Siachen News & Discussion

[ShauryaT]

Added and for the record. Our PM's call is for Siachen to be a "Mountain of Peace". Now, what will people call him,

I would get banned if posted my true feelings on this PM

but seriously this is the most discredited PM in the history of India - you really do not want to use him for as a cover for anything!!

Speak with no fear. I find this PM to be the weakest in the history of India. He is ineffective and has presided over the most corrupt administration in our country. However, that does not color my views against him for EVERYTHING he does. Certainly, have no right to call him a traitor. I would rather not have an INC govt in charge. I think a BJPO led govt will move aggressively on the co-option template and in a far bolder manner than this PM.

Most of the IA is on record that any deal on Siachen is pre-conditioned on an AGPL.

not most but the ones who are in public eye and still in service and cannot be seen to cut the civilians so that people like you dleo not jump on them.

Those who are not in the limelight have the same view as Shukla

We are bleeding the pakis there and there are strategic advantages so no way to withdraw

That is a good section of the military view. But this is exactly the reason why it is the civilians, who need to make the final call and not the military. Only a foolish administration, would not take the advice of the military seriously but only a gutless executive will go only on this advice and nothing else. It is a fine line. For every instance where an executive has gone by the military advice there is an instance, where things have also gone wrong when the military advice is the only one sought and acted upon (global context). It is a fine line. There is no set formula for these decisions.

[ShauryaT]

Shauryaji, it is not OUR faults but one mans JLN.

It is interesting that when it comes to decision making you put the authority in the acting PM's hand (in the name of civilian rule, democracy and constitution) but when it came to blame/responsibility, you call it OUR problem

JLN was ours too. Did not mean it in any other way. He headed the nation and as the chief executive, should take the chief blame. The ours is in the sense of voting such an executive into power and hence a collective of varying degrees.

That is state of affairs. A PM of India calls Siachen mountain of peace and donate it to our nuclear enemy, where as another PM of India (IG) spent hundreds of Army lives to occupy that very mountain.

Who is the traitor?

They both acted in the national interest, as they saw and assessed it at the time. It is the right of progeny to judge these decisions and determine, if it served the national interest. No case of calling an ex PM a traitor.

I mean, let us take the other extreme, IKG is universally decried for the unilateral withdrawal of all RAW assets inside TSP. Call this whatever, but it is not being a traitor. Treason is a far more serious charge and should not be labeled around lightly, that too on credible ex officers, who are still serving their country in other ways post retirement. I mean, we mango men, simply do not have the right to do such a thing.

[Manish_Sharma]

Most of the IA is on record that any deal on Siachen is pre-conditioned on an AGPL. This is the position of the GoI too. The high trust deficit is no secret to anyone. Now, if GoI wants to override the IA to some degree and provide some flexibility during negotiations on this matter is for the GoI to decide in the larger interests, as they see it. We as citizens should certainly voice our opinion on the matter even vociferously.
We the citizens saw how this Prime Minister(who can't even win a Lok Sabha seat) used up this flexibility in Sharam-Al-Sheikh.

However, calling people "traitors" is CROSSING THE LINE. That is not what COAS V.K Singh did and NO ONE gave you or anyone else the right to call me the same. I have met the COAS once, and do not think he will call another Indian with a view on the matter contradicting his to be one of a traitor.

Hmmm but gives right to 'Sudeep J' to abuse Brihaspati having 'Tapeworm', because he is arguing on your side, and you be close to those in power or near to power will decide whose abuses are to be highlighted.

While you yourself have mastered the art of abusing people in 'super sophisticated way' like calling them 'mob' and 'cowards' (It is so easy to use the seeming anonymity to act angry et al) By the way this is PratikDas' answer to you: I have my full name for you to see. Add me as 'friend' if you dare On the other hand, you are "ShauryaT". Who is claiming anonymity again?

I watched the interview and the COAS is entitled to his views on the matter fully. The last time I checked, India was still under civilian rule. The civilians should listen to the advice of the military and take their concerns into account, however the final decision is in the hands of the executive and parliament on the matter.
Exactly and in civilian democratic country it is okay to criticize the rulers, prime ministers and the parliament. It is ok , especially if PM behaves like dictator in sharm-al-sheikh ignoring even the civilian authority and slimely signs papers going against the advise of civilian beareaucrats , cabinet etc. Since we're not in China/porkistan I can bravely write this without the fear that ShauryaT will report my post to 'people in power' or 'near people in power' and I'll be harmed.

Also, please do not take the COAS's words out of context. He was reacting to the question about Kayani's recent utterances, which are really not the core issue at all. Kayani's comments are irrelevant and the main action is in the foreign secretary level discussions.
Shriman ji you're lying here, see he starts answering to statement by kayani and then moves totally to issue of Siachin where he says talks on the lines of how he has seen how difficult it was to be on Siachin in 1984, but now we have infrastructure in place and enviornmental casualities on minimum. We are on heights advantageous position and would be fools to vacate.

Let me be clear on my position, it almost mirrors retired Brig. Gurmeet Kanwal's and am happy to answer any questions on the matter. My only condition is, it be a civil discourse, without the use of epithets and innuendos.
When you're brushing aside current army chief's comments under 'civilian rulers have the authority to decide' what does Gurmeet Kanwal matter? Other posters have also posted various retired officer's views on dangers of vacating Siachin but did that matter to you?

If you find a post of mine violating forum rules or crossing a line, please report it.
I can't report your post ShauryaT the reason is, you make strange 'dance of self-importance' on the stage of BR. First you start posting in favour of an idea which is totally against IA's view, the argument goes on technical lines. Each and every technical point is countered by posters here specially Rohitvats. When a backlog of their posts becomes big and you are not knowledgeable enough to answer them, you make a drama of being offended by abusive posts (only those who are against your views not of SudeepJ's)
Then you call posters here 'mob' and 'cowards'(It is so easy to use the seeming anonymity to act angry et al)
And making a condition that unless these are cleaned up you'll not post here. Then you drop in a hint that you take the views here to 'people in power' or 'near people in power'. Finally you leave for couple of days, nobody misses you and then you come back again without your conditions fulfilled.
So no nothing to report on you, your abuses are too sophisticatedly hidden to be reported. And I can't report your post because I find it disgusting. You see 'disgusting' is not 'reportable offence' here.

[Surya]

That is a good section of the military view. But this is exactly the reason why it is the civilians, who need to make the final call and not the military. Only a foolish administration, would not take the advice of the military seriously but

Unfortunately in India I would not agree. Almost no civilian leader has any military experience. after all the previous disasters from haji Pir etc - no way a civilian govt should have exclusive say on this

In Israel even when it is absolutely clear legally that the Golan belongs to Syria, no one is in a hurry to hand it back. (and i hope they never give it back )

There is no hurry to do anything about Siachen

[RamaY]

^ ShauryaTji,

It is a fine line. For you a PM selling off a good part of the territory or hard earned mountain is in National Interests and leadership prerogative. For someone else it is treason. They too are Indians and are entitled to express their opinion, under the very democratic laws that protect PM's prerogative. And you are entitled to your opinion that they are wrong to say so (and report their posts).

Similarly for a intelligence officer, selling some state secrets could be in ulterior interests of the very nation he was deceiving. After all he is uplifting a few families out of poverty, and many including the PM tell us that economic progress is paramount and is more important than cultural and territorial integrity.

When the nation loses its moral bearings, it's Supre Court judge advises the Chief of Army to "blow with the wind".

It is very sad indeed.

[ShauryaT]

That is a good section of the military view. But this is exactly the reason why it is the civilians, who need to make the final call and not the military. Only a foolish administration, would not take the advice of the military seriously but

Unfortunately in India I would not agree. Almost no civilian leader has any military experience. after all the previous disasters from haji Pir etc - no way a civilian govt should have exclusive say on this

In Israel even when it is absolutely clear legally that the Golan belongs to Syria, no one is in a hurry to hand it back. (and i hope they never give it back )

There is no hurry to do anything about Siachen

No there is no hurry for Siachen and given the ground situation, we should drive a hard bargain. But the civilians are the decision makers. We as citizens are empowered to judge them. There is no other way.

[Manish_Sharma]

^^RamaY ji, its just strange bunch of posts like "I do my part to make this discussion known to people in power or are near power".

The problem is even if you are close to let's say PM, HM or any minister, some ruling party's general secretary or let's say even powerful bureacrat like cabinet secretary or foreign secretary you don't give them what posters on BR think. They tell you what is right and then these people impressed by their power and authority come down to common 'mob' and sanctimoniously tell them 'how correct the PM, the govt. is'.

[Surya]

But the civilians are the decision makers. We as citizens are empowered to judge them. There is no other way.

officially no other way but thats where those who are out of service should come into play and make their voices heard

even better I want a referendum

I amnot prepared to put my trust post decision making

[ShauryaT]

^ ShauryaTji,

It is a fine line. For you a PM selling off a good part of the territory or hard earned mountain is in National Interests and leadership prerogative. For someone else it is treason. They too are Indians and are entitled to express their opinion, under the very democratic laws that protect PM's prerogative. And you are entitled to your opinion that they are wrong to say so (and report their posts).

Similarly for a intelligence officer, selling some state secrets could be in ulterior interests of the very nation he was deceiving. After all he is uplifting a few families out of poverty, and many including the PM tell us that economic progress is paramount and is more important than cultural and territorial integrity.

When the nation loses its moral bearings, it's Supre Court judge advises the Chief of Army to "blow with the wind".

It is very sad indeed.

RamaY Ji: "Selling off"...No sir, did not say anything like that at all or meant anything remotely similar - by me. Such a situation will invoke parliament and only they have the right to compromise on soverignity. No such proposal for Siachen is on the table. If you have not done so, please read Brig: Kanwal's proposals. It is not unilateral vacating our territory. It is about a "mutual withdrawal". The template revolves around a "trust but verify" paradigm. Some may think it is workable, some not for many reasons.

As for treason, its definition is quite narrow and fairly well understood. It is an act that in the view of a "government" is aiding and abetting the enemy (I am not giving the legal definition but a commonly understood one). The acts of a legitimate government, sanctioned by its chiefs by definition cannot be treason, unless violated in law. We are a country of laws. It is up to us, to change these laws but it is also up to us to follow them, while they are in force.

On Moral bearings, it is a different issue and am probably more in agreement with you on the same. I have been a harsh critic of this government, our constitutional structures and our deracinations. However, do not take it upon myself to use harsh words against others (not saying you did that RamaY) just because someone has a different PoV. If each one of us, starts determining, what they think is being a traitor or not without any guidance of laws and rules then that would only lead to anarchy.

What I sense here is a deep mistrust for Pakistan, obviously and also a deep mistrust of our own government.

All I am saying is there is a line on the matter of treason - a thick one. On the matter of treason these lines were crossed, IMO. Also, helps to have a civil discourse and this forum prided itself on that rule. I hope you can support that no matter, which side of the debate one is on.

[ShauryaT]

Also, please do not take the COAS's words out of context. He was reacting to the question about Kayani's recent utterances, which are really not the core issue at all. Kayani's comments are irrelevant and the main action is in the foreign secretary level discussions.
Shriman ji you're lying here, see he starts answering to statement by kayani and then moves totally to issue of Siachin where he says talks on the lines of how he has seen how difficult it was to be on Siachin in 1984, but now we have infrastructure in place and enviornmental casualities on minimum. We are on heights advantageous position and would be fools to vacate.

Let me be clear on my position, it almost mirrors retired Brig. Gurmeet Kanwal's and am happy to answer any questions on the matter. My only condition is, it be a civil discourse, without the use of epithets and innuendos.
When you're brushing aside current army chief's comments under 'civilian rulers have the authority to decide' what does Gurmeet Kanwal matter? Other posters have also posted various retired officer's views on dangers of vacating Siachin but did that matter to you?

If you find a post of mine violating forum rules or crossing a line, please report it.
I can't report your post ShauryaT the reason is, you make strange 'dance of self-importance' on the stage of BR. First you start posting in favour of an idea which is totally against IA's view, the argument goes on technical lines. Each and every technical point is countered by posters here specially Rohitvats. When a backlog of their posts becomes big and you are not knowledgeable enough to answer them, you make a drama of being offended by abusive posts (only those who are against your views not of SudeepJ's)
Then you call posters here 'mob' and 'cowards'(It is so easy to use the seeming anonymity to act angry et al)
And making a condition that unless these are cleaned up you'll not post here. Then you drop in a hint that you take the views here to 'people in power' or 'near people in power'. Finally you leave for couple of days, nobody misses you and then you come back again without your conditions fulfilled.
So no nothing to report on you, your abuses are too sophisticatedly hidden to be reported. And I can't report your post because I find it disgusting. You see 'disgusting' is not 'reportable offence' here.

MAnish_sharma: Keep on trying more epithets and adjectives (Liar, Disgusting, Traitor, Sophisticated) , shout enough and something will stick, however not one thing to move the debate forward and simply go on a personal diatribe. I guess this is what SudeepJ meant by a gutter level of debate. If you find my posts disgusting and do not find any value in them, you can do one thing that this board allows and that is to put me on your ignore list, as I will do to to your posts. Bye.

[RamaY]

ShauryaTji

I wonder why Siachen became an environmental, moment of reconciliation issue all of a sudden. Yes it has been a discussion point between India and Pakistan like PoK, Sir-Creek etc that we have been discussing since 1947.

The paki voices and their echoes in WKK plaza raised only after the avelanche that drained the pakis into the Arabian sea.

There are tons of environmental projects both Pakistan and India can take up at any point of time with more beneficial results to the man kind.

I also do not understand why the PM of India is more worried about the distress of pakis than the internal issues that are distress of hundreds of millions of Indians.

[ShauryaT]

ShauryaTji

I wonder why Siachen became an environmental, moment of reconciliation issue all of a sudden. Yes it has been a discussion point between India and Pakistan like PoK, Sir-Creek etc that we have been discussing since 1947.

The paki voices and their echoes in WKK plaza raised only after the avelanche that drained the pakis into the Arabian sea.

There are tons of environmental projects both Pakistan and India can take up at any point of time with more beneficial results to the man kind.

I also do not understand why the PM of India is more worried about the distress of pakis than the internal issues that are distress of hundreds of millions of Indians.

I think it is media hype. TSP media has an emotional story for their TRP. Indian media picks up on it and runs it and everyone then speaks out on the matter and you get a grand debate What this debate provides to the polity is the public view. On the ground, in terms of "official" talks, there has been no movement. All positions are where they were, is my read.

I am sold on trying to make the co-option template with Pakistan work. Many on this board are not. I see Siachen as a workable CBM, on the lines of an operational plan that Brig: Kanwal has proposed. Not posting some additional gyan received from some for god only knows what abuses are in store and I am sure with the way many on this board are going, they will be labeled as traitors too and soon no "patriot" will be left in Government of India!

As a friend, some suggestion. Ignore what MMS says in public on foreign policy, it has only limited value, as a PM he plays to the gallery (yes, even our staid MMS does that), pay close attention to NSA SS Menon. He is the architect behind the scenes on matters of security and has a major say in FP matters.

Follow his utterances and a lot of the govt thinking will come out. Here is an example. http://www.icwa.in/pdfs/NSASpeechARC2012.pdf. No miracles promised for after all even he is a Babu.

[peter]

Threatening legal action etc is long drawn and difficult to continue. Besides its cowardly. Should refute it.

But refutation does not stop them from lying again. If they loose some change or their jobs they will perhaps remember to not lie?

[peter]

I am sold on trying to make the co-option template with Pakistan work. Many on this board are not. I see Siachen as a workable CBM,

Ok same question to you. What line of the border would you defend in the north , north west and west?

If that gets contested in the future what do we do?

I am quite confident you have not owned a piece of land (agricultural land). If you did you would realise that once the boundary is allowed to be changed by a neighbor it will keep moving!

[PratikDas]

I am sold on trying to make the co-option template with Pakistan work. Many on this board are not. I see Siachen as a workable CBM, on the lines of an operational plan that Brig: Kanwal has proposed. Not posting some additional gyan received from some for god only knows what abuses are in store and I am sure with the way many on this board are going, they will be labeled as traitors too and soon no "patriot" will be left in Government of India!

If you're sold on the co-option template, then good for you.

Is there a reason for the 90% who were against any withdrawal in this forum's poll to care? You've said N number of times what your position is. Nobody here is determined to ensure you change your opinion. We understand the dynamics of a rock. Yet you seem determined to keep rinsing and repeating the same point of view without answering any of the tough questions on verification and repercussion. So, what is your purpose? Are you trying to convert those of an opposing point of view to yours, by dodging the questions of utmost importance I might add? If so, all is fair in this competition and the rigid syllabus of your lecture has to be flagged as representing an agenda.

And no self respecting forum member here cares what gyan from up above you're witholding. We don't need trailers to the inside information you've come across. BR isn't Congress' propaganda website. Here sh!t actually stinks and members don't shy away from highlighting the obvious flaws in your syllabus.

[pralay]

However, we also should not assume the enemy has indefinite capabilities and live in a state of fear. An accurate assessment of their capabilities and intent needs to be done.

So what the assessment is? what are their capabilities?
You must have got some data from the one who sold you that Siachin can be vacated(gifted to enemy).
Show us the assessment data

In the case of TSP, their ultimate intent or desire is not something that is in our power to change in this generation.

Doesn't that imply that even if you hand over siachin to them, their intent wont change? How are you suppose to build confidence then?
Rather it will help the enemy feel confident and encouraged to create troubles in other areas(and get it as a CBM gift )

The whole islamist project, is something, that we are ill equipped to confront as of now.

What is this "Whole Islamist project" ? Sounds interesting Are you planning to take on whole group of islamic nations?

What is in our power is to deal and assess their capabilities and other desires and seek to exploit them for our national interest. In the process.

You must be having assessment data before getting sold

And very important question,
Do you agree that armed forces are the best for this assessment task as its mostly assessment of military capabilities?

[chaanakya]

@Sridhar: Any peace agreement will have concessions/climbdowns by both sides. You are mistaken in your belief that India will not have to climb down on any issue at all for a final settlement of the border. Even the US had to institute a marshall plan after it smashed the axis powers. At what time have Pakistani armies in Bakistan (West Pakistan) been smashed that you think we are in a position to dictate terms to Pakistan?

So Pakistan wants India to withdraw from Siachen and calls it demilitarisation. What is in it for India that is offered by Pakistan assuming that we want to vacate our territory( i.e. if you agree to the stipulation that it is OUR territory)?
Would you be kind enough to put on table the offer of Pakistan so that it can be discussed.

Ref to Marshall Plan, do you think India should institute a Marshall Plan for recovery of economy of Pakistan ? Last time I heard, when India offered help in some natural disaster(flood) Pakis were objecting to India labeling its supplies besides asking India not to directly route it. BTW how does Siachen Withdrawal compares to Marshall Plan. Which territory US vacated? Why do we need to implement Marshall plan for Pakistan?

We have not given any offer on Siachen. Pakistan Army Chief has asked for it. Demilitarisation on Pakistani side has been taken care of by Avalanche. Why should we be dictating terms? But you forgot 1971 before talking about not being in a position to dictate terms. You also forgot the economic condition of Pakistan that it finds itself in. Do we really owe to them to help them recover? Why so, please tell us.

Indian Army is on record voicing its opposition to the idea. COAs put to rest the lie that Pakistan Army is in Siachen. They are not.
Now if GOI wants to vacate Siachen they do have policy prerogative, but I very much doubt that all branches of Govt is in on it. If it is one man agenda then time has come to say goodbye to that man. Thanks but no thanks.

[sum]

So Pakistan wants India to withdraw from Siachen and calls it demilitarisation. What is in it for India that is offered by Pakistan assuming that we want to vacate our territory( i.e. if you agree to the stipulation that it is OUR territory)?
Would you be kind enough to put on table the offer of Pakistan so that it can be discussed.

Sirji, he has already given 2 "cimbdowns" by TSP ( when i had asked the same question):
1. TSP will not fail if we have this CBM and give up Siachen. TSP failing is not in Indian interest ( we have all seen how considerate TSP has been when at its strongest in 47,65, early 90s etc)

2. If Saichen isnt given up by India, the Islamists get even stronger in TSP and so, that is bad for Desh.

So, simplest solution: start giving away whatever TSP objects to ( Siachen today, Sir Creek tomorrow, Hindu caretaker maintaining red fort the day after that etc) since not doing so is going to hurt us in the long term.

[chaanakya]

I think it is media hype. TSP media has an emotional story for their TRP. Indian media picks up on it and runs it and everyone then speaks out on the matter and you get a grand debate What this debate provides to the polity is the public view. On the ground, in terms of "official" talks, there has been no movement. All positions are where they were, is my read.

I am sold on trying to make the co-option template with Pakistan work. Many on this board are not. I see Siachen as a workable CBM, on the lines of an operational plan that Brig: Kanwal has proposed. Not posting some additional gyan received from some for god only knows what abuses are in store and I am sure with the way many on this board are going, they will be labeled as traitors too and soon no "patriot" will be left in Government of India! .

Ok So Am I to understand that behind all this is nothing but media hype. No substance. All positions are where they were. So lets ignore that for a moment.

You want peace with Pakistan. What do you expect would result in peace with Pakistan. At present we are not at war. Armies are where they should be. Why do we withdraw from Siachen as CBM? Ok trust deficit is there. What Pakistan has done to bridge this trust deficit. India wants all perpetrators of 26/11 and D etc to be sent to India for trial ( not that i am hopeful of any speedy justice or exemplary punishment, unless you think Chicken biryani served to kasab is one) . If Shuja Pasha visited India as promised by Zardari i n the aftermath of 26/11 these would have been great CBMs for India. It would have signaled that Pakistan has finally abandoned terrorism as a state policy and adopted a different approach with India.

First let them do it. We are pretty comfortable in Siachen and serves as High Altitude Warfare School Training ground, unique in the world. No other army has this experience. Lets preserve it.

[chaanakya]

Do I need to remind you about the characters apt to chanting "sui ki noke ke barabar bhoomi" (will not give land the size of a needlepoint)..? .

Your reference is to the Famous words in Epic Mahabharata said by Suyodhana.

I am sure you understand that was a fight between Dharma and Adharma. The protagonist , who uttered those words, was on the side of Adharma and was holding on to land/power what was not to be his.

Now by equating this with Indian position of non withdrawal from Siachen you have implied that Indians are wrong in the first place. Pakistan thinks that India is holding on to what should have been Pakistani territory. Legal position tells us otherwise.

So if you believe that India is wrong in holding onto J&K and Siachen and rest of the territory claimed by other countries including China then there can be no argument. You establish that India has no right to be where it is then my position would be to withdraw.

[eklavya]

If the explanation offered by the Government does not make sense, then citizens are right to consider them and call them TRAITORS.

I am learning some new definitions for the word traitor! Go on!!

ShauryaT, since you are so well connected, I guess we better wait for your official definition of traitor. While you are at it, please also tell us the official definition of a "confidence building measure".

You acknowledge yourself that the intent of the Pakistani establishment is malafide, yet you are in favour of "co-opting" them through gifting them (at minimum) a diplomatic victory at Siachen, against the advice of the Indian armed forces.

The perpetrators of 26/11 are roaming around freely (the Paki courts freed Hafiz Saeed and sentenced the man who helped to catch OBL to 33y in prison) and spreading hatred against India, and you want to "co-opt" their masters in the ISI and GHQ.

What does India gain through your favoured "co-option"?

Gen VKS called those who favour a withdrawal from Siachen "fools".

MMS and SSM got away lightly with the lunacy at sharm-el-sheikh. History will judge them as worse than traitors if they gift a diplomatic victory (at a minimum) to Pakistan on Siachen.

[ShauryaT]

Ok same question to you. What line of the border would you defend in the north , north west and west?

If that gets contested in the future what do we do?

I am quite confident you have not owned a piece of land (agricultural land). If you did you would realise that once the boundary is allowed to be changed by a neighbor it will keep moving!

I hope you do know the history of the land in question and the fact that our claims go to the Wakhan. As of today, we defend the LoC. If the peace template succeeds, who knows what will happen to this LoC. I am opposed to conversion of the LoC to IB at this time. I think the desired end state of the LoC/IB is to be open, but we are a long way from there.

In terms of contentions, if we are not able to enforce our view of our claims on the contestant in due course, accommodation becomes necessary, especially if the opponent controls your access.

Peter: You could have asked the same question, without making it personal - not about to lay down my personal assets to prove something . My thinking is, it is my solemn duty to expand this land that I own, use or benefit from, in that order.

[AdityaM]

if MMS takes a policy decision to pull back from Siachen, can the courts put a stop to it?

[Vipul]

Go back a few more. Many of these are not just for me and/or SudeepJ but to Brig Kanwal too.

Who are these guys to call us traitors and other like epithets and why is this board tolerating it?

I am not even listing many other posts, who's only intent seems to be to shove the discussion to a gutter level.

Bheeshma wrote:
The F**king idiots crying crocodile tears for Indian soldiers in siachen are just snake oil merchants. The retired brig has either gone senile or is simply a traitor who needs to be taken care off. Most of his arguments for demilitarization are bogus.

Vipul wrote:
What, not a single post still by WKK's aka modern jaichands advocating that we willingly burn our hands in the spirit (hic) of bhaichara?
Ghor Kalyug Onlee!!!!

Manish_Sharma wrote:
You Siachin withdrawal supporters! I hate you! I find you disgusting now - build CBMs with me instead of reporting/arguing against me.

Bheeshma wrote:
I doubt it. They are obviously too stupid or too much of traitors to ever see the porki perfidy. Anyway looks like even porkis have shut up about Siachen. I really hope India postpones the talks on Siachen indefinitely citing domestic compulsions or some other excuse.

Bheeshma wrote:
I am not sure why we are letting these traitors continue this discussion any further.

Bheeshma wrote:
LoL I am amazed that the so called peaceniks and WKK's (or traitors as I actually think of them) have come down to cheap B-grade movie level dramabazi.

Vipul wrote:
I am not sure if someone is Paki or is actively propagating its POV but one thing is crystal clear:
The nonsensical argument that in the event of a conflict due to pakistani occupation of Siachen after Indian withdrawal, the number of Indian lives lost will be less then those being caused by India's continous reign there and hence india should take the chance and vacate it sounds too much like a smooth talking paki making a pitch for it and hoping that easily taken-in Indians(look at the track record) will fall for it.

Added and for the record. Our PM's call is for Siachen to be a "Mountain of Peace". Now, what will people call him, if there is indeed an action of some sort for a CBM on Siachen?

Merely being "politically correct" or sounding "peace loving" does not make you or your moral sounding drivel as more acceptable then each of the above posters comments.For the record each of these comments contain or have come after enough posts to demolish your idea of India obligating its enemy.Also atleast one comment had a point which you of couse could not answer but nonetheless have now quoted yourself to about the forum not following standards.
on one hand you yourself are saying our PM is weak and on the other you want him to have the power to override strategic experts(No less then an army chief) to go about repeating his sharm-el-sheik fiasco?
Go back a few of your posts to the one you have posted about a seminar in pakistan where you imply to show that Pukis are responsible people and are smoking the peace pipe and indirectly implying that it is India that is the one to blame for this issue.
In spite of showing you how this peace loving people were still propagating blatant lies against India and giving rejoinders to how this is bad idea by everyone on this forum you still want India to be obligated into a kargil re-dux.
If someone keeps on Propogating for something to be done against a country's interest you know what they are called? Yet you blame others? Yes i know WKK's love to be kicked in the face. Point is why should the country suffer?

[ShauryaT]

Ok So Am I to understand that behind all this is nothing but media hype. No substance. All positions are where they were. So lets ignore that for a moment.

You want peace with Pakistan. What do you expect would result in peace with Pakistan.

Is this a serious question? I mean, at which level geo-political, security, economic, social, regional, global are there not benefits to peace with Pakistan? There is only one level at which a war is desired with Pakistan and this is if we seek the dissolution of the state of Pakistan. I do not think that goal, serves Indian interests today and neither do we have the wherewithal to enforce it in meaningful time frames.

At present we are not at war. Armies are where they should be. Why do we withdraw from Siachen as CBM?

The CBM can serve a larger purpose, if successful over time. It becomes a potential template for all of the LoC. Also, in terms of Siachen/Saltoro the entire area even west of the Saltoro gets demilitarized, so both sides would withdraw. If you know of a better area on the LoC, less risky, not populated and desolate to start with then please list it here. What it also does is show to both sides that we can indeed compromise and come to a negotiated settlement, on an area of dispute. Especially for an area, which is insane at best to be used as an invasion route for anyone.

Ok trust deficit is there. What Pakistan has done to bridge this trust deficit. India wants all perpetrators of 26/11 and D etc to be sent to India for trial ( not that i am hopeful of any speedy justice or exemplary punishment, unless you think Chicken biryani served to kasab is one) . If Shuja Pasha visited India as promised by Zardari i n the aftermath of 26/11 these would have been great CBMs for India. It would have signaled that Pakistan has finally abandoned terrorism as a state policy and adopted a different approach with India.

First let them do it. We are pretty comfortable in Siachen and serves as High Altitude Warfare School Training ground, unique in the world. No other army has this experience. Lets preserve it.

The list of Indian issues, needs, desires to build trust is long. The actual sequencing of which gets done first, second and last is open for debate. I completely understand the need for us to see Pakistan to be doing something tangible on the Hafiz and 26/11 front. I have to caution against any grand reliance on gestures of "abandonment" of terrorism as a state policy. As I said earlier, Pakistan is a failing, paranoid and dysfunctional state. I would rather prefer lasting action on the ground. Example: The change of the official education curriculum of the state of Pakistan to eliminate the preaching of hatred towards others will go a long way towards a more conciliatory state. Being able to put a dent on the PA's stranglehold on TSP budget for the military, would be a major coup. But again the list is a long one and varied. Hence, jumping to settle the border in Kashmir, IMO would be a premature move at this stage and hence CBM's are needed.

[Kakkaji]

Let's not forget that the word 'demilitarization' itself has different meanings for people/ Govts. of India and Pakistan. Let me explain:

In India, there is one 'military' that is under the control of the civilian govt. When ordered to withdraw from a place by the Govt, it will withdraw, leaving no units behind.

In case of Pakistan, there is one official military (in uniform), and several 'unofficial' militaries (the Jehadi tanjeems, the tribal lashkars etc.) out-of-uniform that are equipped and trained with almost all the weaponry that regular Pakistani infantry has. They are trained and controlled by the PA/ ISI superstructure.

So, with mutually agreed 'demilitarization', while the Indian military and the 'in-uniform' Pakistani military will vacate the areas, the 'out-of-uniform' Pakistani military will sneak in and establish control, without Pakistan having 'officially' broken the agreement.

What do we think the 'guarantors of peace' will do in this situation?

[chetak]

if MMS takes a policy decision to pull back from Siachen, can the courts put a stop to it?

The waters have been so muddied now that there will be a huge public outcry and the country is too near the next elections for such dramatic appeasement.

The public is all too aware of our great leaders in the past who raped the country because of foolishness and idiosyncrasies.

The armed forces too will not keep quiet and the government will fall. Many very vocal Ex Servicemen's groups have become extremely adept at portraying the views of the Army.

This stupid government simply does not have the stomach to confront the IA directly just to appease the pakis.

[ShauryaT]

Let's not forget that the word 'demilitarization' itself has different meanings for people/ Govts. of India and Pakistan. Let me explain:

In India, there is one 'military' that is under the control of the civilian govt. When ordered to withdraw from a place by the Govt, it will withdraw, leaving no units behind.

In case of Pakistan, there is one official military (in uniform), and several 'unofficial' militaries (the Jehadi tanjeems, the tribal lashkars etc.) out-of-uniform that are equipped and trained with almost all the weaponry that regular Pakistani infantry has. They are trained and controlled by the PA/ ISI superstructure.

So, with mutually agreed 'demilitarization', while the Indian military and the 'in-uniform' Pakistani military will vacate the areas, the 'out-of-uniform' Pakistani military will sneak in and establish control, without Pakistan having 'officially' broken the agreement.

What do we think the 'guarantors of peace' will do in this situation?

Fair point. First, at the end of the day, we should be clear that it is only through the threat of the use of force that we can guarantee peace. Towards this it should be clear to the opponent that a violation of a CBM, such as Siachen would result in a disproportionate loss not worth the mischief. This sense of a likely disproportionate loss should be clear to the opponent and guaranteed through our capabilities and political will.

Also, it is through CBM's such as Siachen, that we should seek the strengthen the hands of those who desire peace against those in Pakistan who are blinded by the Islamic template.

[Kakkaji]

The armed forces too will not keep quiet and the government will fall. Many very vocal Ex Servicemen's groups have become extremely adept at portraying the views of the Army.

This stupid government simply does not have the stomach to confront the IA directly just to appease the pakis.

The above can be taken care of by the Govt. if the next COAS toes the Govt. line on Siachen.

[ShauryaT]

ShauryaT, since you are so well connected, I guess we better wait for your official definition of traitor. While you are at it, please also tell us the official definition of a "confidence building measure".

I do not have any connections and am a mango man. All I have is a deep and abiding love towards our nation, which encourages me to discuss and learn about issues concerning national security, as I see them. You do not have to wait for my definition of traitor, our laws do define it and when you get a chance lookup IPC and the foreign codes for reference.

You acknowledge yourself that the intent of the Pakistani establishment is malafide, yet you are in favour of "co-opting" them through gifting them (at minimum) a diplomatic victory at Siachen, against the advice of the Indian armed forces.

On the question of intent, I know only one thing and that is the ideas of the Islamic template can be nothing but malafide against India and what she stands for. However, Pakistanis or muslims anywhere are not just governed by this one template alone or even a uniform view of this template. There are many other influences on the muslim population minds of daily bread and butter and of the inherent spiritual nature of man. I treat this Islamic template as a wool over their eyes and it is in our interests to work towards removing this wool or at least its darkest elements, over time and not allow it to succeed. NONE of the past hindu empires have even tried this and that has been their tragic mistake. A mistake that we have paid dearly for. We can only wage war and subdue them or engage and make peace. Cannot hope and wait for them to come to their senses on their own. It does not happen that way in the real world. The Cease Fire agreement and subsequent reduction in terrorism support from Pakistan as evidenced was a result of Parakram and other acts of the government at that time. We need to continue and build this momentum and not loose it.

The perpetrators of 26/11 are roaming around freely (the Paki courts freed Hafiz Saeed and sentenced the man who helped to catch OBL to 33y in prison) and spreading hatred against India, and you want to "co-opt" their masters in the ISI and GHQ.

What does India gain through your favoured "co-option"? [/qoute] I have answered these questions in the past. Cannot keep on repeating my views on it.

Gen VKS called those who favour a withdrawal from Siachen "fools".

The views of the army, should be taken into account. It is the considered advice of a COAS that the government should take into account. I am not sure, to what degree, is the comment from the TV interview is a considered view. I will be surprised if the "fools" comment is a considered view on the Siachen negotiations. For example, is it clear from the interview that the COAS is against a deal, post AGPL authentication? I am not sure. The way I read it was, do not be fooled by Kayani's comments on Siachen. We would be fools to withdraw just because Kayani said so. We have had 13 rounds of talks and nothing has changed on the ground. Let us not react to these statements and loose our bearings.

[Kakkaji]

Also, it is through CBM's such as Siachen, that we should seek the strengthen the hands of those who desire peace against those in Pakistan who are blinded by the Islamic template.

In other words, you want to strengthen the hands of the .001% against the 99.999%, and expect the percentages to be reversed in the long-term.

[ShauryaT]

Also, it is through CBM's such as Siachen, that we should seek the strengthen the hands of those who desire peace against those in Pakistan who are blinded by the Islamic template.

In other words, you want to strengthen the hands of the .001% against the 99.999%, and expect the percentages to be reversed in the long-term.

Symbolically, I think these percentages are reversed today. IMO, over whelming majority desires peace. This drivel of hate, cannot be sustained over a long term. What we should not do is to score a self goal under the ghosts of the past and disengage. It is only through engagement that we can marginalize even further those that seek to work under an Islamist only template.

[chetak]

{quote="AdityaM"}
The armed forces too will not keep quiet and the government will fall. Many very vocal Ex Servicemen's groups have become extremely adept at portraying the views of the Army.

This stupid government simply does not have the stomach to confront the IA directly just to appease the pakis.{/quote}

The above can be taken care of by the Govt. if the next COAS toes the Govt. line on Siachen.

Doubtless that scenario has been factored in but they have not gauged the public mood. No one will keep quiet.

Look what happened to the eyetalians in kerala. The supreme court has pitched in bypassing the frocks who worked out the preposterous blood money deal and obtained certificates from the victims families " in the name of ......". Third world just painfully kicked in some first world balls

The IA will give a long time frame to withdraw and draw out things till the stupid WKK brigade has left the government.

[chetak]

{quote="ShauryaT"}
Also, it is through CBM's such as Siachen, that we should seek the strengthen the hands of those who desire peace against those in Pakistan who are blinded by the Islamic template.{/quote}

In other words, you want to strengthen the hands of the .001% against the 99.999%, and expect the percentages to be reversed in the long-term.

Symbolically, I think these percentages are reversed today. IMO, over whelming majority desires peace. This drivel of hate, cannot be sustained over a long term. What we should not do is to score a self goal under the ghosts of the past and disengage. It is only through engagement that we can marginalize even further those that seek to work under an Islamist only template.

Such generosity has to be "admired" as indeed your motivations.

You might as well add hyderabad and junadadh to the CBM mix while you are at it.

That is also part of their "Islamist only template".

[chaanakya]

Ok So Am I to understand that behind all this is nothing but media hype. No substance. All positions are where they were. So lets ignore that for a moment.

You want peace with Pakistan. What do you expect would result in peace with Pakistan.

Is this a serious question? I mean, at which level geo-political, security, economic, social, regional, global are there not benefits to peace with Pakistan? There is only one level at which a war is desired with Pakistan and this is if we seek the dissolution of the state of Pakistan. I do not think that goal, serves Indian interests today and neither do we have the wherewithal to enforce it in meaningful time frames.

Shaurya, I thought you are in serious discussion and I was little late in asking questions that you might have answered. But then you wrote this which prompted me to put the question to you again.

You perhaps misunderstood my question. I asked what..... would result in peace with Pakistan. Why do you think Pakistan would say there would be peace if India withdraws from Siachen. Are you prepared to say this? or is this just one of your grand gesture in one way street for peace with Pakistan? No I think Pakistan should develop and find its own place in the World. However If it continues on the path of terror as state policy and confrontational approach with India and rest of the world then I am afraid Its end result would be self dissolution. I dont think it is India's calling to lift Pakistan out of its own morass .

What to make of this comment of yours. Are you serious in this debate. You seem to think it is all media hype and yet persist. You could have debated your position at some other time., Like at the time of 26/11.

I think it is media hype. TSP media has an emotional story for their TRP. Indian media picks up on it and runs it and everyone then speaks out on the matter and you get a grand debate What this debate provides to the polity is the public view. On the ground, in terms of "official" talks, there has been no movement. All positions are where they were, is my read.


I am sold on trying to make the co-option template with Pakistan work. Many on this board are not. I see Siachen as a workable CBM, on the lines of an operational plan that Brig: Kanwal has proposed. Not posting some additional gyan received from some for god only knows what abuses are in store and I am sure with the way many on this board are going, they will be labeled as traitors too and soon no "patriot" will be left in Government of India! .

At present we are not at war. Armies are where they should be. Why do we withdraw from Siachen as CBM?

The CBM can serve a larger purpose, if successful over time. It becomes a potential template for all of the LoC. Also, in terms of Siachen/Saltoro the entire area even west of the Saltoro gets demilitarized, so both sides would withdraw. If you know of a better area on the LoC, less risky, not populated and desolate to start with then please list it here. What it also does is show to both sides that we can indeed compromise and come to a negotiated settlement, on an area of dispute. Especially for an area, which is insane at best to be used as an invasion route for anyone.

The bolded part is important. You are not sure of its success. Why? What makes you hesitant? I dont need to look at my territory and start planning to trade it for peace. Your thinking of land for peace does not work. That is why you are not sure.You think that route can not be used as invasion. For thousands of years India though Himalayas would protect them? History shows us how wrong this thinking was , right from Huns Mongols greeks to China. Any way that area is of importance to us for other reasons including water resources. I have given some estimates in previous post.
Pakistanis are insane as shown in Kargil episode and can not be trusted. You want to trust, thats your opinion. But large number of Indians dont. And this is democracy.

Ok trust deficit is there. What Pakistan has done to bridge this trust deficit. India wants all perpetrators of 26/11 and D etc to be sent to India for trial ( not that i am hopeful of any speedy justice or exemplary punishment, unless you think Chicken biryani served to kasab is one) . If Shuja Pasha visited India as promised by Zardari i n the aftermath of 26/11 these would have been great CBMs for India. It would have signaled that Pakistan has finally abandoned terrorism as a state policy and adopted a different approach with India.

First let them do it. We are pretty comfortable in Siachen and serves as High Altitude Warfare School Training ground, unique in the world. No other army has this experience. Lets preserve it.

The list of Indian issues, needs, desires to build trust is long. The actual sequencing of which gets done first, second and last is open for debate. I completely understand the need for us to see Pakistan to be doing something tangible on the Hafiz and 26/11 front. I have to caution against any grand reliance on gestures of "abandonment" of terrorism as a state policy. As I said earlier, Pakistan is a failing, paranoid and dysfunctional state. I would rather prefer lasting action on the ground. Example: The change of the official education curriculum of the state of Pakistan to eliminate the preaching of hatred towards others will go a long way towards a more conciliatory state. Being able to put a dent on the PA's stranglehold on TSP budget for the military, would be a major coup. But again the list is a long one and varied. Hence, jumping to settle the border in Kashmir, IMO would be a premature move at this stage and hence CBM's are needed.

You also dont know what Pakistan , would give in return. Peace...not sure. Abdicating terror policy ... not sure, handing over wanted ones...not sure. You term them as grand reliance on gesture. Well you also dont trust them and why do you think it is for us to trust them and move first in absence of any forward movement from Pakistan?

As it is a failing state, J&K would settle in due course by itself. When citizens realise that their well being and prosperity lies in Democratic India and not in a failed state called Pakistan.

[chaanakya]

Fair point. First, at the end of the day, we should be clear that it is only through the threat of the use of force that we can guarantee peace. Towards this it should be clear to the opponent that a violation of a CBM, such as Siachen would result in a disproportionate loss not worth the mischief. This sense of a likely disproportionate loss should be clear to the opponent and guaranteed through our capabilities and political will.

Also, it is through CBM's such as Siachen, that we should seek the strengthen the hands of those who desire peace against those in Pakistan who are blinded by the Islamic template.

Disproportionate response? Are you serious? How long it would take before containment strategy kicks in and Political machinery start reining in Army. Did you factor in Nukes with Pakistan, if we go for disproportionate response?

I would say Pakistan would violate Siachen and we would be forced to go for Disproportionate response ultimately to retrieve what would be lost. There would be no strengtheneing of hands of those who desire peace in Pakistan as none are left there. So disproportionate response would invite condemnation and weak moral position of India. I say such an end result is not desirable , especially if your CBM does not guarantee it through reciprocal actions from pakistan. You are not in a position to vouch for Pakistan.
Let them discuss in another 13 rounds of peace talk.

[ShauryaT]

Shaurya, I thought you are in serious discussion and I was little late in asking questions that you might have answered. But then you wrote this which prompted me to put the question to you again.

You perhaps misunderstood my question. I asked what..... would result in peace with Pakistan. Why do you think Pakistan would say there would be peace if India withdraws from Siachen. Are you prepared to say this? or is this just one of your grand gesture in one way street for peace with Pakistan? No I think Pakistan should develop and find its own place in the World. However If it continues on the path of terror as state policy and confrontational approach with India and rest of the world then I am afraid Its end result would be self dissolution. I dont think it is India's calling to lift Pakistan out of its own morass .

Please see this post, I think it may answer to you where I am coming from on this question. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... &p=1263239

What to make of this comment of yours. Are you serious in this debate. You seem to think it is all media hype and yet persist. You could have debated your position at some other time., Like at the time of 26/11.

The Siachen issue is real and so is the proposal for the CBM. The public hype is media related.

The bolded part is important. You are not sure of its success. Why? What makes you hesitant? I dont need to look at my territory and start planning to trade it for peace. Your thinking of land for peace does not work. That is why you are not sure.You think that route can not be used as invasion. For thousands of years India though Himalayas would protect them? History shows us how wrong this thinking was , right from Huns Mongols greeks to China. Any way that area is of importance to us for other reasons including water resources. I have given some estimates in previous post.
Pakistanis are insane as shown in Kargil episode and can not be trusted. You want to trust, thats your opinion. But large number of Indians dont. And this is democracy.

Brig Kanwal's proposals do not advocate an inch of territory to Pakistanis. So, I do not understand your comment. As for Siachen area being used for invasion, I do not think so and many have mentioned why that is so. You can choose to believe otherwise but if you have not studied the geography encourage you to do so. Your comment about Huns/Mongols etc suggest to me, you are probably not familiar with the geography of the area in question. On water resources, under IWT, Indus (Shyok and Nubra are its feeders) is for the exclusive use of TSP. So, do not understand where you are coming from on the issue of water.

I think this debate needs to move beyond the levels of Pakistanis are folks with green horns and the assignment to them of mythical powers of being able to invade India. Caution yes, fear no. Kargil was enough for me to see their prowress (I am being sarcastic). Another 10 years from today, the current 7:1 economic gap will only widen. The current 5:1 fire power ratios will widen. On C4I2SR there is no comparison. I am more confident of our ability to subdue Pakistan or any of its stupidities in the future to come. My only worry is, will our political establishment be bold about these opportunities and make their call, instead of wasting away precious time.

I have said enough for the day.

[eklavya]

However, Pakistanis or muslims anywhere are not just governed by this one template alone or even a uniform view of this template. There are many other influences on the muslim population minds of daily bread and butter and of the inherent spiritual nature of man. I treat this Islamic template as a wool over their eyes and it is in our interests to work towards removing this wool or at least its darkest elements, over time and not allow it to succeed. NONE of the past hindu empires have even tried this and that has been their tragic mistake. A mistake that we have paid dearly for. We can only wage war and subdue them or engage and make peace. Cannot hope and wait for them to come to their senses on their own. It does not happen that way in the real world. The Cease Fire agreement and subsequent reduction in terrorism support from Pakistan as evidenced was a result of Parakram and other acts of the government at that time. We need to continue and build this momentum and not loose it.

Shaurya, I fully agree with you that the democratic will in Pakistan is in favour of peace with India, peace with Afghanistan, and peace in their own land.

But guess what, the interest group called the Pakistan Army cares 2.5 hoots about the democratic will of the people of Pakistan (remember why Bangladesh was created?). The Pakistan Army has been subverting democracy in Pakistan for the last 65 years and may continue to do so for as long as they can get away with it (hello Imran Khan!).

Enemity with India earns them a big budget, lots of prestige, lots of power and wealth. For a Pakistani Army general, peaceful relations with India may be a fate worse than hell (imagine if their budgetary resources are reduced to the same league as the Bangladesh Army).

What broke the Soviet Union in the end was financial bankruptcy (the moral bankruptcy lasted 72 years).

Pakistan has already been broken in half (how difficult our life would be if E Pakistan was still part of that country).

If they bleed themselves dry by competing strategically with India, fighting NATO, fighting the Afghan army, etc., then so be it. The sooner this monster called the Pakistan Army kills itself, the better.

An agreement on Siachen with these Pakistan Army snakes will make them stronger. How can we be so damn naive to feed this monster ...

[chetak]

An agreement on Siachen with these Pakistan Army snakes will make them stronger. How can we be so damn naive to feed this monster ...

As long as they continue to have a strong fifth column in India. This seems to be fed right from the top.

[chaanakya]

Please see this post, I think it may answer to you where I am coming from on this question. http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/postin ... &p=1263239
Brig Kanwal's proposals do not advocate an inch of territory to Pakistanis. So, I do not understand your comment. As for Siachen area being used for invasion, I do not think so and many have mentioned why that is so. You can choose to believe otherwise but if you have not studied the geography encourage you to do so. Your comment about Huns/Mongols etc suggest to me, you are probably not familiar with the geography of the area in question. On water resources, under IWT, Indus (Shyok and Nubra are its feeders) is for the exclusive use of TSP. So, do not understand where you are coming from on the issue of water.

I think this debate needs to move beyond the levels of Pakistanis are folks with green horns and the assignment to them of mythical powers of being able to invade India. Caution yes, fear no. Kargil was enough for me to see their prowress (I am being sarcastic). Another 10 years from today, the current 7:1 economic gap will only widen. The current 5:1 fire power ratios will widen. On C4I2SR there is no comparison. I am more confident of our ability to subdue Pakistan or any of its stupidities in the future to come. My only worry is, will our political establishment be bold about these opportunities and make their call, instead of wasting away precious time.

I have said enough for the day.

Well from the link you quoted.

A peaceful neighborhood is essential for even controlled and managed growth.

Peace in Pakistan is not undesirable. Nobody would find fault with that. But stability and peace and Prosperity in pakistan is contingent upon many factors and all of which are in the hands of pakistanis to control. In fact India has done a very little to hinder Pakistani progress. Siachen would not even bring pakistan from the brink of disaster. They need to get their priorities right and set the environment for growth and stability and create condition conducive for others to trust them.

We just need to contain them within their border and LOC etc.

As regards water , perhaps you are reading IWT too shallowly as a Pakistani would read it. That is their constant gripe despite India adhering to IWT. But rest assured we would be in legitimate use of water if we so decide.

Regarding geography etc, I would rather go by detailed post given by rohitvats and of course if you have visited the area ( I have not) then that affords you some credibility. but then Army is there day in and day out and they are familiar with the terrain but those in favour of Siachen CBM do not want to give credit to them. I would think they are the last word on that and so far Army has not shown inclination to withdraw. They don't agree with you while so many on this board don't either. Don't know about incoming COAS.

I am really glad that you think economic gap would widen and I hope prosperity of India would cause them to pause and think on their confrontational policies pursued so far.

Your faith is our ever growing firepower is heartening but you seem to ignore Nukes which a desparate man can use. We need to keep constantly on guard.