The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

Abhi_G · Post by **Abhi_G** » 11 Jun 2011 17:42

That is around 10 trillion dollars - 10 trillion, bigger than most estimates of the size of the global offshore private banking industry {according to poster}, thereby implying that Indian slush money stashed offshore accounts forms every cent of the offshore pvt banking market...

Any references supporting the bolded part?

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jun 2011 17:48

Abhi_G wrote:Any references supporting the bolded part

There are many reports from the industry...But one here..
http://www.mmc.com/knowledgecenter/Oliv ... anking.pdf

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 18:12

So BR bashing remains a part of the "substantive" agenda? It is part of the concrete proposal to tackle "corruption"?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2011 18:15

harbans wrote:I am posting this for only one reason: Defending Somnath ji and his POV. ( Though i am sure he does not require this defense)

First: After 10 pages of discussion the most pertinent question that was put forward was by Somnath ji. What is that 'this' that they demand?

Manish at least get the context correct. Someone fasts and has a demand for legislative, political changes. And after 10 pages of Pse-BR Camp debate, you've not even asked what exactly he is demanding and how he intends to go about it? If i support Somnath Ji asking that, am i wrong?

Does this answer that question? There are three points - I numbered them in red.
http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/05/stories ... 321400.htm

Ramdev said he and his supporters would not be satisfied by the “formation of a committee” to study his demands but wanted “concrete action,” especially on {1} bringing back black money stashed away abroad to India and {2} declaring them as national wealth and {3} slapping sedition charges on those stashing away black money abroad.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 18:20

SwamyG wrote:
disha wrote:SwamyG, not chooti - it is chota (small). Chooti leads to a different and unmentionable meaning. Also if the truth appears harsh, than it is.
I can vouch I have heard that word I should have said Choti instead of chooti...haa haa. Does Choti make it a feminine word?

The confusion comes from the difficulty in distinguishing in the "Roman" the "ch" as in "chalk" from "chatra" as in umbrella or "chaatra" as in student. We sometimes try to write "chh" as denoting the latter "cha". This particular "ch" is the later "ch", while the spelling first used is the previous "cha". "Chhoti" does not make it "feminine" - it is the change of form in the adjective according to the gender of the object it is being applied to. The previous word would be taken seriously foul.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 11 Jun 2011 18:29

jimmyray wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:
Good you asked that question.The present government needs to go, but Anna Hazare's efforts should not be commandeered by anyone.We owe it to him for standing tall on this.The government that comes after this should be able to effectively bring back the black money, and utilise it for helping the poor villagers, instead of killing villagers who have no choice but to walk with the Maoists, right now.
There has been a deliberate effort by some media houses and government to put Anna Hazare against Ramdev and vise versa. IMO people who are against corruption should avoid falling into this trap as this only leads weakening of anticorruption platform. Who started this anti-corruption movement (RD, AH, LKA) or who leads this movement is not the issue as long as this movement leads to a betterment of our society and reduces corruption in India. I am sure most people on this forum are intelligent enough to see this trap but heated debates (though necessary) and massive media propaganda sometimes clouds the vision of even the best of the best. Just my two cents.

Right on.Media Houses, specially those backed by the government confuse the public with their often contradictory takes.It is a trap,laid out in words.While AH did not fall into it, many who did develop a perception that there is a struggle for leadership for this movement.Just as in the Freedom movement there were many stalwarts each playing a valid role, here too we will have many staunch anti-corruption leaders and I really wish more from the youth see this opportunity.This is a movement that must not be smothered with contradictory words emanating from the press.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 18:30

I had thought that going back into BR-critic would be part of the un-substantive debate that we are supposed to have indulged in for better part of this thread. It seems not - since tacking BR again has reappeared from same source which has been proclaimed to have been the only initiator of "substantive" agenda on the thread.

Should we modify the proposed draft of the Lokpal bill to include a clause on BR? That say talking along the lines of BR, sympathizing with BR, inability to criticize or bash BR - all to be part of "vigilance angle" section? [That seems to have been left open for future additions according to the sweet will of the Lokpal] This would make the BR-bashing at least part of the "substantive" agenda to be discussed.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 18:38

sanjeevpunj wrote: Right on.Media Houses, specially those backed by the government confuse the public with their often contradictory takes.It is a trap,laid out in words.While AH did not fall into it, many who did develop a perception that there is a struggle for leadership for this movement.Just as in the Freedom movement there were many stalwarts each playing a valid role, here too we will have many staunch anti-corruption leaders and I really wish more from the youth see this opportunity.This is a movement that must not be smothered with contradictory words emanating from the press.

Is it possible for you to state this in concrete, actionable and substantive form? I mean what are your proposals that can be concretely stated and discussed? How do you propose to carry out your "wish", or propose to ensure that the "press does not smother"? what is your proposal to prevent others from falling into the trap which only AH apparently escaped from?

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2011 18:39

Bji: That is what I implied by feminine. Being a male I should not use "chhoti", right? But if a female was to use it would she not say "chhoti" instead of "chhota" ?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 11 Jun 2011 18:42

First of all, those fighting against corruption should be clean themselves, and should be able to prove it with a track record.In fact,the parameters set out by the Lok Pal Bill must first be tested on its own members, and then it should be deemed fit that these members will actually help eradicate corruption.It is a long long war, longer than anything we know and will take years.Those used to expecting results within days are deluding themselves.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 11 Jun 2011 18:54

brihaspati wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote: Right on.Media Houses, specially those backed by the government confuse the public with their often contradictory takes.It is a trap,laid out in words.While AH did not fall into it, many who did develop a perception that there is a struggle for leadership for this movement.Just as in the Freedom movement there were many stalwarts each playing a valid role, here too we will have many staunch anti-corruption leaders and I really wish more from the youth see this opportunity.This is a movement that must not be smothered with contradictory words emanating from the press.
Is it possible for you to state this in concrete, actionable and substantive form? I mean what are your proposals that can be concretely stated and discussed? How do you propose to carry out your "wish", or propose to ensure that the "press does not smother"? what is your proposal to prevent others from falling into the trap which only AH apparently escaped from?

Well that is something I am trying to think of and thanks for pointing out. One of the first proposals is "non-violent behaviour -in speech or in actions -in public" This includes speeches by leaders that do not arouse hatred or uncontrollable anger.I heard Anna Hazare speak that day, in my opinion his direction to the masses was "stay calm,do not react to provocation" and this went down well with the listeners, there was no reaction that could lead to police action.Similarily all intending to be leaders should first of all ensure they do not provoke animosity against individuals, instead they invoke a will to fight corruption per se, not the person.The person will always be brought to justice once this Lok Pal Bill succeeds.Till then, it is a straight uphill battle, and not to be won by character assasination of anyone, but by virtue of its own importance this LoK Pal Bill should prevail.I will think of more proposals and post them as they form in my mind.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2011 19:05

If anyone is interested in what the Constitution actually says:

Right to Freedom
19. (1) All citizens shall have the right—
(a) to freedom of speech and expression;
(b) to assemble peaceably and without arms;
(c) to form associations or unions;
(d) to move freely throughout the territory of India;
(e) to reside and settle in any part of the territory
of India; 1[and]

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2011 19:09

WYSINWYG

(S=setup, N=not)

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 19:12

Sanjeevpunj ji

Can we not do without using individuals as "models"? Using AH as a model of "public speech" that does not invite "police action" is difficult to use in practical terms. BR and his co-fasters were not giving any violent-speeches at midnight when they invited police action. It might all depend on the perceptions about the individual - police may simply invite themselves into situations according to their perception or the perception of their political masters. For example, even the incendiary "speeches" by Geelani and his companion in that public "presentation" in Delhi did not invite the wrath of the police.

You are outlining objectives in leaders about eliciting certain "responses" in their followers. But this is difficult to put in a substantive manner since leadership itself is not easily defined or characterized.

The Lokpal bill as it stands has many doubtful areas. If the logic that mere passing of a bill or even forming an institution that works according to the bill - really worked, then we would not be sitting here twiddling our thumbs at how to tackle judicial or government corruption for example. There were always supposed to be laws and checks and balances - but they do not seem to have done their work. Laws in themselves can be divinely perfect, but they will still be implemented by people - and in this case by a "selected" committee essentially with complete immunity for all practical purposes.

Do you see any substantial item in the proposed bill that was not possible to tackle within the pre-existing framework of the legal system in the country? [Except perhaps going after the judges and the cabinet - but that could have been accommodated simply by expanding the scope of the existing law isn't it?].

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 19:20

SwamyG wrote:Bji: That is what I implied by feminine. Being a male I should not use "chhoti", right? But if a female was to use it would she not say "chhoti" instead of "chhota" ?

"muh" - the mukha is the object.

If you used specifically yourself things could change - but here it is all about "muh"! [can curse out the grammar!]

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2011 19:22

It depends how we want to move forward collectively. Do we have enough majority/influencial minority to evolve into a maturity model based on experiences and values or do we want to rely on som established measures (history), that may be contradicting to the core values, but all comes with a hidden package deal.

We need to define first basic abstract words, like openess, right, democracy, vote, law, rule, obedience, and other virtues.. and get that as fundamental axioms to build on.

Caveat: we do not have a clean begining.. so it is all inheritence that needs refactoring.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jun 2011 19:34

One of the major misapprehensions about the Lokpal Bill is the assumption that the LokPal has the powers to "punish"..ACtually, the only institution with the powers to try and convict remains the judiciary...Even in the LokPal Bill, they have proposed special Lokpal courts, somewhat similar to special CBI courts that are already there...

I posted my first feedback to the "civil society" wallahs in the committee...

1. Keep the ambit of Lokpal to officers above Dy Secretary or equivalent - basically prevent it from being inundated with petty public corruption complaints..
2. Restrict the coverage to the "government" only, basically exclude Public Sector Undertakings...Prevention of Corruption Act (PCA) includes in its purview PSUs, and it is a terrible constraint in decision-making...Given that businesses tend to have very high numbers of "vested interest litigations", LokPal will be an additional burden...In any case, PSUs are not involved in the really "large", comsequential cases of public corruption..
3. The selection committee needs to be pruned down - too many people there..A committee comprising of the PM, Leader of Opposition, Chief Justice of SC should be good enough...
4. The PM should be covered in the ambit of Lokpal...As a measure to ensure greater "protection", any complaint against an incumbent PM should be judged by a full bench of the SC, headed by the CJ, to determine if the complaint is material and prima faci valid...(I am actually not sure of the legal angularities of this point, but I left it to the many lawyers in the committte, both civil society and govt!)...

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 11 Jun 2011 19:42

Dear Brihaspati ji,

Without using individual models would be the perfect way out. Is it possible? We would take the soul out of the bill, if it was possible.This bill is personified by fighters like Kiran bedi, Shanti Bhushan and Anna Hazare.

As you know,this bill was collaboratively drafted by Shanti Bhushan, retired Indian Police Service officer Kiran Bedi , Justice N. Santosh Hegde, advocate Prashant Bhushan, former chief election commissioner.and J. M. Lyngdoh in wide public consultation with the leaders of the India Against Corruption movement and civil society.

When anyone is serious in taking up this bill and pushing it through, they will have to observe a process, I feel, a process that does not lead to dead ends, does not incite violence.That is why I am insisting that speeches should be carefully written, so as not to have an effect that would prove counter productive to the movement.

IMHO, Firstly each and every Indian has to be educated about this bill, even if this process takes a time.I think all of us must first agree on the bill before we ask the government to validate and ratify it.Some people have already started assuming that the current government can fall on this, but that is assumption.The current government also could pro-actively pursue the enacting of this far reaching bill.

You mentioned

"The Lokpal bill as it stands has many doubtful areas."

I want to know more about what those doubts are.Perhaps then I can apply my mind more on this.

If the current laws could have been expanded to accomodate the salient points of this bill, this bill would not have come up.The core set of people in the government, who safeguard the constitution, who manipulate the constitution, who change it through legislation, if these people lack the will to push this bill, it is because they are so steeped in corruption, they want to just wish away this idea of fighting corruption.This bill is definitely an eye opener for them as well, and threatens their existence.

Let me quote one para from the Bill:

All existing anti-‐corruption agencies will be merged into Lokpal. The anti-‐corruption wing of CBI,the CVC and the vigilance wings of all departments will be merged into Lokpal.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 11 Jun 2011 19:50

sanjeevpunj wrote:If the current laws could have been expanded to accomodate the salient points of this bill, this bill would not have come up

In fact this is a non sequitor, the fundamental philosphy of the Bill is to create an "independent" (ie, indepndent of the executive) authority that can act as an overseer of investigations, some elements of prosecution, whistleblower protection and some sort of "directive" advice to the govt...The idea is to create an EC-type institution that evokes greater confidence in the anti-corruption machinery than the regular police/prosecution...Some elements, like whistleblower protection, is absent even the normal executive chain today...

That includes merging of the existing anti-corrption setup with Lokpal...It is a pretty good idea in fact...Though it would mean that the non-corruption mandate of CBI needs to be handed over to some other agency (CBI investigates all sorts of crimes - terror, murder, corruption et al)....

So existing laws/instittuions cannot be modified to look like Lokpal through minor modifications...

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 11 Jun 2011 19:53

Exactly.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 11 Jun 2011 19:53

Apologies if I sound too preachy/mod like

Please discuss only the following ones which all agree irrespective of your positions-
1) corruption/black money ithyadi.
2) means to curb this menace
3) GOI actions on it as they are the current dispensation at present and they have to take the hit or credit depending on their response. No other way as they gave birth to the biggest scams in our history.

please avoid discussions on
1) AH
2) BRD

it is stupid to discuss personalities of AH or BRD as they are only highlighting the corruption prevalent in the country. It derails the thread, makes the everyone lose their sense of control.
Like the old saying all rivers ultimately reach the sea.

peace

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2011 19:55

first answer why people are reluctant to change (for good)?

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 11 Jun 2011 20:09

SaiK wrote:first answer why people are reluctant to change (for good)?

whose good?

people in power - good or people not in power - good

the classic case of dhritarashtra, putra-vaatsalyam/ sva -vaatsalyam vs raja dharma.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 11 Jun 2011 20:37

People accept change after considering pros and cons of it.No one accepts change blindly.For example, when the Lok Pal Bill finally arrives, some people will still continue to do what they thought was right(demand bribes etc) and this reluctance to change will eventually drag them into scenarios which they can best imagine.Why they are reluctant to change? Because they dont want the money flow stopping.The Babus are going to provide the first wall of resistance to this bill.Their reluctance to change is very well known.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 11 Jun 2011 20:43

Being discussed on aajtak et l...why BR's health deteriorated in only 7 days to the extent that he has been admitted in the ITU when Gandhi ji could fast for more than 60 days + ,

PS-Any one is unlikely to survive without food and water beyond a week, if water intake is allowed body can take up to 15-20 days before death occurs.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 11 Jun 2011 20:56

SwamyG wrote:If anyone is interested in what the Constitution actually says:

Right to Freedom
19. (1) All citizens shall have the right—
(a) to freedom of speech and expression;
(b) to assemble peaceably and without arms;
(c) to form associations or unions;
(d) to move freely throughout the territory of India;
(e) to reside and settle in any part of the territory
of India; 1[and]

Shame on the upa govt..

Democracy is being killed at midnight when people sleep

People say that history repeats itself, this act, is another repitition of those emergency days .
Those who haven't seen Emergency rule and want to know where it all started what we see today, who laid the seeds of mega corruption ,misuse of govt. machinery and repetitive abuse of our fundamental rights ,this situation is just an aftermath of what started at that time in the form of misuse of the govt. machinery

We should always remember one thing and commonsense also says the same that as the existence of pakistan is and will always be against the existence of India,

same is the existence of Congress Inc. ,and will always be against, the fundamental tenets of our democracy, because their DNA is basically moulded against intelligent, free choice in Democracy

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 11 Jun 2011 21:17

Party Singh vs Government Singh

Has the time come for the Congress high command to issue notices to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, his virtual deputy Pranab Mukherjee and his principal interlocutor for officially unofficial dialogue Kapil Sibal, for gross violation of discipline? If it cannot muster up the courage to censure its own PM, it could always expel general secretary Digvijay Singh. The party Singh wants to send Baba Ramdev to prison or perdition, whichever is nearer. The government Singh believes that acrobatic subservience by four ministers in the VIP lounge of Delhi airport, rather than within the more private environment of a drawing room, before the crusader-Baba, is the way forward to an honest India in which every politician glistens with moral fervour, and anyone giving or taking a bribe gets the noose he deserves.

It must be the summer. The government's brain has melted. Whatever else may be your view of Baba Ramdev, you have to be a bit soft to believe he can be bribed by flattery. The Baba has not risen from a bicycle in Haryana to a private jet by being gullible. He is playing for much higher stakes.

The Prime Minister had two options when confronted by a "fast unto death". He could either negotiate with a man who had everything to gain by confrontation; or he could have gone over Baba Ramdev's head, as it were, and spoken directly to the India that was lining up in support of the Baba, not just in Delhi but in every small town. Better still, he could have done both; negotiate at a minimalist level, and address India's core concern comprehensively, decisively. The multiple negotiations with Ramdev have not only raised the latter's stature in public life, but also ensured that the credit for any decision will go not to Dr Singh's government but to the man who generated a midsummer day's thunderstorm.

Pressure is guaranteed to ensure mistakes in decision-making. Dr Manmohan Singh would have handled pressure from Opposition parties, but is unable to deal with parallel stress from two different, but inter-linked points. The anger of the people has derailed governance. But his most difficult challenge is neither from the people nor from a crusader; it is from a faction within Congress that derives its power from proximity to Mrs Sonia Gandhi. Digvijay Singh is the main spokesman of this faction, which is why he has the freedom to offer a continuous stream of alternative policy advice, on every matter from Assam to Kashmir, depending on the news of the day. Digvijay Singh has done more to weaken the authority of Dr Manmohan Singh than anyone else; and a mute Prime Minister's helplessness before this onslaught only confirms the power equations within today's Congress.

Mrs Sonia Gandhi has also empowered her parallel Cabinet, the NAC, which believes that Dr Singh's Cabinet and Parliament should listen to its instructions. Some of its members specialise in pomposity when they are not heckling the Prime Minister. The strategy is transparent: to snatch credit if the government does anything right, and turn stridently accusatory if the government makes a mistake.

Dr Manmohan Singh's government is not in any danger of being washed away by some sudden flood or devastated by an earthquake; its foundations are being eroded by inbred worms. Dr Singh is flashing a sword, slashing the heart of a former Cabinet colleague here, breaking the arm of a private sector executive, which makes for temporary political theatre. What he needs is very powerful pesticide, to be sprayed at home. The disease of corruption is not limited to enemies or allies who might have become dispensable. The Congress seems to believe that it can get away by speaking in multiple voices, each customised for whichever audience is in the hall.

Baba Ramdev has a significant advantage over the Congress in this test of wills. He has nothing to lose. (except his life)The Congress does: it could lose power.

MJ uses colourful language on the ruling dispensation.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 11 Jun 2011 21:19

Hackers join Ramdev's campaign

The statement by Anonymous read: "Over fifty years ago, Indian Freedom Fighters laid down their lives for our freedom. In the end, what was it all for? Today our politicians ride slip-shod over our laws, corruption is rampant. If the brutal way Baba Ramdev's hunger strike was crushed is anything to go by, it would seem that India is now on its way to becoming an undemocratic 'democracy'."

"Finally, steps were taken to correct this. The Lokpal Bill was created. And what happens? False tapes turn out to discredit those who support this bill, supporters of Baba Ramdev are mercilessly and brutally attacked," the statement read. They also mentioned, "If three minutes is all it took Anonymous, it's likely that no government website is safe. Remember that the websites for all Indian government departments are typically set up and run by the National Informatics Centre." Anonymous has become infamous over the past few months, after its repeated hacking of Sony's Playstation Network, in response to Sony's 'offensive against free speech and internet freedom'.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 11 Jun 2011 22:06

somnath wrote: 1. Keep the ambit of Lokpal to officers above Dy Secretary or equivalent - basically prevent it from being inundated with petty public corruption complaints..
2. Restrict the coverage to the "government" only, basically exclude Public Sector Undertakings...Prevention of Corruption Act (PCA) includes in its purview PSUs, and it is a terrible constraint in decision-making...Given that businesses tend to have very high numbers of "vested interest litigations", LokPal will be an additional burden...In any case, PSUs are not involved in the really "large", comsequential cases of public corruption..
3. The selection committee needs to be pruned down - too many people there..A committee comprising of the PM, Leader of Opposition, Chief Justice of SC should be good enough...
4. Comptroller & Auditor general should audit Lokpal regularly.
5. Lokpal should audit the functioning of various government units and offices on a cyclical basis and provide a rating in its report for each department/unit.

I would rather add a "Lower Lokpal" and a "Higher Lokpal" where the Lower lokpal looks after the lowly guys and higher lokpal looks after highly guys

Then:
1. Include some phraseology in Lokpal bill to repel the requirement that one has to seek permission of the government in order to complain and prosecute IAS officials etc.
2. In keeping with your obsessions with "analytics" over "real world work", Lokpal should have a research department that would publish annual public reports as to the state of corruption in India. This report should include quantitative information, alternatives, strategy and modus-operandi for next year, etc and other bla bla bla.
3. The part on "whistleblower protection" needs to be simplified and made less cumbersome and bureaucratic and more "whistleblower" friendly rather than bureaucrat friendly.

4. The PM should be covered in the ambit of Lokpal...As a measure to ensure greater "protection", any complaint against an incumbent PM should be judged by a full bench of the SC, headed by the CJ, to determine if the complaint is material and prima faci valid...(I am actually not sure of the legal angularities of this point, but I left it to the many lawyers in the committte, both civil society and govt!)...

Ahem, this suggestion sucks! You might as well create a cabal that will control LokPal selection

And what about the funding aspects of LokPal, when are they funded, when is there funding increased/decreased/kept stable and by who on what quantifiable parameter. LOL, otherwise if a corrupt simple only state government clerk who goes to office at 11pm and comes back by 4pm like myself becomes in charge of LokPal funding, then rest assured I will reduce it to zero so that lokpal becomes in name only yet completely ineffective.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 11 Jun 2011 22:12

sanjeevpunj ji,

Associating "persons" as the soul of a legal/institutional draft is eminently respectable perhaps, but it is not "substantive". You have to formally then include AH's name somehow inside the draft. Otherwise it carries no meaning. What do you mean by we cannot take out the "soul" from the laws/institutions? Are you saying that every time this institution is modified, its laws implemented, its practice carried out - we all have to remember who "drafted" this? Should that be given legal importance in interpretations of the many vague terms I point out in my post? Are we supposed to apply or imagine what AH would have interpreted [or his life's examples provide precedence] to test whether something was "blatant" or not for example?

I have already given a brief outline of where I have doubts about the draft on page 37 of this thread.

One hilarious example would be the inclusion of "selections from" the "civil society" without defining in the context of the proposed bill, who that "civil society" is. We already have unforgettable examples of what the regime thinks as "civil society" in the NAC.

One interpretation of this is that people who consider themselves "civil society" want a cut of the power over state machinery/functionaries without going through the much touted "electoral" hazing process - so much so rag-wrung here in the beginning.

There is a lot being made of "independent" whistle-blowing-protection -corruption-busting authority supposedly to be rested in the Lokpal. But the Lokpal is selected and not elected. Moreover selected by a group comprising the PM - whose legitimacy is ultimately derived from [officially] electoral mandate [and is in the case of our current PM - the mandate given to a coalition of political parties], and the CJ of SC, who is again appointed by the legislative authority. It is the same group which essentially coopts more members from dubious and not-defined categories like "civil society"! [Brings Teesta Seetalvad immediately to mind somehow - and NAC].

This is where the real "non-sequitur" lies if at all [liberal use of Latin phrases without knowing its limitations of applicability can be fraught with danger as often happens with sertain posting styles]. Assuming that "non-sequitur" is used in the logical sense - that a conclusion cannot be derived logically from the premise - how can a "body" of people be "independent" if it is selected by essentially political parties? [Well the same criticism would apply partly to the CJ too, but that is not the issue since it is the "independence" of the Lokpal which is being bandied so much!] What makes the PM a necessarily unbiased member of the selection committee? The only qualification that seems to be implied is that he enjoys "people's trust" symbolically because he is chosen by the majority of people's representatives.

So ultimately, "people's" electoral preferences is seen to be the real source of "trust" and confidence - but then we do not want the Lokpal to be directly elected! Would not a directly elected Lokpal be the best guarantee of "independence" given the above outlined assumptions of "legitimacy"? By having them "selected" by a mixture of "elected" and those unelected thought to be worthy enough or are convenient enough, "selected" by the "chosen" "elected" - are we not then showing our mistrust of the "people"?

Why do we not see any clamour from the loud voices which complained of "those un-elected" trying to "bypass the electoral process" and still gain influence and power - burst out in their habitual mockery and sarcasm about the clause on "selected from civil society"?

As for Lokpal not really having the power to "punish" and that being still reserved for regular judiciary : look up section 21C under the imposition of minor and major penalties. The designated vigilance officer passes the order of penalty directing the appropriate employer to implement. The elaboration of penalties is given too in the draft. "Regular courts:?" well where is it specified in the draft that it puts up a "regular judicial" court? it speaks of "benches" that sit over the investigating officer, the complainant and the accused officer. Hello! do you allow "regular" lawyers to represent the accused? Or the accuser? Are your lordships [who need not be professional by the given composition] utterings in that "bench" challenge-able in the "regular courts"? Is there any provision or dealing with "illegal" obtaining of evidence, or concoction of such evidence, by one or both of the prosecuting officer and the complainant?

Previous "anti-corruption" bodies/laws all are merged/submerged in this new super-bill. It means now then power to arrest or impose judicial custody for "investigative" reasons? Or this power is not to be retained? Like the CBI, can the "selected" Lokpal simply not harass someone possibly under wishes from political masters ? The Lokpal has been given super immunity - none of its "actions" can be challenged in "regular courts".

What is significant for me is the comparative hard stance on government non judicial servants and the paragraph long hesitation about going after judicial luminaries, the insistence on "more" "legal background" people in the selected, super-immune body, and less of "civil servants", and the involvement of undefined "civil society" in the selection process itself.

It will ultimately turn out to be another faction of the urban elite, especially the legal eagles and the so-called "civil society" [again image of Teesta Setalvad] trying have a handle on rashtryia power "without getting elected" even if crying hoarse about democarcy and condemnation of "trying to bypass elected authority". It always happens like that though, isn't it - genuine widespread grievances of the masses to be used by elite factions for their own personal power ambitions or pay off grudges.

Any completely immune for-actions-taken body which is a "selection" to boot - is a serious threat to democracy.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 11 Jun 2011 22:17

somnath wrote:One of the major misapprehensions about the Lokpal Bill is the assumption that the LokPal has the powers to "punish"..ACtually, the only institution with the powers to try and convict remains the judiciary...Even in the LokPal Bill, they have proposed special Lokpal courts, somewhat similar to special CBI courts that are already there...

I posted my first feedback to the "civil society" wallahs in the committee...

1. Keep the ambit of Lokpal to officers above Dy Secretary or equivalent - basically prevent it from being inundated with petty public corruption complaints..
2. Restrict the coverage to the "government" only, basically exclude Public Sector Undertakings...Prevention of Corruption Act (PCA) includes in its purview PSUs, and it is a terrible constraint in decision-making...Given that businesses tend to have very high numbers of "vested interest litigations", LokPal will be an additional burden...In any case, PSUs are not involved in the really "large", comsequential cases of public corruption..
3. The selection committee needs to be pruned down - too many people there..A committee comprising of the PM, Leader of Opposition, Chief Justice of SC should be good enough...
4. The PM should be covered in the ambit of Lokpal...As a measure to ensure greater "protection", any complaint against an incumbent PM should be judged by a full bench of the SC, headed by the CJ, to determine if the complaint is material and prima faci valid...(I am actually not sure of the legal angularities of this point, but I left it to the many lawyers in the committte, both civil society and govt!)...

somnath:

when you are not crying tears for the "abuse" that ARoy, etc have suffered and when you're not acting like an INC pamphleteer talking CTs about "Hindu Fascism," you actually say some sensible things...

4. I should say that PM has many responsibilities including in the sphere of Foreign affairs, Intelligence, Terrorism, Covert Action, etc etc. so, any Lokpal or other "corruption" bills incorporating PMO needs to be mindful of these realities and not become some idealistic crusade that hinders PM's actions to do the necessary things, and put national security at risk...

and any anti-corruption committee that consists of PM and Leader of Opposition is ripe for subversion. basically the two opposing parties will cut deals and subvert the bill.

perhaps, we should be focusing on "balance of Power," when it comes to corruption. like Montesqieu's Checks and Balances system. something that gives the Judiciary, legislature, and the executive/cabinet different powers that counteract each other when needed and work in a way that prevents collusion in Corruption.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 11 Jun 2011 22:27

somnath wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:If the current laws could have been expanded to accomodate the salient points of this bill, this bill would not have come up
In fact this is a non sequitor, the fundamental philosphy of the Bill is to create an "independent" (ie, indepndent of the executive) authority that can act as an overseer of investigations, some elements of prosecution, whistleblower protection and some sort of "directive" advice to the govt...The idea is to create an EC-type institution that evokes greater confidence in the anti-corruption machinery than the regular police/prosecution...Some elements, like whistleblower protection, is absent even the normal executive chain today...

That includes merging of the existing anti-corrption setup with Lokpal...It is a pretty good idea in fact...Though it would mean that the non-corruption mandate of CBI needs to be handed over to some other agency (CBI investigates all sorts of crimes - terror, murder, corruption et al)....

So existing laws/instittuions cannot be modified to look like Lokpal through minor modifications...

Brihaspati ji's warnings that the "Independent" bodies might turn out to be rabid breeding grounds for anti-Indian factions like ARoy and Teesta should be studied more deeply. "independent" sounds good. but there has to be a check on their powers. and who decides what kind of people will populate this panel??? i'm sure Maino and rest can't wait to get assorted Hindu haters, and anti-Indian traitors into the panel. NAC is a prime example of this. what's to say that Lokpal won't become the same? have you thought of any measures against that?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 11 Jun 2011 22:38

Cong distances itself from Ramdev views in its mouthpiece Sandesh

The Congress on Friday publicly censured the editor of its mouthpiece Sandesh for criticising the government for sending four Union ministers to the Delhi airport to receive Baba Ramdev on June 1.

The party said the views expressed in the journal were "the editor's personal opinion" and that it had nothing to do with it

(WTF- this is a congress mouthpiece reflecting itself)

Sensing that the editorial could trigger a row amid the Opposition's allegation that the party and the government were not on the same page in dealing with the Ramdev issue, the Congress on Thursday stopped the circulation of the magazine.However, after a late night discussion between top leaders and party treasurer Motilal Vohra, it was decided that the magazine should be distributed without deleting the objectionable lines as that would have generated yet another controversy.

ruling party surely is confused.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 11 Jun 2011 23:03

what's with the BJP trying to "point out" that INC is divided. this is done as if it's a great thing for BJP to point out. in reality, it's a good thing that INC is not full of chamchas who blindly follow. if there's fissures, that's good. it means there are those who still think independently. BJP should cultivate this instead of scoring temporary brownie points and gloating about how INC is "divided."

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 11 Jun 2011 23:05

Kamal Nath in trouble over ties with Baba Ramdev

Congress MP from Ujjain Premchand Guddu has written a letter to party president Sonia Gandhi demanding disciplinary action against the minister for supporting the yoga guru.

His Crime

A few weeks back, Baba Ramdev had visited Kamal Nath's constituency in Chhindwara in Madhya Pradesh.
The minister had not just welcomed him, but also participated in a yoga session with him in full public glare.
Kamal Nath had also heaped praises on Baba Ramdev, endorsing his call for satyagraha and even claiming support of the central government for his agitation.
Kamal Nath's endorsement of Baba Ramdev has taken the Congress by surprise with the party engaged in a running feud with the yoga guru.

No wonder some in the ruling dispensation are seeing saffron everywhere.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 11 Jun 2011 23:09

ask yourself ravi_ku, whose good you would like? you don't even get to counter there since we all know whose good it has to be. men/wimmen in power are people as well.

you are mistaken by the word "good" in a material sense.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 11 Jun 2011 23:39

As some have said,there already exists enough existing legislation to punish the guilty,but the will to do so is not there,moreover,the judicial system requires massive revamping to ensure that justice moves swiftly and not at snail's pace as of now.Special courts will have to be set up s in terrorist cases.The fact that Raja,Kani.Kalmadi and co. are guests in "Tihar Inn",is a first welcome step in the crusade against corruption.The pressure from social activism shoul be exploited by the combined Opposition to speed up any further legislative measures but more impoortantly ensuring that the law is allowed to function smoothly without political interference.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 12 Jun 2011 00:41

somnath wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:it displays a clubby and unwarrantedly elitist approach to what amounts to the appointment of another set of high-level government servants; which is odd considering that the whole problem arises because of lack of integrity in the class of government servants and politicians
------------------
I think the entire lok pal concept as presented is wrong, and makes the problem worse. Since something should be done about corruption, and that something needs to have some kind of power, I would pay particular attention to mitigating any harm arising from giving it that kind of eminently abusable power over people and institutions
I read through your full post, but thought that this encapsulates the critique of ..the LokPal....

For one, I dont think Lokpal is a silver bullet solution to corruption, much less for black money..In fact there is NO silver bullet...However, it can become a significant cog in the wheel...

But it is but one measure - the bigger "game" is structural changes in tax regimes and regulatory frameworks - which is where more work needs to be done...I detailed in an earlier post the measures urgently required, many nealry "cooked" and ready, that are pending...

About the "clubby and elitist" approach - well, that is not entirely fair...Would you say that the Election Commission is clubby and effete elistist institution? Is the CAG? For that matter, is the CVC? My favourite example is RBI - the world's best regulator of Banks (and I use the word "best" very very deliberately)...Net net, there are enough instances of institutional structures with a distinct level of independence from the executive that have served the country well...LokPal can evolve into a similar animal in itself...

Actually, to me the biggest plus point of the LokPal is in that, ie, separation from the executive..It will generate a certain amount of confidence in both people as well as the office bearers of the instituion, enabling it to perform the mission with competence...At this stage, I would say that quibbling over whether putting up info in a website as opposed to having chaupal discussions is elitist misses the woods for the trees...The bigger question is whether the institutional setup is robust with a clear and defined mandate...

In terms of setup, it looks much better now..Appointment, which is the key variable, looks pretty standard to most constittuional authorities - the elected reps are there (through PM and Leader of Opposition), the judiciary is there (it is over-represented, and thats not feasible)...But broadly, looks ok - I am sure the "youngest" business will be edited out finally, not sure what prpose it serves (we should ask Arvind K!)...

In terms of mandate, there are still glitches..For example, this whole business of "LokPal courts"...I mentioned it once before, we have tons of such "fast track" courts - CBI, TADA, POTA - with no disceernible difference made to the pace of adjudication...The issues there are different, quality of investigation and infrastructure beign the biggest by far - setting up fast track courts dont solve anything...Further, it gives certain crimes a "privileged" status...So a case prosecuted through a process of compiant to Lokpal has a fast track court, while one through a process of complaint to the local thana does not - it will only mean that the LokPal will soon become the repository of all corruption crimes possible, deluging it efectively...

Second, this whole idea of making the Lokpal a deemed "police officer" is frought with problems...If law and order is a state govt responsiblity, once cannot have another institution, not really answerable to the elctorate, sitting on the same concurrently...

To me, the Lokpal should primarily be a platform for whitleblowing against higher public officials...So corruption complaints against anyone above a certain level in executive (say, Dy Secretary), can be made to the LokPal..It acts as a whostleblower protector (which is there in the current draft) and get the rest of the "system" to react with alacrity on the complaint...So define timelines for certain processes of investigations, cut through the chase in prosecution (for public servants, prosecution requires certain approvals at higher levels) and so on...This way, it tackles the apex of the problem, at the highest level where the resistance is the strongest...Basically, a judicial/investiogative "grandfather" to the public, in colloquial terms...

The jury system - not sure it can work in India's current stage of societal evolution..Especially because identity based politics is so prevalent, at least as a rhetorical tool...If Mayawati is being prosecuted, a jury with (say) 90% upper caste members will immediately be accused of being casteist - should we then start having reservations in the jury?

Quickly, I just want to point out, somnath, that after talking about my "missing the wood for the trees" you have essentially launched into a thicket of technicalities and mechanical detail. You have also not paid attention to the parts where I discussed what the major "macro issues" are and what the social and political risks are, and how to mitigate the risk. If you think your excerpted bits of my post represent its essence, then let's say, there's a massive gap between my writing and your reading.

Your approach, and the lok pal approach, are all about creating yet another bit of machinery in the same mold as today's, which is the mold that has caused the problem in the first place. Either the mold is fine in which case the problem is bogus, or there is need for a new mold. In your approach, and that of the lok pal people, I don't see any ability to address the problem rationally, at the right level of abstraction, identifying causes, means, effects, and costs. If you are not able to do that, any amount of mastery of details of procedure is worse than useless because it creates an illusion of actually knowing something and doing something towards a goal.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 12 Jun 2011 00:45

Sir,

Thank you for soliciting public feedback regarding the proposed Lokpal Bill. I have read through the full text draft of the bill and have the following suggestion/comments:

1. Inclusion of a "Research, Analysis, and Publication Wing" under the LokPal.
The draft bill mandates that Lokpal should have an "Investigation Wing" (Section 25) and a "Prosecution Wing" (Section 25A). I would like to suggest that LokPal should also have a separate "Research, Analysis, and Publication Wing".

The "Research, Analysis, and Publication Wing" would be responsible for:
a) Researching and Publishing an annual public report on "State of Corruption". This report shall include qualitative and quantitative analysis of current state and trends regarding corruption including future challenges and failures in tacking corruption in India.
b) Carrying out quantitative and qualitative analysis of various economic, social, education, and legal (include taxation and revenue) parameters and recommending changes that would lead to reduction of corruption.
c) The "Research, Analysis, and Publication Wing" would be headed by an academician of impeccable integrity who is well versed in areas of quantitative and statistical analysis.
d) For efficiency and effectiveness, all reporting functions of the Lokpal would be centralized within "Research, Analysis, and Publication" wing.

2. In Section 28, please clarify as to what is meant by term "property"

3. In Section 31, maximum penalty of Rs 1 lack is not a sufficient deterrent to rich political and business class of this country. Therefore, maximum penalty should be "one forth of the annual income".

4. In Section 24, Repel the regulation that requires seeking approval from President Of India,Cabinet Secretary of India,C.V.C Commissioner, or Governor before prosecuting a civil servant (IAS, IPS, etc). We are no longer under British rule, so official should not have a higher legal status than common citizens of this country.

5. The section on "Whistleblower protection" should be more friendly towards "Whistleblowers". Currently, the section, as it stands right now appears to be extremely bureaucratic with too many investigative requirements. Whistleblowers should be provided immediate protection upon request. Once that protection has been provided, the LokPal should investigate whether protection is actually needed or not and for how long.

Sushupti · Post by **Sushupti** » 12 Jun 2011 00:47

Liability called Manmohan Singh
June 12, 2011 1:01:23 AM

Hari Shankar Vyas

Manmohan Singh has become a liability for the Congress. His political assets are zero. He was considered honest, humble and kind are no longer enough.

Sonia might not be thinking on these lines but many Congress leaders are distressed. The question haunting them is: How to tackle this liability for three more years?

Sonia Gandhi and Rahul have the difficult task ahead of garnering more votes. Rahul is eyeing a miracle in UP and the Congress has the target of grabbing the seven States where elections are scheduled for next year.

But there are many pitfalls with Manmohan Singh at the helm. Does Sonia want that the party sink with Manmohan? Can she risk a Government machinery at standstill? Would she welcome the fact that when there is a fight with civil society on the streets, Parliament becomes a wrestling ground?

With the public slowly and steadily turning away from the Congress party, Manmohan at helm is not helping matters. He is perceived to have brought the party at a juncture where it has power but scant voters.

People can’t forget the black day of June 4. Public perception is, whoever raises his voice against corruption will be crushed on Manmohan’s instructions.

This one wrong decision to lathicharge the Ramlila Grounds gathering will hit the party. To top that, the Opposition has come into action. Those days are not far away when Ramdev, Anna Hazare and Opposition leaders will team up to rock the Government. Though there are some differences within the BJP, the civil society is all but set to launch a final battle.

On the one hand, civil society and Left leaders want to create a wave against both the BJP and the Congress, on the other, the RSS and BJP are trying to engineer a JP-like movement. In both scenarios, it will be an ugly situation for the Congress. More so, with the Prime Minister showing zero acumen in political leadership.

PM’s follies

Manmohan Singh reminds you of the last Mughal emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar. While Palam was the outer limit of Zafar’s power, Manmohan’s sphere of influence is limited to just the power centre of Delhi’s Raisina Hill. The entire nation has stood up against corruption and sensing the belligerence of the common man, power players are scared that people from the rest of the country would march into Delhi.

In the first week of June, Manmohan turned into Muhammad Shah Rangeela. When told that the enemy Army was on way, Rangeela ignored the warning. When the Army reached Delhi, ordered his commanders to welcome the enemy and try to persuade them.

The PM, too, told his men to go to the airport and persuade Baba Ramdev to not go ahead with his agitation. Now today’s courtiers are shrewd lawyer/Ministers. So to make the PM happy Kapil Sibal, and Subodh Kant Sahay worked hard on Ramdev. The PM and his Ministers thought the enemy had been fooled and he would surrender. But that didn’t happen.

The boomeranged operation put 10, Janpath into anger: They were asked if this was the way to govern? After getting a rap from 10 Janpath, the PM again went into a huddle with his courtiers and asked what next? The courtiers advised: “Let’s go the Genghis Khan way. We should attack our enemy when they are asleep and all of them will flee.”

The PM agreed and then an order was passed in true Genghis style: Send in the force. And so, the June 4 midnight crackdown was launched on the people sleeping at Ramlila Ground and the entire gathering was forced to flee. Two days later, the PM said: “I had no other option.”

In the mixed regime of Bahadur Shah Zafar, Muhammad Shah Rangeela and Genghis Khan, Delhi has certainly become safe but just imagine the anger of the people beyond Palam.

Bad for singh

Kapil Sibal and P Chidambaram have their own set of supporters. Several times, Chidambaram has been applauded in this column for what he has done as Home Minister for the security of the country. This column has also praised Sibal’s decisions on educational reforms. The agenda set by the vision of Ministers like Sibal, Chidambaram and Jairam Ramesh may be the need of the hour, but as leaders, they’ve harmed Manmohan Singh intensely. Ministers who are lawyers are a problem for the Manmohan Singh Government and the Congress party.

First, Manmohan himself is apolitical, a former bureaucrat. Unfortunately, bureaucrats in India are not public servants. The do not care for the public. They only care for their respective bosses and themselves. It’s with the same mentality that Manmohan Singh has reigned for seven years now.

And that’s the reason why he has a bureaucratic fortress around him. He has has given more responsibilities to Sibal and PK Bansal who are from his home State of Punjab.

Since Sibal is outspoken, has good ties with the media and is trained to claim white is black and black is white, he has been made the political crisis manager. As the crisis deepened, dependency on Sibal increased. To top this, a team of lawyers like Chidambaram and Bansal were also there to make matters more complex.

Chidambaram and Sibal’s hold over the public is more or less the same. In the past, Chidambaram had facilitated a decision like the June 4 midnight one. It was the decision on Telangana.

The Congress is still paying for that decision. Several times, Sonia Gandhi and her political team have become victims of the mess-ups done by so-called crisis managers. In the coming days, the likes of Sibal, Chidambaram and Bansal will be at such loggerheads with civil society and the Opposition that Sonia would be directly affected.

In a sense, Sibal is preparing a platform for legal eagles like Subraman-ian Swamy and Ram Jethmalani to attack the Government.

Diggy’s hitters

If Sibal is letting down the Government, Digvijay Singh is doing the same to the Congress. Thanks to his faux pas, the BJP now feels safe. Those close to Ramdev, say that the Baba was all set to form his own party, perhaps by October. Not many know, but BJP president Nitin Gadkari lobbied hard at Hardwar to deter Ramdev from a separate outfit. But Ramdev was adamant. If his party had come into existence, it would have devoured saffron votes in the 2014 elections. But Sibal and Chidambaram ordered midnight swoop of June 4, took the BJP out from that danger.

Now, Ramdev will not form a party. The fight will be between the Congress and him, each vying to expose the other. This was strengthened by Digvijay’s attack on the RSS. The real fallout of Digvijay’s reference to “thugs” and “Osamaji” will be clear after the results of seven Assembly elections of 2012.

Sibal-Sahay sin

Sibal has been acting as crisis manager since the telecom scam. He is an advocate who has never had anything to do with the feelings of the public. He handles political fights as he would a courtroom case. That’s the reason he argued that since there was no loss to the exchequer, there was no question of a telecom scam! This one sentence drastically harmed the image of the Manmohan Government.

Unfortunately, the PM doesn’t have many reliable Ministers so he treats Sibal like a Rambaan. Sibal told the PM that since Sahay had good ties with Ramdev, he would handle the Baba easily. Sibal thought that Anna Hazare could also be handled with the help of Baba. On the other hand, Ramdev thought that he could persuade the Government with the help of his disciple Sahay and that would help him become a bigger hero than Hazare in public eye.

When Sibal and Sahay realised that Ramdev and his aide Acharya Balkrishna were themselves handling the entire situation, the Minister-duo decided to accept their demands in a hurry. Ramdev was happy.

Thinking it was all done neatly, Pranab Mukherjee went to meet the Baba at the airport when he was returning from Ujjain. Sonia was not consulted on this. Sibal directly talked to the PM and called Mukherjee to the airport along with the Cabinet Secretary.

Seeing the senior Ministers at the airport, Ramdev was on cloud nine. He thought the Government was bowing down to him and he should, thus, keep it in good humour.

However, he was also afoot with an alternate plan. He wanted to create a record of anshan at the Ramlila Grounds with 2 lakh people in tow. The duplicity of both sides made matters worse.

There was pressure to take a quick decision. But Ramdev had realised Sibal was cheating him with promises of empty committees, so he backtracked. That’s why an order was passed to teach the Baba a lesson and a lathicharge was ordered on his disciples who had converged at the Ramlila Grounds.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/345116/Liab ... Singh.html