Indian Autos Thread

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 19 May 2010 07:09

Nayak wrote:dont you drive a fancy fiesta dileep-cheta? flash the high beams at the maroons, if i am not wrong, fiesta headligts are quite powerful.

Well, I do that often, but the moron often doesn't realize what is the problem. Yes, the lights are darn powerful, and I always keep the lamps leveled properly, and drive on low beam only.

vina · Post by **vina** » 19 May 2010 10:07

oh learned one, compass is never wrong. The problem is not the colour but the brochure. Upgrade to a lightly used accord (the 4 cylinder one) instead...you would end up paying less than a brand new civic while getting a substantially more/better car.

. Absolutely perfect answer. Couldn't agree with you more.

Nayak · Post by **Nayak** » 19 May 2010 11:15

I come back home at around 3:00 AM, the problem on the drive back are the call-center cabs with sleepy drivers and high beams on narrow roads. There is a particular stretch of road where there are hardly enough safe gap for two cars to pass by and I get daily blinded by these idiots.

Cheap chinese HID kits are available for 2K and combined with blue/white headlights, it really blinds me. I am planning to upgrade to Philips 100 kit and give a taste of blindness to these buggers.

Jaeger · Post by **Jaeger** » 19 May 2010 12:23

It's a real pain dealing with the high-beam wallahs. Am considering mounting one of these to solve all problems:
http://www.kongsberg.com/en/KPS/Product ... ation.aspx

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 20 May 2010 07:14

Singha wrote:http://www.autosec.org/pubs/cars-oakland2010.pdf

security of onboard control systems in consumer vehicles.

Good paper though one part about requiring "only 1.5 days full access" to hack a vehicle is a bit paki - If I have that much time with complete access to the vehicle I will just replace the ECU without needing any fancy hack. The main thing this paper brings out is:
(1) Some car manufacturers are not rigorous about following the established security standards. This is the main path of exploitation the authors used.
(2) Something like TPC needs to be implemented in cars given the increasing sophistication of ECUs. Any bus related interaction requires an inherent trust between all participating components.

However, apart from (1), car makers will most likely never be liable for any of the other exploits because they relate to unreasonable tampering of the vehicle - same as tampering with brakes or attaching a car bomb to the ignition.

Abhijeet · Post by **Abhijeet** » 20 May 2010 23:37

Indian roads seem to be almost completely lawless -- within 5 minutes of getting out on the road I generally see all of the following: cars speeding through red lights without even slowing down, driving on the wrong side of the road, squeezing centimeters past each other without warning, flashing their lights and honking at the car in front for no reason, driving 20 kmph above a safe speed, tailgating the car in front, etc. Most times there is no effort at traffic enforcement - the only sad attempts to regulate traffic involve putting unmarked, foot high speedbreakers at random places, and putting barricades with no warning signs in order to make the traffic snake through them.

I can easily see why India has the highest number of auto accident fatalities in the world even with a fraction of the number of cars in more civilized countries.

I think a lot of the breakdown in road behaviour has to do with the increase in the number of non-owner-driven cars, trucks and buses in the last few years, coupled with the fact that anyone can get a driving license in India. This has resulted in people with barely a primary school education, and no formal driving training, being in charge of many of the vehicles on the road. Most other countries would have been cautious about putting so many semi-literate people in charge of machines which can easily maim or kill, but not India of course.

The troubling thing is that most drivers I see on the road will necessarily have a short life if they keep driving the way they do (which would be quite Darwinian), but they will probably take some innocent people along with them as well.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 21 May 2010 07:00

Taking the liberty to annotate Abhijeet's excellent post:

Abhijeet wrote:Indian roads ~~seem to be almost~~ are completely lawless -- within 5 minutes of getting out on the road I generally see all of the following: cars speeding through red lights without even slowing down{well, I am following the car in front onlee}, driving on the wrong side of the road{saving that 20 metre extra driving, hence saving trees and avoiding global warming onlee}, squeezing centimeters past each other without warning{saving space, utility of a 6 lane road instead of 2. economization onlee}, flashing their lights and honking at the car in front for no reason{no reason you say? that moron isn't moving 1 milliseconds after I imagined the light would turn green!}, driving 20 kmph above a safe speed{the posted speed limits are kept lower anticipating that onlee}, tailgating the car in front{I am economizing the road use onlee}, etc. Most times there is no effort at traffic enforcement {who says? we pandus always flag down cars and ticket those who doesn't carry the 'book & paper'!}- the only sad attempts to regulate traffic involve putting unmarked, foot high speedbreakers at random places{isn't that obvious? you can't anticipate it, so you will be wary always!}, and putting barricades with no warning signs in order to make the traffic snake through them. {what could be better! the most efficient way to reduce accident fatalities is to create traffic jams}

I can easily see why India has the highest number of auto accident fatalities in the world even with a fraction of the number of cars in more civilized countries. {We need more traffic jams. No one dies in a fender-bender!}

I think a lot of the breakdown in road behaviour has to do with the increase in the number of non-owner-driven cars, trucks and buses in the last few years{no. it is my car, and I can do what I darn well please with it! This is a free country!}, coupled with the fact that anyone can get a driving license in India{whaddayamean? I got my license after driving a figure H in the maidan. Do you think a blind or paralyzed man could do that?}. This has resulted in people with barely a primary school education, and no formal driving training, being in charge of many of the vehicles on the road {well, such people are there in the highest positions of the country. Do you say they can drive the country, but not drive a puny car?}. Most other countries would have been cautious about putting so many semi-literate people in charge of machines which can easily maim or kill, but not India of course.{There are many atrocities done in other countries. Do you mean we have to follow them here as well?}

The troubling thing is that most drivers I see on the road will necessarily have a short life if they keep driving the way they do (which would be quite Darwinian), but they will probably take some innocent people along with them as well.{No. With the traffic jams we have, soon no one would die in traffic accidents.}

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 May 2010 08:18

>> cars speeding through red lights without even slowing down

this troublesome thing has become very mainstream now. first the bikers and autos started it, followed by the taxis.
I still do not see pvt cars doing it in blr but the above three categories are very much doing it in the heart of town.
only the presence of police at the intersection serves to stop it for the duration of their stay.

I have had a few close shaves when the light was green and I march out, only to see some yahoo coming at me
from right angles. nowadays I am very careful esp if I am the only car marching out. if going for early morning
or late night trip to airport, one has to super careful and keep a phalcon radar coverage.

for some reason bikers hate to change to a lower gear and come to a full stop, their desire is to always keep
moving by hook or crook.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 21 May 2010 08:55

http://news.discovery.com/tech/car-abso ... xygen.html

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 21 May 2010 09:24

Singha wrote:>>
for some reason bikers hate to change to a lower gear and come to a full stop, their desire is to always keep
moving by hook or crook.

That is why you bike - to save time. Why slow down and lose time?

Suppiah · Post by **Suppiah** » 21 May 2010 11:43

If you see this website mostly for folks that homestead in rural USA, it gives you a couple of interesting perspectives;

a) Many tractors sold in US by US companies are actually shipped from India
b) Mahindra tractors have a decent reputation for quality & price combo
c) People seem to perceive Chinese as much worse quality than Indian, which seems to be compared with Japanese!

Read on...

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showth ... p?t=353405

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 21 May 2010 13:12

^^^Mahindra tractors can be seen all over the place in S. USA for quite a while now, this is not a recent phenomenon - they have a darn good reputation and the export ones look really TFTA as compared to the usual Haryana/Punjab khataras.

Manu · Post by **Manu** » 21 May 2010 17:23

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUtynQ35 ... re=related

Mahindra..

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 21 May 2010 18:36

VW plans to launch a polo sedan in 4Q10 to compete with fiesta , sx4 and anhc.

meantime fiesta itself is changing. good deals and discounts are being given on current fiesta.

http://www.team-bhp.com/forum/attachmen ... edan-1.jpg

ANHC arrowshot looks but rounded edges.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 25 May 2010 00:59

Mumbai: The India unit of Nissan Motor on Monday said it has started producing Micra hatchback, for which the domestic sales would commence from July and exports from September.The first Micra compact car rolled out of the unit's factory near the southern city of Chennai on Monday, the company said in a statement.
he cars will be put on display across showrooms in India from May 25, when bookings will also be taken, it said.New car? Get in line, please!"...we are introducing a product that has been specifically designed keeping in mind the discerning consumer needs of India," Nissan Motor's Chief Operating Officer Toshiyuki Shiga said in the statement.

http://sify.com/finance/nissan-says-to- ... jjbif.html

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 26 May 2010 20:56

its a good thing they are taking localization very seriously like maruti and hyundai. keeps the cost of parts low and keeps up the pressure on laggards like toyota, honda and vw.

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 26 May 2010 21:48

Indian Automaker Buying Into Electric Car CompanyBy VIKAS BAJAJ

MUMBAI — Mahindra & Mahindra, one of the largest automakers in India, said Wednesday that it would acquire a controlling stake in Reva, an electric car pioneer based in Bangalore that has been looking for partners with deep pockets to invest in its technology.
ahindra, a conglomerate based in Mumbai that makes tractors, sport utility vehicles and trucks, said it would buy 55.2 percent of Reva by purchasing shares from the founders for an undisclosed price and by investing 450 million rupees, or $10 million, in cash in the company.Reva has sold about 3,500 electric cars around the world, more than any other company but still a relatively small number. The company has struggled to win over customers to its tiny two-seater car, known in India as the Reva i and in Britain as the G-Wiz. Some critics have described the car as a glorified golf cart.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/27/busin ... 7auto.html

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 29 May 2010 07:07

More on Mahindra's buying into Reva:

http://earth2tech.com/2010/05/26/indias ... aker-reva/

Gus · Post by **Gus** » 02 Jun 2010 05:45

Anybody see any harley's on Indian roads? The Dyna and Softail are priced beyond 10 lac. That's beyond my dreams. Maybe the roadster for 7.5. That will take some frugal living for many months in massaland to buy one whenever I R2I (in 1 to 2 years). I saw somewhere that the dealership will sell used ones too. Can't find any info while trawling today.

KarthikSan · Post by **KarthikSan** » 02 Jun 2010 06:14

Gus wrote:Anybody see any harley's on Indian roads? The Dyna and Softail are priced beyond 10 lac. That's beyond my dreams. Maybe the roadster for 7.5. That will take some frugal living for many months in massaland to buy one whenever I R2I (in 1 to 2 years). I saw somewhere that the dealership will sell used ones too. Can't find any info while trawling today.

If you want an oil leaking, 1950s vintage technology rust bucket buy a Royal Enfield. It's cheaper!!!

I'm sure you've heard the joke: 98% of the Hardley-run-Davidsons ever made are still on the road. The rest made it home

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Jun 2010 08:59

royal enfield does have a strong fan following here and biking clubs. sometimes there are long rides like delhi-manali-leh with enfield providing the logistical support and ndtv good times the camera crew. they even have a single seater bicycle seat WW2 style model for those who dont give a s***
about putting a girl on the rear seat...the more feral types who prefer to ride alone.

anything beyond 500cc is a bit overkill on indic roads.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 02 Jun 2010 09:23

can gurulog enlighten this gavar how the new cars' engines are cooled/why dont they require radiators which was the case earlier?

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 02 Jun 2010 09:28

Gus wrote:Anybody see any harley's on Indian roads? The Dyna and Softail are priced beyond 10 lac. That's beyond my dreams. Maybe the roadster for 7.5. That will take some frugal living for many months in massaland to buy one whenever I R2I (in 1 to 2 years). I saw somewhere that the dealership will sell used ones too. Can't find any info while trawling today.

20 days ago, there was a harley-davidson roadshow in mumbai. with prior appointments they were giving trial rides to prospective buyers.

There were at least 6 different type of the beasts to try.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 02 Jun 2010 09:33

RonyKJ wrote:Does anyone know what is happening with Tata Nano production at Sanand?
For quite some time there have been regular predictions of trial production in Jan and actual production in April.
Then there was the announcement that the date would coincide with Gujarat Day on April 30.
Come April 30 and everything is absolutely quiet. To this day there has not been any word on whether production has started
at Sanand. I think there has been some new problem, but why the big secrecy. Our media is so inept in covering this highly
anticipated event.

Tata Nano Sanand starts rolling out nanos today, i.e., 2nd June 2010

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Jun 2010 10:21

Murugan wrote:can gurulog enlighten this gavar how the new cars' engines are cooled/why dont they require radiators which was the case earlier?

You mean like these?

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 02 Jun 2010 10:26

Murugan wrote:can gurulog enlighten this gavar how the new cars' engines are cooled/why dont they require radiators which was the case earlier?

Saar, there are only a few cars where the engines that are directly air cooled: VW Bug, some older Porsche 911s (both Porsche and VW Bug were designed by the same guy anyway and he was big into air-cooled engines), Chevy Corvair etc. Most engines are still cooled using radiators. Only difference in tech is that older cars had water in their radiators and newer cars use radiator coolant fluid instead.

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Jun 2010 10:50

Saar, there are only a few cars where the engines that are directly air cooled: VW Bug, some older Porsche 911s (both Porsche and VW Bug were designed by the same guy anyway and he was big into air-cooled engines)

In addition to Ferdinand Porsche (VW and Porsche), there was a certain gentleman who went by the name Soichiro Honda who had a "yen" for air cooled engines (Why the middle man ? He would ask. Water takes heat from engine, which then transfers to air, why not air directly?). (Look up Soichiro Honda's last car before he was was eased out by the banks , who extracted a promise from him to let his engineers work on liquid cooled engines).

Problem is that air has pretty poor heat transfer capabilities when compared to liquid. Just having fins (like in motorcycles) wont do for larger capacity engines. In fact a SDRE device called "radiator" has such a massive surface area to exchange heat with air. It is difficult to put that kind of surface area on the cylinder and make air flow reliably over it to cool it..

The good old Vespa 150, aka Bajaj 150 aka "Hamara Bajaj of all variants" , the ultra-ultra SDRE scooter and engine had this layout. It was a forced airflow engine, with the fan in the side behind the "grille" forcing air through the cylinder head. Pretty tough, reliable and rugged, can take all the kicks thrown it's way like you do with the "Hamara Bajaj" (not to mention very cheap to make as well, doesn't need radiator, plumbing, pumps etc..etc, so will appeal deeply to the heart of a very cunning Yindoo Bania like Bajaj)

Problem is, it is fine for get some 10 bhp out of 150cc . But try getting 20bhp out if 150 cc, it will give up. So for higher specific output and to meet pollution norms, you need liquid cooling.

KarthikSan · Post by **KarthikSan** » 02 Jun 2010 10:52

Murugan wrote:can gurulog enlighten this gavar how the new cars' engines are cooled/why dont they require radiators which was the case earlier?

Saar...did you just assume that there are no radiators because we don't stop by the roadside stream with an old 5 liter can to fill up water and top off the boiling radiator?

I wouldn't be surprised if a salesman at the car stealership gave you this gem! Team-BHP has a whole thread full of such priceless jewels.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Jun 2010 10:54

KarthikSan wrote:
Gus wrote:Anybody see any harley's on Indian roads? The Dyna and Softail are priced beyond 10 lac. That's beyond my dreams. Maybe the roadster for 7.5. That will take some frugal living for many months in massaland to buy one whenever I R2I (in 1 to 2 years). I saw somewhere that the dealership will sell used ones too. Can't find any info while trawling today.
If you want an oil leaking, 1950s vintage technology rust bucket buy a Royal Enfield. It's cheaper!!!

I'm sure you've heard the joke: 98% of the Hardley-run-Davidsons ever made are still on the road. The rest made it home

the oil leaking days are over for sometime now. check out the latest offerings.

KarthikSan · Post by **KarthikSan** » 02 Jun 2010 10:58

^^^You mean the Royal Enfields? I heard the AVL designed engines are much better.

Hardley-run-Davidsons still leak oil! They are not selling a motorcycle. They are selling a lifestyle

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 02 Jun 2010 11:03

thanks all for enlightening this car-gavar.

me to buy a desi made SUV - confused which one is better - Tata Safari, Xylo, Scorpio, sumo grande?

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Jun 2010 11:29

boiling radiator

The "boiling radiator" is solved not by the coolant, but by use of another very ingenious effect that is found in another SDRE device, called the pressure cooker (yeah, the Hawkins and Prestige types in the Yindian kitchen).

See if you grew up on the Premier Padminis and Ambassadors of old, if you climbed the Kodiakkanal hill, halway up, the Ambassador "cuppaxes" (as they say at the Madrassa) , while the "Maruti" 800 keeps climbing all the way, for days together without any problem.

How saar?. The secret is that just like the "as in pressure cooker, since the pressure evelates, water boils at lot higher than 100C", modern cars have a pressurized water jacket/cooling system. As the altitude increases, water boils at LESS than 100C and SDRE Ambassador "cups" , while Maruti keeps climbing.

The secret in all that is the very lowly radiator cap . It has a pressure sensitive spring in it, which keeps the system pressurized. If the pressure increases ,it opens a wee bit and the excess water overflows into the reservoir and vice versa.

To illustrate. My mom and dad were driving their new car, a Chevy Spark 2 years ago and from Krishnagiri, the engine started overheating and the temp needle went to red. No steam, no drama, no nothing. I asked my dad to open the cap and fill water. A few kilometers, same problem. They limped along by refilling water couple of times, using many liters from the roadside gas stations etc (they also managed to get Castrol Coolant, and they added coolant to the water in the required ratio as well) .

I explained to my dad that these new fangled cars were like a pressure cooker, and that the problem was most probably was with the radiator cap and asked him to check it. What was happening is that since the water is now boiling, the bubbles and it is not a liquid anymore, and so the heat transfer rate falls and hence the car overheats.

I ask him to open the hood and take a look. Dad opens the hood and declares that there is NO RADIATOR CAP like in the other cars..I said, ok, ok.. Is there a reservoir which says radiator fluid ?. Yes, he says. Okay, is there a cap on top.. Yes. yes.. Ok, I tell him that is the problem. It stuck in a funny position?. Dad says.. Dunno . Mom takes out a pin and pokes around, says she "released" something , they fit the cap back on .

The the car reached Hosur, and same problem again, temp needle goes to red, when my parents were afraid of damaging the engine and were tense and were "psyched" about it. So, I went to the Chevy dealership and bought a new radiator cap, drove down to Hosur from Bangalore and fitted the new radiator cap. That cap cost Rs 365 or so.

Waited for the temp needle to come down, got the engine turning, topped up the radiator with water and coolant, everything fine. The car came to Bangalore then went to Mysore, then on to Shravanebelgola , then back home.. No problems at all with it for all these years since.

Moral of the story.. The radiator cap is a critical piece. If it "cups" your "modern" car stops, while in the olde Ambassador, wait for sometime, fill with water and you are all set to go! In fact, many older trucks in India, I noticed, drive with no cap on the radiators at all!..

But all the same, I was extremely pleased and punch drunk on my "soup-e-rear" "anal"y-tical skills and doing the "root cause" anal-e-sis , a "repeated why" which even Mr Toyoda (the grandpa) would have been proud of, by just being on the phone!.

Hmm. So the Yum-bee-yea giri actually saved a couple of bucks huh, and denied a TFTA dealer to rip us off for a couple of thousand in "repairs" (Saar.. hose leak, thermostat not working, need to change entire cooling system, so will take 1 week and RsXXXX onree). Not bad at all.

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 02 Jun 2010 11:42

Nano's Month long super drive

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 02 Jun 2010 12:14

TFTA Yum Bee Aye is messing with greasy automotive stuff, Tauba Tauba!

But he is right, radiator cap is one of the 1st things to look at when cooling problems occur or bad head gasket is suspected (Allah na karey). Another indication will be coolant stains collecting around the radiator - that is why it is always a good idea to keep surfaces clean under the hood so that such leaks can be detected quickly. But most important thing to remember is to let car cool down before opening any radiator cap or fiddling with overflow bottle.

A big problem especially with the after market radiators today is the super cheap radiator caps and necks made by tarrel-than-mountain fiends.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 02 Jun 2010 12:29

^^^^
Very good advice from RB. Remember that the system is pressurized now, so don't try and open the radiator cap from an engine that has just been stopped. By the way, only older cars tend to have caps on the radiator. Most newer ones have it on the reservoir.

Also, one more point to note is that using coolant fluid (which is a mixture of water + other chemicals) instead of plain old water is done for a couple of reasons. One of them is that coolant fluid has higher boiling point/lower freezing point than plain water. Another reason is that it causes less corrosion than water.

vina · Post by **vina** » 02 Jun 2010 13:19

Raja Bose wrote:TFTA Yum Bee Aye is messing with greasy automotive stuff, Tauba Tauba!

Au contraire mon ami , I was only doing YumBeeYea giri. All the while, I was listening sympathetically with great empathy and was noting "facts" and doing "analysis", while working on a "recommendation" for a Stratejee like a good consultant.

I in fact , dispensed the "advice" and said , oh, get a radiator cap for a Chevy Spark in Hosur .. Dad says, err, there is a slight problem, there is no dealer in Hosur and i can't get a Chevy spare from any roadside auto shop like a Maruti or Tata! I see a Hyundai dealer right across the road. Can I get one from there ?.

My mom of course is nowhere as "smooth" as my dad. She grabs the phone from my dad and gives me a earful about sitting at my office and dispensing "advice" .

Seeing that it was going to be nightfall in a few hours and that my Musharraf was going to get roasted otherwise, I quickly did a tactical retreat and went to the Chevy Dealer (I used to work in MG Road and the Chevy dealer is very close to MG Road), bought the spare and drove to Hosur and got my hands dirty with "implementation" and not being restricted to "stratejee".

If it had been the inlaws, I would have been all "stratejee" of course. I would have tut-tutted and said, why dont you leave the car with the dealer in Hosur and take a taxi to come to Bangalore.

We can go back and pick up the car when the dealer is done!

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 02 Jun 2010 14:22

vina wrote: If it had been the inlaws, I would have been all "stratejee" of course. I would have tut-tutted and said, why dont you leave the car with the dealer in Hosur and take a taxi to come to Bangalore. We can go back and pick up the car when the dealer is done!

Saar, this stratejee will come back and bite you in the musharraf. Expect such a incident and your callousness be reminded to you when you are 75 years old.
With breakdowns, in-laws + SHQ expect nothing less than your presence in the shortest possible time with repairs (or service guy) and emergency supplies like water and food. Anything less and your face eternal wrath.
Short-term stratejees are for brave mujahids. Long term stratejee is to pitch in during emergency and use this is extract max mileage from SHQ ( like avoiding the marriage of distant cousin of SHQ).

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Jun 2010 14:40

You should read the L&M dhaga Vina

Murugan · Post by **Murugan** » 02 Jun 2010 15:40

Mashalla*

a stupid question on radiator by an SDRE gavaar pulled an L&M yarn in auto dhaga!

bhailog, xylo, scorpio, safari or grande? pl one more favour ...

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 02 Jun 2010 16:29

Murugan, it depends upon what YOU want.

Xylo is a minivan. A people mover, which M&M claim to be possibly used as a family car.

Scorpio is a crude SUV, ie, it looks like one, more or less.

Safari is a bit more expensive SUV, ie it looks like one, and you pay more

Grande is a Utility Vehicle, can't really call it a 'car'.

If you want to 'show off the big stick', go for scorpio. If you also want to drive a lot, go for safari. If you want to drag around your and SHQ's extended family, go for xylo. Pass grande in any case.

That is my dumb and worthless opinion.