Future strategic scenario for the Indian Subcontinent

[Samay]

d with China and PRC since 1850s. Why should there be surprise if US makes PRC as the pivot in the Asian strategy.
I think it will be highly impractical, the cause and effect relationship cannot contradict each other.

In this case ,this was a possibility a decade ago,but not after 9/11., things are changing,faster than they could be predicted,.

Can you give me any evidence of the change

change is evident in the chinese themselves , it may not be in americans, but they have a smell of it, i feel they wont let things happen as they are.
the chinese dont want a pivotal ,or partial control role given in baksheesh ,and will to go all extents to demolish any sign of democratic presence in asia.
America's exit from asia will be very painful,even more than ussr.

[RamaY]

Taking my whine out of this thread. Apologies!

[Atri]

I guess time is forcing us towards playing the Tibet card..... We have avoided it for too long....

If US facilitates China to take over the control of Af-Pak, then moment the take-over is complete, that is the moment when shit hits the fan....I guess, Bhaarat's "tryst with destiny" slowly removing the options from our table, which will force her to play some cards she was not playing for long time.. It is slowly getting "perform or perish"...

[harbans]

I guess time is forcing us towards playing the Tibet card..... We have avoided it for too long....

Well said! We are being too defensive. We should have had enough of this crap by now. Half our lands gone to a different ideology. One piece thats originally the land of Rishi Kashyap is being called 'disputed'. Buddhism being claimed a part by atheistic Han chinese to the extent they want 'South Tibet' too! What is the turn around point of SHAME for us Indians?

I even wonder why is it taking 10 long years for BRF to discuss strike potential into Tibet for example? Have we gamed scenarios of striking deep into Tibet and cutting the Chinese off? The stability of this region will require as a prerequisite India playing strongly the Tibet card. We are doomed otherwise.

[ramana]

I guess time is forcing us towards playing the Tibet card..... We have avoided it for too long....

Well said! We are being too defensive. We should have had enough of this crap by now. Half our lands gone to a different ideology. One piece thats originally the land of Rishi Kashyap is being called 'disputed'. Buddhism being claimed a part by atheistic Han chinese to the extent they want 'South Tibet' too! What is the turn around point of SHAME for us Indians?

I even wonder why is it taking 10 long years for BRF to discuss strike potential into Tibet for example? Have we gamed scenarios of striking deep into Tibet and cutting the Chinese off? The stability of this region will require as a prerequisite India playing strongly the Tibet card. We are doomed otherwise.

harbans, BRF has been looking at PRC. please go thru some of the threads in this archive

Mil Scenarios Archive

I think its Operation Checkerboard without the follow on exercises and actions that convinced the PRC to transfer the delivery vehicles to TSP.

BTW there is a different key for PRC to unravel.

[raji]

I guess time is forcing us towards playing the Tibet card..... We have avoided it for too long....

Well said! We are being too defensive. We should have had enough of this crap by now. Half our lands gone to a different ideology. One piece thats originally the land of Rishi Kashyap is being called 'disputed'. Buddhism being claimed a part by atheistic Han chinese to the extent they want 'South Tibet' too! What is the turn around point of SHAME for us Indians?

I even wonder why is it taking 10 long years for BRF to discuss strike potential into Tibet for example? Have we gamed scenarios of striking deep into Tibet and cutting the Chinese off? The stability of this region will require as a prerequisite India playing strongly the Tibet card. We are doomed otherwise.

Last several posts we have lamented the fact that the US is considering conceding some geo-strategic space to PRC and not even acknowledging Indian interests and capabilities, leave aside offering a strategic dialogue with India on Central Asia and other regions. With all the talk of democracy and enlightenment, we still live in the law of the jungle. If we flex our muscles, we will get more attention. Case in point, the Indian nuclear tests. In the immediate aftermath there was lot of indignation, denial and downright hostility from the West, but it dissipated soon after and resulted in the Nuclear Deal, which despite not recognizing India explicitly as a nuclear weapons power, certainly implies so. All this, a result of strong action of conducting the nuclear tests. North Koreans were also rewarded after they made known their nuclear capabilities. Until and unless India flexes its muscle, like Harbans suggests, it is going to get no attention and no bread. I would even be milder than Harbans and say that initially even military adventure is not required vis-a-vis PRC, although preparadness should be there to deter. All that is required right now is a bold diplomatic move, derecognizing Tibet as a part of China, unequivocally, categorically with no qualifications. Tibet is not and was never a part of China. India categorically rejects the stand its former governments took under Macaulyite influence. Just like China doesnt recognize the Mcmahon line because it was Western drawn, India now rejects its past tacit acceptance of China's suzerenty over Tibet because it was Macaulay influenced. Before it makes such a declaration, however, India has to be prepared militarily for a thrust into Tibet, if the Chinese first make any military moves in response to such a declarations by India.

But.....but.......there is a big BUTT.

Where is the evidence, that anyone in the Indian government, south block, media, public and private strategic discourse, other than places like BRF, are even discussing or thinking along these lines ? If not exactly this move, what is the evidence that anyone in the government or the governing hierarchy or media even contemplating any flexing of muscle anywhere ?

Do you seriously think any of these politicians, every single one of them criminals, including MMS (for abetting, or condoning corruption), have time to think about anything other than how to cobble together alliances, next state elections, next local elections, quibbling over portfolio distributions, infighting, and making money ? Have anyone given you a clue that they may actually be thinking of India's strategic posture ? Maybe, every now and then when one of the foreign service guy retires and doesnt have the opportunity to be part of the above mentioned shenanigans anymore, does he then come out with a lame article or two about how India should think strategically. What has he been doing when he was in office for 30 or 40 years ?

[ramana]

We have a thread for whines in the GD Forum.

ramana

[brihaspati]

raji wrote
What has he been doing when he was in office for 30 or 40 years ?

He would be under the sword of "mantragupti" and any deviation could land him in a deeper freeze than available in Antarctica.

[ramana]

Most people are familiar with US reports from RAND, Goldman Sachs etc. Here is a Britsh prespective:

I think one should become acquainted with this 106 page pdf on

DCDC Report on Global Trends 2007- 2036

[svinayak]

Most people are familiar with US reports from RAND, Goldman Sachs etc. Here is a Britsh prespective:

I think one should become acquainted with this 106 page pdf on

DCDC Report on Global Trends 2007- 2036

Youth Reaction

Declining youth populations in Western societies could become increasingly dissatisfied with their economically burdensome ‘baby-boomer’ elders, among whom much of societies’ wealth would be concentrated. Resentful at a generation whose values appear to be out of step with tightening resource constraints, the young might seek a return to an order provided by more conservative values and structures. This could lead to a civic renaissance, with strict penalties for those failing to fulfil their social obligations. It might also open the way to policies which permit euthanasia as a means to reduce the burden of care for the elderly.

The Middle Class Proletariat

The middle classes could become a revolutionary class, taking the role envisaged for the proletariat by Marx. The globalization of labour markets and reducing levels of national welfare provision and employment could reduce peoples’ attachment to particular states. The growing gap between themselves and a small number of highly visible super-rich individuals might fuel disillusion with meritocracy, while the growing urban under-classes are likely to pose an increasing threat to social order and stability, as the burden of acquired debt and the failure of pension provision begins to bite. Faced by these twin challenges, the world’s middle-classes might unite, using access to knowledge, resources and skills to shape transnational processes in their own class interest.

Terrorist Coalition of the Willing

Islamist terrorism is likely to remain the most obvious manifestation of the international terrorist threat until at least 2020. However, changes in the strategic context could cause this threat to evolve in unusual ways. A generational change among leading Islamist terrorists could lead to a more broadly based coalition of opposition to the cultural invasion caused by globalization and modernization. A terrorist coalition, including a wide range of reactionary and revolutionary rejectionists, such as ultra‑nationalists, religious groupings and even extreme environmentalists, might conduct a global campaign of greater intensity.

[brihaspati]

The croaking of all frogs start at the same time - indicating that they are all croaking for a common purpose. Before hoping too much about Tibetan "derecognition", etc., please note that similar sounds have been made both at Washinton and New Delhi about NK nuke experiment.

My hunch will be that part of the scenario that allowed a renewal of the MMS led GOI for another term, also included tacit understandings about foreign policy. Here, it would have been crucial that a GOI was elected that would not take offensive action against the gradual replacement of direct US presence with PRC presence, and would do its best to tone down "nationalistic" counter-reaction.

It is possible that the inner corridors of power in New Delhi are already quite worried about the consequences of this takeover by PRC as facilitated by USA. To prevent an internal political backlash, there will be gradual public "leaks" and increasing tolerance of the possibility of "hostile PRC action" and getting the oublic used to it. This turns around public attention from TSP, and what happens there to facilitate the TalebPA, towards supposed PRC aggression. However, nothing really will be done in terms of forward projection of power, and only defensive measures will be undertaken. GOI will probably try to pressurize Unkil as much as possible in terms of previous "understandings" to see to it that PRC is not allowed so much leeway as to have negative political reaction in the domestic scenario.

Contrary to what many think here - the time for "action" out of necessity or force of circumstances is not a necessity of the brand of politics established in India from 47. The trick is to take it to the point and make it so, where the public opinion simply gets too exhausted and agrees to "small scarifices" to end things "peacefully".

[ramana]

Wasnt it really started before that in 1935?

It is possible that the inner corridors of power in New Delhi are already quite worried about the consequences of this takeover by PRC as facilitated by USA. To prevent an internal political backlash, there will be gradual public "leaks" and increasing tolerance of the possibility of "hostile PRC action" and getting the oublic used to it. This turns around public attention from TSP, and what happens there to facilitate the TalebPA, towards supposed PRC aggression. However, nothing really will be done in terms of forward projection of power, and only defensive measures will be undertaken. GOI will probably try to pressurize Unkil as much as possible in terms of previous "understandings" to see to it that PRC is not allowed so much leeway as to have negative political reaction in the domestic scenario.

Recall that Shyam Saran has already fired a shot across the bow about the US-PRC new relationship in his speech in January 2009.

So you might turn out to be right but I trust the PRC instincts.They will teach India a lesson again for the nuke deal. They wont take peacably whats given to them on platter without smacking the bearer to show their dominance. They will adminster a jhapad and I hope Indian Army wont come up wiht mobilization excuses. Last time there was the excuse of JLN and his nephew. What will it be now?

[svinayak]

Contrary to what many think here - the time for "action" out of necessity or force of circumstances is not a necessity of the brand of politics established in India from 47. The trick is to take it to the point and make it so, where the public opinion simply gets too exhausted and agrees to "small scarifices" to end things "peacefully".

This has happened many times in the last 25 years where India never took any measures to protect its national interest - security and economy.

It is known as scientific method of persuasion using various method.

India is the object of one of the largest experiment in this area. Media can take care of atleast 20% of the population. False debate and false information can take care of another 20 percent. The rest in the middle are persuaded over a period of time to concede and give away their position and red lines.

[brihaspati]

It is for the slime of the type of politics established so far, that the lower ranks of the IA suffer. I had reports from those who participated in action against the first one by PRC, how they almost cried of frustration because they simply could not use their rifles with frost-bitten fingers. The commanders of course wrote their explanations, especially the one closely related to the top political leader.

The IA is unlikely to have been equipped to face up to PRC. I am positive that GOI will make public statements about raising specialized troops to defend borders with China. But things were ominous to me already, when in the locked elections thread, I had wondered about the insistence on non-participation in the government by the real individuals at the centre of power - the dynasty. This meant for me, that this gov will be forced to carry out measures and take steps that are risky in political terms, and the dynasty had to be protected from such taints. The GOI is aware of the situation, and has been given the task of undertaking "damage" control.

[RamaY]

Recall that Shyam Saran has already fired a shot across the bow about the US-PRC new relationship in his speech in January 2009.

So you might turn out to be right but I trust the PRC instincts.They will teach India a lesson again for the nuke deal. They wont take peacably whats given to them on platter without smacking the bearer to show their dominance. They will adminster a jhapad and I hope Indian Army wont come up wiht mobilization excuses. Last time there was the excuse of JLN and his nephew. What will it be now?

Ramanaji,

This resident prophet had a revelation from TGU (the guy upstairs) sometime in June’08 predicting this very outcome during the nuke-deal discussion. I tried to find that post but it is too much work. So I give you this new revelation, which will override the old one.

Don’t worry! Our enlightened leadership will never fail us in finding excuses. History proved that again and again.

PBUM

[Keshav]

Brihaspati -
Generally, your scholarship is top notch, but as of late it seems you have taken the conspiracy bait about foreign powers a wee bit seriously.

The first part of your post seems logical but governments generally do not plant themselves inside another to pull strings. Geopolitics isn't a puppet show, its more like a case of dogs and carrot sticks.

All you're doing is nuding them in the right direction or bargaining with them with physical chips.

The Chinese are never going to take over because they lack the cold, brutal, finesse of the British. The British smooth talked there away into every rajas bed and raped the whole country.

If the Chinese wanted to invade, they would stupid enough to send tanks over the border.

Let's say, for example, in the highly unlikely scenario that the IA does not succeed to defeat the Chinese. Do you think the average Indian is going to sit down and take it? They've tasted freedom. They'll be huge uprisings.

I don't understand why you think Congress is going to let USA walk all over it.

[RamaY]

^^^

Every civilization (or nation-state/nation/state/kingdom) was free before occupation at one point or other in History.

If you have any doubts about PRC's capability in having cold, brutal finesse kindly read chinese history.

For example take PRC handling of Aksai-chin, Tibet, Arunachal Pradesh, Uighurs, Tiwan. All these places are disputed territories. But different parts of outside world sees these issues differently. Some consider 1,2 as disputed but not 3,4, and 5. Another group considers 1, 3 but not others so on.

See how cool PRC is playing with Pak-Af, NK, Sudan, Iran problems.

[brihaspati]

Keshavji,
I am used to keeping my mind open to possibilities, and no idea is so much a taboo for me that I dare not explore it, and use my dissective power on it. So, what is a CT for some is a possibility for me that has to be rigorously evaluated, and neither rejected nor accepted blindly or without testing, or if not testable now, kept in suspended "animation". I look for patterns of behaviour, and signals that are given out by people or entities without being aware of them.

It is better not to take public statements of "powers" literally or at face-value. Many different statements, actual actions, economic and other data from a wide range of sources, historical or ideological commitments, all should be looked at comprehensively as a filter to extract the reality.

The Chinese communists were a special section of my personal research into the "Left". There is a certain historical continuity in their thinking dating back from their first "unification" under the legendary "first emperor". They are quite ruthless in the planning and execution of their agenda. The Maoist "Sinification of Marxism" was firmly based on adaptation of Chinese historical motifs, and understanding, and basically reworked the older unificatory ideologies that justified imperialist consolidation. In a way it was the second successful "peasant" uprising that created a new centralized authority.

No, the Chinese tactics will not be "brutal" and straightforward. Their military thinking has continued to evolve but they retain the framework of "mobile warfare" as part of their repertoire. I would not be surprised, if the PLA is already involved in the training of PA irregulars and the Talebs in the west and the ethnic separatists in NE against India. If invited by the US to fill-in-the-blanks in TSP, they will increase posturing in the NE, while they simply let loose the Talebs onto India. They realize the danger of Jihadis being able to connect to their own domestic ones through the corridor they themselves have opened up via KKH. So they would be keen to be present in this northern zone to prevent the linkup that I had proposed many times to be encouraged by India as a kind of safe-passage for the Talebs.

They cannot take the risk of outright aggression and annexation, because that can scare a lot of the smaller nations in SE Asia. But they will promote all sorts of fractures in the "north". It helps them if they are legitimately invited by one faction or the other in the subcontinent.

[brihaspati]

Keshav wrote
I don't understand why you think Congress is going to let USA walk all over it.

If you look carefully at the history of the Congress, every leader, especially of the dynasty, who has tried to take independent initiative in foreign affairs/domain, have been severely penalized. JLN was slapped through the PRC invasion, LBS finished under mysterious circumstances, IG was liquidated through "separatists", and RG(senior) liquidated through external "separtists". Look carefully at the foreign policy initiatives under each of them, and in each case it went against some "foreign" interest not part of South Asia. If you look at the groups mostly affected, you will see US+UK firmly in sight. The Congress has learnt its lesson well.

[svinayak]

Keshavji,
I am used to keeping my mind open to possibilities, and no idea is so much a taboo for me that I dare not explore it, and use my dissective power on it. So, what is a CT for some is a possibility for me that has to be rigorously evaluated, and neither rejected nor accepted blindly or without testing, or if not testable now, kept in suspended "animation". I look for patterns of behaviour, and signals that are given out by people or entities without being aware of them.

It is better not to take public statements of "powers" literally or at face-value.

As they say - There should be no failure of Imagination -

[svinayak]

Where is the evidence, that anyone in the Indian government, south block, media, public and private strategic discourse, other than places like BRF, are even discussing or thinking along these lines ? If not exactly this move, what is the evidence that anyone in the government or the governing hierarchy or media even contemplating any flexing of muscle anywhere ?

People want to know - whom do you represent Raji. Are you in the side of the Hindus, secularists or just fence sitter or a social commentator.

They all have different view points and they have groups which they belong to. You have to belong to some group - Either social, religious, political etc.

[shiv]

Shiv, If it werent for your earlier status as a Forum Admin and your penchant to experiment/play wihh members minds (aka pisko games, btw I object to it as I honor/value the members who have taken the commitment to register in their nationalist Forum and they are not any lab inmates), I would have surely thought you were trying your best to derail this thread. As evidence I point to the fact you brought in corruption in this thread and made it sound like its endemic to India. There is a whole forum now to discuss such topics. In the Hindutva thread you posted links to Hindu organizations blurring the lines between Hindu and Hindutva and the admins were forced to lock it up.

Next you bring/come up with what is nationalism and what is India centric thinking? The latter is a geographic term which denies India is a nation-state. While the earlier is political discourse term. The latter is chosen by those who dont believe in India as a nation state.

BTW, the reason why this is off topic is I have a thread on Indian National Interests for last five years. If you were really serious about your question, you would have posted there. See it has India, national and interests. A perfect trifecta of topics for your proposition. Yet you want to post here and we lost this whole page to patter and members are forced to resort to vernacular in their frustration.

Ian Fleming in Goldfinger writes "Once is happenstance, twice is conicidence and thrice is enemy action!"
So where are you on this path?

Ramana

You are forum admin.

You define what you think is right and brook no dissent. That is of course your right as respected forum administrator who has laid down his nationalist credentials. Unlike others such as myself perhaps?

I disagree with you on enough counts to fill several threads but I will not argue after saying what needs to be said because you are now using your power to to bring up old grievances (which you did not do as fellow adminstrator) and control the flow of discussion down a particular path that suits your viewpoint and keeps you comfortable.

Please consider how you are bending others minds by stopping certain lines of thought and locking up certain threads and encouraging discussion along certain threads that you claim ownership - like the "Indian interests thread", where you exert the same control. And you accuse me of playing mind games? Surely that is laughable ramana. Thanks but no thanks.

We all do that as administrators. Long ago I wrote that a forum is always populated by people who agree with the forum admins. I hope you can admit that without blaming me for playing games that you claim not to play.

[ramana]

Fair enough shiv. Thanks for the reply.
ramana

[raji]

Where is the evidence, that anyone in the Indian government, south block, media, public and private strategic discourse, other than places like BRF, are even discussing or thinking along these lines ? If not exactly this move, what is the evidence that anyone in the government or the governing hierarchy or media even contemplating any flexing of muscle anywhere ?

People want to know - whom do you represent Raji. Are you in the side of the Hindus, secularists or just fence sitter or a social commentator.

They all have different view points and they have groups which they belong to. You have to belong to some group - Either social, religious, political etc.

Acharya,

I really havent given any thought to assigning any label to myself. But I like to think, like everyone with self respect, that I am a seeker of truth. Truth to me is beauty, truth is honesty, truth is art, truth is pure science and truth is God, because where beauty, honesty, art and science converge (in truth), it is "Nirvana"......

So, a seeker of truth first. As a seeker, I like to see fairness among people. Everyone should get what they deserve and no one should be denied what they deserve.

Using this yardstick, I will be the first to raise a voice to protect Islam, for example, if I find them discriminated against. It is not a black and white issue, but I do think that there may be some merit in the Palestanian argument, because, after all, a whole lot of people, exodused from Europe, because the Europeans basically drove them out and settled in predominantly Palestinian areas. No, initially the Jews did not displace the palestinians, but nevertheless, settling a very large number of people does upset the applecart and the Palestinians were not asked or taken into confidence. Later, the Palestinians and the Arabs in general behaved in ways that weakened their argument to a point where I now feel they almost dont have one.

The reverse is the case with the Americans. They built their country by slaughtering the Native populations (please, everybody who hasnt, read "Bury my heart at Wonded Knee")......so, their claims to their country in the begining were blatantly based on conquest and therefore illegitmate. But their successive actions, particularly in the 1900s, have gone a long way to make up for that illegitimacy to a point where they are almost a legitimate nation, in my view at this point.

Using the same yardstick, I cannot but be concerned about the decimation of Hindu culture and people. They have been subjected to centuries of atrocities and oppression. But at the core of it, it was Corruption amongst the Hindus, which caused them to time and again snatch defeat from the jaws of victory. Treachery is a symptom. Corruption is the cause. Time and again, we had treachery from within, which made the job of our enemies easier. Not only was corruption the cause of it, but we committed an even greater sin. We continued to make the same mistake, over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. We never learnt from history and never learnt from our mistakes. Where I am torn at this point when it comes to the Hindus is this. Are our sins of corruption so vast, or the "pot of our sins so full", that we now deserve the punishment of death ? Or do we still get another chance or give ourselves another chance, before we are subjected to the death penalty as a people or culture ? Who will inflict this on us ? Nature. Nature will punish us if we dont logically do things that are necessary for us to survive, and corruption is what we have to get rid of for us to survive. Nature will inflict this punishment on us through its law. Nature's law is the law of the jungle-survival of the fittest. Only way to strengthen ourselves is to have a strong internally cohesive society which cannot exist with corruption.

I would like for all people to survive, thrive and prosper and co-exist. Therefore, I would like Hindu culture to survive, thrive and prosper. If I thought Islam was in mortal danger, I would fee equally strongly about preserving it, minus the beheadings and women's oppression and the concepts of jihad and kaffir. But it is not. Christianity is not in any immediate danger right now. Jews may be a little more so. But Hinduism is the only major culture in mortal danger. So I have this great desire to find ways to preserve it. That is the truth.

Only truth can preserve us. Only God can preserve us. Truth and God is one and the same thing. Corruption is the opposite of truth. Corruption is Satan. Those of us who think that we can co-exist with corruption are wishing that Satan and God can co-exist........that rules of nature will be nullified........no one can nullify the laws of nature....either we embrace truth or die.......

[Virupaksha]

Raji,
if there is/was a contest of dhimmitude, your post will take the cake.

You will forgive US when they almost exterminated killing 50-90% of a civilization, because well they have gained it by giving some insignificant bheek. According to you "You are the first to rise for protecting islam- if they are discriminated against". So faults of others are either forgiven or it is the fault of others. but "using the same yardstick" the decimation of hindu culture is the fault of hindus only.... wah, bhai wah- if you please sell me that yardstick, I will become a millionaire. for while buying it will show 1yard is 1cm but selling it becomes 1 km.

I think we are already stepping out of bounds of this thread topic, so I am stopping here. You sir, I am not going to ask you to stop- for these are the very same convoluted and illogical logics which provide some laughs.

[raji]

Raji,
if there is/was a contest of dhimmitude, your post will take the cake.

You will forgive US when they almost exterminated killing 50-90% of a civilization, because well they have gained it by giving some insignificant bheek. According to you "You are the first to rise for protecting islam- if they are discriminated against". So faults of others are either forgiven or it is the fault of others. but "using the same yardstick" the decimation of hindu culture is the fault of hindus only.... wah, bhai wah- if you please sell me that yardstick, I will become a millionaire. for while buying it will show 1yard is 1cm but selling it becomes 1 km.

I think we are already stepping out of bounds of this thread topic, so I am stopping here. You sir, I am not going to ask you to stop- for these are the very same convoluted and illogical logics which provide some laughs.

If you know you are out of bounds on this thread or feel that you are, why are you posting anyway ?

You have turned my post on its head. Hindus cannot be saved by blaming others. We have to empower ourselves. Then we wont have to blame anyone, because we wont allow anyone to mess with us.

I have not forgiven anybody. But, no matter how much you bait me, I will not be in favor of a genocide against Americans or Muslims........to punish them for their prior misdeeds. On the other hand, I will be all for restitution, restoration or reparations by them to those they sinned against......

And if you are so interested in punishing others for oppressing us Hindus in the past........I will make you a deal......work with me to empower ourselves......once we have the power, I will focus on preventing further oppression of our people and culture in the future, while you focus on using that power to punish those who oppressed us in the past........

Just remember, though.......without empowering ourselves and exorcising ourselves of corruption, you cant carry out your revenge........

[Virupaksha]

You have turned my post on its head. Hindus cannot be saved by blaming others. We have to empower ourselves. Then we wont have to blame anyone, because we wont allow anyone to mess with us.

hindus also cannot be saved by blaming only themselves - I do not think this is a such a hard concept. In my eyes, what you had written was an unqualified whine and a large towel.

The strategic scenario of anyone is improved in the long run not by adjusting yourselves to a situation, but by adjusting the situation to suit you. If you running after a situation operated by others, the only thing you will achieve is a big continuous whine.

You do not win by following the rules, you win by setting the rules. You are asking and for the most part, US, NPT, muslims etc are setting the rules and then asking us to follow them.

[ramana]

Enough. No more guys.

BTw Any one recall that Acharya had posted an upside down map and all were agog? Well here is a pdf from Down under that has the world fromthier point of view.

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2007science/Da ... indsay.pdf

Can anyone make a map with India at the center akin to slide 2?

ramana

[raji]

You have turned my post on its head. Hindus cannot be saved by blaming others. We have to empower ourselves. Then we wont have to blame anyone, because we wont allow anyone to mess with us.

hindus also cannot be saved by blaming only themselves - I do not think this is a such a hard concept. In my eyes, what you had written was an unqualified whine and a large towel.

The strategic scenario of anyone is improved in the long run not by adjusting yourselves to a situation, but by adjusting the situation to suit you. If you running after a situation operated by others, the only thing you will achieve is a big continuous whine.

You do not win by following the rules, you win by setting the rules. You are asking and for the most part, US, NPT, muslims etc are setting the rules and then asking us to follow them.

Ramana is right. Your post so misrepresnts my position that I wont dignify it with an answer.

If anyone else agrees with you, I will be happy to respond to them, but my conversation with you is over.

[samuel]

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/india_up ... border.php

It now seems clear that India is slowly but surely being surrounded by China with the growing influence that the Chinese have in each of India's neighbours -- Pakistan, Nepal, Burma and now even Sri Lanka.

[samuel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karakoram_Highway

Railway

In 2007, consultants [2] were engaged to investigate the construction of a railway through this pass to connect China with Pakistan.

whilst we ponder the finer details:

[samuel]

http://www.stratpost.com/arunachal-mp-c ... y-of-china

Rijiju thinks India is overcautious in its approach to its eastern neighbor. “We as a country believe ourselves to be at a lower level when dealing with China. We are not dealing with them on equal terms. There is an inferiority complex on our part. I’m not saying we have to be aggressive in our dealings with them, but we have to be firm. I’m an advocate of perfectly cordial relations with China,” he offers.

[samuel]

And this is from 2006, we are waking up just now?

http://english.people.com.cn/200610/26/ ... 15101.html

China was ready to work with Sri Lanka to lift the bilateral relations into a new high, said a senior official with the Communist Party of China (CPC) Wednesday in Beijing.

Wu Guanzheng, member of the Standing Committee of the Political Bureau of the CPC Central Committee, made the remarks at a meeting with a delegation of the Sri Lanka Freedom Party.

China and Sri Lanka enjoy long-term history of friendly exchanges, Wu said, noting that since forging diplomatic ties 49 years ago, the two nations have witnessed fruitful cooperation in politics, economy and culture, and the two peoples have established profound friendship.

[samuel]

This is not top secret; it's wikipedia.
Say, what are we doing about this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh ... _relations

Army of Bangladesh has been equipped with Chinese tanks, its navy has Chinese frigates and missile boats and the Bangladesh Air Force flies Chinese fighter jets. In 2002, China and Bangladesh have signed a “Defence Cooperation Agreement” which covers military training and defence production. China is also reported to pay money like US$25 million for a ‘China-Bangladesh Friendship Centre’.”[14]

In 2006, in a report submitted to the United Nations by China, for its exports and imports of major conventional arms revealed Dhaka is emerging as the prime buyer of weapons made in China. China sold 65 large caliber artillery systems, 16 combat aircraft and 114 missile and related equipment to Bangladesh in 2005. Besides this, some 200 small arms like pistols and sub-machine guns have been imported along with regular 82-mm mortars.[15]

In 2008, Bangladesh has set up a missile launch pad near the Chittagong Port with assistance from China. Breaking unusual protocol of informing India about its missile tests, Bangladesh's missile program. Bangladesh performed maiden missile test on May 12, 2008 with active participation of Chinese experts. It successfully test-fired land attack anti-ship cruise missile C-802A with a strike range of 120 km from the frigate BNS Osman near Kutubdia Island in the Bay of Bengal. BNS Osman is frigate class ship, commissioned by the Navy of Bangladesh in 1989, is a 1500-ton Chinese built Jianghu class warship, and the C-802A missile, according to experts, is a modified version of Chinese Ying Ji-802 (western version SACCADE) with weight reduced from 815-715 kg to increase strike range from 42-120 km. This enhanced strike radius that has left Indian security agencies worried.[16]

[samuel]

http://www.fmprc.gov.cn/ce/cenp/eng/Chi ... 403039.htm

COAS of Nepal Army paid a visit to China
2008-01-13

Chief of Army Staff (COAS) of Nepalese Army, General Rookmangud Katwal, who led a seven-member's delegation, paid a week-long formal visit to China from January 4 to 12, 2008 at the invitation of General Staff of the People's Liberation Army of China. During their stay in China, Gen. Katwal visited Chengdu, Beijing and Shanghai, and held warm, friendly, frank and pragmatic meetings with Gen. Cao Gangchuan, deputy chairman of the central military committee and defense minister of China, his counterpart Gen. Chen Binde, and other Chinese army leads. They discussed the new ways to further enhance military relations and step up military cooperation between the two militaries.

These alarming developments aren't even recent.

S


http://www.tibetsun.com/archive/2009/01 ... pals-army/

Is China making efforts to gain influence in Nepal’s Army by taking advantage of Maoists being in power? Worries in this regard have been triggered following a flurry of visits by senior Chinese military officials to Kathmandu during the last few months.

Senior Chinese military officials and diplomats have been visiting Nepal through the Tibet-Nepal Highway frequently in the recent times, sources said here. Senior officials of the Nepalese army have also visited Chinese military academies for training in the recent past, they said. These developments are seen here as an attempt by China to gain influence in the Nepalese army, which has so far had very close links with India. China appears keen to have a Maoist installed as the chief of the army of its neighbouring country.

Nepal President Pushp Kamal Dahal ‘Prachanda ’, formerly the leader of Maoists, has been wanting to install erstwhile Maoist commander Nanda Kishor Pun alias Passang as the Nepal Army chief. However, strong opposition from mainstream political parties and pro-royal Army officers is preventing such a development, sources said.

[Rudradev]

The first part of your post seems logical but governments generally do not plant themselves inside another to pull strings.

I suppose all the intelligence and counter-intelligence agencies of the world can go back to swatting flies then.

Geopolitics isn't a puppet show, its more like a case of dogs and carrot sticks.

[RamaY]

back to the topic…

Referring S-ji’s posts above, it IS possible to develop a strong civilian as well as defense infrastructure in extreme climatic conditions as well as difficult terrain as demonstrated by western nations as well as china. It is matter of national will and efficient use of technological, financial, and human resources.

The difficult terrain in NE and Northern region is a boon as well as a challenge for Indian national interests. It is necessary to identify the necessary strategies and prerequisites to counter PRC/PAK/US/UK plans in Tibet,POK,NA,Afghanistan belt. India must not only be vocal on its intentions to have these areas under its influence but also put necessary infrastructure, and plans to have a physical presence in these areas. If US/UK can have a physical presence in these areas in the name of national interests and world peace, India too can have a physical presence, PAK/PRC opinion be damned.

The military scenarios that Vivek and Shankar-ji have painstakingly written, show the gaps in India’s defense preparedness to major extent. In almost all scenarios lack of political leadership and decision-delays resulted in immense human, infrastructural, and financial losses to Indian side. In almost all scenarios it is the resilience of our scientific community, and defense establishment that pulled India out of clutches of defeat. Even though these scenarios are hypothetical in nature, they demonstrate the obvious failure of the political leadership and how Indian establishment is perceived internally as well as externally. This has to be changed if we want to protect this nation, irrespective of how we want to define it.

For the peaceniks, India can avoid war and terrorism altogether by being overtly nationalistic, militarily prepared, and have an offensive defense policies (that is destroy the enemy before they attempt stupid adventures to destroy India). It is not a wise strategy to be a weak and meek nation in the name of tolerance and do an existential fight that destroys the enemy completely and our beloved nation significantly.

JMT.

[Keshav]

I suppose all the intelligence and counter-intelligence agencies of the world can go back to swatting flies then.

You know what I mean. Some American businessman is not sitting over Sonia Gandhi's shoulder whispering into her ear that she should do this or that.

Geopolitics isn't a puppet show, its more like a case of dogs and carrot sticks.

[/quote]

Basically, I was saying that its nudging that will do the trick here. That's all you can do at the national level - nudge. Give them hints and suggestions and see if they don't take it. Then there always other options.

[ramana]

back to the topic…

Referring S-ji’s posts above, it IS possible to develop a strong civilian as well as defense infrastructure in extreme climatic conditions as well as difficult terrain as demonstrated by western nations as well as china. It is matter of national will and efficient use of technological, financial, and human resources.

The difficult terrain in NE and Northern region is a boon as well as a challenge for Indian national interests. It is necessary to identify the necessary strategies and prerequisites to counter PRC/PAK/US/UK plans in Tibet,POK,NA,Afghanistan belt. India must not only be vocal on its intentions to have these areas under its influence but also put necessary infrastructure, and plans to have a physical presence in these areas. If US/UK can have a physical presence in these areas in the name of national interests and world peace, India too can have a physical presence, PAK/PRC opinion be damned.

The military scenarios that Vivek and Shankar-ji have painstakingly written, show the gaps in India’s defense preparedness to major extent. In almost all scenarios lack of political leadership and decision-delays resulted in immense human, infrastructural, and financial losses to Indian side. In almost all scenarios it is the resilience of our scientific community, and defense establishment that pulled India out of clutches of defeat. Even though these scenarios are hypothetical in nature, they demonstrate the obvious failure of the political leadership and how Indian establishment is perceived internally as well as externally. This has to be changed if we want to protect this nation, irrespective of how we want to define it.

For the peaceniks, India can avoid war and terrorism altogether by being overtly nationalistic, militarily prepared, and have an offensive defense policies (that is destroy the enemy before they attempt stupid adventures to destroy India). It is not a wise strategy to be a weak and meek nation in the name of tolerance and do an existential fight that destroys the enemy completely and our beloved nation significantly.

JMT.

Good summary. I would like members to post their vision of India of the future. Especially the nationalists and the India centric ones. Lets see the core vision and whats periphery and tradeable.
Thanks, ramana

[surinder]

PRC is providing all the weapons systems to BD, SL, TSP, Nepal. Why is it not providing all the hardware to Mexico?