Indian Education System

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 02 Jun 2011 10:25

Theo_Fidel wrote: Not saying Military can't have its own schools but...

This a situation many other organizations face. I personally spend 6 years unschooled because my Dad was posted in the wilds of India. There was no reserved college or school for me. In class Eleven I moved from CBSE to State syllabus after 6 months cos my Dad got transferred to Chennai. Anyone in TN knows the challenge of going from CBSE to state syllabus.

I actually went to a school that is 50% reserved for military. Let me tell you the vast majority were not deserving. Maybe it is different now or in other places. Most of them were from 'connected families' who fudged the paperwork to get hem admitted. Not only that the few military students in there had absolutely no intention of joining the military. No aptitude for it. To be honest the daily (including Sunday) 5 AM wake up call and forced 5 km march through the wilds of Nilgiris would discourage the most avid military recruit. I have a cousin who went through helicopter training and the 10 year job requirement because his dad was military and he got a reserved seat. The military must have spent at least 1 Crore on training him and acquiring 6000 helicopter man-hours. Yet the moment the job requirement was over, he put in for discharge and now fly's a 2 seater rural helicopter for farmers and hospitals in the wilds of Nebraska. What can I say...

This whole reservation thinking is twisted and must stop.

Flawed logic. There is no imposition of a requirement for persons joining AWES funded institutes, to join the military. No service liability at all. They are funded through the PRIVATE contributions of officers and jawans, and do not impose any service liability.

Furthermore, I would say that your helicopter pilot executed his responsibility to the nation, by serving with honour for 10 LONG YEARS. There is nothing wrong with his doing whatever the heck he wants, after he has discharged the obligation that the government has decided is sufficient to repay his training. And trust me, the government ALWAYS gets more than it gives! After all, if a company sent you for a course, and imposed a bond upon you, you wouldnt feel obliged to serve them after your bond obligation was discharged.

Frankly, your cousin could have gone to a private pilot training institute, and paid for his training. It would have cost much less than a crore, and for the next ten years, he would have been PAID (big bucks) for earning those 6000+ flying hours. Instead, he chose to serve the nation, in dangerous conditions (army chopper pilots fly in some scary places), for ten years.

Personally, I would just have thanked him for serving, and been glad that he has got a job that he likes even today. Who is anyone to judge, when the government itself deems that he has redeemed his obligations to it? He did a tough job for a decade, and then moved on to something else. I see nothing wrong with that.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 02 Jun 2011 10:41

somnath wrote:
chaanakya wrote:Well if you don't know then I can't help. Its there for all be it BITS or XLRI etc unless they are classified as Minority. In that case they would have quote for that minority
Boss, I have batchmates from school, uni, insti who have studied in these places..Unless rules have changed in the last 10-12 years...

anjan wrote:The purpose of Army based organizations was simple: Army wards due to the nature of the jobs of their parents cannot compete at the same level as kids who spend decades in the same places with access to better educational facility. Your logic is fallacious
I am not making a value judgement on the relative merits of Army kids - I had lots of them as batchmates, the normal curve applies equally to them as to any other group...The limited point is that if a school only takes in students from a limited pool of students (and the Army pool by definition is small), it will never graduate to being considered a centre of excellence, thats all...the fame of IIXs is not because of their "quota" students, but their general cat ones (to be sure I am not comparing Army kids to "quota" students, just giving an example)...

Lastly, transfers are a way of life not just in the Army, but in all central govt services...Its worst in the paramils...Most families make adjustments for that...In my family, we stayed back in Calcutta to finish my school sessions when my dad was transferred to Del - it was a year before we went...That is why you have a concept of "retaining quarters" - so for some postings (with less infra), the person can retain his existing acco...In Delhi's Lodhi Road hostel, where we stayed for a few years, we had tons of neighbours who were posted in all sorts of places - Kashmir to Manipur to Jamnagar, while the families and kids stayed in Del, primarily for education...

Makes sense, though the purpose of the AWES institutes is not to becomes centers of excellence per se, but to perform the social obligation of fulfilling the education requirements of service members families.

I agree in principle, that EVERYONE is affected by the impositions made by the reservation system. As to the rest, of course, most central government services have much more job security, and stability in terms of where one gets posted, than military members. Getting posted from Calcutta (Large, well developed metropolitan area), to Delhi (National Capital), is not comparable to getting posted from Nagrota to Imphal.

I agree though, that CAPF's (as they are now known), and All India Service officers from certain states (NE, J&K, etc) suffer from many of the same difficulties as the armed forces. To this end, some of these orgs have copied the AWES model to alleviate difficulties of their wards as well. For AIS officers, government has provided certain benefits also.

For example, there is a well established system of schools called CRPF school, ITBP School, BSF School, Assam Rifles School, etc for paramilitary wards.

The BSF has also established the "Rustamji Institute of Technology", an engineering college for CPO wards, in Tekanpur, MP (colocated with the BSF academy). Students can sign up for BE and ME courses in IT, E&TC, Mech Engg, etc, at this institution. However, this institute must also put up with reservations in accordance with legislation and supreme court judgements allowing the same, and cannot reserve all seats for CPO wards alone.

Furthermore, BSF and other CPOs have a bunch of discretionary quota seats in some of the top colleges apparently (in return for bond of service), including (for MBBS) Lady Hardinge, Delhi, JIPMER Puduchery, etc. Of course, children of IPS officers currently on deputation to the orgs are also eligible.....

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 02 Jun 2011 16:49

ASPuar wrote:Furthermore, BSF and other CPOs have a bunch of discretionary quota seats in some of the top colleges apparently (in return for bond of service), including (for MBBS) Lady Hardinge, Delhi, JIPMER Puduchery, etc.

Really?! I dont think so though (I could have been a beneficiary if I had known

)...Even DU, which has a whole range of discretioanry quotas, didnt have anything for CPO kids...

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 02 Jun 2011 17:30

Heh, you should've asked your parents!

The Ministry of Health & Family Welfare has reserved seats in various institutions for kids of Serving/Retired/Deceased/Released members of Central Police Orgs, and IPS officers serving with such organisations.

Here's an example (from the BSF site), of an application form for medical and dental schools reserved seats being offered by MOHFW to CPO (and IPS) wards:

http://bsf.nic.in/MBBS%20Application.pdf

But please, dont get mad at the folks! This scheme may not have existed when you went through the system!

As for DU, it has the same token quotas for CPO as it does for Armed forces wards: if killed, disabled, etc in action, or harness, their wards can apply for a miniscule number of seats (some 2% or something, which is not always even offered).

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 02 Jun 2011 17:40

^^^Not bad, not bad at all! Yeah, I should call up dad and ask him

- looking at the qualifying marke there, its a very very good deal...

But never mind, medicine's gain has been banking's loss

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 02 Jun 2011 18:58

somnath wrote: Boss, I have batchmates from school, uni, insti who have studied in these places..Unless rules have changed in the last 10-12 years...
.

For all it is worth, MMS could b your batch-mate , but that doesn't change it a bit. And no rules weren't changes in last 10 years. It was merely clarified through various judicial decisions.

The only seminal change that took place recently was OBC reservation and SC limiting reservation to not more than 50%.

I also see people confuse between "reservation" and "quota". Reservations are caste based and provided for within constitutional and statutory ambit. Constitution mandates reservation in services and posts under Government. Education and extension of reservation to private sector educational institution is through Directive principles applying same idea if caste based discrimination.

Quota ( by executive fiat) is irrespective of caste and is provided to a certain Class of people irrespective of caste( such as Central govt quota of seats, quota for army personnel's ward,quota for states and UTs in Central Govt Institutions, alas there is no quota for IAS or IPS etc officers). Though overall reservation policy has to be followed. In few cases reservations have been given by States beyond 50% and matter is with SC.

"Dalit" Muslims and "Dalit" Christians can't have reservations as caste based discrimination is specific to Hindu religion. This issue is also under consideration on the basis of plea that mere conversion does not obliterate the birth mark of discrimination.

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Jun 2011 21:59

The 2% quota for children of armed forces killed/disabled on duty has been there for quite some time, it was there when I went to college too; usually those seats go unfilled and are re-allocated to the 'general category'.

Yes the Rashtriya Military Colleges have substantial % of their seats reserved for the kith/kin of folks in armed forces and opening them up for general public is not a bad idea (lot of 'jack' wallahs or connection wallahs have taken this for granted); however I am not sure as to how many parents will be ready to send their kids far away from home which has a barrack like routine(again nothing good/bad about it it's just that not every kid can cope with that) and more importantly from what I know the whole system was devised to primarily prepare the students for the NDA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2011 22:04

in my era 50% of seats in NIT were kept for the home state students and 50% allocated to other states weighed by population (hence UP/Bihar had the highest quotas). and overall reservation was there for both these halves. Andhra added 30% of 50% reservation for state girls in 1994 which led to a sudden building boom for Ladies hostel in NiT-warangal...not sure if any other state did.

are 100% of seats in the NITs given via AIEEE now and the state quotas abolished (ofcourse reservation is there).

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 02 Jun 2011 22:35

In the early 80's there was no AIEEE for REC admissions. I recall the cut-off percentage for PCM combined was like 95% at Pre-Degree level to make the list to get the lowly civil branch for BSc(engg) at Calicut. There were some who ditched even REC to go to Trv engg college due to student body unrest at the RECs.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 02 Jun 2011 23:03

Singha wrote: are 100% of seats in the NITs given via AIEEE now and the state quotas abolished (ofcourse reservation is there).

50% of the seats are still reserved for students of that particular state.

anjan · Post by **anjan** » 02 Jun 2011 23:51

somnath wrote: I am not making a value judgement on the relative merits of Army kids - I had lots of them as batchmates, the normal curve applies equally to them as to any other group...The limited point is that if a school only takes in students from a limited pool of students (and the Army pool by definition is small), it will never graduate to being considered a centre of excellence, thats all...the fame of IIXs is not because of their "quota" students, but their general cat ones (to be sure I am not comparing Army kids to "quota" students, just giving an example)...

As pointed out the purpose is not to create some center of excellence but to ensure that access to education exists for students disadvantaged by their parent's profession.

Lastly, transfers are a way of life not just in the Army, but in all central govt services...Its worst in the paramils...Most families make adjustments for that...In my family, we stayed back in Calcutta to finish my school sessions when my dad was transferred to Del - it was a year before we went...That is why you have a concept of "retaining quarters" - so for some postings (with less infra), the person can retain his existing acco...In Delhi's Lodhi Road hostel, where we stayed for a few years, we had tons of neighbours who were posted in all sorts of places - Kashmir to Manipur to Jamnagar, while the families and kids stayed in Del, primarily for education...

Calcutta and Delhi postings in your personal case are not comparable to being posted around army stations. I've switched from Hyderabad to Srinagar to Tiruvanandapuram(IPKF) to Wellington in the space of 5 years. And I had a store room for a classroom at KV3 Srinagar. What do you figure the standards of education in those places were? My dad retired during my 10th so I was okay but I've known enough friends and relatives to suffer movement during school time. If acco exists and you're in a "peace station" you move. And if it is Kumbigram you move to Kumbigram regardless of what standard the schools there are. BTW just how much "separated family" accommodation do you suppose exists in these places? It's bloody hard to get it.

Certain Central govt. employees do have similar levels of postings and I am perfectly happy for them to pool money together and create schools and colleges where they reserve 100% of the seats for their own. My issue is with people claiming they have some right to education in schools built and operated out of contributory funds from the members of the Armed forces.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 03 Jun 2011 08:03

Singha wrote:in my era 50% of seats in NIT were kept for the home state students and 50% allocated to other states weighed by population (hence UP/Bihar had the highest quotas). and overall reservation was there for both these halves. Andhra added 30% of 50% reservation for state girls in 1994 which led to a sudden building boom for Ladies hostel in NiT-warangal...not sure if any other state did.

are 100% of seats in the NITs given via AIEEE now and the state quotas abolished (ofcourse reservation is there).

Its still there. It is called home state quota and candidate has to indicate his home state with documentary proof. It is administered through the same exam. cutoff for home state remains lower If there is no NIT in a state then it is allocated seats in AIEEE for admission in NIT as home state quota.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 Jun 2011 02:41

No world-class institute in India: CNR Rao

C N R Rao, chairman of special advisory committee to PM, has said there is not a single institute or university of global standard in the country.

While Rao was seemingly echoing Union minister Jairam Ramesh's argument that IITs were good only because of students not faculty, he said he was not responding or reacting to Ramesh.

Speaking at a programme on nano technology organised by the Karnataka State Higher Education Council on Tuesday, Rao said not a single science institution in the country was in the top 100 and may be at best one or two in the top 500. "We are nowhere in the scheme of things when it comes to being a world class science academic destination. Everything we do from now on should be geared to taking a place in the top 100 and then top 10."

Rao said money was no longer an issue in Indian science. "I did a degree from the US and I was paid a salary of Rs 500 during my time. Now professors get Rs 1 lakh. There cannot be complaints. If the money is put in the right direction, results should be forthcoming."

He was worried that there were no takers for physics, a fundamental necessity for work in nano sciences. "We have colleges offering biotech instead. Here is an irony - people are too specialized such that industry cannot respond with jobs. We are creating niche specialists who cannot be in general employment. Result is we are generating qualified science graduates in one area who cannot find jobs in areas other than that."

Rao said nano technology would be helpful in the areas of medicine, electronics, semi-conductors and biology. The immediate future will see plenty of nano applications helping people drink pure drinking water to administering insulin in easier ways to tackle diabetes.

Higher education minister V S Acharya who keenly listened to Rao's observations said the state was planning a road map for nano technology. "We are working on the overall direction that nano technology should take in the immediate future. We will have a plan ready soon."

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 04 Jun 2011 03:26

SwamyG wrote: Rao said money was no longer an issue in Indian science. "I did a degree from the US and I was paid a salary of Rs 500 during my time. Now professors get Rs 1 lakh. There cannot be complaints. If the money is put in the right direction, results should be forthcoming."

Money is not an issue if its sponsored research or industrial projects for funding students, postdocs, and for topping up, which not all non-engg disciplines can get. But in terms of pay, this is what you get in IISc/IITs.

The position of Assistant Professors will be in PB-3 i.e. Rs.15,600-39,100 with minimum pay of Rs.30,000/- provided you have 3 years of post-Phd experience (called the basic) with Grade pay Rs.8000/- plus allowances. After completion of three years service in PB-3 they will be placed in PB-4 i.e. Rs.37400-67000 with Grade pay of Rs.9000/- plus allowances.

The faculty is eligible for the following allowances:
Dearness allowance (DA) as on 1 Aug 2010 is 35% of Basic (B) and grade pay (GP).
House Rent Allowance, HRA, which is 30% of B+GP in metros.
Transport Allowance (TA): 3,200 + 15% of DA
Telephone (including broadband charges): 1,000

You can either get HRA or an acco in the campus, not both, even if both members of the family are Profs in the same university. Given the rate at which houses near campuses go in metros, most will prefer an accommodation than HRA even if its leaky in rainy season like happens in Vignyanpura. Bottomline: without a three+ year post-Phd experience from massa or oirope, the starting pay (an average case) in IITs/IISc in engg is:
Basic - 20140
Additional grade pay - 6000
Dearness Allowance - 7058
Transport Allowance - 4064
Total - Rs. 37262 per month
With 3 years of post-Phd experience, you take home Rs 52324 and with six years, around Rs 62k. After 21 years of being a prof, and assuming you do get a non-contractual non-fixed-time appointment, you will hit the highest basic pay of Rs. 67000, which (non-inflation adjusted at today's rate) will fetch you a net take home of Rs. 100584 (the break down is 67000-9000-20520-4064).

The reality on the ground is solpa different. If you can get sponsored research or industry projects, you can pay yourself a bit more. But on average, unless you are already ahead of the curve or working in a niche area, even an engg prof gets paid a pittance when compared with It-vity munnas of Bengalooru. So what exactly is Prof. Rao talking about in terms of a 1 lakh+ salary in the sciences? If he (knowing the reality) is obfuscating facts because of the fact that the Gen Y's demand more than what his gen did, does nt that say more about boor-a-crazy in India?

negi · Post by **negi** » 04 Jun 2011 03:36

Stan one question do you think payscale issue for the IITs can be addressed by giving them autonomy ? Reason I ask the question is with 6th pay commission recommendations in place I am not sure how much more GoI can do in this regards specially when other institutions would demand for a similar treatment in case GoI even considers re-visiting the pay scales of the IIT faculty. Obviously there are ways GoI can address this by doling out a fixed lump sum amount for 'research' under a 'xyz' scheme, however I have never heard/read any thing on similar lines in media.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 04 Jun 2011 03:44

I will add more:
Prof. Rao joined IITK in 1963, he got paid INR 500, which with the 1963 conversion rate of 4.76 INR to a US$ comes to ~US$ 105. Inflation-adjusted to 2011 figures, thats 739.52 US$ and per-2011 conversion thats ~INR 33K.

All ball-park figures, lets say. But India has grown in GDP a lot more than the 33K to 50K jump. In any case, things are not stationary in terms of resources to pay faculty instead of putting them in PB-3 and PB-4. What is stationary is the attitude in terms of financial autonomy. May be someone who knows what INR 500 could buy in 1963 in metros in India and INR 50K can buy now in Bengalooru or Madras or Delhi or Bombay can tell us whether Prof. Rao is right or wrong.

Negi, let the GoI back off in many aspects. The quid pro quo is the GoI underwriting students fees and expenses. In 21st century India with a growing middle class, this is BS. Its not sustainable. Kakodkar committee came up with a way to make the IITs underwrite the expenses, which is the major chunk. But populist GoI cant enforce it because of all the IC-814 journo wannabes in our media who will cry as to how the middle class is getting shafted. If the GoI allows this move, obviously they can also allow the IITs to pay their own staffs as much as they want. Let the IITs worry about finding cash, which I am sure they can do given that they have been in existence for 50+ years now. At least, the old ones can find nuff cash if they put their head to it. The new ones like Mandi, Medak, Guwahati, etc. will need some dole for a while before they can walk and then run. Let NITs and others follow slowly. Once you take them off the payscales, they can do whatever the hell they want with people who come under their clout. It makes no sense to constrain everyone in India to some centrally decided payscale independent of what they do or dont. Give IITs autonomy and no need for dole. Accountability cannot come just by doing kaphal bhatti, accountability has to grow organically at a systemic level.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 04 Jun 2011 04:06

Also, money is an issue for travel to conferences even today. Most DRDO/DST/CSIR grants dont allow furrin travel*, you need to have industry cash (without constraints) for this purpose. Students do get some alum funds etc., but these are different sources not anything to do with GoI. Again it all comes with the ahead of the curve, life is no issue constraint. It is obvious that you gotta be in the in-circle of international research if you want to do elite research. How is GoI even planning on funding this? I should be the last person telling this to Prof. Rao.

*: Travel cash is a problem even with NSF grants, but this is a whole new layer of amrikan boor-a-crazy, all legally printed in 10 pt fine print.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 04 Jun 2011 07:55

Stan_Savljevic wrote:So what exactly is Prof. Rao talking about in terms of a 1 lakh+ salary in the sciences? If he (knowing the reality) is obfuscating facts because of the fact that the Gen Y's demand more than what his gen did, does nt that say more about boor-a-crazy in India?

My take is he is referring to two issues here. (1) Funds for science & research (2) Salary. I think he did not separate them out clearly enough. If my reading is correct, then it is true that both these areas have increased money play. Salaries have increased and India (GoI) and Indian companies are richer than before. So there is money in circulation. What he is also saying is that this money should be used better. For example increase the salaries even more; provide even more grants for research ityadi.

One cannot compare the ITvity folks and Ass. Professors or Professors. Even in maasa, a Java or .Net consultant could earn around $120K. When some of the Associate Professors are running pillars to pillars working on post-doc works. I hear some of them are doing it for over a period of 10yrs with just $50k.

I have not followed the politics of IIT and what Ramesh said....hence a naive take

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 04 Jun 2011 09:43

Boss, I just did some back of the envelope calc and showed that what he would have got today was 33K when compared with 50K someone is getting. Thats not a big jump in pay in 45+ years, dont you think? Why are Profs being confined to pay band 3 and 4 based on some neanderthal calculations that befit a top-down system of Soviet era bullshit?

And then there is objectivity in whining about a proper salary and then there is the relativistic whining. Prof. CNR Rao is doing the relativistic whining wherein he is comparing the system as it is now with what it was when he entered IITK. Obviously, such a whining is going to be biased not like everything else is unbiased and ah-so-beautiful. Even within the confines of slants and biases that run amok in our system, this comment that there is a ton of cash for profs in India in science is hardly 100% true. It is not true even within the US, but that just opens a giant can of worms. One issue at a time.

For people having PhD from within India, a 2-3 year post PhD experience is mandatory even by the standing advertisement for Asst Prof positions in IITs/IISc. If someone is returning from a hifalutin school in massa, this mandatory requirement can be relaxed based on the evidence on the ground in terms of research quality, but I showed you what the payscale is: approx INR 33K per month. With a 3 year experience, things dont dramatically improve: its approx INR 52K per month.

There are people who pay themselves a lot of cash, esp if they are involved in sponsored research or industrial projects, popularly known as consultancy stuff. Some even pay themselves like around 20 lakhs per year. For every project, the insti takes 40% as overhead and the prof gets 60%, of which he/she could use a substantial portion for research expenditures including student pay, self pay, instruments, etc. However, very few get these high end 20 lakh p.y. paychecks. Mostly its on the order of 20-30K, assuming of course folks are lucky to establish contacts and the field is ripe for the picking. Some of the folks in my field get on average like 30-40K, but my field has a ton of small to global neanderthals running the show and who need some "education" or proof of getting educated in return for throwing cash on Profs. In fact, I knew of a High Voltage guy who would pay himself like 50K every month just to test a heavy-duty power transformer or converter or some other giga-ton jalfrezis of the HV kind. And obviously this testing would "supervised" by the Prof with a long-time lab assistant doing the majority of the testing. But then one sorry mishap where the equipment became upma and his consultancy paycheck started drying up quicker than the River Saraswathi.

Bottomline, even within engg, not everyone gets the rich rewards of consultancy research. Some do, some dont, its hit or miss. A lot depends on your pedigree and massa degrees make a lotta difference in whether people in the decision-making think you deserve what you want or not, thats just reality for you. The less said about science, the better. Unless you are closely related to pharma (biochemistry or chemical engg folks) or clinical design (statistics) and even then, science profs in India have a far shittier life than engg profs do. Science in massa is uglier than the confines of engg halls, thats how reality is. The Science folks have a life slisha better than only artsy and pol or soc majors. Anyway...

When Prof. Rao whines relativistically, he is essentially saying "why are you guys whining when I suffered and stuck with the system?" We all do that, every old-istani will have some issue when he/she will question the youngistan brigade about how life was 20 years back. Whether it is IIT hostels and a lack of infra, whether it is license raj, whether it is lack of furrin exchange when folks had to come to massa literally with 5$ in their pockets, whether it was lack of cable tv/midnite masala when folks grew up, whether it was Lynx vs Netscape Navigator, whether it was the repeat telecast of Shanti vs Mash vs Hum Log vs Jerry Lewis shows, whether it was text-based p0rn where folks had to imagine compared with the rich hi-def dvds today's munnas get, we all have our biases. It is true that Prof. Rao suffered, but then just because he did does nt mean that every new guy entering the system should suffer.

In fact, I posted a similar content on one of the hi flying nukkad dhaagas a month or so back: http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... z#p1080563

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 05 Jun 2011 10:34

Research funding in the twenty-first century: Are universities and market forces compatible?

Michael M. Crow

BOOK REVIEWED
-Science for Sale: The Perils, Rewards and Delusions of Campus Capitalism
by Daniel S. Greenberg: University of Chicago Press: 2007. 288 pp. $25

Nature 449, 405 (27 September 2007)

Daniel Greenberg is widely considered the premier journalist of science policy, having written extensively on the subject over the course of its 60-year evolution in the United States. Science for Sale is his latest offering. It provides an intriguing, if idealistic, review of the issues surrounding the funding of science in the twenty-first century. Greenberg posits that science was once, and should be again, driven by the pure curiosity of scientists and not by motives influenced by the stress of external funding and the negative forces of capitalism. Unfortunately, science past did not really exist in the way he spends so much time describing in the book.

Greenberg's idyllic views — in particular that the academic scientist and the university are best motivated by curiosity alone — are interesting. But they run counter to history, to how organizations operate and, perhaps most importantly, to the understanding that 'the university' itself is an idea, not an ideal or an ideology.

In fine journalistic style, the author makes his case that the modern university, with its quest for resources, has drifted far from its purely scientific origins. He presents substantial and meaningful information and anecdotes about the academic arms race, the drive for comprehensive funding and the complexities and perils of corporate funding of research. He guides us through the negative effects that can result throughout the academic system for a large-scale, high-impact enterprise that is highly competitive at individual and institutional levels.

Academics would admit that Greenberg's concerns about conflicts of interest and the challenges of funding are legitimate and that these need to be managed consciously and meaningfully. But his assumptions and arguments about the corruption of academic purpose and of its independence from corporate and government funding are oversimplified. He presents scenarios in which the actors involved, be they academic scientists, university administrators or corporate technologists, do not seem to live up to his ideals in terms of their scientific comportment; his analyses aren't so much incorrect as lacking in detail and historical context.

From its beginnings, US academic science has focused on practical outcomes and has been linked heavily to industry. Take the Silliman family of Connecticut. Benjamin Silliman, a Yale alumnus and son of the revolutionary war hero General Gold Selleck Silliman, switched professions from law to medicine and in 1804 taught the first academic science class in the United States. He was a hybrid chemist, geologist and science-society organizer who, between 1804 and 1857, spent much of his time on practical mineralogy and consulting for industry and the government. Silliman's son, also Benjamin, became a Yale chemist and one of the most influential academic scientists in US history. He wrote a US$526 report for industry on how to distil fractionated oil, which ultimately led to the emergence of the oil industry in Pennsylvania and provided the chemical source for the Standard Oil Company. These path-breaking academics helped shape the structure of America's first school of science (Sheffield Scientific School at Yale) and furthered the US tradition of practical science.

This account and numerous others demonstrate the emergence of US universities through donation, state constitution, church, land-grant or powerful local business and commercial forces. Science for Sale's portrayal of academic science as previously unencumbered by market forces, greed or evil is not the whole story.

The theory Greenberg presents is desirable. In reality, science and its environment represent a much more complicated force. Academic scientists work to advance humanity, sometimes coming up with innovations that have the potential for good and bad outcomes. One of Greenberg's case studies of corporate influence on the development trajectory of the chemotherapy drug Taxol seems like child's play when compared with government influence on the production of new technologies with a high potential for social and economic disruption. Even science at its most pure can be affected by a variety of factors, sometimes with unintended consequences. The point is, all influences are at least equal, all outcomes can cut both ways and all resources carry with them a quid pro quo.

Greenberg outlines the myriad pitfalls and pratfalls faced by academic science, but does not analyse how to address them. US research universities exist inside one of the bastions of capitalism and are organized to compete with each other for students, faculty, resources and recognition in this complex sociocultural system. Unlike much of the rest of the world, they are not managed by a central ministry. This setting has led institutions to take on many of the characteristics that concern Greenberg — size, scope, wealth, reliance on external resources, and so on. It is not a set of corporate or capitalistic forces that are driving US academia on the path of increased complexity and stress. It is the universities, through their creativity, connectivity, influence and power, that are driving other institutions or nation states to action with science-based competition.

Stan_Savljevic · Post by **Stan_Savljevic** » 05 Jun 2011 12:40

Land identified for IIT dug up by stone-quarry mafia
http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/05/stories ... 360300.htm

IIMs a step closer to getting autonomous body status?
http://www.dnaindia.com/academy/report_ ... us_1551034

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Jun 2011 00:16

The full Kakodkar committee report for pleasure of reading about 270+ pages.
Report

There is an urgent need for India to attend to this problem and provide quality
engineering education to a much larger section of its population. The IITs, being
the premier education institutes in the country, need to play a major role in
overcoming this situation. The Committee has deliberated on what the IITs can
do; it recommends here a plan to enable 100,000 youngsters every year to get
admission in Central government-funded institutions providing quality
engineering education. Hopefully, state governments’ and private efforts would
add to this significantly and result in a few hundred thousand quality seats. If this
happens, it would go a long way in enabling India to provide quality and inclusive
engineering education in India for its youngsters.

The part I like the most and has been discussed many times before even here.

IITs as Research Institutions
1. Make IITs the Primary Research Institutes, with a focus on high quality
frontier research and technology development within the Indian context.
2. Scale up PhD students from less than 1000 PhD graduates per year today to
10,000 PhD graduates by 2020-25 from about 20 IITs (15 existing IITs plus
5 new to be set up over the next several years in states where there are no
IITs).
3. Scaling PhD scholars’ admissions to include enabling bright UGs being
admitted for PhD at the end of their third year, teachers from other
institutes joining for PhD and significant numbers from industry joining
sponsored/part-time PhD programme. It is strongly recommended that a
fellowship scheme covering all categories of PhD students is in place.
4. The faculty: student ratio is 1:10; while the UG : PG ratio is close to 1:1.
5. Each IIT should aim to acquire technology leadership in at least 3 to 4 areas.
6. Research groups in one or more IITs to take up large projects together to
address major national challenges
7. Set up research parks at each of the IITs similar to the IIT-M Research Park.
8. Enable Ministries to set up R&D labs in IITs to drive Technology
Development relevant to national programmes being piloted by them.
9. Large-scale Executive M.Tech training programmes for industry jointly
conducted with the IITs using video links.

Saral · Post by **Saral** » 07 Jun 2011 06:19

Raja Bose wrote: Ah! One of the HRI string theorists - didn't know he was Eye Eye Tea JEE topper.

One topper from the early 1970s is Gangan Prathap who was in NAL for many years
Two toppers from 1978 are Profs of Physics at Harvard (Subir Sachdev) and UCSD (Aneesh Manohar) but they didn't complete the B.Tech

There must be others who ventured into Physics/pure science topics.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Jun 2011 06:49

This 1986 topper got the Godel prize and is a TFTA prof at Princeton.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Jun 2011 06:57

abhishek_sharma wrote:This 1986 topper got the Godel prize and is a TFTA prof at Princeton.

This guy looks like ABCD

However, from his CV I noticed that Subhash Khot (one of the JEE toppers whose face I remember used to be plastered across all newspapers by Brilliants tutorials when I was a nanha) was one of his pee-chaddi students and is now at Courant.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Jun 2011 07:03

deleted

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 07 Jun 2011 07:31

abhishek_sharma wrote:Both Vijay Vazirani and Rajeev Motwani died in last 1-2 years. Huge loss to India and Computer Sc.

Are you sure you didn't prematurely 72 Prof. Vazirani??

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 07 Jun 2011 07:37

I saw this and thought he has died. Sorry.

Bade · Post by **Bade** » 07 Jun 2011 07:39

The Kakodkar report mentions 5 more IITs as slated for opening within the next decade. The only large states left out without one are Karnataka, Kerala, J&K, Jharkhand at least if one goes by population. So which of the seven sisters is going to get the 5th one ?

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 17 Jun 2011 12:31

Faculties Wither as Higher Education System Rapidly Expands
Science 29 April 2011: Vol. 332 no. 6029 p. 524
Pallava Bagla

At the Indian Science Congress in January 2008, Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh announced that his nation would launch a “second wave” of education. “We will need an army of teachers, especially in the basic sciences and in the field of mathematics,” he said. “The time has come for action.”

At the time, India was rapidly expanding its higher education system. The country has opened more than 100 elite higher education institutions in the past 5 years and is now home to 467 universities (see table). In the headlong rush, student enrollment has risen more than 50% to 13.6 million. Meanwhile, almost a third of faculty positions at elite institutions—both new and long established—are vacant due to an acute shortage of trained teachers. The result is a dilution of standards, says P. V. Indiresan, former director of the Indian Institute of Technology (IIT) in Chennai. “Expansion is politically popular,” he says, “but functionally disastrous.”

Boom and bust. Although more than 100 elite institutions have opened in the past 5 years, competition is fiercer than ever. Last year, only 3% of students, including these at a cram school in Kota, India, passed IIT's entrance exam.
CREDITS (LEFT TO RIGHT): SAURABH DAS/AP PHOTO; (SOURCE) MINISTRY OF HUMAN RESOURCE DEVELOPMENT

Indian leaders are aware they're grappling with a crisis in higher education. In a report issued last week, the prime minister's science advisory council decried a number of serious problems, including “declining quality and indifferent performance of institutions” and a system that puts a greater emphasis on entrance exams than on education. The University Grants Commission of India recently rated “68% of the universities and 91% of the colleges” as average or below average. “This hardly speaks well of quality and excellence in universities,” the report states. At a meeting of university vice-chancellors last month, India's education minister, Kapil Sibal, acknowledged the dire situation. “Germination of ideas takes place through the university system, and if the system is not effervescent, energetic, and creative, then India would be relegated to the knowledge of the past,” he said. But the solution remains elusive.

Lack of funding is not the problem. In the past 5 years, the government has invested $11.6 billion in education, a whopping 14-fold increase over the previous 5 years. As impressive as that sounds, that figure—1% of India's GDP—could rise even higher. The government has vowed to make education a cornerstone of development by increasing education spending to 6% of GDP over the next decade. In 2011, spending will rise 19% to $3.3 billion.

All that money can't buy good teaching, apparently. A 2010 government survey of India's top 22 universities reports that 3777 out of 11,085 faculty positions were unfilled. The University of Delhi needs to hire approximately 3000 teachers, says historian Nayanjot Lahiri, a former dean at the university. The prestigious IIT, which has been expanded to eight new sites, reports a similar one-third shortfall. At the new IITs, even retaining freshly recruited faculty members is a challenge partly because of working conditions: Several institutes are still operating out of ramshackle temporary buildings.

A major obstacle to recruitment is the failure to make teaching an attractive career, says Man Mohan Sharma, a chemist at the Institute of Chemical Technology in Mumbai. “Teaching is no longer a glamorous or paying profession,” he says. “Scholarly habits are dying.” To ease the teaching shortage, a new National Knowledge Network will combine classrooms over the next 2 years to share the teaching workload with “distance education,” linking 1500 universities through a dedicated fiber-optic Internet link.

India is also hoping that foreign universities will help raise the game of indigenous institutions by offering competition. The Indian Parliament is considering a proposal that would provide the legal framework for overseas institutions to set up shop in India. Parts of the bill have raised concerns about built-in barriers, including a provision that would ask foreign institutions to make a deposit of at least $12 million to regulators before opening a campus in India. That has deterred potential suitors, including the Georgia Institute of Technology in Atlanta and the University of California, Berkeley.

In the meantime, India has taken steps to increase the talent pool further up the pipeline. One program getting high marks is Innovation in Science Pursuit for Inspired Research, a government initiative spearheaded by the science ministry that in the past 2 years has awarded scholarships to 350,000 outstanding high school science students. The grants are small—about $125 per student—but the intention is to boost morale and keep students interested in science, says T. Ramasami, secretary of the Department of Science and Technology here. “We hope to catch them young and build a cadre of top-quality researchers,” he says.

Ramasami and others have faith that India's education system can regain lost luster—and uncover hidden talents like Mylswamy Annadurai. An engineer from Coimbatore in southern India, Annadurai admits he had never left the small town before completing his postgraduate engineering education. He went on to become project director for the country's first moon mission, Chandrayaan-1. Annadurai credits his university experience for “daring to dream big while not worrying about failure.”

India desperately needs more homegrown stars, says Singh's science adviser, chemist C. N. R. Rao of the Jawaharlal Nehru Centre for Advanced Scientific Research in Bangalore, who hopes his council's report last week will spur the government to prepare a road map for higher education. “There is so much hidden talent in India” that will blossom when it finds fertile ground, Rao says.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 19 Jun 2011 07:13

I happened to be in a small store, when a poor couple walked in with their daughter to shop for a school uniform. The daughter needed an uniform because the one she had was bought 4 years ago, and now was too short for her. But she's now in the 10th grade, and this uniform costs Rs. 450. And since she will go to 11th where they don't have a uniform, this is money they will spend only for the one year.

I must admit this overturned my notions of why school uniforms are used in Indian schools. It would help such cases if uniforms were funded by the government through the RTE Act or education tax, or better yet abolished in government and government-aided schools altogether. More money can then go to textbooks or other education needs.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 19 Jun 2011 09:54

GET AN IDEA: Those who join IITs should not assume that success is assured in life.

http://www.thehindu.com/education/issue ... 104434.ece

What compounds this issue is the lack of clarity among the candidates as to what next after clearing JEE. Most end up taking up courses at the IITs without a regard for their interests, without the slightest knowledge of what they are going to study for the next four years. In essence, most candidates end up selecting their undergraduate majors based on what the previous year rank holder did or which IIT is closer to their hometown.

Lower ranked students are faced with even more confusing situations such as going for a popular branch at the NITs or BITS, skipping the IITs, and exercising the option of dropping a year. Add to all this the fact that parents are concerned about ragging and the stress levels at IITs.

IIT-Kharagpur last year in Mechanical Engineering. But he is now working with a multinational bank. Why would banks recruit engineers from IIT?

Most MNC banks have started to set base in India and they prefer IITians as they have a strong base in engineering mathematics which helps them cope with the rigours of quantitative finance better than other graduates.

{mmm... that should be because they pay well.. but what a waste!!!!of talent}

I have heard that IITs are full of nerds and geeks. Will I be able to challenge myself in sports at IIT? Will there be enough opportunities?

{totally directionless!!}

nithish · Post by **nithish** » 19 Jun 2011 23:02

vera_k wrote:I happened to be in a small store, when a poor couple walked in with their daughter to shop for a school uniform. The daughter needed an uniform because the one she had was bought 4 years ago, and now was too short for her. But she's now in the 10th grade, and this uniform costs Rs. 450. And since she will go to 11th where they don't have a uniform, this is money they will spend only for the one year.

I must admit this overturned my notions of why school uniforms are used in Indian schools. It would help such cases if uniforms were funded by the government through the RTE Act or education tax, or better yet abolished in government and government-aided schools altogether. More money can then go to textbooks or other education needs.

School uniform distribution scheme launched

Rajasthan Cosmo Club Foundation (RCCF) on Sunday launched the distribution of 23,501 sets of school uniforms under its flagship “Cloth Bank” scheme.

The initiative will provide brand new custom-fit uniforms to underprivileged children in 305 schools in and around Chennai.

Launching the distribution of uniforms worth an estimated Rs. 70 lakh, Assembly Speaker D. Jayakumar stressed the importance of engaging in social service. “Only if one engages in community service does one's life become meaningful,” he said.

He urged the RCCF to continue with its range of yeomen initiatives such as the Book Bank, Food Bank and Cloth Bank. He noted that two of these initiatives addressed the basic needs of mankind – food and clothing.

Recalling his association with the RCCF during his tenure as Electricity Minister in the previous regime led by Chief Minister Jayalalithaa, Mr. Jayakumar said he had participated in the distribution of relief materials to the people ravaged by the tsunami in 2004, and also when a Food Bank was launched.

The Speaker also launched a DVD on the RCCF journey. N. Balaganga, MP, was also present.

T. R. Achha, RCCF president, said putting together the sets of uniform under the “Sri Badalchand Sugan Kavur Chordia Uniform Scheme” involved 36,000 man hours and 54,200 metres of mill cloth. Sunil Chopra, RCCF managing trustee, said the Cloth Bank which started as a recycling project for worn clothes had now evolved into an ISO 9000 certified mechanism that also took up distribution of new garments.

Jagdish Sarda, New School Uniform scheme chairman, said the new uniforms would benefit students, mostly in corporation schools in and around Chennai. The uniforms were available in about eight patterns and 153 colours.

Champalal Sarda, chairman, Sri Maheswari Hospital and Research Centre Trust, and R. Prasanchand Chordia, managing trustee, S. Badalchand Chordia Trust, also participated.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Jun 2011 05:23

nithish wrote:School uniform distribution scheme launched

There are sporadic initiatives, but getting one of these depends on the students luck on where she lives or what school she goes to. And then there's the children who will go to private schools using the 25% reservation under RTE. But if the requirement for uniforms is eliminated, it would be an end-run around the problem altogether. Though there will have to be such assistance schemes for the poor children who go to private schools using RTE.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 20 Jun 2011 18:29

hi vera,

school uniforms are net good. i have studied in rural/semi rural schools and colleges. the problems of non-uniform dress code are much more. during my time, for many, the best dress was the uniform. without uniform parents will have to invest in multiple good dresses. at one point during high school, the only pant i had was the uniform pant and the only shoes i had were the two pairs of mandatory school shoes. i could be fairly nattily dressed if i was allowed to wear panche to school. but that was not allowed. so it became a bit of problem for a while.

shaardula · Post by **shaardula** » 20 Jun 2011 18:45

i have a random seed about about high school syllabus. it will be great if gurus can give inputs.

for a good number of kids high school (sslc/puc) is it, as far as education is concerned. in those 10-12 years, reading, comprehension, number crunching, science - rationality, world view and culture are the broad categories that are taught. many kids learn other things in addition like arts etc.

this is a full syllabus and quite comprehensive. but most of it is abstract. i think they somehow have to make some room somewhere and get some basic engineering into the curriculum. simple stuff. like gears and mechanisms. i have a feeling many kids will take fancy to this especially because they see it in their normal day to day life.

ofcourse given the problems of schooling this will prolly be more of a burden. but just as a thought experiment, wouldn't bare basic engineering be a good thing to top off your high school education?

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 21 Jun 2011 07:35

^^^

Not having an uniform doesn't mean that students are allowed to wear anything and everything. Standard rules like length of skirts or tops, type of wear (western or native) or display of religious symbols would still apply. The idea is that parents do not have to invest in clothes that serve a specific purpose, and are allowed to spread their investment over many years if required.

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 21 Jun 2011 10:08

Avinash Dixit retired recently. He was probably one of the best economists of his generation (with Amartya Sen and Jagdish Bhagwati). He was a University Professor (highest possible position) at Princeton.

American Economic Review published a set of best 20 papers of last century published in their journal. Professor Dixit had one paper in that list. (Joseph Stiglitz and Peter Diamond had 2 papers each.)

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 21 Jun 2011 11:33

Of course this is a random reflection, but at times, I can't help but wonder at how we are all speaking English. I speak English far better than I can speak Hindi, my notional mothertongue, because of how I was educated. I wonder why being "educated" so often technically really only equals "English"?

Why do we not have Engineering colleges which teach in Hindi, or Sanskrit, or Marathi, or Telegu, or Tamil, or Bengali?

Can one not be a competent engineer in these languages? Or a competent Economist? Or Manager? Or Doctor?

Macaulay really scr*wed us over!

Arjun · Post by **Arjun** » 21 Jun 2011 12:02

Boom and bust. Although more than 100 elite institutions have opened in the past 5 years, competition is fiercer than ever. Last year, only 3% of students, including these at a cram school in Kota, India, passed IIT's entrance exam

'Cram schools' is an insulting, western-centric nomenclature for these coaching centers. An examination like the JEE simply cannot be passed by cramming or memorization.

Agreed that nomenclature does not necessarily have to be very respectful given the seediness of some of these 'institutes' - but 'cramming' is not the right word at least for the JEE.