Artillery Discussion Thread

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 27 Mar 2011 20:17

I was laughing at the point where the judge said that "this is a sheer waste of public money." I guess he didn't care for the Rs. 64Cr that was allegedly paid as kickbacks because he didn't consider those "public money?"

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Mar 2011 08:41

^^ If anyone watched the "Mission Army" on NGC yesterday ( was on artillery/AD corps), which was the AD corps held missile shown hitting a decoy( it was fired from a dedicated missile carrier)?

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 29 Mar 2011 09:14

Just wanted to know if the M982 Excalibur rounds are part of the F777 deal?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Mar 2011 09:19

they are very expensive. probably not.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 29 Mar 2011 09:44

There were plans to produce the Krasnopol M rounds in OFB factories. Did they ever do that or the trials deep sixed the plans?

Gurinder P · Post by **Gurinder P** » 29 Mar 2011 12:13

Singha wrote:they are very expensive. probably not.

ramana wrote:There were plans to produce the Krasnopol M rounds in OFB factories. Did they ever do that or the trials deep sixed the plans?

I am wondering if the Excalibur and Krasnopol M will be interchangeable between Ruski, American and/or furture heavies India will be acquiring?

Also, India is known for its electronics and programming, plus with its success with ballistics in the past few years, can't DRDO make an indigenous round or perhaps team up with Israel and make guided munitions? I mean, the rounds are probably not harder to make than the ballistic missiles and they only need to add fins for course corrections and gps seekers that can be programmed to coordinated locations. Or a geeks wet dream, a UAV hovering overhead providing real time data stream to the rounds in flight.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 29 Mar 2011 13:34

^^^

I dont know about the Excaliber. But the Karsnople can be fired balisticly from any 155 MM gun as long as assets exist that will illuminate the target on the ground with lasers.

JMT

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2011 00:08

Pratyush wrote:^^^

I dont know about the Excaliber. But the Karsnople can be fired balisticly from any 155 MM gun as long as assets exist that will illuminate the target on the ground with lasers.

JMT

Wish that OFB had the license to make that shell. There are many spinoffs one can envison. For instance all those heavy mortars can be updated with impacts on mountain warfare. The unit can alos be fitted to the small 225 kg bomb.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Mar 2011 01:06

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M982_Excalibur

The above link states the 2008 costs are $85,000 per round and will eventually go down to $50,000 per round in full-scale production.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 30 Mar 2011 01:23

Wow...the Bofors FH77 BW L52 can shoot an Excalibur round 60 kms away.

http://www.baesystems.com/ProductsServi ... _Arch.html

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2011 02:27

Some advances in US and other countries

120MM GPS mortar round

The odd thing is PRC is racing to get the KrasnopolM and fabricate it under license but somehow what works all over the world becomes dud in India!

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Mar 2011 02:48

In my limited understand of artillery, GPS based rounds with CEP of less than 5m is a big step in effectiveness. If China indeed gets more accurate rounds from more number guns, well I have nothing more to say.

I mean imagine if we had rounds with that capability in Kargil, we would have had many brave sons of India with us today. The insurgents would have run down with tail between their legs. With every possibility that our artillery will be used in the mountains again, such rounds will be very effective and indeed might be a game changer. Yes it is expensive, but one shot per bunker is one hell of a capability.

Now imagine, if we are going to be at the receiving end of all this!

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 30 Mar 2011 03:09

With the terrain IA has to work with, precision ammunition should be a no-brainer. In situations like Kargil, precision guided munitions could have ended the game in days.

None of these require very high-end restrictive technology which India does not have access to. The interest shown in loitering ammunition was a good start.

But this should become an area with very high focus. The probability of fighting localized battles and wars (a la Kargil) are a lot higher than major assaults across a wide frontier. It would be wonderful if IA could have these suicide drones type of equipment where a singe precision strike literally through a window can take out fortified bunkers.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 30 Mar 2011 05:51

VikramS wrote: None of these require very high-end restrictive technology which India does not have access to.

Actually it is ... the guidance or making the shell go more top down is not an issue, but packing electronic into the shell and firing it through a cannon barrel is a huge challenge. The shells experience upto 8000Gs. Packing the electronics in such a way that it remains intact and functional during such huge stresses I heard was the biggest challenge is developing the excalibur rounds. The experimental rounds were each worth $250,000.

VikramS · Post by **VikramS** » 30 Mar 2011 06:19

indranilroy wrote:
VikramS wrote: None of these require very high-end restrictive technology which India does not have access to.
Actually it is ... the guidance or making the shell go more top down is not an issue, but packing electronic into the shell and firing it through a cannon barrel is a huge challenge. The shells experience upto 8000Gs. Packing the electronics in such a way that it remains intact and functional during such huge stresses I heard was the biggest challenge is developing the excalibur rounds. The experimental rounds were each worth $250,000.

These are mechanical design issues. They can be overcome by experimentation, hit&trial, unless they use some super-duper material which is not accessible. IMHO problems which do not require access to super-duper materials or fabrication techniques, simply boil down to will and perseverance, as long as the appropriate technological base is available.

===
http://www.aextal.com/tutorial-shock.htm

16000Gs!

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2011 08:19

Well we have a part of the problem addressed in Pinaka where the rounds do have terminal course correction; similarly the Sudarshan has successfully demonstrated that the inhouse LGB kit works so technology exists we only need to take it to the next level to integrate the same with Arty shells. Our problem is DRDO's hands are full for it is making all sorts of stuff from Bhut Jolokia bombs, high nutrient bars for soldiers to ABM systems imho what we need is individuals with lot of money and love for fireworks (say someone like Mallya) these guys can then poach some of the key minds from DRDO throw in the money and one can both design as well as produce a lot of 'dal roti' stuff like optical sights, gps kits, secured sat phones and lots of similar stuff that can be developed from COTS components. The irony is in our country GoI itself is the biggest road block in the way of private participation in the defence related R&D.

As long as DRDO remains the only R&D hub for our MIC and screwdriver entities like OFB continue to operate in 'office-office' mode we will not be able to achieve self reliance in any of the defense products which require high QC and yet need to be produced in large numbers. That's the reason why we don't have an in-house 155mm Arty gun/SPH yet, heck we don't even make small arms of required quality and in desired numbers to full-fill the requirements of our military/paramilitary.

--edited Sudarshan

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Mar 2011 09:40

^^^

The smart munitions for ballistic artilery have been under development since the 1960s and still was under limited use in 1991. The US army with its copperhead was still not making widespread use of the shell in the wars that it has fought since 1991.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2011 09:55

What kind of a logic is that ? I can say US has fought $hit; all they have done is continuous aerial bombardment of a country which had obsolete RU SAM systems ; they have not engaged in a proper war after they got their ar$e handed to them in Vietnam (and rightly so).

US does not use 'x' so does that mean even we don't use it ? For a start just google and check as to how many Arty pieces does Unkil have .

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2011 09:59

Pratyush How can you say that after reading the evolution of guided artillery in US? The expensive Copperhead gave way to Excalibur which were both laser illuminated. The standard is GPS rounds which the arty observer determines the coordinates and passes them to the battery. The object is to reduce the logistic trail. Gold standard is one target one round.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 30 Mar 2011 10:17

I did read that Excalibur needs access to US encrypted Mil Grade GPS signal to fire accurately enough , I think without those kind of signal access available to us Excalibur might just not be accurate enough or simply the US can shut those kind of signals in specific region.

negi · Post by **negi** » 30 Mar 2011 10:27

^ That's why Krasnopol shells are laser guided and then again RU wanted to setup GLONASS (it already covers 100% of RU territory)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 30 Mar 2011 10:34

on can think of a future SP platform where the 'target console operator' is getting a live feed from upto 3 sources like UAV, vehicles with TV/thermals of target area, satellite feed.....
[a] he visually locates that targets, talking by secure radio to fwd observers if needed
he uses the touchscreen or mouse to continuously 'mark' a series of targets noting the rounds to be fire on each
[c] system takes the GPS co-ordinates from the map and fees that into weapon aiming computer, with #rounds
[d] automatic loader feeds in the rounds from magazine
[e] gun steadily fires DUMB rounds at these static targets
[f] for special high value targets, the machine feeds in the image into IIR seeker onboard smart shell which goes terminal active using a radar altimeter
[g] a command operator can enslave a battery of guns to his target designation and a load distributor makes sure all guns get a share of targets to hit, keeping them all cool and ready

cheap. decisive. smart.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 30 Mar 2011 10:35

ramana wrote:Pratyush How can you say that after reading the evolution of guided artillery in US? The expensive Copperhead gave way to Excalibur which were both laser illuminated. The standard is GPS rounds which the arty observer determines the coordinates and passes them to the battery. The object is to reduce the logistic trail. Gold standard is one target one round.

Ramana,

The Copper head was laser guided round. The excaliber has a GPS only guidence. The other smart 155 mm round is the SADRAM that is cargo shell equiped with SFMs to attack an armoured coloum in the open, it was ment to deal with the USSR tank armada that would be rampaging accross the plains of Europe in WW3. The end of the cold was removed the need for SADRAM.

Having said so the Copperhead was stated to have a range of only 6 kms (My read of Asian Military review in the late 1990s). In this way the Copperhead is inferior to the Karsnopel M in terms of range. Excalibur was still under testing as of 2006-07. This was when the major groung combat operations in Iraq were over. About, Afghanistan, I dont know if it is under utiliasation or not.

Added latter.

The purpose of Smart shell is one round one target. Very use full if you want to play sniper 30 kms away. With GPS as well as Laser, it works well against targets that are known.

Having said so, at one level I am unable to justify the need for guided shells in the plains and areas where logistics are easy. In mountain regions where every kilo of weight is woth pure gold. Guided shells are a must. Before I continue, I must say then it is my reason only and I dont know if the IA feels this way as well or not.

The balistic artilery is quite accurate in placing shells at paricular coordinates, if the range and firing tabels are well known. It is effected by factors such as wind and temperatures. But these can be compensated for. The modern 155 mm piece always knows where it is. It knows where it is, then it can place an ordinery shell if, it know where the shell needs to reach.

It may need 3 or 4 shells to do the job but it can do it.

In the Indian context one shell costing 50000 $ to do a job is too expensive. If the same job can be done by 5 shells costing 1000$s each.

But in the mountain regions, there may be only 1 shell and it needs to hit accurately. Then let it be guided.

Just my confused 2 bits.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 30 Mar 2011 18:17

I was thinking of mountains only. And IAs trials in Kargil show they also think the same.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 31 Mar 2011 04:11

Mission Army Episode 5.

In this episode of Mission Army, Nat Geo takes the viewer into the mind of a gunner - the men with the big guns and a big heart! The Artillery played a vital role in the Kargil war of 1999. Nat Geo profiles some of the latest and modern artillery combat systems in the Indian Army. Our Final 5 train to be Observation Post Officers and get to fire the 105 mm field guns. They also get to guide the Bofors fire as OP officers -- an opportunity of a lifetime!

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 28 Apr 2011 20:02

From Livefist
FLASH! BAE-Bofors Pulls Out Of Indian 155mm Gun Procurement Effort

Just received this statement from BAE Systems:

While we are certain that the FH-77B05 is the most capable 52 calibre Towed Gun available, and it was specifically designed for and demonstrated to meet the Indian Army's requirements as stated in previous RFPs, BAE Systems has, after very careful consideration, come to the conclusion that the company will not submit a proposal. The Ministry of Defence has been informed. This conclusion was reached following a detailed assessment of the new RFP. We found that:

* The new RFP includes technical and performance relaxations that allow less capable weapon systems to enter the competition.
* This significantly reduces the competitive advantage FH-77B05 derives from its greater capability. [The FH-77B05 was optimised for the more taxing requirements of the previous RFPs]
* Therefore, the decision not to bid is a commercial one based on the high investment costs required to participate in a complex artillery competition of this nature, where the win probability has been reduced.

More shortly.

RoyG · Post by **RoyG** » 28 Apr 2011 20:43

^^What a pathetic situation.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 28 Apr 2011 21:13

This basically means that with all the scam hitting the news wave, G family will ensure anything but Bofors comes into the IA service. Expect the Pegasus to make the cut this time.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Apr 2011 21:21

but I thought pegasus maker ST kinetics was blacklisted already?
denel is blacklisted
M777 is in trouble too

there is nobody left really apart from KMW

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 28 Apr 2011 21:25

Now watch them blacklist that too! Next time a tender is put out for howitzers, the companies should send scale howitzer models to the MoD and tell them to take a long walk off a short pier! This is pathetic indeed.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Apr 2011 21:26

Only DRDL maal will be ready in about two years

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 28 Apr 2011 21:28

disappointing news!!! a lot is happening behind the curtains.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 28 Apr 2011 21:35

The KMW solution is blacklisted as well as it is mated to the South African hull by Daneal. Since Daneal is blacklisted, KMW solution is blacklisted by default. The only way it can see service with IA now will be to mate it with Arjun Hull. But IA may not be interested in KMW turret & Arjun hull solution.

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 28 Apr 2011 21:39

But IA may not be interested in KMW turret & Arjun hull solution.

They will fight with what they have

Boreas · Post by **Boreas** » 28 Apr 2011 21:49

suryag wrote:
But IA may not be interested in KMW turret & Arjun hull solution.
They will fight with what they have

I'm afraid they have to fight with 'RFIs' and 'Tenders' then... that is what they have!

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 29 Apr 2011 04:22

We need is to start list of all individuals that are responsible for this situations.. If public servants are involved that results in this situations...we need to list their names down and track it till they are brought to Justice.

It is fair and balanced to track 2 sides of the story ...Company is blacklisted for shaddy practice...what about the the guys on the receiving end. Should'nt all of India know who these traitors are and what is being done to them.

Blacklisting companies only hurts the IA. How about these corrupt worthless individual also get a good chuck of the pain and shame.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 29 Apr 2011 04:34

This black listing is done mainly based on allegations. Who bribed whom we do not know. So the best way to kick the competetion is to create some serious allegations and win. Bofors will never get the deal. I think in one way it is also justified considaring the bribes they paid to SG family.

Only thing IA is going to get will come from local PSU. Wait and see after a couple of this so called bidding rounds.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 29 Apr 2011 04:36

Didnt the DRDO(?) head say recently that they could take a crack at making a new 155mm gun if the IA wants one? Why doesnt the IA think of getting DRDO to make one irrespective of whether the government can get its house in order and get one from overseas? Can the IA do that now given the years wasted in getting one?

Sunilchurchill · Post by **Sunilchurchill** » 29 Apr 2011 04:45

Narayana Rao wrote:This black listing is done mainly based on allegations. Who bribed whom we do not know. So the best way to kick the competetion is to create some serious allegations and win. Bofors will never get the deal. I think in one way it is also justified considaring the bribes they paid to SG family.

Only thing IA is going to get will come from local PSU. Wait and see after a couple of this so called bidding rounds.

So lets track/list all the folks who make these allegations...once public scrutiny is on them...than at least fake allegations will be come to halt or atleast someone will be accountable... the one major flaw in this whole mess is that there is no accountability...the focus is only on the companies but not folks who are truly guilty of accepting bribes ( in one form or another) or make false allegations.

There has to be a Grassroots effort to stop this issue...and it is lacking...

In this day and age where we have all the spotlight on the raja, kalmadi, etc. A "national register of Shame" should be started by the media...

Hobbes · Post by **Hobbes** » 29 Apr 2011 07:08

Any news on whether the ARDE 155 mm gun project ever got off the ground, apart from the sole IDRW report?