Pakistan arms sales, ops, doctrine, etc

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 25 Jun 2010 14:16

Three F-16s are scheduled to arrive in Pakistan on June 26, with 15 more to be delivered later this year and next, Air Force Maj. Todd Robbins, the Pakistan country director in the office of the undersecretary of the Air Force for international affairs, said in an interview with American Forces Press Service.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 28 Jun 2010 12:03

Pakistan Navy inducts two U.S. maritime patrol aircraft

anupmisra · Post by **anupmisra** » 28 Jun 2010 17:28

Kailash wrote:New F-16s to Pakistan

This may cause some worries and alarm bells to start ringing in the higher echelons of the US State Department:
PAF to use F-16s as it wishes

“Our mission is to maintain peace with honour in the region but should this primary effort of maintaining peace fails, the PAF will employ all its assets, including these aircraft, to defend the country against external and internal security threats,”

the air chief said the acquisition of hi-tech Falcons would neither spark an arms race nor alter the balance of power in the region. He observed that it would rather restore the balance of power as the neighbours already had hi-tech aircraft in their inventory.

To another query, he maintained that there was no restriction on the use of the new Falcons against any specific country.

“I had mentioned during the rolling out ceremony of the F-16s in the US that the process of trust building will start when I will see these aircraft flying in Pakistani air space by Pakistani pilots,” he recalled.

US Ambassador Anne W Patterson was also present at the impressive ceremony held at the newly-furbished and the most modern airbase of the country.

US Air Chief Norton A Schwartz said the induction of state-of-the-art F-16s with night vision devices would effectively enhance the PAF’s capability in destroying extremists.

US Ambassador Anne W Patterson said that it was an important day in the relations between the two countries, which are allies in the war against terrorism. “We have seen the PAF fighting against extremists and making advancements,” she observed.She recalled that four years ago, the United States and the Government of Pakistan had signed a Letter of Agreement for the acquisition of 18 new F-16 aircraft by Pakistan to support this country’s counter-terrorism efforts.

So, it was never about fighting the bad tellibunnies but all about "restoring the balance of power" with India. Meanwhile, we continue to get fooled by the pajis.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 28 Jun 2010 18:02

We have seen American assurances when Pakistan ostensibly joined CENTO against the Russians and SEATO against the Chinese. We heard the promises given by Eisenhower in 1954 when the US signed a Mutual Defence Assistance Agreement with Pakistan:

What we are proposing to do, and what Pakistan is agreeing to, is not directed in any way against India. And I am confirming publicly that if our aid to any country, including Pakistan, is directed against another in aggression, I will undertake immediate action both within and without the UN to thwart such aggression.

Those arms and ammunition were never used against communists; they were used only against India, Afghanistan and their own Balochis and Bengalis. In fact, the Pakistanis went to bed with the Chinese Communists even while enjoying the benefits of these Agreements.

The MEA has far more intelligence and is not fooled; but, it probably feels we have no leverage to stop those FMSs going to Pakistan.

Rupak · Post by **Rupak** » 28 Jun 2010 18:22

To the American's credit, they did impose an arms embargo in 1965 and more or less maintained restrictions well into the late 1970s.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 28 Jun 2010 18:27

Well it is the sovereign right of Pakistan to use the arms they bought (purchased/donated) in the best interest of the country unless there is an explicit clause which states F-16 will only be used by PAF in anti-insurgency operation.

If they think F-16 can restore the balance of power in the region so be it.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 28 Jun 2010 19:34

This is naked truth,and there is no hardcore official protest from dilli on the sales of these aircrafts to extremist paki army against democratic India..
seems like powerful people at dilli had sold themselves

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 28 Jun 2010 21:22

Rupak wrote:To the American's credit, they did impose an arms embargo in 1965 and more or less maintained restrictions well into the late 1970s.

That is not the point. The first war in 1965 gave the confidence to Pakistan that other nations will help Pakistan at times of war and all the other muslim nations will support it against India. Pakistan was shwed that there is no punishment if they are belligerent towards India. This was the prime objective of the US/UK powers. Also they made sure that the confidence in the Indian economy in the eyes of the arab nations was lowered so that they moved away from rupee trading to dollar trading.
All other wars had similar objectives.

Avinandan · Post by **Avinandan** » 01 Jul 2010 19:34

Pakistan is developing a predator like UAV/UCAV called Burraq that is more or less based upon Selex Falco UAV & Pegasus HALE UAV.
Link : http://tiny.cc/PakistaniUAV_Burraq

Not sure how Israel indirectly gets linked to it...

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 01 Jul 2010 19:46

Avinandan wrote:Pakistan is developing a predator like UAV/UCAV called Burraq that is more or less based upon Selex Falco UAV & Pegasus HALE UAV.
Link : http://tiny.cc/PakistaniUAV_Burraq

Not sure how Israel indirectly gets linked to it...

You mean Turkey/China are developing of a Predator-like UAV/UCAV and Pakistan is providing generous amounts of paint, sourced directly from China of course.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Jul 2010 03:16

Pakis are looking for more brand new F-16s..14 to be precise. the excuse about using them for fighting Taliban extremists is also cleared up by some Paki official.

link

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is negotiating with the United States to buy 14 additional F-16 fighter planes, Pakistan defence officials said on Sunday, following talks aimed at reversing tempestuous ties between the allies.

The United States and Pakistan have agreed to fast-track pending Pakistani requests for military equipment as the two step up security cooperation, Pakistan's foreign minister said on Wednesday during a high-profile visit to Washington.

A senior Pakistani defence official told Reuters that Pakistan was asking for 14 new F-16 planes.

“Talks are underway and we're hoping to get them at a low price,” the official, who requested not to be identified, said.

Pakistan is an important US ally in the battle against al Qaeda and the Taliban in neighbouring Afghanistan.

The United States has provided F-16 fighter jets to Islamabad and Pakistan's navy chief was in Washington this month to discuss the handover in August of a refurbished US frigate.

Washington said this month it would deliver 1,000 laser-guided bomb kits to Pakistan within weeks and is considering more weapons sales to help the Pakistani air force crack down on insurgents in the Afghanistan border region.

In early 2010, the United States approved the delivery of 12 Lockheed Martin Corp's F-16C and 6 F-16D planes, scheduled to begin from June 2010.

This delivery to Pakistan will bring its inventory of the planes to 54. If a new deal is approved, Pakistan's arsenal of F-16s, including refurbished fighters, will amount to 79, defence officials said. Pakistan has been operating F-16s since 1982.

Another official said Pakistan's interest in new F-16s was a bid to match India's firepower.

“Look at the rival (India). How many fighter jets they are purchasing and if you're getting them at a low price then why not?” he said.

India plans to buy 126 air and ground attack fighters, which will elevate its air force to super-power status, with deployments planned near the borders with Pakistan and China, officials say.

One bone of contention between Washington and Islamabad has been a delay in about $2 billion in military aid owed by the United States to Pakistan under a programme called the Coalition Support Fund.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said a “substantial” amount of the money would be paid by the end of April, with Washington promising the remainder by the end of June.

Airavat · Post by **Airavat** » 02 Jul 2010 07:05

Foreign forces spreading terror in South Waziristan

Briefing the media in Dera Ismail Khan, the operations commander, Major-General Nawaz Khan, said that foreign forces were responsible for the situation that had developed in the region, adding that the Pakistan Army had also arrested foreigners and seized foreign-made arms and ammunition from their possession.

Separately, Peshawar Corps Commander Lieutenant General Asif Yasin Malik said that effective measures had been taken for the smooth and dignified return of South Waziristan’s IDPs.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 02 Jul 2010 07:20

Kartik wrote:Pakis are looking for more brand new F-16s..14 to be precise. the excuse about using them for fighting Taliban extremists is also cleared up by some Paki official.

link

ISLAMABAD: Pakistan is negotiating with the United States to buy 14 additional F-16 fighter planes, Pakistan defence officials said on Sunday, following talks aimed at reversing tempestuous ties between the allies.

The United States and Pakistan have agreed to fast-track pending Pakistani requests for military equipment as the two step up security cooperation, Pakistan's foreign minister said on Wednesday during a high-profile visit to Washington.

A senior Pakistani defence official told Reuters that Pakistan was asking for 14 new F-16 planes.

“Talks are underway and we're hoping to get them at a low price,” the official, who requested not to be identified, said.

Pakistan is an important US ally in the battle against al Qaeda and the Taliban in neighbouring Afghanistan.

The United States has provided F-16 fighter jets to Islamabad and Pakistan's navy chief was in Washington this month to discuss the handover in August of a refurbished US frigate.

Washington said this month it would deliver 1,000 laser-guided bomb kits to Pakistan within weeks and is considering more weapons sales to help the Pakistani air force crack down on insurgents in the Afghanistan border region.

In early 2010, the United States approved the delivery of 12 Lockheed Martin Corp's F-16C and 6 F-16D planes, scheduled to begin from June 2010.

This delivery to Pakistan will bring its inventory of the planes to 54. If a new deal is approved, Pakistan's arsenal of F-16s, including refurbished fighters, will amount to 79, defence officials said. Pakistan has been operating F-16s since 1982.

Another official said Pakistan's interest in new F-16s was a bid to match India's firepower.

“Look at the rival (India). How many fighter jets they are purchasing and if you're getting them at a low price then why not?” he said.

India plans to buy 126 air and ground attack fighters, which will elevate its air force to super-power status, with deployments planned near the borders with Pakistan and China, officials say.

One bone of contention between Washington and Islamabad has been a delay in about $2 billion in military aid owed by the United States to Pakistan under a programme called the Coalition Support Fund.

Pakistani Foreign Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi said a “substantial” amount of the money would be paid by the end of April, with Washington promising the remainder by the end of June.

1000 Laserguided Bombs

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 02 Jul 2010 08:14

biswas wrote:
You mean Turkey/China are developing of a Predator-like UAV/UCAV and Pakistan is providing generous amounts of paint, sourced directly from China of course.

Doesn't matter what their contribution would be. What matters is that they are going to have it!

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 02 Jul 2010 11:14

Sry a Bit OT just came across this in Wiki

Link

which says

...The most interesting fact is that it can be used by Pakistan Air Force to land or take off many Fighter Jets.....

Is It true ?

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Jul 2010 11:21

parshuram wrote:Sry a Bit OT just came across this in Wiki

Link

which says

...The most interesting fact is that it can be used by Pakistan Air Force to land or take off many Fighter Jets.....
Is It true ?

Boss , they landed a F-7 in 2002, but then how do get an aircraft to take without Fuel Dumps, Weapons bays, Engineering staff etc, and you certainly cant park aircraft and coordinate take off's and Landings without an ATC and neessecary infrastructure. And how do you ensure that a 367Km Highway is free of FOD? it was just a publicity stunt by the PAF which the IAF showed how may loopholes are there in

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 02 Jul 2010 11:26

Boss , they landed a F-7 in 2002, but then how do get an aircraft to take without Fuel Dumps, Weapons bays, Engineering staff etc, and you certainly cant park aircraft and do take off's and Landings. And how do you ensure that a 367Km Highway is free of FOD? it was just a publicity stunt by the PAF which the IAF showed how may loopholes are there in

hmm so they can .. You bomb crap out of there airbases still they have Tracks to land in emergency ... i would still say impressive ..... and am amazed by the quality of roads there . This is indeed strategic plus point they certainly have a rapid transit network ...

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jul 2010 11:41

yes i am sure hyundai did a good job on it. notice how they are starkly empty. no trucks. one or two cars. the level of economic activity shows up in that.

you will also be impressed by the posh areas in most pakistani cities - their elites really live well and have the connections to make sure no unsightly encroachments and slums appear in such areas. some areas of lahore, islamabad and karachi are definitely on a par with very developed countries.

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/daw ... rway-zj-06

which doesnt change the fact that 180 mil brain dead people are still running around looking to slay every kafir they run across.

ajit_tr · Post by **ajit_tr** » 04 Jul 2010 15:56

High tech air defence system to be integrated into PAF in next few days

ISLAMABAD: State of the art air defence system will be integrated into Pakistan Air Force (PAF) within a few days.

Defence sources told this news agency that air defence system had been named SPADA and Pakistan had acquired it from Italy. This system will become fully operational next week and it will help boost capabilities of PAF.

Sources told radar system had also been modernized in the new air defence system and it would enhance the combat might of PAF.

A special ceremony would be held in the next week for inclusion of this system in PAF. Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar had already informed president Asif Ali Zardari and prime minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani about this system and they had also said new air defence system was need of the country.

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 04 Jul 2010 16:25

ajit_tr wrote:High tech air defence system to be integrated into PAF in next few days

ISLAMABAD: State of the art air defence system will be integrated into Pakistan Air Force (PAF) within a few days.

Defence sources told this news agency that air defence system had been named SPADA and Pakistan had acquired it from Italy. This system will become fully operational next week and it will help boost capabilities of PAF.

Sources told radar system had also been modernized in the new air defence system and it would enhance the combat might of PAF.

A special ceremony would be held in the next week for inclusion of this system in PAF. Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar had already informed president Asif Ali Zardari and prime minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani about this system and they had also said new air defence system was need of the country.

What ij dij? Chini-teknaalaajiji not good enough?

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 04 Jul 2010 16:35

Samay wrote:This is naked truth,and there is no hardcore official protest from dilli on the sales of these aircrafts to extremist paki army against democratic India..
seems like powerful people at dilli had sold themselves

We have protested against such transfer of arms in the past & the result is for all to see. I believe New Delhi knows such protests will invite nothing but lip service from the US, so they probably decided to be quiet this time. Hopefully (and I believe this is the case), the quietness does not mean that India will take this nonsense lying down. The retribution will come at the time of our choosing.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 04 Jul 2010 16:37

ajit_tr wrote:High tech air defence system to be integrated into PAF in next few days

ISLAMABAD: State of the art air defence system will be integrated into Pakistan Air Force (PAF) within a few days.

Defence sources told this news agency that air defence system had been named SPADA and Pakistan had acquired it from Italy. This system will become fully operational next week and it will help boost capabilities of PAF.

Sources told radar system had also been modernized in the new air defence system and it would enhance the combat might of PAF.

A special ceremony would be held in the next week for inclusion of this system in PAF. Air Chief Marshall Rao Qamar had already informed president Asif Ali Zardari and prime minister Syed Yousuf Raza Gilani about this system and they had also said new air defence system was need of the country.

I'm sure this Italian system when painted green will provide awesome defence against Predators and Hellfires which blatantly violate the Virginity of Pakhanistan. I'm sure the President and Prime-Molester are fully aware of the air defence needs of the country

What is SPADA by the way, is it by any chance Spare Predator And Destroy Ahmediya?

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 04 Jul 2010 17:23

...The most interesting fact is that it can be used by Pakistan Air Force to land or take off many Fighter Jets.....

Is It true ?

[/quote]

Very likely, dual use. This strategy is used quite commonly in certain european countries as the russkies object to making military airfields.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Jul 2010 17:29

China-Pakistan Joint Exercise

The third joint military exercise between Pakistan and China is of profound importance in consolidating the friendship between the two countries and their armies, upgrading their capabilities in fighting terrorism together and safeguarding regional peace and stability, People's Liberation Army (PLA) Lanzhou Land Military Commander Lieutenant General Wang Guosheng said on Saturday.

He made these comments at the opening ceremony of YOUYI-III, the third joint exercise between the special forces of Pakistan and China that started in Qixtonxia in northwest China's Ningxia Hui Autonomous Region. Pakistan Army Chief of General Staff General Khalid Shameem Wynne was also present on the occasion.

The 11-day long Pak-China counter-terrorism training exercise would be conducted in three phases between the mix combat teams from both countries, according to a press release.

Guosheng said the joint exercise would be another achievement in the security cooperation domain between the two countries. He appreciated the professionalism and success of the Pakistan Special Forces in the recent operations in the fight against terrorism. Guosheng lauded the commitment and determination of the Pakistan armed forces to eliminate terrorism from the country.

He added that both sides would learn from each other's rich experiences, which would be helpful in any future counter-terrorism operation.

Wynne said the Pakistan Army values the time-tested ties with PLA and the people of China. He appreciated the professionalism of the PLA, terming it the "best army in the world".

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 04 Jul 2010 18:04

Mahendra wrote:
I'm sure this Italian system when painted green will provide awesome defence against Predators and Hellfires which blatantly violate the Virginity of Pakhanistan. I'm sure the President and Prime-Molester are fully aware of the air defence needs of the country

What is SPADA by the way, is it by any chance Spare Predator And Destroy Ahmediya?

Short range quick reaction air defence system for pindi headquarters

vishal · Post by **vishal** » 04 Jul 2010 20:24

SSG men in China during YOUYI- III 2010. Doesn't name the source though.
http://twitpic.com/22bkws

There are more SSG pics in that album too.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2010 20:36

Is SSG the elitist of Pakistan SF or do they have any other group better then SSG ?

biswas · Post by **biswas** » 04 Jul 2010 20:50

Austin wrote:Is SSG the elitist of Pakistan SF or do they have any other group better then SSG ?

Taliban?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 04 Jul 2010 21:24

SSG is for inside pakistan, mostly to protect the generals from soosai attacks.
For outside pakistan, for the eastern sector they have the Lashkar-e-taiba, and for the western sector they have the Taliban with field marshal Haqqani in command. For international operations in IT, again they have the LET.

For special ops like 9/11 they outsourced to organizations such as Al Qaida. But after the success of the 9/11 operations and all credit going to Al Qaida, the Pakistanis decided to rewamp their IT departments and now the LET can fully take over the earlier operations entrusted to the Al Qaida.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 04 Jul 2010 21:34

Oh brether this is a sherious queschen from noobie.

Will Indian equivalent to SSG will be the Naval MARCOS which has similar elite status among Indian SF ?

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 04 Jul 2010 23:24

Austin wrote:Oh brether this is a sherious queschen from noobie.

Will Indian equivalent to SSG will be the Naval MARCOS which has similar elite status among Indian SF ?

lol, I think that will be SSG(N). SSGN have similar structure and equipment (from arms to small midget submarines).

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 04 Jul 2010 23:31

Austin wrote:Oh brether this is a sherious queschen from noobie.

Will Indian equivalent to SSG will be the Naval MARCOS which has similar elite status among Indian SF ?

SSG is the equivalent to our Para(SF). They also have Naval and Air Force counterparts. Naval SSG (SSGN) is an off-shoot of the Diver Company which was earlier within SSG. There are 3 Battalions organized into a Special Forces Brigade. Internet chatter tells me that another Battalion might be operational - especially for Air Assault role. IIRC, ther plan is to have 2 Brigade equivalent. It is headed by a Major General.

One big difference from our SF - PA Officers can opt for SSG and after a 3/5 year tenure, revert to their parent Regiment - our Kommando is a Gunner and did two stints with SSG. In case of IA, an officer looses affiliation with parent Regiment after clearing the probation..he is SF officer for life.

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Jul 2010 00:27

http://twitpic.com/22ag5f/full
Thats one fat commando walking alone in the extreme right.

Shunned even by his own brethren, it seems. This is surprising. Its the first time I have seen a fat SF personnel pic of any force.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 05 Jul 2010 02:53

Gaur wrote:http://twitpic.com/22ag5f/full
Its the first time I have seen a fat SF personnel pic of any force.

Gaur Praji, No pun intended, but perhaps you haven't been exposed to a lot of SF from other ALLIED forces it seems.

The fellow in question with his stature seems to be the norm out in the WEST! THE BIGGER THEY ARE THE HARDER THEY FALL!!!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 05 Jul 2010 03:22

^^
True, one of the biggest concerns of Western Armies is growing obesity among them. Someone had posted an article from a respected newspaper not too long ago regarding the very same problem being faced by the German Army. According to the article, the obese % of young men(18-28yrs) in German Army is greater than the general population! That being said, it is also true that I have not seen a fat SF soldier belonging even to the Western Armies. The reason may be two fold. First, I have never looked hard enough and also, may be the Western Armies and media realise the importance of building positive image by showing only the good stuff.

naird · Post by **naird** » 05 Jul 2010 04:36

^^ Gaur ji .... SSG as well as PARA's have senior ranks amongst them. I believe SSG is led by Major General -- Maybe it is the Major General ..bloated due to years of inactivity ...

Overall looking at the curriculum of SSG they should be as fit as PARA's or any other SF's in the world.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 05 Jul 2010 07:07

no way that guy can be even in a police sentry role. he is likely a deskbound senior officer or some kind of religious chaperon/armourer type who doesnt go out in the field daily. way too many butter naans and pots of nihari.

looking at where he is walking, must be a senior officer.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 05 Jul 2010 16:35

Thanks Rohit ,Sid

Here is something that could affect FC-1/JF-17 export and domestic chances

Sukhoi and MiG opposed the sale of engines to China

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 06 Jul 2010 09:36

So, commercial interests will ensure what geo-political interests (India's concern) could not....how quant...

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 07 Jul 2010 00:27

CIA and Pakistan locked in aggressive spy battles