Bharat Rakshak

Jonnalu and makkalu (jowar and dry corn) about 40 years back were staple diet for farm laborors in telangana and was considered beneath the landlords. The landowners would plant 2-5 acres of fine rice like sambrani (which has very low yield) for their familie's consumption. After milling, broken rice is separated and bartered for fruit, vegetable, milk, and sometimes curd with the same farm laborors employed on their farms who would grow vegetables in their hamlets.

The laborors would be paid in corn/jowar which they coars grind and make upma like dish and eat with onion and red chillis and a bit of salt. Not sure how they used to get their vitamins and minerals. But then the average longevity was much less IIRC 50-55 years.

As soon as the cobs of corn come up we used to have huge feast with the young corn. Two dishes were made - gArelu (deep fried dumplings) and dosa with payasam made with corn milk on the side. That was all the corn we would eat throughout the year. The cairn was allowed to grow to maturity, harvested, shelled and dried. After paying off the farm laborors, whatever is left us stored in large - five feet high and about the same dia - bamboo baskets be are doled out as payment to laborors though out the year.

It was inefficient but from there India seems to be leapfrogging to another inefficient system of the west HO are seeing the bad effects only now after 100 years of intensive farming with huge combines. These combines are seen to be believed. I am right in the middle of corn country USA fir about 25 tears but stil be amazed at those behemoths. Literally three people would harvest, de husk, shell and dump the cirn into a truck. The combine does picking of the corn from the field, shred the stalk, de husk and shell. There is a spout coming out of the combine from which the grain is discharged directly into an open truck that moves in lock step with the combine. Several Midwest universities were set up as agricultural and mechanical universities. Civil engg dept. of my almamater is the one who invented RCC to solve the problem of grain storage. What they did was to build a cylindrical structure approx 25' high and about 15' dia with steel and cement to store corn. Not sure of the year but probably around the turn of the century.
It is one of the leading universities in engg., agriculture, and veterinary science. Vet college has huge numbers of farm animals on which they conduct research including genetic modifications, improve the yields, disease prevention.

Here we have the western universal ideal of "freedom of information" and "capitalist profit making" coming together with paid whore media to make money out of a social problem.

Well my,my, you've come full circle and adopted the Republican philosophy that charity belongs at the home and family and should be voluntary, not sponsored by government. My gosh. you wouldn't want anybody to start a business to care for old people now do we? You wouldn't want to pay for skilled nursing care would you? That would be just awful. besides you just know personally that all those old people have families are to take of them, no government sponsored programs needed. just like in Liberia where they lay down in the streets to die. I mean God forbid anybody should make a PROFIT taking care of old people. However, I think Western Universalism may be a bit more kinder and gentler than what the good doctor may intend for the elderly in india.

matrimc wrote:Jonnalu and makkalu (jowar and dry corn) about 40 years back were staple diet for farm laborors in telangana and was considered beneath the landlords. The landowners would plant 2-5 acres of fine rice like sambrani (which has very low yield) for their familie's consumption. After milling, broken rice is separated and bartered for fruit, vegetable, milk, and sometimes curd with the same farm laborors employed on their farms who would grow vegetables in their hamlets.

The laborors would be paid in corn/jowar which they coars grind and make upma like dish and eat with onion and red chillis and a bit of salt. Not sure how they used to get their vitamins and minerals. But then the average longevity was much less IIRC 50-55 years.

As soon as the cobs of corn come up we used to have huge feast with the young corn. Two dishes were made - gArelu (deep fried dumplings) and dosa with payasam made with corn milk on the side. That was all the corn we would eat throughout the year. The cairn was allowed to grow to maturity, harvested, shelled and dried. After paying off the farm laborors, whatever is left us stored in large - five feet high and about the same dia - bamboo baskets be are doled out as payment to laborors though out the year.

It was inefficient but from there India seems to be leapfrogging to another inefficient system of the west HO are seeing the bad effects only now after 100 years of intensive farming with huge combines. These combines are seen to be believed. I am right in the middle of corn country USA fir about 25 tears but stil be amazed at those behemoths. Literally three people would harvest, de husk, shell and dump the cirn into a truck. The combine does picking of the corn from the field, shred the stalk, de husk and shell. There is a spout coming out of the combine from which the grain is discharged directly into an open truck that moves in lock step with the combine. Several Midwest universities were set up as agricultural and mechanical universities. Civil engg dept. of my almamater is the one who invented RCC to solve the problem of grain storage. What they did was to build a cylindrical structure approx 25' high and about 15' dia with steel and cement to store corn. Not sure of the year but probably around the turn of the century.
It is one of the leading universities in engg., agriculture, and veterinary science. Vet college has huge numbers of farm animals on which they conduct research including genetic modifications, improve the yields, disease prevention.

The US cannot possibly eat all that it grows. So most of the grain produced goes for animal feed. The government also buys a portion to give away around the world but that is a drop in the bucket. The gov also pays farmers to set aside their land to keep it out of production. Again, that is a small drop. Animal production is where the action is at. it brings top dollar for their grain.

Full disclosure, I used to work at the John Deere Harvester Combine plant in East Moline, Il.

TSJones wrote:

Here we have the western universal ideal of "freedom of information" and "capitalist profit making" coming together with paid whore media to make money out of a social problem.

Well my,my, you've come full circle and adopted the Republican philosophy that charity belongs at the home and family and should be voluntary, not sponsored by government. My gosh. you wouldn't want anybody to start a business to care for old people now do we? You wouldn't want to pay for skilled nursing care would you? That would be just awful. besides you just know personally that all those old people have families are to take of them, no government sponsored programs needed. just like in Liberia where they lay down in the streets to die. I mean God forbid anybody should make a PROFIT taking care of old people. However, I think Western Universalism may be a bit more kinder and gentler than what the good doctor may intend for the elderly in india.

Mr Jones you are making an American argument about what I said. I don't even know what Republican means. Reminds me of a time when a desi friend of mine on an alumni forum called me Rush Limbaugh. wtf? I have no idea what dafaq Rush Limbaugh might be - I thought it might be a dish prepared in a hurry.

But you have a point - only you may not understand it yourself. Family needs to be encouraged. Not businesses. I don't see that happening in the US. And I see Indians copying the US. Even when I was a young man, it was unlikely that any old person would have "no family" because family in India is always "extended family" that includes, as I am sure you will know, uncles, aunts, cousins, second cousins and even co-brothers and co sisters. I will leave it to you to figure that one out. And you know that hated "caste" system that you have been taught about? It was never "caste" - a western corruption of reality. It is (in part) "jati" the extended family where everyone cares for everyone else. Why do you think fresh off the boat Indians keep calling older Indians "uncle" or "aunty". Family means something different from what you think you know.

In India we have separate descriptive terms for father's elder brother, father's younger brother, father's elder sister, mothers elder sister. Same for mother. You guys in America don't even know what family means and the pathetic mirage you thought was "family" is now being destroyed hordes of morons who can't differentiate their di(ks from their brains. I don't want to see that happen in India. The US has a long way to go to understand humanity.

What I find very interesting is the automatic ownership of something familiar (and "good") as "western" or "ours", and correspondingly the automatic rejection of something familiar (and not "good") as "non-western" or "theirs" or "native". It does not matter if what is familiar to the western mind originated independently in another culture. It may even have its origins in the "other" culture, but the western mind will assume they are the rightful owners. I would call it thieving, and that would be apt considering that is what the west has excelled in historically, but others may disagree.

The western mind is trained to digest, and Rajiv Malhotra is right on the money on that one. Anything good is ours, like Yoga, meditation etc. Anything "bad" is theirs : yeeevil women burning culture of yindooooism.

http://www.decolonizingyoga.com/yoga-no ... ite-girls/

One more example
^^

It does not matter if what is familiar to the western mind originated independently in another culture. It may even have its origins in the "other" culture, but the western mind will assume they are the rightful owners. I would call it thieving, and that would be apt considering that is what the west has excelled in historically, but others may disagree.

shiv wrote: In India we have separate descriptive terms for father's elder brother, father's younger brother, father's elder sister, mothers elder sister. Same for mother. You guys in America don't even know what family means and the pathetic mirage you thought was "family" is now being destroyed hordes of morons who can't differentiate their di(ks from their brains. I don't want to see that happen in India. The US has a long way to go to understand humanity.

I guess the world should learn from the dharmic family system which have brought the male:female ratio to such excellent proportions. Or those who were responsible for the thousands of cases of bride burning cases a year circa 1990. The systems evolved in India (as anywhere) to take care of the elderly is forced by situation. It survives only because that's the best possible solution under the circumstances. Once those circumstances change, practices change too. All systems have their pros and cons. I can point to many families that have nothing whatsoever to do with the US where the daughter-in-law would give her right arm to be shorn of the *your* understanding of humanity or family. Your spinning of this dharmic heaven is about as valid as Muslim yearning for the perfect muslim state. It never existed.

KrishnaK wrote:The systems evolved in India (as anywhere) to take care of the elderly is forced by situation. It survives only because that's the best possible solution under the circumstances. Once those circumstances change, practices change too.

Without taking ur "flies to feculence" bait and ignoring your vast knowledge of desi Daughter-in-laws

What new practice and family structure are you proposing other than the broken down one by WU?

KrishnaK wrote:I guess the world should learn from the dharmic family system which have brought the male:female ratio to such excellent proportions. Or those who were responsible for the thousands of cases of bride burning cases a year circa 1990. The systems evolved in India (as anywhere) to take care of the elderly is forced by situation. It survives only because that's the best possible solution under the circumstances. Once those circumstances change, practices change too. All systems have their pros and cons. I can point to many families that have nothing whatsoever to do with the US where the daughter-in-law would give her right arm to be shorn of the *your* understanding of humanity or family. Your spinning of this dharmic heaven is about as valid as Muslim yearning for the perfect muslim state. It never existed.

Indeed the best of US families have a similar understanding of family as effective an understanding of family as the best of Indian families. The question is how much of it is promoted as good in the popular culture and how much of it is promoted as archaic, irrelevant, stifling, anti-liberty, etc.

A_Gupta: Very pithy.

.

KrishnaK wrote:I guess the world should learn from the dharmic family system which have brought the male:female ratio to such excellent proportions. Or those who were responsible for the thousands of cases of bride burning cases a year circa 1990. The systems evolved in India (as anywhere) to take care of the elderly is forced by situation. It survives only because that's the best possible solution under the circumstances. Once those circumstances change, practices change too. All systems have their pros and cons. I can point to many families that have nothing whatsoever to do with the US where the daughter-in-law would give her right arm to be shorn of the *your* understanding of humanity or family. Your spinning of this dharmic heaven is about as valid as Muslim yearning for the perfect muslim state. It never existed.

You are saying:
"Indian society has problems, therefore American society is right on the button in committing harakiri"

This sounds like:
"Red Indians were barbarians, therefore their white European killers are saints"

Predictably you have hit another sixer to add to your list of utterly brainless posts. Problems within Indian society do not mean that US society is heading the right way any more than my torn shirt justifies your unzipped fly.

I seem to have upset you and that means I am pushing all the right buttons and am on the right track about WU.

A_Gupta wrote: Indeed the best of US families have a similar understanding of family as effective an understanding of family as the best of Indian families. The question is how much of it is promoted as good in the popular culture and how much of it is promoted as archaic, irrelevant, stifling, anti-liberty, etc.

And why shouldn't it be promoted as archaic, irrelevant, stifling, anti-liberty ? Why should an alternative stream of thought not exist ? Another very paki trait here is that impressionable young minds are being corrupted by propaganda. If extended nuclear families make sense as the youth in India move to far flung places, marry somebody completely different from their own backgrounds, it'll continue to be in spite of what's being "promoted as good in the popular culture".

KrishnaK wrote: Your spinning of this dharmic heaven is about as valid as Muslim yearning for the perfect muslim state. It never existed.

KrishnaK wrote:Another very paki trait here is that impressionable young minds are being corrupted by propaganda.

If it's Muslim its no good.

If it's Paki it's no good

If its Indian it's no good

If its American it's good

You and I are saying exactly the same things. Except that you believe all of it. But I say you are a sepoy. "Don't mess with my massa!"

This is not going to change no matter which way your frame your tired opinions.

A_Gupta wrote:

KrishnaK wrote:I guess the world should learn from the dharmic family system which have brought the male:female ratio to such excellent proportions. Or those who were responsible for the thousands of cases of bride burning cases a year circa 1990. The systems evolved in India (as anywhere) to take care of the elderly is forced by situation. It survives only because that's the best possible solution under the circumstances. Once those circumstances change, practices change too. All systems have their pros and cons. I can point to many families that have nothing whatsoever to do with the US where the daughter-in-law would give her right arm to be shorn of the *your* understanding of humanity or family. Your spinning of this dharmic heaven is about as valid as Muslim yearning for the perfect muslim state. It never existed.

Indeed the best of US families have a similar understanding of family as effective an understanding of family as the best of Indian families. The question is how much of it is promoted as good in the popular culture and how much of it is promoted as archaic, irrelevant, stifling, anti-liberty, etc.

ravi_g — 'All happy families are alike; each unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.'

But KrishnaK ji, that state very much exists even today. You don't want to even acknowledge it.

But jaane do, jo hamara hai hum dushman ki chaati mein jhanda gaad kar le lenge.

shiv wrote:You are saying:
"Indian society has problems, therefore American society is right on the button in committing harakiri"

This sounds like:
"Red Indians were barbarians, therefore their white European killers are saints"

No. I'm questioning your claim that it is very morally wrong to look for profit in taking care of the elderly. How do you know it's not better ? What do you have to show that the reason family values are eroding in India because the youth are copying the west, rather than the same forces being unleashed in India that were in the west, thereby making us as much a creature of circumstances as anyone else.

Predictably you have hit another sixer to add to your list of utterly brainless posts. Problems within Indian society do not mean that US society is heading the right way any more than my torn shirt justifies your unzipped fly.

Do you mean along the lines of "Indians are more altruistic and less materialistic than the west", "there's not enough resources to allow for american levels of consumption" or the prize winner - Indians are taught to be diffident while Americans are taught to be whatever. What are those claims backed by, other than of course your piercing wisdom ? The way I see it, Indians have gone on to be very successful in all parts of the world in all sorts of different callings. Even with the higher motivation behind immigrant families, along with strong family net and/or focus on education being a big factor in that success, there's still nothing to point that Indians are more diffident on a whole than anybody from anywhere.

I seem to have upset you and that means I am pushing all the right buttons and am on the right track about WU.

This has nothing to do with western universalism and quite a bit to do with your own rather poor view of India and Indians. More importantly it has to do poking holes in your rather absurd claims. The only thing your analysis reflects on, is yourself.

shiv wrote:

KrishnaK wrote: Your spinning of this dharmic heaven is about as valid as Muslim yearning for the perfect muslim state. It never existed.

KrishnaK wrote:Another very paki trait here is that impressionable young minds are being corrupted by propaganda.

If it's Muslim its no good.

If it's Paki it's no good

If its Indian it's no good

If its American it's good

You and I are saying exactly the same things. Except that you believe all of it. But I say you are a sepoy. "Don't mess with my massa!"

This is not going to change no matter which way your frame your tired opinions.

Try again.

KrishnaK wrote: If extended nuclear families make sense as the youth in India move to far flung places, marry somebody completely different from their own backgrounds, it'll continue to be in spite of what's being "promoted as good in the popular culture".

That is so reassuring. But then what is wrong in being critical of that which is being promoted in the US as "good in the popular culture'? Just because Indian youth stick to all these lovable Indian norms does not mean that others should not be critical of the trash that is being promoted as good in your American society.

Just like the overflowing goodness of your heart seeks to correct the ills of Indian society, the overflowing goodness of my heart seeks to at least point out, if not help correct the ills of a suicidal western society. The need to change the subject from a criticism of western society to a criticism of Indian society is sophistry.

Of course the bible advises that one should correct oneself before trying to correct someone esle. But the bioble also says "No homosexuality". How about applying the same standards everywhere. If biblical advice is being promoted in one area, apply it in the other as well.

KrishnaK wrote: No. I'm questioning your claim that it is very morally wrong to look for profit in taking care of the elderly. How do you know it's not better ? What do you have to show that the reason family values are eroding in India because the youth are copying the west, rather than the same forces being unleashed in India that were in the west, thereby making us as much a creature of circumstances as anyone else. .

No I am not saying it is morally wrong to make profits from the elderly. I am saying that it is morally wrong to build a society where families are being destroyed and that this is a route that should be avoided if possible. I am saying that American society is all about destroying family and the "profit making from the elderly" becomes necessary and good in increasing numbers after that. India is not yet there but I am saying these things out loud in the hope that India can avoid the dead end towards which I see American society heading.

KrishnaK wrote:What are those claims backed by, other than of course your piercing wisdom

Are you jealous? I state my opinion. You disagree but you need to take the extra step of making a heartburn filled reference to what you, in your words, call "my piercing wisdom". I did not say that. If you see my words that way - that is a product of your mind like much of the other nonsense that you post in great anger.

If you are unable to simply disagree or even make a sensible rebuttal, your getting angry and sarcastic is simply icing on my cake. Have you tried sucking it up and living with my piercing wisdom?

Though OT but reading shiv ji's comments above reminded me of a piece of wisdom I got long time ago: Prejudice is angry; Conviction has a calm about itself.

http://scroll.in/article/682341/Doniger ... soap-boxes
Doniger considered sending copies of 'The Hindus' to India in soap boxes

KrishnaK wrote:And why shouldn't it be promoted as archaic, irrelevant, stifling, anti-liberty ?

Because it isn't.

PS: Society has an interest in the truth. Promoting falsehoods out of the "there should be freedom, alternative points of view" etc., is simply wrong. There is overwhelming empirical evidence that the breakdown of family is one of the root causes of poverty in America, the richest country in the world, etc., etc.

PPS: And there is nothing more anti-freedom than poverty.

I reproduce this here for this one key insight only, (I don't think for the purposes of this Western Universalism thread you need read any more of it, though you might read it for other reasons):

http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/ ... ern-muslim

Turks have always grasped better than most that modernity is something of a con game. Through hard experience -- spending decades, say, building what they thought were clean, cutting-edge, concrete apartment blocks only to be told by Europeans that a more modern government would have focused on historic preservation -- Turkish leaders discovered that the best thing about being a modern country is having the money and strength to decide what it means to be modern.

India may not yet have the money and strength sufficient to decide for itself what it means to be modern, but it is getting there, very close. And my bet is it won't look anything like American or European modernity despite all the charges of foulness, fascism and fundamentalism that are going to be hurled against the Indian architects of Indian modernity, for daring to deviate from the American or European norm.

A_Gupta, In a sense BRF also came to that conclusion that's its all about money and strength to decide what we want to be and hence came about.

No wonder we stick here as we know what matters.

I have been doing this thought experiment, borrowed from a short story by Derrick Bell called The Space Traders

An alien invasion (like so happens in almost every sci-fi literature that the west has ever produced*) on planet earth results in the defeat of "humanity" and the aliens decide to take a memorabilia from planet earth, which happens to be the "smartest", "most advanced" and "most culturally superior" people on planet earth.

So one fine morning when an unwashed Indian wakes up, he realizes that Umrika, Oirope, Ostralia etc are all gone. What is going to happen to him? How is his future going to look like?

I thought about this 2 years ago when I came across that story, and my conclusion was it would be bleak and one filled with violence. I missed something, and that was human lifespans are so short compared to history. Yes it will be bleak for "sometime", there will be war with a power hungry China and in the process the Saudis and middle east will be recolonized by China or Russia. But on the other hand, the demand on natural resources will come down drastically and peace might ensue. In about 6000 years (10000CE) the most advanced part of planet earth in 2000CE will be a mere blip in the history of Humanity. i.e. IMVHO: In 6000 years the history is going to "look the same" if the west was there or not.

There is no permanent dominance of anyone or any culture. In the long history of humanity (if it survives for long), cultures and economies are blips. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no universalism, IMO.


*Special exception: StarTrek.

And yet here we are broken and tattered, but not defeated and Sanathana Dharma ever changing, but always rooted, needing love and attention but undefeated...

The many compromises in blood and sweat civilizations make lay the path to their success, but as if every life is necessarily invested with a time of death, the very success and the path taken invests the civilizations with the seeds of their very demise.
All non-living structures suffer the tyranny of second law of thermodynamics... life and living systems escape this terminal investment by regeneration. Here in lies the key to understanding SD.

All other systems known to humans are not living systems and hence do not have longevity. Someone had asked if we are ants or bees, when you ponder on this however disturbing to your WU educated clarity, it will slowly begin to make sense as to why we need to remain a living system. I for sure recognize my views will be controversial, but as many of you know, that has never dissuaded me from making a point or changing my mind when presented with better proposition and evidence.

Money and military strength are important, but it is firmly rooted in the comfortable WU framework to see reality in such simplistic utilitarian ways.
The key to understand that the path and the compromises made by India will determine her longevity, but then in hindsight it would appear as common sense. What would be worse is if that path and compromises somehow becomes a universal.

^^ Yes, Entropic degeneration can kill cultures. There is a book by Jared Diamond called Collapse. Entropic degeneration is the one thing I identified in his stories to be the underlying theme of cultural collapse.

I do agree with you that living with thermodynamic synergy with nature (which is how it was supposed to be), is something unique in SD and it could be the only thing that has kept us relevant for so long, and who knows maybe even after 6000 years there might be proud indics left (at that time with more than 16000 years of history). One can only speculate.

BTW: technical nitpick , even living thing suffer the second law. But the "natural balance of the biosphere" before the invention of tools made sure that the rate of entropy increase (a measure of degeneration) was minimal. It was almost negligible until agriculture, which is what changed the face of the planet for good.

LokeshC wrote:^^ Yes, Entropic degeneration can kill cultures. There is a book by Jared Diamond called Collapse. Entropic degeneration is the one thing I identified in his stories to be the underlying theme of cultural collapse.

I do agree with you that living with thermodynamic synergy with nature (which is how it was supposed to be), is something unique in SD and it could be the only thing that has kept us relevant for so long, and who knows maybe even after 6000 years there might be proud indics left (at that time with more than 16000 years of history). One can only speculate.

BTW: technical nitpick , even living thing suffer the second law. But the "natural balance of the biosphere" before the invention of tools made sure that the rate of entropy increase (a measure of degeneration) was minimal. It was almost negligible until agriculture, which is what changed the face of the planet for good.

I bought Jared Diamond's "Collapse" on Kindle two weeks ago after reading reviews of related information. Unfortunately I am still stuck reading Plato's "Republic" and have 600 kindle pages to go. But both these books were acquired from the stimulus of this thread - so let's see what I'm thinking after I have read them.

shiv,

Not to spoil your enthusiasm, but he does not manage to step out of WU. He tries to do so, but the roots of WU are deep. I would just use the data in that book, which in itself is pretty extensive. Just make sure that you draw your own conclusions (I am sure you would).

LokeshC wrote:shiv,

Not to spoil your enthusiasm, but he does not manage to step out of WU. He tries to do so, but the roots of WU are deep. I would just use the data in that book, which in itself is pretty extensive. Just make sure that you draw your own conclusions (I am sure you would).

Yes I know. But I did some online research and had a choice of 3-4 books dealing with the subject and I thought I would settle on Diamond and make allowance for his mad-ass theories. I am not sure I will agree with them necessarily - I notice that "writers" in the west like musicians all attend special finishing schools that ensure that they become uniformly competent. Many new authors can make dry topics very interesting - i.e they write well even if they write crap like A-dotty ma'am. This is an offshoot of the education system in the west. So we have a whole lot of really interesting books on dry subjects - "History of salt", "Guns, Germs and Steel", "Empires of the Indus", "The Great Arc" etc Some are good. Some are so so. All need to be read with a critical eye.

For those who see Americanism as the summum bonum of human existence, and Indians as irrational, superstitious primitives:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/opini ... -them.html

More than one in five Republicans last year told a pollster they believed that President Obama was the anti-Christ......Two-thirds of Republicans think people can be possessed by demons.

I wonder if anyone has done any research to see if Indian society ever had a concept of a 'patent' or proprietary information of any sort? I think these may be embedded in WU.

I just tried to translate "Knowledge is power" to any Indian language and could not get anything meaningful. My conclusion is knowledge is only 'power' if it is not shared.

csaurabh wrote:I wonder if anyone has done any research to see if Indian society ever had a concept of a 'patent' or proprietary information of any sort? I think these may be embedded in WU.

I just tried to translate "Knowledge is power" to any Indian language and could not get anything meaningful. My conclusion is knowledge is only 'power' if it is not shared.

Asteya - Respect for the property rights of others is a key value system of our civilization. However the commercialization of invention and its use and indeed anything, does not follow a strict capitalistic model in our systems. Living a life of nishkam karma is an ideal that few can do all the time. The few who manage to perform are considered to have attained Moksha. What most do and should do is try to live up to that idea to the degree they can, at an appropriate stage of their lives.

Vidya in our systems is not a route to power, it is the route to viveka. The wise in our traditions pursue vidya to propagate not to hoard for the self. The pursuit of power itself is to "Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam". To preserve the good, to destroy the evil.

A_Gupta wrote:For those who see Americanism as the summum bonum of human existence, and Indians as irrational, superstitious primitives:
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/09/opini ... -them.html

More than one in five Republicans last year told a pollster they believed that President Obama was the anti-Christ......Two-thirds of Republicans think people can be possessed by demons.

There has been a classic interflow of race, class, religion/sect and region in the US, since its very inception. The puritanical and evangelical streak that forms the base of the Republican party think in these stark black and white terms of demons and the good guys. You hear this type of talk all the time in the US in many contexts. The fastest growing religion in the Americas is the protestant denomination with conversion of the Hispanics as its key target. Many believe it is the protestant culture that underpins US society and provides to them the cultural base for its values - on the bedrock of their religion. Many consider the protection of this culture to be the core of American exceptionalism.

ShauryaT wrote:

csaurabh wrote: My conclusion is knowledge is only 'power' if it is not shared.

Vidya in our systems is not a route to power, it is the route to viveka. The wise in our traditions pursue vidya to propagate not to hoard for the self. The pursuit of power itself is to "Paritranaya sadhunam vinashaya cha dushkritam". To preserve the good, to destroy the evil.

+1 to both of you

But the big change now is that teachers were greatly respected in the past in India. Now they are not allowed to be respectable because they cannot live by gurudakshina. They have to survive by making money and this allows incompetent teachers to thrive.

The west have given knowledge up to a level. Millions of Indians have, in the past studied in the west. I myself gained immense surgical experience in the UK. So knowledge sharing at one level has been better in the west. But advanced knowledge like special spells and astras in the Mahabharata are examples of "knowledge is power"

shiv wrote: But the big change now is that teachers were greatly respected in the past in India. Now they are not allowed to be respectable because they cannot live by gurudakshina. They have to survive by making money and this allows incompetent teachers to thrive.

The west have given knowledge up to a level. Millions of Indians have, in the past studied in the west. I myself gained immense surgical experience in the UK. So knowledge sharing at one level has been better in the west. But advanced knowledge like special spells and astras in the Mahabharata are examples of "knowledge is power"

I don't know about surgery. Then again, it is quite different if one stays there and become a citizen and become 'one of them' ( Not that this is a wrong thing to do, just my observation ).

In my last company we were doing some fairly technical, innovative stuff to develop a new product. ( It's an outsourcing company ofc. It still does 95% outsourcing stuff given by the parent company, but some new innovative projects have come up ) One of the project managers admitted to me once 'If the Germans find out what we are doing, they'll shut the project down'.

Actually, all outsourcing companies are like that. They never outsource any of their key technologies, only the boring stuff. I'm not really a conspiracy theorist but I think there's more to it than the money/business angle. Western companies do collaborate quite often with each other. Yet they would never collaborate with their own subsidiary outsourcing company.

Tata Motors gets zero technical knowledge from Corus and Land Rover. Despite the fact that Tata group owns Corus and Land Rover. The firewalls are airtight.

P.S. Special spells/weapons, assuming they are not simply made up/mythical, are not knowledge. If only knowledge was required, why would Arjun have only one Brahmastra?

csaurabh wrote: P.S. Special spells/weapons, assuming they are not simply made up/mythical, are not knowledge. If only knowledge was required, why would Arjun have only one Brahmastra?

Mythical or not I was speaking in the context of "knowledge is power"

Anyhow yours is an informative insight.

http://www.bostonglobe.com/opinion/2014 ... story.html

Here is what happens when you focus too much on what is wrong. You end up wrong and any attempt you make still end up wrong howsoever many the trials. They all yield the same stupid result and before you know it Ek jhoot ke liye sau jhoot.

Did somebody say racist?

No, no, no, C*** insists, this isn’t about race at all. “For people to think I don’t want this child because of her skin tone is just not the case,” she assured Huffington Post. And when P*** is older, she’ll understand that “the lawsuit was about a company that had to make changes and give us compensation so that we can go through counseling and learn how to love each other even more.”

Sure she will. Because parents who adore their children as a “dream come true” and wouldn’t trade them “for the world” always file wrongful-birth lawsuits. Don’t they?

It’s hard to decide which is more surreal — the race-obsessed complaint C*** filed in Cook County Circuit Court, or her after-the-fact pretense that she isn’t making an issue of her daughter’s race.

C*** wants to be paid handsomely for the “personal injuries, medical expense, pain, suffering, emotional distress, and other economic and non-economic losses” caused by P***’s birth. Those hardships include having white relatives who can be “unconsciously insensitive,” and C***’s “anxiety” at the prospect of enrolling her daughter in an all-white school. Uniontown — the Akron suburb to which C*** relocated with her partner for its good schools — she now regards as “too racially intolerant.”

That’s not all that C*** has found “stressful” about motherhood. “P*** has hair typical of an African American girl,” the lawsuit notes. “To get a decent cut, P*** must travel to a black neighborhood, far from where she lives, where she is obviously different in appearance, and not overtly welcome.”

Well. If that doesn’t merit a wrongful-birth lawsuit, what does?

Why it deserves to be here? Well that only means we are living on different planets, if you cannot just figure out the why.

But here it is, nonetheless. All through our lives we were taught and rightly so that Maiya Yashoda and Maiya Devki are same to same. That nurture is just as powerful as nature. Even going to the extent of having a Kshama yachana at the end of prayers where people invoke the mamatva of their Ishtha / Maa, by claiming to be agyani kids deserving of a parent's / mother's leniency. Eventually at the end saying Jaisa uchit hai waisa karna (do as is right).

And here is one clear example of how too much of legalistic bull can ruin ones mind. These people convince themselves that 'do as is right' implies everything before the kshama-yachana was wrong and after the Kshama-yachana would be right only if they try with a 'pure heart'. Bloody, How will things would be right after the lawsuit? And how were things wrong before that?

I mean how the hell are 330 and 380 different in this case. Was 330 a criminal with difficult genetic content. What was the reason for 380 being preferred case instead of 330. And was 330 even taken up as one of the possible choices. If not then why not? Kya gajab pagalpan hai. The mother, the father, the lawyer and the esteemed newspaper, nobody thinks fit to even consider giving answer these questions. The problem has been narrowed down to just one simple thing. Why was it not 380 when 380 was asked for?

careless mix-up: It supplied vials of sperm from Donor No. 330, when C*** had selected Donor No. 380.

Nobel Peace Prize 2014 is awarded jointly to Kailash Satyarthi and Malala Yousafzai.

habal wrote:Nobel Peace Prize 2014 is awarded jointly to Kailash Satyarthi and Malala Yousafzai.

Welcome to the new and improved version of Suzanne A Roy.