The Jan Lokpal Bill, Anna Hazare, and Baba Ramdev

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Jun 2011 18:01

rajanb wrote: Another 42 years?
I sincerely wonder that if the Lokpal Bill is tailored to be strict regarding corruption matters whether the opposition parties will be happy and truly co-operate in passing it. There are wheels within wheels here.

Yes indeed, wheels within wheels, this is becoming like a Chakravyuh and it has already taken some people down.Looks like a see-saw battle at the moment,with people on both sides having fun at the expense of the other.Sadly no concurrence has been reached and this can be disturbing enough.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jun 2011 18:17

Sanjeevji,

Fabulous post.

In the Lokpal case, the Opposition parties have told the government they will pronounce themselves only in Parliament.

I am not surprised by it. And have been saying this, (in different words but essentially meaning that corruption cuts across party lines)but got flamed for it.

Q. Would you have a concrete suggestion on the issue of Indian money parked in foreign banks, which most people think is unaccounted money on which tax has been evaded?
A. I have suggested when I was in the Rajya Sabha — some others have also said similar things: Why doesn’t the government try to introduce legislation to take over the accounts of all Indian nationals in Swiss banks?
A custodian can be appointed for such accounts. In effect, nationalise those funds with the specific provision that the custodian will release the money of people who can prove that it was officially remitted from India. The title will then re-vest in them. All this has nothing to do with tax treaties. This is not a tax matter.

He is bang on about it and surprisingly no opposition party (at least I haven't heard of any as yet, have supported this except to say in Parliament that this is not a tax issue).

What we have to worry about is the following:

a) People with black money, locally or overseas, must already be trying to cover their tracks in new innovative ways.

b) The bill should also ask RBI to put in a fiat (if that is the right word), that henceforth Indain citizens cannot open an overseas bank a/c in any bank except Indian Banks where stringent KYC norms will apply. All countries should be informed that it is a legal binding on Indian citizens/companies registered in India and is subject to appropriate action if violated and the said account becomes the property of the Indian Government, if the GOI declares it as a violation in law.

c) All companies doing business in India have to route Forex (inward or outward) through Indian Banks.

The last two should take care of any future attempts and also if a/cs are changed to Indian Banks then those accounts are probably with white money. It will also boost our banking industrt further. And why not?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jun 2011 18:18

Mani Shankar criticizes PM on Ramdev

Congress MP Mani Shankar Aiyar slammed Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Saturday for sending four ministers to meet guru Baba Ramdev to make him end his nationwide stir. While interacting with mediapersons on the sidelines of an event held in Srinagar, Aiyar added he also would not have broken up the anti-graft hunger strike by setting the police on sleeping people. Stressing that the incident had been a violation of human rights enshrined in India's democratic polity, Aiyar maintained the government should not have resorted to such strong measures in curbing dissent.

divisions within party or attacks on MMS to weaken him so that another can take his place.

wonder who ordered
1) to meet BRD in the first place
2) lathi charge peaceful unarmed Indians which is a violation of the democratic rights.

Cannot both be MMS. He is a peaceful person not wanting to hurt people(see his TSP love messages) -- likely he might have sent ministers to meet BRD. Suspect he might not have sent in police. Why this sudden turnaround in a few hours. Looks like knives are out on MMS.
what are his options- lots of responsibility but no power.

1) likley will stay in as PM as he is the person with least political ambitions as of now. will not go for PM third time.
2) if he is removed- other pretenders are more skillful in political manoevrings, have more political ambitions, the junior baba will be in trouble.
3) Junior baba donning the mantle now. Unlikely but not beyond the realm of impossible. The cong will project him as likely new messiah (brushing the corruption under the carpet-

) to rule the nation. people may forget corruption. MMS is a bad man after all.tragic.

chaanakya · Post by **chaanakya** » 12 Jun 2011 18:19

archan wrote:Saw a headline that Shri Laloo ji has said that Ramdev is neither a guru nor a baba. Can someone tell me how educated manneeya Lalu ji is?
"Ae budbak, jara in sahiban ko samjhao ke assli baba kaisan hot hai. Arre oo gaiyyan ka chaara chhod abhi, jara baba ka dephinision to bata"

Well I am no fan of Lalu.
But he is LLB and MA in political Science from Patna University. He was actively involved in Sampooran Kranti of JP movement and fought actively against emergency and became one of the youngest member of Parliament through election following withdrawal of emergency.

He was/is disciple of Sri Karpori Thakur and claims socialist heritage and has served jail terms and seen police atrocities first hand and did not flinch. Lalu's words should not be taken lightly as he might be echoing sentiments of rural people.

It is sad that he became instrumental in destroying Bihar from decades of misrule. It only goes to prove that leaders with public support need not be savior of the country.

BRD is yet to prove his credentials. In one night of show of Police might he started crying and shown his weakness.People who were involved in struggle against emergency would not be impressed by such poor show. In fact those , who remember mandal agitation, would have seen far more brutal repression than what was shown to BRD. This is tip of iceberg. Govt might is far more than BRD can ever imagine.

It can not be won by show of might. It needs to have right tools and proper methods and of course needs to be righteous.

Fasting is something not unknown in this country.

Housewives do fasting and endure pain far more than what BRD would have done in these few days which is , basically, nothing.

CON party might succeed in discrediting him if he ineffectively utilises such tools of public protest.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Jun 2011 18:26

rajanb wrote:Sanjeevji,

Fabulous post.

Thanks go to Fali S NAriman!

rajanb wrote:What we have to worry about is the following:

a) People with black money, locally or overseas, must already be trying to cover their tracks in new innovative ways.

b) The bill should also ask RBI to put in a fiat (if that is the right word), that henceforth Indain citizens cannot open an overseas bank a/c in any bank except Indian Banks where stringent KYC norms will apply. All countries should be informed that it is a legal binding on Indian citizens/companies registered in India and is subject to appropriate action if violated and the said account becomes the property of the Indian Government, if the GOI declares it as a violation in law.

c) All companies doing business in India have to route Forex (inward or outward) through Indian Banks.

The last two should take care of any future attempts and also if a/cs are changed to Indian Banks then those accounts are probably with white money. It will also boost our banking industrt further. And why not?

The big question IF always comes to my mind. If b and c are implemented, wow.India will be having plenty of liquid cash flow.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jun 2011 18:30

Sanjeevji,

I discussed this topic about a decade back with an honest Secratary in the Government. A friend and a mentor. he said that if this happens it will shake the economies of a few countries in Europe.

Conversely, it will STRENGTHEN OURS!

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Jun 2011 18:32

rajanb wrote:Sanjeevji,

I discussed this topic about a decade back with an honest Secratary in the Government. A friend and a mentor. he said that if this happens it will shake the economies of a few countries in Europe.

Conversely, it will STRENGTHEN OURS!

Then this should happen! So be it!

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jun 2011 18:33

So there is going to be no giving up, no retreat from bashing BR as a primary agenda? Where are the great indignant voices - cursing right and left - defending the same voice as being the only substantive one on the thread, the only one raising and focusing on "real" and relevant issues? The one sole voice whose outpourings we have all been instructed to follow reverentially line by line - and who refuses to back down on his sole "substantive" issue of bashing BR? The one voice which was defended and touted as the sole substantive proposer but who himself declared that "ideas" and "intent" were a long way off from a bill - and the "ideas" themselves could be bashed if the sole pontiff of substantiation "felt" the "idea was bunkum"!

So all this clamour for "substantive" debate and proposal was really about establishing the supposed crusade by a small group of elite urbanites - who think of themselves as "civil society" [automatically defining the rest of us as "uncivil" - but oh no, we are reading too much into this - we are always reading too much and we need to withdraw and take a break - whenever these oh-so-innocent abuses are hurled out!] and a bunch of lawyers and activists - who want a cut of power without elections - to have a stick to beat primarily the "babudom" onlee!

Of course no definition of "civil society" has to be given, no reasons to be given as to why there should be more from "judicial/legal" background, and why no proposal for a directly elected "Lokpal" that can equally go against judicial/legislative/executive branches. Oh no - no direct elections - because then the "civil society" cannot get elected. More lawyers and more checks and hemming hawing on going after the judges - because after all the "selected" inquisition is going to be birds of the same feather with the judges.

It is natural for a very very loud protest from this hoping-for-unaccountable-power-through the backdoor coterie and their "supporters" agatating in various forms and trying to mobilize opinion - against BR! AH has been stamped "Gandhian" but BR sports the hated "Hindu" symbols, and popularizes "yoga" the anathema of many Churches - so AH serves the cover images needed and fits in with the possible religio-political agenda behind this move. However BR needs to be continuously bashed!

Thus the oh-so-clean strategy I think is an uncanny parallel of what the INC uses in real-politik. First try and establish a single voice as "the sole legitimate one". Pretend that you are trying to be neutral and want a neutral reasoned debate and discussion without taking any sides - and particularly insist that no "personal attacks" etc, because the criticisms of favoured voices have to be suppressed too. Once everyone tacitly agrees, so that criticism of the "home team" stops, try to divert and confuse by focusing on issues, "substantive details" so that people's energy gets bogged down into tiny details and meanwhile the "home team" can quietly and surreptitiously enhance their own agenda.

Even in those details - ignore those loopholes pointed out by the call for nitpicking but left deliberately to ensure religio-political prefrences getting guranteed in a future body unaccountable to anyone for its actions, with little details spelled out as to procedural formats that makes it clear what prevents arbitrariness on he part of the inquisitors - and seems more in line with Catholic Inquisitions in power and scope [but of course less power over the inquisitors themselves - in this case those oh-so-unbiased and no-political-undercurrent illuminaries from "legal background"].

Then starts the defiant claim from the "sole reasonable substantive" voice that he has the continued right to go on bashing the only religio-politically hated person who is seen to be trying to have a piece of the delicious cake being prepared for the sole enjoyment of a possible replica of the NAC - but this time with much larger powers of coercion.

Well now the issue becomes clear:

(1) BR, which I had tried to warn of, had taken the bait of something that was being planned to give coercive power bypassing the electoral process [as well as shifting overt responsibility for ultimately religio-political agenda away from being ascribed to the party] to have an additional stick of control over the rashtryia machinery

(2) the party and political group in power was becoming unsure of the degree of control they had over the babus, probably the babus had started resisting the religio political agenda

(3) they needed a legally recognized [but not necessarily representing "people power"] but unaccountable to anyone - body which would serve like a Catholic Inquisition and be used indirectly to coerce the "babudom" onlee to submission. In this they knew they would get the help of the inflated super-egos of those try to paint themselves as a cut above the rest of society in cleanliness [perhaps all the more overt holier-than-thou attitude as direct result of awareness of the the muck inside] who are also aware that they themselves cannot get such power through elections.

(4) ironically BR has lent wind to the very religio-political agenda that he should have opposed or at least not been a part of. This is my only critique of BR. It is a personal frustration that this could not be conveyed to him for obvious reasons.

(5) Now the political grouping behind the regime - can further set its own claws into this body, select those who will be vetted and cleared of "all political affiliations" which means they have hidden religious and political affiliations that are manipulable by the regime, and the proposed body will be a religio-political inquisition to primarily target civil servants.

We should always look for who is NOT being criticized and who specifically targeted, who is "left out" more in proposed targeting, and who "less", to identify the religio-political affiliations and hidden agenda. BR but not AH, BJP/RSS but not INC/Left, "civil servants" but no so much the "judges" and "people of legal background", "bypassing electoral process to take a cut of power" bad -bad, but not "selections" from "civil society" and "lawyers".

Do we need to see more? There are no substantive issues as has already long been acknowledged by the high pontiff of "substantiation" - its all about personal sweet pleasure and the right to bash individuals and "ideas" that seem "bunkum" to the pontiff [and of course as unwashed claimants of the sweet Inquisition cake that was being prepared on the sly for the sole pleasure of a "cut above the rest of unclean society" selected coterie].

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jun 2011 18:34

What a muddle in the huddle

Whether fighting the double digit inflation or making a controversial move to throw Baba Ramdev out of Delhi in the middle of the night, it is a small group of people who takes such significant decisions. They may not always show it but they wield enormous clout, set the agenda for the government, implement secretly drawn up plans and take upon themselves the responsibility of accomplishing very unpleasant tasks. They are the government's doers, its think-tank and, more often than not, its fire-fighters.

(If something goes wrong MMS takes the blame, credit always goes to Sonia gandhi/Rahul Gandhi)

The power structure at the top, however, remains unaffected. It retains the curious arrangement which had been worked out between UPA chairperson Sonia Gandhi and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who runs the government but allows the party and its leader a free hand in all political issues.

Rahul Gandhi has been gradually accommodated in this hierarchy as the third power centre. He has not accepted offers to join the government. It may have gone down as an astute political gesture — one that suggests humility and a desire to learn the ropes before accepting a high office. But it is surprising that Rahul does not exert much of an influence on the government's functioning. There are times when his primary interest in UP can prompt the formulation of a particular Bundelkhand policy but, on the whole, Team Rahul Gandhi is not really calling the shots in the Manmohan Singh administration.

(looks like there has been a perception in cong inner circles he is not ready to don the mantle!!still a likely mama's boy)

Pranab Mukherjee, P Chidambaram, A K Antony and Kapil Sibal are not just ministers whose job profile is delineated by assigned portfolios. They swing into action whenever there is a crisis. They draw from their vast experience to suggest the possible way out.Some like Antony may not display the apparent brilliance of a few of his colleagues but he brings to the discussion a shadowy presence of Sonia Gandhi. He is the 10 Janpath factor in the government's decision-making process.

Anand Sharma retains his influence because economic diplomacy is now of immense significance to India. Ghulam Nabi Azad is of great use to the party because of his familiarity with southern politics.

people who have lost their political importance- verrappa Moily,Kamal Nath, SMK(external affairs minster-meaning external to congress inside affairs

).

The list includes the enigmatic Ahmed Patel, the rampaging Digvijay Singh and the soft-spoken close aide of Sonia Gandhi, Janardan Dwivedi. The top bureaucrats headed by the Cabinet Secretary and the others like the Principal Secretary in the PMO or the Home Secretary are considered indispensable in the power set-up. The Director of Intelligence Bureau had to be included not just for the obvious security reasons but also because in politically distressing times, the government needs accurate feedback. The CBI Director and the chief of Enforcement Directorate had to be brought in because their high-profile investigations have a direct bearing on this government's future. There were suggestions that foreign secretary Nirupama Rao, has overshadowed her minister and ought to in the UPA's Team 20 but her name was omitted because others who are shouldering even more important responsibilities had to be included.

Scandals bring out the polity decision making in the open.

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jun 2011 18:44

(4) ironically BR has lent wind to the very religio-political agenda that he should have opposed or at least not been a part of. This is my only critique of BR.

Alas Brihaspatiji. You are bang on. Let us hope that better strategy is employed in the future.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Jun 2011 18:44

brihaspati wrote:So there is going to be no giving up, no retreat from bashing BR as a primary agenda? -----------.

Brihaspati ji,
Indeed I agree with you, this bashing individuals makes no sense if we BRFites want to have a clear mind on the JLB (Jan LOKPAL BILL) issue.It has become a JaLeBi now.Time we forgot that BR or AH ever fasted, and went ahead with the rapidly changing scenario. Pranab is already hinting at delaying things in his latest appearance before the press, and it appears Congress is all set to swallow the JaLeBi.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jun 2011 18:48

Dont you all realize that trying to bring that "black money" -offshore and inshore - into the "white" sections will stop "investments" and flows? Both into the national economy as well as into the "party" economy? This will never happen as long as the country or its regime worships in the temple of pure profits.

Not even the so-called "western" voices condemning "Indian corruption" will do anything or will be able to do anything that really interrupts this international financial flow, which is an important part of laundering capital in "global capitalism".

The loot stashed outside cannot be brought back, even if it belongs to hated political opponent - because at some stage you too may need the same system bypassing the national economy for very "honourable" political purposes - say like winning elections. Do you also think it sits idle all the time in some bank on a sunny island onlee?

rajanb · Post by **rajanb** » 12 Jun 2011 18:49

I dont care who gets the Lok Pal bill, (in the proper form) passed for us. Even if it were the devil.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Jun 2011 18:52

Just occured to me, could BR be wanting to set up a Bank in his own island, and thus striking a deal with Congress on transferring some of the swiss bank money to his bank? Big money spinning game might be happening right under the plume of Jan Lokpal Bill?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jun 2011 18:54

sanjeevpunj wrote:
brihaspati wrote:So there is going to be no giving up, no retreat from bashing BR as a primary agenda? -----------.

Brihaspati ji,
Indeed I agree with you, this bashing individuals makes no sense if we BRFites want to have a clear mind on the JLB (Jan LOKPAL BILL) issue.It has become a JaLeBi now.Time we forgot that BR or AH ever fasted, and went ahead with the rapidly changing scenario. Pranab is already hinting at delaying things in his latest appearance before the press, and it appears Congress is all set to swallow the JaLeBi.

I hope that it is never passed under this regime and sent into cold storage. I don't want to see another geunine popular grievance being used by a small urbanized elite - with possibly very dubious religio-political hidden agenda - for their rise to personal share of the state power. This was how the INC elite and coterie used the genuine grievances and work by countless grassroots activists and workers - not derived necessarily from the INC - to ensure personal power being transferred from the Brits. This was how the Left used the "people" to again bring a small urban, elite faction to state power.

Enough of the hopes and dreams of the common man, yes maybe mostly of "rural origins", to be looked down upon proper city-bred elite ones - used by the urbanite elite factions in their internal dogfight over control of the coercive and profit-milking state machinery.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Jun 2011 18:57

brihaspati wrote: I hope that it is never passed under this regime and sent into cold storage. I don't want to see another geunine popular grievance being used by a small urbanized elite - with possibly very dubious religio-political hidden agenda - for their rise to personal share of the state power. This was how the INC elite and coterie used the genuine grievances and work by countless grassroots activists and workers - not derived necessarily from the INC - to ensure personal power being transferred from the Brits. This was how the Left used the "people" to again bring a small urban, elite faction to state power.
Enough of the hopes and dreams of the common man, yes maybe mostly of "rural origins", to be looked down upon proper city-bred elite ones - used by the urbanite elite factions in their internal dogfight over control of the coercive and profit-milking state machinery.

Right on.The aspirations of the common man have always been used by the rich and high and mighty, for their own gains, really that should never happen.Even if Congress does pass this bill on its own it will be a total farce, and should be run down.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jun 2011 18:57

Congress conspiring, lying to defame me: Anna Hazare to Sonia Gandhi

Upset over Congress leaders calling him a mask of BJP and RSS, Anna Hazare today told Congress chief Sonia Gandhi that party leaders and ministers were "telling lies" to defame him and dared them to make public any evidence to prove it.

A "hurt" Hazare said, "I request you to ensure that responsible leaders from your party should not resort to character assassination and mislead people on the Jan Lokpal Bill.

(derailment of corruption is happening with personal attacks on AH and BRD by congress)

His letter came in the backdrop of Congress general secretary Janardhan Dwivedi(inner coterie in SG) dubbing him as a "mask" of BJP while other leaders attacked the civil society on Lokpal Bill.

Hazare had earlier kicked up a controversy by praising Modi for development works in rural Gujarat.

This looks to be the main reason for congress attacking AH. very sad. anyone praising opposition is a fascist and communal per congress definition.
No wonder congress is non-democratic feudalistic/dynastic party.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jun 2011 19:00

Do you know what popular disillusion with sequential efforts that they supported, and which were used by pretentious small elite groups not to change the system for the better - but to get a share of "profits" - political, economic and otherwise, ultimately lead to? cynicism on the one hand, increased tolerance for corruption, and a violent revolutionary overthrow that often chucks out the baby with the bathwater!

The civil-society-lawyer combine in its merry tango with the INC/regime is actually helping the Jihadi and the Maoist cause. Longer term.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 12 Jun 2011 19:02

SwamyG wrote:Fvck, I got it right....look at what Swapan Dasgupta has written in pioneer. Endgame begins for Manmohan?

I have to pat myself on the back....I got lots of things correct. I also pat others who got it correct Read the entire thingie, you will pat all of us on the back

Could be PC.....

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jun 2011 19:23

OT perhaps, but PC strongly opposed. Some have already poisoned the ear that matters not to risk another PVN.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 12 Jun 2011 19:24

Anna H Vs BR

Hazare may have inspired a large section of the metropolitan population into expressing concern over the culture of corruption, but the burgeoning small towns and villages remained mostly untouched by the Anna phenomenon. That is where Ramdev’s role comes into play, as any fight against corruption can’t succeed without the support of Middle India.

Ironically, those who welcomed Hazare’s call to clean the system are today circumspect about Ramdev. Not very long ago, it was a field day for celebrities — from Aamir Khan to Kabir Bedi — to show their solidarity with the Gandhian movement at Jantar Mantar. On Ramdev, however, the response has been plain disdainful. Salman Khan quipped, “Why is he going on a hunger strike? Isn’t he a yogi teaching yoga?” As for Shah Rukh Khan, he discovered “an agenda” in the Baba’s agitation!

The literati’s love for Hazare is both understandable and enigmatic. It’s understandable because this class detests everything mass-oriented and accepts anything coming from the media. And, Hazare is largely a media construct. If a magazine report is to be believed, about 15 years ago, when Hazare went on a fast to protest against corruption in the then Maharashtra Government, a group of reporters from the vernacular press virtually became his publicity agents. Facts were twisted, and numbers inflated to provide legitimacy to his movement. A week into the fast, when these fellow reporters told Hazare that they couldn’t sustain the movement any longer, the Gandhian wilfully relented to call it off on a Sunday. Here, again, there was a problem: On the proposed day, local elections were to be held in the State, an event that would obviously hog all the limelight. Hazare right away shifted his programme to Monday!

It’s enigmatic because there’s more about Hazare that should disorient the educated, elite class. Going by the way he runs a village in Maharashtra, he cannot be called ‘democratic’ by any means: He prefers the hands of a thief to be chopped off; he wants anyone found drinking to be tied to a pole and publicly flogged; he believes in rigid implementation of family planning, including forced vasectomies; and, he advocates the corrupt be hanged to death!

Maybe Hazare is acceptable because he doesn’t seem to threaten the status quoist upper middle class dreams. He just wants cosmetic changes at the top — bring the Lok Pal Bill and all’s well! It must be understood that while the upper middle class has the right to be disgusted with corruption, it is also a major beneficiary of the malaise. After all, despite it raising this issue, it is primarily this class that gets the maximum benefits from the bribes MNCs pay to politicians to create a hurdle-free economic milieu. Bribes, in a way, are needed for ‘swift’ economic development in the country where governance isn’t truly efficient. It is a way of buying efficiency, as a bureaucrat working in the Finance Ministry said.

Today’s Bihar is the best example of this trend. People in the State complain that with development, bureaucratic corruption has touched new heights. “Pahle jo kaam pachas rupaye mein hota tha, ab 5,000 mein bhi nahin hota (Earlier a work could be done in Rs 50, but today even Rs 5,000 is not enough),” said a schoolteacher in a northeastern district of Bihar. Yet, people seem content as the State has never witnessed such unprecedented flow of money. “Everyone is getting richer here. Lifestyle has improved. So, people doesn’t mind paying bribes to get their work done in the State,” said a Patna-based businessman. Some, including a Patna Women’s College professor, however, believe the Nitish Government should curb this malaise before it actually gets institutionalised.

The upper middle class, therefore, isn’t quite the victim of corruption as it pretends to be. Instead, it is the beneficiary of the system, however corrupt it may be. The real victims are the ones that have been left out or are on the fringes of the emerging economy. The Baba represents this section of Indian society. And, it’s for this reason that his movement needs to be welcomed, and not derided.

What’s further bolstering Ramdev’s case is that unlike other gurus, he is not “foreign-imported”, as one of his ardent followers says. He first strengthened his network in the country, and it was only in 2006 that he made his first trip abroad. No wonder, his worldview is rural-oriented, and he wants technical courses to be taught in the mother language. It’s, therefore, hardly a surprise that his politico-economic ideas became an instant hit among rural Indians, left behind in the race for economic prosperity by the English-speaking elite. What helped him strike a chord was a daily TV show being aired on the Aastha channel since 2005.

http://www.dailypioneer.com/345167/THE- ... ITICS.html

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 12 Jun 2011 19:28

A billion minds are running out of working solutions from their ingenious reactive options. It is time we move to non-reactive options, and permanent solutions.

we can easily count on our fingers who all really support a policy based democracy.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 12 Jun 2011 19:33

krisna wrote:By attacking BRD personality it is easy to derail the thread

Interestingly, I was only responding to someone who also referred to "BRD bashing"...Was only pointing out that "questions" is not = "bashing"...Anyways, dont think the good Baba has come up wit anything new (other than the 10 points) to comment on, so as of now, discussing him is a bit moot...

A thought on the concept of "black money" though..I have said this quite a few times, corruption and black money are different animals, linked in some ways, but not two sides of the same coin...A lot of the "black money" generated is simply business income on which tax has not been paid...(For various reasons, and I encapsulated the main ones)...

The other assumption frequently made is that all black money, or at least most of it, is ferreted away into "swiss banks"...Instinctively, that doesnt sound correct...Reason? To most people, money lying idle in a bank account is "dead" money...Money is perpetually looking for investment opportunities...And guess which has been one of the two hottest investment destinations in the last 15 years? So "black money" generated in India is liekly to be largely re-circulating within India, simply because returns on investment in India are far higher than 1% on a Swiss Bank savings account..

Second, given that "black" money is income that has not been taxed - its quantum will be linked to overall level of income in the economy itself...Ergo, potential for black money creation 5 years down the line will be much higher than what is today, or what it was 5 years back...(GDP today - 1.75 trillion this year, 5 years back - 900 bill, 5 years later: ~5-6 trillion)...

If we accept the "recirculation" axiom as correct, and/or the "generation" axiom correct, the real policy action to be agitating for is tax reforms...Simpler tax laws make for greater compliance, as also better enforcement...there are 2 laws that are virtually ready, but for laziness and cussedness in alternate measures...GST and DTC..The GST law itself is expected to yield a 30-40% increase in indirect tax revenues for the same amount of output - given that nominal GDP increase is 14-15%, that means incrementally 15-16% less black money created, ceteris paribus (this is very rough, but to get an idea)...Additionally, it is expected to boost real GDP growth by 1-2%...I would love it if AH/Arvind K and co, once they are through with Lokpal, make a case for GST as well - its hung only because a couple of state govts are being cussed about it...

Finally, it is amusing to see concern for "elitism" from people who consistently denigrate people who actually win electoral mandates...Seems the red rag is the selection procedure of the Lokpal..I listed down the selection procedures of some of the current "independent" functionaries - is the proposed Lokpal selection system better, or worse? Secondly, we have this new "concern" - such "elistist" instittuions will be hijacked by "islam-pasand, elitists"! I asked in a previous post - through the decades, which RBI guv can be accused of being that? FOr that matter, which CEC? A red herring if ever there was one...

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jun 2011 19:44

^^^^
IndraD very nice article-
some quotes--

One is a Gandhian who can sit cross-legged for hours, and is the darling of the metropolitan literati and chatterati. The other teaches indigenous ways to keep oneself healthy and has an unassailable hold over the masses of what is romantically called ‘Middle India’. The two complement each other. But that’s not the way the political establishment and the mainstream English media see it.

This disconnect was evident on a train from Bihar to Delhi a day after the midnight drama was enacted at Ramlila Maidan. “How can police beat up people, most of them women and children, who have come from faraway places to participate in a satyagraha? They were not at all violent, were they? Imagine their plight in an unknown city in the middle of the night,” said a co-passenger, a Delhi University student whose father worked on a farmland in Bihar. “This Government can allow a Hurriyat hardliner led by a pro-Maoist writer-cum-activist to script a separatist agenda in the Capital, but it can’t endure a peaceful protest against growing corruption in the country,” he added.

Soon, others joined the debate. One was an Army jawan, another a salesman, and yet another a bank employee — all truly representatives of what Mahatma Gandhi called the real India. The number increased, but the sentiment remained more or less the same: That the UPA has acted in a most undemocratic manner to quell the protest; that the Government wouldn’t have dared to come down highhandedly had the protesters been from Delhi’s upper classes, as was the case with Anna Hazare’s agitation at Jantar Mantar not very long ago.

(disconnect between the AH and BRD supporters on one side and GOI which caters to the elites)

While the English news channels — either cut-off from the realities of sub-urban India or owing to their compulsions to cater to their elite and upper middle class audience for whom the Baba and his followers were just another “funny characters” — toed the Government line, focussing on the alleged misdeeds of Ramdev and his colleagues. It seemed they blindly followed Congress leader Digvijay Singh’s Baba’s-a-thug line. In the process, they forgot to ask a few tough questions: How could the Government suddenly stumble upon so much evidence against the yoga guru? Does it mean that it keeps such evidences as an arm-twisting tool against its opponents for more opportune times? If so, doesn’t it implicate the Government for being hypocritical on the issue of corruption? If the UPA was so sure about the Baba’s ill practices, why did it dispatch four ministers to receive him at the Delhi airport? And, if it was so uneasy about his saffron links, why did it entertain him for hours at a five-star hotel in Delhi?

The Hindi news channels, in contrast, showcased a slightly more realistic picture of how the country was reacting to the Government’s midnight crackdown at Ramlila Maidan. Perhaps, because their TRPs are determined by the masses in small towns and villages!

Ramdev is as much the product of skewed globalisation as he is of the failure of our political leadership to deliver.

Had Suresh Kalmadi been forced to resign when the Commonwealth shames first surfaced, the scandal would have died a natural death! Had A Raja been removed from his office the moment bad press appeared against him, the 2G scandal would have lost much of its sting! Nothing of the sort happened, hence the full-throated demand for a ‘systemic change’. Hence the emergence of a Baba and a Gandhian!

(IOW it is the failure of congress regime to curb corruption which gave rise to Anna and Ramdev to protest- not the other way round)

The powers-that-be must understand that Ramdev and Hazare are two sides of the same coin. Inventing cases of corruption against those who are asking tough questions would make people cynical and force them to take recourse to more extreme measures.

Hazare and Ramdev are for the good of the Government: They are its safety valve.

as elections being 3 years away- lucky for congress. The only feature which can dampen them is losses in state elections in the next few months- year.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 12 Jun 2011 19:45

sanjeevpunj wrote:Even if Congress does pass this bill on its own it will be a total farce, and should be run down

Which bill?The current draft of the Lokpal Bill? Why would it be a "farce"?

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jun 2011 19:58

somnath wrote:
krisna wrote:By attacking BRD personality it is easy to derail the thread
Interestingly, I was only responding to someone who also referred to "BRD bashing"...Was only pointing out that "questions" is not = "bashing"...Anyways, dont think the good Baba has come up wit anything new (other than the 10 points) to comment on, so as of now, discussing him is a bit moot...

Again 90% of this post is something I dont understand. I am just a common Indian knowing english language.

About BR, not sure why questioning him is a sacrilege for some people...To a lot of people, including me, he is a political animal (the reasons have been articluated many times here, its a POV based on certain facts, but one held by many)...Nothing wrong in that, but there is every right that sceptical citizens have to question his motives as well as the "10 point proposals" on which he went on fast...Thats all...Doesnt mean every BR sceptic is a "mainowadi"...

I responded to your post of "questioning BRD" which derails the issue of corruption and means to curb it. GOI action is important as they are running the country now.

If I am not making any sense to you, henceforth I will try to avoid some part of your posts if I find it is not going to help the thread. It is my personal opinion.
I do know you have something to contribute and I look forward to those. Rest is maya onlee.
Thanks.

munna · Post by **munna** » 12 Jun 2011 20:04

Reality Check

RJD chief Lalu Prasad is known for throwing surprises at his opponents, but this time he has even stumped his friend and counterpart in the Samajwadi Party, Mulayam Singh Yadav. The SP supremo, who came out in support of Ramdev after police action against him, was taken aback by Lalu’s attack on Ramdev last Sunday. He could not understand why Lalu was swimming against the tide. “When 95 per cent of Yadavs are supporting Ramdev, why is Lalu not supporting Ramdev?” he wondered.

Laugh as much as you want on a yogi and believe as much in the almighty state. But eyes that have seen the fall of almighty IG or INC drubbing post Bofors refuse to be taken in by the bluster emanating from government. Weakness of BJP or current arithmetic of LS is a brittle support to lean on, I rest my case.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jun 2011 20:21

Stop turning India into a circus

waste of reading this article by tavleen singh.
seems to have lost the plot. wonder why? too much mingling with delhi chai biskoot samosa sessions.

kamments are better to read.

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Jun 2011 20:32

somnath wrote:
sanjeevpunj wrote:Even if Congress does pass this bill on its own it will be a total farce, and should be run down
Which bill?The current draft of the Lokpal Bill? Why would it be a "farce"?

They will simply cut it,twist it,turn it upside down and pass it,safeguarding the existing corrupt ministers.That's why it will be a farce.

krisna · Post by **krisna** » 12 Jun 2011 21:13

India: A fertile ground for fraud and scams?

I was not surprised when at the Regional Passport office I had to grease the palm of a tout to expedite issue of a new pamphlet. When asked, the tout tersely asked: Sir, are you from the Mars? This is India. The Mother of corruption rules the country. The riddle was complicated. To my pleasant surprise he rattled out that Janpath to Rajpath, Ballimaran to Bhindi bazaar everyone is required to be pleased with graft money. How can you get the black money back from abroad? The Mother of corruption has stashed away billions herself.
It was a great moment of education. I retreated as a wiser person.

Anna Hazare and his Civil Society colleagues have inched forward despite planned mud-throwing on certain members of his team. The skull-digging process by the leaders of the Indian National Corruption Party (INCP) continues unabated.

Funnily, some INCP leaders, particularly a doormat from Madhya Pradesh have discovered RSS coloration in Anna Hazare as well.

Ramdev may or may not has political ambition. But political speculators surmised that he was initially propped up by the INCP to devalue Anna Hazare. Four ministers of the government were deputed to the airport to receive and confabulate with him. Later he was invited to a five star hotel for consultations. In the meantime huge numbers of Ramdev followers congregated at the Ramlila ground for peaceful stayagrah (a weapon devised by Congress leader Gandhi). Things were moving well as long as Ramdev agreed to walk with the INCP agenda. The moment he opposed certain provisions of the dialogue process suddenly discovered that Ramdev was propped by the RSS, BJP, Bajrang Dal, VHP etc Hindu communal organizations. I am sure that my former colleagues in the intelligence fraternity had not filed any such report with the government, which indicated that Ramdev was being used by the opposition for destabilizing the government.

In a democracy different people have right to launch differ agitations in peaceful manner. Agitation against any government is a constitutional right. The barbaric act of Delhi police on June 4th night indicated the mind frame of the panicky rulers.

The INCP doormat from MP blurted out and called names and his vituperations were aimed at defaming the yoga guru. He even termed the shoe-thrower at Janardan Dwivedi as a RSS activist. The RSS has denied and served a legal notice on the INCP leader. He even hinted that government agencies would probe into his personal affairs and his business interests.

All Her Master’s Voice shouted in chorus that the war was between corruption and communalism. The Hindu forces were about to stage a political coup and overthrow the fragile government.

The chain of events is not yet over. Ramdev’s continued fast is a matter of serious concern. Instead of weighing the gravity of the situation some doormats of Janpath have broadly hinted that government agencies would be unleashed to haunt the Yoga guru and finally they would prove that the Baba is a thug (cheat). The Yoga Guru lacked in political experience and orderly conduct of a mass movement. Even a Gandhi had several times failed to maintain his satyagrah, civil disobedience movement violence free. The British persecuted him. They are attempting to repeat the same in cases of Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev. It is hoped that the people would remember these doormats and politically demolish them.

Soon after independence we heard Jawaharlal scathingly attacked the corrupt people and the illegal market manipulators. He was brave enough to announce that he would hang the corrupt people by the next lamppost. Unfortunately for us Jawaharlal, till his demise could not discover a single lamppost to hang the corrupt people; though thousands of new lampposts were erected in the capital city itself

Unfortunately, whenever big scandals are unfolded and war against corruption is intensified the Indian National Corruption Party cries foul and discover communalist RSS and BJP conspiracy to destroy the secular edifice of the country

( very sad that the elites also believe this- indoctrination )

Therefore, it is a clever guile when the INCP blames the Hindutwa institutions for all communal activities. It is a diversionary tactics used by the INCP to befool the people. The same guile is being used against the movements of Anna Hazare and Baba Ramdev to divert attention of the people from the core issues of corruption and black money. As long as the INCP clings on to power and its cronies lend support there is little hope for uprooting of corruption. Unfortunately, the other major political forces in the nation have also been able to sketch a fair account for themselves. Indian political practices and administrative dispensation have strengthened the roots of corruption.

Are we doomed to live with this curse?

Long article with a list of numerous scams and some info regarding communal fights, how the congress is taking over from british likewise to its advantage.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 12 Jun 2011 21:33

couldn't help posting this, such a true pic- MMS fades like a spineless while being on front, Sonia loots the country with a sheepish smile.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 12 Jun 2011 21:37

The current draft is a farce anyway! Clever avoidance and impracticable or unmentioned/clrified criteria of selection! "civil society" left undefined, why more "legal luminaries" at the cost of "civil servants" left unexplained, how do we assume that such legal background people are free of "political" and other ideological biases not explained, only "political" biases even referred to but not other forms of bias - say religious - mentioned, what are the criteria of selecting/dropping people based on past behaviour criteria left undefined to the point of vagueness, procedural details especially about prevention of arbitrariness left out. It is almost as if these "selected" are going to be a special super-human or super god [even gods have their foibles] variety - needing no supervision or provision for redressal against their shenanigans if any - and made complete unaccountable.

If this is not a farce what is?

By the way, will the "Lokpal" have retroactive ambit? In particular can it reopen the "Bofors" case please? Can it look at "lapses" if any from investigative officers themselves by its own "draft" provisions?

sanjeevpunj · Post by **sanjeevpunj** » 12 Jun 2011 21:45

It should cover the backlog of scams, Bofors included.

KLNMurthy · Post by **KLNMurthy** » 12 Jun 2011 22:46

somnath wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:Your approach, and the lok pal approach, are all about creating yet another bit of machinery in the same mold as today's, which is the mold that has caused the problem in the first place. Either the mold is fine in which case the problem is bogus, or there is need for a new mold. In your approach, and that of the lok pal people, I don't see any ability to address the problem rationally, at the right level of abstraction, identifying causes, means, effects, and costs
Well not really...The biggest gain from the Lokpal initiative is from the essence of "independence" of the investigative apparatus from the executive...One good example is of the CBI...It is often maligned as the ruling party's handmaiden, sometimes correctly..At the same time, CBI has about a million times better resources to tackle corruption crimes than any police force in the country, which is why everyone (incl opposition parties) demand a CBI enquiry at the drop of every corruption hat...If the CBI is taken in under the formal tutelage of the Lokpal, suddenly the issue of "executive interference" becomes much lesser...It becomes, optically, as well as materially, "independent"...

A bit like the EC...Conducting elections is largely an administrative job...And it ws treated likewise for many decades...It was only when Seshan used a pretty obscure provision of the law to assert "independence" that the institution became what it is - a global exemplar..EC is also a perfect case of how the institution is important, not the individual..Note above how the ECs are appointed, and the appointment is only from a limited pool of ex-bureaucrats - so a distinct patron-clinet relationship in place...Further, during elections, EC simply gets officials deputed from the bureaucracy...And note how the same officials who kowtow before every mohalla politico become a terror to the seniormost leader come election time..

Lokpal isnt a panacea..But it can develop into something like the EC in the anti-corruption fight...The larger problem of course needs comprehensive reforms, which I have touched upon earlier..

It is very strange that you seek to refute my point that Lok Pal is old wine in new bottles, by, in fact, listing all the ways in which the Lok Pal would be like existing institutions!

In principle, by your logic, there is no need for a lok pal designed on the lines of the CBI, CVC, EC, judiciary, etc. if those institutions are seen to do their job satisfactorily. The Lok Pal is intended to be a super-institutional ombudsman that deals with complaints against (nearly) all administrative offices including the investigative offices. Replicating the structure of the same institutions which have generated the need for a lok pal in the first place, makes no sense.

It is also a problem because it vests a lot of power in a group of appointed officials with no clear expertise in any productive domain of endeavor (other than perhaps law) beyond being vaguely certified as "unimpeachable" and "showing a commitment to fight corruption." The power they wield is over the economic activity of the citizens of the country. If (as is in fact the case with the present bunch of civil society mavens) these people carry the presumption that any productive economic activity is suspect and potentially criminal, then we will be back to license-permit raj and crony capitalism operating within safe boundaries with no innovation. The fact of corruption in 2G shouldn't stampede us into installing a powerful institution that has no safeguards against its members' propensity to view all innovative business activity as corrupt and anti-people. We have a tendency to do this--the Bofors scandal led to infinite delays in acquiring the advanced jet trainers, for example.

Comparisons with EC or RBI are inapt--these institutions are there to perform specific tasks: EC is there to conduct elections, and as a side-effect to adjudicate up to a point malpractice; similarly RBI is there to facilitate commerce, and as a side-effect to curb malpractice. The Lok Pal is there solely to curb malpractice.

it replicates, without clear benefit in terms of effectiveness, accessibility and so on, the structure, organization and mandate of already existing judicial and investigative bodies, and it has great potential for making matters far worse than they are now.

Investigative offices in any government are an inherently intractable problem--they have to be part of the government machinery while remaining independent of it. CBI, CVC, all of the judiciary, and in the US, the attorney-general's office all try to square the circle in some way by building in some combination of constitutional firewall, administrative convention, and penalties for abuse. The designers of the Lok Pal and its proponents haven't shown at all that they understand the nature of the problem, the variables involved, and how to go about designing and evaluating a solution. I'm not trying to be nasty but on this and other forums and the media, I see a lot of verbosity and elegantly-constructed sentences (not always adding up to elegant or lucid prose), sometimes combined with an overemphasis on irrelevant resumes, doing duty for actual problem-solving skill, and understanding the ways of controlling and wielding organizational power for some intended purpose.

One overarching goal of the exercise is to generate public confidence that, if someone undertakes a business venture and acts according to reasonable ethical guidelines, they won't be undercut by people who are not bound by those ethics. I don't see any signs that the Lok Pal proponents really understand this. I see them replicating existing discredited institutions to gain power for their social cohorts by exploiting public outrage at the lack of ethics in government and business.

It won't do, if the purpose is to improve things in a tangible and measurable way.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 12 Jun 2011 23:06

A Swiss window to black money the UPA won't look into

Ashok Dasgupta

New Delhi: The UPA government may have gone into overdrive on the black money issue but it has so far failed to use a Swiss tax provision that will allow India to not just estimate how much money its citizens have illegally stashed away in bank accounts in Switzerland but to also earn revenue from them.

The Swiss authorities are unwilling to make these secret accounts public and will only provide foreign governments with details if they can prove an individual account is linked to illegal activity back home. This is an impossibility, since nothing is known about those accounts to begin with. However, Switzerland is prepared to share with foreign governments a portion of the tax levied on the interest that these foreign account holders earn, thereby opening a small window onto a hitherto hidden room.

http://www.hindu.com/2011/06/04/stories ... 131400.htm

Why is UPA not disclosing names of blackmoney holders?:
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 22315.html

Black money would be enough to feed 60 crore people: Somaiya
http://ibnlive.in.com/generalnewsfeed/n ... 16149.html

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 12 Jun 2011 23:17

After showing some signs of improvement on Wednesday, Gurgaon resident Raj Bala (50) remained critical all day on Thursday. She was hurt in the police action on Ramdev followers at the Ramlila grounds on Saturday night. "We almost lost her today. There was no heartbeat in the afternoon. Her nervous system was failing but the team of doctors revived her and managed to keep her alive," said Rakesh Malik, her daughter-in-law.

http://www.hindustantimes.com/At-GB-Pan ... 07703.aspx

Meanwhile, five days after Rajbala was admitted to GB Pant Hospital, doctors said her condition had deteriorated at around 1 am on Friday with fluctuations in blood pressure and heart rate that had to be controlled by medicines. The evening bulletin however said that ‘no major fluctuations’ had been noted during the day. The medical bulletin added that her vital parameters were being maintained ‘with increased pharmacological support.’ Rajbala, has been on ventilator support since Sunday evening. Doctors however said her condition had dipped from ‘being critical, to very critical.’

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Rajba ... rt/802140/

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 12 Jun 2011 23:21

We should always look for who is NOT being criticized and who specifically targeted, who is "left out" more in proposed targeting, and who "less", to identify the religio-political affiliations and hidden agenda. BR but not AH, BJP/RSS but not INC/Left, "civil servants" but no so much the "judges" and "people of legal background", "bypassing electoral process to take a cut of power" bad -bad, but not "selections" from "civil society" and "lawyers".

Do we need to see more? There are no substantive issues as has already long been acknowledged by the high pontiff of "substantiation" - its all about personal sweet pleasure and the right to bash individuals and "ideas" that seem "bunkum" to the pontiff [and of course as unwashed claimants of the sweet Inquisition cake that was being prepared on the sly for the sole pleasure of a "cut above the rest of unclean society" selected coterie].

Brihaspati Ji with all due respect, your entire post is quite substantive on slants, angles, hidden agenda's at fellow posters with a different POV. All that is it necessary? Why can't you make your point without seeking hidden agenda's and stuff.

I am getting confused on what exactly you are crusading for: Against corruption, against people here with a certain POV, hidden agenda of posters here, criticizing people here who criticize public figures like BR or AH.

Why don't you simply question the POV than the person behind it? Please do tell if it wrong to criticize AH or BR here too? If not political persons they certainly are public figures. Or shall we stop criticizing Suzanne Roy, Pankaj Misra and likes. They are'nt after all political persons are they? Or if tomorrow Imam Bukhari gathers 50k people and demands end to corruption and public floggings and amputations for corrupt individuals will it be an agenda if we criticize IB too?

All i can see here by attacks on posters that criticize BR or his 10 point agenda or AH, open and transparent debate is being stiffled to some extent. IMHO all public figures irrespective of affiliation are liable for criticism. Personal attacks on posters and exposing some 'hidden' agenda is not really par for the coarse. No?

So there is going to be no giving up, no retreat from bashing BR as a primary agenda? Where are the great indignant voices - cursing right and left - defending the same voice as being the only substantive one on the thread, the only one raising and focusing on "real" and relevant issues? The one sole voice whose outpourings we have all been instructed to follow reverentially line by line - and who refuses to back down on his sole "substantive" issue of bashing BR? The one voice which was defended and touted as the sole substantive proposer but who himself declared that "ideas" and "intent" were a long way off from a bill - and the "ideas" themselves could be bashed if the sole pontiff of substantiation "felt" the "idea was bunkum"!

So all this clamour for "substantive" debate and proposal was really about establishing the supposed crusade by a small group of elite urbanites - who think of themselves as "civil society" [automatically defining the rest of us as "uncivil" - but oh no, we are reading too much into this

PS: Frankly i do like and have many times appreciated many of your posts, but here you're reading too much. But you must also give that if you have something substantive to contribute, so too others have a right to bring in their POV. Fair only no sir?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 00:06

harbans ji,
I had assumed -my bad - that you had agreed to my suggestion that we do not respond to each other's posts. But the point was, it was your point that the debate should turn around from personal vilification or discussing personalities like BR/AH that had gone on for "pages" and go towards concrete proposals/drafts. We start discussing drafts, and suddenly - bingo! back comes "questioning" motivations/intent only of BR and the whole gamut!

Do you want the the debate to turn back towards those individual bashing again? You found the "question" of BR's supposed statements about homosexuality being discussed in post after post - as "substantive" part of the drafting business and valid "innocent "questions" relevant for Lokpal "bill"?

We were asked to look into concrete "proposals" - and I have raised "questions" then, haven't I - based on what appears in the "draft"? The thing about "selections" from and undefined "civil society", vagueness supreme and completely impracticable qualifications like "unimpeachable integrity" etc, insistence on greater representation from "legal background" in the membership while restricting "civil servants", a very long hesitation literally about bringing in judges under the scanner, and sundry other issues of complete immunity? On the basis of that if I find a common thread of "motivations and intent" that is suspiciously close to seeking "power over the babus onlee" from the judicial fraternity and "selected" self-defined or regime defined "civil society" which has supreme immunity from accountability - you have a problem with that, while you had no such problem with raising the supposedly relevant issue of BR's comments on "homosexuality"?

Remember, that the claim was that supposed "ideas" behind proposals could be fair game for "questioning", "intent/motivations" could be inferred from proposals and statements, and then ridiculed and "slants" appeared to be alright! But it seems you are saying they are okay onlee if carried out by a certain poster and against one personality involved in the current overt movements - onlee.

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 13 Jun 2011 00:16

Again 90% of this post is something I dont understand. I am just a common Indian knowing english language.

Krsna Ji, lets not get into who is more common, more pious an Indian. Let me explain it in a simple manner.

1) There are plently of issues on even defining 'corruption'. Change a law or tweak it here something corrupt becomes legal in a minute. Take prohibition for example. What you can do legally in Mumbai, you cannot in Gujarat. What you can do legally in India, you'll get beheaded in Saudi. Bringing gold into India 30 years ago could get you jailed, today no one gets jailed for it post reforms. 30 Years ago taking more than 10 Pounds of forex outside could get you jailed under FERA. Today you can go to a bank change a few thousand Dollars without the banker lifting an eyebrow. So what was corrupt 30 years ago is not today. So 'corruption' is from a major POV a legal issue too.

Conclusion: So if someone is against 'corruption' and demanding legal changes from GOI, it does little to just stand behind him without understanding what legal changes he or she is demanding. If they are demanding flogging or jail for taking out more than 500 Dollars, i am against that. Therefore it's important to ask what sort of legal changes are being sought. What is the background of the public figure. These are not above the purview then. I have tried to explain this simply. I trust you will understand this.

2) If the above was about tweaking legal issues and changing what 'corrupt' means. A similar framework applies to for economic issues too. Tax reform for example. 30 years ago a wealth tax of 90 plus percent encouraged people to evade tax and move money to offshore havens out of GOI scrutiny. In fact tax havens came into existence simply because of ridiculous economic laws like that existed in countries like ours. So after liberalization when we improved some of lour tax laws, it became unnecessary for people to evade taxes and so the direct tax collection has kept on increasing till today. So better tax laws== lesser money outflow to taxx havens. That is the angle that Somnath Ji was trying to say.

Conclusion: Some reforms are urgently needed in our tax structures too.

It thus becomes important also in that context to question the credentials or at the bare minimum the public figures that take the name of removing corruption on what they seek really. That does involve the agenda's of their institutions/ villages they run/ their view on defining corruption and going about it. So being critical or BR or AH is not outside the scope of discussing corruption. The thread title too has reflects that of late.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 13 Jun 2011 00:21

As for "individual" bashing, I have not seen much questioning on this thread about AH's motivations, or the motivation of other members of this campaign. If only BR is selectively targeted, is it that unnatural to suspect motivations? I have not personally in any post supported BR, or discussed his character etc. Neither did I do so for AH or other names that keep propping up as stalwarts of the "campaign". But it went on and on, and only when attention was brought on to this one-sided campaign it seems suddenly there was a problem. Suddenly attacking "POV"s were bad - although this was exactly what was being done before, dissing the POV of BR, or anyone who sympathized or seemed to be inclined positively towards BR.

BR was being bashed for his supposed "blackmailing of the elected government" and "a political animal" [something not seen from the same side being attributed to other campaigners], "trying to get political power without going through elections" and "extra-constitutional" methods of agitation. Fine. When I raised the corresponding relevant issue of the extra-constitutional methodology of the "fatwaists" which the gov or INC does not seem to mind at all - in fact rewards with meeting up the demands - my pointer became an "inanity".

So it seems nothing will be relevant unless it fits the current political requisites of the ruling regime, and noting such a remarkable convergence of interests between those who selectively target BR onlee and the INC position or attitudes as an indicator worthy of suspicion - becomes unfair "slant" while the slant on "cross-dressing/homosexualims" on BR was appropriate - a part of the "substantive" debate on the Lokpal bill? Goodness!