Holder has opened two civil rights investigations in Missouri -- one into whether Wilson violated Brown's civil rights, the other into the police department's overall track record with minorities..."These twin investigations have been rigorous and they have been independent from the beginning. Now, while federal civil rights law imposes an extremely high legal bar in these types of cases, we have resisted prejudging the evidence or forming premature conclusions," Holder said. "And as these investigations proceed, I want to assure the American people that they will continue to be conducted thoroughly and in a timely manner, following the facts and the law wherever they may lead."
But usually, these lead to far worse consequences for the perp than if he had been indicted by the Gland July: he would probably have been found Not Guilty in a trial because of 'lack of evidence' or something. Here the standards are different: Violation of the Right 2 Life is a slam-dunk.
Once that is done, the civil suit can go forward and slam the city.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 02 Dec 2014 22:04
by ramana
It could also be a way to show GOTUS is 'doing something".
For starters the Ferguson PD should be disbanded and reconstituted.
Excess use of force, insensitive to victim's dead bodies etc. etc.
Next St Louis County PD for lying to public about 'apology' from St Louis Rams!
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 02:17
by UlanBatori
I have not managed to comprehend the "body lay in the street for 4.5 hours" thing. Why? At first I though the incident occurred late at night, but it turns out it was midday.
Ambulances didn't have gas?
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 05:38
by saip
Almost. The shooting happened at 12, the investigative team which was 30 miles away was informed at 12:30 and when the hearse did arrive at 2:30 they found 'hostile' crowd and so needed a SWAT team which arrived at 3:20 and the body removed at 4 pm. Obviously there was only one investigative team and even if there was no hostile crowd, the body would have been removed after atleast 3 hours.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 06:07
by UlanBatori
Dang turdwhirlders!
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 06:14
by Raja Bose
LokeshC wrote:If I came across a teenager who thinks Might is Right, I will try my best to correct him and make him a productive member of the society.
If I know that the teenager is dangerous, I will only approach him when he is cooler spirits.
Physical force as a means of control should be the last thing for an LEO in any civilized society, let alone pull a gun and shoot him dead.
What if said teenager is trying to throttle you?
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 08:54
by saip
I do not know how many of you had/have 17 year olds. I thought about it. Would my son when he was 17, stolen cigars from a convenience store? My answer was no. MB did not deserve to die. But if his mother/father/step father find no problem with that I am sorry I am not wasting any sympathy. Have they even apologized to the shop keeper? Mother saw the video and stated it is an 18 second video and you can not judge her son on that basis. But she never expressed remorse about her son assaulting the shop keeper nor seemed surprised about her 17 year old son stealing cigars. If only she took care of him when raising him this thing would not have happened. Now city of Ferguson I am sure will pay millions in a civil suit.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 09:45
by member_22733
Why O Why do learned mullahs out here need to drag my mush back into active posting. I was happily lurking
Raja Bose wrote: What if said teenager is trying to throttle you?
In India, there are a lot of violent juveniles, how do cops handle them when the throttle one of the cops?
1) Patrol in groups more than 2.
2) Dont let the situation escalate into a life or death struggle. i.e. reduce the probability of ending up in such a situation and at the same time being an effective police force.
3) if there is a situation that causes a life or death struggle, then one can use lethal force. This situation is the last step in the ladder of escalation.
The usual brocedure (aka SOP) goes like this: Cop puts himself/herself into a situation that he or she *perceives* to be life or death, and then proceeds to use lethal force. This escalation to lethal force happens so fast that the "victim" probably does not even have enough time to process that they are getting to meet their maker.
Since blacks are "big, scary and dangerous", the cops "feel" that they are dealing with life or death even if they *perceive* any hint of aggression (like putting your hands in your pocket to take out your id).
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 10:02
by Shreeman
saip wrote:I do not know how many of you had/have 17 year olds. I thought about it. Would my son when he was 17, stolen cigars from a convenience store? My answer was no. MB did not deserve to die. But if his mother/father/step father find no problem with that I am sorry I am not wasting any sympathy. Have they even apologized to the shop keeper? Mother saw the video and stated it is an 18 second video and you can not judge her son on that basis. But she never expressed remorse about her son assaulting the shop keeper nor seemed surprised about her 17 year old son stealing cigars. If only she took care of him when raising him this thing would not have happened. Now city of Ferguson I am sure will pay millions in a civil suit.
saip: This isnt about your personal biases. Its also not just about Brown. More broadly, this thread attempts to "understand the US". Something that Indian populace shows gross ignorance about. By applying an equal-equal argument between your son and Brown, you are lowering the discussion to personal ego/preferences and related attacks. These then attract more rehashing/revisits of old positions. The media propaganda is powerful enough to dehumanise anyone. At some point (if you dont want to be seen taking away Brown's right to life) its best to step away.
Lokesh chandra: had a good rest?
I would point folks in general to the canadian tar sands pipeline PR folks strategy. It is not an uncommonly employed one. By using distractions and unrelated minutia, the discussion drowns in noise and no one is any wiser about the truth.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 10:31
by member_22733
Shreemanji,
It was good... for the short time it lasted .
Mean-e-while kids, gather around, let me tell you about some piskological study that I came across (dont have the reference with me):
Consider a biased game. The game is very complex and requires brains to play ,but its slightly biased towards one set of participants (the participants dont know about the bias). After a few games, the "winners" get an artificial sense of superiority. They believe they are winning because they are special, they are better than the losers and that the game is totally fair. The "losers" (against whom the game is biased again) meanwhile end up getting frustrated, start protesting, getting angry etc.
After a few generations of "winners", the winners enjoy something called privilege. They dont know that the game is biased towards them. For some miraculous reason they keep winning, and hence, for some reasons of their own doing the losers keep losing. It must be the losers fault.
There is more to the story. When I have time.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 03 Dec 2014 13:48
by Jaeger
LokeshC wrote:
Consider a biased game. The game is very complex and requires brains to play ,but its slightly biased towards one set of participants (the participants dont know about the bias). After a few games, the "winners" get an artificial sense of superiority. They believe they are winning because they are special, they are better than the losers and that the game is totally fair. The "losers" (against whom the game is biased again) meanwhile end up getting frustrated, start protesting, getting angry etc.
After a few generations of "winners", the winners enjoy something called privilege. They dont know that the game is biased towards them. For some miraculous reason they keep winning, and hence, for some reasons of their own doing the losers keep losing. It must be the losers fault.
Should be required viewing before any discussion about Race/Gender biases. A beautiful demonstration of how power structures are created and self-perpetuated by all involved, and after a point, with so little self-awareness by those in the position of Institutional Privilege.
There's actually a point where an accurate physical description ("brown eyes") becomes a term of abuse. The implications are obvious to the most feeble intellect. Or should be.
Institutional or Situational Privilege is the most insidious and pervasive form of bias and the hardest to erase. When Privilege is the norm, questioning the status quo creates powerful reactionary forces that use negative stereotypes to protect the status quo and the position of Privilege:
"Black on black crime" --> Whites are not responsible for Black killings, they are doing it all the time, their historical context is irrelevant.
"Her clothes meant she was asking for it" --> Male sexuality can exist per the status quo, our patriarchy disregards the existence of female sexual expression, therefore it must remain unexpressed. Or else our uncontrollable male sexuality will be forced to rape you.
"Homosexuality is against nature" --> Because babies.
Some years back, someone on the Australia thread was talking about how terribly criminal the Abos are. Drunk layabouts etc. is what they were called. I tried to point out that the person concerned was talking about a group of people that had existed as a distinct, more or less unbroken culture for 40-60,000 years. And then in the space of 200 (0.5% of their existence!) years everything was taken from them. Their continent, their lands, their way of life and even their children. Their lives as a People. And then you educate them in English and suddenly they're supposed to be "normal" citizens in a "civilised" society that looks upon them, their colour, their culture, their entire background as some sort of joke? Or tourist material?
Dirty. Thieving. Here's your Social Security cheque. Untrustworthy. Heathen. Here's your free High School education. Lying. Savage. Now live like a civilised man. Nigger.
Anyway. I'm out.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 04 Dec 2014 08:43
by member_22733
^^^ That one is pretty good.
I think it was this one (i got it from one of the beeyemdubya forums and they were riling on how angry this study makes them).
Regarding Grand Juries... wrote:
Just got off one at the end of November. The summons was sent Certified Mail, so I had to sign for it and everything rather than simply pitching it and saying "damn the man."
We were briefly (<5 minutes) interviewed by Assistant State's Attorneys. The questions consisted of name, current employer, "Will you be compensated by your employer for serving," and "have you or anyone you know recently been the victim of a crime." So long as the last two were "yes" and "no" respectively, you were in (plus a few people who weren't compensated for the whole month). There was so little screening, in fact, one of the County Jail's correctional officers was selected -- as in, he works at the Jail immediately next to the Courthouse we were serving at.
Our GJ was 16 members plus 12 alternates. Normally 10 alternates are selected, but November was expected to have more out-sicks and vacations/travel etc.
The first day, a State's Attorney briefed us for 4-6 hours on where a grand jury fits into the process as a whole -- a very basic diagram of arrest, charge, try, etc. with additional information regarding how long post-arrest the State has to indict and so forth. We were also briefed on what constitutes, for example, an aggravated sexual assault as opposed to a simple sexual assault.
The same State's Attorney also advised us against asking questions. While the jurors are technically allowed to ask whatever they want, the SA begged us to not ****** up their cases by asking something that would end up on the record.
By the end of the month, we'd done the better part of 1,000 individual actions -- subpoenas, indictments, and witness testimonies. None of the indicted were ham sandwiches, as well as I can remember, but eventually the whole stupid process of rubberstamping this shit started to blend together and for all I know, we did.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 06 Dec 2014 11:25
by ramana
Jean Valjean was lucky to go to jail for stealing bread. In US he would have been shot multiple times.
But wait Jean Valjean was white so may not be shot.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 06 Dec 2014 11:49
by Pratyush
In US Jean Valjean would be black and Javert will shoot him. Regardless of the debt to society being paid by Jean Valjean. Also Javert will not drown himself, he will just walk away.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 11 Dec 2014 04:08
by UlanBatori
Javert would have become Le Prosecutore Publique de Southern Manhattan, or a Harvard Professor of Law now known as Dique Javert De Hahvahd (c comments).
Before his book "Go Ahead, Steal Bread, Ah Need The Notches on Mah 14-inch Barrel" gets turned into a blockbuster move.
One thing we should understand - Les Miserable is one of the best xtian (apology?) novels ever written. I am sure there are several in our colloquial literature which will come up to - nay - exceed the standard set by Hugo, but for the wide dissemination. Victor Hugo is extremely critical of the communists in this book. That is an aside though; a side alley so to speak. The meat is the xtian concept of redemption in one's life. See, in xtianity, there are no second chances. Either you screwed up and it is eternal hell or as a redeemed you enjoy eternal happiness in paradise (not lost).
In any case, Hugo's writings were very suportive of xitianity. IMHO, he was a master writer/xtian thinker/scholar of the highest order.
Where are they in modern India/hindu/saraswati-sindhu-ganga-gOdavarai-tungabhadra-kAvEri?
I do not think anything can be done because of law of limitation. Except in CA where he being sued by a woman who was a minor at the time of the offence and the limitatioI n does not seem to apply. Too many years have passed. I used to like him.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 12 Dec 2014 08:28
by Karan M
But goes to show about the claims of "Indian men are xyz" as versus land of free and fair hain jee..
This guy beats any venal Indian politician hollow.
Jonathan Allen slugged Deputy Inspector Andrew Capul in the face, ambushing him from behind Thursday as the police official, dressed in uniform, talked to protesters near West 125th Street at the Adam Clayton Powell State Office Building around 9:30 p.m., police said.
...
Thursday’s cop-punch was the third in a week.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 13 Dec 2014 19:51
by vishvak
Thankfully, USA media houses are not running campaigns about what is mother said with tears in her eyes, what should police do when mobs are pelting stones at the police - or even arbitrarily and attacking national monuments, is the majority responsible for that sucker punch, is it okay to do such a thing after shouting some slogans of some kind, was he wearing anything like threads on his right hand (like Hindoos do), etc etc.
Capul was able to stay on his feet after he was struck and helped arrest Allen. The officer was treated for swelling and bruising.
Allen, 31, was arraigned Friday in Manhattan Criminal Court on assault charges and held without bail.
..
Last Saturday, Williams encouraged gangsters to partake in more protests, tweeting, “Most powerful moment: a brother from the Bloods came up 2 me & said we’re here 4 the movement, ‘for peace’ & ‘I wish more homies were here.’ ”
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 14 Dec 2014 00:14
by JE Menon
LokeshC - your post is intended to be sarcastic (I think), but it may not come out that way to a passing reader... Best to modify somehow. Read as a normal sentence it is highly inflammatory.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 14 Dec 2014 02:20
by Karan M
It is inflammatory even otherwise, because he is unable to respond logically to facts which refute his claims. Ergo, he responds with projected racism and a tendency to project his thought process onto others. The logical thing to do would be to admit earlier claims of such things are impossible and similar implied stuff was just plain wrong.
Note, the above report clearly shows there is a subset of individuals who clearly dont give a fig for law and order, and are willing to go to grave lengths to provoke confrontation, despite the claims by LokeshC etc that such is very unlikely because its akin to a death sentence.
Only goes to show irrespective of claims by posters who assume they know all there is about racism, law enforcement, US and what not, facts may be a different thing altogether.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 14 Dec 2014 02:26
by Karan M
vishvak wrote:Thankfully, USA media houses are not running campaigns about what is mother said with tears in her eyes, what should police do when mobs are pelting stones at the police - or even arbitrarily and attacking national monuments, is the majority responsible for that sucker punch, is it okay to do such a thing after shouting some slogans of some kind, was he wearing anything like threads on his right hand (like Hindoos do), etc etc.
Capul was able to stay on his feet after he was struck and helped arrest Allen. The officer was treated for swelling and bruising.
Allen, 31, was arraigned Friday in Manhattan Criminal Court on assault charges and held without bail.
..
Last Saturday, Williams encouraged gangsters to partake in more protests, tweeting, “Most powerful moment: a brother from the Bloods came up 2 me & said we’re here 4 the movement, ‘for peace’ & ‘I wish more homies were here.’ ”
On the one hand, a militarized LE system which usually responds with overwhelming force. In recent days a 12 yr old white kid was shot, and officersvwent onto justify it..net, its not racism alone but a complex interplay of factors including easy abailabiljty of weapons and the gung ho culture inculcated in the LE side. On the other side, you have these opportunists who want to provoke even further conflict irrespective of the consequences on the average black male who may get picked on because gang nembers are infiltrating protests. Its a mess all around.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 14 Dec 2014 03:57
by Shreeman
Karan,
The 12 year old was not white. The shooting of Tamir Rice has homicide attached to it now.
Let me be even more frank and definitive. I am a Gandhian. I am obsessive compulsive -- this is a clinical determination. Before I get angry, I will faint. Cant help it. If you slap me, I am obligated to turn the other cheek and let you slsp me until your hasnds get blistered. So when push comes to shove, you can accuse me of beijng insane before you find me breaking a "rule".
Now lets turn to the matter at hand, I cant count the number of "insufficient evidence" letters. One came this week. Now if you take the matter to a kangaroo court, the other party is always found guilty. Noit because they are doing me a favor, not because they want rto uphold a law, but because the legal system will lose its foundation if you determine otherwise.
Do court judgments matter? No. Its business as usual. Will more court judgments change anything? No. It will continue to be this way.
The OCD will make sure that I keep pushing. But most people, normal people are not this way. Riots happen in India for far more triviasl reasons. Anger is a thing.
Starting the history where the black man hit the officer doesnt change a thing. In the overall picture of the society the 10% ( indian muslims or US blacks) are subvertive or the lkaw enforcement (AFSDA? or US SWAT no knock shootings) are thugs. The society suffers either way.
Have a public trial, wash the dirty laundry.
And if this doesnt convince you thern nothing will. I wish you luck.
Edited: to reflect a correction. I dont seem to read like anything anymore, not just news.
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 14 Dec 2014 04:26
by Karan M
Shreeman, TBH i have no idea why you posted that missive in order to convince me of something i dont contest. Its hardly up for debate that the US LE and judicial system has systemic flaws. Ditto about where power is centralized. Chrus Rock gave a scathing interview recently about racial relations. Richard Pryor way back in 78 was talking of chokes.
Equally true though that there are elements within the black community who are violent and that tends to have repercussions as well. The historical reasons stuff only goes so far, same as in India where we can come up with many reasons, most germaine to whit, about why things are the way they are. But somewhere alng the line, there is a need to ensure innocent folks irrespective of skjn color dont get victimized. I daresay the gangster who slapped the cop would equally pick on some asian and thats the crux of the issue. Good luck in explaining to the indian and asian folks why they get smacked around and their shops looted because of two other groups having issues with each other.
Anger based justifications whether allowed as the norm for either LE or xyz folks (whatever color) mean the end of stable society. In India we are seeing the effects of that already where some folks are more equal than others based on voting patterns etc. Thats just a slippery slope.
LokeshC wrote:/SARC Yep. These black buggers. Wish they were exterminated from planet earth. The earth would be so much safer place without these pests around. /SARC
JEM saar, Can you pls delete the post? It was sarcasm but I do see your point. I am not able to delete or modify it. Apologies if I offended anyone.
Done - JE Menon
Re: Understanding the US-2
Posted: 20 Dec 2014 11:12
by Prem Kumar
Two absolutely must see videos by Rajiv Malhotra. In the 1st video, he explains crisply how to understand the "pop culture" versus the "deep culture" of USA. The 2nd video is about how the "India Studies" programs in the US work
The man's clarity of thought & his ability to articulate it is astonishing!
India would no doubt welcome a reduction in military aid to Pakistan, and the U.S. could use this as leverage to pressure India to allow the Kashmiris to vote on their future, which would very likely be a vote for independence.These two actions might do far more to enhance Pakistan’s stability, and to insure its friendship, than the billions of dollars that America now pays like a ransom.
What is left to say ... They want to trade Kashmir for peace and will have neither in the end and why should Indians bear the cost for improving US-Pak relations hanji?
I do not trust her not to make another somersault but I have to acknowledge Madam UnFair. She is the only one who has reached the correct conclusion. The Bakis will not rest till Bakistan is destroyed. No coercion or inducement or logic will work.
KUALA LUMPUR: Giving a new twist to the MH370 missing saga, a former French airline boss has claimed that the Malaysia Airlines flight was shot down by the US military near a U.S. military base on the remote island of Diego Garcia in the Indian Ocean.
Marc Dugain, the former chief executive of now-defunct Proteus Airlines, said the military feared the flight had been taken over by hackers and was about to be used in a terror attack.
In an article written in French magazine Paris Match, Dugain, who is also a novelist (like Le Mishra Pankaj Gasfarti), said the islanders in the Maldives near Diego Garcia had told him they they saw the aircraft flying low.
Dugain also claimed that a British intelligence officer had warned him against probing the missing aircraft
MH370 vanished mysteriously about an hour after taking off for Beijing from Kuala Lumpur shortly after midnight March 8.
The Boeing 777-200ER was scheduled to land in Beijing the same morning. The 227 passengers on board included five Indians, 154 Chinese and 38 Malaysians.
