India-China News and Discussion

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 27 Sep 2009 22:18

But the tone of a lot of British writing on China is refreshingly different from the simplistic garbage put out in America (of course Hong Kong might have something to do with it).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Sep 2009 18:58

Wishful thinking!....that India will "allow" Chinese troops to police Afghanistan.

SINOGRAPH
Chinese troops offer an Afghan solution
By Francesco Sisci

BEIJING - On August 11, China's People's Liberation Army (PLA) kicked off its largest military maneuver in decades. About 50,000 troops, drawn from each of the seven military commands, were deployed by "rail and air transport" to unfamiliar territories far from their garrison training bases. The goal of the exercise was "to improve [the PLA's] capacity of long-range projection", reported the official Chinese news agency Xinhua.

The PLA, therefore, was not staging maneuvers to prepare for a hypothetical invasion of Taiwan, as it has done in many of its past exercises. Those "Taiwan maneuvers" had very little practical use, as many generals have conceded that even if China were to attack the island, it would do so through rockets and missiles, not
by trying to land thousands of soldiers on Taiwan's beaches.

Those maneuvers served only to exert psychological pressure on the Taiwanese population. It worked to a small degree, in the sense that the Taiwanese were scared, but it backfired in that the Taiwanese were not intimidated into submitting to China, conversely, they were convinced to resist China's reunification pulls.

Since those self-defeating initiatives, the PLA has become smarter, but it still has political goals behind each of its announced maneuvers. In this case, the PLA is thinking of long-range projection - that is, sending troops out of Chinese territory for special purposes. The one territory that needs troops and where Chinese soldiers could be deployed is Afghanistan.

With its latest exercises, China could be winking at the North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO) and the United States - both of which are presently engaged in Afghanistan - saying, we have troops, they are trained, and we could send them over.

NATO needs more troops in Afghanistan. Even though the combined number of foreign troops there now stands at about 100,000, the territory is infamously mountainous and inhospitable. It is twice as big as Italy, and slightly smaller than the US state of Texas.

With 33 million people, over half of them below the age of 25, the country's median age is 17.6; that is, over half of the population has been born and raised seeing nothing but war. Over 80% of the population is illiterate, yet most of the men are proud owners of rifles which they have used many times.

Much of the economy is based on drug trafficking (according to estimates, Afghanistan produces some 70% of the world's total opium output) and international aid - two polluting elements in any society and even more so in a country torn by war for the past 30 years.

In this situation, given the restive and hostile Taliban and the tribal leaders waging war on the Kabul government, the number of troops deployed is a pittance.

In addition to the about 100,000 foreign troops, there are "contract workers" (that is, mercenaries working for Kabul) who could number as many as 40,000. The present objective of the Barack Obama administration is to raise the Afghan security forces to as many as 250,000.

The grand, optimistic total would thus be about 400,000 troops to police a land across which are scattered at least 10 million young, angry, illiterate, toughened and armed men. By comparison, Italy, with no real insurgency to speak of, and about 60 million inhabitants, has over 600,000 police and troops confronting just a few thousand armed criminals in a territory half the size.

Such comparisons are difficult, but certainly these numbers tell us that in no way can even 400,000 troops bring security to Afghanistan in the present situation. And the figure of 400,000 is very optimistic for many reasons, such as taking for granted the loyalty of the Afghan troops.

In this situation, even if China were to send 50,000 troops - all of those which took part in the August maneuver - it would make a difference, but not enough of one. As much as it needs more boots on the ground, Kabul needs a better political settlement along its borders to make those boots effective.

The first problem is Pakistan. The country is a well-established haven for the Taliban, who can cross the porous border at will to launch raids into Afghanistan.

Pakistan's intelligence and security forces have for a long time trained and financed the militancy in divided Kashmir, where jihadis cross into Indian-administered Kashmir to tackle Indian security forces. [1] Technically, Pakistan has stopped supporting these jihadis, but it still keeps an eye on them, thus keeping alive channels of communication and collaboration.

Many of these Kashmiri militants have good connections with the Afghan Taliban, in many cases they are the same people - they pray in the same mosques, studied in the same madrassas (seminaries), and they can fight just as well in Kashmir as in Afghanistan. In this way, the Pakistani security forces, by helping the Kashmiri cause, also help the Taliban cause.

Pakistan makes no secret that it doesn't like the Kabul government, which it considers too "pro-New Delhi", and it is no secret that Islamabad fears being squeezed by India controlling Afghanistan. In this way, it is in Pakistan's best interests to keep the Kashmiri insurgency alive, at least to prod the Indians and have more bargaining chips with them - it is also in Pakistan's interests to "liven up" things in Afghanistan.

Indeed, the situation might be too lively for Pakistan's own good, as the Taliban have established control in much of the tribal areas. However, while high temperatures are dangerous, they also mean greater American attention, thus more aid and more Pakistani political leverage in Washington.

Even poppy cultivation has a place in this puzzle. The poppies are cultivated in Afghanistan, but reach the world with the help of people in Pakistan and Iran, who are lining their pockets and who thus allow the situation to fester. An eradication policy for opium poppies must be found, but enforcing it will only be possible if the traffickers are curtailed.

In sum, if there is no political solution with Pakistan that conclusively stops its support of Kashmiri or Taliban militants, Afghanistan will never be at peace.

Afghanistan was peaceful only before the Soviet invasion of 1979, when the country kept a balance with its neighbors and relied heavily on Pakistan. After the Soviets - Cold War allies of the Indians - invaded Afghanistan, Islamabad felt it was being squeezed and fought hard and successfully to draw the Americans into the conflict.

Even now, if Pakistan is not totally on the side of the foreign troops in Afghanistan, the Taliban will never be stopped. Seeking security in Afghanistan in the present situation would be like trying to empty a bathtub full of water by opening the drain but keeping the faucet running.

One solution for the US in Afghanistan would be to simply pull out and entrust the Pakistanis with overall security, while keeping a watchful eye on developments in Pakistan and Afghanistan. This was the situation in the 1990s, except the US simply forgot to monitor developments, didn't heed the cries for help from Pakistan, and things went awry, with the Taliban coming to power in 1996.

Ideally, Pakistan and India should find a solution to the Kashmir problem. This would start a circle of bilateral trust which would lead to the militants being stopped. But no solution has been found for Kashmir in over 60 years, so we can hardly hope for a resolution now.

Less ideally but more practically, China could send troops to Afghanistan and open a comprehensive regional dialogue on Afghanistan, involving also the Russians and the Iranians - besides the Americans, Pakistanis and Afghans.

The value of Chinese troops on the ground could be political. In the past 60 years, China has been an unflinching Pakistani ally, and its presence on the ground could be a pledge to keep Afghanistan in "Pakistani hands". On the other hand, India should agree to leave Afghanistan to Pakistan, in return for a Pakistani back-down over Kashmir. This latter agreement would be very difficult, but it could be helped by the Indians agreeing to Chinese troops in Afghanistan.

All this would not only serve the purpose of having more foot soldiers on the ground, it would serve the Pakistani interest of wresting Afghanistan from the Taliban's hands. Pakistan should close the faucet so the flood of militants will dry up.

Without a political solution and a political goal, any military solution will by definition be defeated.

The above reasoning is based on a political goal: to minimize the Taliban's insurgency so much that Afghanistan can safely be crossed by pipelines, roads, goods and tourists. This is regardless of who rules in Kabul - whether it is current President Hamid Karzai or anyone else, or whether the government is a democracy or something else.

Note
1. See author's interview with Zhang Xiaodong L'Iran tra Cina e Usa La Stampa, March 3, 2009.

Francesco Sisci is the Asia Editor of La Stampa.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affa ... ution.html

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 28 Sep 2009 22:16

I am actually for Chinese principle of rejoining North and South Tibet and following UN resolutions to that effect..lets integrate North and South Tibet as China wants to do for the Tibetan people, but lets follow UN regulations also:

12 December 1961

Resolution 1723 (XVI) called for "the cessation of practices which deprive the Tibetan people of their fundamental human rights and freedom including their rights to self-determination."

Lets put forward a referendum for the 'Chinese' people of Tibet (North and South) with some choices:

1. Want to be a part of China?
2. Want to be Independent?
3. Want to be a part of India?

If they want to be independent India can consider letting go of AP if choses to integrate with North Tibet, giving dual citizenship to it's citizens or considering it an autonomous province of Tibet if they like. With Tibet as an independent country we really don't have to worry about our borders up North. There'll be peace in the NE almost instantaneously, Nepal will calm down, Kailash and Mansarover will be again back as reverred spots for Hindu's to travel unhindered. Pakistans direct link to China broken.

Thats one way of countering Chinese pressure on AP.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 29 Sep 2009 04:08

Google toes Chinese line, shows Arunachal as disputed

Bhaskar · Post by **Bhaskar** » 29 Sep 2009 04:56

VinodTK wrote:Google toes Chinese line, shows Arunachal as disputed

Saw that since Google Earth was launched. They show Arunachal Pradesh as a disputed territory under the control of neither China nor India.
I was really shocked. Google should fix this or India should take action against Google.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 29 Sep 2009 12:41

I am actually for Chinese principle of rejoining North and South Tibet and following UN resolutions to that effect..lets integrate North and South Tibet as China wants to do for the Tibetan people, but lets follow UN regulations also:

Are you suggesting Tibetan people will have a better life in TAR as compared to AP? Or do it just because china wants? or both?

Just a note: Tibetans are now secondary citizens in their homeland, where the massive migration policy by china has led to loss of tibetans identity.

Lets put forward a referendum for the 'Chinese' people of Tibet (North and South) with some choices:

1. Want to be a part of China?
2. Want to be Independent?
3. Want to be a part of India?

What do you mean by Chinese people of Tibet? Is it the Chinese people migrated from china to Tibet.

Unfortunately, your proposal has some flaws:
1.China doesn't understands the meaning of referendum, nor does it like the word.
2.The population demography in Tibet has a large percentage of migrated Chinese.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Sep 2009 13:11

What is South Tibet?

Never heard of it.

It is figment of imagination of the imperialist Chinese mind!

I have heard of Free Tibet!

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Sep 2009 13:24

Bhaskar wrote:
VinodTK wrote:Google toes Chinese line, shows Arunachal as disputed
Saw that since Google Earth was launched. They show Arunachal Pradesh as a disputed territory under the control of neither China nor India.
I was really shocked. Google should fix this or India should take action against Google.

I found that A&N islands are listed under indonesia.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Sep 2009 17:44

Are you suggesting Tibetan people will have a better life in TAR as compared to AP? Or do it just because china wants? or both?

Can you please read again what i posted? I'll give a background to the AP problem and China's claim:

Official China says AP is a part of China because the nth Dalai Lama was born there. It says for it's Tibetan citizens it wants to integrate 'South Tibet' / Arunachal Pradesh with China. China also proposes a peaceful plebiscite in accordance to UN resolutions in Kashmir.

Meanwhile in response our Babu's dish out maps which Chinese reject haughitly. Babu's then in the next round of talks talk about demarcating sections of mountainous unpopulated areas of AP. China haughtily rejects that and encourages some aggressive patrolling on it's part. Babu's call up China top bosses and ask for calm on the border and hotlines to damage control. Is that the way or approach to take to counter Chinese claims? No.

So i suggest India also give a big smile and say we also like AP and Tibet to be integrated according to the wishes of the people of both regions. So why not follow existing UN resolutions on Tibet, like the one doled out to China in 1961 i mentioned in my last post. Tibet will vote for independence, which means India no longer has a border with China. Neither has Pakistan. India goes for a plebiscite on AP on the sole condition that China holds one in Tibet..according to UN resolutions. AP votes for India and Tibet for independence.

What do you think China will ever come to a negotiating table with AP on the agenda? Never.

Thats why i was suggesting approaching a different track that subtly brings focus back to Tibet, slackens Chinese haughtiness on AP..

What do you mean by Chinese people of Tibet? Is it the Chinese people migrated from china to Tibet.

I wrote 'chinese'. I meant the original devanagri inhabitants with indic cultural roots of Tibet. Not the Han settlers or PLA members and their families. After all isn't the 'peaceful' Chinese wish of integration "South Tibet" with the North for the betterment of these Tibetans. (Official Chinese reasons given for AP claim)

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 30 Sep 2009 01:35

Sir,
I have nothing against your proposal, but was against the way i am afraid it may be implemented by china. The issue of Han vs native Tibetans will rise for sure.

Beside, can you provide me source for this

China also proposes a peaceful plebiscite in accordance to UN resolutions in Kashmir.

In nutshell, are you suggesting an ideological offensive on china?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Sep 2009 15:13

China has actually had the audacity to offer its help to resolve the kashmir dispute! India should retort that it reciprocates China's generous gesture in offering to resolve the question of Tibet's sovereignity as well as that of Taiwan and Uigharistan!

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 30 Sep 2009 17:43

Especially when it has also gobbled a slice of J&K. Speak of audacity, China truly matches the west in forked tongue speak.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 30 Sep 2009 18:06

Read that China is about to show 52 new weapon systems on its 60th anniversary. What are those, any scoop?
Quite disturbing news it is.

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 01 Oct 2009 03:29

China's claim on Arunachal does not arise: Pranab

At least the FM is making the right noise

"We have made it clear that there is no question of surrendering our sovereign rights over Arunachal. The question does not arise. There were 11 rounds of discussions (on the boundary question) in the last six to seven years. We consistently said that we cannot accept China's claim on Arunachal," Mukherjee told a press conference here.

"Please write the name of the region carefully as Tibet Autonomous Region of Peoples Republic of China, as it has wide international connotations," Mukherjee said.

"Elections are taking place regularly in Arunachal which is sending two representatives to Lok Sabha," he noted. India has consistently maintained that Arunachal is an integral part of the country.

"India has recognised Tibet as an autonomous region of Peoples Republic of China with which trade through traditional routes stopped after the 1962 war.

He was replying to a question by a local journalist that when his forefathers traded with Tibet for centuries why was it stopped and how China could lay claim over Arunachal.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 01 Oct 2009 06:57

prad,

As a realist non-fan of PRC, would dearly like to see evidence for what you quoted:

before the house of cards comes tumbling down.

What house of cards? If it is one, then its housed in a concrete casing. Even if it falls, nobody will know and fromt he outside things will look the same as always (pretty much sums up the west after the khanomic wipeout of their banking system, infact impacting the integrity of their fiat system itself).

If such can be maintained for a while longer suckering more people in the turd world into losing their life savings, whats the harm, eh?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Oct 2009 07:33

Arunachal Pradesh, read this:

Delhi upset over separate Chinese visas for Kashmiris

Dili is only upset. : )

In a move that has puzzled and annoyed South Block, the Chinese embassy in New Delhi has begun issuing visas to Indian passport holders from Jammu and Kashmir on a separate sheet of paper rather than stamping them in their passports as is the norm with other Indian citizens.

I guess Santhanam is right. 25 Kt is of no good WRT China.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 01 Oct 2009 07:35

India politicians will make just enough noise to keep the population under wraps and get votes.

here is another gem:

Progress on talks with Kashmiri separatists: Chidambaram

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 01 Oct 2009 07:52

http://www.hindu.com/2009/10/01/stories ... 190100.htm

The more you bend down to lick, the more they kick you in the face...lesson to UPA.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Oct 2009 07:55

NRao wrote:Delhi upset over separate Chinese visas for Kashmiris

Dili is only upset.

The question is what is New Delhi going to do about this ? Will it be the usual dhimmi response ? There is no beating about the bush. China certainly does not care for a friendly relationship with India and is quite willing to trample us at every opportunity, especially after May 1998. These instances are now mounting.

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 01 Oct 2009 08:08

India is taking concrete steps to strenthen defences along LAC. These Chinese antics are their way to bully the Indian political leadership to dissuade them from beefing up the border.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Oct 2009 08:08

Who are these Kashmiri going to China anyway? And wonder if Tibet Government in Exile has any embassy in Delhi .

ShauryaT · Post by **ShauryaT** » 01 Oct 2009 08:10

harbans wrote: India no longer has a border with China. Neither has Pakistan.

harbans ji: small correction. TSP border is with Xinjinag/Sinkiang not Tibet. Actually to be precise, TSP border is with India, not with Xinjiang or PRC. India's rights over NA are sovereign.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 01 Oct 2009 08:34

NRao wrote:In a move that has puzzled and annoyed South Block, the Chinese embassy in New Delhi has begun issuing visas to Indian passport holders from Jammu and Kashmir on a separate sheet of paper rather than stamping them in their passports as is the norm with other Indian citizens.

Indian visas have a Special Endorsement field. Delhi must put that to use by endorsing visas issued on Chinese passports with legends like 'National of Tibet', 'National of East Turkestan', 'National of Manchuria'. For fun, these legends should be randomly endorsed on 10% of the visas issued on Chinese passports regardless of their place of origin. Then sit back and watch the fun as the the Chinese destroy their own passports

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 01 Oct 2009 08:41

Commie mouthpieces like the chindu and the telegraph were out in force decrying desi media overdrive on the chini border intrusion issue saying its is needlessly vitiating the atmospherics (snigger).

Good to see such propagandu organs exposed for what they are. Perhaps they spoke conciliatorily out of turn co the next PRC jhapad to indi-cheeni bhaichara cuts the propagandu to pieces.

Besides, lets see more gems trickle outta delhi. Obviously someone in Dilli (within GoI or without) wants to raise the LAC temperature and keep the PRC threat pot boiling.

I just hope that someone is on India's side.

arnab · Post by **arnab** » 01 Oct 2009 08:49

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091001/j ... 560816.jsp

New Delhi, Sept. 30: On the eve of the 60th anniversary of the People’s Republic of China, India has played with a combustible word that could ignite fireworks of a different kind in Beijing.

A monthly report card released by home minister P. Chidambaram today mentions construction “on the Indo-Tibet border”, a departure from the official “Indo-China border”.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 01 Oct 2009 09:38

Finally.

I do believe GOI has been motivated in its release of information to the press, it is not the press alone that is playing up the Chinese threat. I believe India is engaged in a sophisticated psy-ops-presenting China with two options in its relationship with India,an India that acknowledges China's head start in the economy and its numerically larger military, but being not at all subtle that India has the muscle to humiliate China in Tibet. And that it would not be wise for China to be too dismissive of India's concerns. It may also be payback time for Pakistan's nukes.

India should never mention any India-China border. It is technically and in every sense a India-Tibet border. (I have been waiting ten years for India to develop the political and military assets to back such a description).

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 01 Oct 2009 10:01

Astu! sanjay!

I too have waited long years for the correct description ogf the border as Indo-Tibet border.

Have you been to Tibet House in New Delhi? I have a prayer flag from there.

a_kumar · Post by **a_kumar** » 01 Oct 2009 10:03

Philip wrote:China has actually had the audacity to offer its help to resolve the kashmir dispute! India should retort that it reciprocates China's generous gesture in offering to resolve the question of Tibet's sovereignity as well as that of Taiwan and Uigharistan!

Not the first time btw. China has said the same before on couple of occasions. Every time tensions flared up, it was treated as an open invitation to every tom-dick-and-harry to offer "help".

Masaru · Post by **Masaru** » 01 Oct 2009 10:39

More on the separate visa issue ...
Visa standoff leaves Kashmiri students in limbo

Usual Chindu reporting, some how now Kashmiris become the aggrieved party here.

The original news is promptly off the main page which is as usual filled with celebrations of 'Chinese pride'.

At the same time, the Chinese embassy appears to be correct in noting that travellers with a stapled rather than stamped visa sheet have not been stopped in the past, though the number of such travellers — presumably all of them from Arunachal Pradesh — was itself very small. In 2007, Professor Marpe Sora from Itanagar, apparently the first Arunachali to visit China, did so with a visa that was not stamped in his passport. He was not stopped by airport authorities in India.
The issue has cropped up now, a Chinese diplomat told The Hindu, “purely because of the change of mind of your authorities. They know much better than anybody else.” (As usual the Chinese can never be wrong!)

Even before the Chinese embassy Chindu promptly issues the denials/justifications etc.
One wonders if this a CCCP propaganda piece masquerading as an Indian newspaper.

Whatever the compulsions of grand strategy and politics, however, the new visa policy has been a calamity for those Kashmiri students who were hoping to go to China for higher education, many of them on full scholarships (What is the motive for PRC to give those out to Kashmiris?). In the case of one Srinagar-based student, who sought The Hindu’s assistance in the matter after being turned back from Delhi airport twice, the Chinese university where he was to be enrolled informed him that it could no longer hold his place and that he would have to re-apply for admission again next year.

While the new visa policy has left dozens of Kashmiri students in India frustrated, there is worry about what will happen to those already pursuing their studies in Chinese universities. Though all of them are on stamped visas, many fear being given a loose visa when they return home and apply for their annual extension, thereby getting stranded mid-course.

Chindu is worried sick about the education of Kashmiris in China! That seems to be the biggest issue to the enlightened journos there.

Countries issue separate paper visas for one reason alone: so that no trace of the traveller having visited is left behind. Sometimes, as in the case of Israel, this is done to protect the traveller from being denied entry to a country which regards a prior visit to the Zionist state as a disqualification. But the absence of an official seal in a passport also helps one country with a territorial claim or dispute on another from extending legal recognition to the latter’s possession of the territory under question.

Finally we get to the core issue; so what is the message PRC sending. Just the first step in unraveling India into 20-30 pieces? First AP, then JK, next Assam, WB, TN?

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 01 Oct 2009 10:44

"Please write the name of the region carefully as Tibet Autonomous Region of Peoples Republic of China, as it has wide international connotations," Mukherjee said.

A monthly report card released by home minister P. Chidambaram today mentions construction “on the Indo-Tibet border”, a departure from the official “Indo-China border”.

Contrast these with statements from Tweet Tharoor!!

There are two GoIs I am telling you onlee..

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 01 Oct 2009 10:54

At first I was also surprised that Chindu published, that too on first page, a story that no one else seemed to have picked up, and one with potential anti-Chinese connotations. Then the truth dawned on me - it is simply to jump the gun and offer the Chinese version, suitably spun, so that when other papers inevitably report it, the official PRC word is already out...

The comparison with Israel is carefully inserted to fudge and obfuscate the issue, because countries that issue visas and stamps on paper to Isarelis do so for ALL israelis, not just those from one particular region of Israel. If PRC issues paper visas to ALL Indians, that would of course not be a big story..

As a unintended side effect, the report has brought out yet another sinister aspect - that of providing 'scholarship' to Kashmiri youth. Since the view that China is oozing with concern and affection for India's youth is somewhat hard to believe, one has to accept the other view

This daily also spent half a page of the editorial section to 'clarify' that the break India posting that appeared in some Chinese think tank webpage is just one of the millions of anonymous bloggers posting their own rants and raves and also blamed Indians for provoking them by talking about Tibet and Xinxiang!......once again, it is us Indians that are wrong...boss is ALWAYS RIGHT!

There was also free editorial space donated to the PRC ambassador to 'clarify' events in Xinxiang after the riots. Your excellency, you are wasting time because Chindu is already doing a great job mirroring your opinions and perspectives..

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 01 Oct 2009 11:07

On the main issue of what the PRC is upto, I think you have to look at Mahabaratha for example...when Krishna took up arms, angry with Arjuna for not fighting hard enough...the faithful army of mass murderers and intellectual puppets have failed badly, in terms of sabotaging the nuclear deal, sabotaging reforms and also in terms failing of holding MMS by his b..s and squeezing it hard whenever orders were issued to do so. Heck, they could not even allot a few hundred acres of land to a well connected moneybag...despite so many rapes and murders.

Now the lord is taking up 'arms' to show if Plan A fails, Plan B will be activated. MMS / GOI / Indians have to just stay the course, stay calm and just do the right thing which is to strengthen our own position and send clear message that while we seek friendship, such behaviour will come with clear and severe long term costs. Two can play this game.

Hari Seldon · Post by **Hari Seldon** » 01 Oct 2009 12:21

Good post, Suppiah garu,

Something tells me PRC is capable of much more mischief than what we have seen or thought of so far.

The parallel to the Lord taking up arms is when the PLA crosses borders to occupy and not to tease. Several levels of escalation to go before that happens.

For example, PRC could instigate a JDAm going off in yindia and then an indo-pak nuke match in which there will be winners amongst the players, only among the game organizers.

Heck, if jdam doesn't work, whats to stop prc smuggling dirty bums to its maorderer chums in chattisgarh and jharkhand?

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 01 Oct 2009 13:54

The issue is also to know or figure out what is it that PRC wants. This has been a challenge to practically everyone dealing with her. On top of the the traditional Confuse-ian straight face and stiff upper lip and backroom maneuvers, we also have to deal with commie art of lying through the teeth, subterfuge, FUD etc.

IMHO what they want is to for us to accept and declare openly, initially as Asian Superpolice and eventually as global super police, to whom we should pay tribute and check before taking any critical decision, that involves a third country. In other words, join their orbit and none else. I dont think in the final analysis they care a damn about Aksai Chin or Arunachal, these are just bargaining chips. Obviously they care even less about whether we are capitalist or communist since they seem to care a damn for that themselves...but communism is useful to keep Indian economy moribund and stuck in 50s which is why their mass murderer puppets in India dont allow us to do what PRC is doing.

This is exactly a goal we cannot agree with for moral, cultural, strategic and various other reasons.

Question then becomes what is their next best acceptable position, and more importantly how far they will go to enforce their ideal option. There are as many possibilities as there are in a chess game.

It is going to be a challenge, but so was getting rid of British..we are capable of this too.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Oct 2009 15:30

The PRC,"Psycho Republic of China" could not even tolerate its own people watching the parade,closed windows overlooking streets,banned overnight stays in Beijing,banned any visitors to Tibet and Xinjiang,etc.etc.! This only indicates that the PRC is consumed by acute paranoia,inferiority and insecurity.Their uniformed buffoons goosestepping in the lakhs, provide much merriment to an observer.With such tightly controlled behaviour,Chinese troops will have to get approval from Beijing before they can answer nature's call in the high Himalayas!

JwalaMukhi · Post by **JwalaMukhi** » 01 Oct 2009 16:00

Question then becomes what is their next best acceptable position, and more importantly how far they will go to enforce their ideal option. There are as many possibilities as there are in a chess game.

It is going to be a challenge, but so was getting rid of British..we are capable of this too.

How true! Good read on the situation. The whole gamut of options in the chess game is not being explored by India, although I am sure India is aware of them. The game is conducted based on the basic premise, that India is a clean player and doesn't and will not indulge in dirty tricks. Who is to say, that this will continue for a long time, the coming generations are already as globalized as they can be, and there is no guarantee that these generations will play Mr.Nice for too long and not match the level of dirtyness dished out.
The only constraint, is India is currently desisting from stooping low to the level of others with the similar tactics that the enemies employ. Once, the rules of engagement is changed to reciprocate; then the possibilities in chess game will be very clear to all.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Oct 2009 16:29

Indian concerns on visas conveyed to China

"It is our considered view and position that there should be no discrimination against visa applicants of Indian nationality on grounds of domicile or ethnicity," external affairs ministry spokesperson Vishnu Prakash said here.

"We have conveyed our well-justified concern to the Chinese government in this regard," he said.

I don't like terms like 'considered view', and 'well justified concerns' etc. That is a very defensive usage of English. The reaction should be stronger than that even if if it need not be offensive. Simply say, "There cannot be any discrmination . . ." and "We have conveyed our concerns . . ."

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 01 Oct 2009 16:45

JwalaMukhi wrote: The game is conducted based on the basic premise, that India is a clean player and doesn't and will not indulge in dirty tricks. Who is to say, that this will continue for a long time, the coming generations are already as globalized as they can be, and there is no guarantee that these generations will play Mr.Nice for too long and not match the level of dirtyness dished out.
The only constraint, is India is currently desisting from stooping low to the level of others with the similar tactics that the enemies employ. Once, the rules of engagement is changed to reciprocate; then the possibilities in chess game will be very clear to all.

JwalaMukhi,I perfectly understand where you come from. We played Mr. Nice in 1947 & 1948 (if not earlier) and are still experiencing the severe effects of that. In fact, the situation is only worsening day-by-day and for all intents and purposes, we even appear helpless and clueless. Our top-most leaders have mostly carried their good personal traits into practice of statecraft, much to our grief, while leaders at rungs below the top-most have also carried their criminal traits into governance and caused general populace other types of grief. We cannot forever be hoping for a day in the future when India will change its rules of engagement, as you put it, because any concession or quarters given now will haunt us badly even when the 'globalized generations' assume power later on. Pakistan and Kashmir are the lessons for us.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 01 Oct 2009 22:08

Hey,
PRC cannot be superpower and play its proper status at world stage unless it peacefully settles all issues with India, Taiwan and Tibbet.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 01 Oct 2009 23:47

From these silly tit for tats from Cheen, it is clear that even a 1-Mt bum in the arsenal is not going to make them behave well. It is a way of life for not just the PRC, but a lot of its fellow citizens too. Exceptions are there of course, but marching to one's own drum beat is not an indic trait, unfortunately. We just need to do more of that.