The Bharatiya - Identity, Vision, Agenda, Proposition

[RajeshA]

ravi_g ji,

some very good points:

If one tries to put them down in the form of principles, then ...

1. Samaj has an ideal format for conjugal bliss - marriage. Marriage is a consensual decision by a man and a woman to come together, procreate together, and nurture their children to be wholesome individuals and successful members of society. The "economy of esteem" revolves around this institution. This institution is so important that the Rashtra itself supports this institution through various financial and other incentives.
2. Each individual above a generally accepted age for maturity has a legal right to have sexual relationships even outside marriage as long as he/she takes abides by the obligations of the relationship. These obligations are set down by the other partner. Some are considered as implicit -
   1. only consensual sex,
   2. no physical hurt to the other,
   3. truth about one's health which can have a negative effect on the other, (some infection, STD, HIV+, AIDS,...)
   4. truth about one's current obligations to other partners,
   5. willingness for effective contraception
   6. willingness to accept the responsibility for any consequences (e.g. pregnancy).
   Of course the other partner can suspend these obligations, but only explicitly. Also alcohol and other drug consumption would not be accepted as an excuse for non-compliance. Failure to abide by these obligations can have legal consequences.
3. Underage, extra-marital and non-monogamous Sex would not receive any overt approval from society, even though it is legal. That means those who indulge in the above would be at the receiving end of "economy of esteem".
4. Those who indulge in sexual relationship nonconforming with marriage or one which could lead to marriage, do not have the right for exhibitionism of this relationship, as that would give the impression of social sanction to it which goes against the rules of "economy of esteem". Such an impression can be hurtful to young impressionable minds. This means there can be no public partying with a sexual component from which one could gather that those indulging in sexual promiscuity are not married nor intend to marry; this means there can be no private sex parties, about which any videos or otherwise accounts seep out into the public; this means there can be no gay parades, or otherwise any public exhibition of gay relationship, etc. Public spaces belong to society. There are however no legal barriers to sex in private in whatever form one wants, as long as abides by the obligations stated above. If however there is exhibitionism going on, then society can intervene and prohibit it. However society cannot violate the privacy of others. Media is banned from eulogizing or focusing on such non-conforming relationships.
5. Incestual relationships would not get the approval of society, and the more "powerful" of the partners can be punished by the state. Psychological tests can be mandated to test if there was psychological coercion. What is incest would be defined on the basis of tradition.
6. Personal nudity, which is exposure of genital and mammary regions, would be decided by society and context. In places it may be allowed whereas elsewhere it may not be allowed. No hard and fast general rules to that. Other than this, the person has full liberty to choose his clothes in public spaces. However in controlled spaces, e.g. at workplace, the management can decide on the clothing etiquette. However even here nobody can deny the visitor the individual right to show his face, indeed complete head and hands unless it is demanded for reasons of hygiene, safety and quality control.. Places of religion can place further constraints. In public spaces however nobody should be able to demand some clothing etiquette or propriety from the other beyond that for covering of genital and mammary regions. Safety of the individual should be guaranteed regardless of one's clothes.
7. Rules of Society become active only when society can make a convincing case that individual liberties would do harm to its most revered institutions - marriage, orderly procreation, prohibition on incest, etc.

[Agnimitra]

Sorry RajeshA ji, I just saw this:

Vande Mataram

Carl

That's true, the objections are mostly just nakhras. Can't sing Vande Mataram because Islam supposedly forbids one to treat a land in an anthropomorphic way. But just read any poem about Hajj, and the plateau of Arafat is treated like God itself.

can we have those poems posted here with translations, which treat some piece of land either anthropomorphically or as God itself, just in case it is not too much work.

Also anthropomorphism itself is not really all that uncommon. Panchatantra was quite popular in Arab lands, and one has non-human beings and objects being able to think and speak.

Besides to capture the spirit of Vande Mataram, one needs to treat the country like the mother. True that is anthropomorphization, but it is not to God, it is to human being - the mother. As such this anthropomorphization should not portend any trouble. It cannot be considered Shirk.

Yes, treating the country as 'mother' cannot be shirk, even by most Islamic standards. After all, in Farsi (and Urdu) it was quite common to refer to the motherland as "madre vatan".

I don't have a Hajj poem treating Arabia as holy in an anthropomorphic way right now. I used to watch the Urdu ones on PTV during Hajj time. Available every Hajj season. Basically the themes are repetitive in different Middle Eastern languages and Urdu:

1. The plateau of Arafat is greeted with exhileration.
2. Medina is so holy that the fragrance of Paradise is discernible there.
3. Mina and Muzdalifa are treated anthropomorphically - whether as Angel or Satan.

In fact, the Hajj treats the Black Stone in the Ka'aba as an idol, and the Jamaraat at Mina as Satan.

Poet saints, Sufis and others have anthropomorphized Arabia and the Ka'aba. The Ka'aba comes out to welcome them, the hills speak to them, etc.

Most importantly, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself used to have long conversations with one of the stones near the Ka'aba as well the black stone in the Ka'aba. After the hijrat to Medina, he tearfully told people he missed that stone.

Even today, youtube videos circulate excitedly showing a winged angel descending on the Ka'aba and making sajdah (prostration) on the Night of Power (laylat-ul-Qadr) while devotees do tawaaf. This is considered miraculous by thousands of the devout.

[member_20317]

RajeshA ji,

the Esteem factor you talk about is something that can only be taken up voluntarily at an individual level. At that point I am with you. But for the society as a whole it cannot be enforced or even started with the GoI around. Perhaps with RSS type organization, yes. But in all cases the training will have to be mainly like that by RSS. High on Kar-seva, low on militia training. As I see it, without a strict and a graduated menacing defense of the important SD ideas this esteem factor has no real support. One of the reason why old people get treated badly in India is because the so called educated class is also a nucleated class with a Kiraayedaar mentality. A large number of yuppies have moved straight from their colleges to pubs and apartment buildings. They used the safety of the society and families around till the time it suited them but the moment they found freedom like a faccha they raised their aspiration levels to libertine levels. Gave up voting, started making excuses, made things difficult for their own parents, next step for these would be to start believing in some bunkum peddled from the safety of foreign lands via MSM, sponsored Moralists and agony aunts/uncles and some phoren returned neta ki aulad.

Against such a background how do you suppose an older order will be held in esteem. You cannot really preach respect for the elders into someone. Esp. for things, people are progressively exhorted to develop a hate/irreverence for. I would say Saam will not work for the urban Indian milieu and in rural areas you have strong management challenges. Unfortunately Daan will also not work because the urban India also happens to be well endowed.

Danda and Bheda are the ones that require a low level of investment to develop. Just a danda in hand and a group of well informed hard core supporters willing to take on the toxic pus of MSM/Yuppiehood/Netagan/Boodhijeevi. A kind of cooperative effort between the urban rooted class and the rural rooted class. But usage of Danda and Bheda very much require a higher standard of conduct from the wielder of these methods. It was in this light that I advocated a Service first attitude. The desire for 'officer like qualities' that wish to see inculcated first carries a very real risk of giving us a new breed of brats, and that too better trained brats. To develop a man all through the IA puts in long hours and hard money. A lot of military training is about holding the fire and discipline of holding the line and firing exactly 3 rounds. You will never get the type of trainers wanted for that kind training for the kind of population that we have. Even if you dilute your standards to that of a non-officer levels of IA recruit, you need to provide for the right type of training. A sentry duty or gardening duty is of no use or the arthely duty. But simpler matters like a physical training satsang, kaar seva and physical labour are manageable things from all perspective.

[habal]

Yes, treating the country as 'mother' cannot be shirk, even by most Islamic standards. After all, in Farsi (and Urdu) it was quite common to refer to the motherland as "madre vatan".

I don't have a Hajj poem treating Arabia as holy in an anthropomorphic way right now. I used to watch the Urdu ones on PTV during Hajj time. Available every Hajj season. Basically the themes are repetitive in different Middle Eastern languages and Urdu:

1. The plateau of Arafat is greeted with exhileration.
2. Medina is so holy that the fragrance of Paradise is discernible there.
3. Mina and Muzdalifa are treated anthropomorphically - whether as Angel or Satan.

In fact, the Hajj treats the Black Stone in the Ka'aba as an idol, and the Jamaraat at Mina as Satan.

Poet saints, Sufis and others have anthropomorphized Arabia and the Ka'aba. The Ka'aba comes out to welcome them, the hills speak to them, etc.

Most importantly, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself used to have long conversations with one of the stones near the Ka'aba as well the black stone in the Ka'aba. After the hijrat to Medina, he tearfully told people he missed that stone.

Even today, youtube videos circulate excitedly showing a winged angel descending on the Ka'aba and making sajdah (prostration) on the Night of Power (laylat-ul-Qadr) while devotees do tawaaf. This is considered miraculous by thousands of the devout.

All abrahamics are duty & honor bound to treat their nation as mother. i.e until they enter the victimhood complex. Then things may differ. And that too only if external factors can fuel it. It though, need not always differ.

the congrezis are very worldly-wise folks in this regard and recognize this aspect well, and thus constantly assuage and massage to rub away any sense of victimhood which can arise. This is a peculiar philosophy which is till now understood by kangrezis only. But as any virtue in kalyug, this is also much manipulated. But the way the Kangrezis do it, is the best way. Some characters go overboard in this, but that is their own call, usually the party has internal dynamics that can handle such issues well.

I say this as a feel of ground-level, you need to involve the muslims, keep them in good humor, assuage any feeling of hurt (aka pseudo-secularism therapy) but rule them with an iron fist, and the fact is that only India can do this, only India can pull this off. Baathist socialist countries like Iraq, and Syria tried but failed because they lack the depth. And they got excessively heavy with the iron hand ignored the assuaging part totally, this is how staid regimes lose the plot. The only difference was that in Syria & Iraq, a minority (Alawi & Sunni resp) thought that using the iron hand will solve all issues. As one country, citizens will just follow the script from thereon. It didn't exactly work, did it. Ideally it should, but they couldn't manage the foreign hand.

[RajeshA]

RajeshA ji,

the Esteem factor you talk about is something that can only be taken up voluntarily at an individual level. At that point I am with you.

ravi_g ji,

The "economy of esteem" is a phrase introduced by brihaspati garu. I found this a relevant construct.

But for the society as a whole it cannot be enforced or even started with the GoI around. Perhaps with RSS type organization, yes. But in all cases the training will have to be mainly like that by RSS. High on Kar-seva, low on militia training. As I see it, without a strict and a graduated menacing defense of the important SD ideas this esteem factor has no real support. One of the reason why old people get treated badly in India is because the so called educated class is also a nucleated class with a Kiraayedaar mentality. A large number of yuppies have moved straight from their colleges to pubs and apartment buildings. They used the safety of the society and families around till the time it suited them but the moment they found freedom like a faccha they raised their aspiration levels to libertine levels. Gave up voting, started making excuses, made things difficult for their own parents, next step for these would be to start believing in some bunkum peddled from the safety of foreign lands via MSM, sponsored Moralists and agony aunts/uncles and some phoren returned neta ki aulad.

Against such a background how do you suppose an older order will be held in esteem. You cannot really preach respect for the elders into someone. Esp. for things, people are progressively exhorted to develop a hate/irreverence for.

ravi_g ji,

to an extent the "demands" of the day really affect how we behave. At the moment, consumerism, status, selfishness, perceived corruptibility of one and all, breakdown of authority in both society and state, are having a detrimental affect on how we speak to the others, whether we show courtesy and deference, how helpful we are, how we solve conflicts, whether we fulfill our promises and responsibilities, etc.

Basically when a society gets on on this ride, it is difficult getting off. But that also is our challenge.

I would say Saam will not work for the urban Indian milieu and in rural areas you have strong management challenges. Unfortunately Daan will also not work because the urban India also happens to be well endowed.

Danda and Bheda are the ones that require a low level of investment to develop. Just a danda in hand and a group of well informed hard core supporters willing to take on the toxic pus of MSM/Yuppiehood/Netagan/Boodhijeevi. A kind of cooperative effort between the urban rooted class and the rural rooted class. But usage of Danda and Bheda very much require a higher standard of conduct from the wielder of these methods. It was in this light that I advocated a Service first attitude. The desire for 'officer like qualities' that wish to see inculcated first carries a very real risk of giving us a new breed of brats, and that too better trained brats. To develop a man all through the IA puts in long hours and hard money. A lot of military training is about holding the fire and discipline of holding the line and firing exactly 3 rounds. You will never get the type of trainers wanted for that kind training for the kind of population that we have. Even if you dilute your standards to that of a non-officer levels of IA recruit, you need to provide for the right type of training. A sentry duty or gardening duty is of no use or the arthely duty. But simpler matters like a physical training satsang, kaar seva and physical labour are manageable things from all perspective.

True, Daan will not work directly. One would have to invest Daan in Saam. The whole "economy of esteem" runs on value inculcation in society. Now if the current generation has "lost its ways" and consider "sabse barha rupaiya" or rather "sabse barha dollar", then the value inculcation may not be possible by the current generation into the next, though I am sure they would appreciate it too if it were to be done. From one generation in the family to the next was the traditional method of passing on the "economy of esteem". Since that may be broken, the Rashtra may have to do its reintroduction - through the medium of education.

So Saam is the main vehicle for realigning the values of the current generation or the next ones to Bharat's traditional "economy of esteem", or to one which has been found to be most effective in improving the Human Character Index (HCI), the Social Stability Index (SSI) and the Rashtra Development Index (RDI).

Human Character Index: It would be difficult to really measure HCI as it often concerns indicators that are not measured but are very much the main indicator of society - friendliness, helpfulness, responsibility bearing, sharing, care for the weak, trustworthiness, etc. So probably it would have to be done through polling, and asking people how they feel other people behave towards them. But there are other indicators as well like public scuffles, sexual harassment, rape, crime rate, prison occupancy, etc which bring down the HCI.

Social Stability Index: SSI measures such indicators as median marriage age, divorce rate, teenage pregnancies, abortion rate, single-parent families, extended families, school enrollment rate, school attendance rate, primary school scores, family therapist surveys, psychiatry care rate, alcoholism, drug use, etc.

HCI and SSI are the indices we need to improve in India.

The use of Dand for this purpose is I think an overkill. If at all it needs to be kept at a minimum. Maximum would be stoning people to death who have been accused of adultery. Minimum is telling people off not to misbehave in public.

Often a warning given by some institution which exudes strength is more than enough.

But mainly I would like the Samaj to be built around values that we receive through inculcation from various sources.

• Discipline in School
• Bharatiya Sanskriti Studies, which includes Character Building. This is important so that people derive their Prerna and Sanskaars from Bharatiya traditions.
• Women Empowerment Programs
• Mandatory Military Conscription for Higher Studies, which is again an institution where values can be inculcated.
• Role that Neighborhoods and Families themselves play.

Current society is simply a product of all the deracination and urbanization. One would have to retake control over these processes.

[RajeshA]

Yes, treating the country as 'mother' cannot be shirk, even by most Islamic standards. After all, in Farsi (and Urdu) it was quite common to refer to the motherland as "madre vatan".

I think in the Indian context, we have to provide a cogent argument why it should be possible for the Muslims to sing "Vande Mataram".

Perhaps when you come to it, you may like to make a blog-post on that.

Most importantly, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself used to have long conversations with one of the stones near the Ka'aba as well the black stone in the Ka'aba. After the hijrat to Medina, he tearfully told people he missed that stone.

Now that is very interesting!

If you come around to it, perhaps you can give the exact Hadith which refers to this event.

[RamaY]

Many secularists on the forum squirmed violently when Bharat is separated from India.

India: A civilisation of rapists?

India is the new Secular, Socialist and Democratic avatar of British ruled Bharat. Since the advent of British occupation and associated Christian dharma-sastra (later transformed into Secular dharma-sastra) in 1700 when Muslim ruled Hindustan (Muslim ruled Bharat = Hindustan) became British ruled India (Christian ruled Bharat = India) -

1/ India's share in world GDP fell down from 20% to 3%
2/ Casteism and casteist interests became more important than national interests and Dharma
3/ Technology (railways, armed forces, communications and media) is used to occupy the nation and its people
4/ Wealth generated in the nation is accumulated by few individuals who have external loyalties
5/ Corruption became the law of land
6/ Separate personal laws for Bharatiyas based on their faith
7/ Feudalistic democracy became normal
8/ ...

This India must be dismantled in order to save Bharatiyas from this intellectual slavery and for the well being of the nation.

[RajeshA]

RamaY ji,

you're correct.

The sins of "Islamic Hindustan", "British India" and "Deracinated Nehruvian India" are tried to be pinned on besieged Bharat. Bharatiyas must forcefully reject this equivalence. If there has been a degradation in the standards of character of Indian Men, then no way is the Bharatiya Sanskriti guilty of it, rather it is the lack of Bharatiya Sanskriti which has led us to this situation.

When was the last time Bharatiyas really exercise control and stability over the political, social and cultural institutions in India's history?! The patchy control that we did have in phases and places was mostly under siege.

[member_20317]

RajeshA ji,

I read every single one of the posts on this thread. The 'economy of esteem' is not something that I am intrinsically against. What I have my doubts on is how to achieve that esp. considering the trajectory the people have taken.

Also no I do not believe in danda for all seasons, even though I may have given that impression. Sorry about that. In fact the recent protests by urban youth over corruption and rape have strengthened my pre-existing belief in the urban youth. The skills to identify the opponent and work against the opponent may be missing but the will is not compromised. By advocating a calibrated danda I was merely trying to put up one of the possible suggestions to be employed:

1) against probably less then 0.01% of the urban and rural youth who relish the political backing. The hard danda for them.

2) against the lackeys of the west probably 2%-5% of youth who relish the MSM and rented morality as a backing. The soft calibrated danda for these. Mostly like 3-4 guys giving the Protsaahan.

My standard of the civil conduct starts from the simpler variety, the traffic red light. Its true people jump red lights which is certainly bad. But then there is a lot more that is happening at the red light which at least to my view absolves pretty much all the people of this country from any wrong doing. Hence the pride in the people and the general belief in their normality. All these people need only to be informed of the missing perspective that was propagandized out by vested interests. Most times this crowd while weak, are receptive to the earthy ideas being discussed here. They will certainly give thought to 'economy of esteem'. No doubt. But this is not the differentiating factor for us to move from the current position.

In fact I place far far more faith in the Bheda in the competitive situations, the situations that are the differentiating factor for us to improve our situation. Because we are not focusing on this differentiating factor of a fight we end up abandoning the larger majority to our competition.

[RajeshA]

In fact I place far far more faith in the Bheda in the competitive situations, the situations that are the differentiating factor for us to improve our situation. Because we are not focusing on this differentiating factor of a fight we end up abandoning the larger majority to our competition.

ravi_g ji,

perhaps you can elaborate this point, if possible with some examples. How would you like the principle of "Bheda" to be applied?

[Cosmo_R]

This is probably the wrong thread for this but the only other one I could think of was the TSP thread which probably is peripheral to the outrage we should express regarding GoI's callousness:

"Washington, D.C. (March 21, 2013) -- The Hindu American Foundation (HAF) expressed disappointment with the Indian government's recent decision to deny refugee status to Hindus fleeing religious persecution in Pakistan. The announcement was made last Friday by the Indian Minister of State for Home Affairs, Mullappally Ramachandran, during a session in the Lok Sabha (lower house of Parliament).

"India's refusal to classify Pakistani Hindus as refugees, despite having endured systematic oppression and discrimination, is unconscionable," said Samir Kalra, Esq., HAF's Director and Senior Fellow for Human Rights, who recently visited Pakistani Hindu camps in the Indian city of Jodhpur. "Absent official refugee status or citizenship, these Pakistani Hindus are virtually stateless and lack the ability to move freely in India, obtain employment, or access basic government assistance."

http://www.hafsite.org/India_Denial_Ref ... dium=email

WTF? Dalrymple can get citizenship, other foreigners work unobstructed on tourist visas but Hindu refugees get &^*&&.

Does not exactly make for warm patriotic feelings towards this GoI

[ShauryaT]

Moving on with Ashrama Dharma and the role of the state.

A Grihasta is the anchor, who sustains the individuals in the other three ashramas of society. Early parts of Vanaprastha may witness some high incomes but if the obligations are to be fulfilled, the expectation is these incomes in Vanaprastha will decline, for most.

Most grihastas would be married. The principle of marriage is both partners are equally bound to pursue their purusharthas and out of those are duty bound to pursue artha, kama and dharma jointly. So, it would reason that all their wealth and belongings, their deeds and their responsibilities have joint ownership and control. The age old practice of a woman treating the husband as an image of god and the man treating the woman as part of himself, is a time tested principle that has sustained society and harmony.

However, western law insists on individuality into a relationship that our shastras saw as indissoluble. Western law talks of rights for individuals but shirks away from devoting responsibilities for the same. Western law has means to divide wealth but does not provide glues that bind. With these fundamental differences in mind and approach, shastras had never recognized the concept of divorce, except under some excruciating circumstances. There were things like spouse is not traceable, impotency or unable to fulfill duties of a spouse as exceptions.

With the rise in nuclear families and under the aegis of western law, coupled with a degradation of dharma in society and an over emphasis of the role of wealth, along with a degradation of values and ethics, has led to severe strains to what a marriage means today from being sacrosanct to being dissoluble. In that we are moving more towards the Islamic concept of marriage being a contract. It dilutes the spiritual basis for society's closest relationship between two independent humans. Recognizing this importance, our society invested in this relationship with elaborate rules and customs, binding entire families and communities in such a relationship.

The costs of the western concept of divorce to society are huge in every way. Western law puts a strange emphasis on free will, in the guise of independence without due balance to obligations and duties. Although the rights are enshrined in law, strangely the duties are not. Where rights and duties are not in balance between individuals in relationships, the cumulative effects of these imbalances are felt on society. Western society is a lab example of the issues we see in their society that Indian society, is set to duplicate under the aegis of our current laws. The socio-economic indicators for single family homes lag compared to those of married couples. Even within two parent homes, the economic pressures can sometimes lead to a certain neglect of the child but we shall not get into that aspect for now. The same identical issues can be seen in some animal related tests too.

We need amendments in laws to set a high bar for divorce. We need amendments to test failures in light of pursusharthas. We need amendments to ensure that divorce is provided only for highly irresolvable and valid issues only. We need to restore the sanctity of the man-woman relationship in marriage by restoring its divine element back. The married couple together are responsible for their creations, for its sustenance and together can stop harm from coming to their creations and themselves.

[RajeshA]

This is probably the wrong thread for this but the only other one I could think of was the TSP thread which probably is peripheral to the outrage we should express regarding GoI's callousness

Cosmo_R ji,

thanks for your post here. It is interesting however that in the whole strategic forum, you think this was the only thread which could reflect this outrage suitably. Good to know that the usefulness of this thread was appreciated.

[ShauryaT]

But I disagree with your statement that "there is no way to measure such achievements anymore." Ways exist in different schools, but in this Age there is no broad agreement, and inter-school quarrel is the norm. Therefore, application of standard methodology for measurement may be difficult from a political PoV. But individual corporations will adopt standards based on whichever expertise they trust. I gave an example of I/O psychology being used by large corporations in the West.

Corporations value only economic parameters, attempts to measure things such as social responsibility and environmental aspects notwithstanding.

It is the society and the state, that need to value contributions beyond economic indicators. Especially one of service. I have been grappling with, how to enact these measures using scientific and objective tools as opposed to subjective ones. Any insight will be greatly appreciated.

Added: The only way for corporation to play a role, would be if their charter is amended to one of making profit to add other things but am not clear, what is a corporation to do in these areas, except as an organizing medium for communities. Laws will have to be amended to measure and check these other obligations apart from profit. Maybe the way out is for better auditing of non-profits but a little hazy.

Varna can also be applied to measure these service contributions and achievements.

[Agnimitra]

Most importantly, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) himself used to have long conversations with one of the stones near the Ka'aba as well the black stone in the Ka'aba. After the hijrat to Medina, he tearfully told people he missed that stone.

Now that is very interesting!

If you come around to it, perhaps you can give the exact Hadith which refers to this event.

RajeshA ji, there are lots of traditions of talking stones, trees, etc. in Islamic hadith. I first heard about it in halaqah (Islamic study circle). But you can just google it (link 1). Although such esoteric things are made fun of by anti-Islamic websites, it is quite interesting to see these things within the tradition.

"The Black Stone will appear on the Day of Judgement (Qiyamah) with eyes to see and a tongue to speak, and give evidence in favor of all who kissed it in true devotion, but speak out against whoever indulged in gossip or profane conversations during his circumambulation of the Kaaba" - Bukhari and Muslim

Ibn 'Umar said: "Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) faced the Black Stone touched it, and then placed his lips on it and wept for a long time." 'Umar also wept for a long time. The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: 'O 'Umar, this is the place where one should shed tears.''' (Reported by Al-Hakim, who considers it a sound hadith with a sound chain of authorities)

there are others about his long conversations, I will have to dig those up.

More from Sahih al-bukhari:

“Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah: The prophet used to stand by a stem of a date-palm tree (while delivering a Khutba). When the pulpit was placed for him we heard that stem crying like a pregnant she-camel till the prophet got down from the pulpit and place his hand over it.” Vol. 2, Bk. 13, No. 41

“Narrated (Abu Huraira): The prophet said, ‘The (people of) Bani Israel used to take bath naked (all together) looking at each other. Prophet Musa (Moses) used to take bath alone. They said, ‘By Allah! Nothing prevents Musa (Moses) from taking a bath with us except that he has a scrotal Hernia.’ So once Musa (Moses) went out to take a bath and put his clothes over a stone and then that stone ran away with his clothes. Musa (Moses) followed that stone saying, ‘My clothes, O stone! My clothes, O stone!’ till the people of Bani Israel saw him and said, ‘By Allah, Musa (Moses) has got no defect in his body.’ Musa (Moses) took his clothes and began to beat the stone.’ Abu Huraira added, ‘By Allah! There are still six or seven marks present on the stone from that excessive beating.’” Vol. 1, Bk. 5, No. 277

“Narrated Abdullah bin Umar: Allah’s messenger said, ‘You (i.e. Muslims) will fight against the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, ‘O Abdallah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.’ In another quotation: ‘The hour will not come until you fight against Jews.’” Vol. 4, Bk. 52, No. 176

“Narrated Abdullah bin Masúd that he was asked, ‘As to who informed the prophet about the Jinns at night when they heard the Quran?’ He said that a tree informed the prophet about them.” Vol. 5, Bk. 58, No. 199

There has been discussion about whether these ideas of trees and stones talking are to be taken literally. Wherein it is quoted that the Prophet says that a time will come when men will talk without using their voice. And trees and stones have languages of their own.

Sowayd bin Ghaflah said: "I have seen 'Umar kissing the Black Stone and touching it." He further said: "I know that the Prophet (peace be upon him) was especially very particular about it.''

(Ahmad) Muslim has reported on the authority of Abu Tufail that he said: "I have seen the Prophet (peace be upon him) making tawaf around the Ka'bah and touching it with a stick and then kissing the stick."

"The Black Stone is Allah's right hand on earth. In other words whosoever touches the Black Stone he pledges allegiance to Allah, as it were, by giving his hand into the hand of Allah, just as some followers do pledge their fealty to their kings and masters, by kissing and shaking hands with them."

Moreover, the Prophet would particularly love the Yemeni corner of the Ka'aba. The Ka'aba and the Black Stone also model the cardinal directions of the sacred geography of Arabia as a nation and a holy land.

Thus, Islamic gnosticism acknowledges that there is a time and a mystical dimension wherein not only all sentient creatures have languages of their own, but even apparently insentient aspects of the universe such as matter, energy space and time itself have languages of their own, and that certain humans can learn those languages by humility to the Supreme Creator of all animate and inanimate beings. Thus, having a relationship with a geographical entity that is tied to a living civilization is part and parcel of Islam - except that it is tied to Arabia in that instance. But the Prophet said that a Moslem should obey and be loyal to his country of residence, and so it is not illogical that the same relationship can be extended to the civilizaational land of one's residence and belonging. Thus, while Arabia has a significance for all Moslems, each also loves and has a spiritual relationship with their own motherland. This relationship is possible not by shirk, but by acknowledging that all sentient and insentient beings are creations of Allah. Islam is their deen, but their qaums are different. For Indo-Moslems, Islam is their deen and Bharata is their qaum. I see no conflict. Only motivated priesthoods create conflict where none is required.

[Agnimitra]

Corporations value only economic parameters, attempts to measure things such as social responsibility and environmental aspects notwithstanding.

Yes, they are measuring personality traits and talents as relevant to their economic and administrative swaartha.

ShauryaT ji, I blogged something on your questions.

Fatehnamah - A Tale of two Wills

The idea of the servant leader is already popular in corporate management styles. In public sector and non-profit management theory it is even more popular and the devotion to the 'public good' (rather than the bottom line) is a prominent subject. But even here, there is debate about what exactly is a 'public good', and whether that is a constant.

One can serve only according to one's innate proclivities. Service can be thought of separately from conventional stereotypes. So in management psychology, sometimes corporate trustees will choose a CEO who is of a personality type that is motivated by growth, sometimes by a type that is motivated by maintenance of current trajectory, and sometimes by a type that is motivated by dissolving an entity for maximum gain to the trustees (while disposing off the employees in the best possible way)!

The most ethical culture in an individual, society or ideology (theistic or otherwise) comes from an Enhancement drive, where there is no perceived scarcity and want in the physical and metaphysical reality taken together as a whole. But in a mentality driven primarily by the senses, a harsh social environment or a certain kind of cult mindset, a Dominance-Slave drive is prevalent in all aspects. In such a case, humility or humiliation are the only choices. 'Lower' than that is a mentality of Voidism, which provides security by nullification or invalidation of a potential rival's significance, either physically or metaphysically.

But all three are part of Dharma, no doubt. In its struggle with Adharma, it is possible that Dharma can make any such proposal based on a different equation of hard and soft power - but always tending in the direction of an Enhancement Drive where it finds its balance.

Guru Gobind Singh ji is a sterling example of someone who created something in order to dissolve the current political structure. His mission was destruction, he wrote in praise of Chandi Durga, and he created the Khalsa - as a specific application and mission of the already existing Akali Dal. He annointed them and then asked to be annointed by them. In executing his mission, he used all three drives - nullifying, domineering, and enhancement of all elements of existing society - to accomplish his purpose, as can be seen in the Fatehnama (below).

Added: The only way for corporation to play a role, would be if their charter is amended to one of making profit to add other things but am not clear, what is a corporation to do in these areas, except as an organizing medium for communities. Laws will have to be amended to measure and check these other obligations apart from profit.

Corporate social responsibility needs to be fleshed out more, perhaps. They are an organizing principle in society, along with religious organizations and other social and political interest groups.

But laws can burden corporations that need to be agile and nimble in the current globalized environment - where the laws in your country are not applicable in another country and may hand them the comparative advantage if it puts too great a burden on your own corporations.

So it is public education plus dharmic sansthas that will have to inject ethics and a sense of social responsibility into the mainstream, and that lifeblood will find its way into aarthic corporations, etc. The key here is the corporatization of dharmic education (as dharmic sansthas) to some extent. This should not lead to "churchianity" of an Indic variety, given the depth of cultural context. But rather the sansthas would act as "portals" to the larger tradition, where participants are given the first rudiments in terms of ideas and also sanskaaras, that equip them to explore further and reach deeper into the civilizational and spiritual resources as needed.

Traditionally, some examples have been used to measure sanity. Certain simple spiritual practices can be good measures of personal sanity. The all-pervasive "japa" tradition in India (and abroad) is one such. The indicators expressed by a person sitting for about 2.75 to 3 hours of japa, and his ability to simply deal in separate and new units of time, without time-lag, and in the present moment, is a simple and significant measure of sanity. The ability to "do nothing" (from a material perspective) is an indicator of the ability to "do sanely" on a given responsibility, rather than be driven by a mind that's out of control. We want to identify the innate inclinations of the person, rather than the rather short-term compulsive inclinations of his mind. The compulsions and repressions of the subconscious mind (which can be manipulated by others) are not the same as the natural shamo-dama abilities of varNa, which is enacted on self-determinism or pan-determinism.

...

In the Fatehnama quoted later in the blogpost, the Guru touches on this criteria of sanity.

تسبیحات از شجه و رشته بیش

کزان دانه سازی وزان دام خویش

tasbeehat az shojeh o reshteye beesh / kazaan daaneh saazi vazaan daam e kheesh!

6. Your rosary is nothing more than tangled beads and thread, With every movement of your beads you only expand your snare of entanglements!

[Note: Here the Guru is referring to the test of sanity of will and purpose. It is an inferred fact that Aurangzeb would have not been able to experience any peace and bliss in his tasbeeh (japa), even if he carried one wherever he went. He may have clung to it for a sense of security, but there was no immediate experience of bliss in it, nor any clarity and ability gained from it. For Aurangzeb, the Holy Name was a co-dependency. For the Guru, it was a relationship based on pan-determinism.

A dharmaarthic system should foster pan-determinism between individual contributors, not co-dependency on or between elites and subjects.]

[RajeshA]

Carl ji,

thanks for your efforts. There was also of course the famous case where stones would call out if any Jews were hiding behind it.

As you say, there are no doctrinal reasons why the Indian Muslims should not sing Vande Mataram!

[RajeshA]

The age old practice of a woman treating the husband as an image of god and the man treating the woman as part of himself, is a time tested principle that has sustained society and harmony.

Do agree with the crux of your post, but in the future one would have to express the union of man and woman in marriage through some different metaphor, which emphasizes the equality between them along with the slightly different focus on roles.

What perhaps Dharmic orgs can help with is marital counseling.

[brihaspati]

This is probably the wrong thread for this but the only other one I could think of was the TSP thread which probably is peripheral to the outrage we should express regarding GoI's callousness:

"Washington, D.C. (March 21, 2013) -- The Hindu American Foundation (HAF) expressed disappointment with the Indian government's recent decision to deny refugee status to Hindus fleeing religious persecution in Pakistan. The announcement was made last Friday by the Indian Minister of State for Home Affairs, Mullappally Ramachandran, during a session in the Lok Sabha (lower house of Parliament).

"India's refusal to classify Pakistani Hindus as refugees, despite having endured systematic oppression and discrimination, is unconscionable," said Samir Kalra, Esq., HAF's Director and Senior Fellow for Human Rights, who recently visited Pakistani Hindu camps in the Indian city of Jodhpur. "Absent official refugee status or citizenship, these Pakistani Hindus are virtually stateless and lack the ability to move freely in India, obtain employment, or access basic government assistance."

http://www.hafsite.org/India_Denial_Ref ... dium=email

WTF? Dalrymple can get citizenship, other foreigners work unobstructed on tourist visas but Hindu refugees get &^*&&.

Does not exactly make for warm patriotic feelings towards this GoI

Why should GOI declare Pakistani "Hindus" as refugees? Does their "Hindu"ness lay any special claim on India as a rashtra? Dalrymple is a natural, he is "white British" in origins, and has onlee focused on the grandness of the Mughal India and the gentleness of the Raj. He has also made the obligatory noises against rightwing fundamentalism.

Can you give any reason as to why an identity that is not recognized as a religion or an ethnicity by most courts/legal luminaries of India - should have an official special claim on GOI?

Also the identity might hold the greatest number of "soup-nazis" - isn't it? Wouldnt it be dangerous for India to bring in more of them?

[RajeshA]

Dharmic Egalitarianism

Unless we make egalitarianism as the cornerstone of Dharmic society, we would only see others exploit the differences, the faults putting there own spin to these, and in fact weakening Dharma, Samaj and Rashtra. Any formal inequality, any formal division has a multiplier effect in real social divisions. On the one hand one creates a natural rationale for the more powerful to go overboard with his claim to superiority and power, and on the other one creates a natural rationale for the less powerful to feel inferior and sidelined.

We have to understand that all formal inequality feeds human instincts to exaggerate these in reality, thus breeding exploitation and discontent.

Real inequality is far less dangerous than formalized inequality, as formalized inequality furnishes the intellectual rationale for revolution on a platter, whereas real inequality within formal egalitarianism poses a threat only to the power-brokers but not to the system.

A society closed to external ideologies can be manipulated and structured as one wishes, however a society open to external ideologies always need to do active defense of the native ideology. One cannot allow such chinks in the armor of native ideology which can be exploited by external ideologies. Formalized Inequality in the native ideology is in fact a welcoming present to the external ideologies. So why should one allow it?

It is our good fortune that our Śhruti does not advocate any social divisions based on Varna nor do they demean the role of women in society. On the contrary Śhruti emphasizes the relationship between Ātman and Brahman.

As such it is necessary that Varnas as social divisions be abolished and one understands Purusha Sukta in its true meaning. Similarly the relationship between Man and Woman should be considered as between two equal and complementary individuals who together become a Whole social unit.

[RajeshA]

Grihasta Ashrama

The relationship between Man and Woman should be considered as between two equal and complementary individuals who together become a Whole social unit.

As Grihasta life forms the major Ashrama which contributes to society, the "Married Couple" should be considered the primary unit of society, before the Individual and the "economy of esteem" should be modulated accordingly.

In fact in order to emphasize the "Married Couple" as the unit of society, perhaps in local elections - municipal and panchayat one could introduce the provision that only "Married Couples" can vote and their vote would be considered as one vote. It can be argued that local bodies are the closest to Samaj and hence only the Grihastas should be allowed to vote there.

[RajeshA]

Bharat & Women

Published on May 03, 2007
By Raghbendra Jha
Women and the Vedas: iVarta.com


Women in Vedic Culture
By Stephen Knapp


Holy Vedas And Holy Bible: A Comparative Study
By Kanayalal M. Talreja
Publication Date: 2000

Chapter 7: Vedas Elevates Women

[Cosmo_R]

@Brihaspati ^^^: "...Can you give any reason as to why an identity that is not recognized as a religion or an ethnicity by most courts/legal luminaries of India - should have an official special claim on GOI? "

I have yet to find anyone or anything to have a claim—special or otherwise on GoI. So, in that sense, it has delivered as expected.

When an outrageous event occurs in the US for example, it is first played out in the media and the offending party is shamed into relenting. In India, with its myriad press controls (not just the English media) based on 'public interest' (efforts to control the Internet), that is not possible. Not that the media in India have any spine to begin with.

The Indian (GoI) parallel to the US approach seems to be to wait until 'sentiments are hurt' and the requisite mobs are assembled and the minimum the number of buses are torched. Then it 'acts' (they trot out Shinde who hails from a long line of rural underachievers to deliver babel)

I was amazed (well, not so much) at the reaction of one 'community' last year when the Burmese and the Rohingyas went at each other. Buses were burned in Mumbai and SMSs went out Bangalore (maybe that was only peripherally related to Myanmar).

The Delhi Rape incident response was another example—GoI first locks down Delhi!

So what's my takeaway? GoI is in the business of protecting itself from the people (as is the PRC and TSP) as compared to most other democracies (Italy for example) who at least make a show of trying to protect their people.

The complete lack of compassion for the Pakistani Hindus in India is just another sorry example of disconnect that only serves to foster anomie among the 'aam admi'.

[ShauryaT]

Do agree with the crux of your post, but in the future one would have to express the union of man and woman in marriage through some different metaphor, which emphasizes the equality between them along with the slightly different focus on roles.

What perhaps Dharmic orgs can help with is marital counseling.

We continue to disagree, as you continue to bring in foreign concepts of equality, individualism, egalitarianism, freedom and now something totally unconnected "economics of esteem"! et al. A culture that teaches the discovery of the true self, has to think in terms "self worth"? Wonder, where do they come from? Your perception that these were the underlying causes for our civilizational failures to protect against foreign invasions? Please do cite the works of some real experts on the issue.

These are not the anchor concepts around which dharma and its civilizational history are based upon. A history that you have rejected as built by morons. Adding the word dharmic to them, do not make it so - accepting the true civilizational history does. Interpretation and adjustments in laws and structures to suit a generation are necessary - reinvention of dharma is not. Reinvention or amelioration was Nehru's agenda - leading to the adoption of the christian derived west minister system. You are on the same route - the difference being, you liberally add the word Dharmic to all of the foreign concepts, imagining that you have the liberty to reinvent SD for society. Nehru failed and so shall you.

Nothing personal RajeshA ji, but the difference in views is stark and best to let it be known.

[ShauryaT]

Might well as get this one out, unposted from some days back.

Yes and after spending about 20 years of retirement, with 80 it is quite possible that the individual would start renouncing sansaric obligations.

At 80 over half the population is dead, so what kind of scheme is this?

Saṁnyāsa is not obligatory. It is recommended for the dvijas, and often it is discouraged among Shudras AFAIK. There are no Pan-Bharatiya rules on this. Your rules may not apply to somebody else.

Is this a practicing Hindu talking or a namesake one? What has Sanyasam to do with Dwija? If the ashramas are not obligatory then what are they? Discardable advisories based on individual perceptions! The entire life system of dharmas are obligatory. What part of these obligations become laws can be debated. As per some orthodox practices only Brahmins go through the dwija process, now what? Accept that premise? If Shudras do not have this stage, what do they have to do at old age, keep working and produce babies? Forget the space-time constrained practices and go to the principle of Sanyasa. What is it? Then extrapolate and apply that principle to topical life is the way to go about this process. If in this process, certain practices around that principle makes sense then use them, if not modify and use, if even that is not possible then come up with a new practice but uphold the principle.

The principle of sanyas is, it is a life marker to denote that all your sansaric obligations to self, family, community, nature, country are over. There is no more need to work for anyone’s benefit, except Ishwara’s. All works at this stage of life have to be for the benefit of Brahman is the idea of Sanyasam. It is life’s final journey, it ought to be towards Ishwara. It does not mean we stop doing works. We do works till our body is able. As per some estimates, the latest age by which Sanyas should be taken for most is between 70-75 years of age, based on today’s life spans.

Now what is the role of the state here? Their role is to ensure that the environment is conducive and an enabling and rewarding one for those at that stage of life. The fruits of your labor is devoted towards god only – which is Karma Yog. There is a way to devote these fruits of labor to Ishwara even as a grihasta and that is what the BG is all about, the life of a Karma Yogi. Moksha is not something that is to be attained at the very end only. It can be attained as a grihasta too, but very few would have the discipline to do so. The journey towards Moksha can begin at any time, even if not reached by most. The fulfillment of dharma and Moksha are not linear to Artha and Kama, They can be in parallel.

You must give some thought here as to whether you want a Rashtra which acts only according to your own sampradayik understanding of Sanatan Dharma, or the principles be translated into policies for the larger diverse society.

RajeshA ji: If you find any idea, not confirming to SD’s universalist principles, please point out but cannot respond to misinformation. For the purpose of this thread, I am not counting practical difficulties as this thread is in the vision category. Ideological and organizational unity has been the bane of our causes for misery. The very purpose of laws is to define controls. Controls do not work in a vaccum, they need the support of society. Society is governed by a much larger set of rules, that are not written or enforced by Rashtra.

Yes and depending on one's own wishes, one can choose to stay with the family or admit oneself to the Rashtriya Saṁnyāsa program.

It is a hair brained program, for only half of the people in old age, for what no one knows, why no one knows, why is it state run, no one knows and how does it serve dharma, no one knows.

That is a decision for the "elderly"! If the "elderly" feels comfortable within his family, he should stay there, and if not the State offers him an alternative.

Why? Why a state alternative? What is the rationale, gratitude? For what? No, the real reason comes below, it is called copping out from one’s responsibilities and outsourcing it to the state.

Also it is questionable that the needs of the elderly over 80, especially the health care needs, can be met within the family. An old people's estate can be much more specialized for the purpose. Family can of course visit them anytime.

You may have this vision of some utopian society where every child takes optimal care of the disabled immobile elderly parent but that is often not the case. Somebody who has done so much in life for others, should not at the end of his life feel abandoned and helpless or a burden. The dignity of life is here of primary consideration. The state cannot be overburdened with bureaucracy whose only job is to go around checking if people are taking care of their elderly parents and punishing them if they are not.

Also you seem to ignore the level of not-so-well-off who may not have the luxury of looking after the elderly and still need to go to work!

A much more efficient system would try to give succor and dignity to the elderly rather than get hung up over the question whether the children are doing their duties or not, which promotes only rancor.

I do not know which world you come from or which society are you talking about but it is not a dharmic one. Have you gone around asking poor people if they want to outsource their elderly at age 80 to a government run care center. I do not know about you but I will bet that they will mentally spit at someone asking this question. Most Hindus regardless of their incomes do take care of their elderly. It is the essence of being a Hindu to live together as a family. The ability of family units to take care of each other is the essence of the opposite of materialism and ego culture, based on me first. A small minority do not fulfill these obligations and these can be potential targets for law enforcement. Also, it is not about checking who is compliant or not, it is about enforcing the law based on standards. The state acts based on a complaint.

Having said this, there is a real underlying issue, which is value based. With the general decline in following through on Ashramas and the lack of organizational or state support for the idea, the value systems in society as a result is itself going through a fast top spin towards disaster for the Indic society. The western values and western orientations of our structures will decidedly produce western society issues in our society too. Not until, the value systems are changed and structures support these value systems that we would decidedly more towards dharmic living again, who’s anchor has been VarnAshrama.

[RajeshA]

ShauryaT ji,

it is okay to have differences in views. We can all live with that.

Interesting is only that your criticism is all based on claiming that what I propose is not "Dharmic Tradition". This is something one can debate because the "Dharmic Tradition" you quote is according to me not sanctioned in Śhruti but is just one application which went wrong.

So you haven't really provided any logical criticism to anything that I have proposed except the "Not Dharmic Tradition Rhetoric". That is fine. I would simply conclude that you have no logical arguments against the suggestions. That is why I said, you look to orthodoxy, that too one astray from scripture, and not to intellect.

You wish to reestablish a society as was before it was rudely shaken by Islam. Instead of acknowledging the changed circumstances in the world you simply like to ignore them. One can hardly make rational suggestions with the head in the sand. Please make suggestions keeping the current world in mind, which has a multiplicity of ideologies all competing for attention. Don't lose yourself in daydreaming. I agree that we are all daydreaming here to some extent, but let's not look for miracles!

I really don't know what what your model has to offer the majority of the Hindu masses, who would automatically be turned off from your insistence on reintroducing Varna? I don't even know why you think you will get even a sliver of support needed to make such a model, the operating system of Bharat!

[RajeshA]

Might well as get this one out, unposted from some days back.

Yes and after spending about 20 years of retirement, with 80 it is quite possible that the individual would start renouncing sansaric obligations.

At 80 over half the population is dead, so what kind of scheme is this?

<snip>

I do not know which world you come from or which society are you talking about but it is not a dharmic one. Have you gone around asking poor people if they want to outsource their elderly at age 80 to a government run care center. I do not know about you but I will bet that they will mentally spit at someone asking this question. Most Hindus regardless of their incomes do take care of their elderly. It is the essence of being a Hindu to live together as a family. The ability of family units to take care of each other is the essence of the opposite of materialism and ego culture, based on me first. A small minority do not fulfill these obligations and these can be potential targets for law enforcement. Also, it is not about checking who is compliant or not, it is about enforcing the law based on standards. The state acts based on a complaint.

Having said this, there is a real underlying issue, which is value based. With the general decline in following through on Ashramas and the lack of organizational or state support for the idea, the value systems in society as a result is itself going through a fast top spin towards disaster for the Indic society. The western values and western orientations of our structures will decidedly produce western society issues in our society too. Not until, the value systems are changed and structures support these value systems that we would decidedly more towards dharmic living again, who’s anchor has been VarnAshrama.

As I said your ideas of Dharma is to hide your head in orthodoxy and in age gone by. The spirit of Dharma seems to be alien to you.

What do you think families would do until their elderly turn 80? Wouldn't they be taking care of them? Many as you said would not live till such a ripe old age! That means their families would in fact have taken care of them till death! Isn't that what you too propose?

As for the rest, where have I suggested that this be a compulsory program? Those elderly who are willing to stay with their children should stay with them, and the children would take care of them.

The program is of use only for those elderly who wish to seek a place of solace and quiet, a place where they concentrate only on the spiritual and think that a different environment would be more appropriate for this quest. Secondly the program is of use only for those children who may not be so noble as to fulfill their responsibility towards their elderly parents. That is ALSO REALITY. Do you wish the elderly who have done their Karma Yoga all their lives to suffer at the hands of such irresponsible children?

Can you guarantee everybody in Bharat would only have Suputras?

The problem is you want your Rashtra only to enforce Varna but no solidarity! Your "Dharma" seems to be very one-dimensional!

Mind you, I have suggested solidarity both in collective effort in educating all the children in India and providing them with health benefits, as well as a collective effort in taking care of the elderly, both in case the family and the concerned persons so desire!

You can try tagging my suggestions as some Western-inspired thoughts contrary to Dharma, but that means little until you can give some reasons what is wrong with them!

You have advocated that people think in terms of 'sacrifice', but you have given no proposal which would facilitate them to think in such manner! 'Sacrifice' is something people could give willingly only if Samaj reiterates its commitment to solidarity. If the 'sacrifice' is to society, then the solidarity must also come from society itself, and cannot be shifted to the spiritual world. Where is the concept of solidarity in your suggestions?

[ShauryaT]

Do you wish the elderly who have done their Karma Yoga all their lives to suffer at the hands of such irresponsible children?

See, the above is a perfect example of using words without knowing what they mean and then go on to claim to know the essence of Dharma. Karma Yoga is NOT the same as Karma. Most people DO NOT live a life a of Karma Yoga. A live of karma yoga is a life lived, where the rewards are devoted to Ishawara. It is a life of nishkam karma with no attachment to fruits or dwelling in its expectation. MKG's life is an example of such a life lived - as a politician. Not many can claim to have lived a life of Karma Yoga.

The above example is part of the reason, I do not like responding to ALL the posts that you have as it is tiresome to keep on telling you - your mind is not immersed in SD concepts and practices.

[RajeshA]

ShauryaT ji,

I am well aware of what Karma Yoga means! Did I not speak of "sacrifice for the nation"? The context of Karma Yoga was also the Rashtra! So I had given quite clearly what I mean by "Karma Yoga" here! We are here trying to understand the concepts of Sanatan Dharma on how they can be applicable in the Dharmaaarthic context, for Samaj, for Rashtra! It is not simply a pure philosophical quest here. For that one has the Philosophy Thread in GDF! The focus is different here!

But like always you are skirting the question! Your mind is only immersed in Varna! Try to think beyond it!

If you have difficulty accepting the wording, perhaps I can rephrase it:

Do you wish the elderly who have sacrificed all their lives for the Rashtra by doing their Karma to suffer at the hands of such irresponsible children?

Can you guarantee everybody in Bharat would only have Suputras?

So what does "your Dharma" provide as a solution for the elderly if they have only Kuputras?

[ShauryaT]

Karma Yoga - has a very specific and well established meaning, cannot even begin to understand that in context of "sacrifice" to the nation, old age and the role of government. A person does not have to prove ANY "sacrifices for the nation" to have lived a life of Karma yoga. You have repeatedly used that word, as if every person at old age has lived a life of Karma Yoga. Why would you do that? What has old age to to to with "sacrifices for the nation"? What does that even mean?

As for guarantees for sons or even guaranteeing that sons or even daughters will take care of their elders - no such guarantees exist. But, here is the essence of your argument that since no such guarantees exist only the state is in a position to guarantee such a desired outcome and hence the state should get a role. Do you know, how much of this logic is the underlying root of the current socialist government?

By bringing the state into the mix to "takeover" an essential obligation of grihastas, you seek to destroy a key essence of dharmic life, A life fulfilled by fulfilling obligations! Inability by some to do so, can be dealt with. State takeover is a no, no. Now, ofcourse, you will try to say, but it is not essential for all, etc, and so forth. This thread is about the role of the state in support of SD concepts and rules. Enforcing tenets of Ashrama dharma is one of them.

RajeshA ji: Even the most ardent readers of SD, have a hard time dissecting the true meaning of our Srutis. You claiming so, is a bit rich. Every contemporary leader vested in dharmic knowledge has said so from swami dayananda sarasvati, to swami chinmaya to Sri Aurobindo to MKG. You take words of some verses and read into them, what your mind tells you, ignoring history, tradition and practice. There are many charlatans out there in orange robes, who do the same. What I say is logical or not popular or not acceptable or not - really do not worry about those things as long as I remain true to the SD view, its principles, ethos, history and traditions. I do not conveniently ignore or discard something based on my views of how things should be but accept how SD views things as they are. From that prism, new interpretations can flow to suit new situations. What you seek is amelioration without understanding or accepting SD’s practices. JLN did the same.

Shall not respond to your misinformation on Varna et al. No point, as your mind is not immersed into its key concepts and you as usual are in a reaction mode to everything around you. Already have said enough on Varna and if you still did not get the gist of the arguments then, repeating them will not help.

[RajeshA]

ShauryaT ji,

so basically it is only definitions you can throw at people, without providing any solutions! And calling me names like deracinated Western-inspired, ityadi! I too can call names like "casteist", but I chose not to! Wouldn't be doing it either!

As for guarantees for sons or even guaranteeing that sons or even daughters will take care of their elders - no such guarantees exist. But, here is the essence of your argument that since no such guarantees exist only the state is in a position to guarantee such a desired outcome and hence the state should get a role. Do you know, how much of this logic is the underlying root of the current socialist government?

I have spoken time and again that that the State does not play much of a role in Grihasta and Vanaprastra. Those are Ashramas when people usually have strength. Even in Brahmchari Ashrama, I've advocated only unconditional state support till schooling! Later on it is all based on merit!

So one thing one cannot really say is that I support "Socialism"! At least this should have been clear! Socialism is all about supporting grown up people capable of working.

But as can be seen, you did not offer any solutions to the case when the children are irresponsible or not capable of looking after the parents or one does not have any children!

Even the most ardent readers of SD, have a hard time dissecting the true meaning of our Srutis. You claiming so, is a bit rich. Every contemporary leader vested in dharmic knowledge has said so from swami dayananda sarasvati, to swami chinmaya to Sri Aurobindo to MKG.

Lets be clear, the only verse of contention is Purusha Sukta Verse 12. I am not making any claims on any other parts of Śhruti.

ignoring history, tradition and practice. There are many charlatans out there in orange robes, who do the same. What I say is logical or not popular or not acceptable or not - really do not worry about those things as long as I remain true to the SD view, its principles, ethos, history and traditions.

You can hug onto your Varnas. You can daydream about them. Their time in Bharat is over!

Interesting is you call my interpretation rich, but claim for yourself that you abide by the principles and ethos! How do you know that the "traditions" you speak of are in fact congruent to principles and ethos of Sanatan Dharma? All you can claim is that you stick to some history and some traditions! Principles and Ethos are beyond you if they are beyond me!

Karma Yoga - has a very specific and well established meaning, cannot even begin to understand that in context of "sacrifice" to the nation, old age and the role of government. A person does not have to prove ANY "sacrifices for the nation" to have lived a life of Karma yoga. You have repeatedly used that word, as if every person at old age has lived a life of Karma Yoga. Why would you do that? What has old age to to to with "sacrifices for the nation"? What does that even mean?

Think again over this. Perhaps you would understand the relationship between "Nishkam Karma" and "Sacrifice to the Rashtra"!

The above example is part of the reason, I do not like responding to ALL the posts that you have as it is tiresome to keep on telling you - your mind is not immersed in SD concepts and practices.

Perhaps I do not follow all practices but if you had understood the concepts, you would have had less of a difficulty mapping these to the current reality! For example you would not have insisted on reinstitutionalizing varnic social divisions, a system that failed utterly to protect the Rashtra from the Islamic and then the British onslaught, both ideological as well as physical, a system where the people put their varnas before the interests of the Rashtra, a system where not everybody was brought onboard and trained to resist the invaders! You want to reintroduce Varnic social divisions even though using rhetoric about these formalized inequalities, alien imperialist religious ideologies are wrecking havoc on the fabric of Bharatiya Sabhyata!

We do have a big gulf between us! I respond to your posts only because of the amount of notions framed in the language of Dharma you like to peddle which has not been thought through! I again repeat, all your objections to what I write are solely based on being in contravention to "tradition", while my objections are based on the fundamental logical flaws in your thinking!

If my posts towards you have been aggressive than that is simply because instead of having a civilized conversation you decided to indulge in making insinuations of me not understanding Dharma, western-inspired, etc. instead of appreciating productive questions or giving productive criticism!

Anyway, let's leave it at that! I won't be commenting any more on your posts!

[Agnimitra]

Swami Shraddhanand - Documentary
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iihUBz86osc



A docu about a great freedom fighter and social reformer, Swami Shraddhanand. As a youth from the Punjab, living in Benaras, he became disillusioned and disgusted with Hinduism because of the inequity and silly 'traditions' he saw all around him. Later he was inspired by Swami Dayananda. His work was mainly in the following fields:

1. Waged war against all forms of caste discrimination and exclusivity. E.g. he took a leading role in the Vaikom Satyagraha against untouchability.

2. Started an alternative Gurukul education system that taught all modern sciences in addition to Veda. This campaign, where he raised significant funds by inspiring wealthy Hindus and then set up the gurukuls, was seen as a threat by the British to the Macaulayite education system they had set up.

3. Mobilized and fought for freedom with great daring. E.g. he convened a rally in Amritsar in the aftermath of Jallianwala Bagh massacre, when the Congress was running scared of convening its plenary session there due to martial law.

4. He was always for inclusiveness and Hindu-Moslem unity. He became one of the first Hindu leaders to address a joint rally from the Jama Masjid, Delhi. But later when Islamist politics was on the upswing and the Congress was following a policy of appeasement, he criticized that harshly. He had a no-nonsense attitude towards such malicious politics. Islamists had mounted a conversion campaign, targeting all vulnerable sections of Hindu society. In response, he launched a shuddhi drive that cause alarm and rage. Eventually he was assassinated for it.

Today, folks that consider him an inspiration work on four types of projects for nation-building -
regular schools (science),
shaastra,
shastra and
shuddhi.
These would inject the skills into society that crystallize into varNa-vyavasthA.

[ShauryaT]

Swami Dayananda Sarasvati too was clear in the Satyarth Prakash, recognizing Varna based on works and its nature and rejecting the hereditary basis of Varna, prevalent in society.

[Agnimitra]

Swami Dayananda Sarasvati too was clear in the Satyarth Prakash, recognizing Varna based on works and its nature and rejecting the hereditary basis of Varna, prevalent in society.

Yes.

ShauryaT ji, there is a tricky part here -- and it is at the heart of the mutual suspicions between 'traditionalists' like you and 'reformists' like RajeshA ji. We need to measure the works that spring from the "innate nature", rather than works that spring from a "conditioned nature". Most people without a psycho-spiritual process act out according to a conditioned nature. So if someone is conditioned by a family that respects certain behaviors, he/she tends to adopt that identity and duplicate those behaviors, even if it means suppressing other innate tendencies. A person keyed up with "pride in one's roots", privileged access to sources of knowledge, etc will "naturally" take to it - especially if there is no parallel process of spiritual self-discovery and self-determined decision-making. If we confuse varNic "guna-karma" with such conditioned nature... then it eventually just ties varNa back into jAti.

Therefore, I appreciate that you had broached the important subject of a spiritual process and a method to "measure" the "nature of the nature" that is being acted out. I think if we understand the following, then a lot of the suspicion and disagreement between yourself and RajeshA ji can be handled creatively:

1. Difference between innate nature and conditioned nature - nature versus nurture.
2. A method to "measure" the level of "keyed-up" conditioning in the Will and Intention behind works expressed by an individual versus the calm "sanity" that goes with the will and Intention of innate varNa.
3. Respective roles that should be played by (a) family, (b) society, (c) educational system, and (d) government in the 'nurture' part.

In my previous response to you I had expressed some thoughts on this, from this post: Fatehnamah- A tale of two Wills.

I believe public education combined with Dharmic sansthas is the key. The public education would disseminate skills or preparation for advanced skills across society. Secondly, a portion of public education should involve a gurukul-style "boarding school" environment on a commune, where students are with teachers' and staff's families, and away from their birth-families, helping out in different duties of communal living, being close to nature, etc. Thirdly, Dharmic sansthas should be active in society and faith-based initiatives should be incentivized by the government based on certain criteria. Such Dharmic sansthas would focus on prachaar and "shaastra + shuddhi" type activities. They would have to work with families and different castes and other such natural sociological groupings. So while the public education and gurukul system is tied to the state, the dharmic sansthaas are tied to homes, families and castes, etc. People with your 'traditionalist' bent of mind would make good teachers in Dharmic sansthas. Based on local demographics, the public schooling system can have dharmic electives and plugins as part of their life. This would be especially so in rural areas and small towns. Just some thoughts.

So perhaps by separating the respective jurisdictions and then combining the good aspects of 'traditional continuity' with the good need for socio-political 'reform', we can arrive at a better solution.

[RajeshA]

I believe public education combined with Dharmic sansthas is the key. The public education would disseminate skills or preparation for advanced skills across society. Secondly, a portion of public education should involve a gurukul-style "boarding school" environment on a commune, where students are with teachers' and staff's families, and away from their birth-families, helping indifferent duties of communal living, being close to nature, etc. Thirdly, Dharmic sansthas should be active in society and faith-based initiatives should be incentivized by the government based on certain criteria. Such Dharmic sansthas would focus on prachaar and "shaastra + shuddhi" type activities. They would have to work with families and different castes and other such natural sociological groupings. So while the public education and gurukul system is tied to the state, the dharmic sansthaas are tied to homes, families and castes, etc. People with your 'traditionalist' bent of mind would make good teachers in Dharmic sansthas. Based on local demographics, the public schooling system can have dharmic electives and plugins as part of their life. This would be especially so in rural areas and small towns. Just some thoughts.

Carl ji,

thanks for some "sanity"!

In terms of public education, I had proposed the "secularized" Bharatiya Sanskriti Studies.

As far as Dharmic sansthas are concerned, I'd written

Naturally Dharmics would be encouraged to study these subjects in much more depth and from a different PoV as well where the supremacy of these concepts can be better emphasized, but that would be outside the realm of "secular education" and would have to be undertaken in a different educational environment in addition to the above "secular education".

I had meant that "secularized" Bharatiya Sanskriti Studies in schools would not be advocating following some particular religion or dharmik sampradaya. That is up to the Dharmic Sanstha.

I can well-imagine that some Dharmic Sanstha may well advocate varnic social divisions, but I think most would have to appreciate the expiry of this particular application of Purusha Sukta understanding and try to bring to the students the very rich world of Sanatan Dharma which has outgrown the varnic social divisions, and do not have these chains on its feet which made all thought processes revolve solely around this outdated and counter-productive application.

[RajeshA]

What I say is logical or not popular or not acceptable or not - really do not worry about those things as long as I remain true to the SD view, its principles, ethos, history and traditions.

Speaking of rich, something that was posted earlier

Does a Dhramic society even have any meaning witout Varna Dharma?

If one reduces Sanatan Dharma to only Varnic social divisions, and appreciates none of its other myriad treasures, it is indeed rich then to claim to be "true to SD view, its principles, its ethos"! All one is then married to is Varnic social divisions, but not Sanatan Dharma, and if one were to consider Sanatan Dharma as Purusha, then Varnic social division concept, as we understand today in hindsight, would surely be that Purusha's excrement, not really part of Purusha.*

* Neither the Purusha Sukta Verse 12, nor Bhagavad-gītā Chapter 4 Verse 13, speak of social divisions when speaking of Varna.

Soon Bharat and indeed the world would understand Sanatan Dharma's egalitarian beauty and perfection!

[devesh]

Carl ji,

it's not just "suspicion" of the "traditionalists". it's something much more visceral. those of us who didn't have to struggle against it, or were uniquely positioned to benefit from the "traditionalism" will never understand the struggle of those who had to wage a psychological battle to break free of many bonds imposed by the "traditionalists". I can tell you personally that such struggle, especially during peak periods, will make the struggling individual(s) easily prone to poaching tactics by the proselytizers. it is only through the prolonging of that struggle, and continued quest to get to the essence of one's self, does an individual finally break free of both the traditionalists and also the tantalizing "incentives" of the inimical proselytizers.

I have been trying to go back and read ShauryaT ji's posts in this thread, and increasingly I see why the "traditionalists" always have one trait common to all of them: almost picture-perfect surety in the "rightness" of their so-called "proper" approach. no matter how strongly I feel about my own opinions, I don't have the arrogance to pretend that my way is the best and brightest way, but the "traditionalists" have no such qualms. They'll happily and merrily advertise that deviation from their "proper" path leads to "falling" from the "uttama-patha". The sheer arrogance is jarring. sorry if I offended anyone.

[RajeshA]

Continuing from the "Understanding Islamic Society" Thread

I have observed something - while every sect tends to disagree with other sects in every culture, I see that in Islamic social circles it is far more common for people to believe and repeat the most ridiculous, humiliating or horrific things about non-Moslems - including their own pre-Islamic ancestors. It is far more common and very easy for even 'moderate' Moslems to lightly 'joke' or ridicule some non-Moslem tradition, often in an obscene way -- and I always noted that the very same person would not take too kindly to the same kind of ridicule or obscenity directed at Islam's sacred idols. The use of ridicule and deliberate exaggerations about the horrors and injustices of non-Moslems is very, very common and prominent in Islamic society. In terms of casting the other in a horrific light, they prefer to do it in a self-directed way - 'they hate us and hurt us'. Once an Iraqi American kid told us in halaqah (Qur'an study circle) that he had heard that the long red tilak the Hindus wear on the head symbolizes the blood of Moslems.

Ridicule, Obscenity, Distortion, Exaggeration, Humiliation are indeed rhetorical weapons of choice among certain ideologies for attacking Sanatan Dharma and Bharatiya Sanskriti.

What is required is we blunt these weapons!

1. Of course first of all it requires that Bharatiyas take full control over the narrative around Sanatan Dharma and Bharatiya History. No Martha Nussbaums, no Wendy Donigers and no Michael Witzels should enjoy any locus standi at all. Only Bharatiyas and Global Dharmics should enjoy this privilege and access.
   
   I think there is a massive effort underway among Subcontinental Muslims to portray Brahminists as invading Aryans, destroyers of Buddhist temples and casteist subjugators of native Dalits, who were liberated by Islam, positing Sanatan Dharma as both alien to Subcontinent as well as oppressive to the natives, and thus deserving of everything that Islamic invaders carried out in India. Islamic rulers are being shown as those who built roads and other infrastructure in India, and who raised the standard of living of the people by bringing the treasures hoarded into temples again into monetary circulation. All of India's scientific discoveries are attributed to Buddhists and "Brahminists" could only do astrology and nothing more.
   
   What is history? History is what public believe happened. By creating this Sanskritic vacuum, the current system has allowed the Islamics in India to distort history as and how they please creating victimization and hatred for Hindus.
2. Within India, through Bharatiya Sanskriti Studies, by sensitivizing students to symbology and psychohistory within our customs, mythology and history, we can effectively counter Abrahamic rhetoric weapons, especially if passing examinations in Bharatiya Sanskriti Studies become a precondition for doing higher college studies and thus getting jobs.
3. Furthermore some specification of "Rules of Engagement and Religious Debate" would also help clarify what and how one can claim certain things about the other.

[RajeshA]

Integrating Muslims into the Mainstream

We have to understand that India is unlike any other country with a Muslim minority e.g. in the West. There the Muslim minority can withstand the pull of the mainstream through creating ghettos, etc. but most importantly because the ethnic divide separates the Muslims from the others, and the community ensures that it stays that way. In India there is no ethnic divide, or language barrier.

What separates the Indian Muslims from the majority in India are:

1. Ghettoization,
2. Family,
3. Politics,
4. Religious Doctrine,
5. Induced contempt for Hindu icons and customs
6. and most importantly a different cultural-historical narrative.

So how do we bridge the divide?

1. Breaking up the ghettos has to be a determined effort and one has to reintroduce brave Sanatanics into the milieu forcing the Muslim ghetto leadership to accept them as part of society.
2. Through a concerted effort one would have to create Hindu-Muslim familial ties, all the time insisting on retaining the Hindu identity. A program to empower women should help.
3. Politics can be effected if the Muslims are presented with a scenario where their votes banks stop making any significant difference. By instituting 50%+1 Votes as necessary for winning elections, one would see that candidates would have to build their vote coalitions much differently than to pandering to Muslim conservatives. If vote banks stop helping then every Muslim would vote based on his interests - bijli, pani, sadak!
4. Muslims are of course free to study their religious doctrine, but one can still institute safeguards that preachers do not preach hatred and that these are not influenced from abroad.
5. By "forcing" Muslims to learn "secularized" Bharatiya mythology, philosophy, culture, arts, Dharma, Sanskrit, etc. there will be little scope left for ridicule, obscenities and humiliation.
6. By "forcing" Muslims to learn Bharatiya prehistory, Itihaas, pre-Islamic history, Bharatiya-centric Islamic and British history, India's scientific achievements, etc., the scope of Islamists filling impressionable brains with lies would also end.

This is the path back for the Muslims into the mainstream.

[AbhiJ]

Rename the Andaman and Nicobar Islands back to Shaheed and Swarajya Islands.