Indian Army: News & Discussion

[Philip]

Well,the skirmishes are over,the "Battle of the Birthday" has begun.Whatever the merits of the case,since it is now with the SC,the govt. should've never have allowed matters reach this unpleasant stage.In the case of the sacking of Adm.Bhagwat,paper-pushers of babudom felt that they were the best judges of the merits of a man's promotion to a key post in the IN,over that of the CNS.The shady manner in which he was sacked and his successor sneaked into the capital was disgraceful.They are now making a martyr of Gen.Singh.Whatever the findings of the court,as it is within the GOI's pleasure to sack the chief,the Q still remains as to why the anomaly in the DsOB was not corrected for decades.The responsibility for this glaring error is the root cause of the current unseemly fracas.

[SagarAg]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guHVFhhWqWQ

General V. K Singh...

Really inspirational. Thanks

[chaanakya]

Data point.

NDTV reports that even Police Verification prior to joining NDA confirms DOB as 1951 as mentioned in Writ Petition.

[Austin]

Are these Red Beret IA Commandos equivalent to US Army Green Beret in terms of role and function they perform ? I see they are para qualified. Are these guns Tavor ?

You should have seen then do the parade during Army Day its really great to watch them.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o6cobUFvwOc/T ... +Day-2.jpg

[nachiket]

Are these Red Beret IA Commandos equivalent to US Army Green Beret in terms of role and function they perform ? I see they are para qualified. Are these guns Tavor ?

You should have seen then do the parade during Army Day its really great to watch them.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-o6cobUFvwOc/T ... +Day-2.jpg

Seem to be Paras with Tavors. They are wearing the maroon berets of the paras not red ones.

Edit: Wiki link for the Para Commandos: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Para_Commandos_(India)

[kunalverma]

Please do scan it for us, Kunal

Need a bit of help. I've scanned it, but haven't a clue how to upload it here. Can someone tell me what to do?

[nachiket]

Please do scan it for us, Kunal

Need a bit of help. I've scanned it, but haven't a clue how to upload it here. Can someone tell me what to do?

Upload it to a free hosting site like ImageShack and then post the link here.

[kunalverma]

Thanks nachiket.
Hope it works... Page 1 and 2 of the letter
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/32 ... 0001a.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/4625/s ... 01a.th.jpg" border="0"/></a>
<a href="http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/51 ... 0002a.jpg/" target="_blank"><img src="http://img515.imageshack.us/img515/5655 ... 02a.th.jpg" border="0"/></a>

[nachiket]

Thanks nachiket.
Hope it works... Page 1 and 2 of the letter

Fixed

[SagarAg]

Our honorable PM will do nothing just NOTHING. If he wanted he would have already done so.

[nelson]

Most of the new/ media headlines read " Army chief drags govt to court". Actually it is the other way round - "Govt has driven Army Chief to the court". As is its wont, the govt treats the servicepersons and veterans of the nation with impunity. It has not spared even the Chief.
You just have to see the number court/AFT cases that UoI is fighting the men in uniform(past and present), mostly on frivolous and technical grounds.
You must also have read this "woe betide the wounded soldier.."It should aptly read "woe betide the Indian soldier". Shame on this government and the people that keeps it in power.

[chaanakya]

Army Chief has shown immense faith in the Institutions and the remedy available to citizens with these constitutional system. That should be respected above all.Indeed Chief had been forced to seek all available remedy before being forced to go before the Supreme Court.

He could not have gone to High Court since in Warrant of Precedence COAS is 12 Ranking and Chief Justice of HC within their jurisdiction only 14th ranking. OT perhaps. But he has done right thing to approach SC, unprecedented it might be. He has no reason to resign and must serve his full term whatever it is. GOI has option to sack him and it is for them to decide if Chief had done something he ought not to have done.Let them sack him, if they so want.

[chetak]

Most of the new/ media headlines read " Army chief drags govt to court". Actually it is the other way round - "Govt has driven Army Chief to the court". As is its wont, the govt treats the servicepersons and veterans of the nation with impunity. It has not spared even the Chief.
You just have to see the number court/AFT cases that UoI is fighting the men in uniform(past and present), mostly on frivolous and technical grounds.
You must also have read this "woe betide the wounded soldier.."It should aptly read "woe betide the Indian soldier". Shame on this government and the people that keeps it in power.

Among the worst of the opinionated dinosaurs who came on TV were the airforce gentleman and some thing or the other Hoon. They both kept insinuating things against the present Chief in a very sly manner.

Both are uncle toms but for very different reasons onlee.

[chetak]

Most of the new/ media headlines read " Army chief drags govt to court". Actually it is the other way round - "Govt has driven Army Chief to the court". As is its wont, the govt treats the servicepersons and veterans of the nation with impunity. It has not spared even the Chief.
You just have to see the number court/AFT cases that UoI is fighting the men in uniform(past and present), mostly on frivolous and technical grounds.
You must also have read this "woe betide the wounded soldier.."It should aptly read "woe betide the Indian soldier". Shame on this government and the people that keeps it in power.

People really do not have even the vaguest idea of the number of lies told by one party because it controls the environment in which these cases are decided.

[chetak]

Most of the new/ media headlines read " Army chief drags govt to court". Actually it is the other way round - "Govt has driven Army Chief to the court". As is its wont, the govt treats the servicepersons and veterans of the nation with impunity. It has not spared even the Chief.
You just have to see the number court/AFT cases that UoI is fighting the men in uniform(past and present), mostly on frivolous and technical grounds.
You must also have read this "woe betide the wounded soldier.."It should aptly read "woe betide the Indian soldier". Shame on this government and the people that keeps it in power.

Shows how much the DDM is controlled and the slavish licking they do when merely asked to bend a bit. Ad revunues, foreign trips and expensive junkets with the PM and President are doled out as rewards as has been seen in the past, with the largesse being concentrated on just a few channels. No prizes for guessing which channels.

[nelson]

A post that is related in context but different in intent and message

http://indiamydreamland.blogspot.com/20 ... -game.html

[Roperia]

EXCERPTS: COAS GEN VK SINGH'S PETITION

GAURAV C SAWANT
NEW DELHI, JAN 16

Document after document in the Chief of the Army Staff General Vijay Kumar Singh’s 66 page petition and 150 page annexure in the Supreme Court give evidence of his ``correct’’ date of birth 10 May 1951.

The best legal minds in the army and the country have launched the final assault on the Government of India and the Ministry of Defence for quashing his statutory complaint to `reconcile’ the discrepancy in his age.

From his matriculation certificate issued by the Rajasthan Board to his father Major Jagat Singh’s service records, letter written by Officer Commanding, 14th Battalion of Rajput Regiment, letters written by DIG CID, query made by UPSC at the time of joining NDA, IMA, his commissioning identity card, awards, citations and promotion Boards, the army chief has attached documents to show how he has been wronged by both the Army Headquarters and the Ministry of Defence.


The Chief in his petition says`` respondent (Ministry of Defence) without going into the factual aspect as well as the law settled by this Hon’ble Court has dismissed the Statutory Complaint filed by the petitioner under section 27 of the Army Act. While dismissing the complaint, the respondent failed to appreciate that Matriculation Certificate and Date of Birth mentioned in the Service Records can only be the authentic proof of Date of Birth.’’

To strengthen his case, he has also annexed the opinion of former Chief Justice of India, JS Varma, taken by the Adjutant General’s Branch. The petition says:

``That it is also important to mention that the AG Branch also sought the opinion of Justice J.S. Verma, former Chief Justice of India, who also concluded that the Petitioner’s date of birth is 10.05.1951 and all records need to harmonise accordingly.’’

Giving a brief history of the issue, the petition says: ``since there was no certificate regarding DOB available for submitting with the UPSC application form including the class X certificate from the Rajasthan Secondary Education Board, a certificate from Officer Commanding, 14 Rajput Regiment dated 03.08.1965, certifying the date of birth of petitioner as 10.05.1951 as per the official records of his father, Shri Jagat Singh who was Major in the Army, was obtained and submitted to UPSC just before the written examinations.’’

The Army chief is also relying on CID investigation done way back in 1966 which show his ``correct’’ DoB as May 10 1951. In his petition he says: ``candidates seeking commission in the armed forces are required to undergo verification and are required to fill up Form SP-103 for this purpose, which has to be attested by the DIG of Police, C.I.D. of the respective States. The form for verification was filled by petitioner on 09.05.1966 and duly verified by the D.I.G., C.I.D., I.B., Rajasthan and the D.I.G., C.I.D., I.B., Punjab on 22nd June, 1966. The verification also reflects petitioner’s date of birth as 10th May 1951.’’

The Chief insists he was under the impression his correct DoB had been recorded as his I-Card at the time of commissioning showed so.He writes: ``it is relevant to point out here that every cadet before his commissioning to the Army from the IMA receives an identity card which is carried on for life by every officer. The identity card as issued to petitioner reflects his date of birth as 10th May 1951. The date of birth in the identity card is cross-checked from relevant document and there exists an elaborate procedure for this. On commissioning of an officer on joining the unit, a Record of service is also prepared and counter-signed by his commanding officer. Petitioner was commissioned in the Indian army on 14th June 1970 in Infantry in 2nd Battalion of the Rajput Regiment and his record of service at the time of his commission in 1970 also has the date of birth as 10 May, 1951. ‘’

The Chief has also hinted at his seniors – naming then COAS General Deepak Kapoor having let him down.

``That since the then Chief of Army Staff had personally assured him that he will resolve the issue regarding petitioner’s date of birth, but when nothing had been done for almost three months thereafter, the petitioner vide letter dated 1st July 2008 addressed to the then Chief of Army Staff, General Deepak Kapoor requested for justice to be done in his case. Petitioner also enquired as to the constraints mentioned by the MS Branch which compelled them to maintain DOB as 10th May 1950 despite petitioner’s having submitted the SSC Certificate in 1971 and mentioning his date of birth as 10th May 1951 in all his confidential reports.’’

The Chief in his petition says it is almost unbelievable that the government would get wrong advise from the Attorney General.

``It also seems almost unbelievable that the Attorney General would give precedence to the inadvertent mistake of wrongly writing the date of birth over the prescribed procedure such as preparation of IAFZ-2041 and therefore, the petitioner doubts as to whether a correct query was asked from the Ld. Attorney General.’’

[Roperia]

PTI now reporting

Government files caveat in Supreme Court on petition moved by Army chief V K Singh on his age issue.

http://www.ptinews.com/

[nelson]

EXCERPTS: COAS GEN VK SINGH'S PETITION

GAURAV C SAWANT
NEW DELHI, JAN 16

The Chief has also hinted at his seniors – naming then COAS General Deepak Kapoor having let him down.

Ominous sign for the Army and thereby the nation.

[nelson]

PTI now reporting

Government files caveat in Supreme Court on petition moved by Army chief V K Singh on his age issue.

http://www.ptinews.com/

I do not understand the respondent filing caveat. I thought it was natural for the Court to hear them out.
Is it because of the realisation of a weak case that UoI has?

[Roperia]

PTI now reporting

Government files caveat in Supreme Court on petition moved by Army chief V K Singh on his age issue.

http://www.ptinews.com/

I do not understand the respondent filing caveat. I thought it was natural for the Court to hear them out.
Is it because of the realisation of a weak case that UoI has?

Here is a detailed report by NDTV

Army Chief age row: Govt files caveat in Supreme Court

This seems to be governments stand

... Sources also say say that while all government employees have the right to seek legal help, certain positions merit absolute trust and should not be tarnished with an adversarial relationship...

IMO, this is a new low for the UPA govt after the CAG came under severe attack by the government.

It's time silent majority spoke up, says Vinod Rai

[nelson]

^The govt is preparing ground for sacking the Gen. At least, it is trying to create an impression that it intends to do so.
I say, that on the contrary to what this suggests, the govt should sack itself on this nth count of incompetence and political skullduggery.

This game of chess will have a riveting endgame.

[Roperia]

Now this is getting interesting. As soon as the matter went to court, there seems to movement in the government and bureaucracy Why didn't they do all this before? He has been pleading his case for like months now!

Defence Minister A K Antony meets Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to discuss issue of Army chief Gen V K Singh moving Supreme Court on age iss

Defence Secretary called back from Malaysia in view of development related to Army Chief's action.

Press Trust of India's twitter handle

[SagarAg]

Now this is getting interesting. As soon as the matter went to court, there seems to movement in the government and bureaucracy Why didn't they do all this before? He has been pleading his case for like months now!

Defence Minister A K Antony meets Prime Minister Manmohan Singh to discuss issue of Army chief Gen V K Singh moving Supreme Court on age iss

All this is DRAMA!!!!

Defence Secretary called back from Malaysia in view of development related to Army Chief's action.

Press Trust of India's twitter handle

[Kailash]

Army losing more men to landmines than war

[Murugan]

If General Singh's date of birth is taken as May 10, 1951 then he will retire in March 2013 and if May 10, 1950 is accepted then his tenure will come to an end in May 2012. The difference of one year will have an affect on who will succeed him as the next Army Chief.

If he retires on May 31, 2012 then Eastern Army Commander Lieutenant General Bikram Singh will take over as the next Army Chief, but if he demits office in March 2013 then Northern Army commander Lieutenant General KT Parnaik could take over from him as Lt Gen Bikram Singh will retire later in 2012.

But if General Singh is removed or resigns before May 31, 2012, then Western Command Chief Lieutenant General Shankar Ghosh, who is the senior most serving officer in the Army, will take on as the 27th Chief of the Indian Army.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/govt-moves-s ... 655-3.html

[Dilbu]

Army losing more men to landmines than war

Why are we not following international SOP for clearing landmines? We are losing too many men.

[nelson]

^In all probability, Gen Ghosh will not make it. They have not stretched it this far to let their favourite not become Chief.
Even in case of VKS resigning or Govt sacking him, the incumbent VCOAS is likely to officiate. Unless he himself is retiring in the interim...JMT

[nelson]

Army losing more men to landmines than war

Why are we not following international SOP for clearing landmines? We are losing too many men.

There are supposed to be three kinds of untruth. Lies, damned lies and statistics.
This report is of the last kind.

[member_21708]

Congress Government twisting facts to get rid of Army Chief VK Singh
भारत के थल सेनाध्यक्ष के जन्म तिथि के विषय पे पूरी जाँच पड़ताल के बाद कई चौंकाने वाले तथ्य प्रकट हुए । पता चलता है की इस विषय पे न सिर्फ सरकार, बल्कि सम्पूर्ण सूचना तंत्र झूठ पे झूठ बोल रहा है। इस विडियो में देखिये कैसे सरकार ने तथ्यों को तोड़-मोड़ के उन्हें थल सेनाध्यक्ष के विरुद्ध उपयोग किया।

आखिर इस पूरे प्रकरण के पीछे सरकार की क्या मंशा है ? क्यों सरकार एक निष्कलंक, देशभक्त सेनाधिकारी को पदमुक्त करना चाहती है ? क्या इसके पीछे कोई गहन रहस्य है ? इस सरकार ने अपना विशवास जनता में खो दिया है , फिर भी खुद त्यागपत्र देने के बजाय देशभक्तों को पदमुक्त करने में लगी है।

[nash]

^^^^
Probably he is not helping in making money out of defence deal --- "na khud kha raha hoga na kisi ko khane de raha hoga"

[member_21708]

Army chief age row: A battle for command of military

However, Gen Singh’s move has garnered massive support from the armed forces community and a sprinkling of politicians. Many MPs met prime minister Manmohan Singh a few months ago lobbying for Singh’s extension.

For now, Gen Singh is armed with case law that says that the date registered in the matriculation certificate is a legal document for all practical purposes including service in the armed forces. The petition also refers to the records with Adjutant General’s (AG) branch showing the date of birth as May 10, 1951 whereas the Military Secretary’s (MS) branch records put it as May 10, 1950.

Usually, the AG’s records are considered the final authority on such issues, making Gen Singh’s case a strong one on legal grounds.

Gen Singh also sought legal opinion of two former Chief Justices of India, JS Verma and V N Khare. Both had opined that his claim is legally sound.

http://www.dnaindia.com/india/report_ar ... ry_1638530

[rohitvats]

Someone in the comments section in TOI made an interesting observation - that the cut-off year for 36th NDA (VKS's course) was 1950; not born before 1 Jan 1948 and not later than 1 Jul 1950. The 36th NDA starter in Jul 1966.

[chaanakya]

Someone in the comments section in TOI made an interesting observation - that the cut-off year for 36th NDA (VKS's course) was 1950; not born before 1 Jan 1948 and not later than 1 Jul 1950. The 36th NDA starter in Jul 1966.

Seems to be misinformation as UPSC had recommended him and stated to have ascertained DOB from VKS. It was clarified by letter dated 18 June 1966 and accepted by UPSC and subsequently verified by Police.

[rohitvats]

^^^IIRC, the age for entry into NDA during the period was 15. When the 36th NDA course began in June 1966, VKS would still have been 15 years of age with May 1951 as DOB.

[chaanakya]

^^^IIRC, the age for entry into NDA during the period was 15. When the 36th NDA course began in June 1966, VKS would still have been 15 years of age with May 1951 as DOB.

I think it was 14 1/2 and 17 years . He would still be eligible. But if not eligible, UPSC , atfer that clarification, would not have recommended him.

[prahaar]

The simple point of contention is the DOB, and the truth about it needs to be established without doubt. If it is alleged that some incorrect/unethical/illegal actions were done by VKS by using the 1950 DOB (for promotions, entrance, etc.) that is a separate topic, and it would be fair to conduct an investigation about it ( if there is any proof of such actions). But that does not take away the General's right to establish his correct DOB. The government cannot hide incompetence or bad-intentions under the garb of open-shirt-torn-fly accusations. Those accusations are not germane to the issue.

[chaanakya]

Gives data points in the case.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/48nda/message/9431

[chackojoseph]

Victor Force extends helping hand to snow hit J&K

[SagarAg]

Can anyone clear me if VK Singh ji was chosen as COAS based on his birth date as 1950.