LCA Tejas: News and Discussions

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 May 2015 02:19

The "trisonic" for 450 crores shows the mentality. They could build 10 good-sized facilities around the country and bring up a whole gen of experienced ppl for that $$, AND meet the testing needs much better with parallel operations instead of the serial operation ofone prima donna fajility. Next Rafale deal may have 600 crores for "polysonic".
Monitoring equipment is the other ripoff. No, there is nothing there that cannot be sourced desh-side. Bees saal pehle there were hardly any Class IV lasers in India, but that is not the case now - that problem was, shall v say, fixed. So now they go waste money on instrumentation, which is basically electronic components slapped together with pretty basic software. I can say that with assurance because bunch of us yaks/yak-herders one cold winter in the Mongolian steppe back in the 80s did exactly that - write everything from assembly code to high-level graphics, with research-grade bias corrections etc that left the most 'advanced' commercial stuff far behind, with their (then) $250K price tags. The ppl who did this know what I am saying, some have since built other small things such as ramjet AA mijjiles and ABM systems and a few other things in desh, also from scratch.

But wind tunnels is where ADA has really fallen on their faces. 90% of testing requirement for an LCA type aircraft is low speed with maneuvers/ stability parameter extraction, drag reduction, control law derivation etc, which can be done dirt-cheap in universities compared to the other stuff. I think IITK now has a fairly large low speed tunnel with oh-so-sophisticated instrumentation, but what I see coming out of there in terms of publications/theses are ... no comment. Transonic is hardest and yes, requires significant investment (gas dynamics funda: area is smallest at Mach 1, and waves bounce off walls and come back and hit model because Mach angle is ~ 90_ degrees) , but with all the expertise at IISC, what is the need to import gyan for that or supersonic? Waaaaay back, they had a highly advanced, variable-wall supersonic tunnel. Basically, this is laziness, no other word for it, and it makes me very depressed. The instrumentation excuse does not wash.

Bottom line: when India was a famine nation, Indians seemed to be a lot more dedicated and smarter. Today they are just rich and indolent. Like Rome b4 the barbarians arrived.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 May 2015 03:21

well as we discussed before, the people who do everything from scratch are spread thin. there are many programs, including dysfunctional ones eg kaveri, which need to be fixed. if a Boeing comes and says we will give you state of the art wind tunnel and babus sign off, that is a problem solved.

there has been no significant incremental manpower addition to defence R&D for a decade now under prior govt. budgets have been declining year on year for the past decade considering inflation, the amount that goes for mission mode programs.

right now there is no time left for "science projects", everything needs to be done asap so anything available OTS will be used.

so if offset provisions say that boeing is ready to provide a wind tunnel & boeing costs it at rs 400 crores and says that's what they budget for it, and GOI says go ahead, that's that. that means approvals done and no reason to run around with files on more such stuff.

i dont get exactly how ADA fell flat on their faces on wind tunnels. from what I understand, the issue has been time facility is available. there is one suitable for LCA and all the other mijjile stuff at NAL. there is x amount of times its available. when its not, the other teams have to go hunting. its suboptimal. no funding for any new wind tunnels either (NAL comes under CSIR and their focus is not just on aerospace).

L&T makes wind tunnels too. they did or were to do one for ISRO. they do have an extensive tieup.
http://www.bsxindia.com/AirCmde%28Retd%29.pdf

so in short, this is usual money allocation, babu decision issue as versus laziness smart, indolence or what have you. all that, sorry to be blunt, just sounds like the kind of stuff people say to make themselves/their time sound better than it actually was - "in my time it was like this, in my time, it was that..."

the people today are just as smart/smarter than my generation was, and likely they are smarter/harder in many respects than their so called predecessors two decades or three decades back. one can argue that things haven't really improved in terms of innovation, we continue to ape the west etc. but the indian economy is running and affording tens of thousands of gizmos purely on the basis of the forex the kids today bring in, working all night.

if the famine nation era guys were so smart and successful, why exactly is India the state it is in today? firmly straddling a thin line between third world despair and first world islands of excellence? either they skedaddled, or they flopped at whatever it is they thought they would do. i don't blame the politicians alone. our so called elite intellectual class and everyone let the dynasty loot this country dry. they take equal if not more blame. they created a dysfunctional system where learning by rote, ji huzoor was A-ok, where the economy never achieved its potential.

one can't have it both ways. in fact, take a look at the current state across the board and a lot of the blame squarely falls on the shoulders of the "famine nation" era eggsperts, who were too busy climbing the career ladder and sticking to social-ism or this ism or that ism or whatever ism the manniya mantri ji espoused and completely let the nation down. what happened to some of the worthies who launched unrealistic programs, budgeted peanuts and let their subordinates take the flack? they skedaddled.

our big problem is structural and get things done quick mentality where analysis and planning takes a hike. i base this admittedly subjective evaluation on seeing my gen and below/above where far too many people are in the do things per x way, not really thinking on the why. in contrast, many folks abroad take the time to think what they are doing and why. not just do things and call it done. india being an underserved market also means pressure on any service provider is 1000x of the west, so time available for personal growth/understanding is limited etc. etc.

anyways ramble apart, in short, in a top down system, if the babus say offsets allow boeing to give you the wind tunnel, take it, they will. its whatever is available and they will. better than moving 1000 files asking for some other proposal.

as far as making our own wind tunnels go - the cost is rs 6 crores but boeing will budget per its standards.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 468164.cms

as regards "rich" - india barely spends a tenth of what the US (or even europe) do on basic infra before big programs. i am yet to see any rich program funded western style with a blank check. perhaps the BMD program comes close.

these are the budgeted programs (thanks vaibhav)

Project Title Cost ( Rs. in Cr)
1. Medium Altitude Long Endurance (MALE) Unmanned Aerial Vehicle 1540.74
2. Quick Reaction Surface to Air Missile (QR-SAM) 476.43
3. Active Electronically Scanned Array Radar (AESAR) for LCA (Uttam) 459.65
4. Satellite based Electronic Intelligence (ELINT) Payload “Kautilya” 432.80
5. Electronic Warfare System for Ships, Aircraft and Helicopters for Navy “Samudrika” 342.29
6. Post Development Support of Airborne Early Waning and Control (AEW&C) System 314.32
7. Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite for Jaguar Upgrade 268.27
8. Development of 155/52 Towed Artillery Gun system (ATAGS) 247.90
9. Dornier based Flying Test Beds (Fixed wing, Rotary wing) 173.48
10. Development of Submarine Periscope 163.77
11. Augmentation of Environmental Test Facility for Warheads and Electronics Systems 121.17
12. Advanced Light Weight Towed Array Sonar (ALTAS) 114.42
13. Girishakti 56.80
14. Smart Anti-Airfield Weapon (SAAW) 56.58
15. Prahaar for PGAD 56.30

if we take a hard look at the numbers. 100 crores for a state of the art sonar or thats the plan. a SAM system budgeted at 4 times that. that's $80 mn. less than half the program acquisition cost of a rafale. or a single rafale if the unit cost was $100mn. 300 crores for a multi family EW system to be deployed across all naval ships and platforms. $50mn. even if the actual program costs were 3x of the above, they'd be a steal. this is frugal engineering all the way.

and its that way, because that's how much GOI gives.
our capex on imports on the other hand is obscene and remains so because they constitute a nice pipeline to the pockets of those who matter (nobody questions defence allocation) and second, because we are unwilling to invest in any infra locally.

has any hard headed look been taken at how much GTRE spends each time it carts its scientific staff to gromov to stuff the kaveri into an Il-76 and see the results? time and again. who is there to verify each and every thing the russians tell us? there will be clearly times when we are overdependent on them. china just bought its own flight test bed.

US tests its radars on a bunch of airborne platforms. IIRC the F-22 radar was on a bizjet with the radome at front. india just purchased its first DO-228 for radar work (is it even optimal to test fast moving fighter radars? hardly) but its what we have. so this penny wise pound foolish system will continue to bleed us.

in a country which doesn't even think twice about procuring aircraft carriers whose aircraft don't work, which spends tens of thousands of crores on imports (which then wait for spares), putting money in wind tunnels etc is much better.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 May 2015 05:27

deejay thanks for the straight scoop. So the problem is elsewhere.

In upper management.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 18 May 2015 06:00

Karan: The basic question is how a bunch of people who can't figure out how to design and build a wind tunnel (a big tube w/ a blower) is going to design and build modern airplanes. You say that the 'instrumentation' of wind tunnels poses a big issue. Don't airplanes have 'instrumentation' to measure flight speed, accelerations, vibration, pressures, structural deflections? Read the pages and pages before this, and see all the people making grandiose pronouncements about fabulously sophisticated machinery and electronic instrumentation and software and control systems. If they can develop those (or have they any real intention of doing that instead of just shopping from glossy catalogs?) why can't they develop instrumentation for wind tunnels to develop and refine airplanes?

For instance, the fans that power many wind tunnels are either old airplane props or mine shaft exhaust fans - no big deal. The motors are just industrial electric motors - no weight restriction. The control panel has blower hours monitored by gauges from ancient airplanes. The speed measurement is a Pitot-static tube - cheaper than aircraft instrumentation. The servos to run different controls are from old airplanes - if they can scavenge the 400 Hz power supplies. The atmospheric condition measurement uses aircraft instruments. Wherever possible, stuff is scrounged from beat-up aircraft to save costs and get things done to the same accuracy needed for airplanes.

ADA stands for "Aeronautical Development Authority"? Who else in India is responsible for planning ahead to have wind tunnels in the nation? Maybe they do - plan beautifully to have wind tunnel tests in the south of France, Holland, Germany, Russia, Korea, Japan, Australia ....... Add up the costs of those phoren boondoggles for Ajeet and Kiran and HS748 and HF-24 and LCA and MRCA testing and tell me that India is not rich? They sure spend like India is ... They don't think of testing requirements until an aircraft program is well underway, which means there is no seriousness about continuity of planning for future programs.

They are just going through the motions.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 May 2015 06:25

For a nation to become a serious power rather than a ROTFL power there has to be close cooperation between military and industry and I will stick to military aviation here. The IAF brass cannot take the attitude that they are top notch flyers and fighters and it is the "other persons job" to give them the best - i.e they don't care who as long as they get the best. The knight couldn't care less who makes his saddle and his sword as long as he gets the best and he can prove his mettle. On the other hand the aircraft industry is, like the armed forces also a branch of government and if there is one thing that every Indian agrees on uniformly and across the board - it is that there is some honour left in the armed forces but the government and government run organizations are often lazy, inefficient corrupt,uncaring and insensitive.

Even to this day (2015) this is palpable in some government offices. You approach 10 different desks for one job and even that is not done properly as people take time off for festival, restricted holiday, another festival, government holiday, bandh, dharna, sick leave, come tomorrow etc. You may have no electricity in your home or a fallen tree may have blocked your access road but the government office does not give a piece of shit - the employees are all employed for life no matter what happens to you. It is impossible for me to believe that this culture does not extend to the work force in defence PSUs. A man working on a jet engine or an aircraft has to have a sense of deep deep empathy and involvement that a man's life and indirectly the country's security is connected with his job, Instead the government job gives you the feeling that your life is made. Your caste and bribe may have got you the job. Time and seniority will get you salary increments and promotions, It is your right to take time off for regular holidays like Dussehra and Diwali and for restricted holidays like Ambedkar Jayanti, Gandhi Jayanti, Buddha Jayanti Id ul Zuha. If this engine has to be made ready by tomorrow - sorry - tomorrow is Valmiki Jayanti, the day after is second saturday, then sunday, Monday I am taking casual leave so the fukin engine and the job it needs can wait or it can be done by the fitter who is currently on annual leave for his daughter's wedding. At the end of a life like this I get pension as well. If your boss is an arse hole who has climbed the ladder just like you, by chamchagiri, fake certificate, caste certificate, recommendation etc - you are the last person who should be involved in a responsible job on which a pilot will depend for his life.

These Augean stables need to be cleaned up.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 18 May 2015 06:37

Someone mentioned the quality of workmanship in a Mahindra car. I am reminded of an observation from VS Naipaul from the 1950s or 60s. He is living in a luxury hotel where everything appears good on the surface - but the details show up things like misaligned taps. Naipaul has to call for someone to set the tap right and upon meeting him realizes that the man who fixes the tap does not have a tap at home and has no idea of what it means to have a tap and what sort of alignment or ease of use, non leakiness etc that a tap should have. Workmanship in many government organizations - awarded on the basis of factors other than skill lead to workers who are as incompetent as this but they think they are good because the fact they have the job is proof of their competence. Imagine workers working on planes and engines when many of them will never ever fly even on a trip within India. In the past. most did not even have a scooter - they were transported on PSU buses.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 18 May 2015 08:34

UBji,

It is not the low speed tunnels we are talking about. Designing a low speed tunnel would be an undergrad project and the tunnel can be fabricated using wood and plywood. It is the supersonic/transonic/hypersonic tunnels I had in mind. It needs investment and considerable design work. Ofcourse even the supersonic tunnel can be a project for a private engg college.

I agree the scientific community should have taken up the design fabrication and installation of these test facilities..Instead of planning in advance, they look around for short term solutions. Even if there is paucity of funds and manpower, design the thing on paper and putting up to the babus for approval would have been better. But who knows..they may have already done all these and more. Top scientist have lamented about the lack of test facilities as one of the impediments for satisfactory progress in many projects. There are too many players and we may never know the truth.

Skill development is sorely lacking in India. People refuse to gain hands on experience by really getting involved. Like one of my batch mates famously stated.."Holding a spanner and dirtying your boiler suit is un-afsar like". Some of the mess secretaries in warships ban entry of engineers in boiler suits, even for a quick bite. Aping Goras..? I dont know.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 18 May 2015 08:47

in the old RN battleships they had teenage boys covered in coal dust to do the dirty work of feeding the boilers.

the officers on the upper deck did command n control only.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 May 2015 12:04

UlanBatori wrote:Karan: The basic question is how a bunch of people who can't figure out how to design and build a wind tunnel (a big tube w/ a blower) is going to design and build modern airplanes. You say that the 'instrumentation' of wind tunnels poses a big issue. Don't airplanes have 'instrumentation' to measure flight speed, accelerations, vibration, pressures, structural deflections? Read the pages and pages before this, and see all the people making grandiose pronouncements about fabulously sophisticated machinery and electronic instrumentation and software and control systems. If they can develop those (or have they any real intention of doing that instead of just shopping from glossy catalogs?) why can't they develop instrumentation for wind tunnels to develop and refine airplanes?

Instrumentation poses a challenge because under all sorts of denial regimes every other sensor and HPC was banned, so all sorts of jugaad was done to counter that. If a complete package + support comes (with political clearance), then its job done because ADA doesn't need to involve itself with it. Boeing or whosoever might even run it locally as a Govt owned Company run facility. Of course data security is an issue, so perhaps local contractors.

Again, is it ADA's job to now build wind tunnels to make the LCA? Where does this end? As things stand, ADA is hard pressed to put up with ever changing IAF demands for this widget on that plane. Herding DPSU cats to deliver airframes on time. Shepherding pvt sector to supply components when they haven't even heard of aerospace certification (but are enthusiastic and will get the job done but ADA folks will have to be deputed)... building wind tunnels added on top of all this..

PS: ADA doesn't run or own the wind tunnel at NAL. That's NAL's job. NAL incidentally also does the aerodynamics along with ADA & also handles the Flight Controls. The National Control Law team is owned by & run by NAL for ADA. The hardware is from ADE and the test rigs are at ADA, ADE and HAL (Iron Bird).

For instance, the fans that power many wind tunnels are either old airplane props or mine shaft exhaust fans - no big deal. The motors are just industrial electric motors - no weight restriction. The control panel has blower hours monitored by gauges from ancient airplanes. The speed measurement is a Pitot-static tube - cheaper than aircraft instrumentation. The servos to run different controls are from old airplanes - if they can scavenge the 400 Hz power supplies. The atmospheric condition measurement uses aircraft instruments. Wherever possible, stuff is scrounged from beat-up aircraft to save costs and get things done to the same accuracy needed for airplanes.

This is fine, but they are clearly looking beyond just basic stuff to get whatever they can which is cutting edge bla-di-bla via Boeing-Shoeing, as to what it is, test and simulation stuff was mentioned eons back, your guess better than mine on whether that's actually worth the inflated prices it's sold at.. desi wind tunnels exist and are being funded. The Boeing one is via offsets and hence alag se.

ADA stands for "Aeronautical Development Authority"? Who else in India is responsible for planning ahead to have wind tunnels in the nation?

Misunfortunately, that is not ADA's role.

ADA is not responsible for wind tunnels in India or otherwise. Its merely, onlee responsible for one and only one thing. The LCA. Its only funded for that. Aero work in India is split between ADA and its parent org (DRDO for all mijjiles), NAL (comes under CSIR), HAL (to assemble furren fighters and torque the screws & also make the LCA), ISRO. In recent years we have been hearing the AMCA and IUSUAV so they too come under the ADA. But again programs, not national policy.

The lack of overall planning and coordination thanks to disparate decision making has been a long standing issue hence the long standing call for a National Aeronautics Commission which can directly report to the Cabinet/PMO/work with Service Chiefs etc and will also have decision making power.

Right now, 90% of the work is being led by DRDO, ISRO and then NAL via former two agency's budgets - remember NAL is part of CSIR so its a lab in the wider CSIR framework and aero stuff is just one of the things they do. CSIR works on everything under the sun.

So since ADA onlee handles LCA (and AMCA, IUSUAV) it can ask money from DRDO for infrastructure for those programs - theoretically. However, DRDO guys when they sit down and budget (and this is where the crux of the issue is), they see budget for wind tunnels (even at Rs 6 crore a pop>greater than new test bed at another lab), they may shoot down the proposal because their overall budget is tight and they have to balance out these programs versus mission mode ones.

So its basically what happens when there is no one agency to push for all this infra across the board and individual agencies have to fund it from program budgets.

That's a) time consuming and inefficient b) bloats program budgets and makes them look bigger and bigger c) service folks accuse R&D folks of empire building "We asked them to make planes, they are making new buildings onlee"..

Maybe they do - plan beautifully to have wind tunnel tests in the south of France, Holland, Germany, Russia, Korea, Japan, Australia ....... Add up the costs of those phoren boondoggles for Ajeet and Kiran and HS748 and HF-24 and LCA and MRCA testing and tell me that India is not rich? They sure spend like India is ... They don't think of testing requirements until an aircraft program is well underway, which means there is no seriousness about continuity of planning for future programs.

They are just going through the motions.

See above.

India spends like a rich country because vested interests like it that way.

Building up local infrastructure has been a long standing demand and will remain one in many areas.

Wind Tunnels are still lower end of the spectrum. The issue is 100x more serious in terms of sensors and semiconductors - we are modernizing infra but nowhere at the rate that is required.

The new Govt has approved (on paper) a national mission for making seekers locally. Lets see how that turns out (ie when it actually takes off with fin min clearances).

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 18 May 2015 12:15

shiv wrote:For a nation to become a serious power rather than a ROTFL power there has to be close cooperation between military and industry and I will stick to military aviation here. The IAF brass cannot take the attitude that they are top notch flyers and fighters and it is the "other persons job" to give them the best - i.e they don't care who as long as they get the best. The knight couldn't care less who makes his saddle and his sword as long as he gets the best and he can prove his mettle. On the other hand the aircraft industry is, like the armed forces also a branch of government and if there is one thing that every Indian agrees on uniformly and across the board - it is that there is some honour left in the armed forces but the government and government run organizations are often lazy, inefficient corrupt,uncaring and insensitive.

Even to this day (2015) this is palpable in some government offices. You approach 10 different desks for one job and even that is not done properly as people take time off for festival, restricted holiday, another festival, government holiday, bandh, dharna, sick leave, come tomorrow etc. You may have no electricity in your home or a fallen tree may have blocked your access road but the government office does not give a piece of shit - the employees are all employed for life no matter what happens to you.

I sense close interaction with BSNL offices has occurred for these facts to be catalogued.

It is impossible for me to believe that this culture does not extend to the work force in defence PSUs. A man working on a jet engine or an aircraft has to have a sense of deep deep empathy and involvement that a man's life and indirectly the country's security is connected with his job, Instead the government job gives you the feeling that your life is made. Your caste and bribe may have got you the job. Time and seniority will get you salary increments and promotions, It is your right to take time off for regular holidays like Dussehra and Diwali and for restricted holidays like Ambedkar Jayanti, Gandhi Jayanti, Buddha Jayanti Id ul Zuha. If this engine has to be made ready by tomorrow - sorry - tomorrow is Valmiki Jayanti, the day after is second saturday, then sunday, Monday I am taking casual leave so the fukin engine and the job it needs can wait or it can be done by the fitter who is currently on annual leave for his daughter's wedding. At the end of a life like this I get pension as well. If your boss is an arse hole who has climbed the ladder just like you, by chamchagiri, fake certificate, caste certificate, recommendation etc - you are the last person who should be involved in a responsible job on which a pilot will depend for his life.

These Augean stables need to be cleaned up.

True to a degree, but the issue is more there in DPSUs as versus R&D where the teams are smaller & the work more intense & org is under pressure to deliver. The former are - there is no pressure since one way or the other, they will make whatever armed forces want, under TOT or not.
However, if programs keep failing, then the lab is held in disrepute and everyone there will go nowhere fast. There are now imports available as well. So if you don't get your gizmo ready, then you lose that entire order so you have to fix things. The Navy is the only one which pretty much follows the Mk1, Mk model. IAF/IA don't (we all know the story with LCA, Arjun).. so there is pressure.
But with DPSUs it breaks down. The LUH is delayed, what does it matter to HAL (beyond some token fine) since they will make the Ka-226. The LCA is delayed, what does it matter to HAL, since they will make the MMRCA. This needs to be stopped and competitors created.

The only "exception" to this rule in R&D has been the engine program, since it was regarded as too big to fail and hence kept chugging along .. and there were no imports etc available to make viable alternatives. Now Ge engines, etc are there, and ADA has alternatives, I bet there will be more things that move even at GTRE. And even senior mgmt will have to wake up, because Kaveri's failure means end of engine development.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 May 2015 12:52

I think that "biggest" problem is that we have not allocated adequate funds for our labs and projects. Now if you compare the funds allocated over a period of 30 years in piece meal fashion to LCA Mk-1 four versions, Mk-2 two versions, Kaveri, Radar, HAL production line etc vis a vis the Indian GDP then the funds that should be given to AMCA should be 100,000-200,000 crores i.e. around USD 15-30 Billion but we are still thinking of "perhaps" allocating "only" around Rs 4,000 - 8,000 crores, while splurging on PAKFA & Rafale. Nangi Nahaegi kya, Neechodegi kya?

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 18 May 2015 12:54

abhik wrote:I don't see what IAF being run by fighter jocks(which airforce isn't?) has got to do with anything. Simple reason is that our political and military leadership lack strategic foresight.

I think that Political leadership and Babus lacked courage and conviction to allocate adequate amount of funds. Funds allocated for scam ridden CWG was Rs 100,000 crores equal to 15 year DRDO budget. Military has very limited role to play. Babus and Politicos just use the shoulders of military to shoot for imports. This year budget for DRDO, ISRO, BARC was all static, no increase, why?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 May 2015 16:29

First Tejas fighter squadron expected by 2017-18

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 18 May 2015 19:35

shiv wrote:For a nation to become a serious power rather than a ROTFL power there has to be close cooperation between military and industry and I will stick to military aviation here. The IAF brass cannot take the attitude that they are top notch flyers and fighters and it is the "other persons job" to give them the best - i.e they don't care who as long as they get the best. The knight couldn't care less who makes his saddle and his sword as long as he gets the best and he can prove his mettle. On the other hand the aircraft industry is, like the armed forces also a branch of government and if there is one thing that every Indian agrees on uniformly and across the board - it is that there is some honour left in the armed forces but the government and government run organizations are often lazy, inefficient corrupt,uncaring and insensitive.

Even to this day (2015) this is palpable in some government offices. You approach 10 different desks for one job and even that is not done properly as people take time off for festival, restricted holiday, another festival, government holiday, bandh, dharna, sick leave, come tomorrow etc. You may have no electricity in your home or a fallen tree may have blocked your access road but the government office does not give a piece of shit - the employees are all employed for life no matter what happens to you. It is impossible for me to believe that this culture does not extend to the work force in defence PSUs. A man working on a jet engine or an aircraft has to have a sense of deep deep empathy and involvement that a man's life and indirectly the country's security is connected with his job, Instead the government job gives you the feeling that your life is made. Your caste and bribe may have got you the job. Time and seniority will get you salary increments and promotions, It is your right to take time off for regular holidays like Dussehra and Diwali and for restricted holidays like Ambedkar Jayanti, Gandhi Jayanti, Buddha Jayanti Id ul Zuha. If this engine has to be made ready by tomorrow - sorry - tomorrow is Valmiki Jayanti, the day after is second saturday, then sunday, Monday I am taking casual leave so the fukin engine and the job it needs can wait or it can be done by the fitter who is currently on annual leave for his daughter's wedding. At the end of a life like this I get pension as well. If your boss is an arse hole who has climbed the ladder just like you, by chamchagiri, fake certificate, caste certificate, recommendation etc - you are the last person who should be involved in a responsible job on which a pilot will depend for his life.

These Augean stables need to be cleaned up.

shiv wrote:Imagine workers working on planes and engines when many of them will never ever fly even on a trip within India. In the past. most did not even have a scooter - they were transported on PSU buses.

It also depends on what was inculcated as a culture of an organization. There is a reason why Armed forces are kept at esteemed level, its because of the discipline, but it doesn't mean that same thing cannot be inculcated in other organizations too. The argument that since they travel by bus and never by aircraft would make HAL employees lazy in their work is a wrong deduction at the best

Sometimes you need a mentor to shape things, most important part of the story is that such a mentor has to come at an early stage of org development. ISRO is also an org under GOI, but it differs from other orgs in terms of discipline, partly due to its proximity to PM. I went to do my post graduate project work in VSSC. First day itself as other employees went to canteen, I followed them. But I was perplexed why they were running back from the canteen exactly at 10.15. It was because Controller of VSSC was coming to canteen. My father came to me and asked me to run to my office

I got the answer only that evening. The fixed time for canteen was "fixed" by none other than TN Seshan who was a Controller of VSSC and although Seshan left VSSC for better fields on New Delhi more than 15 years ago, but the same practice with discipline continues

Discipline is a culture, it has to be inculcated at an young age for an individual and also for an organization

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 May 2015 19:42

Austin wrote:First Tejas fighter squadron expected by 2017-18

First positive news on this depressing reality thread....

Has factual inaccuracies or plain lies in this report....

A report of the comptroller and auditor general (CAG) tabled in the just-concluded budget session of parliament said that due to the delay in the manufacture and supply of the LCA, the IAF forced force to take alternative and temporary measures such as upgrading its MiG-21s, MiG-29s, Jaguars, and Mirage aircraft at a cost of Rs 20,037 crore (over $3 billion) and revise the phasing out of the Soviet-era MiG-21s.

The upgrades were planned and would have happened anyway. And hardly a portion of that upgrade money was spent to build infrastructure.

MOD did not fund the LCA infrastructure on one hand while the IAF was making do with obsolete aircraft.
Cant blame that on LCA development!!!!

It was UPA CBM to US that IAF strike potential will be marginalized to prevent any Cold/Warm start.

And IAF chiefs were a willing partner by participating in Augusta helicopter purchase scams, getting Ambassador posts etc.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 May 2015 19:50

KaranM and Shiv, Maybe time to start an "Understanding Institutional culture in Indian military" thread?
Can x-post the more important posts from here and continue the discussion.

symontk · Post by **symontk** » 18 May 2015 20:09

ramana wrote:KaranM and Shiv, Maybe time to start an "Understanding Institutional culture in Indian military" thread?
Can x-post the more important posts from here and continue the discussion.

Thanks and I get the drift, sorry for the OT, please carry on, no disruptions from me

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 May 2015 22:12

No its not a drift. Serious time & need for that thread.

Cosmo_R · Post by **Cosmo_R** » 19 May 2015 01:53

symontk wrote:
Discipline is a culture, it has to be inculcated at an young age for an individual and also for an organization

Discipline comes from being confident that competence, hard work and initiative will get you promoted and that slacking off will get you fired.

PSUs with few exceptions, have a horrible work ethos and the environment ensures that you can get fired for doing something right.

The nationalized banks are a horror story unto themselves. It took high level intervention at the MD level to enable me to close a Canara Bank account that had Rs. 5,000 in it.

The private sector may not have the 'experience' in defense that PSUs have but they know that time is money and that you have to get the quality product out the door. It's their money. In PSUs, it's your money.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 19 May 2015 12:38

Induction of LCA

http://pib.nic.in/newsite/pmreleases.aspx?mincode=33

The First Series Production Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas has been handed over to Chief of Air Staff by Raksha Mantri on 17th January 2015.

The following are some of the reasons for delay in completion of LCA project:

• Ab-initio development of the state-of-the-art technologies.

• Non-availability of trained / skilled manpower in the country.

• Non-availability of infrastructure / test facilities in the country.

• Unanticipated technical / technological complexities faced in structural design.

• Non-availability of critical components / equipment / materials and denial of technologies by the technologically advanced countries.

• Enhanced User’s requirements or change in specifications during development.

• Increase in the scope of work.

• Inadequate production facility at HAL.

Subsequent to achieving Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) status on 20th December 2013, Tejas series production has commenced. The first Squadron of 20 IOC standard aircraft is expected to be delivered by 2017-18. Efforts are underway to enhance the production capability.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri Manohar Parrikar in a written reply to Shri Pankaj Bora in Rajya Sabha today.

DM/NAMPI/RAJ

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 19 May 2015 15:03

What we need is only creation of a good production capability and really big order. Both require political commitment. Hope MP and NM show that.

srai · Post by **srai** » 19 May 2015 18:15

Where art thou indigenization lobbyists in the halls of Sansad Bhavan?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 May 2015 18:46

The LCA will be made in large numbers. You can be sure of that. Wait for a few months before the DMIC makes this announcement.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 20 May 2015 09:54

CAG report overlooks Tejas LCA’s many triumphs

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 20 May 2015 17:16

Austin wrote:CAG report overlooks Tejas LCA’s many triumphs

Hardly surprising.

To expect Auditors to understand a complex project like LCA is expecting me to understand Rocket science.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2015 18:41

Austin wrote:CAG report overlooks Tejas LCA’s many triumphs

Pretty good takedown of the CAG report on LCA. If Col sahib had to do it could mean the rumors of CAG report being biased could have modicum of truth.

OTH CAG peddling myths could be rice bowl issue for defence journalists!

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 20 May 2015 18:46

UlanBatori wrote: They get mentored by some of the Very Top in India, among others. How do I know? Because I've been roped in to answer their questions on a short fuse. Indo-Mongolian Peace and CoOperation. Well.. I don't know about Peace: they went all sullen when I told them that certain approaches had certain minor flaws, like a half dozen zeros missing. But that is what I mean by getting objective people involved, who will say what is true and not worry about the Consequences.

Dear Mr Ulanbatori,

Have been following your posts for a bit and this was something interesting that you have mentioned.

I'm a recent alumnus of the IIChai located in Prime Minister Modi's constituency, and I did some more advanced work at Chaawal University in the Lone Star state. This is in MatSci.

Anyways, I'm getting together a large bunch of alumni of my university to mentor existing institute projects and would like your guidance on some projects that are related to materials for aerospace.

May I get in touch with you ?

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2015 18:53

MB, Take it in GDF.

SanjayC · Post by **SanjayC** » 20 May 2015 18:58

Ajay Shukla having a cat fight with Suhel Seth, alleging that Seth is an agent of Dassault.

https://twitter.com/ajaishukla/status/6 ... 4335873025

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 May 2015 19:08

SanjayC wrote:Ajay Shukla having a cat fight with Suhel Seth, alleging that Seth is an agent of Dassault.

https://twitter.com/ajaishukla/status/6 ... 4335873025

Need to promote such fights so all the beans spill out.

UlanBatori · Post by **UlanBatori** » 20 May 2015 19:25

Trying to stay off Violence Forum because I am such a peace-loving person so pls excuse delay in desponding. MBji, sure, but see ramana's advice. Glad to chit-chat, reality may dampen your enthusiasm a bit.

Karan, shiv and everyone: would u say that a Technology Business Council would be a good idea here? The thinking of

This (everything except LCA) is outside ADA's charter

encapsulates the fragmentation issue.
An equivalent would be for the US Air Force Special Project Office (SPO) to say:

We have no mandate to do anything except learn to fly present planes and fight.

as they ask BO to place orders for shiny F-17 Thundaars to replace the aging F-16 fleet. Instead they pay a couple of people to run a tiny office stuck inside a Navy base on the Potomac, to put out Broad Agency Announcements (BAA to the goat-o-philics here), receive and read and stamp proposals and send them out to review, decide which ones to fund, and let various yak-herders and yaks in various pastures worry about how to get the technology developed. Some ppl here might be interested to hear that a yak-herder whom I know, did a literature survey as his first job bak in the 1980s - to support proposals related to something with Internal Store Carriage, essential for what became Stealth and also what was then called the "A-STOVL" - no relation of course to any current project as certified by the experts on those. THAT is the nature of the planning-development lead time

The solution is for ADA, GTRE etc to NURTURE, not CONTROL, everything that they would like to see done. One solution is a neutral chai-biscoot organization where ADA, GTRE, NAL, HAL, ISRO, DRDO, other PSUs, Academics, Mantris, Babus, Jarnails, Admirals, can all come and chit-chat with interested companies big and small, and NETWORK. If this sounds like a Chamber of Commerce chai-biscoot aimed at aerospace, well, it is, and it may be done as part of a larger Indo-xxx Chamber of Commerce. Anyone interested in knowing more? Please shift to GDF.

member_20292 · Post by **member_20292** » 20 May 2015 19:49

UBji, Ramanaji et al

Here is the thread in GD.

Let's do it!

http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... =24&t=7027

srin · Post by **srin** » 20 May 2015 20:01

SanjayC wrote:Ajay Shukla having a cat fight with Suhel Seth, alleging that Seth is an agent of Dassault.

https://twitter.com/ajaishukla/status/6 ... 4335873025

Pot meet Kettle.
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.in/2011/12/v ... s-say.html

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2015 20:09

ramana wrote:
SanjayC wrote:Ajay Shukla having a cat fight with Suhel Seth, alleging that Seth is an agent of Dassault.

https://twitter.com/ajaishukla/status/6 ... 4335873025

Need to promote such fights so all the beans spill out.

My thoughts exactly.
Apparently per Lutyens Masala - Shukla is pro-Gripen. He is also close to Coup-ta whose MOD contacts landed him a lot of inside info during UPA time. Other guys in Coupta-s circle are Shishir Gupta and that obnoxious Pubby.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 20 May 2015 20:35

Huh wut ??? Suhel Seth, Defence Journo ??? WTF is happening to the world !!!!

member_22733 · Post by **member_22733** » 20 May 2015 20:41

There is money involved.

Karan M · Post by **Karan M** » 20 May 2015 20:42

Sagar G wrote:Huh wut ??? Suhel Seth, Defence Journo ??? WTF is happening to the world !!!!

If Rajat Pandit and Manu Pubby can be defence journos, a Suhel Seth can dip his nose in as well..

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 20 May 2015 20:57

Karan M wrote:If Rajat Pandit and Manu Pubby can be defence journos, a Suhel Seth can dip his nose in as well..

Atleast those two have been presstituting w.r.t. defence for years !!! When the hell did Suhel Seth write anything about defence ???

Is he the new evolution of Indian presstitutes ???

The "Universal Indian Presstitute" - A presstitute who will write articles about anything and everything under the roof posing as an eggspurt provided he/she gets his/her monehh.

vaibhav.n · Post by **vaibhav.n** » 20 May 2015 21:02

LoL......Through all these years have always wondered how Sucklaw managed to keep his 'flamboyant' cavalry side quiet in the civvie street....This man is one sly operator. They used to call him ''Sweet Knife''........

Karan,

Did LutyensMasala mention Gripen and Sucklaw??...Cnt locate the tweets

deejay · Post by **deejay** » 20 May 2015 21:49

^^^ I think the term used by Lutyens Masala was Blonde Fighter (Blonde being Swede)