type effects.
Mines can blow up anything.

My father was there
These were not mines
These were literally Drums packed full of explosive that would be buried in the path of the tanks at specific places.
T72s were simply lifted meters up in the air and when they would come back ... the turret would come back a few seconds late and at a different place.

The tigers would also lower very high tension electrical wires and get them to touch the aerials of the command tanks.
The unconfirmed rumour was that the Tank literally caught fire inside out
yes all the crew died
The wires episode was one off or twice. The regiment adapted quickly.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 08 Mar 2018 02:21

Explosives were stuffed inside the boles of coconut trees to avoid metal detector discovery.The LTTE had many tricks up their sleeves during that time. Children were hiding in treetops to signal the LTTE approach of the enemy, women had pistols hidden under their skirts. The LTTE even used a pregnant woman as a suicide bomber in an attack in Colombo.Roads and tracks were given the impression of having been mined, while the IEDs were placed off the road/tracks to kill infantry walking by the sides.

No MBT of any design/ type would've been able to survive a heavy LTTE IED. It however was incomprehensible that our intel ( compromised by our top RAW man there being a CIA double agent) did not alert the MOD/ IA to the huge casualties being suffered by the SLA due to these tactics , and prepared the IA/ IPKF properly for intervention in the island as under Mrs. G there was a plan for Indian intervention if the ethnic war deteriorated further with more killings of SL Tamils.The IPKF went in without proper maps and proper briefing on the LTTE and their v.successful tactics used against the SLA.It was an elrment of arrogancd on the part of the IA leadership that saw us take such a high no. Zzof casualties and utterly shameful of Indian leadership that there has been no memorial to the IPKF in India while even the GOSL has one in Colombo!

The SL ops also highlighted the need for a light amphib tank like the PT-76 deployed so well in '71.Now reqd. in the mountains.MBRLs and attack helos were perhaps the two most important weapons that won the war for the SLA.A former general swore by the MBRLs as a ddcisive factor.The attack helo was widely respected by the LTTE which had no control of airspace over the battlefield, especially when the LTTE changed tactics using more conventional warfare methods rather than guerilla warfare.

srai · Post by **srai** » 08 Mar 2018 10:55

nam wrote:Missing turrets.

There was another image of a T-72 with missing turret right next to it. I cannot find it now.

Anyone know how many T-72s were lost in the IPKF operations?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Mar 2018 19:54

If you note among the DRDO projects funded is the ATGM for the Arjun Mk2. #17 with ECD 2020 and funded at Rs. 66 crores.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Mar 2018 13:57

Rare interior of an Ru T-90 featuring "Commander Putin",Russia's "Man of Steel",at an arms expo.He also inspected an Armata MBT at the show,but no pics of that visit. great pics of Putin in various activities,showing off his "macho-Man's" diverse skills.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... ml#gallery

It would be interesting to compare it with the insides of the turret of an IA T-90.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 15 Mar 2018 01:56

Comrade
Your link is pointing to an article that insults your president.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 15 Mar 2018 06:41

Philip wrote:Rare interior of an Ru T-90 featuring "Commander Putin",Russia's "Man of Steel",at an arms expo.He also inspected an Armata MBT at the show,but no pics of that visit. great pics of Putin in various activities,showing off his "macho-Man's" diverse skills.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... ml#gallery

It would be interesting to compare it with the insides of the turret of an IA T-90.

You have a man crush!!!

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2018 10:48

The DRDO reply to Parliamentary Committee on Arjun 2 says all mods implemented and trial passed except the missile firing . The fix is either local development or improved Lahat.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 15 Mar 2018 12:40

My pres, you mean comrade Kovind?
No man crush.Just the turret interior of an Ru T-90 to compare with our T-90s.In the past Russia had two stds. of key mil eqpt.Export and Sov. std.Export had lesser capabilities. Pity no Armata interior pics.One would love to see what the crew armoured capsule looks like.
Just found a site.ck google for armata tank interior.
englishrussia.com

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 15 Mar 2018 13:25

Oh Fillipov you are hard to kill ... just the like your comrades at Stalingrad.
okay fine... where is my link to Putin reviewing the tanks eh ?

ramana wrote:The DRDO reply to Parliamentary Committee on Arjun 2 says all mods implemented and trial passed except the missile firing . The fix is either local development or improved Lahat.

Thanks for that Ramana.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2018 22:10

Ok Here are the relevant part of the Lok Sabha Report:

Section 2.14 :

Subsequent Arjun MBT Mk-I & Mk-II, to induction of Arjun MBT Mk-I & comparative
trials with T-90, the GOC-in-C reported that Arjun not only performed creditably and
can be employed for both offensive & defensive role as T-90, but also recommended
certain specific improvements to make it into a SUPERIOR WEAPON PLATFORM.
These specific improvements led to the forming of a Steering Committee, which in
turn constituted a Core Committee with Director CVRDE as Chairman and members
from User, OFB, DGQA etc. as stakeholders, for the development of Arjun MBT MKII.
As a consequence, all improvements were discussed threadbare and approval
obtained from all stakeholders during various core committee meetings. Based on
the above approval, CVRDE/DRDO developed & fielded for user trials the first
prototype of Arjun MBT Mk-II in a record time of 2 years with 73 tank fit-able
improvements, which includes 15 major improvements as listed below:
1. Missile firing through main gun
2. Commander Panoramic Sight (CPS) with Thermal Imager
3. Containerisation of Ammunition Bin with Individual Shutter (CABIS)
4. Roof Mounted Driver’s Seat (RMDS)
5. New final drive with increased reduction ratio
6. Un-cooled Thermal Imager (Driver’s Night Sight)
7. Track Width Mine Plough (TWMP)
8. Incorporation of ERA panels
9. AD weapon remote firing (360 degrees)
10. Effective Alternate to MRS
11. Laser Warning Countermeasure System (LWCS)
12. Advanced Land Navigation System (ALNS)
13. Automatic Target Tracking (ATT) Gunner’s Main Sight
14. Advanced Running Gear System (ARGS)
15. New Track with increased horn height

The User has approved all the improvements, except missile, based on the
trials (July 2012 to September 2015) and DGQA / MET evaluation are being carried
out. USER field intensive trials of the Arjun MBT Mk-II were completed successfully.
Although the missile firing capability from Arjun MBT Mk II was proven, the missile
fell short of its performance as per the User’s ATP, which are being addressed
through development indigenous Anti-Tank Guided Missile [ATGM] & as well as
improvised LAHAT missile of M/s IAI, Israel. As the missile can be retrofitted like any
other ammunition on production vehicle, the User is being requested to release the
production indent for the DAC approved quantity of 118 Nos., as the
productionisation will take minimum of 3 – 4 years time to roll out the first Arjun MBT
Mk-II production vehicle. During the intervening time, all the issues related will be
resolved either through indigenous missile from ARDE/DRDO Lab or by improvised
LAHAT missile.
As such, DRDO has successfully developed & incorporated all the
improvements on Arjun MBT Mk-II as suggested by Army and confident of
overcoming performance issues observed in the missile ammunition”.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 15 Mar 2018 22:32

Has the user requested to release the production indent for 118 Mk2s?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 15 Mar 2018 22:51

No. They complain of weight gain now that all those 14 improvements have been incorporated.

BTW the mine plow on every Arjun MkII is overkill. And its the major weight contributor.

If IA wants armored tractors then, BEML can provide them especially with dozer or plough or any other attachment..

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 16 Mar 2018 01:37

So there is a 16th issue ... the weight factor. ( i mean we know that).

i.e fix #1 with improved Lahat or another missile
fix #16 and decrease weight (without compromising quality of protection) ?

or are they willing to look in another direction if the missile firing is sorted out

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Mar 2018 03:13

I think the ORF analysis on force ratios that show a reduction in tank numbers will wake sum people up.

I was reading Maj. Gen. Sukhwant Singh's narrative of evolution of Indian Army.

He says prior to China War the Armored crops had mainly 75 mm Sherman tanks and one regiment that was up-gunned with French HV guns. About 200 Centurions were procured to deal with Pakistan getting Patton tanks. The numbers were not adequate. And the MoD wanted local production of Vickers so less imports as new tanks will come rolling out!!!

The 1962 debacle propelled Gen JNC who was armored corps officer to the top. He is first armored corps general.
Earlier chiefs were infantry.
JNC had a self regarded view of being Indian Guderian. Capt. Amrinder Singh in Monsoon War is derisive of armor corps and their dress code of black like Afrika Korps. They would change into olive green when visiting general was infantry!

He wanted lightly armored, fast, heavy gun tanks.
He settled on AMX-13s in large numbers to be dual use: plains and hilly terrain. Hilly terrain usage is a special requirement for IA in Kashmir. It came useful in 1948 with Stuart tanks and even in 1962 Chian
AMX-15 was really a truck on tracks with a high velocity gun.

JNC wanted to create an armored strike corps (with the 1 Armored and couple of infantry divisions 1 Strike Corps) and chose the Vickers which was light enough but with the 105 mm gun to be made in Avadi named as Vijayanta. The tank didn't show up till 1968.
The Asal Uttar and Chawinda battles made them realize the light tank wont be enough.

Kumaramangalam next became chief and needed to make up the armor deficiency and chose the T55 with 100mm gun as Vijayanata were not being made per schedule.

Same time Gen "Kay" at did a bad thing for the Armored Corp. He needed officers for the new infantry divisions being raised and raided them. And did not raise arty brigades. So the new armored divisions had less senior officers and hardly any supporting artillery brigades.

Manekshaw integrated these T55s into armored divisions and independent brigades.

From here my views:

This is the origin of the Russian tanks in Indian Army.
T-55 were up-gunned with the105mm when possible and were succeeded by T72s and now T90s.

In effect these are the Russian AMX versions medium heavy, fast, big gun.
But can they slug it out with Paki tanks?
I don't know who was the General when Arjun tanks were drafted.

I recall it was a medium tank with 120 mm gun to be replace the Vijayanta.
Some navigation equipment to not get lost in the desert dunes.

Then somewhere in early 1980 the spec changed as Pakistan was to acquire M1 tanks.

This change in specs handicapped the Arjun from day one.
It was like putting a couple of extra sand bags on a cart horse.

The Arjun is a heavy tank and the IA wants medium tanks as they are pursuing the Indian Guderian's vision.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 16 Mar 2018 03:35

Ramana-ji: you may like this....

https://m.facebook.com/TeamINDRA/posts/1098432576965092

Browser is not allowing me to do cut-and-paste

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Mar 2018 13:28

Ramanna, I think you are v.close to the truth.Gen.Sunderji's swift moving armoured formations of MBTs, BMPs, AVs must also be mentioned.I think Sov. tactics to smash through NATO defencesvin Europe played its part in IA doctrine.

Arjun always looked likf a desi Leopard, then the best from the West.Adding extras to it made it obese just as the LCA s being forcefed into being as capable of an M2K but in shrunken form.Had it been a pure MIG-21 replacement with improved basic air combat performance, we may have seen it in service a decade ago.

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Mar 2018 15:17

The first version of Arjun was with 105 MM gun.

Changed to 120 MM after Pak M1A1 tests. Read somewhere it is a Leo look alike because we were planning to induct Leo and Leo designers were drafted to design the Arjun in that expectation.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 16 Mar 2018 19:04

Philip wrote:Explosives were stuffed inside the boles of coconut trees to avoid metal detector discovery.The LTTE had many tricks up their sleeves during that time. Children were hiding in treetops to signal the LTTE approach of the enemy, women had pistols hidden under their skirts. The LTTE even used a pregnant woman as a suicide bomber in an attack in Colombo.Roads and tracks were given the impression of having been mined, while the IEDs were placed off the road/tracks to kill infantry walking by the sides.

No MBT of any design/ type would've been able to survive a heavy LTTE IED. It however was incomprehensible that our intel ( compromised by our top RAW man there being a CIA double agent) did not alert the MOD/ IA to the huge casualties being suffered by the SLA due to these tactics , and prepared the IA/ IPKF properly for intervention in the island as under Mrs. G there was a plan for Indian intervention if the ethnic war deteriorated further with more killings of SL Tamils.The IPKF went in without proper maps and proper briefing on the LTTE and their v.successful tactics used against the SLA.It was an elrment of arrogancd on the part of the IA leadership that saw us take such a high no. Zzof casualties and utterly shameful of Indian leadership that there has been no memorial to the IPKF in India while even the GOSL has one in Colombo!

The SL ops also highlighted the need for a light amphib tank like the PT-76 deployed so well in '71.Now reqd. in the mountains.MBRLs and attack helos were perhaps the two most important weapons that won the war for the SLA.A former general swore by the MBRLs as a ddcisive factor.The attack helo was widely respected by the LTTE which had no control of airspace over the battlefield, especially when the LTTE changed tactics using more conventional warfare methods rather than guerilla warfare.

LTTE was so effective in its operations because they were trained by IA in forests of Doon under directions of Mrs Gandhi. They knew everything that was to be known for Guerilla Warfare.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 Mar 2018 19:41

Khalsa,
Here it is: There is just one photo. The rest feature Col. Saab in various stages of undress, as he hunts, fishes, swims, works out, rides horses etc

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Mar 2018 21:15

I found a few sites with Armata interiors.

The LTTE did not learn everything fron India.The IPKF were shocked to see their arsenal which was very sophisticated, better than the SLA too.After the '83 riots, the diaspora collected vast sums of money, ramped up drugs and arms smuggling and had specialised teams studying weapons and warfare 24X7, esp. guerilla warfare tactics.They studied Viet tactics against the US, had similar UG bunkers heavily camouflaged and were the primes creators of thd suicide bomber terror tactic that killed Rajiv G , Premadasa, innumerable Lankam politicos, almost killed Chandrika, and used kamikaze boats to destroy Lankan patrol craft in large number. They also assembled light aircraft smuggled ashore from their v.effective merchant fleet, and used two in suicide missions at targets in Colombo.

We never taught them these tactics! The naxals are learning too from experience how to deal with mine-resistant APCs .The weapon system that the Afghans, LTTE and sundry warlords in Africa fear most are the Sov. era MI-25/35 Hind gunships.Heavily armoured flying tanks .The GOI must shake up the forces dealing with the Naxals.The IA is terribly reluctant to deal with them as they're also Indians! Therefore, a special counter- terrorism/ Naxal para force , trained in jungle warfare in particular , some SAS style units too,must be established and equipped with everything needed to crush the insurgents.Drones/UAV/UCAVs , attack helos, light COIN aircraft , AVs, even light arty and RPGs, etc. must be part of the force. They could come under IA control in wartime too, as their training would mirror that of the IA for most.Aerial surveillance, sats, etc.- "the full Manekshaw"
essential to detect insurgents and terrorists for swift extermination.

Sorry for diverging, it's the Arjun td.Any media report on A-2 passing all trials?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 16 Mar 2018 23:53

Katare wrote:
Philip wrote:Rare interior of an Ru T-90 featuring "Commander Putin",Russia's "Man of Steel",at an arms expo.He also inspected an Armata MBT at the show,but no pics of that visit. great pics of Putin in various activities,showing off his "macho-Man's" diverse skills.
It would be interesting to compare it with the insides of the turret of an IA T-90.
You have a man crush!!!

Heard Russia has dropped the Armata price by 30%.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2018 00:36

Philip wrote:Ramanna, I think you are v.close to the truth. Gen.Sunderji's swift moving armoured formations of MBTs, BMPs, AVs must also be mentioned. I think Sov. tactics to smash through NATO defences in Europe played its part in IA doctrine.

Arjun always looked like a desi Leopard, then the best from the West. Adding extras to it made it obese just as the LCA s being force fed into being as capable of an M2K but in shrunken form. Had it been a pure MIG-21 replacement with improved basic air combat performance, we may have seen it in service a decade ago.

Off course his tactics drove the doctrine and the equipment. But Arjun was not in his plans. And along comes Johnny come lately and unveils the over weight tank. IA gives improvements list and they go back to drawing board.

Looks like there was a disconnect between user and designer.
Anyway lets see. what happens.

Gen. Sunderji was known as the only infantry officer who could wield tank armies not just divisions.

And he was from OTA , Madras.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 17 Mar 2018 17:38

I was told that when he was in the UK for some senior lvl staff course there was only one line on his report.
"Fit to command NATO forces", or some such similar remark!

I know another (acclaimed) sister chief who held him in the highest regard who told me that he was truly remarkable with such a brilliant military mind.

PS:Op. Falcon generally known as the Sumdurong Chu spat, where the Chins bit off more than they could "Chu", pardon the pun, saw him innovativele airlift a brigade and T-72 tanks using MI-26 helos and IL-76s.
During his tenure we had exciting times with Brasstacks, the SC spat and the IPKF ops.That was ultimately a success in marginalising the Tigers, but is where there was a colossal intel failure about the LTTE's real capabilities and intent, which our mission there should've known better,. Our top RA&W man, looking after SL was caught in a CIA honey trap and turned by them.As a consequence ,we suffered v.heavy casualties and a truly fitting memorial to their sacrifice has not been established.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Mar 2018 18:23

Army sits on Arjun tank order over missile-firing capability
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... ility.html

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 17 Mar 2018 19:05

Rakesh wrote:Army sits on Arjun tank order over missile-firing capability
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... ility.html

There is a bright side to this story, with no money or limited budget the army will have to go for Arjun to replace the ~2000 plus upgraded T72's. I do not think Army will get or have the money to buy over 2,000 T90's.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2018 21:20

Rakesh wrote:Army sits on Arjun tank order over missile-firing capability
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... ility.html

I asked Shiv Aroor what exactly was the shortcoming? Range, accuracy, warhead...?
And was if missile or tank related?

Lets also dig for that info.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2018 21:22

Philip, At Fort Leavenworth, US.

I too thought the same when i read his interview in India Today that we had a world class General.

sahay · Post by **sahay** » 17 Mar 2018 21:51

Ramana, the problem is missile-related. LAHAT was dropped as it could not engage targets at ranges shorter than 1.2 km. This information is there in a HT article that Shiv Aroor linked. I also recall reading that the Israelis were uninterested in developing this particular capability, but I can't remember where.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Mar 2018 21:54

ramana wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Army sits on Arjun tank order over missile-firing capability
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... ility.html
I asked Shiv Aroor what exactly was the shortcoming? Range, accuracy, warhead...?
And was if missile or tank related?

Lets also dig for that info.

But is that worth holding up an order? I am puzzled as to the Army’s thought process on the Arjun. The T-90 has a lot of short comings, but yet that does not stop the induction of the tank into the Armoured Corps.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 17 Mar 2018 22:00

Upgraded LAHAT were supposed to be of similar dimensions posing no trouble integrating it at a later date. Not exactly a show-stopper.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Mar 2018 22:24

I have yet to read *ONE* valid reason that makes the Arjun inoperable for the Armoured Corps.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 18 Mar 2018 05:02

Thank God for the RM!! Need to see a repetition of Tejas order for the Arjun.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 18 Mar 2018 08:24

VinodTK wrote:
Rakesh wrote:Army sits on Arjun tank order over missile-firing capability
https://www.livefistdefence.com/2018/03 ... ility.html
There is a bright side to this story, with no money or limited budget the army will have to go for Arjun to replace the ~2000 plus upgraded T72's. I do not think Army will get or have the money to buy over 2,000 T90's.

Don't count on it. The tin can suppportors are quite creative when it comes to accounts.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Mar 2018 11:03

Prasad wrote:Upgraded LAHAT were supposed to be of similar dimensions posing no trouble integrating it at a later date. Not exactly a show-stopper.

LAHAT has a 6000 m range missile. To make it hit a target at less than 1200 meters would mean it has to take a high parabola for energy-wasting trajectory. How will it do that?

1200 m is quite close for the main gun to engage. Why would you want a missile for that?

If this requirement agreed to by the Army chain of command? What is the genesis of this anti physics requirement?

Can someone comment on the ERA fitted on top of the Arjun composite armor?

Austin tweeted it is heavier than required. Its same thickness as the ERA on T72 and T90 which have thinner armor.

srin · Post by **srin** » 18 Mar 2018 13:43

^^ While the minimum engagement range of 1.2km doesn't make too much sense to me either, I don't quite understand the anti-physics part. From the Youtube videos I've seen so far, LAHAT doesn't seem to be a top-attack missile - it is far more gently sloped trajectory than Nag or Spike. So it doesn't need to go up in the air at a high angle for close targets.

My thought is that maybe the warhead is armed after the booster burnout and that booster burnout time is the critical factor.

nam · Post by **nam** » 18 Mar 2018 14:33

My assumption, until someone can give a better reason is to provide crews with an alternative in case the sabot round fails to penetrate at under 1k mtrs.

It isn't just about sabot being accurate at 1km. LAHAT did not have such low min range, because Israel is confident of its sabot. We probably aren't.

However this is not an excuse for overall Arjun adoption.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 18 Mar 2018 16:55

How much LAHAT was must requirement specifics when IA drafted gsqr?

I think we have to workout on new needs as we proceed.
All range and weight requirents can come in subsequent upgrades and tranches.

Let's get Arjun Mk2 in 1000 numbers and in tranches.

IA must move on.