LCH and other Helicopters Discussion Thread

[nits]

Dhruv simulator...

The Dhruv simulator (civil variant) has finally made its official entry to HATSOFF premises in Bangalore. This after arriving at Chennai 2-3-weeks ago. The blogger visited the facility on Feb 22 and chanced upon Winco T.K. Singha, IAF PRO, at the controls of the simulator. HATSOFF hopes to have the DGCA nod in place in the next 2 months. The Dhruv simulator is currently undergoing its full integration. The man doing the talking is HATSOFF CEO Winco (Retd.) C.D. Upadhyay.

[Juggi G]

Full Size Version of the Image posted by Avinandan babu

[aniket]

Can anybody explain to me why the Indian LOH will only get an order of 187 units while another 189 will be bought from foreign vendors . This is absolute stupidity.When a product can be made in India and is being made in India then why are we buying form outside. Why not just give the whole order to HAL ?

[nikhil_p]

@aniket ^^^
This is a 'bash the noob' question!
The LUH is still a long way from getting operational clearance. Post this, the setup for manufacturing these will have to be created. Even if HAL manufactures 4 per month, it will take around 4 years post the ramp up to manufacture these. (the actual rate of production is closer to 2 per month). In the meanwhile we will get the other 197 so they will help fill up numbers during this phase. Also, the AAC and IAF both mainly use one type (Chetak) in the heights and the other at the plains. This helps with maintenance as well.

[Singha]

it seems our needs are always in advance of domestic capacity or project sanctions...

we continue to import more and more Mi17 while MRH project is thought of but not sanctioned
T90 was supposed to be 'stopgap' for Arjun
imported LOH vs desi LUH which is not sanctioned yet
200 imported basic trainers vs desi HAL can easily build one based around a imported prop engine
MTA dreams with russia vs MTA with brazil
imported heavy gunships -vs- LCH still in prototype stage and no heavy version planned

in some ways it can be attributed to lack of funds and people to undertake many projects in parallel, but in other ways it also reveals lack of long range planning and funding to prepare for needs 5 yrs and 10 yrs down the line.

the fault imo lies at MOD/PMO/GHQ level rather than production agencies which are 100% govt controlled and have limited freedom to pvtly fund costly projects.

[aniket]

Singha i totally agree with your point.Somehow I feel that we as a nation and Armed Forces have gotten so used to importing things that even when it can be made in INDIA , we don't even try to do it on our own

[Kailash]

Singhaji I would say India is spoilt for choices. In the current system everybody gains - corrupt service men, middle men, arms dealers, arms producers etc.

Had we been experiencing issues in importing high tech items like - say China has been for the past few decades, we would have developed better technology, reverse engineering techniques and espionage/cyber network than them.

I would say long term sanctions/bans are the only way to make our babus understand the important of grooming technology development at home. We have to be pushed to the corner to sufficiently invest in indigenous products. Sorry for OT post

[kmkraoind]

Singhaji I would say India is spoilt for choices. In the current system everybody gains - corrupt service men, middle men, arms dealers, arms producers etc.

Had we been experiencing issues in importing high tech items like - say China has been for the past few decades, we would have developed better technology, reverse engineering techniques and espionage/cyber network than them.

I would say long term sanctions/bans are the only way to make our babus understand the important of grooming technology development at home. We have to be pushed to the corner to sufficiently invest in indigenous products. Sorry for OT post

There is another angle to it. None of these LCH, Arjun are 100% indigenous. In case of war, attrition will be high. Even with imported components HAL, Avadi cannot churn out the equivalent volume of attrition. May be Europeans and Russia can charge heavily during the war times, but at least they can churn decent volume and ship them India. Forget about high tech western Mil-Ind complex, we are not even quarter what Chinese can churn out. May be Chinese do not produce high quality and hitech goods, but they can easily compensate that with volumes.

I am not against Indigenous efforts, but see how OFB cannot produce quality pistols or basic ammunations like rifle rounds for army (even in 1980s we have imported them from North Korea, now from Eastern European countries.

For any decent Indigenous manufacturing we have to reform OFBs and must start to build up top quality Mil-Ind complex with efforts of private sector. Till then, more imports and few indigenous products.

[Rahul M]

what has OFB got to do with LCH ? please do not make irrelevant comparisons. no country makes every little part that goes into a product. but having production and design done inside your country is infinitely more useful in wartime than whichever foreign manufacturer you buy from.

[Lalmohan]

theres two kinds of conventional war these days
1. all out psycho max strength punch up - all over in 72 hrs
2. long drawn out attrition

in the first case there is no time for new production
in the second case a low production rate is kinda ok

[Singha]

stuff like small arms can be produced fairly quickly if needed, but not fighters, helicopters or tanks which take 6 months on production line or more. throwing bodies at the problem does not help either as a delicate process has to be followed.

the only countries who can replace losses in a long drawn out attritional war are those who have ready reserve equipment and a good stock of spares.

the eqpt being imported or desi would not matter, but the stock of spares, std of upkeep, reserve unit training and availability of trained operators does.

its a laughable chinese psyops that just because they hold 2000 obsolete flying coffin fighters in the inventory, even after we turkey shoot most of them these down like errant flies, they can magically replace them all within a week (and the pilots for them) using "shenzhen production capacity". same goes for complex and effective items like 155mm cannons or tactical missiles/rockets - you either have them in ready stock or be prepared to fight for 5 months until the stuff that starts production on D-day is delivered to user.

production high tech war eqpt is a tad different from assembling iphones or ripped off cellphones by the 100s every hour.

[Arya Sumantra]

There is another angle to it. None of these LCH, Arjun are 100% indigenous. In case of war, attrition will be high. Even with imported components HAL, Avadi cannot churn out the equivalent volume of attrition. May be Europeans and Russia can charge heavily during the war times, but at least they can churn decent volume and ship them India. Forget about high tech western Mil-Ind complex, we are not even quarter what Chinese can churn out. May be Chinese do not produce high quality and hitech goods, but they can easily compensate that with volumes.

For that to happen one has to give a huge order to HAL, Avadi etc to justify economically the reduction of foreign content over certain number of units and to set up a higher production rate facility. It's called Integrative planning or Well co-ordinated planning.

At some point you have to decide to have more numbers of what you can make rather than go for the most uber type of platform. We know we are trailing behind western world so we should build more of what we can and that requires higher production rate. And being prepared with big numbers helps not to need any last minute production. But our useless perfectionist services folks are such that until the water reaches the nose level they keep saying no to desi stuff on some pretext or the other and only give out a sizable order at last minute. eg Akash, approaching drdo for artillery development.

Just look at the frivolous excuses they have lined up in anticipation for denying Arjun in armoured vehicles thread. Any leader with guts would have grilled these natasha maniacs into submission.

Its a laughable chinese psyops that just because they hold 2000 obsolete flying coffin fighters in the inventory, even after we turkey shoot most of them these down like errant flies, they can magically replace them all within a week (and the pilots for them) using "shenzhen production capacity". same goes for complex and effective items like 155mm cannons or tactical missiles/rockets - you either have them in ready stock or be prepared to fight for 5 months until the stuff that starts production on D-day is delivered to user.

Dangerous line of thought, Singhaji. Like that we will be perpetually dependent on imports. And what will be the wartime exchange rate at the time of conflicts to buy us whatever we want in numbers desired & within our budget? And you are assuming that the supplier nations won't need for themselves at such times-good for localized conflicts but not for WW like situation. As to what strings and ropes supplier nations will apply on us in such dire times hardly needs a mention.

The best strategy is to follow numbers game so that you can at least cannibalize parts from redundant platform numbers to account for increased spares demand in wartime while the local facility readies more.

production high tech war eqpt is a tad different from assembling iphones or ripped off cellphones by the 100s every hour.

That only explains why we should not be making weapons platforms at the last minute. Not why we shouldn't have facility to make big numbers and order in time without being too finicky and improve and troubleshoot while already in service.

[kmkraoind]

For that to happen one has to give a huge order to HAL, Avadi etc to justify economically the reduction of foreign content over certain number of units and to set up a higher production rate facility. It's called Integrative planning or Well co-ordinated planning.

Its not the appropriate thread to discuss, since discussion is going on I would like to reply. Sir, I am also talking about churn around time. Look if reports are correct, DRDO is asking 3 years time just to restart a revamped/evolutionized Arjun production and it will take another 2-1/2 years hyst to finish them. Imagine 3 wars in decade like scenario we have just faced from 1962 to 1971, would nation will be in armed preparedness. In one sentence, IA does not fully trust DRDO and current state of indigenous manufacturing and they are hedging their supply route to Russia/Europe also, whats wrong in it.

[Singha]

>> Dangerous line of thought, Singhaji. Like that we will be perpetually dependent on imports.

I never said do not indigenize. my comment was in response to whether we need a soviet union style production rate....something the chinese also claim to have sometimes.

>> And what will be the wartime exchange rate at the time of conflicts to buy us whatever we want in numbers desired & within our budget?

there will be hardly any time to buy and take delivery + initial QA of any major item except ammunition and maybe missiles delivered from the seller countries reserve stock. my comment was rather than that, better to stockpile adequate quantities locally and maintain them well. you might recall a decade ago we had a rash of major fires in ammo dumps kept in open sheds covered with tarps due to summer heat, bush fires....GF who was then raksha mantri unveiled a scheme to build network of AC igloo type arms dumps as per proper international std. i hope that proj is not long complete because we do not hear of such explosions anymore...

iirc IDF was able to keep up a high sortie rate in its wars by ensuring extra pilots, additional ground crews and not attempting to debug or repair damaged stuff inplace on the ac but pulling them out and repairing offline while a fresh piece like an engine got slotted in asap. modern LRU and BITE equipped systems also permit such for electronics and avionics.

if we want to fight, we have to be ready to unleash hell on few hrs notice and keep that up for 3-4 weeks without depending on anyone's goodwill. such things mean unsexy upfront investment (silent ones) on infra, storage, people, training, stockpiles that just the shiny front end acquistions tend to overshadow.

future wars will be sharp and devastating affairs launched with a shower of treetop level stealth GLCMs knocking on our door one fine morning and be much higher in intensity, requiring 1000s of IAF sorties a day over a period of 3-4 weeks to maintain the pressure.

the only rule the jungle respects is to be afraid of those with bigger teeth and sharper claws.

are we up to it?

[jai]

>> Dangerous line of thought, Singhaji. Like that we will be perpetually dependent on imports.

I never said do not indigenize. my comment was in response to whether we need a soviet union style production rate....something the chinese also claim to have sometimes.

>> And what will be the wartime exchange rate at the time of conflicts to buy us whatever we want in numbers desired & within our budget?

there will be hardly any time to buy and take delivery + initial QA of any major item except ammunition and maybe missiles delivered from the seller countries reserve stock. my comment was rather than that, better to stockpile adequate quantities locally and maintain them well. you might recall a decade ago we had a rash of major fires in ammo dumps kept in open sheds covered with tarps due to summer heat, bush fires....GF who was then raksha mantri unveiled a scheme to build network of AC igloo type arms dumps as per proper international std. i hope that proj is not long complete because we do not hear of such explosions anymore...

iirc IDF was able to keep up a high sortie rate in its wars by ensuring extra pilots, additional ground crews and not attempting to debug or repair damaged stuff inplace on the ac but pulling them out and repairing offline while a fresh piece like an engine got slotted in asap. modern LRU and BITE equipped systems also permit such for electronics and avionics.

if we want to fight, we have to be ready to unleash hell on few hrs notice and keep that up for 3-4 weeks without depending on anyone's goodwill. such things mean unsexy upfront investment (silent ones) on infra, storage, people, training, stockpiles that just the shiny front end acquistions tend to overshadow.

future wars will be sharp and devastating affairs launched with a shower of treetop level stealth GLCMs knocking on our door one fine morning and be much higher in intensity, requiring 1000s of IAF sorties a day over a period of 3-4 weeks to maintain the pressure.

the only rule the jungle respects is to be afraid of those with bigger teeth and sharper claws.

are we up to it?

Great post Singha Ji....+5 !!
Could not agree more ......we have to be prepared to fight on both fronts for at least 4 weeks involving all three forces and all their good equipment. There would be lesser mobilization time and even lesser time to fix attrition through repair...it would have to be quickly replaced - both man and machine. This can not happen without full reserves to cater to such a scenario.

[prabhug]

My two cents on the above comments by singhaji

1.To have more uptime and less MTBF we need maintainable machines or lot of machines which would gives the same up time
(I think russians take the later part)
2.In the a developing democracy like india the manpower is short , so we have to plan for machines which need less maintenance and more reliable ones.
3.I would say what our force trying to say is correct(less maintenance and more reliable machines) , but the execution plan is absurd(we tend to rely on import and believe foreign vendors would help in it)


Cheers

Prabhu.G

[Arya Sumantra]

>> Dangerous line of thought, Singhaji. Like that we will be perpetually dependent on imports.

I never said do not indigenize. my comment was in response to whether we need a soviet union style production rate....something the chinese also claim to have sometimes.

But that(dependence) was what your arguments would be used for, eventually. Dependence for highly specialized stuff was fine if temporary.

Look if reports are correct, DRDO is asking 3 years time just to restart a revamped/evolutionized Arjun production and it will take another 2-1/2 years hyst to finish them.

Had IA not dragged its feet on MK1 all these years all those production facilities would have evolved, stabilized, ramped up to not require such delays. Peace time gives you enough luxury to troubleshoot all the problems with equipment while it is in service and modify/improvise a desi equipment in subsequent Marks/Versions. We don't have to be sequential, we can do things in parallel. But our forces have a motto- to hold up desi procurement on minor issues and then want something in big numbers overnight. Production capacities do not come overnight. Be parallel not sequential.

Also when you sport a desi gear even with minor issues it still contributes to a deterrence in the eyes of enemy assessing you as compared to having nothing at all until absolutely perfect right from Mark 1 version.

In one sentence, IA does not fully trust DRDO and current state of indigenous manufacturing and they are hedging their supply route to Russia/Europe also, whats wrong in it.

an irrational plan based on assumptions of unlimited wallet size, unlimited forex size, ignoring wartime forex rate, ignoring that suppliers can phase out manufacturing of the equipment we want to depend on, ignoring possibility of labour/political unrest in supplier country at time of our conflict and necessity, ignoring the vulnerability of supply route of def equipment from the supplier nation to Ind, sustainability of such dependence over a long term, ignoring the strings and ropes that could be forced in our times of need, ignoring the negative political repercussions of competition between supplier nations for our deals, ignores that our doctrine may be different from supplier’s(e.g. single seater vs twin seater etc etc), ignores that our unique battlefront conditions and terrain diversity requires customized def equipment NOT generic unsuited equipment and consequent lack of anything unique in our forces that our rivals cannot get for themselves with moolah.

It is far more prudent to begin with some import content in our indigenous solutions and gradually replace that content with indigenous equivalents and make all this economically viable by placing a huge order for homegrown solution without being too finicky. This in turn will make a high production rate facility viable and have local equipment in big numbers so that any stuff difficult to procure at short notice during wartime spikes in demand can be addressed by using redundant numbers that were built during the peace time.

Make huge numbers of what we can make & not be finicky and Always try to bridge the gap. Build up the massive numbers during peacetime for wartime demand uncertainities.

[Abhibhushan]

Singha said

iirc IDF was able to keep up a high sortie rate in its wars by ensuring extra pilots, additional ground crews and not attempting to debug or repair damaged stuff inplace on the ac but pulling them out and repairing offline while a fresh piece like an engine got slotted in asap. modern LRU and BITE equipped systems also permit such for electronics and avionics.

if we want to fight, we have to be ready to unleash hell on few hrs notice and keep that up for 3-4 weeks without depending on anyone's goodwill. such things mean unsexy upfront investment (silent ones) on infra, storage, people, training, stockpiles that just the shiny front end acquistions tend to overshadow.

The total concept is covered by military logistics! The 1971 operations were remarkable for the excellence of logistics which made that war look like a well planned exercise. The building blocks of that situation were the individual leadership qualities of the incumbent chiefs of the services and the prime minister who ensured of adequate preparatory time before the shooting began.

Our much maligned faujis are not good at self praise, but are able to perform well when unshackled.

[VinodTK]

In Siachen, Dhruv PROVES A world-beater

Very quickly, the Dhruv demonstrated its superiority over the military’s tiny, single-engine Cheetah helicopters, which can barely lift 20 kilos of payload to Sonam. Touching down on a tiny H-shape formed on the snow with perforated iron sheets, the Dhruv’s pilots signalled to one of the soldiers on Sonam to climb aboard. Effortlessly, the Dhruv took off, circled the post and landed again. Another soldier clambered onto the helicopter and the process was repeated, then with a third, and then a fourth soldier. Even with all Sonam’s defenders on board, the twin-engine Dhruv — painted incongruously in the peacock regalia of the IAF’s aerobatics team, Sarang — lifted off and landed back safely.

“This helicopter is simply unmatched at high altitudes,” says Group Captain Unni Nair, HAL’s chief helicopter test pilot, who flew the Dhruv that August morning during “hot-and-high” trials at Sonam. That term means flying at extreme altitudes in summer, when the heat-swollen oxygen is even thinner than usual. “The army wanted the Dhruv to lift 200 kilos to Sonam; we managed to carry 600 kilos.”
:
:
The Shakti-powered Dhruv Mark III is changing the operational dynamics on India’s high-altitude Himalayan defences. The capability to airlift soldiers will allow far-flung posts to be manned with fewer soldiers. In a crisis, jawans can be airlifted quickly from lower altitudes to threatened areas, and casualties can be evacuated.

[vic]

In the above news there is a comment on how HAL is proud to be a screw driver manufacturer!

He sums up HAL’s helicopter strategy as follows: “We will design our helicopters; develop the critical technologies of helicopter transmissions; manufacture composites; and integrate and assemble the helicopter. We will outsource the manufacture of sub-assemblies and components and structures to any vendor on the globe that offers us cost-effective solutions.”

Note:- No mention of any interest to develop indigenous supply chain or indigenous engine

[Ashutosh Malik]

In the above news there is a comment on how HAL is proud to be a screw driver manufacturer!

He sums up HAL’s helicopter strategy as follows: “We will design our helicopters; develop the critical technologies of helicopter transmissions; manufacture composites; and integrate and assemble the helicopter. We will outsource the manufacture of sub-assemblies and components and structures to any vendor on the globe that offers us cost-effective solutions.”

Note:- No mention of any interest to develop indigenous supply chain or indigenous engine

Pardon me, but how does the above statement suggest that "HAL is proud to be a screw driver manfacturer"?

My understanding was that being able to "design and develop critical technologies, manufacture composites" would suggest something completely the opposite of being a "screw driver manufacturer". Even if it doesn't contain a critical element like an indigenous engine.

Best regards.

[Gaur]

vic,
I hope that you do not take this personally but your post is a classical example of selective reading and then totally twisting the thing to suit some incredulous lahori logic.

Added Later: As it would be a total waste of forum space to discuss this matter any further, I suggest that you read about the indigenous involvement in ALH as written by Hari Sir in this very forum.

[SaiK]

CAG points are necessary for future point of focus, and not for current requirement. Once capability is established, we can mature with home grown sub components. HAL if it gets larger scale orders, it could perhaps think about increased assembly lines to substantiate the production engineering requirements. One can't blame HAL alone since RoI on mass production is never seen with in a decade time. Hence, HAL strategy is perfect, and there is no choke point at all since it is all HAL driven technology and contracts.

[Kartik]

In the above news there is a comment on how HAL is proud to be a screw driver manufacturer!

He sums up HAL’s helicopter strategy as follows: “We will design our helicopters; develop the critical technologies of helicopter transmissions; manufacture composites; and integrate and assemble the helicopter. We will outsource the manufacture of sub-assemblies and components and structures to any vendor on the globe that offers us cost-effective solutions.”

Note:- No mention of any interest to develop indigenous supply chain or indigenous engine

Yes they're proud to be a screw driver manufacturer, just as EADS, Airbus and Boeing are. They do the design of airframe/systems/subsystems themselves, outsource it those who can build it at the cheapest price (that’s what a global supplier base means) and then integrate it themselves. All these (Boeing, Airbus, Embraer, HAL) are proud screwdriver manufacturers. Ok ? That way, someone who has been building specific parts for several years and knows the in-outs of the design/manufacture/testing process does the job and does it well (or screws up like in the case of the Boeing 787) rather than having the OEM trying its hand at what may be a non cost-effective run of parts to be built, or simply a part that requires experience which the OEM lacks or doesn't consider strategic enough to do on its own.

If they suffer from a NMH (Not Made Here) syndrome, they're criticized as being fools for developing and manufacturing every single part in-house. If they don't they're criticized for not caring about developing an indigenous supply chain (which is BS, they have a lot of desi private and PSU suppliers).

[balky]

Dhruv proves world beater

[vic]

In the above news there is a comment on how HAL is proud to be a screw driver manufacturer!

He sums up HAL’s helicopter strategy as follows: “We will design our helicopters; develop the critical technologies of helicopter transmissions; manufacture composites; and integrate and assemble the helicopter. We will outsource the manufacture of sub-assemblies and components and structures to any vendor on the globe that offers us cost-effective solutions.”

Note:- No mention of any interest to develop indigenous supply chain or indigenous engine

Pardon me, but how does the above statement suggest that "HAL is proud to be a screw driver manfacturer"?

My understanding was that being able to "design and develop critical technologies, manufacture composites" would suggest something completely the opposite of being a "screw driver manufacturer". Even if it doesn't contain a critical element like an indigenous engine.

Best regards.

They are patting themselves on the back for gross fraud on Indian security. Pray tell me, is engine or bearing or avionics not "critical tech". HAL is lying by limiting critical technologies to transmission and composities. CAG was right that 90% of the components are imported. Further the raw material for even indigenous components (hardly any) are imported. Hari, as a loyal soldier was just defending HAL. In this case CAG was right on the dot. HAL "obviously" cannot make each component but "as a policy" they are NOT making any intense effort to develop indigenous supply chain. Few nuts and bolts don't matter.

ALH was not even indigenous designa and even the test pilots were imported. Since first flight in 1991, HAL has not been able to stabilize the assembly line in last 20 years. Airbus was not mandated to develop and manufacture engines as there was already other companies doing that. HAL is the only company in India mandated to manufacture aero engines.

HAL is trying the Nazi proganda thingie, repeat junk 1000 times and then people start loving it!

[Indranil]

^^^ Welcome to today's world .

[rajanb]

If they suffer from a NMH (Not Made Here) syndrome, they're criticized as being fools for developing and manufacturing every single part in-house. If they don't they're criticized for not caring about developing an indigenous supply chain (which is BS, they have a lot of desi private and PSU suppliers).

I do tend to agree with these sentiments. Our R&D is in its infancy (comparitively) and in the rather murky politico/economic and fluid situation, we should progress our weapon design and manufacturing capabilities by whatever means.

I do feel CAG is more of a number crunching body which has no insight on the complexities of technology. And we will never have a totally indigenous complex product.

If we can design a world beater like LCH/DRHUV-WSI and source components from other countries, why not?

This approach is no way screwdriver-ish!

[somnath]

They are patting themselves on the back for gross fraud on Indian security. Pray tell me, is engine or bearing or avionics not "critical tech". HAL is lying by limiting critical technologies to transmission and composities. CAG was right that 90% of the components are imported. Further the raw material for even indigenous components (hardly any) are imported. Hari, as a loyal soldier was just defending HAL. In this case CAG was right on the dot. HAL "obviously" cannot make each component but "as a policy" they are NOT making any intense effort to develop indigenous supply chain. Few nuts and bolts don't matter

This is an incredibly strange statement...If anything, the legitimate blame that can be laid at HAL's (and by extension DRDO/ADA's) door is the fact that they tried to do too many things at the same time...All aircraft manufacturers in the world specialise in design, integration, assembly and testing - components are outsourced to specialised manufacturers...there are 7-8 different great engine-makers, numerous companies in the avionics space - why reivent all wheels? Embraer started at a similar timeframe as HAL - and by doing just the above (design, integration, testing and assembly), it is a name to reckon with in aerospace...

If HAL can tranform itself into what Embraer has become, that will be a massive achievement in itself...India being such a huge captive market, if HAL has a winning product, all the "ancilliary companies" - engines to avionics to nuts/bolts will anyway be enthused to set up shop in India...The so-called "supply chain" will build itself out...

Net net, finally HAL has the right ideas, regardless of what CAG might have to say..

[Gaur]

HAL To Deliver More Dhruv Mk. 3 Helicopters

“The Mk. 3 sports a new electronic warfare suite, advanced laser warning systems, missile warning systems and electro-optical pods. It has a new-generation vibration-control system in place along with the glass cockpit. It also has an automatic chaff-and-flare dispenser,” the official says.

That is a serious upgrade. The vibration control system is specially interesting. Note that Dhruv was already excellent in this regard even with the lack of one. Also, in a discussion on BR a few moons back some of the design choices for LCH were linked to the lack of vibration control system.

[rohitvats]

From the articel posted by balky above:

The current order includes 54 weaponised Dhruvs — termed Advanced Light Helicopter — Weapons Systems Integrated, or ALH-WSI — armed with anti-aircraft and anti-tank missiles, rockets and a 20-millimetre turret gun. The ALH-WSI is scheduled to begin weapons trials in Orissa in April

That is one serious upgrade in firepower of IA in one shot....we are looking at 3 Squadrons at minimum here. Way to go

[abhik]

They are patting themselves on the back for gross fraud on Indian security. Pray tell me, is engine or bearing or avionics not "critical tech". HAL is lying by limiting critical technologies to transmission and composities. CAG was right that 90% of the components are imported. Further the raw material for even indigenous components (hardly any) are imported. Hari, as a loyal soldier was just defending HAL. In this case CAG was right on the dot. HAL "obviously" cannot make each component but "as a policy" they are NOT making any intense effort to develop indigenous supply chain. Few nuts and bolts don't matter

This is an incredibly strange statement...If anything, the legitimate blame that can be laid at HAL's (and by extension DRDO/ADA's) door is the fact that they tried to do too many things at the same time...All aircraft manufacturers in the world specialise in design, integration, assembly and testing - components are outsourced to specialised manufacturers...there are 7-8 different great engine-makers, numerous companies in the avionics space - why reivent all wheels?

Sounds perfectly reasonable from a commercial point of view, But almost everything HAL makes is for the military where strategic interests trump commercial.

Embraer started at a similar timeframe as HAL - and by doing just the above (design, integration, testing and assembly), it is a name to reckon with in aerospace...

If HAL can tranform itself into what Embraer has become, that will be a massive achievement in itself...India being such a huge captive market, if HAL has a winning product, all the "ancilliary companies" - engines to avionics to nuts/bolts will anyway be enthused to set up shop in India...The so-called "supply chain" will build itself out...

That the "supply chain will building itself out", i have a hard time believing. Take Embraer for example, how many aircraft do they produce whose engines are made in Brazil?

[Cybaru]

Haha, Whatever you do, there are going to be critics. Fraaaking shyate .. I am glad HAL has atleast dhruv/lch in kitty. Hoping LOH/MRH join the fleet soon...

I am hoping they extend shakti to the 20-30% growth margin we had built in our initial design and make a heavier version of 2 engined dhruv (7-7.5 ton), one for the navy and retrofit it to LCH allowing it get more armour for self protection.

[rohitvats]

This Dhruv baby will do to helicopter segment in India what LCA did to the fighter-aviation complex...

[Juggi G]

Digital Cutaway of Light Combat Helicopter

[Ashutosh Malik]

This Dhruv baby will do to helicopter segment in India what LCA did to the fighter-aviation complex...

Very rightly so.

Best regards.

[Kailash]

That is a serious upgrade. The vibration control system is specially interesting. Note that Dhruv was already excellent in this regard even with the lack of one. Also, in a discussion on BR a few moons back some of the design choices for LCH were linked to the lack of vibration control system.

didnt the Navy reject Dhruv due to some vibration issues? Hope this upgrade helps change that.

[ks_sachin]

rohitvats any idea about IA Helicopter units:
-structure
-strength

Also the WSI Dhruvs:
-are these to new raisings or to existing HUs as replacements

kind regards

[nits]

DHRUV firing Rocket and Main Gun

[rohitvats]

rohitvats any idea about IA Helicopter units:
-structure
-strength

Also the WSI Dhruvs:
-are these to new raisings or to existing HUs as replacements

kind regards

Sir, my knowledge is a bit dated. IIRC, each squadron has 3 X Flights @ 4 units each. Again, iirc, one heptr per flight is reserve. So, you're taking about 9 operational heptr under normal conditions (I know this statement will lead to many questions - but I don't have answers ).

As for WSI-Dhruvs - honestly, no idea. But I would hazard a guess and assume some new raising - this after all is a net increment in numbers and capability. That aside, does anyone have info on what happened to SS-11 ATGM armed Chetaks in IA/IAF? Are they still there? And what ATGM do they carry? These units can be the candidate for these WSI-Dhruvs.