Indian Naval Discussion

[Singha]

for aircraft carriers, torpedos work best though a big missile like brahmos will certainly start huge fires and mission kill it.

[koti]

Torpedoes lack range and speed. Guidance will also be a problem. Bmos is sub launchable, even a fully submerged platform can release it.
Having it as a mine in a traveling/stationary pontoon will be big asymmetric problem for any Navy.
There is no reason why we should limit it to anti AC role alone.

[keshavchandra]

Indian Navy Raises 3rd UAV Unit, 'Spirited Shadowers'

The maritime reconnaissance capability of the Indian Navy's Eastern Naval Command got a fillip with the commissioning of a new UAV squadron at INS Parundu, the air station at Ramnathapuram in Tamil Nadu. The Naval Air Squadron INAS 344 was commissioned yesterday by Vice Admiral Anil Chopra, Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Eastern Naval Command.

INAS 344, commanded by Commander Vinit Anand and known as the Spirited Shadowers (the squadron crest depicts an Osprey) is the third of its kind in the Indian Navy and first on the Eastern coast of India (the second, INAS 343 was commissioned in Jan 2011 at Porbandar, Gujarat). The squadron will operate IAI Heron and Searcher Mk.2 UAVs. INS Parundu, commissioned on 26 Mar 09, is presently commanded by Captain VB Bellary. The station, which had first started as a small naval air detachment in 1985, operates Chetak and Dornier aircraft today that provide round-the-clock patrolling and air surveillance in the Palk Bay and Gulf of Mannar regions. The commissioning of UAV squadron will boost naval operations in the region while marking an important milestone in the history of Indian naval aviation as well.

[tsarkar]

I had a noob question for a long time and this post triggered the thought again: how about a torpedo that acts in the following manner...Is this workable?

Good concept.

Infact IN has used it - against itself About 10 years back, IN ASW Corvettes were practicing live torpedo firings. One corvette fired a torpedo whose propulsion failed and it remained suspended in water. When the next ship in line – INS Agray – passed near it, the acoustic head activated and the torpedo exploded badly damaging INS Agray.

Torpedoes have depth settings, so can remain suspended in water.

However, the challenges to this approach are following –
1. Torpedoes have limited range and endurance as someone pointed out.
2. Torpedo sensor range is low (few km)
3. Torpedo speed is low. Outrunning a torpedo is practiced by surface ships.
4. Carrier groups have minesweepers whose minehunting sonars can detect such torpedoes
5. All ships carry TDS like Mareech/TOTED
6. Mines in open sea can be bypassed. After detection, the ships can just pass it widely, just like on the highway, on seeing a pothole, we pass it widely.
7. Torpedoes with propulsion packs and control systems are more expensive than mines!

[Singha]

I think modern subs also have high freq mine avoidance sonars.

read a book once about how the first submarine sonar was developed at great effort in UC san diego, rushed into service in american gato/balao class WW2 subs and pack of them
bypassed the moored minefields to enter between japan and china from the south, rampage around for a couple weeks before escaping through the north of hokkaido. one sub was lost with all hands to ASW ships.

it is an excellent read for the armchair brf admirals like me
http://www.subsowespac.org/books/hellcats.shtml

[Surya]

nice

INS Parundu is Eagle in Tamil

Osprey for the unit

nice touch

[abhik]

=
After developing the ALH, HAL should have taken the next step and developed a Medium Lift Helicopter. Instead it is spending its limited resources on the low hanging fruit of the Light Utility Helicopter(LUH)

There is already a project going on for Medium Lift Helicopter in HAL. As per reports, the preliminary design phase was also completed. The site livefist had some details. You can search the archives for the same. Also, for LUH, half are to be imported and half would be local LUHs which is more or less a confirmed order, so HAL has a strong case to carry on its development.

You missed the point I was making. HAL has only "completed preliminary design phase" of the Medium Lift Helicopter while IAF, IN and the home ministry are ordering dozens on the same type. After developing the ALH it should have concentrated on the on the Medium Lift Helicopter instead of spending any effort on its own Light Helicopter. A large proportion of the requirement for this type was going to be fulfilled by licence built foreign helicopters any way.

[Shreeman]

a large pikchure: http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/ ... 81-000.jpg

[Kersi D]

a large pikchure: http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/ ... 81-000.jpg

BEAUTIFUL


Why is there a a cage around the SAM launcher ?

The SAM guidance radars (enclosure) seem to be slightly different.

Can somebody identify the main radars ?
K

[Singha]

front mast is Top plate radar for search and tracking
the four drums are the Orekh radars to guide the SA17 SAMs
rear mast is ELTA 2238 STAR 3D search radar
the waist radar high up is one of the two barak STGR units
you can see one of the two AK630
the flat plate radar atop the bridge - garpun bal to talk to the Brahmos and surface search?

unknown to me:
the white drum atop the helicopter hanger, perhaps a homing beacon for the helis or a anti-ASM decoy launcher ?
the round dish radar atop the bridge, one level higher up...(I think its the radar to control the otobreda gun)

total = 10 radars.

the DDG51 class has 4 aegis radar panels fused into one, 4 small director radars for SAMs and perhaps 1 radar each for surface navigation and to control the 5" gun. I think the main SPY radar itself is able to provide guidance illumination for any ESSM quad-packed into the SM2 cells. and not sure if the harpoon needs any midcourse guidance from any radar -which radar?

better integration and less radar is the advantage of having tech base to do radar + weapons inhouse.

[Austin]

The ship looks very impressive bristling with Sensors and Weapons and the sleek hull design , A true 21st Century Ship of IN.

Singha the White Drum is I think an Inmarsat Satellite Communication system

[andy B]

front mast is Top plate radar for search and tracking
the four drums are the Orekh radars to guide the SA17 SAMs
rear mast is ELTA 2238 STAR 3D search radar
the waist radar high up is one of the two barak STGR units
you can see one of the two AK630
the flat plate radar atop the bridge - garpun bal to talk to the Brahmos .....

interestingly that garpun bal also guides kh35s on other IN ships like Delhi n brahmaputra classes in this case they guide them SS 27 sizzlers....also the highest mast should be for the Ellora esm antennas and ofcourse the eon51 electro optical turret....

[Singha]

good catch about the EON51 turret. the icing on cake (top of mast) would be a missile detecting IRST to spot stealthy low flying missiles passively which radar sweeps might be missing or radar shut down to preserve stealth.

[andy B]

good catch about the EON51 turret. the icing on cake (top of mast) would be a missile detecting IRST to spot stealthy low flying missiles passively which radar sweeps might be missing or radar shut down to preserve stealth.

No worries Gd from what's available openly it say Bel produces the eon51 but I strongly doubt that this is a yehudi product lisc. manufactured only would be good to get more details it does however add a most interesting sensor and while I agree that we don't have the same sort of uber tech like spy1/2 that khan parades the collection of radars on these puppies is impressive to day the least my hunch is what the IN lacks in sheer multi function tech like khan they have made up in linking multiple radars from east n west and getting them to work together....my only wish is that these ships don't have dedicated torp. Tubes n subs would probably be need to belt with the anti sub klub variants but then on the other hand these possibly have the most advanced radar suite of any IN ship till the Kolkatas come along...

[Singha]

wiki says shivalik ships have TT, fire out of the same opening used to deploy the boat probably.
2× 2 DTA-53-956 torpedo launchers http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/558/561/

[John]

the DDG51 class has 4 aegis radar panels fused into one, 4 small director radars for SAMs and perhaps 1 radar each for surface navigation and to control the 5" gun. I think the main SPY radar itself is able to provide guidance illumination for any ESSM quad-packed into the SM2 cells. and not sure if the harpoon needs any midcourse guidance from any radar -which radar?

SPY-1 cannot provide terminal illumination still requires SPG-62 but however Aegis is capable of time sharing and optimize the use of SPG-62.

Shivalik is nice vessel its main advantage over Talwar should be its superior range, if we can get the cost down to 500 million each i don't see why we can't build 3 more equipped with Barak-8 till P-17A come into the picture.

[tsarkar]

my only wish is that these ships don't have dedicated torp. Tubes n subs would probably be need to belt with the anti sub klub variants

Look forward of the RHIB housing and you'll find the doors from where the TT will fire. Klub ASW missiles not in service, no designation capability at that range.

[Kersi D]

front mast is Top plate radar for search and tracking
the four drums are the Orekh radars to guide the SA17 SAMs
rear mast is ELTA 2238 STAR 3D search radar
the waist radar high up is one of the two barak STGR units
you can see one of the two AK630
the flat plate radar atop the bridge - garpun bal to talk to the Brahmos and surface search?

unknown to me:
the white drum atop the helicopter hanger, perhaps a homing beacon for the helis or a anti-ASM decoy launcher ?
the round dish radar atop the bridge, one level higher up...(I think its the radar to control the otobreda gun)

total = 10 radars.

the DDG51 class has 4 aegis radar panels fused into one, 4 small director radars for SAMs and perhaps 1 radar each for surface navigation and to control the 5" gun. I think the main SPY radar itself is able to provide guidance illumination for any ESSM quad-packed into the SM2 cells. and not sure if the harpoon needs any midcourse guidance from any radar -which radar?

better integration and less radar is the advantage of having tech base to do radar + weapons inhouse.

THANKS

But..............

Is it Top Plate or Half Plate (of the Delhi class vessels) ? How do we know the difference ?

The side casing of the Orekh radars looks to be slightly different from what we see on the Delhi class

I suppose it could be SA 17 (SA N 12) or SA 11 (SA N 7). Is it possible to know without going into the ship store and reading the name of the missile ?

But where are the Barak launchers ? Similar loaction as Delhi class ?

The Garpun Bal (NATO : Plank Shave) is not flat. It has a typical curved antenna with an overhanging "horn"

Just above the Garpun Bal (NATO : Plank Shave) is EL/M 2221. Same is used on Delhi class for Barak. Correct me if I am wrong

The ESM/ECM on the top of the main mast looks different from the usual Ajanta system. Could it be the Ellora ?

But my question

Is this a new OTO 127 mm gun ?

Why is there a cage around the 3S 90 SAM launchers ? Anything to do with our JCage !!!!!!!!!!

Mr Singha, could you tag this pic and put it somewhere onn BR for future reference ?


K

[Bob V]

reagarding the cage, the launchers on other ships have a flight of steps built on them for maintenance purposes. It seems they built the cage around the steps for safety reasons (akin to the cage around the ladders on cellphone towers). JMT.

[Sagar G]

You missed the point I was making. HAL has only "completed preliminary design phase" of the Medium Lift Helicopter while IAF, IN and the home ministry are ordering dozens on the same type. After developing the ALH it should have concentrated on the on the Medium Lift Helicopter instead of spending any effort on its own Light Helicopter.A large proportion of the requirement for this type was going to be fulfilled by licence built foreign helicopters any way.

HAL didn't waste any effort in developing further ALH as it has grown into a successful one in the years with many variants being developed like the WSI and LCH and the requirement for the LUH is 384 nos. HAL is going to develop and manufacture 187 of these while the rest being brought from outside (and not a "large proportion"). This will surely give a boost to indigenous helicopter design and manufacturing while also fulfilling the requirements of the armed forces. The project is supposed to be completed by 2016 and IIRC there is a penalty clause as well if HAL doesn't deliver on time. I agree with your Medium Lift Helicopter argument but I don't see any reason for blaming HAL for wasting effort in developing the LUH. Had HAL didn't done it I'am pretty sure someone would have ranted about HAL being even unable to do the same.

HAL is working towards indigenizing the avionics as well, I hope it also puts focus towards doing the same for the engine and transmission.

[Nair]

Is the nuclear reactor on the INS Chakra handled by an Indian crew or a Russian one?. IIRC the last nuclear sub we leased had the nuclear reactor handled by a Russian crew throughout the lease period.

[AbhiJ]

L-3 MAPPS was awarded a contract by Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers Ltd. (GRSE) to provide
a combined solution comprising a comprehensive integrated platform management system (IPMS)
and an advanced integrated bridge system (IBS) for the Indian Navy’s indigenously designed new
generation Project 28 anti-submarine warfare Corvettes. The contract is for the first batch of four
Corvettes and 12 ships are planned in all, each with a standard displacement of 2,500 tons and overall
length of about 109 metres.

http://www.mapps.l-3com.com/newsletters/MCN21.pdf

Some Nice Info. Also used for Shivaliks.

[andy B]

wiki says shivalik ships have TT, fire out of the same opening used to deploy the boat probably.
2× 2 DTA-53-956 torpedo launchers http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/558/561/

my only wish is that these ships don't have dedicated torp. Tubes n subs would probably be need to belt with the anti sub klub variants

Look forward of the RHIB housing and you'll find the doors from where the TT will fire. Klub ASW missiles not in service, no designation capability at that range.

Thanks GD and Tsarkar.

Are the DTA 53 tubes the sames as the ones on the Talwar classes right....

But..............

Is it Top Plate or Half Plate (of the Delhi class vessels) ? How do we know the difference ?

It is a Top Plate radar onlee...The Delhi Class has Half Plate radar

Half Plate radar = MR-755 Fregat-M
Top Plate radar = Fregat M2EM I believe...
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Arti ... cle04.html
http://www.concern-agat.com/products/de ... regat-m2em

The side casing of the Orekh radars looks to be slightly different from what we see on the Delhi class

Should not massive differences between them as they still utilise the same overall system...

I suppose it could be SA 17 (SA N 12) or SA 11 (SA N 7). Is it possible to know without going into the ship store and reading the name of the missile ?

Should be the SA17 Kashmir so Navalised SA11 I believe (Tsarkar or Austin etall might be able to get proper confirmation)
http://www.altair-navy.ru/eng/catalogue/6/7/
http://igorrgroup.blogspot.com.au/2010/ ... moirs.html

But where are the Barak launchers ? Similar loaction as Delhi class ?

http://imageshack.us/f/196/shivalik.jpg/

The Garpun Bal (NATO : Plank Shave) is not flat. It has a typical curved antenna with an overhanging "horn"

Saar Garpun Bal continues to have the typical curved antenna refer to the above image onlee...its the BEL Aparna as we call it

Just above the Garpun Bal (NATO : Plank Shave) is EL/M 2221. Same is used on Delhi class for Barak. Correct me if I am wrong

correct

The ESM/ECM on the top of the main mast looks different from the usual Ajanta system. Could it be the Ellora ?

Correct Ellora is now replacing Ajanta I beilieve...

front mast is Top plate radar for search and tracking
the four drums are the Orekh radars to guide the SA17 SAMs
rear mast is ELTA 2238 STAR 3D search radar
the waist radar high up is one of the two barak STGR units
you can see one of the two AK630
the flat plate radar atop the bridge - garpun bal to talk to the Brahmos .....

interestingly that garpun bal also guides kh35s on other IN ships like Delhi n brahmaputra classes in this case they guide them SS 27 sizzlers....also the highest mast should be for the Ellora esm antennas and ofcourse the eon51 electro optical turret....

Is this a new OTO 127 mm gun ?

Nope still the 76MM Oto super rapid gun mount onlee last heard was there is an order being contemplated and GD wants Vulcano to be ordered with it

Why is there a cage around the 3S 90 SAM launchers ? Anything to do with our JCage !!!!!!!!!!

The cage thing has me baffled as well as havent seen this cage on Delhi or Talwar classes...might be a new protective addition onlee

[andy B]

Gents,

Was thinking yesterday about what IN should be getting around in 2012 in terms of fleet strength.

From a first glance there should be:

- Two 11356 frigates (?)
- Chakra
- Arihant
- Two Shivalik class frigates (?)
- Vikramaditya
- One P15 A (?)
- Any P28s (?)
- Additional Mig29Ks (?)
- P8-I Neputnes (?)
- Any new Rotary assets (?)

SNaik, Tsarkar, Chacko, etall appreciate if you could put forth any additional dates and platforms to be deliverd this year...

(Srai not sure if you have an updated delivery schedule table saar)

The above is a massive combat boost potential IMO especially in a qualitative sense given the capabilities that these platforms bring to the IN...

Tsarkar sir...would be kind enough to have a look at the above and comment on what kind of combat potential increase we are looking at for the IN I feel 2012 is a golden year for the IN when it comes to quality and quantity of platforms delievered...

[Singha]

the cage is likely to protect the system in case of brahmos missiles being loaded dockside swinging the wrong way. the missiles are located between the twin RBU and the SAM, so its a tricky place to be in.

[andy B]

the cage is likely to protect the system in case of brahmos missiles being loaded dockside swinging the wrong way. the missiles are located between the twin RBU and the SAM, so its a tricky place to be in.

gd I thin in this case it will be ssn 27 sizzlers or klubs rather than brahmos

[chackojoseph]

INS Tir, INS Shardul and ICGS Veera visit Salalah Port

[Philip]

The 2009 issue of Quarterdeck,the Navy Foundation mag has some excellent articles by many veteran senior naval officers of great repute.There is however one very touching story by Cmde.BR Sen about the legendary late CNS Adm.Ronnie Pereira which must be retold,as it sums up his great humanity and concern for his officers and sailors.

The Cmde. was posted to Bombay to take command of an OPV and his daughter had been refused admission into one of the top schools because his request was late,admissions had been closed.He bumped into Adm.Pereira at the WNC mess one morning,as the Adm. had come in for medical treatment.The good Adm. enquired about his daughter's admission and on being told that it had been rejected "pleaded'" for the TC.That evening he returned to the Cmde.'s cabin and told him that the admission to the school had been done and that he should go the next morning and meet the Sister Principal.When he did so the next day,the Sister Principal related what had happened.Adm.Pereira had visited her and she had told him the same ,that there was no chance as admissions were closed.He then said to her,"Sister,I'm dying of cancer,I'll be dead in a couple of months.Can you not do this great favour for me?" She couldn't disappoint the admiral.

[abhik]

... and the requirement for the LUH is 384 nos. HAL is going to develop and manufacture 187 of these while the rest being brought from outside (and not a "large proportion").

My calculator says 384 - 187 = 197.

The project is supposed to be completed by 2016 and IIRC there is a penalty clause as well if HAL doesn't deliver on time.

IIRC the penalty clause is that HAL will produce more of the foreign ones instead of its own design. Which is really no penalty for HAL. It could in fact be more lucrative.

[Sagar G]

My calculator says 384 - 187 = 197.

Difference of 10 might be a deal breaker for you but no one in the MoD or the armed forces see it as a wastage of resources by HAL, so do explain in detail why you are sticking with that thought.

IIRC the penalty clause is that HAL will produce more of the foreign ones instead of its own design. Which is really no penalty for HAL. It could in fact be more lucrative.

Instead of giving such one liners do tell about the thought process that went into reaching this conclusion.

[Philip]

SRai,et al,the French have developed a new torpedo that does exactly what some have been asking for,but for a different reason.Their super-torp has massive hours of endurance,because the development of soft kill countermeasures has been so effective that a torpedo might be seduced a few times to miss the target,but with the new endurance parameters,can circle,attack again and again until the target is hit,rather like two players at the French Open each waiting to outlast the other! This has also brought into the spectrum of anti-torp weapon systems several new hard-kill options to defeat such intelligent torpedoes.Mini-anti-torp torps,saturation attack by Russian MBUs,etc.This is perhaps the most exciting and challenging aspect of naval warfare today.

[tsarkar]

Gents, Was thinking yesterday about what IN should be getting around in 2012 in terms of fleet strength...The above is a massive combat boost potential IMO especially in a qualitative sense given the capabilities that these platforms bring to the IN...

Tsarkar sir...would be kind enough to have a look at the above and comment on what kind of combat potential increase we are looking at for the IN I feel 2012 is a golden year for the IN when it comes to quality and quantity of platforms delievered...

Andy B, a good Navy always tries to achieve Sea Control, that allows usage of the sea for any purpose militarily or economically for the benefit of the nation. For example, drilling for oil offshore of Vietnam. For sea control, one needs reach and presence. In simple terms, going there and staying there. Staying power is defined as endurance and ability to fight it out across a broad spectrum of threats.

On the Eastern seas, the Arihant and Chakra submarines along with VLS equipped Ranvir/Ranvijay and Prithvi equipped OPVs will project power afar. The Shivaliks will provide multi-functional capabilities like ASW and Fleet AD. The Kukhri/Kora will defend our Island territories and scout for the main fleet.

On the Western seas, the OPVs will protect SLOC. The Sindhu's/Talwar's and their land attack Klubs will enable power projection over land. The Vikramaditya will provide mobile protection to the fleet. The Godavaris/Brahmaputras/T209s will provide significant ASW capabilities. The Delhi's will provide fleet air defence. Missile boats will scout and attack whenever needed.

Amphibious capabilities exist on both coasts. Logistics are doubled with 4 tankers in service.

[John]

the cage is likely to protect the system in case of brahmos missiles being loaded dockside swinging the wrong way. the missiles are located between the twin RBU and the SAM, so its a tricky place to be in.

gd I thin in this case it will be ssn 27 sizzlers or klubs rather than brahmos

The launcher system can accommodate Brahmos but it likely require some software level integration.

his has also brought into the spectrum of anti-torp weapon systems several new hard-kill options to defeat such intelligent torpedoes.Mini-anti-torp torps,saturation attack by Russian MBUs,etc.This is perhaps the most exciting and challenging aspect of naval warfare today.

If travels too slow a vessel armed with RPK-8 should be able to travel parallel and intercept them before they do any harm.

[chackojoseph]

Indian and Maldives Naval forces to conduct 3 day surveillance operation

[AbhiJ]

INS Satpura

[img http://www.navy.mil/management/photodb/ ... 81-000.jpg[/img]

[AbhiJ]

INS Vikramaditya's second batch of crew complete training

http://indrus.in/articles/2012/04/06/in ... 15392.html

[AbhiJ]

The container terminal of Larsen and Toubro's Kattupalli shipyard-cum-captive port is all set to commence operations and awaiting communication from the Customs Department notifying the terminal.

A company note says the Rs.4,675-crore project is being implemented by L&T Shipbuilding Ltd., a joint venture between L&T and Tamil Nadu Industrial Development Corporation . It will build commercial ships, specialised cargo ships, defence ships, including submarines, offshore platforms and floating platform-cum-storage facility and heavy engineering fabrication and component production for ship building.

http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/che ... 321473.ece

[Philip]

Beautiful pic of the INS Satpura AbhiJ! It will give us an excellent opportunity to examine her range of sensors,worth listing out and comparing with the Shivalik and Talwars.

[Altair]

AbhiJ
Please put a smaller pic. The big pic is screwing the page alignment.
Thanks

[member_23061]

Newb question. Why is the radar tilted on the Satputra?