Indian Army: News & Discussion

[ASPuar]

Pmund while this is not the right thread anecdotal references do not count for instance I have heard quite a few ex service personnel or even those in service say " services are not what they used to be they don't attract as many good men as in my days " sounds like more of a rant to me but the point is every system can be gamed and bad apples exist everywhere and SSB is no exception to that , the major issue is SSB process as such is completely opaque when it comes to an appraisal of a candidate and at least this in this aspect it has remained unchanged since its inception during the British Raj , most of the grievances can be traced back to this aspect alone .

As far as attracting good/quality men is concerned again I don't believe it , if services cannot find enough good men from a pool of second largest population in the world (may be largest in terms of % of young men in age group 15-25yrs) and despite offering a pretty decent package as remuneration then there is something seriously wrong with their approach towards selecting candidates .Again to clarify imho it is more to do with the lengthy and otherwise dated process involving inviting applications, conducting exams , SSB interview and finally preparing the merit list and sending communication to the candidates .
If services and UPSC can revisit above aspects alone I am sure they would improve their chances of attracting many more candidates .

Shabash. Anecdotal evidence doesnt count. But your opinions and arguments (based by your own admission on surmise) do.

Negi, its not the "fairly decent package" that counts. Its the package vis a vis their peers in government. When you compare the armed forces standing in government, you will realise why people dont want to be shot at and killed, just to be told after 20 years of service, that theyre junior to a district magistrate with 5 years service.

[pmund]

Well, these aren't 'anecdotes'. I was there. But let that be. I take your point about serving and retired officers ruing that the best ones aren't coming to the forces any longer. I agree, to an extent. They aren't and then they are. They aren't because of issues like pay, perks, lifestyle and largely because they are not given their due. A bright young Lieutenant, who makes it to the army after an entry exam more rigorous than any in the world and a training regimen that is among the toughest, gets peanuts when compared with someone of his age who does an MBA. Worse still, the difference gets worse as he gets older. At age 40, he ends up thinking that he has wasted his life. The IAS lobby will keep the army under its thumb. Talk to some young officers and hear their anger. Talk to some older officers and hear their pain. But don't blame the SSB system for a malaise that has its origins elsewhere. I am all for updating the SSB but let's not forget that it has served us well for decades giving us the best of men through the worst of times.
There is a problem in making SSB transparent. Anyone who has been to an SSB will tell you that much of it is based on INSTINCTIVE responses, just as you would be called to do in a battlefield. Otherwise candidates will come 'prepped' for the Visual Thematic Tests, word association tests command tasks and the like. Many still do, but the instinctive nature of the SSB evens out the playing field.
By the way, there are quite a few who chucked IITs to join NDA.

[AdityaM]

Anyway, I was responding to Brando's post, not to you. Im just saying that a (very) large number of people applying are not up to the mark. If you disagree, fine. Its frankly no skin off my back. Its just my opinion.

I went for SSB to b'lore in '98. All was going well, till the Maj/Lt Gen taking the 1 on 1 interview asked me about my specs & said i was beyond the allowed eyepower limit.
All dreams since childhood crashed that very moment... & i did not even bother putting up my case strongly, feeling miserable at the turn of events.
But i did observe that amongst the people who got selected, a majority were misfits for an army life.
Soldiers kids were given unfair advantage (there was this 1 chap who was almost a psychological wreck coz he had failed once earlier & was desperate. i wonder what kind of a leader he would have become. nice chap but not officer like)
There was another who flunked the 12th board, had personality clash with everyone else. He was even caught by us guys masturbating under the blanket. Wouldn't be surprised if he has already been thrown out of the army.

And then there was Chaudhary Devilals (former deputy PM) grandson.
A true dimwitted Jat.
During the extempore tasks, the topic he chose was "Calamities"
He started like this:
" India has 4 Calamities. (!?!) Summer, winter, err..errr.... long pause....even longer pause"
His misery was cut short by the timer.
I remember i had chosen to speak on the 'North-South divide'

I returned back, feeling angry at the poor quality of people accepted by the SSB. Something was definitely not correct about the whole affair. Especially in spite of having all sorts psych-analysis battery tests & panels.
While they lasted, They were the 3-4 most enjoyable days of my life.

In agreement with ASPaur, a large number of people who were there then, were not up to the mark. But those who got selected were not the best of the lot either!

[negi]

Well, these aren't 'anecdotes'. I was there. But let that be.

Yes so was the case with me and many others , and hence this exchange of anecdotal examples is not meaningful or desirable in an open forum.
It usually leads to skullduggery .

They aren't because of issues like pay, perks, lifestyle and largely because they are not given their due. A bright young Lieutenant, who makes it to the army after an entry exam more rigorous than any in the world and a training regimen that is among the toughest, gets peanuts when compared with someone of his age who does an MBA.

Have discussed this long before on this very forum , however to re-iterate:

1. It is simply foolhardy and Jingoistic to expect a non commercial institute to pay its men a salary on par with a few in private sector (I say few because not all MBAs draw much more than a Lieutenant , and for the average joe difference is not worth even mentioning here) even the otherwise gung ho Unkil is unable to maintain parity between the salaries of service personnel get vis a vis the private sector and I am not including the I bankers or wall street types here.

One will have to reconcile oneself to the above fact specially when GOI will have similar requests for parity from other PSUs or institutes under the central government .

Worse still, the difference gets worse as he gets older. At age 40, he ends up thinking that he has wasted his life. The IAS lobby will keep the army under its thumb. Talk to some young officers and hear their anger. Talk to some older officers and hear their pain.

This is a completely different issue something that is between the services and babudom , a 17 year old applying to the armed forces is completely oblivious to such politics .

But don't blame the SSB system for a malaise that has its origins elsewhere. I am all for updating the SSB but let's not forget that it has served us well for decades giving us the best of men through the worst of times.

Well one can't argue both ways , the fact is armed forces are facing a resource crunch for quite some time now and this despite having a substantial % of men enlisted under permanent commission (15 years for non commissioned and 20 for commissioned) , I am not blaming the SSB system in particular I am merely pointing out the fact that whatever grievances one hears about the selection process can be traced back to the fact that it is OPAQUE .

There is a problem in making SSB transparent. Anyone who has been to an SSB will tell you that much of it is based on INSTINCTIVE responses, just as you would be called to do in a battlefield. Otherwise candidates will come 'prepped' for the Visual Thematic Tests, word association tests command tasks and the like. Many still do, but the instinctive nature of the SSB evens out the playing field.
By the way, there are quite a few who chucked IITs to join NDA.

Nah if someone is trying to tell me that a process made during the British times is perfect and that there exists no other way to gauge the said OLQs then I simply don't buy it . As for preparation for SSB most of the one's who come from the defense background specially whose kith/Kin hold high positions are already aware of the details of the interview process and the obstacle courses .
And what exactly is the point you wish to make about folks who chucked IIT ? Those gents would have applied and joined SSB or no SSB .

[jai]

The issue is the "climate" and "role" now v/s what it used to be 50 years back....speak to (I have) a large number of people "inside" as well as those who got out ...all point it to climate and leadership at mid/senior levels.

The promotion methodology, the whole "ACR" system is leading to a lot of behaviour that is certainly not what you would expect from leaders. Even if you are right, disagreeing once with the boss -(CO) can get your career side tracked at best, or court marshalled at worst..corruption at verious levels is very real, and fighting it or not being a part of it a very real dilema for many of the younger officers.

Our services may be still far better comparatively ...but the level of decline is far too obvious. Just look at the sheer rise in number of services related legal cases, leading to establishment of Armed Forces Tribunal..its a big indicator.

The other point is that few cases of irregularity come out in the open, most are burried deep under "OSA"...the media has only now gotten slightly active but only just...

Complete political and common man's apathy towards the services does the rest....one hopes one does not ever get to see desperate officers and men returning their medals to the president ever again, would any of them ask anyone they know to join services ? In this country, where is the public and political respect that a soldier deserves ? How many service officers and men's children join services these days, how many "parental claims" do you really see?

Please don't get me wrong, I am not into services bashing and am one of the biggest fans and supporters of Indian Armed Forces, just like to point out the "ills" that the forces need to iradicate to get back to its formal glory.

[Shubham]

I just had an experience of SSB very recently and some point I would add to the discussions are :-
Usually one GTO is tasked with evaluating a group of around 8 people and there are a total of 10 group activities which each person undertake. So you have ample opportunity to showcase what you are. The point here is to show to the GTO, nobody cares if you have it or not if you can show the required qualities.
If I have served into the services for several years, I will know what qualities it takes to become a good officer, and more over, among the officers applying for Selection Boards, only a small fraction of them clear the program and join the various selection boards, so I have my faith in the system.

The tests like OIR(officer intelligence rating) is 4 decades old , but the psychologist I believe are very good, in our case out of the two psychologists on the Board, one was a very senior (IIRC Scientist E grade) so the psych department should be on a solid groundings.

The problem as well as the whole idea of SSB is that its not a rote test, so nobody really tells you the parameters of evaluation of candidates, there are so many coaching centres already open, if these things were just known , then a coached crop will be going to the academies. I have seen people coming to 12th attempt of SSB and still not being sure of what exactly are the things to make you get through.

The evaluation parameters keep on being updated with time and Selection Board try to keep up with the changing society.

Just to put some facts around more than half of the people reporting are screened out on the very first day. This itself tells a tale that why cannot the Recommendation Ratio be high.

[Shubham]

There is a problem in making SSB transparent. Anyone who has been to an SSB will tell you that much of it is based on INSTINCTIVE responses, just as you would be called to do in a battlefield. Otherwise candidates will come 'prepped' for the Visual Thematic Tests, word association tests command tasks and the like. Many still do, but the instinctive nature of the SSB evens out the playing field.
Nah if someone is trying to tell me that a process made during the British times is perfect and that there exists no other way to gauge the said OLQs then I simply don't buy it . As for preparation for SSB most of the one's who come from the defense background specially whose kith/Kin hold high positions are already aware of the details of the interview process and the obstacle courses .

Well if you are from defence background, you could really mug up all the solutions of Obstacles and the SSB Process etc, but what a person cannot anticipate is his group, you cannot just bring that artificially , if you don't have those proper group dynamics qualities in you. And this is what is exactly tested in Group Tasks.

[Craig Alpert]

INDIAN ARMY 2.0 (16 classified projects - DECLASSIFIED!)

[VinodTK]

Indian, US armies to further enhance joint combat exercises

NEW DELHI: Even as India and US are gearing up to hold another joint combat exercise called `Shatrujeet' in California next month, the two armies on Monday kicked off a four-day Executive Steering Group (ESG) meeting to chalk out the schedule for bilateral military
engagements over the next year.

[Sachin]

The GoI knows it the, the Army too knows it - "we are not getting enough officer candidates". As many people pointed out, paying hefty salaries to people who join the Army is not going to work out, because other agencies/departments would not take it lightly. Also people mention here, that there are large number of people who appear for SSB but gets chucked out due to not having "Officer like qualities". OLQ many people say is not well defined, and hence opaque.

If I am not mistaken we are never short of people to join the enlisted ranks. Stampedes occur in recruitment rallies. If this officer shortage continues, how about the Army and GoI design a system which would make officers out of the people who are already in the army (as enlisted ranks)? Off course, there would be points like lack of education, coming from a different strata of society etc. But then we need to start a change some where.

Just my two paise...

[anirban_aim]

If this officer shortage continues, how about the Army and GoI design a system which would make officers out of the people who are already in the army (as enlisted ranks)?
Just my two paise...

A process already exists for this. I personally know a person who was utilized this oppurtunity well and is now doing good for himself. But the nos have remained low over the years.

Serving people and Gyaanis might shed more light.

[Sachin]

A process already exists for this. I personally know a person who was utilized this oppurtunity well and is now doing good for himself. But the nos have remained low over the years.

Yes there are schemes for enlisted men to get commissioned. But considering the vacancies, as you rightly said I dont think many enlisted men are joining the officer corps through these schemes. One more point I wish to add is that, if a large number of candidates gets chucked out because they do not possess "officer like qualities" then increasing the pay-scale (to attract more talent) is not going to do any good. Chances of tampering the results, and the recruitment process would be extremely high. People in the "know" could ensure that their favourites gets commissioned, while the others can be chucked out stating they dont have "officer like qualities".

[chetak]

If this officer shortage continues, how about the Army and GoI design a system which would make officers out of the people who are already in the army (as enlisted ranks)? Off course, there would be points like lack of education, coming from a different strata of society etc. But then we need to start a change some where.

Just my two paise...

The aim of the SSB is filtration.

The probable candidates are put through tests to see if they make it through a fairly tight " band pass filter " in a psychological way.
The physical standards are relatively easy to find and not so important as the psychological ones.

The Services are not looking for very highly intelligent or really dumb guys. An average guy is actually pretty good when given the chance to bloom and grow, one who is balanced but aggressive when occasion demands. A guy who can single handedly charge a tank when instinct tells him to run the other way ( and not delegate such a task ) but also a guy who values lives the of his mates more than his own in tough situations.

A guy like Major Sandeep, if you want an example. His men would have willingly died for him as they full well knew that he would die for them.

The Services are looking for guys who can be trained and molded easily to suit specific requirements.

Highly strung guys are psychologically edgy and can cause all sorts of problems.

Regarding promotion from lower ranks, not many such candidates can actually cut the mustard at the SSBs again and fail because they are unsuitable. Just being in the service in the lower rank does not equip someone for automatic up gradation the officer status.

OLQ is over rated and widely misunderstood. It is the mindset that makes you an officer. It's ones mind that gets one the respect and motivates others to follow where one leads.

Over the years one has seen and heard enough and more disaster stories that make people very cautious and careful in following this particular upgrade process to officer status.

[ASPuar]

A process already exists for this. I personally know a person who was utilized this oppurtunity well and is now doing good for himself. But the nos have remained low over the years.

Serving people and Gyaanis might shed more light.

There are several different schemes for Enlisted to Officer promotion.

The most mainstream one (as in, the one that allows the candidate to join the main executive cadres of the Indian Army), is the Army Cadet College Commissioning Scheme.

The candidates are selected from the ranks, through a process of reccomendation, and examination, and are sent for SSB. Upon clearing SSB, they report to the Army Cadet College, a 3 year degree granting institution, affiliated to JNU Delhi, in the same manner as NDA Khadakvasala.

Here, they complete either a BSc, or a BA, depending on their entry type. Once they have completed their degree studies, they are sent to IMA dehradun, for the commissioning course.
After this, they are posted to their regiments, or, in the case of technical entry cadres, they are sent to MCE/MCEME/MCETE for BTECH studies.

The ACC entry is open to jawans from all three services, and essentially, it is like an In-service NDA. IMO the best scheme, in terms of the awesome educational opportunities it offers the Jawans, and a chance to really move up in life.

As an example, see this real CV of a beneficiary of the education that the ACC offers (its up on a jobsite, and is anonymous, so I think its ok to post it):

http://www.3gwirelessjobs.com/resume/printpreview/17424

EDUCATION
M.Tech. (Microwave Engineering) from I.I.T, Kharagpur in 1991.
B.Tech. (Electronics & Telecommunication Engineering) from J.N.U, New Delhi in 1987.
B.Sc. from J.N.U, New Delhi in 1980.


CAREER PATH
Apr00 - Dec00 Communication Advisor, Ministry of Defence, Govt. of Ethiopia
Jun98 - Mar00 Joint Director, Telecommunication Regiment, Indian Army
Jan96 - May98 Senior Faculty & Head of Department, Media and Systems Engineering
Military College of Telecommunication Engineering, MHOW, India
Sep93 - Dec95 Senior Manager (Radio Relay Communication), Indian Army
Jan91 - Aug93 Manager, Microwave Communication, Indian Army
Aug89 - Dec90 M. Tech. at IIT, Kharagpur
Nov87 - Jul89 Officer In-charge Training, Signal Training Centre, Indian Army
Dec84 - Oct87 B. Tech. at Military College of Telecommunication Engineering, MHOW
Jun81 - Nov84 Manager, Communication Centre, Indian Army
Aug77 - May81 Commissioning Training Army Cadet College and Indian Military Academy Dehradun
Aug73 - Jul77 Maintenance Engineer (Radar/Navigational Installation), IAF

Note that he served as an enlisted man in the IAF before degree and commissioning training through ACC. The MCETE is also affiliated to JNU, so thats why his BTECH is listed as being from there. And note, that he took his MTECH from IIT KGP!

Now thats mobility across the spectrum! Hands down the best enlisted to officer scheme in the country, IMO.

[pgbhat]

And then there was Chaudhary Devilals (former deputy PM) grandson.
A true dimwitted Jat.
During the extempore tasks, the topic he chose was "Calamities"
He started like this:
" India has 4 Calamities. (!?!) Summer, winter, err..errr.... long pause....even longer pause"
His misery was cut short by the timer.

Spilled water over my office keyboard.

[Ankit Desai]

Army to boost North Bengal infrastructure

"The Army has thus decided to overhaul the road link. Jalpaiguri and Darjeeling districts are strategically very important for the Army,"

said a senior state government official.

Apart from developing the road links, the Army is also planning an air base at Bagrakote in Odlabari, spread over 400 acres. The new air base has been named Shaugaon Air Base. The Army has urged the Jalpaiguri administration to acquire about 300 acres. The remaining 100 acres is lying with the Army.

Ankit

[VinodTK]

Singapore brings high-tech mechanised forces to India for wargames

The three-phase training exercises will culminate in the joint `Bold Kurukshetra' wargames with Indian mechanised forces towards the end of this month to `boost interoperability' between the two armies, said defence ministry officials on Tuesday.

[CalvinH]

ASPuar ji IMO the applicant pool for IA and other govt services like IAS/IPS is very different and the pay scale and services alignment with IAS/IPS is not an issue at all which is restricting quality of applicants in IA. As someone said its about the options that are now available in general and the benefits these options have vis a vis IA. This is more true as the education level goes higher like BTech and MTech. The applicant pool is getting restricted to people who dont have these options either due to lack of exposure or due to lack of money. Aspirants from middle size and small town constitute bulk of people opting for IA now whereas participation from middle/upper middle class from major cities is decreasing.

SSB is fair system given the large no of people who still turn up for the 4-5 days testing. I have been to SSB in allahbad during my BTech (UES entry) and was successful. The lack of understanding about the OLQs, wrong impression about the what is actually being looked for is the major cause why some people who could have othewise become fine officer are not able to make it. The IO and GTO are not God and they can make mistakes given the large no of people or given the restricted interaction one may have with them (where one may not be able to give his best) but overall the independent evaluation by three people give one an ample chance to prove onself even if he/she falters with one of them. The most damaging factor for applicants (at least from the small town) is exposure to army area and surroundings where it takes them some time to adjust. This affects their confidence which alas is one of the major quality being looked at. For wards of army officers this is not an issue and hence the success rate is high

AdityaM ji, The IO cannot be at a level of Maj/Lt Gen. Not in 1998. The head of whole SSB station like Allahbad would be of that rank. IO would be Col or max brig in rank. For tech entry at least the eyesight limit is very relaxed and last time I heard anything that can be corrected is Ok.

[Hari Seldon]

Ajai Shukla: India's war memorial - Seal the deal

Amongst the many issues that scar relations between India’s military and its civilian overseers — pay scales and pensions; the failure to buy adequate weaponry; and the military’s marginalisation in framing security policy, to name a few — the most easily resolved is the military’s longstanding demand for a national war memorial to honour the 20,000 soldiers, sailors and airmen who have sacrificed their lives while defending independent India. A broad section of the urban public echoes this plea.

The irony is evident: the British exalted the memory of Indians who died for the empire; but India finds it bothersome to suitably commemorate those who fell in service of the republic.

Anyone who has travelled along India’s borders with China and Pakistan cannot have missed the lonely memorials at the places where Indian troops fought and died. Amongst the most stirring is the stark monument to Major Shaitan Singh and his 111 Kumaoni soldiers who battled to the last, holding up a major Chinese advance on the desolate, windswept plateau of Chushul. This Indian hero, a winner of the Param Vir Chakra, is honoured only in that unvisited war memorial near Chushul. No national memorial is inscribed with the name of Major Shaitan Singh.

Today, with the government unwilling to concede the space for a memorial on New Delhi’s Central Vista, Karnataka MP Rajeev Chandrasekhar, has suggested a Vietnam Wall-style memorial, inscribed with the names of India’s fallen soldiers, on a 50-60 acre site alongside Mahatma Gandhi’s memorial at Rajghat. The design, which Chandrasekhar submitted to the prime minister last week, includes an eternal flame, a 24x7 ceremonial military guard, a memorial wall, a martyrs’ museum, and large, landscaped areas that would allow schoolchildren and other visitors a pleasant day at the memorial. If the army wants the country to know about and to remember its sacrifices, this is the way to do it.

[ASPuar]

ASPuar ji IMO the applicant pool for IA and other govt services like IAS/IPS is very different and the pay scale and services alignment with IAS/IPS is not an issue at all which is restricting quality of applicants in IA. As someone said its about the options that are now available in general and the benefits these options have vis a vis IA. This is more true as the education level goes higher like BTech and MTech. The applicant pool is getting restricted to people who dont have these options either due to lack of exposure or due to lack of money. Aspirants from middle size and small town constitute bulk of people opting for IA now whereas participation from middle/upper middle class from major cities is decreasing.

Disagree in entirety. Government services are squiffy about parity. When one falls in parity, and a Colonel finds himself being told by a DM with 5 years service that he is senior to him, it hurts. And his kids and everyone else knows it.

Nowadays SSB Center East is commanded by a MajGen btw. But IO is a brig.

[somnath]

Disagree in entirety. Government services are squiffy about parity. When one falls in parity, and a Colonel finds himself being told by a DM with 5 years service that he is senior to him, it hurts. And his kids and everyone else knows it.

Nowadays SSB Center East is commanded by a MajGen btw. But IO is a brig.

This protocol order of precedence is the biggest red herring quoted as a reason for officer shortage...The pecking order question disturbs a tiny microscopic minority of serving and retired officers (many dont care at all)...A young chap looking out for a career option does not have a govt of India protocol precedence list in his hand while he makes his choices..

And even there, lets check where services officers stand in the protocol list in India and US..

India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_order_of_precedence

US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... precedence

Forget the chronology, the Chairman, Joint Chiefs (a position that does not exist in India barrign in a ceremonial capacity) is below that of Undersecretaries (roughly equivalent to a Secretary in the Indian civil service)..Individual service chiefs and theatre commanders (the real military "power" in the US rests with the theatre commanders, who for most parts efffectively report to the President) are even lower..

In India, all generals are pecked just below Ministers of State and above pretty much any bureaucrat (barrign cabinet secretary) and above hosts of State Ministers, Speakers etc..Army commanders, crude, but not real equivalent of theatre commanders in the US are pegged with Chief Secretaries in State government, and ALL Lt Gens are pegged above the highest positions a police officer can attain in India (head sof IB, RAW, BSF etc)..

Protocol pecking order has got nothing to do with effective functioning or criticality of the position/person..In the US, the Chairman of the Fed Reserve is pegged below Undersecretaries..In India, the RBI guv is a cabinet minister level position...Does it mean that somehow Ben Bernanke should feel comparatively "inferior" to Subbarao-garu in his system???

the number of situations where such protocols become pertinent are small and largely ceremonial...

Raking this up as the ciritical issue behind officer shortage is precisely the sort of bunkum that distorts sensible analysis..

[prahaar]

Disagree in entirety. Government services are squiffy about parity. When one falls in parity, and a Colonel finds himself being told by a DM with 5 years service that he is senior to him, it hurts. And his kids and everyone else knows it.

Nowadays SSB Center East is commanded by a MajGen btw. But IO is a brig.

And even there, lets check where services officers stand in the protocol list in India and US..

India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_order_of_precedence

US
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... precedence

Forget the chronology, the Chairman, Joint Chiefs (a position that does not exist in India barrign in a ceremonial capacity) is below that of Undersecretaries (roughly equivalent to a Secretary in the Indian civil service)..Individual service chiefs and theatre commanders (the real military "power" in the US rests with the theatre commanders, who for most parts efffectively report to the President) are even lower..

Raking this up as the ciritical issue behind officer shortage is precisely the sort of bunkum that distorts sensible analysis..

Somnath, you are quoting out of context. Order of precedence in US has no relevance to what is right in India. Legal drinking age is 21 in US it is different than in India! Since you claim to have management background you might be aware that most MNCs decide on pay packages based on Country specific remuneration criteria. A good salary in India might not be good in Norway. Satisfaction levels of serving and retired officers is a key determinant in future recruitment. If the order of precedence is CHANGING in a particular country and it affects the morale adversely it is bound to have an effect on recruitment. The disgruntled officers are not going to refer US pay commission reports!

[somnath]

^^^Prahaar, first up, my background has got nothing to do with opinions and facts, unless I am claiming an "expertise quotient" on a point (which I am not here)..

Second, the point on comparison was to show that contrary to what is being touted (ie, the "relative" status of the serviceman is somehow lower in protocol terms in India), the evidence does not support that...

The main point however is that protocol parity is hardly a reason for most people to choose careers..And protocol parity does not have anything to do with the relative importance of a position and therefore the influence of the person in policy-making..The example of the Fed Reserve Chairman in the US for example - he is ranked below that of Undersecretaries..Does it mean Ben Bernanke is less influential than the Undersecretary of State (say) in charge of Latin AMerica?? Similarly, just because the Commissioner for the SC/ST commission is higher in the protocol to Director IB, will an IPS officer, given a choice choose to be deputed to the former in preference to the latter?

Therefore, to conclude, as a very microscopic minority of ex-servicemen are doing (along with soem people on BRF) that rank-parity is the cause of officer shortage (or even a big cause) is simply skirting the real issues..

[pmund]

Dear Dear Negi... I don't get your point.
1. Do you mean to say that a lieutenant should NEVER expect the kind of pay that a young MBA gets because it is a non-profit organisation?? Because soldiers do not meet sales figures and give high-sounding powerpoint presentations? Just for argument's sake why can't the government give enough money to soldiers to retain talent?? There is a huge backlog of officers' applications seeking permission to quit the forces, including high-merit types. All of them are below the rank of major. And all of them are unhappy with pay.
2. Don't tell me that 17-year-olds joining NDA have no idea about politics. They do. Very well. They are great 'chakbazs' And what about the 24-year-olds joining IMA or OTA? They join the forces for the passion, all right, but are acutely aware of the ground realities.
3. The SSB selection process has to be opaque. You can't have people mugging up answers to pass it. Do you want the IAS babu types in the forces as well? It's silly to think that someone can 'mug up' all the obstacle courses and ground tasks. Do you know that every SSB centre has several dozen ground task set-ups that are changed frequently and no one task is similar to anything in any other centre? I have never said that SSB cannot be made better. But you have to admit is is fair, and it has served us well, precisely because it is based on testing a candidate by instinct. If you have been to an SSB, i am sure you would have realised that,.
5. And what do you mean by saying that IIT 'gents' would only have to apply to join the forces, 'SSB or no SSB'? Frankly, it's hilarious.
4. FInally, you have not said if u passed SSB...

[prahaar]

^^^Prahaar, first up, my background has got nothing to do with opinions and facts, unless I am claiming an "expertise quotient" on a point (which I am not here)..

Second, the point on comparison was to show that contrary to what is being touted (ie, the "relative" status of the serviceman is somehow lower in protocol terms in India), the evidence does not support that...

The main point however is that protocol parity is hardly a reason for most people to choose careers..And protocol parity does not have anything to do with the relative importance of a position and therefore the influence of the person in policy-making..The example of the Fed Reserve Chairman in the US for example - he is ranked below that of Undersecretaries..Does it mean Ben Bernanke is less influential than the Undersecretary of State (say) in charge of Latin AMerica?? Similarly, just because the Commissioner for the SC/ST commission is higher in the protocol to Director IB, will an IPS officer, given a choice choose to be deputed to the former in preference to the latter?

Therefore, to conclude, as a very microscopic minority of ex-servicemen are doing (along with soem people on BRF) that rank-parity is the cause of officer shortage (or even a big cause) is simply skirting the real issues..

Somnath, I did not mean to put you in a spot for your qualifications. Sorry if it came out that way. Regarding the rest of your response, you have not addressed the single issue that was raised by me about significance of precedence/parity/etc in USA having any significance to the situation in India. Just to clarify my position, I think it is not only irrelevant but can also be counter-productive. The demands made of an IA officer are not on the same lines as that of a US army officer. An IA officer has to live/work/die in Indian conditions. The comparative pay/precedence/parity discussion between different counties might make sense to analyse cost/benefit of hiring people in different markets but for IA, India is the only location of interest.

[somnath]

^^^Prahaar ji, everyone working in India, from the chapraasi to the marginal farmer to the BPO emplyee to the Army officer has Indian conditions to deal with...Are you saying that in terms of "precedence order" of effort/difficulty/misery, the relative order between the serviceman and policeman and babu in India is somehow "worse" (in favour of the services) than in the US?? How do you calculate such relative "harshness" of professions?

The primary point being that the protocol order of the military in India is no different, broadly speaking, of most democracies, at least advanced ones...

That said, the whole concept of a protocol pecking order is so archaic that its divorced from the criticality/glamour/importance of a job - I gave the example of the Dirctor IB as an instance above..therefore, to argue that somehow this is the reason for officer shortage is inventing red herrings...thats the limited point..

[atreya]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 716695.cms

has even stationed some of its military equipment and small personnel detachments in India on a permanent basis.

Can I get any details of this?

[sum]

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 716695.cms

has even stationed some of its military equipment and small personnel detachments in India on a permanent basis.

Can I get any details of this?

Very old news..

Kalaikunda AFB hosts a lot of Singapore F-16s on a permanent basis ( can imagine why the IAF will e so keen on a close up of the F-16s ) and quite a significant amount of Singapore armour has been based in Indian heartland ( Mhow etc).

This is because of the space constraint in their home country and keeping them here helps them hone their skills with a "active" army.

[prahaar]

Are you saying that in terms of "precedence order" of effort/difficulty/misery, the relative order between the serviceman and policeman and babu in India is somehow "worse" (in favour of the services) than in the US?? How do you calculate such relative "harshness" of professions?

The primary point being that the protocol order of the military in India is no different, broadly speaking, of most democracies, at least advanced ones...

All I am saying is comparing India with other "democracies" is wrong, especially when it comes to remuneration (both monetary and non-monetary) and working conditions. When conditions in India do not match "advanced democracies", it is superficial to compare just one aspect with them without taking into account the other aspects. It is "ok" to consider some parameters in "advanced democracies" as desirable or a good goal for India to achieve (ex. we should work towards gaining higher literacy levels, reduce infant mortality, eradicate starvation, etc) but to expect that employee satisfaction parameters to be comparable is incorrect.

Now regarding the part about what is the fraction of officer shortfall due to parity/protocol/etc considerations, your guess is as good as mine, since I have not seen any numbers in open source literature that have dealt with this. If you are aware of any pointer please provide it so that I will learn something new.

[anirban_aim]

[quote="ASPuar
Disagree in entirety. Government services are squiffy about parity.[/quote]

The debate and complaints of the forces on issues like parity, degradation of rank equivalents and OROP are well known and documented.

Can we look at a fresh approach in trying to address the issues.

First the assumptions:

(Mine and Mine only. Disclaimer - I have never worked in the Govt. in any position whatsoever, so if it appears to you that these are far fetched, my apologies)

1. India has a permanent bureaucracy. The Babus have and will continue to have a strangle hold on policy and initiatives.

2. To expect that the babudom will wake up and address the issues is futile, as they are detrimental to their intrests. (When I say Babu, I include certain sometimes uniformed but civillian services like IPS, IRS etc)

Some Suggestions:

1. Though it might sound outlandish I suggest that the Army proposes a new Rank Insignia for itself. The common rank insignia for police and Army is a british legacy. This system has been abused and mutilated by the Babudom to adorn themselves so that a Col is put to shame in front of an IPS with far less years of exp. I also most humbly accept that the Insignia was developed for Army and then passed on to police and logically speaking Army should have the first right to it, but having known our babudom, I dont think its worth a try. Lets propose a Insignia distinctly different. Will save a lot of confusion. Lets change what we can and what might give us a positive result rather than wasting our time in wrangling.

2. Separate Pay Commision for Forces. I have a point to make here. Lets de Link pay of defence personnel from the regular central govt pay structure (This should not include all and sundry like, OFB, DRDO, BRO etc... but only men in uniform) May be the whole manner in which the forces are presented to the youth needs to be relooked. Why cant we propose a cost to Army kind of a system. So while quoting pay to an aspirant, the no should include(Salary+Cost of a Sahayak+Cost of Ration+Cost of providing accomodation+Subsidised cost of messing+a lot more about which you guys al;ready know)
This will make the fig look attractive. Show the true value of the job to the aspirant.

3. The Army needs a separate media management cell. paid out of its own budget. PIB and DAVP be damned. This cell should directly liasionize with media houses and ad agencies. Of course GoI oversight will be required.

4. Like it or not in one of the most fastest growing economies in the world where oppurtunities are aplenty, especially when the existence of the country is not being threatened (may be slowly or bit by bit, but for the majority of the people thats below the radar) it is going to be difficult to find dedicated young men and women for the Services. A large portion of vacancies have to be filled by SSC officers. Many more seats at the OTA is required and newer OTAs need to be set up. Only one more at Gaya isn't going to cut it.

I would have added a few more suggestions, but I'm refraining as they might be offensive to certain sensitivities and my idea is to have a constructive discussion and meeting of ideas and learn.

Corrections and opinions most welcome.

[Gaur]

^^
Very good points. However, sadly I doubt that such ideas would ever be implemented.

[negi]

1. Do you mean to say that a lieutenant should NEVER expect the kind of pay that a young MBA gets because it is a non-profit organisation?? Because soldiers do not meet sales figures and give high-sounding powerpoint presentations? Just for argument's sake why can't the government give enough money to soldiers to retain talent?? There is a huge backlog of officers' applications seeking permission to quit the forces, including high-merit types. All of them are below the rank of major. And all of them are unhappy with pay.

Yes and that is because those MBAs are not paid by the Gobmint . I am surprised and amused to see you argue on such lines . You talk about the 'Officers' who wish to quit over remuneration what about the policewallahs and the jawans who are further down the pecking order ? I don't think such arguments based on rhetoric or sentiments make any sense here .

To re iterate my position here , remuneration package for services has been made fairly attractive after 6th pay commission ,however if there exists grievances within the services they need to be raised objectively seeking parity with the private sector that too citing uber MBA salaries is outlandish .

2. Don't tell me that 17-year-olds joining NDA have no idea about politics. They do. Very well. They are great 'chakbazs' And what about the 24-year-olds joining IMA or OTA? They join the forces for the passion, all right, but are acutely aware of the ground realities.

What ground reality are you talking about ? A 17 year old who decides to join the forces is well aware of the kind of lifestyle/career path ahead of him and this includes the remuneration from there on decision to join or not to join given the 20 year commitment is dependent on his judgment of his own abilities and career goals. What has it got to do with politics ?

3. The SSB selection process has to be opaque. You can't have people mugging up answers to pass it. Do you want the IAS babu types in the forces as well? It's silly to think that someone can 'mug up' all the obstacle courses and ground tasks. Do you know that every SSB centre has several dozen ground task set-ups that are changed frequently and no one task is similar to anything in any other centre? I have never said that SSB cannot be made better. But you have to admit is is fair, and it has served us well, precisely because it is based on testing a candidate by instinct. If you have been to an SSB, i am sure you would have realised that,.

Where did I ask for GTOs to be made public ? the process is opaque as it does not appraise the candidate even at a high level as to where did he go wrong , there is nothing preventing the board from making the scores for tests public .

5. And what do you mean by saying that IIT 'gents' would only have to apply to join the forces, 'SSB or no SSB'? Frankly, it's hilarious.

I never said that , to re iterate people who opt for joining the forces could not have cared any less if there was a SSB or some different process altogether for screening the candidates , my question was what do you wish to highlight by referring to folks who got selected in IIT and how is it relevant to the discussion ?

4. FInally, you have not said if u passed SSB...

No I did not clear it , and I wonder if that is of any significance to discussion unless my points are factually incorrect . And I wonder , given the opaque nature of the process the ones who cleared know how does it work .

[Picklu]

I believe the whole discussion boils down to "Do we (we as in Indian Government) really wants our BEST to join/remain in military service or not?" The answer from various governments or different political hues appears to be an emphatic NO.
The fact is that military is a support function not the core productive sector. Since the goal of majority of the society (or for that matter humanity) is to improve lifestyle, prioritorisation is required from the national governing body for allocation of quality resources(including BEST manpower). Hence the whims of IPL3 will be catered to since it is the next best thing since slice bread as per as productivity is concerned whereas the military will be allocated the bare minimum necessary. What is bare minimum is subject to perception and open for negotiation but the end of the day this prioritorisation stands.
If after knowing all these someone wants to join the military, that is a personal decision based on lifestyle choice and job market.
The mango people understands this very well and hence the apathy and consequent officer shortage.

[Vipul]

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90.

[Ankit Desai]

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90.

“The senior officers who attended the trials were taken aback by the Arjun’s strong performance,” an officer who was present through the trials frankly stated. “But they were also pleased that the Arjun had finally come of age.”

oppsss

Ankit

[munna]

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90.

[JTull]

Arjun tank outruns, outguns Russian T-90.

Brilliant!

[D Roy]

X-posted from Armoured thread



Well if you can't induct it into your strike crops , use it for the new IBGs

As I have said before, the IBGs in any case must have qualitatively different equipment that can truly do justice to the paradigm

shift that the cold start doctrine epitomizes.

The IBGs must necessarily have network centric or at least network enabled platforms and must be as indigenous as possible.

Because these IBGs have the potential to become the kind of strategic asset for India that the Pakistanis think they have in the various irregular terrorists they have spawned. A class I category coercive tool.

Since the IBGs in any case should be made up of new hardware the compatibility issues with respect to bridging equipment can easily be sorted out.

we will simply use the Arjun BLT and an Arjun based ARV. Also we could easily use the Bhim Self propelled howitzer. Not to mention compatibilities in electronics of all the indigenous equipment.

And finally Arjun is sure to make mince meat out of anything the Pakis throw at us.

And by the way don't forget the symbolism of Arjun versus the AL Khalid.

[anjan]

^^^Prahaar ji, everyone working in India, from the chapraasi to the marginal farmer to the BPO emplyee to the Army officer has Indian conditions to deal with...Are you saying that in terms of "precedence order" of effort/difficulty/misery, the relative order between the serviceman and policeman and babu in India is somehow "worse" (in favour of the services) than in the US?? How do you calculate such relative "harshness" of professions?

The primary point being that the protocol order of the military in India is no different, broadly speaking, of most democracies, at least advanced ones...

That said, the whole concept of a protocol pecking order is so archaic that its divorced from the criticality/glamour/importance of a job - I gave the example of the Dirctor IB as an instance above..therefore, to argue that somehow this is the reason for officer shortage is inventing red herrings...thats the limited point..

The protocol pecking order is archaic? Official India lives and dies by protocol.Given how frequently and what a large part of the armed forces are engaged in counter insurgency/riot control/disaster relief and management/saving people from wells etc., the pecking order is of critical importance. These people have to interface often with people in the civil administration. It DOES matter what the protocol says in these cases.

US forces so rarely operate on own soil and deal with own civil administration that I expect it doesn't come up much. It might be interesting to see if such issues came up on said rare occasions like the aftermath of Katrina. The cases of the two countries are widely divergent however and it makes no sense to draw up a comparative study. Does any other 'advanced' democracy have the armed forces cleaning up messes created by the civil services left, right and center for perpetuity?

Nor is any of this particularly misleading re:recruitment. Every officer I've spoken to in the recent past brings this protocol disparity up. When people want to join a profession the usual practice is to actually find someone belonging to it and speaking to them. When there is near universal disenchantment in the armed forces on the treatment meted out to them by a 'grateful' country, it isn't hard to imagine this being communicated to youngsters and future officers. This will and does stifle recruitment.

Finally the army as an organization has a far, far steeper pyramidal structure than the civil services. This means the achieving each higher rank is much harder than for an equivalent member in the civil hierarchy. Even with this, courtesy of the manipulation of the pay bands, the armed forces find it hard to maintain even parity. Are you under the impression this does not come up during similar career advisory sessions?

[AdityaM]

[quote="CalvinH"]AdityaM ji, The IO cannot be at a level of Maj/Lt Gen. Not in 1998. The head of whole SSB station like Allahbad would be of that rank. IO would be Col or max brig in rank. For tech entry at least the eyesight limit is very relaxed and last time I heard anything that can be corrected is Ok.[/quote]
Calvinji, I don't know about the regular trend, but the main head of banglore SS on Caban road in '98, who took a 1-on-1 in his chambers was indeed introduced to us as a Maj/Lt Gen. Perhaps i got it wrong, but i will still stick by it. He was a sikh & he had studied in Lawrence school, Sanawar.
I knew that many senior army officers have studied in Lawrence school, hence threw it in to see if it softened him up. It did a bit .
He said my -4 sight was below permissible levels. I said i would go in for surgery if need be. he said its still not allowed. and finally I 'gave up'. Perhaps he was just toying with me. Later i felt i gave in too soon, but what use would it have been fighting against rules.
End result: army found others. I lost the life of being in uniform.

What is IO? the officers who took our daily tasks were a Lt.Colonel & a Major.
In the end i was bitter that they did not take me but took some whom 'i' felt were 'questionable' and 'undeserving'.