Should we discontinue EVMs?

[Rahul Mehta]

Currently, EVMs are acceptable only to the Congress, not to any other party in India.

sanjaychoudhry,

BJP has not opposed EVMs in reality. They are only making noises. Eventually, they will sell out in favor of EVMs. If BJP is opposing EVMs, they can simply put 65 candidates in by-elections that are coming next month. (eg there are 7 assembly by-elections in Gujarat in Sep 1st week). But they are NOT doing this at all. Why?

If you are anti-EVM, pls put your eggs in building mass movement by DIRECTLY approaching citizens and also grass roots workers. The leaders of BJP etc will sell out and eventually become pro-EVM. Because those who have rigged EVMs are larger than Congress. You know who they are, and they have enough hold over BJP leaders too.

So if you are anti-EVM, pls put your eggs in building mass movement by DIRECTLY approaching citizens and also grass roots workers.

[vera_k]

Haven't you heard the theory of "All Politicians Are To Blame"? What is to stop the parties from colluding to keep the status quo going?

Well, we got to live with that. IMK there is no functional democracy exists on earth without multiple parties.

We vote parties. The legislature and government are run based on party policy. It is all open and kosher. If we pretend that it is not so, that would be hypocrisy.

Don't disagree that parties are a necessary evil. My point was that a commission based approach to certifying EVMs can not accomodate all divergent views given the presence of Independent candidates. We are not amending the constitution to ban Independents are we now?

[Rahul Mehta]

Dear EVM-experts,

Some documents say that CU records ALL keystrokes.

How are they downloaded later? Does CU have port to get that information? Or it is obtained from same port that connects to BU? Also, arent existing CU compatible with Totalizers? The Totalizers were not used this time, but weren't CUs made to work with them? So which port connects to Totalizer?

[Dileep]

The QA is not involved. The QA is only testing the actual code and not the tempered code. The BEL chief takes the actual code and gives to 2-3 private expert who write the tempered code. So QA did not verify/test or see the tempered code at all. Also, in Dec-2008, the 100,000 EVMs were made by BEL only and present discussion is mainly around those EVMs. So thye other PSU is out of pix for the time being.

Once again you are back to building on thin air. For your proposal to work, the following people must co operate.

1. CEO of BEL.
2. Director of Bangalore complex
3. GM of R&D
4. Head of software development unit
5. Project manager of EVM software
6. Team leader of software development
8. GM of Commercial products manufacturing
9. Materials manager
10. Manager, Inward stores
11. Purchase officer
12. Store keeper, inward stores
13. Manager, IQC
14. QC Engineer
15. QC Inspector, at least one.
16. Manager, Production
17. Manager, testing group
18. Shift engineer, testing
19. Operator, testing, at least one.
20. Manager, finished goods store
21. Manager, order fulfilment
22. Store keeper, finished goods
23. Despatcher, finish goods
24. Supervisor, packing & shipping group

And all these, not raising suspicion of the rest of the team, and just to produce the 'bad' EVMs.

Trivial, in RahulWorld

Hitachi is invovled because the official request will have untempered code while the unofficial request from BEL CEO will be to put the tempered code sent separately.

Sure, Hitachi CEO, who sits in the glass cabin near the front office, walks into the plant with a pen drive in hand. He beacons to the plant supervisor and whispers "Hiroyuki San, you are running that BEL chip today, right? I got this program from them this morning. Use this for the run".

Hiroyuki bows, says "Kashikomarimashita, Hitachi San" and leaves. CEO mutters "Arigato Mosemosu" and walks back to his cabin.

Rahul Mehta, the overlord, watches from above and smile knowingly!

No one has poked holes. Dileep etc have merely claimed that BEL CEO will never sell out, Hitachi CEO will not sell out and Chawala will not sell out.

I NEVER said that. What I said that there are too many people involved, and the system will prevent them from doing anything without anyone else knowing and blowing their cover.

No assumption is made on anyone's honsety.

IOW, they have only claimed that tempered code can never ever get into EVM factory in BEL/Hitachi as some law of physics would stop them.

When did laws of physics begun to bother you, oh, almighty "The Mehta"?

I challenge you to go in public, not in some vague terms like "It can be done" as you did in your ad. Specify how exactly it will be done, as in your own words:

The BEL chief takes the actual code and gives to 2-3 private expert who write the tempered code. So QA did not verify/test or see the tempered code at all. Also, in Dec-2008, the 100,000 EVMs were made by BEL only and present discussion is mainly around those EVMs. So thye other PSU is out of pix for the time being.

Hitachi is invovled because the official request will have untempered code while the unofficial request from BEL CEO will be to put the tempered code sent separately.

Can you publish this allegation, and back it up?

[Dileep]

The stamping machine or stiocker has COUNTER which increases only once in 20 seconds.How will criminal increase counter?

It is a mechanical machine. If it is a spring timer, all you need to do is to put a lever into the timer to move the triger. If it is electronic, just disconnect the electrical control and connect it to another signal.

So if ballots in box and counter mismatch by say over 1% and 10 votes, there is automatic repoll. So booth capturer looses.

Counters can be set. Ballots can be counted and stuffed. there are lots of ways to subvert it.

Come to point. The EVM add NOTHING except 20 second delay. If criminal can hijack booth, he can also press the button that PO is supposed to press.

EVM adds a lot than the 20 seconds. It makes it impossible to byepass the 20 seconds delay, unlike any mecahnical machine. It also provides only one way to register the vote, ie a key press. Also the PO can press the close button any time to close the poll.

And add all the logistical advantages that EVMs offer.

There is no comparison.

[Dileep]

BJP has not opposed EVMs in reality. They are only making noises. Eventually, they will sell out in favor of EVMs. If BJP is opposing EVMs, they can simply put 65 candidates in by-elections that are coming next month. (eg there are 7 assembly by-elections in Gujarat in Sep 1st week). But they are NOT doing this at all. Why?

Why, because they KNOW that there is no real substance in the argument. There will be real technical experts among them, who would have looked at everything possible, including the systems and documents at BEL, and concluded that they are indeed unriggable.

Otherwise why BJP should keep quiet? If they had an iota of a "lead", that itself is a big stick to hit Congress. They don't, because they haven't.

OR, are you alleging that BJP is also a part of the conspiracy?

If you are anti-EVM, pls put your eggs in building mass movement by DIRECTLY approaching citizens and also grass roots workers.

IOW, support "The Mehta".

The leaders of BJP etc will sell out and eventually become pro-EVM. Because those who have rigged EVMs are larger than Congress. You know who they are, and they have enough hold over BJP leaders too.

So if you are anti-EVM, pls put your eggs in building mass movement by DIRECTLY approaching citizens and also grass roots workers.

Hmm, if there is a Mogambo who can control Congress, BJP, the flavours of JanataX, Tam parties, Communists, and all parties except The Mehta party, and it is controlling everything, I say "Hail Mogambo"!!

[Dileep]

Don't disagree that parties are a necessary evil. My point was that a commission based approach to certifying EVMs can not accomodate all divergent views given the presence of Independent candidates. We are not amending the constitution to ban Independents are we now?

Vera, the real democracy was only in Rome, where the citizens took part at the forum. What we have is the 'majority rule'.

The 'ban on independent' is rhetoric. EVERY policy of the collective is made by the majority, and whether you like it or not, parties hold the majority, so taking the parties into confidence is one way to do it.

[Dileep]

Dear EVM-experts,

Some documents say that CU records ALL keystrokes.

How are they downloaded later? Does CU have port to get that information? Or it is obtained from same port that connects to BU? Also, arent existing CU compatible with Totalizers? The Totalizers were not used this time, but weren't CUs made to work with them? So which port connects to Totalizer?

I don't have any documentation available on this.

The BU ports will not be suitable for data transfer, so if totalizers are used, there should be a separate port for that. The available user manuals and pictures do not show such a port. So, I am not sure if the current CUs are compatible with the totalizers.

There is no information on the keylog either, other than the claims in the press releases.

[Rahul Mehta]

It is a mechanical machine. If it is a spring timer, all you need to do is to put a lever into the timer to move the triger. If it is electronic, just disconnect the electrical control and connect it to another signal.

The sticker printer I described is electronic-mechanical machine. It has a button, when pressed prints 2 stickers with same random numbers and with 20 second delay. Now a criminal can print duplicate sticker, but how can that criminal change the counter inside the machine? And how will he put the random numbers in the memory of the machine?

Counters can be set. Ballots can be counted and stuffed. there are lots of ways to subvert it.

How can a counter INSIDE a machine be changed without actually breaking the machine and tearing apart the circuit? And that would only break the machine, wont change the counter. The counter is memory or printer and displayed on cheap LED display. It is not some mechanical counter.

----

1. CEO of BEL.
2. Director of Bangalore complex
3. GM of R&D
4. Head of software development unit
5. Project manager of EVM software
6. Team leader of software development
8. GM of Commercial products manufacturing
9. Materials manager
10. Manager, Inward stores
11. Purchase officer
12. Store keeper, inward stores
13. Manager, IQC
14. QC Engineer
15. QC Inspector, at least one.
16. Manager, Production
17. Manager, testing group
18. Shift engineer, testing
19. Operator, testing, at least one.
20. Manager, finished goods store
21. Manager, order fulfilment
22. Store keeper, finished goods
23. Despatcher, finish goods
24. Supervisor, packing & shipping group

Only 3 of the above 24 people in bold need to be bribed.

And in addition, the person in-charge of "random selection" of the chip has to be bribed to ensured that he selects the good chips only and not the bad one for internal gate level examination of chip and ROM. As per functional testing, it is non-issue. The functional testing guys will not discover the module-5 trojans or "make second guy first" trojan.

If you want full description of whom to rig, give complete flow chart as actually used by BEL to manufacture EVMs describing number of persons at each stage. Based on the flow chart as used by BEL, I can tell you how by picking mere 10 persons and no more, I can get tempered code inside chip without detection.

------

Making tempered code is done outside India. And putting tempered code inside chip and tempered microcode inside chip is the problem of code writer and Hitachi CEO. For a price, he will get it done. He is not stupid person that he would turn down direct request to biggies in India, US etc. In fact, we dont even know if the chip was made in Hitachi fab or some fab owned by US Military, and then final shipment was done from Hitachi.

I would focus on Indian part of operation. The rest can be taken by care by people outside India who want to help Sonia, Congress, MMS etc.

[ArmenT]

You know what will settle this argument once and for all??

1. Take an EVM machine from one of those areas that was supposed to be controversial. This can be determined by the serial #, since the EC kept track of which machine was sent where
2. Invite all the party candidates to come over and in their presence, punch in as many votes as were polled.
3. Count the results in the end.
4. Problem solved.

That will settle one way or another all these "tempering" allegations and RM's trojan theory.

Better still, make the candidates making the allegations pay $10,000 each for this test. If proved correct on their allegations, they can get their money back and dismiss the EC officials. If proved wrong, they lose the $10,000 and have to build a well or a new school building in one of the disadvantaged villages of the state.

[harbans]

^^ Good point! If the source code was tampered as RM ji says then that is enough to prove that rigging has taken place. Everyone can verify the tamper proof seals, and confirm that it is the same machine where the allegation of rigging is taken place with the same source code inside.

[Dileep]

It should be naivete to believe that RM would agree to that. His 'temper' logic is use once only, you see? And the other logics are "field activated" onlee.

You.... Can't...... Win!!!!

[Dileep]

The sticker printer I described is electronic-mechanical machine. It has a button, when pressed prints 2 stickers with same random numbers and with 20 second delay. Now a criminal can print duplicate sticker, but how can that criminal change the counter inside the machine? And how will he put the random numbers in the memory of the machine?

Counters can be set. Ballots can be counted and stuffed. there are lots of ways to subvert it.

How can a counter INSIDE a machine be changed without actually breaking the machine and tearing apart the circuit? And that would only break the machine, wont change the counter. The counter is memory or printer and displayed on cheap LED display. It is not some mechanical counter.

Now you are a 'counter bhagat'! Yeah right!!

Every argument you have posed against the EVM stands against the printer device as well. When it comes to machines, you tend to be biased towards the ones you proposed and the ones others proposed.

Only 3 of the above 24 people in bold need to be bribed.

I don't know about bribe, but you need the active participation of ALL those people to pull off what you allege. The top guys have no direct access to the lower level people, so you have to co-opt their bosses as well. There is no way around it.

And in addition, the person in-charge of "random selection" of the chip has to be bribed to ensured that he selects the good chips only and not the bad one for internal gate level examination of chip and ROM.

The chips come in lots, packaged by the fabrication line. So, one entire lot of 40,000 chips will come together, and at the same time, there will not be any 'good chips' in the IQC. So, you need co-operation from the entire chain of operation to pull this off.

Also, since lockbits are set at BEL, 100% of the units gets ROM verified, so you need those people also on board.

If you want full description of whom to rig, give complete flow chart as actually used by BEL to manufacture EVMs describing number of persons at each stage. Based on the flow chart as used by BEL, I can tell you how by picking mere 10 persons and no more, I can get tempered code inside chip without detection.

That is a tall claim. You know very well that none of us have the actual system. I can provide a reference system, but then you will weasel out saying it is not actual.

Nice strategy onlee.

Making tempered code is done outside India. And putting tempered code inside chip and tempered microcode inside chip is the problem of code writer and Hitachi CEO. For a price, he will get it done. He is not stupid person that he would turn down direct request to biggies in India, US etc. In fact, we dont even know if the chip was made in Hitachi fab or some fab owned by US Military, and then final shipment was done from Hitachi.

I would focus on Indian part of operation. The rest can be taken by care by people outside India who want to help Sonia, Congress, MMS etc.

OK, you are going to come with some cock-a-mamie scheme like the Hitachi San walking into the plant meeting Hiroyuki San. Everything is trivial onlee in RahulWorld.

OK, let us focus on the Indian part of operation. Are you willing to debate on a representative system?

[Rahul Mehta]

You know what will settle this argument once and for all??

1. Take an EVM machine from one of those areas that was supposed to be controversial. This can be determined by the serial #, since the EC kept track of which machine was sent where

And where do I get the Supreme Court order necessary to touch the said EVM?

----

2. Invite all the party candidates to come over and in their presence, punch in as many votes as were polled.

If I were to write the rigged code, I would write it in a way that rigging will happen ONLY once in entire life time of the machine. How? I would need some flash memory or whatever. But rig once only when nVotes > 300 and machine has been on for over 7 hours. And never again.

-----

Better still, make the candidates making the allegations pay $10,000 each for this test. If proved correct on their allegations, they can get their money back and dismiss the EC officials. If proved wrong, they lose the $10,000 and have to build a well or a new school building in one of the disadvantaged villages of the state.

In the proposal I made, candidates should be allowed to buy ANY EVMs for say Rs 12000, some 20% more than cost. Surprise !! Dileep et al oppose this proposal and so does EC. Guess why.

[Tanaji]

In the proposal I made, candidates should be allowed to buy ANY EVMs for say Rs 12000, some 20% more than cost. Surprise !! Dileep et al oppose this proposal and so does EC. Guess why.

Because worthies like you will write a piece of firmware that does whatever you want it to and then claim that they have "hacked" the EVM and EC is using compromised machines because they can upload that firmware in their version of the machine.

[Rahul Mehta]

Now you are a 'counter bhagat'! Yeah right!!

The very first post where I spoke about stamper (and later sticker printer) had electronic counter inside it. It was never a "mechanical only" stamper.

Every argument you have posed against the EVM stands against the printer device as well. When it comes to machines, you tend to be biased towards the ones you proposed and the ones others proposed.

The sticker printer or stamper are NOT storing votes. They are only storing count and serial numbers, and printing stickers for cross reference. And the actual vote is on the ballot paper. So to steal the votes, you need to replace ballot papers inside ballots boxes in the rooms scattered over 5000-10000 different locations all over India. This cannot be done using 10-20 people or even 100 people. Basically, the sticker printer only create 20 second delay, they dont store votes.

I don't know about bribe, but you need the active participation of ALL those people to pull off what you allege. The top guys have no direct access to the lower level people, so you have to co-opt their bosses as well. There is no way around it.

Only one "lower/middle" level guy is needed - the guy who selected "random" sample of chips. Rest are not involved.

The chips come in lots, packaged by the fabrication line. So, one entire lot of 40,000 chips will come together, and at the same time, there will not be any 'good chips' in the IQC. So, you need co-operation from the entire chain of operation to pull this off.

The 100,000 chips are coming in 5 lots of 20,000 each. In each lot, some 2% chips are good and rest are tempered. The person in-charge of electing chips has to select from those 2%. The chip tempering is done in Hitachi. That is outside India and no one in BEL except top 3 guys need to know.

----

Also, since lockbits are set at BEL, 100% of the units gets ROM verified, so you need those people also on board.

Thats your claim. There is NO proof that BEL was actually looking at ROM code in every chip. And if this is the case, then one more guy only, the team lead in BEL needs to be managed. He has to encode the trojan as random bytes which are used to fill the empty portion of the ROM. The decoding logic for this will be in the microcode of the chip.

------------

OK, let us focus on the Indian part of operation. Are you willing to debate on a representative system?

Only if you give complete personnel count, and approx salary of each person involved. Because BEL claims that EVMs cost less than Rs 10000 each. You cant give a process that makes EVM twice expensive as that cannot be the process that BEL used. IOW, your process must be "BEL like process" not some fancy process that US DoD uses.

Pls put the "sample" EVM manufacturing process steps here or a separate website. Once you have posted the full process will personnel count and approx salaries of each, I will show which 10 people can be convinced to put tempered code in EVM and how.

[Pranav]

It's shocking how the EC is getting more and more brazen in its dishonesty. The claim that paper ballots or a paper trail compromise secrecy is complete nonsense. We have been using paper ballots in India for decades. In fact, the secrecy of the ballot is compromised with the time-stamp that the EVMs record.

Now, EC has rejected the proposal to have paper printouts of ballots or any kind of paper trail to cross check the results of EVMs. Things have really begun to stink the way these EC jokers -- all paid Congress courtiers -- are trying to put a veil of secrecy over their working.

Mumbai, Aug 13 (PTI) In the backdrop of allegations by certain political parties that Electronic Voting Machines (EVMs) could be hacked, the Election Commission today said EVMs were and are tamper proof.

"In the view of the Election Commission, EVMs were and are tamper proof. Nobody has been able to demonstrate that they can be tampered with," Chief Election Commissioner Naveen Chawla told reporters here.

On the demand by some parties for paper printouts of ballots, Chawla said "we believe a paper trail would foil the essence of democracy, which is secrecy of individual ballot, and it would be seriously compromised."

"The whole purpose of democracy is that individuals' preference must be secret and it is the whole pillar of free, fair and transparent election process," he said.
http://www.ptinews.com/news/228283_EVMs ... Commission

So now the demand to have any kind of paper trail of EVMs has been declared unconstitutional!

[Rahul Mehta]

Rahul Mehta:

In the proposal I made, candidates should be allowed to buy ANY EVMs for say Rs 12000, some 20% more than cost. Surprise !! Dileep et al oppose this proposal and so does EC. Guess why.

Tanaji: Because worthies like you will write a piece of firmware that does whatever you want it to and then claim that they have "hacked" the EVM and EC is using compromised machines because they can upload that firmware in their version of the machine.

It is OPT or masked ROM. So no one can upload a new firmware.

[Dileep]

Only one "lower/middle" level guy is needed - the guy who selected "random" sample of chips. Rest are not involved.

OK, let us go step by step.

1. How exactly will the GM get the source code?
2. The random samples are selected by either the IQC inspector himself, or the store keeper. How will he GM access him without going through his superiors?

The 100,000 chips are coming in 5 lots of 20,000 each. In each lot, some 2% chips are good and rest are tempered.

Chip manufacturing doesn't work like that. The chips are packaged into special trays by the machines itself. The trays are then vacuum sealed in antistatic bags. The bag seals need to be intact till receipt and storage of the chips. So, adding 2% good chips is not possible.

Also, how would the person know which chip is good and which chip is bad? They are all supposed to have the same legend printed, otherwise they will raise flag in production.

Thats your claim. There is NO proof that BEL was actually looking at ROM code in every chip. And if this is the case, then one more guy only, the team lead in BEL needs to be managed. He has to encode the trojan as random bytes which are used to fill the empty portion of the ROM. The decoding logic for this will be in the microcode of the chip.

One guy is not handling code. The entire team is. So, you need to compromise the entire team.

Only if you give complete personnel count, and approx salary of each person involved. Because BEL claims that EVMs cost less than Rs 10000 each. You cant give a process that makes EVM twice expensive as that cannot be the process that BEL used. IOW, your process must be "BEL like process" not some fancy process that US DoD uses.

The process will be something my company would have established, if they manufactured EVMs. Nothing more.

Pls put the "sample" EVM manufacturing process steps here or a separate website. Once you have posted the full process will personnel count and approx salaries of each, I will show which 10 people can be convinced to put tempered code in EVM and how.

Deal!!

[ArmenT]

Rahul Mehta:

In the proposal I made, candidates should be allowed to buy ANY EVMs for say Rs 12000, some 20% more than cost. Surprise !! Dileep et al oppose this proposal and so does EC. Guess why.

Tanaji: Because worthies like you will write a piece of firmware that does whatever you want it to and then claim that they have "hacked" the EVM and EC is using compromised machines because they can upload that firmware in their version of the machine.

It is OPT or masked ROM. So no one can upload a new firmware.

And it isn't possible to go at it with a soldering iron, take out the old ROM and replace it with a new EPROM chip programmed by you? That's already been done by one chap who claimed loudly in public for a while that EVM was vulnerable and then suddenly withdrew his allegations when the EC wanted a closer look at his version of an EVM.

[harbans]

I must say, this is possibly one of the finest EVM pro-against discussions one can locate on the web, and honestly have learnt a lot from it. Even though the answers do speak for themselves i'd credit RM ji for 'bringing them on'.

[ArmenT]

You know what will settle this argument once and for all??

1. Take an EVM machine from one of those areas that was supposed to be controversial. This can be determined by the serial #, since the EC kept track of which machine was sent where

And where do I get the Supreme Court order necessary to touch the said EVM?

Take out a newspaper ad or organize a protest march or something. You're the big politician here, aren't you. Afraid of suggesting something that will settle the controversy easily?

2. Invite all the party candidates to come over and in their presence, punch in as many votes as were polled.

If I were to write the rigged code, I would write it in a way that rigging will happen ONLY once in entire life time of the machine. How? I would need some flash memory or whatever. But rig once only when nVotes > 300 and machine has been on for over 7 hours. And never again.

Machine doesn't have flash memory, it is re-used in different elections, so your theory is out. Besides you are allowed to verify the ROM as part of the deal. What now?

Better still, make the candidates making the allegations pay $10,000 each for this test. If proved correct on their allegations, they can get their money back and dismiss the EC officials. If proved wrong, they lose the $10,000 and have to build a well or a new school building in one of the disadvantaged villages of the state.

In the proposal I made, candidates should be allowed to buy ANY EVMs for say Rs 12000, some 20% more than cost. Surprise !! Dileep et al oppose this proposal and so does EC. Guess why.

It is real easy for chaps to make baseless allegations (e.g.) You persist on the radio antenna theory in your newspaper ad and the PDF on your website, DESPITE being shown it is impossible and that the technology that you proposed doesn't currently exist and won't exist for quite a few years and if you manage to actually produce what you proposed in the PDF, semiconductor companies around the world will fight to buy your technology breakthrough. Yet you persist in printing falsehoods on your website and haven't yet retracted or made changes to the PDF to take out the impossible stuff.

It takes a bit more time and effort for the EC to prove that your allegations may be incorrect. There's already been a case of one chap who made his own version of the EVM and publicly claimed he found vulnerabilities, until the EC asked to take a closer look at his EVM and he admitted that he'd tampered with it himself and withdrew his allegations. How do the EC know you won't pull the same stunt yourself.

Now with $10,000 on the line, there's more of a chance of you and other people making allegations of losing money if you are proved wrong. Rs. 12,000 won't put a dent on your wallet, but $10,000 will make at least a small one. Besides I'm only thinking of your best interests in mind. If you build a small well or school in a remote village, the villagers will think that Rahul Mehta is a politician who keeps his word, unlike the big parties who all talk and do nothing. They will unanimously vote for you in the next election. A win for the neglected villagers who get new facilities and a big win for you.

[Dileep]

OK, here is the web link: http://sites.google.com/site/evmproc/

The data is for a plant manufacturing 30,000 EVMS a month, running 3 shifts continuously. Shift staffing is calculated by the industrial norms, allowing weekly off, compensatory off, leave etc. This is a generic plant, so when not making EVMs, they can make pretty much anything.

All information are based on the real life experience only. The salary amounts are guesstimates, but as it is only 3% of the sales, so we got a lot of margins there. I also haven't added administrative overheads, because they do not matter for our discussion. (And of course I am wasting good professional work, worth good money if done as a consultant)

[Rahul Mehta]

Take out a newspaper ad or organize a protest march or something. You're the big politician here, aren't you. Afraid of suggesting something that will settle the controversy easily?

I am translating article in Gujarati and plan to distribute 1000s of copies and force PM to allow us commons to register YesNo on laws. If that happens, 37 cr of us commons may (or may not) register YesNo on section 56A of People's Representation Act. This section allowed EC to use EVMs. If 37 cr of us commons register No on this section, EVM goes. Otherwise, I will drop my campaign. I dont want to approach SCjs as they are mostly corrupt people.

Machine doesn't have flash memory, it is re-used in different elections, so your theory is out. Besides you are allowed to verify the ROM as part of the deal. What now?

IIRC, EVM has flash memory to store voting data for 2 years. And if the trojan is in microcode, I need gate level design of chip to ensure that chip has same layout as in the design. Plus, there can be many ways to store one bit somewhere on chip or the PCB. If that can be done, machine can be made to work as "cheat once only".

Better still, make the candidates making the allegations pay $10,000 each for this test. ....

EVM is costing Rs 10000. Asking for 50 times the price is dishonest attempt to block fair investigation. Rs 12000 is fair price.

----

It is real easy for chaps to make baseless allegations (e.g.) You persist on the radio antenna theory in your newspaper ad and the PDF on your website, DESPITE being shown it is impossible and that the technology that you proposed doesn't currently exist and won't exist for quite a few years and if you manage to actually produce what you proposed in the PDF, semiconductor companies around the world will fight to buy your technology breakthrough. Yet you persist in printing falsehoods on your website and haven't yet retracted or made changes to the PDF to take out the impossible stuff.

It is possible to make RECEIVE only circuit, that would need a very small antenna in PCB (outside chip).

It takes a bit more time and effort for the EC to prove that your allegations may be incorrect. There's already been a case of one chap who made his own version of the EVM and publicly claimed he found vulnerabilities, until the EC asked to take a closer look at his EVM and he admitted that he'd tampered with it himself and withdrew his allegations. How do the EC know you won't pull the same stunt yourself.

I am not asking EC to prove anything. They may, they need not. It is for citizens to decide and they will register No on Section 56A of PRA if the believe that EVMs are unreliable. If the 37 cr commons decide not to register No on Section 56A of PRA, I will drop my anti-EVM campaign.

[Tanaji]

If that happens, 37 cr of us commons may (or may not) register YesNo on section 56A of People's Representation Act.

1. You are not a commons by any stretch of definition. You are just a wannabe neta
2. Forget 37 crore, you wont get 3700 signatures

[Dileep]

I am translating article in Gujarati and plan to distribute 1000s of copies and force PM to allow us commons to register YesNo on laws.

That will be excessive force, considering the target. Maybe you should consider reducing the number of copies.

If that happens, 37 cr of us commons may (or may not) register YesNo on section 56A of People's Representation Act. This section allowed EC to use EVMs. If 37 cr of us commons register No on this section, EVM goes. Otherwise, I will drop my campaign. I dont want to approach SCjs as they are mostly corrupt people.

By all means. Here is the deal.

If you are successful in your campaign to first implement the Yes/No system, and then you place a Yes/No question for vote, I promise you to go to the village office and register No on the question (ie in support of you, to scrap EVMs). That is despite my opposition to the Yes/No scam, and support to the EVM, because your Bhageeratha'esq effort merits appreciation.

Till that time, I would vehemently oppose the Yes/No scam, and support EVMs.

IIRC, EVM has flash memory to store voting data for 2 years. And if the trojan is in microcode, I need gate level design of chip to ensure that chip has same layout as in the design. Plus, there can be many ways to store one bit somewhere on chip or the PCB. If that can be done, machine can be made to work as "cheat once only".

Of course, if you get access enough to manipulate the counts, you can place a bit on the flash.

It is possible to make RECEIVE only circuit, that would need a very small antenna in PCB (outside chip).

It is IMPOSSIBLE to fabricate a viable radio on the same chip as a microcontroller, because of semiconductor fabrication limitations. You will have to add the receiver externally.

Meanwhile, I did my part. I posted the manufacturing process with the necessary details on a website. Now, do your part please.

[Raja Bose]

It is possible to make RECEIVE only circuit, that would need a very small antenna in PCB (outside chip).

Your claiming it to be possible doesn't make it possible - your radio theory has been debunked on this thread multiple times. There are limits to hardware fabrication. That way I can claim that I can fly faster than the speed of light - that doesn't mean its true.

[Raja Bose]

If the 37 cr commons decide not to register No on Section 56A of PRA, I will drop my anti-EVM campaign.

Great! When is the big day when we might witness this? BTW don't try to resort to sneaky statistics like claiming that since xx people in YY mohalla in Ahmedabad, Gujarat say they will vote NO hence, this implies by induction that 37 cr commons will vote NO, if given a chance. 37 cr means 37 cr unique individuals, nothing less!

[Dileep]

If RM does a downhill skii, and decides to hide behind the Yes/No scam, our BRF Oldie dreams would be toast

Then I will have no choice but to start writing fiction in the scenarios thread.

Or maybe RB and I should co-conspire and make an "Embedded Systems Technology" thread and split hairs on some trivial issue that no one else cares.

[Raja Bose]

I know of atleast 3 guys who used to post here who had two IDs on BRF and would have arguments with themselves via their 2 IDs

Dont worry - we have guns, neta-babu etc. threads too but EVM thread definitely amar rahe!

[ArmenT]

Better still, make the candidates making the allegations pay $10,000 each for this test. ....

EVM is costing Rs 10000. Asking for 50 times the price is dishonest attempt to block fair investigation. Rs 12000 is fair price.

Nope. $10000 is about the price of a fairly low-end car (not Tata Nano, but some other car), so it isn't exactly out of reach. But it is big enough to prevent spurious claims from every Tomar, Dixit and Hari seeking to choke the EC. It also covers the cost of several other things:
1. No one will accept proof from a single test case. My physics teacher drilled that into me years ago. They should have a few machines for the test, not just one. One machine from a non-controversial area, one from a controversial area, one picked at random by a committee of anti-EVMs. Or maybe one set of each.
2. Widespread TV and newspaper coverage of the trials, lest another chap starts saying "Hey, that whole trial was done under cover, there must be a fraud somewhere." Let this trial be widely publicized so there's solid proof of either working as advertised or fraud. Besides, if you're so sure of winning it, you wouldn't care because you'd get your money back AND a chance to fire all the BEL head honchos + the CEC.
3. Covers the cost of all the independent engineers who monitor the tests and make sure that none of the anti-EVM folks try to change the hardware underneath, like that one chap already did. They will also monitor the pro-EVM team and make sure that the machine(s) from the non-controversial area also perform like the ones from a controversial area.
4. The cost of Rs. 10,000 is spread out across several machines. If they were to replace a single machine, it would cost more than Rs. 10,000. Note that this machine (or machines) will potentially be subject to destructive testing to verify that the ROM chip indeed has the program from BEL. This also covers the lab costs to use the equipment for verifying this.
5. Chaps have been maligning the CEC and BEL mercilessly without any proof. If proved that the EVMs function as advertised, it is only fair that they get some compensation for all they've been through.
6. Also, if anti-EVMs try to downhill ski from the promise of building a well or a school in a remote village if the EVMs work as advertised, some of that $10,000 could be put to good use for that purpose.

[ArmenT]

OK, here is the web link: http://sites.google.com/site/evmproc/

The data is for a plant manufacturing 30,000 EVMS a month, running 3 shifts continuously. Shift staffing is calculated by the industrial norms, allowing weekly off, compensatory off, leave etc. This is a generic plant, so when not making EVMs, they can make pretty much anything.

Dileep saar, I think your math might be a bit off. You say that there are 3 shifts, but I think you're multiplying by 4 when you compute the numbers in the 4th column (Total) for some of the rows. For instance, the "Production Supervisor, Pre Processing" line. Am I correct or not, in believing that the Total number should be 3?

Few typos I spotted right away (if you feel like correcting them, that is):
1. Missing 'c' in the last word in this sentence: "I draw heavily from a currently running plant in the private sector that is similar in apability."
2. Misspelled "implementation" as "implemntation"
3. Using "line" instead of "like": "using a source control system line SubVersion"
4. you've got an "os" instead of "is" in this sentence: "Once the lot os cleared, ..."

Great writeup sir. Thank you for putting in the effort.

[Dileep]

OK, here is the web link: http://sites.google.com/site/evmproc/

The data is for a plant manufacturing 30,000 EVMS a month, running 3 shifts continuously. Shift staffing is calculated by the industrial norms, allowing weekly off, compensatory off, leave etc. This is a generic plant, so when not making EVMs, they can make pretty much anything.

Dileep saar, I think your math might be a bit off. You say that there are 3 shifts, but I think you're multiplying by 4 when you compute the numbers in the 4th column (Total) for some of the rows. For instance, the "Production Supervisor, Pre Processing" line. Am I correct or not, in believing that the Total number should be 3?

Few typos I spotted right away (if you feel like correcting them, that is):
1. Missing 'c' in the last word in this sentence: "I draw heavily from a currently running plant in the private sector that is similar in apability."
2. Misspelled "implementation" as "implemntation"
3. Using "line" instead of "like": "using a source control system line SubVersion"
4. you've got an "os" instead of "is" in this sentence: "Once the lot os cleared, ..."

Great writeup sir. Thank you for putting in the effort.

Armen, the X4 is standard formula onlee. The standard work shifts a worker puts in is 250 (after deducting the weekly off, compensatory off for the holidays and leaves). You need 365 * 3 = 1095 shifts to run the plant, which will need 4.38 people. 4 is the nominal number that works.

I just typed it up on the Google site editor. The numbers are done on XLS, saved as HTML and pasted into the site editor. I spent the minimum possible time on that. Thanks for the comments. I will try to fix them when I edit it next time.

[ArmenT]

^^^
Makes sense to me now. I wasn't thinking in terms of a plant running 7 days a week, because us IT-vity folks only work one shift a day, 5 days a week. Thanks much sir.

[Raja Bose]

AoA! This thread is silent for the first time in weeks!! Did RM downhill ski again after Dileep's formulation of the production process and organization? When will I become an Oldie

[Dileep]

Maybe someone (a pothu janam) beat him up, after being driven crazy with the out of the world arguments!

[Raja Bose]

^^^ or maybe RM from his S-class, accused a common of being elitist one too many times.

[Pranav]

Your claiming it to be possible doesn't make it possible - your radio theory has been debunked on this thread multiple times. There are limits to hardware fabrication. That way I can claim that I can fly faster than the speed of light - that doesn't mean its true.

That's your opinion. Readers of the thread will doubtless come to their own conclusions.

[Raja Bose]

^^^ Which one? the radio theory or my flying at the speed of light?

BTW the feasibility is all based on physics and hardware limits - it is not rocket science.

[Rahul Mehta]

In the radio enabled EVM, the radio signal receiving elements are on PCB put in a way that naked eye examination cannot reveal the difference between radio enabled PCB and actual PCB.

----

http://sites.google.com/site/evmproc/

Above is an example of an elaborate process-babble and nothing more. Thru an elaborate process-babble, Dileep claims that he has proved that "BEL can never make an EVM with tempered code in it". Which is same as proving that "no factory in world can make a calculator which would say 2 + 2 = 5 "!! So much for his proof. No wonder why he opposes giving EVMs to public. Because if EVMs are given to public then his myth that EVM with tempered code will get shattered within weeks.

Now Dileep, the deal was to give a process that BEL follows. You have given a 5-page long description of how PCBs are made. But most likely, BEL did NOT make PCBs. PCB making was outsourced. You have cited 10s of titles and 50-100 people involved in making PCB, who have no role to play in inserting tempered code and have no means to know or stop insertion of tempered code. All the description of PCB manufacturing process was utterly irrelevant.

------

BEL has refused to disclose the process they used to make EVM. And assuming that BEL chief, BEL EVM head wanted to have tempered code in EVM, we can assume that they used all their administrative powers to ensure that process looks OK, but has enough room to put tempered code. So here is the process they could have followed

1. BEL Chief appoints his pet as EVM Software unit head, EVM hardware unit head
2. BEL Software unit head is also the team lead and a coder himself
3. EVM hardware unit head is in-charge of verification of chips.
4. An eloberate testing unit is there to verify chip, code etc.

With collusion of these 3 people alone, a tempered code can be inserted into EVM. There are verification teams, but they will not able to notice.

How?

1. The software head will put random bytes in the unused space in ROM. The "random" bytes will not be random but will have additional code to add votes to the preferred candidate in encrypted form. So the OFFICIAL copy of the ROM code has the tempered code in it. So testers will not notice foul play when chips come with these "random" bytes, as they were supposed to have these random bytes.

2. The chip has two versions a)untempered version b)tempered version. The tempered version has additional microcode to decrypt the tempered code and execute it

3. When the first lot of chip comes from Hitachi, all chips are untempered. So BEL chip testers will not notice any foul play. After they do gate level examination of the chip, if at all they do, they will pass it.

4. Boxes of CPU chips got replaced inside PCB making company. So the chips used to make PCB were tempered chips.

5. When PCBs came, the BEL scanned only PCBs and did not scan the chip at gate level. So now BEL testers have no way to notice that chip is different from what they tested and chip has tempered microcode in it.

=================

So I need only 3-5 people in BEL. And I need co-operation from PCB making company owners to ensure that Box-A containing chips that BEL sent is trashed and instead chips from Box-B are used. And I need Hitachi to send me two boxes of chips : Box-A has chips with untempered microcode and Box-B has chip with additional microcode. The ROM code in both chip is same.

And in addition, BEL chief need to pay "experts" to tell public that EVMs must not be given to public. And he needs to pay experts to explain why transparency is a bad idea !! And experts will gladly do that (eg PwC). In fact, I know "experts" who go around claiming that transparency is bad idea and EVM must not be given to public. With this, EVMs with tempered code and tempered microcode will never come in light.