Eastern Europe/Ukraine

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 18 Apr 2014 20:07

WSJ Breaking News ‏@WSJbreakingnews 10m

Ukraine's acting prime minister says government offering 'wide-ranging' constitutional reform http://on.wsj.com/1oOslWm

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 18 Apr 2014 20:47

Reg the indian travel advisory:

Huh? How can anyone send a subject where the letters are written in bold. I am quite surprised by the bold claim without proof reading / thinking about it.

Besides, isn't a bold and capital subject quite rude? Thankfully they didn't go even more overboard and ask for red, bold and capitals. EMERGENCY more like it!

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 Apr 2014 22:53

How can Russian govt. sign any agreement saying what The People of Ukraine should or should not do, hain?

What I am curious about, is why the US is party to this Agreement. Since the days of Theodore Roosevelt if not before that, the USA has had a clear long-term policy to steer clear of Oiropean bissing contests, has it not?

TSJones · Post by **TSJones** » 18 Apr 2014 23:18

UlanBatori wrote:How can Russian govt. sign any agreement saying what The People of Ukraine should or should not do, hain? What I am curious about, is why the US is party to this Agreement. Since the days of Theodore Roosevelt if not before that, the USA has had a clear long-term policy to steer clear of Oiropean bissing contests, has it not?

....please read the treaty where Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons.....what countries signed that?

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 18 Apr 2014 23:34

Novorossiya Is Back from the Dead
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2 ... ia_ukraine

ty of Odessa, I found my way to the modest tent encampment in a park that has now become the spiritual center of the local pro-Russian movement. There, I met 39-year-old Yegor Kvasnyuk, a bespectacled lawyer who is one of the coordinators of what is widely known in Odessa as the "Anti-Maidan." As the name suggests, the Anti-Maidan forces strongly reject the current interim government in Kiev, born as it was from the Euromaidan uprising that toppled former President Viktor Yanukovych in February. (Kvasnyuk insists that successive Ukrainian governments have repeatedly failed to take the legitimate desires of the Russian-speaking population into account. Russian is by far the dominant language in Odessa (though many there speak Ukrainian as well). Yet Kvasnyuk says that he and other pro-Russian activists spent years trying to get official recognition for teaching Russian in schools and allowing the use of it on government documentation. The Anti-Maidan activists also cite the deep cultural and political divides between Russian-speaking easterners, many of whom feel considerable nostalgia for the Soviet Union, and the Ukrainian nationalists from the western parts of the country, who regarded Soviet power as their mortal enemy. "There are very few of those people here," says Kvasnyuk. "But there are a lot of them in the West, and they want to rule us."All of which is why, Kvasnyuk says, that he and his colleagues have joined the push for wide-ranging "federalization," meaning extensive autonomy for Odessa and its surrounding province. If that sounds similar to the primary demand issued by the insurgents who have now taken control of several key government buildings in eastern Ukraine, it's no accident: Kvasnyuk wholeheartedly approves of their actions, which, he says, are simply a "defensive response" to repressive policies pursued by the revolutionary government. He claims, without offering specifics, that the Kiev government violently suppressed pro-Russian demonstrations in the East, prompting the current revolt there.Kvasnyuk stressed that his movement isn't ready to give up on the idea of Ukraine altogether. "Right now we hope that we can solve our problems ourselves, without help from Moscow," he told me. But what if the government in Kiev doesn't offer quite as much autonomy as the pro-Russians want? "If we don't get federalization," Kvasnyuk told me, "then there won't be any way to preserve the integrity of Ukraine." So, in effect, secession. But what about after that? Would Kvasnyuk want to join Russia?It was here that our conversation took a rather unexpected turn. No, he explained. It would make more sense for the other Russia-oriented parts of Ukraine to join together to form a new country of their own -- a country he referred to as "Novorossiya." His eyes sparkled. "A population of 20 million, with industry, resources.""Novorossiya." His eyes sparkled. "A population of 20 million, with industry, resources." With advantages like that, who needs to become a part of Russia? "By European standards that's already a good-sized country.""Novorossiya." I'd heard the term before -- but mainly in history books that described the 18th-century Russian wars against the Ottomans that resulted in the Russian Empire's expansion to the coast of the Black Sea. The newly conquered territories were dubbed "New Russia," a name that was still being applied to southern Ukraine right up until the late 19th century. My conversation with Kvasnyuk, however, was the first time I'd heard the term invoked as a possible state-building scenario in the 21st century.

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 18 Apr 2014 23:53

TSJones wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:How can Russian govt. sign any agreement saying what The People of Ukraine should or should not do, hain? What I am curious about, is why the US is party to this Agreement. Since the days of Theodore Roosevelt if not before that, the USA has had a clear long-term policy to steer clear of Oiropean bissing contests, has it not?

....please read the treaty where Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons.....what countries signed that?

Whenever some one talks of treaties with US, the first thing that comes to my mind are the treaties of their "founding fathers", i.e. indian treaties.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Apr 2014 01:21

Good Job, "Yats": Why The Neocons Subverted The Ukraine
By David Stockman

Though the Ukraine crisis caught Obama and Putin by surprise, the neocon determination to drive a wedge between the two leaders has been apparent for months, especially after Putin brokered a deal to head off U.S. military strikes against Syria last summer and helped get Iran to negotiate concessions on its nuclear program, both moves upsetting the neocons who had favored heightened confrontations.

http://davidstockmanscontracorner.com/g ... Day+Friday

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 19 Apr 2014 03:44

UlanBatori wrote:How can Russian govt. sign any agreement saying what The People of Ukraine should or should not do, hain? What I am curious about, is why the US is party to this Agreement. Since the days of Theodore Roosevelt if not before that, the USA has had a clear long-term policy to steer clear of Oiropean bissing contests, has it not?

TSJones wrote: ....please read the treaty where Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons.....what countries signed that?

Virupaksha wrote: Whenever some one talks of treaties with US, the first thing that comes to my mind are the treaties of their "founding fathers", i.e. indian treaties.

Ouch that hurt wounded Knee

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 Apr 2014 06:27

....please read the treaty where Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons.....what countries signed that?

Good point. However, there is a good reason why the US would be a party to the Ukrainian nuclear disarmament; Most of the nukes in Ukraine has US Zip codes programmed into their memory, and I am sure a good number of US nukes had Ukrainian zip codes programmed as well.

But beyond that, the good sense of Roosevelt should have prevailed here. The State Department is criminally stupid to allow the US to get drawn into this. Because the world has changed. This agreement sets the clear precedent for China, if not Russia, to walk all over the Monroe Doctrine.

I think POTUS BO has/had the right instinct - he wants to have nothing to do with Ukraine. But he is coming across as impeachably incompetent by not cracking down and taking control of the State Dept. And the LePubricans are not going to let him get away with it, they must be licking their chops and rubbing their hands watching the Ukraine disaster following the Syria disaster following the Libya disaster following all the other disasters. I feel bad for him, but he very very urgently needs to REALLY crack down and take control.

My prediction is that the end game here is the partition of Ukraine into the DonBaz area that is essentially a Finlandized buffer for Russia, Crimea assimilated into Russia, and the Kiev regime sitting in so-called control of an impoverished agrarian West Ukraine with no energy reserves, no industry, no money to pay their mercenaries.

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 19 Apr 2014 07:01

Also making it a landlocked country Austria, but let it keep Navy like Swiss Navy.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 Apr 2014 07:12

keep Navy like Swiss Navy.

No Navy left - they had a grand total of one ship (a destroyer). The captain/Admiral defected, and the ship was brought into Sevastopol Russian Naval Base. The rest of the Navy - the guys who held the Ukrainian bases for a week or so until forced out... have long-since surrendered. The only remaining Navy are the guys who jumped out of the APCs as they crossed the Dneiper.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 19 Apr 2014 07:26

wow. what a clusterf*ck.

eurobeans have a habit of nicking around and destabilizing all countries to their own interest.

This is what eastern ukraine looks like...

https://news.vice.com/video/russian-rou ... epage-lede

LOL@the mongolian

dnieber crossing swimmers huh?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 19 Apr 2014 08:13

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... eneva-deal
Pro-Russian separatists defiant as Ukraine peace moves flounder

Occupations of public buildings across eastern Ukraine continue as separatists accuse Kiev of violating Geneva deal

International attempts to de-escalate tensions in Ukraine were floundering on Friday as separatist groups in the east declared that they had no intention of leaving occupied buildings and accused Kiev of violating an agreement reached in Geneva on Thursday.

Russia, Ukraine, the EU and the United States struck a diplomatic deal in the Swiss city, following seven hours of talks, that was supposed to see illegal groups withdraw from municipal buildings and hand in their weapons.

Twenty-four hours later there were no signs that any of the anti-government groups were preparing to budge. Instead, protest leaders said they would continue their occupations until their demands were met. A rebel militia seized an administration building in Seversk, a small town outside the regional capital Donetsk.

At a press conference on Friday Denis Pushilin, the self-styled leader of the "Donetsk People's Republic", said his supporters would stay put until a referendum on the region's future status was held. He dismissed the current pro-western government in Kiev as illegitimate. "We will continue our activity," he declared.
Link to video: Ukraine's foreign minister: 'I don't know Russia's intentions'

Pushilin said no meaningful de-escalation was possible while Ukraine's interim prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and president Olexsandr Turchynov were still in their jobs. "We understand that everyone has to leave buildings or nobody does. Yatsenyuk and Turchynov should vacate theirs first," he said.

Moscow's envoy to the European Union reiterated this position, telling Russian state television that authorities in Kiev had "incorrectly interpreted" the Geneva deal. He said Ukraine's new leadership mistakenly believed that the deal "only applies to the eastern and southern provinces" when it also applied to "the ongoing occupation of Maidan [Independence Square in Kiev]".

Pro-Russian separatists grabbed a string of public buildings across eastern Ukraine a week ago. The militia units – some of them similar to the armed "little green men" who appeared in Crimea in February – have occupied them ever since. Nato says the separatists include professionally trained undercover Russian soldiers. Moscow denies this.

In Kiev, Ukraine's acting foreign minister Andriy Deshchytsia said the next few days would demonstrate whether Russia actually intended to implement the Geneva deal, signed by Russia's foreign minister Sergei Lavrov. "I don't know Russia's intentions. But minister Lavrov did promise that they want to de-escalate. So we will see in a few days if it was [a] sincere promise and sincere participation."

The separatists, however, seem in little mood to give ground. Pushilin said Kiev had already violated the Geneva accord by refusing to pull its military units from the east of Ukraine. "They have not withdrawn their forces out from Slavyansk," he said. Beleaguered Ukrainian troops occupy a rustic aerodrome close to Slavyansk, north of Donetsk, and neighbouring Kramatorsk. On Wednesday they suffered the ultimate humiliation when armed separatists, seemingly led by Russian officers, seized six armoured vehicles from them and drove off.

Pushilin delivered his anti-Kiev message to Russian state television, which had turned up to interview him. He was speaking from the 11th-floor of Donetsk's regional administration building, now a sprawling camp of anti-government and anti-western protest.

Pushilin describes himself as the "people's governor". He appeared to be reading from a carefully-drafted script. Several media advisers sat nearby. He told Russian television that Kiev was denying the local population access to insulin and withholding desperately needed medical supplies. He asked ordinary Russians to donate money to a numbered account with Russia's Sberbank to help the cause.

A local businessman, Pushilin and other deputies from the "Donetsk People's Republic" are entirely self-appointed. Their key demand is a referendum on federalisation by 11 May, two weeks before presidential elections. It is unclear what questions might be included.

Their goal is to create an autonomous eastern republic separate from Kiev. After that most want the new republic to join the Russian Federation, in imitation of Crimea annexed by Moscow last month. Kiev says Pushilin and other separatist leaders are under the control of Russia's spy agencies.

Visiting Donetsk on Friday, Ukraine's former prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko denounced Russian interference and said that Russia's special forces had been highly active across the east of the country. She said she was in Donetsk to negotiate with pro-Russian protesters, conceding that Ukrainian and Russian speakers now had to make "compromises" if a solution to the crisis was to be found. She said this compromise could be achieved if Russia withdrew its agents from eastern Ukraine but warned of violence if it did not.

Tymoshenko – whose pro-western party dominates the new government – said that she was creating a "resistance movement" militia to fight for Ukraine's territorial integrity. This would be an armed force made up of volunteers with military experience, she said: "We will do everything to restore harmony and peace in our country and to stop aggression. But if it doesn't happen we are ready to defend ourselves … with weapons in hand."

Tymoshenko ruled out holding a regional referendum, saying that it didn't match constitutional requirements, and adding that Kiev "can't recognise it". "We don't want anyone to demand that Ukrainians vote in a referendum under the barrels of Russian weapons," she said.

Meanwhile ,the CIA's dirty tricks is being exposed with the infamous "letter to the Jews" has been found to be fake.The Yanquis are doing their best to tarnish the reputation of the pro-Russians in the east and Putin himself,but lakc credibility because everyone on the ground knows the truth,that the Kiev chickens in "control" of the maidan-and that's about all of their country that they control,are illegitimate,puppets of the West whose gambit at seizing power through orchestrated violent street protests,a tactic that had worked before,had spectacularly failed.The world is now being entertained to the manner in which the chickens lost the Crimea and are now losing the east.

http://rt.com/news/fake-news-ukraine-russia-364/
‘Letter to Jews’, which Kerry cited, appears to be fake

A letter urging the Jews of Donetsk to get registered, which the US Secretary of State cited in Geneva, is a fake says a man whose signature appears on the communication.

Following the four-side meeting on the Ukrainian crisis in Geneva on Wednesday, John Kerry lashed out at a letter that was allegedly sent to Jewish citizens in Ukraine’s eastern town of Donetsk, asking them to register and report all their property, or be stripped of citizenship and face expulsion.

“In year 2014, after all of the miles traveled in all the journey of history, this is not just intolerable, it's grotesque… beyond unacceptable," he stated.

Images of the letter have been circulating online.
The letter was stamped and signed by Denis Pushilin, who was identified on it as the “People’s Governor.”
However, Pushilin denied he had anything to do with the letter, claiming it was a fake.

“There are similar letters not only addressed to Jews, but also to businessmen, foreign students, people of certain other occupations,” he told RT. “This is actually a fake, and not a good one. There’s a sign “People’s Governor”. First of all, no one calls me by that title, no one elected me. Secondly, the stamp is the former mayor’s. Everything’s photoshopped.”

Pushilin added that sensible people can only take what the authors of this “letter” were trying to say with humor. The self-proclaimed Donetsk People’s Republic “is multinational,” he said. “We get along perfectly well here with everyone. And there aren’t any conflicts on national grounds, that’s for sure.”

Although the letter’s authenticity is questionable, the fact that it was mentioned by a top US official has quickly sent the “Letter to Jews” story viral. It struck a very sensitive chord with audiences worldwide and cast a grave shadow over anti-government protesters in Donetsk.

The “letter” story also went ballistic on Reddit. However, its authenticity was seriously questioned and the social network community concluded the document is "almost certainly fake."

Meanwhile, a Ukrainian MP who has visited the turbulent region, Boris Kolesnikov of the Party of Regions, has urged that information coming from Ukraine should be double-checked.

He believes that Ukrainian law enforcement agencies aren’t being totally honest when they describe the people participating in the protests and claim there are Russian servicemen among them.

Kolesnikov specifically referred to a video which earlier appeared online. In it a man in a military uniform told police officers, who switched sides in the city of Gorlovka and joined protesters, that he was Russian lieutenant-colonel from Simpheropol, Crimea. The man was later identified by Gorlovka residents as the former director of a local cemetery.

“Officially, I’ve only seen one Russian serviceman,” Kolesnikov said. “The next day he appeared to be the ex-director of the Gorlovka cemetery, fired 2 years ago for selling 38 fences, stealing a monument and extorting money from old women for new graves. There are Interior Ministry and intelligence services in the country, which should give us truthful information.”

He added it was quite obvious that the protesters in Donetsk did not represent any danger to civilians and called for negotiations with the activists. These talks would explain Kiev’s position and that the government is ready to make amendments to the constitution.

The US appears to be relying on information from Kiev, while ignoring alternative points of view. And so it seems that a top US official picked up and railed about a letter of questionable authenticity.

Earlier in April, spokesperson for the US Department of State, Jen Psaki, said that protest events in eastern Ukraine “appeared to be a carefully orchestrated campaign with Russian support.”

She was then asked if the department was only relying on Kiev in its assessment of the situation, or was using some independent sources.

“Well, of course we remain very closely in touch with the Ukrainian Government, and that’s who we work closely with, and of course, they are on the ground, so their information is often very relevant and current,” was the reply.

Published time: April 18, 2014

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Apr 2014 10:09

Fox News ‏@FoxNews 5h

Pentagon mulls sending ground troops to Poland amid #Ukraine crisis http://fxn.ws/1kKg9Ex

Virupaksha · Post by **Virupaksha** » 19 Apr 2014 10:21

so the war mongers ruling the US are starting to not believe their puppets on ground and are coming out from behind the curtain.

Also note the country to which they are being deployed, Poland. Its role in the coup and its power over the clique is an open secret.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Apr 2014 10:42

Obama has already committed to no "No boots on the ground". This does not include CIA and their local collaborators.

I see this as aimed at domestic crowd, to convey a message of strength when Obama is under fire from Republicans.

The US is drawing the red line at the Polish border which it knows Russia has zero interest of breaching. After Russia has taken over Ukraine in one form or the other this can be spun at home/US as a NATO/US victory. "We stopped them at the Polish Border" would be the domestic US message.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Apr 2014 11:12

TSJones wrote:
UlanBatori wrote:How can Russian govt. sign any agreement saying what The People of Ukraine should or should not do, hain? What I am curious about, is why the US is party to this Agreement. Since the days of Theodore Roosevelt if not before that, the USA has had a clear long-term policy to steer clear of Oiropean bissing contests, has it not?

....please read the treaty where Ukraine agreed to give up nuclear weapons.....what countries signed that?

The Treaty was not ratified by Parliament of any of these countries so it was not a legally binding one just a Memorandum ......reason the West did not invoked it.

It was also in West interest to disarm Ukraine of Nukes as they didnt want then as they dont want now a 6th recognised Nuclear Armed nation.

member_28352 · Post by **member_28352** » 19 Apr 2014 12:25

Looks like the MUTU/MMTM protein fed Poles are doing a tactical brilliance here by getting US soldiers into Poland. Expect secession movements to start in Eastern and Northern Poland also demanding more autonomy.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 19 Apr 2014 13:06

the donetsk nationalists refusing to obey any accord is precisely the chankian move the Maidan krantikaries pulled a day after the so called peace accord was signed by ex-Pres Yanukovich.

Rus govt can only wring it hands and profess a limited degree of control over such "non state actors" onlee

and the popular will of the ppl on ground is what must prevail for true justice.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 19 Apr 2014 15:58

"You can't treat Russia like a guilty schoolboy who has to put a cross on a piece of paper to show he has done his homework," Peskov said in an interview with Russia's First Channel. "That kind of language is unacceptable."

through ZH

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 Apr 2014 16:43

The US appears to be relying on information from Kiev, while ignoring alternative points of view. And so it seems that a top US official picked up and railed about a letter of questionable authenticity.

Earlier in April, spokesperson for the US Department of State, Jen Psaki, said that protest events in eastern Ukraine “appeared to be a carefully orchestrated campaign with Russian support.”

She was then asked if the department was only relying on Kiev in its assessment of the situation, or was using some independent sources.

“Well, of course we remain very closely in touch with the Ukrainian Government, and that’s who we work closely with, and of course, they are on the ground, so their information is often very relevant and current,” was the reply.

Lest we forget: This sounds exactly like Colin Bin Powell, circa 2002 saying that General Musharraf has said that he is 400% sure there are no terrorists in Pakistan, and Bin Powell believes him. That was about a year before he waved those equally believable "satellite intelligence photos of Iraqi WMD" in the UN Security Council.
Vinasa kale vipareeta budhhi Or as they say in suburban Ulan Bator:

хэвтэж арын цоорхойнууд!!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Apr 2014 18:58

Washington Post ‏@washingtonpost 2h

U.S. ground troops to deploy to Poland http://wapo.st/1mkJlV1

Poland and the United States will announce next week the deployment of U.S. ground forces to Poland as part of an expansion of NATO presence in Central and Eastern Europe in response to events in Ukraine. That was the word from Poland’s defense minister, Tomasz Siemoniak, who visited The Post Friday after meeting with Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel at the Pentagon on Thursday.

Siemoniak said the decision has been made on a political level and that military planners are working out details. There will also be intensified cooperation in air defense, special forces, cyberdefense and other areas. Poland will play a leading regional role, “under U.S. patronage,” he said.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 Apr 2014 19:24

Looks like they are taking UBCNews' advice and putting the 82nd Airborne in BEFORE the Revolution takes over the buildings

GW Bush was crowned with the great honor, then considered unbeatable:
Less popular than Saddam Hussein.

Now BO is breaking that record:
Less popular than Vladimir Putin.

Backlash in Poland is probably not far behind: how is the Polish economy, any expert opinions here?

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 19 Apr 2014 19:28

The US has achieved what it wanted all along. A justification to put Nato boots on ground close to Ruskie borders with Ukraine being the bakra and Putin the bogeyman. MIL heads back in the "homeland" will be hopping in joy.

It seems Om-baba has had the last laugh and Putin has played into its hands.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Apr 2014 20:16

Poland is a NATO country and like any NATO country which US too is part of they can deploy troops , air assets etc the latter which they do from time to time.

US Ground Troops in Poland is a good PR exercise for US to tell its people they are strong nothing beyond that.

Infact US has its tactical nukes deployed in Europe NATO for a long time.

Military action beyond PR is not an option for NATO/US had that been possible they would have done it by now , Imagine should such Crimea situation had happened involving some other country there would have been UN Resolution and NFZ by now with NATO Troops marching in to save the situation.

After a year or two every one will forget and West will be doing business with Russia buying Oil and Gas and funding major projects.

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 19 Apr 2014 20:25

NATO troops in Poland is an interesting gesture. I don't think Putin is looking to invade Poland. he has a good estimation of Russia's strength and posture, and he would know very well that invading, or even appearing to invade, Poland is a geopolitical disaster for Russia. at that point, even India would be forced to essentially side with the "West" and go for an all out isolation of Russia.

No, the NATO troops in Poland is not a detergent

to anything, simply because there is nothing to deter.

UNLESS....UNLESS NATO is willing to use those troops to threaten Russia with direct conflict. IF that is the game plan, then those troops could very well play a role.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Apr 2014 20:47

Austin wrote:Poland is a NATO country and like any NATO country which US too is part of they can deploy troops , air assets etc the latter which they do from time to time.

US Ground Troops in Poland is a good PR exercise for US to tell its people they are strong nothing beyond that.

Infact US has its tactical nukes deployed in Europe NATO for a long time.

Military action beyond PR is not an option for NATO/US had that been possible they would have done it by now , Imagine should such Crimea situation had happened involving some other country there would have been UN Resolution and NFZ by now with NATO Troops marching in to save the situation.

After a year or two every one will forget and West will be doing business with Russia buying Oil and Gas and funding major projects.

This is not about military. Now NATO is turning into new members only club since they want to participate with US is east europe. The Old members will stay back.

Poland is ambitious and has old grievance against Russia. It is a ground for US EJ and this new European plans are being planned by US EJ. US EJ must find areas of infleunce and growth in the new century and they are putting the seeds of these growth everywhere. Poland is the ground for Europe now.

Check this regarding Poland

devesh · Post by **devesh** » 19 Apr 2014 20:50

^^^
The Holy City won't relinquish hold over Poland so easily. Rome will def have a role if Poland is the new "frontier" against the "barbarians".

this is a complex game. you have UK+USA+RCC+"West" diddling with Poland.

I hope the Poles know what they are doing. it won't be the first time the "West" left them high and dry at the 11th hour.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 Apr 2014 21:09

Poland animosity towards Russia is not an unknown commodity to them , Poland was the place where the GWB ABM sites were to be deployed and I have seen few interviews of Polish FM during Crimea crisis and they are more than happy to to extend an Arm and Leg to US.

When it comes to Poland and US there is the old Russian Proverb which goes "Don't be afraid of the dog who barks, but be afraid of the one, who is silent and wags its tail"

The Dog that Russia would be really worried about in Europe is Germany the others are just rhetoric high on decibel good for Western Cable TV

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Apr 2014 21:19

ABC News ‏@ABC 1h

Ukraine suspends the "active stage" of its "anti-terrorist operation" http://abcn.ws/1jjC4PZ

member_28502 · Post by **member_28502** » 19 Apr 2014 21:56

UlanBatori wrote:Looks like they are taking UBCNews' advice and putting the 82nd Airborne in BEFORE the Revolution takes over the buildings
................
................................

Backlash in Poland is probably not far behind: how is the Polish economy, any expert opinions here?

Better than
Italian
Spanish
Portuguese
Greek
Cyprus

for sure

Remittances from Chicago itself exceed the above economies

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Apr 2014 22:38

<OT>

USA TODAY ‏@USATODAY 1h

Venice wants out of Italy http://usat.ly/1gUIyq8

The region of Veneto, one of Italy's richest and the country's fifth-largest with a population of around 5 million, is preparing a formal referendum about whether to secede from Italy.

Constitutional experts say such a move would be illegal. But momentum is building: An informal online vote last month saw 89% vote in favor of breaking away. And last week, police arrested two dozen Veneto separatists on charges of terrorism for planning to take over Venice's iconic St. Mark's Square with a makeshift tank fashioned out of a tractor.

Venetians say they support the movement partially out of frustration at seeing their taxes used to support the underdeveloped southern part of the country. Campaigners say they pay out nearly $30 billion a year more in taxes than they receive in government benefits.

...
"It's all about self-determination — a basic human right that trumps anything written on paper in the constitution," Morosin says. "Most countries, including both Italy and the United States, were created by this idea."

...
"It's egoistic and it's illegal," he says of the independence movement. "A referendum on independence is meaningless because it's illegal. We're in this together. There would be no end to it if any group of people could just decide on their own that they are independent. You'd need a war for that to happen."

Government officials would not speak on the record about the Veneto independence movement. But Italy has taken actions against it.

Italian special operations units on April 2 arrested 24 secessionists who were allegedly planning a violent campaign for independence, charging them with terrorism, subversion of democracy and making weapons of war.

</OT>

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 19 Apr 2014 22:50

(Poland economy) Better than Italian, Spanish

How? (I am too lazy to search Wikipedia when there are so many ppl here who know these things..)
Poland used to have heavy industry like shipbuilding (Gdansk)... and what? Iron and steel are now dominated by Mittal, Hyundai, Kawasaki, Shanghai etc. Ships? Last I heard there was huge oversupply, again many former customers now build their own. Planes? Only GOI would buy Polish planes, for the bribes. Cars? Never heard of any. Booze? hardly. Drugs? I think poppy grows in Turkey/ Belgium much better. Tourism? Only Polish Diaspora visiting, who else would want to see desolate countryside and cold grimy cities? Cuisine? Scenery?

Hi-Tech circuitry? I think Estonia/Latvia are doing better.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 19 Apr 2014 23:18

Special report on US Russia relations

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 19 Apr 2014 23:31

UlanBatori wrote:
(Poland economy) Better than Italian, Spanish
How? (I am too lazy to search Wikipedia when there are so many ppl here who know these things..)
Poland used to have heavy industry like shipbuilding (Gdansk)... and what? Iron and steel are now dominated by Mittal, Hyundai, Kawasaki, Shanghai etc. Ships? Last I heard there was huge oversupply, again many former customers now build their own. Planes? Only GOI would buy Polish planes, for the bribes. Cars? Never heard of any. Booze? hardly. Drugs? I think poppy grows in Turkey/ Belgium much better. Tourism? Only Polish Diaspora visiting, who else would want to see desolate countryside and cold grimy cities? Cuisine? Scenery? Hi-Tech circuitry? I think Estonia/Latvia are doing better.

Buxom and pretty women is the most famous Polish export.

blease check your facts and read ub on the latest.

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 19 Apr 2014 23:32

But beyond that, the good sense of Roosevelt should have prevailed here. The State Department is criminally stupid to allow the US to get drawn into this. Because the world has changed. This agreement sets the clear precedent for China, if not Russia, to walk all over the Monroe Doctrine.

Sometime in the 2010's, the US decided that the Monroe doctrine became null and void? What's there to walk over that now.

[I am not sure why they did that cancellation of the Monroe doctrine -- was it because they suddenly realized the double standard and imperialism somewhere? Ouch]

vijaykarthik · Post by **vijaykarthik** » 19 Apr 2014 23:34

@mahadevbhu. LOL

I wanted to type this as response to his post: women, surely? If Agnieszka is any indication, the women should be good exports. But then in keeping with the forum rules, I kept mum. LOL

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Apr 2014 04:03

The poor Poles,begging to be the "doormat of Europe" once again! For centuries it has been wiped upon from both directions,east and west,the latest was WW2 and the Cold War."NATO is a post-dated cheque on a failing bank",to quote Gandhiji.The armed forces of once mighty empire like Britain,who have been warned by the White House,have shrunk to need a magnifying glass to find them.The economies of the EU are in a shambles and this posturing by NATO/US in Poland might be amusing PR ,while it is in full retreat from Af-Pak to Iraq!
The Poles will be "up the pole" again in the future.Remember what Uncle Joe is supposed to have said,"F**k the Pope. How many divisions does he have, anyway?" (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin)

Uncle Putin can simply moves his chess pieces on the board keeping NATO guessing where his next move is going to be and the answer usually is where you expect it least.To say that he has played into O'Bomber's hands is anything but the truth.He has regained the Crimea for Russia-a masterstroke,fait accompli for which "all King O'Bomber's arses and all the Queen's merrie men,cannot put Humpty Dumpty (Ukraine) together again!"

The Ukraine,or what's left of it is inevitably going to splinter ,and I predict before the feast of Stephen (Dec 26th).

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/a ... -militants
Inside the 'Donetsk People's Republic': balaclavas, Stalin flags and razorwire
Pro-Russian militants say they have no intention of leaving their eastern Ukraine base, and insist Moscow is with them

Luke Harding in Donetsk
The Observer, Saturday 19 April 2014

Masked activists with a banner reading 'Donetsk Republic'
Ukraine pro-Russian separatists with a banner reading 'Donetsk Republic' inside the building they have occupied in the east. Photograph: Sergei Grits/AP

It is part Soviet theme park, part wacky anti-western wonderland. Stuck to the barricades outside the "Donetsk People's Republic" are several caricatures of Barack Obama. There is Obama as Hitler, complete with moustache. There is Obama, Bonaparte and the Führer, and the words: "They all thought their nations were superior." And there is Obama as a monkey (the monkey-Obama, visible on Friday, had disappeared by Saturday).

Further inside, past a serpentine wall of tyres, activist Vitaly Akulov stood beneath a flag of Stalin. The Soviet leader had a Kalashnikov. Wasn't he responsible for the deaths of millions of Soviet citizens? "Without a tough tsar who uses harsh methods you can't build an imperium," Akulov observed. Other banners read: "F**k EU and USA", "Donbass with Russia" and "Russians should be together!"

Two weeks ago pro-Kremlin separatists seized Donetsk's regional administration building. They have been there ever since, transforming the 11-storey block overlooking the green Pushkin boulevard into an improvised youth hostel and counter-revolutionary HQ. They are a bizarre group, including teenagers in balaclavas, some just 15 or 16, and bearded men in military jackets. But if Vladimir Putin has his way they will soon become the east's new "government".

On Thursday, Russia, Ukraine, the United States and the EU hammered out a deal in Geneva to de-escalate the six-month-old Ukraine crisis. It was agreed that all illegal groups would end their occupation of official buildings and give up their weapons. Some 48 hours later, however, the separatists who have grabbed a string of municipal premises across the Donbass region, with the capital in Donetsk, had not budged.

"Of course we're not leaving," said Alexey Kirolov, a 24-year-old activist, munching his breakfast in the "republic's" pop-up ground-floor cafeteria. A table was laid out with sandwiches – salami and pork fat – biscuits, tea and coffee. Donated bottles of pickled gherkins were piled up nearby. But what about Geneva? "Russia signed a bit of paper. Everybody knows they didn't mean it," Kirolov said. "Putin's not going to give up on us. We're his people."

On the 11th floor – reached via a lot of stairs, since the lifts don't work – the "republic" leadership was planning its next move. In what used to be the economics and legal departments, exhausted activists lolled on chairs listening to the radio. On Friday "people's governor" Denis Pushilin, a neatly dressed local businessman apparently handpicked for the role, denounced the Geneva deal. He told journalists that his supporters wouldn't leave buildings before the "illegal" government in Kiev quit. A leaflet bearing his name had been dumped outside Donetsk's Jewish synagogue. It said that all Jews in the city had to register, warning that if they did not they would face a fine. Pushilin has denounced the leaflet as a hoax and a "complete lie". Its provenance remains a mystery.

Speaking to the Observer, Vladimir Markovich, Pushilin's close colleague, said the usurping government in Kiev didn't have the right to sign anything: "They are not legitimate." Ukraine's democratically elected parliament, at least, had voted in the new government. Even members of Viktor Yanukovych's Party of Regions had supported it. Had anyone actually voted for him? "No, but local people from my area back me."

Markovich described himself as the "republic's" speaker. He said his activists had barricaded the building with tyres and razorwire because "fascists" might storm their camp at any moment. "We have no weapons, we've never had them," he said. The protesters would continue their sit-and-sleep-in until a referendum was held on the region's future status, he said. The separatists want this by 11 May.

With the Geneva agreement already dead, two scenarios were now likely, according to Igor Todorov, a professor at Donetsk's university. The first was that Russia would annex the east of Ukraine, as it did last month with Crimea. The second was that Moscow would install a puppet regime analogous to the one in Trans-Dniester, the breakaway Moldovan region next to western Ukraine, he said. "The Kremlin will decide at the last minute."

Certainly Russia is treating the "Donbass People's Republic" as a dignified government-in-waiting. The separatists make no secret of wanting to join Moscow. In the lobby of the occupied building is a large map of Donbass, with "Russia" scrawled on it.

The US, EU and Kiev say there is overwhelming proof that the Kremlin is co-ordinating the armed uprising using undercover soldiers and FSB agents. Moscow denies this.

Todorov – a supporter of Ukrainian statehood – said he was deeply pessimistic about his country's future. He said he doubted presidential elections due to be held on 25 May would take place, at least not in the east. And in Kiev, he suggested, there was a growing feeling that Ukraine would be better off dumping its troublesome eastern provinces and creating a modern European country without them.

Last week, meanwhile, the Russian media reported that Yanukovych was planning to return to Ukraine on Easter Sunday. He would reappear in his hometown of Donetsk, it said, citing Russian sources (traditionally, Yanukovych visits the grave of his mother Olga over Easter in nearby Yenakiyevo). Yanukovych's imminent resurrection seems unlikely. But it is possible the Kremlin may deploy him at some point. "I can see a scenario where Russia brings back Yanukovych and puts him on a tank in Kiev," Todorov said gloomily.

Guarding the foyer of the "republic" HQ, a volunteer called Andrei said Yanukovych still enjoyed some local support: "I don't see why he couldn't come back, if the people create a 'living corridor' for him." Andrei declined to give his surname, but said he was a 27-year-old security guard from the nearby town of Gorlovka. He had a weapon of sorts – a metallic baseball bat with the word "bat" written on it, and was wearing a flak-jacket. What were living conditions like inside the occupied building? "Well, it's not home, obviously. But we have food. And there's even a basic shower." Andrei was sitting with a young female doctor dispensing medicines. On the wall were black-and-white photographs of Soviet war veterans. Next to the bathrooms was a sign in pink highlighter which read: "Make provocateurs clean the toilets."

Wouldn't it be difficult to organise a referendum in a couple of weeks? "It's all in hand. Look at how quickly it happened in Crimea," Andrei pointed out. "We already have people on the ground, in towns and villages, preparing for it. We are getting ready for a return to autonomy. Russia is helping us."

The theme of Soviet pride is ubiquitous, with the separatists casting their battle against Kiev as a re-run of the second world war, of Moscow against the Nazis. One portrait on the wall is of Konstantin Simonov, the distinguished writer and Soviet war reporter. A cruder poster contrasts a row of Russian soldiers with a European gay pride rally. It asks bluntly: "In which parade would you want your son to take part?"

Outside, beneath a balcony of Russian and Donbass flags, a sound system pumped out a string of schmaltzy Russian disco numbers. The occupiers may have powerful friends in Moscow, but the crowds in front of the building have often been sparse in a city of a million people. There is overwhelming support in eastern Ukraine for greater autonomy from Kiev, as well as for Russian to be given the status of an official state language. According to an opinion poll in February, though, the separatists are in the minority – with only 26% in the east supporting union with Russia.

Underneath the Stalin flag, Akulov meanwhile said he wanted a federal republic: "I don't care if we end up with Kiev or Moscow. The main thing is we are on our own." Akulov said he was a lifetime member of the Communist party – "the USSR one, not today's one" – and a decorated retired miner, now aged 68. What had driven him to protest, he said, was the destruction of Soviet war memorials in the west of Ukraine.

"My father died very early. I was nine. He was injured several times while fighting in the Red Army. When they call Soviet troops occupiers I find that profoundly insulting." He disappeared into his red Communist party booth and returned with a notebook. He then read aloud a poem that was written to commemorate the 80,000 Soviet soldiers who died while storming Berlin in 1945 – a moving work addressed to young German women. "That's why we should win here," he said.

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 20 Apr 2014 04:13

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... e-china-us

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove

Nato's action plan in Ukraine is right out of Dr Strangelove
From China to Ukraine, the US is pursuing its longstanding ambition to dominate the Eurasian landmass
John Pilger
The Guardian, Thursday 17 April 2014 16.41 BST

Men wearing military fatigues in the eastern Ukrainian city of Kramatorsk
'What is certain is that Barack Obama’s rapacious coup in Ukraine has ignited a civil war and Vladimir Putin is being lured into a trap.' Photograph: Anatoliy Stepanov/AFP/Getty Images

I watched Dr Strangelove the other day. I have seen it perhaps a dozen times; it makes sense of senseless news. When Major TJ "King" Kong goes "toe to toe with the Rooskies" and flies his rogue B52 nuclear bomber to a target in Russia, it's left to General "Buck" Turgidson to reassure the president. Strike first, says the general, and "you got no more than 10-20 million killed, tops". President Merkin Muffley: "I will not go down in history as the greatest mass murderer since Adolf Hitler." General Turgidson: "Perhaps it might be better, Mr President, if you were more concerned with the American people than with your image in the history books."

The genius of Stanley Kubrick's film is that it accurately represents the cold war's lunacy and dangers. Most of the characters are based on real people and real maniacs. There is no equivalent to Strangelove today because popular culture is directed almost entirely at our interior lives, as if identity is the moral zeitgeist and true satire is redundant, yet the dangers are the same. The nuclear clock has remained at five minutes to midnight; the same false flags are hoisted above the same targets by the same "invisible government", as Edward Bernays, the inventor of public relations, described modern propaganda.

In 1964, the year Dr Strangelove was made, "the missile gap" was the false flag. To build more and bigger nuclear weapons and pursue an undeclared policy of domination, President John F Kennedy approved the CIA's propaganda that the Soviet Union was well ahead of the US in the production of intercontinental ballistic missiles. This filled front pages as the "Russian threat". In fact, the Americans were so far ahead in production of the missiles, the Russians never approached them. The cold war was based largely on this lie.
Strategic nuclear missiles Cold War National Museum of the US Air Force Strategic nuclear missiles from the cold war. Photograph: Alamy

Since the collapse of the Soviet Union, the US has ringed Russia with military bases, nuclear warplanes and missiles as part of its Nato enlargement project. Reneging on the Reagan administration's promise to the Soviet president Mikhail Gorbachev in 1990 that Nato would not expand "one inch to the east", Nato has all but taken over eastern Europe. In the former Soviet Caucasus, Nato's military build-up is the most extensive since the second world war.

In February, the US mounted one of its proxy "colour" coups against the elected government of Ukraine; the shock troops were fascists. For the first time since 1945, a pro-Nazi, openly antisemitic party controls key areas of state power in a European capital. No western European leader has condemned this revival of fascism on the border of Russia. Some 30 million Russians died in the invasion of their country by Hitler's Nazis, who were supported by the infamous Ukrainian Insurgent Army (the UPA) which was responsible for numerous Jewish and Polish massacres. The Organisation of Ukrainian Nationalists, of which the UPA was the military wing, inspires today's Svoboda party.

Since Washington's putsch in Kiev – and Moscow's inevitable response in Russian Crimea to protect its Black Sea fleet – the provocation and isolation of Russia have been inverted in the news to the "Russian threat". This is fossilised propaganda. The US air force general who runs Nato forces in Europe – General Philip Breedlove, no less – claimed more than two weeks ago to have pictures showing 40,000 Russian troops "massing" on the border with Ukraine. So did Colin Powell claim to have pictures proving there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. What is certain is that Barack Obama's rapacious, reckless coup in Ukraine has ignited a civil war and Vladimir Putin is being lured into a trap.

Following a 13-year rampage that began in stricken Afghanistan well after Osama bin Laden had fled, then destroyed Iraq beneath a false flag, invented a "nuclear rogue" in Iran, dispatched Libya to a Hobbesian anarchy and backed jihadists in Syria, the US finally has a new cold war to supplement its worldwide campaign of murder and terror by drone.

A Nato membership action plan – straight from the war room of Dr Strangelove – is General Breedlove's gift to the new dictatorship in Ukraine. "Rapid Trident" will put US troops on Ukraine's Russian border and "Sea Breeze" will put US warships within sight of Russian ports. At the same time, Nato war games in eastern Europe are designed to intimidate Russia. Imagine the response if this madness was reversed and happened on the US's borders. Cue General Turgidson.

And there is China. On 23 April, Obama will begin a tour of Asia to promote his "pivot" to China. The aim is to convince his "allies" in the region, principally Japan, to rearm and prepare for the possibility of war with China. By 2020, almost two-thirds of all US naval forces in the world will be transferred to the Asia-Pacific area. This is the greatest military concentration in that vast region since the second world war.

In an arc extending from Australia to Japan, China will face US missiles and nuclear-armed bombers. A strategic naval base is being built on the Korean island of Jeju, less than 400 miles from Shanghai and the industrial heartland of the only country whose economic power is likely to surpass that of the US. Obama's "pivot" is designed to undermine China's influence in its region. It is as if a world war has begun by other means.

This is not a Dr Strangelove fantasy. Obama's defence secretary, Charles "Chuck" Hagel, was in Beijing last week to deliver a warning that China, like Russia, could face isolation and war if it did not bow to US demands. He compared the annexation of Crimea to China's complex territorial dispute with Japan over uninhabited islands in the East China Sea. "You cannot go around the world," said Hagel with a straight face, "and violate the sovereignty of nations by force, coercion or intimidation." As for America's massive movement of naval forces and nuclear weapons to Asia, that is "a sign of the humanitarian assistance the US military can provide".

Obama is seeking a bigger budget for nuclear weapons than the historical peak during the cold war, the era of Dr Strangelove. The US is pursuing its longstanding ambition to dominate the Eurasian landmass, stretching from China to Europe: a "manifest destiny" made right by might.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 20 Apr 2014 15:03

Russian state TV says five killed in east Ukraine clash

http://www.firstpost.com/world/russian- ... 88303.html

REUTERS - Russian state television reported on Sunday that five people were killed when gunmen attacked a checkpoint manned by pro-Russian separatists near the eastern Ukrainian city of Slaviansk.

Reuters was not immediately able to verify the report.

The state-run Rossiya 24 news station, citing its correspondent in Slaviansk, said three of the dead were with the pro-Russian separatists who control Slaviansk, and the other two were from the group that attacked their checkpoint.