Artillery Discussion Thread

nits · Post by **nits** » 16 Feb 2011 09:35

Yesterday i was watching a Program on Discovery which was showing how Germans progressed so swiftly in WW2 because of there superb and Huge Artillery support. They used massive 400 MM Guns (pic below) and it proved very costly for allied forces...

I know its not something which can be straigtforwardly comapred but i felt pity at the same time that here AI is struggling with basic 155 MM Guns...

Gurneesh · Post by **Gurneesh** » 16 Feb 2011 10:23

Mi-17IV has an external load limit of 5tons. M777 weighs 3.2 tons.....Why would we need to buy chinooks then ?

Might be a different story if we were to buy Pegasus (weighs 5.2 tons).

jai · Post by **jai** » 16 Feb 2011 11:20

How do you get the tracked Howitzer deep into the mountains? Just because it is tracked does not mean it will get anywhere.

This is where the GREF / Border Roads need to come in with their contribution - create the roads needed to get the guns close enough to all places of potential action. These guns should be able to do the rest - from upto 40 - 50 kms away from the target.

Good roads is a logistic pre-requisite now and no longer a luxury.....60 years of apathy in this sector now needs to be quickly fixed.

We will have to look for a composite solution along with MLRS, ULH, etc etc.....Cheers !

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Feb 2011 11:44

I can't understand the naievty of those who think that just because there is an FMS deal there cannot be any kickbacks involved.The beauty of an FMS deal is that the price is fixed by the seller and you either "take it or leave it".No competition whatsoever.If one then further thinks that the arms manufacturers do not provide for kickbacks,just travel back into time and examine the various scandals that have taken place.The last mega deal and controversy has been the Typhoon deal by Britain with the Saudis,with huge well-documented evidence that it was fishy and that the allegations that there were kickbacks was well-founded.But what happened? Govt. ministers went on to criticise the so-called "watchdogs" and praised it for serving British interests,jobs at stake,blah,blah.The entire issue has been buried,that too in Britain! The US on the other hand is the godfather of corrupt deals where the govt. has paid off rulers all over the world with huge kickbacks.The manner of pay-offsis legion.Tony Blair allegedly being paid off for supporting the uS in the illegal Iraq War with his numerous lecture trips where he earns millions each year from speaking to various groups even supposedly sanitaryware manufacturers! He was also given the role of Middle-East "Peacemaker",never visited Gaza at all and was given all the diplomatic trappings of a UN peace envoy!

PS:Some latest revelations about that illegal war.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/fe ... s-iraq-war

Defector admits to WMD lies that triggered Iraq war• Man codenamed Curveball 'invented' tales of bioweapons
• Iraqi told lies to try to bring down Saddam Hussein regime
• Fabrications used by US as justification for invasion

sum · Post by **sum** » 16 Feb 2011 13:55

Was the gun failed in one sub-set of a parameter like air-trasportability or did it miss the bus completely? Why is FAIL being construed as if the gun has completely failed under the said parameter? How come you're taking DDM at face value,that too about such a controversial topic, and blaming the IA for the issue? You yourself don't have the answer and yet, you feel comfortable in bashing the IA? What gives?

Rohit-ji,

Have nothing against the IA and frankly, dont care if we even buy Paki 155mm guns going by the speed at which we are acquiring them.

Maybe, i should have blamed both the IA and MoD for the continuing artillery fiasco. Whatever it is, it now seems even the 777s are in doubt :
Howitzer deal put on hold till Army files report

NEW DELHI: The Ministry of Defence has sought answers from the Army on the leak of the trial report of ultra light howitzers as an embarrassed A K Antony on Tuesday sought to reassure that acquisitions would not be allowed to be manipulated.

This is the second case in recent months when documents relating to a high-ticket deal came out of the realm of secrecy exposing vulnerability of acquisition process in which billions are at stake. In the first case, the MoD itself was responsible when a file relating to IAF’s multi-role combat jet contract was found roadside. Though inquiry revealed the file did not contain any confidential information that could have jeopardised an estimated $11 billion deal, it established that rules of handling sensitive documents were flouted.

The Defence Minister has now asked its official to be more careful. The MoD officials said howitzer acquisition process would come to a halt until conclusion of Army’s high level probe. This meant yet another setback for Army’s plan to add new artillery to compensate for gun drought since Bofors scandal broke out.

In January, Army chief V K Singh had hoped that 145 M777 ultra-light howitzers, manufactured by BAE Systems and offered through the foreign military sales by the US for $647 million, would be acquired within this year. The Army officials tried to explain that the five pages from a comprehensive trial report were not enough to give an impression about the results.

During the trials, Indian ammunition was fired from the guns, said officials. What has come to light is the fact that by circulating unsigned papers, an attempt was being made to get the contract scrapped. A similar attempt was made around three months ago when some media persons received unsigned documents claiming that the M777 deal should not be finalised as the gun was not required by the Army.

Both PLA and TSPA must be

in their HQs

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 16 Feb 2011 14:12

Can anyone please tell why British (BAE Systems) weapon is procured through FMS route? Or is it that BAE ownership has already crossed Atlantic?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 16 Feb 2011 18:34

That news item is clears one thing - there is a strong lobby against the M-777 acquisition.

Sometimes back, I had said that foreign firms tying up with Indian counterparts could prove to a boon to Indian arty acquisition plans - the Indian partner will know how to work the system better. But guess, I forgot to see the double-edged nature of the sword - they'd also know how to unhinge the system.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Feb 2011 19:46

^^^

Rohit, some how I don't share your optimism WRT the 155MMs resulting from collaboration from foreign partners. because in that case the loosers will cry to Renuka anuti and that deal will get scrapped.

The below write up was some thign that I had written in December but never posted.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Every one and his unkil is disigning a medium weight truck mounted 155 mm SPH and 155 MM towed howitzer. The Indian army started looking for the item 25 years ago. The initial selection which met the IA requirement was the FH 77B. A great design which served the nation wonderfully during the Kargil war.

Then, the virus of corruption struck. For the past 20 years I have watched the drama regarding the 155 mm guns. The IA has issued tender upon tender for the supply of the guns and in the process ended up blacklisting each and every one of the established 155MM vendor on the planet. The extent of the farce is such that only the Serbians, South Koreans & the Turks remain to be blacklisted. If they enter the fray it will come as no surprise, if they get blacklisted as well due to some trumped up charges of corruption.

What I find surprising is that the IA keeps on asking for imported gear. It has never asked for the domestic industry to deliver the weapon. Nor has the DRDO told the army that it can deliver the solution. The OFB has displayed the 45 cal upgraded for the Fh 77 B but the army has not been interested.

Now that the domestic pvt sector is on the verge of being allowed into weapons manufacture. The army will be well served to ask the domestic industry to deliver the weapon. However, I have reservations in this as well.

Just what will it take for the IA to ask for a domestic product from domestic suppliers, an act of god??. Or will the IA tell god to STFU.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 16 Feb 2011 19:49

That maybe the only way we will get 155 mm guns

Capture Paki ones

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 16 Feb 2011 21:05

Well if you see the UPA modus operandi any time any acquistion that enhances the strike capability is about to be made a leak will be made and Mr. Clean will stop the acquisiton. He is more worried about is image than the acquisiton and at higher level ie MMS, its CBM of the UPA to TSP. To beat that the IA started saying the PRC front is weak and managed to get troops and formations raised as INC cant afford another 1962 debacle on their watch.

Now even that is being stalled.

And IA falls for the trick every time. Next terrorist attack, PM will call IA chief and say how many days to get ready? IA chief will say three months and then US will rush in with pressure to talk . And MMS will say what to do only talks are the best option for forces are unready!

To beat the cycle the IA should keep a few divisions ready along with half the IAF ready to standby on 72 hr notice and one third of the IN in Arabina Sea at all times. Off course A-III et al on standby for escalation control.

So be ready to got to war on 24 hr notice with available forces and then move the follow-on formations .

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 17 Feb 2011 09:17

Surya wrote:That maybe the only way we will get 155 mm guns

Capture Paki ones

Has anybody thought of getting M 198 s from unkil? They gave a bunch of them to pak( so maybe for once we could be the ones asking for some == and "restore the balance").

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Feb 2011 09:35

ramana wrote:Well if you see the UPA modus operandi any time any acquistion that enhances the strike capability is about to be made a leak will be made and Mr. Clean will stop the acquisiton. He is more worried about is image than the acquisiton and at higher level ie MMS, its CBM of the UPA to TSP. To beat that the IA started saying the PRC front is weak and managed to get troops and formations raised as INC cant afford another 1962 debacle on their watch.

Now even that is being stalled.

And IA falls for the trick every time. Next terrorist attack, PM will call IA chief and say how many days to get ready? IA chief will say three months and then US will rush in with pressure to talk . And MMS will say what to do only talks are the best option for forces are unready!

To beat the cycle the IA should keep a few divisions ready along with half the IAF ready to standby on 72 hr notice and one third of the IN in Arabina Sea at all times. Off course A-III et al on standby for escalation control.

So be ready to got to war on 24 hr notice with available forces and then move the follow-on formations .

One cannot help thinking that a sustained effort is underway to wither down Indian Army's offensive capability, along with the Navy's submarine force.Neither can be brought to adequate force levels in the coming decade if these ulterior interests have their way.

Oh by the way the 50,000 crore navy tender is another one that is likely to be 'scammed'

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 17 Feb 2011 13:30

Those arguing againt the M777 should realie that our condition is so desparate that any infusion of 155mm guns will do. A transparent competition will mean endless trials with no operational guns when we need them the most.

What one observes is that press freedom is a huge tool in the hands of those who want to constrict our defence ability. At least in these matters, the pres/media s should have no freedom to voice anything other than what the relevant military authority (there must be a department within the army in this case to monitor this matter) allows it to say.

The bigger problem is that democracy has come to mean a free for all in our country. In certain strategic matters like armed forces procurements, these freedoms must be restricted. NO questions whatsoever must be allowed once the final procurement decision is taken. Not even b CAG/CBI and other non military entities. After all, the CAG/CBI have NO IDEA whatsoever of larger national interests and defence requirements...

Even if this means there ill be some corruption, at least it will ensure that reasonably good equipment reaches the armed forces' hands without these endless debates.

Certainly, TSPA and PLA are corrupt as well: but they manage to equip themselves well thanks to non-interference by civilians...At this rate, the armed forces will have to take every citizen's permission (leftist intellectuals included) to modernize...

ramdas · Post by **ramdas** » 17 Feb 2011 14:11

would you be willing to lose a war to prevent whosoever will gain from our desperate purchases from gaining ? At this rate, you will say that we can only purchase weapons when an equivalent of Sri Ramachandra is there at the helm....

Even if the decision to procure were taken with absolute integrity, in todays environment, we will have journalists asking questions about it, followed by probes by CAG/CBI and other such idiots ...by the time the weapon reaches the forces, it will be very late....this MUST STOP. We cannot allow assorted vested interests/assorted mislead elements to delay the weapon procuement process. Period. We must learn from TSP when it comes to weapon procurement and protecting the armed forces' interests. The armed forces' interests should be sacrosanct.

vardhank · Post by **vardhank** » 17 Feb 2011 14:51

ramdas wrote:
Even if this means there ill be some corruption, at least it will ensure that reasonably good equipment reaches the armed forces' hands without these endless debates.

Really? Heard of the T-90? There HAS to be a check.

Yes, in this case I believe the leak is rubbish (and I wish AKA would decide to simply go ahead with purchase - even if the M777 isn't perfect, it's still the best we can get to fill that requirement), but letting someone play with billions of dollars and saying that they should not be answerable "because of national security reasons" or something like that doesn't work at all.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 17 Feb 2011 16:31

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 17 Feb 2011 18:17

ramana wrote:And IA falls for the trick every time. Next terrorist attack, PM will call IA chief and say how many days to get ready? IA chief will say three months and then US will rush in with pressure to talk . And MMS will say what to do only talks are the best option for forces are unready!

To beat the cycle the IA should keep a few divisions ready along with half the IAF ready to standby on 72 hr notice and one third of the IN in Arabina Sea at all times. Off course A-III et al on standby for escalation control. So be ready to got to war on 24 hr notice with available forces and then move the follow-on formations .

This may be off-topic for the Artillery Thread, but such reactionary thinking is a seriously flawed approach to national security issues. You are cedeing the initiative completely to the enemy: He gets to decide (i) when to launch the terrorist attack, (ii) when to expect the counter-response (as per you, at 24H), and (iii) how to forumlate his political and military narrative around a campaign he initiates.

Here is where the so-called Cold Start "Doctrine" fell apart. It is a very important capability to be able to mobilize forces quickly and efficiently (cold start); Indian armed forces have been working on it since mid-1990s when they discovered weaknesses in this regard. However, it is a completely counter-productive exercise to mobilize the forces in response to enemy's action; a clever foe can easily game a rigid and inflexible system to their own ends.

<preachyMode>
A pro-active, flexible and long-term view must be taken to this issue. The next time a PM asks, How many days to get ready? The services chiefs should count out the number of months to the next October, if it comes to less than six -- add another twelve months to that number. That is what Sam Bahadur did -- he held out for 8 months from the time the PM first started asking for action, he got everything in his responsibilities ready, and he bought time for others to get their things ready as well. If BRF does anything productive at all, it should be to inculcate the three Vs in balance as part and parcel of all outlook.
</preachyMode>

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 17 Feb 2011 18:21

the old soviets apart from keeping a formidable frontline force in east germany, had a system of 'alarms' by which essential people could be notified and mobilized in minutes to maybe have a few divisions cross the border in a hours after being intimated.

so cold start is probably not an option but hot start ie a high level of "defcon2" level preparaedness will scare the crap out of anyone - esp the pakis.

but it has its own cost in terms of wear and tear, lack of proper upkeep in the field, disruption to family life, COST (something the soviets never really cared about) etc.

so maybe a uber-powerful AF that can rape anyone twice over in a couple of hrs is the best/most pragmatic way out ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Feb 2011 20:59

ParGha, Have you heard the Boy Scouts motto "Be Prepared"? Will the IA higher ups is opposite.

GD, However that powerful airforce will be based in Kanya Kumari as a CBM to TSP and claim its to protect South India!

ParGha · Post by **ParGha** » 17 Feb 2011 22:23

ramana wrote:ParGha, Have you heard the Boy Scouts motto "Be Prepared"? Will the IA higher ups is opposite.

GD, However that powerful airforce will be based in Kanya Kumari as a CBM to TSP and claim its to protect South India!

You are suggesting that even if the armed forces were prepared and capable, there would be no political will to make use of them? That is really well above and beyond the military's paygrade and realm of responsibilities. No amount of preparation can help you there.

The professional soldier's duty is to advice, apply and manage violence. Management is a balancing act; preparation is just one of the tasks in management, and it has to be balanced with other competing considerations like attrition. While it is the right of the political masters' (in this case of democracy, the Indian people) to demand constant readiness and immediate counter-attacks, it is the responsibility of the soldier to advice on the means to achieving the larger political objectives through other means when applicable. I am only a student of their history, but I can extrapolate how their successful figures would approach this issue.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 21 Feb 2011 03:55

Army to probe howitzer trial leak

An informal inquiry has already zeroed in on a recently retired brigadier, who was in the weapons and equipment directorate of the Army headquarters, and some officers of the artillery directorate. The brigadier, while in service, had asked for the draft report of the field trial for a single day. Officers in artillery directorate handling the trial sent the report to the brigadier without following due procedure, sources said. The inquiry showed that more than one officer was involved in leaking the trial report, sources said. Computers used by the trial team in Gurgaon and the northeast have been seized and sent for forensic examination.

nits · Post by **nits** » 25 Feb 2011 18:20

Meanwhile - M777 gets its 1001 Order...

Link-

An order for 46 M777 howitzers from the U.S. Department of Defense takes the total number of guns ordered to 1001. The order comes as BAE Systems continues deliveries of M777 to Canada and Australia, in addition to the U.S.
Weighing in at less than 4200kg, the revolutionary M777 is the world’s first artillery weapon to make widespread use of titanium and aluminium alloys, resulting in a howitzer which is half the weight of conventional 155mm systems. As a result, it can be deployed by medium-lift helicopters quickly and beyond the reach of roadside bombs to otherwise inaccessible areas, extending its reach over the theater of operations.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 25 Feb 2011 21:17

Cannot understand why the entire M777 process was stopped based on a single letter and a leaked document. Since it was in a such advance stage why cant MOD simply go ahead and buy the stuff and let the investigation go in parellel. I m sure people who want to sabotage this deal will pull out more tricks even after investigations are complete. Its quarter of a century since we last bought the field guns. Defence projects that were on drawing board 25 years back have today become successful products today(LCA, Arjun, Agni,Delhi class ships, ALH) to name a few and here MOD is groping in the dark to invent a 'proper procedure' and 'correct methodology' as it was then, to simply buy a few guns. Typical babu mentality of playing safe even if nation becomes unsafe for want of guns.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Feb 2011 15:24

The thing that in unclear to me is how can kickbacks be paid in India when it is govt to govt deal.

Who is paying and who is receiving the money.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 26 Feb 2011 15:42

I don't think there are any explicit allegations of of bribery, yet.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 04 Mar 2011 06:09

Army chief to discuss howitzer procurement during US visit

In his meeting with the US military officials, Singh is likely to discuss the procurement of M-777 ULH from the US through the Foreign Military Sales (FMS) route for the artillery, which has not inducted a new gun for the last 25 years, defence sources said today.
:
:
During the visit, the Army chief is expected to discuss the procurement of the Javelin missile system, which again has been offered to India through the FMS route, the sources said.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 05 Mar 2011 01:53

Delhi court accepts CBI plea to close case against Quattrocchi

NEW DELHI: After the CBI spent Rs 250 crore on probing the Bofors kickbacks scam over 24 years, a Delhi court on Friday allowed the agency to withdraw prosecution of Italian businessman Ottavio Quattrocchi, the lone surviving accused in the politically sensitive case.

Terming the investigations in the case as an exercise with no result, chief metropolitan magistrate Vinod Yadav chose to close the case against Quattrocchi in larger public interest and subsequently discharged him.

The judge said despite spending through its nose for about 21 years, the CBI has not been able to put forward legally sustainable evidence with regard to conspiracy in the matter. In case of Quattrocchi, as against alleged kickbacks of Rs 64 crore, the CBI by the year 2005 had already spent around Rs 250 crore on the investigations, which is sheer wastage of public money, said the judge.

In its 73-page detailed order, the court said the country could not afford to spend hard-earned money of 'aam admi' on Quattrocchi's extradition, which had already cost Rs 250 crore. "Can we allow this hard earned money of aam aadmi of India to be spent on these type of proceedings which are not going to do any good to them, after almost 25 years of the so-called arms deal? The answer would be a big no," he said.

This is no guarantee, however, that the last has been heard of the defence scandal, which is said to have led to the Rajiv Gandhi government's exit in 1989. For, the intervener-advocate, Ajay Aggarwal, said he would appeal against the order which held that he had no locus standi in the case.

Also the Income Tax Appellate Tribunal order on December 31, 2010, that kickbacks amounting to Rs 41 crore were paid to the late Win Chaddha and Quattrocchi and withholding tax was illegal, the case is not dead yet.

While rejecting Aggarwal's plea that CBI's reprieve to Quattrocchi was politically motivated, Yadav said Aggarwal was interested in "attaining cheap publicity" and had no public interest. The court's decision comes a year and a half after CBI moved an application seeking permission to withdraw the case against Quattrocchi.

The CBI said his continued prosecution was "unjustified" in the light of various factors, including the agency's failed attempts extradite him from Malaysia and Argentina. CBI had in October 2009 moved the trial court for closing the case after withdrawing the Red Corner Notice against Quattrocchi in April that year.

The court also put forth a question on whether it was justified for the government and CBI to continue spending on extraditing "Q", which may or may not ultimately happen during his lifetime. Detailing point-by-point the reasons of CBI to withdraw the case, the court said the public prosecutor had applied his independent mind on the aspect that the plea was bona fide and filed in the larger public interest.

The court found merit in CBI's plea that two earlier attempts to extradite Quattrocchi from two different countries have "miserably failed". In his order on Friday, the CMM, while giving relief to Quattrocchi, took into account the CBI argument that his extradition may not be possible in near future in view of the decisions by courts in Malaysia and Argentina.

The CMM sought to bring the curtains down on the issue, saying India was already suffering from a "governance deficit", leading the aam admi in remote villages surviving without basic civic amenities. "While we are busy discussing the Sensex and scams, India's poorest are barely surviving, thanks to an appalling governance deficit. In some areas of our country, we have no electricity, no roads, no proper water facilities," said Yadav.

Well after all this, they realize that it is a failed attempt and is a wastage of "aam admni's" money.. Penny wise and pound foolish!!
Just in time for the M-777 Howitzer deal to get underway..

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 05 Mar 2011 05:39

^^^ Appalling ... I don't know how to react. Whatever was meant as justice! Impotence is passed off as "larger common good".

P.S. sorry for the vent and the "wastage" of space on this.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Mar 2011 09:09

Indian Army to get 2 new gun systems

Light weight and regular 155mm? let us see if they get over the Bofors scandal

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 15 Mar 2011 09:59

^^Chacko, the way things are going now you can safely reproduce the same article 10 years hence without it looking out of place.

sum · Post by **sum** » 15 Mar 2011 10:16

chackojoseph wrote:Indian Army to get 2 new gun systems

Light weight and regular 155mm? let us see if they get over the Bofors scandal

^^ Can only

every time i read such a article which will faithfully turn up once every 4- 5years....Wonder if there is any Defence Min who has not uttered these exact words since the 90s..

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 15 Mar 2011 10:38

Lol, they never said 2 new systems in past.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 15 Mar 2011 11:23

Now, we can expect that it will take another 10 years of trials and 10 years of blacklisting of suppliers. If a start is made now, in 10 years you can safely have a home made system for use by the IA.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 15 Mar 2011 11:51

ParGha wrote:
ramana wrote:ParGha, Have you heard the Boy Scouts motto "Be Prepared"? Will the IA higher ups is opposite.

GD, However that powerful airforce will be based in Kanya Kumari as a CBM to TSP and claim its to protect South India!
You are suggesting that even if the armed forces were prepared and capable, there would be no political will to make use of them? That is really well above and beyond the military's paygrade and realm of responsibilities. No amount of preparation can help you there.

I agree with ParGha here.
Indian situation is unique and the enemy and the geo political forces have been waiting for India to respond to provocation.

India has learned the way to be patient and wait it out until the geo political situation is suitable. It is nearing now.

koti · Post by **koti** » 15 Mar 2011 13:42

Putting an end to the drama, IMO a publicized list of Armys evaluation and preference list will silence a few.

In this way, there is no point for the leading company to do something stupid and the rest can be cleared out easily.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 26 Mar 2011 18:21

DRDO may field Indigenous 155-mm gun for the Indian Army by end of 2013

By admin at 26 March, 2011, 5:34 am

SOURCE : Ajay Naik For Security Magazine

Indian army which is struggling to purchase 155-mm Guns for itself for the past 9 years might wait little longer and for an indigenously developed 155-mm towed gun. Many of the guns which were offered by foreign vendors are already blacklisted by Ministry of Defence due various ill-regulatories and allegations of corruption that includes some of the top companies like, Singapore Technologies Kinetics (STK); Germany’s Rheinmetall; Israel Military Industries (IMI); and another Israeli company, Soltam. Denel, a South African company, had been blacklisted earlier;

155-mm gun Project will be a Public-Private joint venture between DRDO and Bharat Forge / Larsen & Toubro. ARDE one of the DRDO Laboratory has already taken up the work and is carrying out preliminary work of the project.

ARDE designed Arjun’s Tanks 120mm Riffle bore guns and even developed the 105mm Indian Field Gun (IFG), Indian army is likely to work with ARDE on this project and is keen on this project to avoid further delays in inducting 155mm guns.

Indian army which has a requirement of more than 1400 of 155-mm Guns is now counting on ARDE to pull it out of this mess and deliver this guns for trails by 2013 at best, while ARDE with help from Private sector is confident to produce one by 2013 and give it for Army Trials.

http://idrw.org/?p=1242

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 26 Mar 2011 19:26

^^^

The preliminary reading indicates a totally indigenous project. The question is will the IA wait for this project to reach completion. Additionally what will the length of the trials be.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Mar 2011 03:54

mm.. why they did not start the project few years back? It would be better IA is teamed in and make them be the user/stake holder right from the beginning.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 27 Mar 2011 08:42

Craig Alpert wrote:The judge said despite spending through its nose for about 21 years, the CBI has not been able to put forward legally sustainable evidence with regard to conspiracy in the matter. In case of Quattrocchi, as against alleged kickbacks of Rs 64 crore, the CBI by the year 2005 had already spent around Rs 250 crore on the investigations, which is sheer wastage of public money, said the judge.

My Jain Marwadi client has this to say "our community is so particular about money that we will burn Rs 10 oil in order to find where did the 1 paisa go." What he meant was there has to be accountability. Something our judge dose not understand. 250 crores is nothing compared to the size of arms deals currently being dolled out. Hopefully it will serve as a reminder.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 27 Mar 2011 09:23

The judge is not right. He cannot look at crimes through cost benefit point of view. Its whether the crime was committed or not. The CBI spent the money because the entire political class prevented them from coming to conclusions and led them on wild goose chase the world over. The judge's remarks are adding insult to injury.