Indian Response to Terrorism

Kati · Post by **Kati** » 07 Dec 2008 05:31

Question to admin and software experts: Is it possible to copy/save
a file from youtube before it is pulled down or removed (in case)?
I need to copy and save the file of Hamid Gul's interview for wider dissemination.
Thanx.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 07 Dec 2008 05:37

try this take the video out put from you computer and connect to tv and then from tv video output connect to VCR or Videocam to caputre the image and sound.

Guddu · Post by **Guddu** » 07 Dec 2008 05:53

Might be worthwhile reading what "Cold Start" is all about.
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/pub ... trine.html

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 07 Dec 2008 06:00

for the benefit of Rajesh

Historical context in Afghanistan, Carter and Brezesinksi policy
CIA/SIS Clinton
*******************
http://www.access.gpo.gov/congress/house/house09.html
GLOBAL TERRORISM: SOUTH ASIA-THE NEW LOCUS
HEARING BEFORE THE COMMITTEE ON INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED SIXTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JULY 12, 2000 Serial No. 106-173
Mr. ROHRABACHER. "This is a joke. I mean, you have to go to closed session to tell us where the weapons are coming from?...Only the United States has given...part and parcel to supporting the Taliban all along and still is, let me add...We have been supporting the Taliban because all of our aid goes to the Taliban areas, and when people from the outside try to put aid into areas not controlled by the Taliban, they are thwarted by our own State Department."
*******************
http://www.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/10/cf.00.html
CNN CROSSFIRE
Aired September 10, 2002 - 19:00 ET
"MCDERMOTT: we put the Taliban there...We funded the Taliban through the Pakistanis, and all that money -- we could have cut off that money and stopped what was going on. We knew what was going on there."
*******************
http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2001/tst110501.htm
Statement - Ron Paul, M.D.
November 5, 2001
"We should recognize that American tax dollars helped to create the very Taliban government that now wants to destroy us...Our government publicly supported the Taliban right up until September 11...Already in 2001 the U.S. has provided $125 million in so-called humanitarian aid to the country, making us the world's single largest donor to Afghanistan. Rest assured the money went straight to the Taliban..."
*******************
Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinsk - Le Nouvel Observateur (France), Jan 15-21 1998 p. 76*
http://www.milnet.com/afi/2001/AFI-Research-1029.htm
"CIA aid to the Mujahadeen began during 1980, that is to say, after the Soviet army invaded Afghanistan, 24 Dec 1979. But the reality, secretly guarded until now, is completely otherwise:
Indeed, it was July 3,1979 that President Carter signed the first directive for secret aid to the opponents of the pro-Soviet regime in Kabul..."
*******************
http://www.ratical.org/ratville/JFK/Joh ... leban.html
US, CIA support Taleban
"An Afghan politician on Sunday asked the United States to stop supporting the Taleban militia...The U.S. role in the case of Bin Laden is dubious, since they could arrest him if they wanted to,"

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 07 Dec 2008 06:20

Copy, paste the youtube link in http://www.savevid.com/ to download

Kati wrote:Question to admin and software experts: Is it possible to copy/save a file from youtube before it is pulled down or removed (in case)? I need to copy and save the file of Hamid Gul's interview for wider dissemination.
Thanx.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 07 Dec 2008 07:45

This is a fine example of Indian Leaders on terrorism response, leaving the jingoism aside in the aftermath of Mumbai attack, the real face and the long term goals are articulated. Vote bank politics and next election are never far away from these politicians.
How indifferent does the hon'able prime minister is, another link in leadership crisis of this nation.

Today we are witnessing an unacceptable rise in intolerance. Our society seems more divided, more angry and tragically more violent," Singh said at the annual convocation of the Visva Bharati as its Chancellor here. Stating that it was the fundamental right of all to follow their religion, practise their culture and hold on to their views, he said, "it is nobody's right to deny anyone's or to dictate faith and opinion of others."

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Dec 2008 07:57

No-No. A response is needed after this. Cant blow it away like before. Am sure the Chiefs are burning midnight oil if not whisky. There will be response.

If you mean the armed forces chiefs then I am doubtful, since the GOI and politicians will not allow the chiefs to take any initiative, and even if they realize that the chief's plans may be good - acknowledging such initiative would be problematic for their ego and paranoia to stay on in power.

However, personally, I would definitely equate much of the policies of Israel (which is pretty much a religious state) with the state-sponsored-terrorist policies that come out of TSP.

There are very good reasons for Israelis to mistrust Arab/Palestine activities -would you please care to look up United Nations reports (as part of the report on the Arab Higher Committe in connection with the Nazi regime) on the role and activity of someone known as The Grand Mufti Haj Amin al Husseini, ["GrossMufti" in Deutsche], and his rather significant contribution to the Holocaust aimed at erasing the Jews from the middle east. I hope you will not dismiss what you find as "Jewish propaganda". From even before the war, a strong theological sentiment existed within Islam in the middle east in favour of a "final solution" to the "Jewish problem" - and some, not necessarily Jew, believe they have strong reasons to suspect that some of the Nazi war criminals were given protection and refuge in Islamic middle east, particularly Syria (agreed, similar indications exist for strongly Catholic countries of Latin Americas). Add to that the records of genocide openly and proudly confessed in core Islamic texts, and definitely remembered by this small community of generally persecuted people with a long long memory.

It is a pity, that Indians still cannot realize why Israelis behave in such a paranoid way - because Israelis did not have intellectuals and conniving politicians who succeeded in removing the social memory of consistent, violent, genocidic hatred from Muslims - a factor that still makes Israel survive, whereas Indians hesitate even to respond to terror sourced from Islam.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 07 Dec 2008 08:10

with so many social networking websites coming up, would it be difficult for the home department and the tri-services to have one for all these terrorists and likes and their career achievements albeit classified? digitize all the investigation reports so a simple search will show all under the scanner, one doesn't need to have a five year plan for that.

Fahim, the map maker was known in Jan/Feb yet now he is being investigated again ...

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 07 Dec 2008 08:20

brihaspati wrote: There are very good reasons for Israelis to mistrust Arab/Palestine activities -would you please care to look up United Nations reports ...

Errr. Arab Israeli issues?? Aren't we in the wrong forum or website.

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Dec 2008 08:27

Errr. Arab Israeli issues?? Aren't we in the wrong forum or website.

well you appeared to think it equivalent to the TSP case! And I think you made a good relevant point - we fail to understand Israel because we fail to understand Islamic terror - and in one way we fail to understand TSP because we fail to understand Israel.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 07 Dec 2008 08:37

brihaspati wrote:
Errr. Arab Israeli issues?? Aren't we in the wrong forum or website.
well you appeared to think it equivalent to the TSP case! And I think you made a good relevant point - we fail to understand Israel because we fail to understand Islamic terror - and in one way we fail to understand TSP because we fail to understand Israel.

No, I don't think I made that point.

Anyway, I have to go an watch a Shahrukh Khan movie now, so best regards

shynee · Post by **shynee** » 07 Dec 2008 11:24

Pakistan will send no officials to India

Gillani meets Qureshi, Mukhtar, Kayani, Pasha

ISLAMABAD: Prime Minister Yousaf Raza Gillani on Saturday held a joint meeting with Defence Minister Ahmad Mukhtar, Foreign Affairs Minister Shah Mehmood Qureshi, Chief of Army Staff General Ashfaq Parvez Kayani and Inter-Services Intelligence Director General Lt General Ahmad Shuja Pasha.

Issues of national importance were discussed during the meeting held at the Prime Minister House here on Saturday. During the meeting, the top civilian and military leadership have decided not to send any representative of any key institution including the Inter-Services Intelligence to India until New Delhi provides solid proof to Islamabad.

It was decided during the meeting that the government to deal with anti-state elements with iron hand and to further strengthen country's defence. According to sources, Army chief and ISI director general apprised the leadership about the latest security situation and external matters.

The meeting also discussed situation emerging after Mumbai attacks and other matters related to any expected reaction. The sources said Prime Minster Gillani paying tributes to armed forces and other national security institutions emphasized that the armed forces and its attached departments were working hard for the national defence. He said that there should be no sense of concern among the nation. Gillani said that the democratic government would defend every inch of soil and those who would cast evil eye on Pakistan would face severe response. The government would provide all out facilities to institutions of the national security for the defence, he said.

Gillani stated that Pakistan does not have any aggressive designs against any country and want cordial and friendly relations with all countries including India and now leveling of baseless allegations against Pakistan should be stopped.

"Pakistan is ready to cooperate with India in Mumbai investigation unconditionally but New Delhi still has not shown any positive response to our offer," he said. Gen Kayani apprised the leadership on the latest Pak-Afghan border situation, operation in tribal areas, operational preparations of the army, and other important issues.

The chief of the army staff also informed the meeting that the Pakistan Army was ready to defend the motherland and institutions of the national security would be in fore front to face any situation.

Rahul Shukla · Post by **Rahul Shukla** » 07 Dec 2008 13:16

Rahul Shukla wrote:Mumbai suspect lives freely in Pakistan (Chicago Tribune)
For a suspected terrorist watched by Washington and wanted in New Delhi, Hafiz Mohammed Saeed seems remarkably carefree. He lives openly in Lahore, and on Friday, he led prayers at his group's mosque, lecturing about sacrifice to almost 10,000 followers as three armed men stood behind him.
So he barks every friday within Brahmos range! How much easier can this get? GOI could kill 10,001 terrorists in one massive saturated strike.

Lashkar and other groups were founded in the 1980s and early 1990s with the help of the military and spy agencies to fight in the conflict over Indian-controlled Kashmir, disputed since the independence of Pakistan and India in 1947. Although Pakistan banned the groups in 2002, most kept operating and just took new names.
The country's powerful spy agency, Inter-Services Intelligence, or ISI, helped create most of the Kashmiri groups, experts say.
Analysts said that it was extremely unlikely that Pakistan would turn over Saeed or 19 other men on India's wanted list, or two Lashkar leaders Indian authorities say masterminded the Mumbai attacks. If they did so the already weak government would face a major backlash.
He is hardly the only militant wanted by the Indian government who appears to operate freely in public in Pakistan. Maulana Masood Azhar, a militant leader released by India in exchange for hostages on a hijacked airliner in 1999, is building a giant mosque in Bahawalpur.

pradeepe · Post by **pradeepe** » 07 Dec 2008 14:18

"I'd prefer a dog visiting my house"

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 07 Dec 2008 15:39

Guddu wrote:Might be worthwhile reading what "Cold Start" is all about.
http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/pub ... trine.html

The mention about Pakistan's nuclear threshold, I think it important. Let's go back to 1999, Kargil. Remember how Nawaz Sharif shuttled between Islamabad & Washington, begging the Clinton administration to mediate. They had Nuclear weapons back then too, but no threats about using them at that time afair. Pakistan knows that a nuclear strike against India will effectively mean that Pakistan will cease to exist. They won't hit the button until & unless they're faced with absolute destruction & annihilation, and then they'd think 'We're going down anyways, why not take them with us?". Until that situation is prevented, Pakistan will never resort to using Nuclear Weapons.

With national elections due by May, Singh and other Congress Party leaders know that a war with Pakistan would cost them votes among the Muslims in India who form an important bloc of support for their party.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printeditio ... 5432.story

I want to know how can this point be an argument not to wage a war!

If there are people in India who sympathise with Pakistan, it's best that they be found out & exterminated, Muslim or not. How can their votes be even talked about? These people are not Indian, they're Pakistanis and why should our Politicians care for Porki votes??

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Dec 2008 17:14

India slams Pakistan over Mumbai hoax call reports
1 hour ago

MUMBAI (AFP) — India's foreign minister said on Sunday that Pakistani reports about a hoax call made in his name during the Mumbai siege were an attempt to divert blame for the attacks.

The call, from someone claiming to be Pranab Mukherjee to Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari, put Pakistan on high alert of a military strike by India while militants were still fighting security forces in Mumbai.

The caller told Zardari that India would take military action if Islamabad did not hand over those behind the attacks, Pakistani newspapers reported on Saturday.

"I had made no such telephone call," Mukherjee said in a statement explaining how India rushed to clarify that the call was a hoax.

"I can only ascribe this series of events to those in Pakistan who wish to divert attention from the fact that a terrorist group operating from Pakistani territory planned and launched a ghastly attack on Mumbai."

Pakistan responded to the hoax call by putting its air force on stand-by, and the incident triggered a flurry of diplomatic activity as world leaders feared a row between the nuclear-armed rivals could lead to war.

Mukherjee said it was "worrying" that Pakistan could "even consider acting on the basis of such a hoax call".

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/ar ... jiZ4CvW1sQ

This is reeking desperately of the Pig trying to wrestle with India and muddying it in the process while India tries to desperately avoid wrestling with it.

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 07 Dec 2008 18:25

I checked on wikipedia . PAF operates from 11 bases. 5/10 brahmos per airbase should clear the way for sukhoi and mirages .Jaguars can follow . ( I have no idea whether Brahmos can reach all airbases , if not use Prithvi with conventional warheads or whatever can reach it.Like George Bush said, instead of fighting the enemy on our soil, let us take the fight to enemy soil and hence , Iraq invasion.). Attack should commence on Jummah giving Chummah to all the piglets . karachi can be taken care of easily by IN . If IN could do it in 1971, it can do better in 2008. IAF should target ISI and jehadi army headquarters. Pakistani Punjab is the rootcause of all evil.Destroy it completely.
For once India should break the myth that it won't act bcoz of the fear of Chini nukes in pukiland. Indian politicians should commit to this cause the same way as they are committed to corruption i.e. 100 %. I wish i could kick MMS on his musharraf.

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 07 Dec 2008 19:14

durgesh wrote:I checked on wikipedia . PAF operates from 11 bases. 5/10 brahmos per airbase should clear the way for sukhoi and mirages .Jaguars can follow . ( I have no idea whether Brahmos can reach all airbases , if not use Prithvi with conventional warheads or whatever can reach it.Like George Bush said, instead of fighting the enemy on our soil, let us take the fight to enemy soil and hence , Iraq invasion.). Attack should commence on Jummah giving Chummah to all the piglets . karachi can be taken care of easily by IN . If IN could do it in 1971, it can do better in 2008. IAF should target ISI and jehadi army headquarters. Pakistani Punjab is the rootcause of all evil.Destroy it completely.
For once India should break the myth that it won't act bcoz of the fear of Chini nukes in pukiland. Indian politicians should commit to this cause the same way as they are committed to corruption i.e. 100 %. I wish i could kick MMS on his musharraf.

Brahmos' range is 300 Km afaik. The PAF is, anyways, not a problem to worry about. The porkis can gloat all they want about their pilots being better trained, fairer & taller than ours

but a quick look at their inventory & you can spot the mismatch. The IAF can wipe it's ass with the Porkis. Bomb all the forward bases with Brahmos, we don't even need to bomb the rest of the bases, remember how Gnats took their Ameriki made state of the art fighters down, and to think we have Su-30s & Mig 29 now.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 07 Dec 2008 19:27

Perhaps all u military experts could start a discussion thread on the MILFORUM titled:
HOW I WOULD SMASH PAKISTAN

I mean, surely the Indian Army, Air Forc, Navy etc. need the info and expert advice?

brihaspati · Post by **brihaspati** » 07 Dec 2008 19:49

Narayanan

Perhaps all u military experts could start a discussion thread on the MILFORUM titled:
HOW I WOULD SMASH PAKISTAN I mean, surely the Indian Army, Air Forc, Navy etc. need the info and expert advice?

Most BRFites do not try to spell out reco for explicit tactical weapons details to be applied on Pakiban. We can only discuss political and broad strategic issues connected with military moves - war is the extension of politics according to Klauswitz. But how about starting a thread on "HOW I WOULD SMASH DUMB OVER-ENTHUSIASTIC BRFITES" "whose over-enthusiasm I consider an indication of their utter stupidty compared to my own superior intelligence to be met with such a response that they lose interest in ever speaking out again"? And you might never know whether there are people lurking out here among the "oldies" who might just happen to have some "real" experience about this?

Anyway, I keep backups - so you can carry out your favourite tactic of deleting without warnings!

Chandragupta · Post by **Chandragupta** » 07 Dec 2008 19:51

narayanan wrote:Perhaps all u military experts could start a discussion thread on the MILFORUM titled:
HOW I WOULD SMASH PAKISTAN I mean, surely the Indian Army, Air Forc, Navy etc. need the info and expert advice?

Not worthy of a thread, imo.

Not much is needed to smash the pigs, Chagan Bhujbal's famed hawai chappal would do it.

However, I was thinking, like letting my horses wander around.

And I suddenly realised that we have an estimated 1.5 Trillion USD lying stashed away in Swiss Banks. All the money looted by our corrupt mamus from the taxpayer since 1947. If they are squeezed, their national & international assets would be over $ 2 Trillion.

Even if we use 10% of that for Defence, that comes out $ 200 Billion! How many raptors could be buy with that?

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 07 Dec 2008 20:03

SIMPLE SOLUTION :- CAN BE ADAPTED IMMEDIATELY

Immediately STOP flow of water into Pakistan - refuse to release water until our demands are met. Will create approar in Pakistan, International pressure etc - after about, say 7-10 days (when we are unable to hold any more water), THEN as a 'goodwill gesture' open the floodgates and release ALL the held back water in 1 go, on the condition that they respond to our demands in 24 hrs.

In case no action in 24 hrs -- Repeat cycle - no water / all water

Flooding their fields, drying out their crops cycle will certainly 'up the ante' - and they will either have to succomb or declare war - to which we will give a fitting reply.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 07 Dec 2008 20:21

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... tics&sid=1

War as rhetoric... Professionals know near term and long term costs associated with war. Very easy and very macho to start. What is the exit strategy?? USA has learnt this in Iraq!

As i have consistently said, give Pakistan a definite action plan and timeline. Failing which, utilize special forces to eliminate the perpetrators and their sponsors, one by one. In this, there should be no letup!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Dec 2008 20:34

Immediately STOP flow of water into Pakistan - refuse to release water until our demands are met

One cannot stop the water just like that. Requires diversionary channels and storage facilities and more unless you want to flood the plains and create new riverways. It's not a tap for sure.

Nesoj · Post by **Nesoj** » 07 Dec 2008 20:47

One cannot stop the water just like that. Requires diversionary channels and storage facilities and more unless you want to flood the plains and create new riverways. It's not a tap for sure

I'm not talking of stopping water indefinately - we do not have the capacity to store all the water - but we do have the capacity to store a considerable amount (say 7-10 days flow) with our barrages and dams .

My strategy was to STOP the water - wait for there to be an app roar, then immediately RELEASE ALL the water - leading to flooding in the plains of Pakistan

Repeat cycle - again and again and again .........

This is in our hands - we can start at 5 min notice

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 07 Dec 2008 20:57

Pranay wrote:http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fo ... tics&sid=1

War as rhetoric... Professionals know near term and long term costs associated with war. Very easy and very macho to start. What is the exit strategy?? USA has learnt this in Iraq!

As i have consistently said, give Pakistan a definite action plan and timeline. Failing which, utilize special forces to eliminate the perpetrators and their sponsors, one by one. In this, there should be no letup!

War is expensive
Is it more expensive than nations dignity and existence?
When is it then war justified, if not now?

Why are we spending billions in buying developing weapons?

Why are we keeping a million strong army?

Only for Republic day parades and Wagah gate keeping and few ADCs to President and Governors?

WHat is this nation come to?

When institutions are being attacked we are talking of expense?

Oh by the way does increase GDP!

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 07 Dec 2008 20:58

My strategy was to STOP the water - wait for there to be an app roar, then immediately RELEASE ALL the water - leading to flooding in the plains of Pakistan

Repeat cycle - again and again and again .........

This is in our hands - we can start at 5 min notice

EVIL!

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 07 Dec 2008 21:05

Immediately STOP flow of water into Pakistan - refuse to release water until our demands are met.

Reminds me of the Story of The Boss. Learned it in the Eye-Eye-Tea, one of the few things I learned.

Once upon a time, the organs of the human body decided to elect a Boss. They gave each organ a few minutes to say why it should be The Boss.

The Brain said: I am the brain of the organ-e-zation. I do the thinking for everyone, I process the information that comes in, I give the commands that keep everyone working, safe and growing. Obviously I should be the Boss. I work with ALL of you and everyone is important to me, I am fair, tall, etc.

The Eyes said: "The Brain cannot do anything without the information that we provide. We are a team of two, work in perfect unison. We provide most of the information that the body needs to see dangers, see food, see mates, and evaluate most things.

The Ears said: "The Eyes are too arrogant. We also work perfectly though we are separated by 5 inches of solid bone. The Brain hides behind the skull while we face the harsh world, occasionally even get "jhapads". We can sense inputs over an immense range, a factor of 15 powers of ten in amplitude, and a huge range of frequencies. The Eyes sense only a small portion of the spectrum, they should be ashamed of themselves, and they are so delicate and pampered, and even cry.

The Nose said... (well... as you see, this could go on for a long time).

So at the end the Organs said: OK, Brain, you are the only one who can process all this information and make a decision, so you are right, YOU be the Boss.

The As*hole then yelled:
YOU ARE ALL UNFAIR! I WON'T TAKE THIS! YOU WILL SEE WHAT I CAN DO!

Whereupon the as*hole stopped up. Shut down the "flow", if you will. The eyes started glazing over. The Brain got a headache. The ears felt aches. The nose started feeling the stink. The limbs became weak.

And the organs then voted again, and made the As*hole the Boss.

Which goes to prove, as they taught me very carefully in the Eye-Eye-Tea:
U don't have to b a Brain to be The Boss. U just have to b an As*hole

Q.E.D.

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 07 Dec 2008 21:41

Nesoj wrote:but we do have the capacity to store a considerable amount (say 7-10 days flow) with our barrages and dams .

What are those barrages and dams, and on which rivers?

Chinmayanand · Post by **Chinmayanand** » 07 Dec 2008 21:46

This is how we treat our BRAVEHEARTS whether it is the Olympic champion or the NSG commando . This is the attitude of our govt machinery be it armed forces /bureaucrats/politicians . Instead of worrying abt porkistan future , we shud devote some time to our future, our country. Looks like this country is bankrupt when it comes to self pride and self esteem. Its not even two weeks and here go... check out this story...http://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/ar ... 796706.cms

Is this the Indian (establishment) response to terrorism ?

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 07 Dec 2008 21:47

I had said earlier

Indian Response to Terrorism?
None

Its D + 12 days now

milindc · Post by **milindc** » 07 Dec 2008 21:51

John Snow wrote:I had said earlier

Indian Response to Terrorism?
None

Its D + 12 days now

Arre Baba,
Whats up with you?
The 'demarche' has been sent by Registered Post, duly sealed of course. Have some patience.

Vivek_A · Post by **Vivek_A** » 07 Dec 2008 21:57

harbans wrote:Immediately STOP flow of water into Pakistan - refuse to release water until our demands are met

One cannot stop the water just like that. Requires diversionary channels and storage facilities and more unless you want to flood the plains and create new riverways. It's not a tap for sure.

It can be done in the short term hurting them in the rabi season.

link

Rabi crops are generally sown between October to February and harvested by June. Most important Rabi crop is wheat.

So right now would be a good time.

vdutta · Post by **vdutta** » 07 Dec 2008 23:17

Nesoj wrote:SIMPLE SOLUTION :- CAN BE ADAPTED IMMEDIATELY

Immediately STOP flow of water into Pakistan - refuse to release water until our demands are met. Will create approar in Pakistan, International pressure etc - after about, say 7-10 days (when we are unable to hold any more water), THEN as a 'goodwill gesture' open the floodgates and release ALL the held back water in 1 go, on the condition that they respond to our demands in 24 hrs.

In case no action in 24 hrs -- Repeat cycle - no water / all water

Flooding their fields, drying out their crops cycle will certainly 'up the ante' - and they will either have to succomb or declare war - to which we will give a fitting reply.

I have better idea. lets make those rivers pig washing/playing/pig care center. lets hack Pig TV and show it live. let them see what water they are drinking...

on the second thoughts.. that might now work.. who knows porkis might like the pig water...

Ujjal · Post by **Ujjal** » 07 Dec 2008 23:34

An appropriate question is - will India consider responding even if 50K Indians die at once?

US policy in one line can be described as "don't dare irritate us by attacking TSP even if 50K Indians die in the hands of TSP terrorists."

It's all about respecting the status quo.

So today it's 200 Indians. Tomorrow it's going to be 1000 Indians.

Will India attack TSP?

Keep dreaming.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 08 Dec 2008 00:48

A non-military option still is available for all Indians. Infect Indus river with dead pigs. Throw all the pork bones, hog industrial remains into the river. Call it a religious process.

It would hurt them where it is needed to hurt most.

Pranay · Post by **Pranay** » 08 Dec 2008 01:54

War is expensive
Is it more expensive than nations dignity and existence?
When is it then war justified, if not now?

Why are we spending billions in buying developing weapons?

Why are we keeping a million strong army?

Only for Republic day parades and Wagah gate keeping and few ADCs to President and Governors?

WHat is this nation come to?

When institutions are being attacked we are talking of expense?

Oh by the way does increase GDP!

J. Snow, I'll try and answer some of your questions by in turn asking you the following...

1) What would be India's objectives for declaring war on Pakistan? Is it to hold territory? Crush their economy? Bring to book individuals and organizations responsible for the recent attack on Bombay and for the chronic bomb blasts across India?

2) Will war achieve those objectives or can those same objectives be achieved by other means?

3) What are the threasholds that would need to be met for India to say "Misson Accomplished!". In other words, having started a war, what would be India's exit strategy?

4) What would be the tangible and intangible response of Pakistan and the larger Islamic world, militarily and economically against India?

At times like these, it is clearly understandable to be very agitated and emotional. It is also exactly at times like these that people/nations make emotional responses, that can drag them into unforseen situations not to their liking.

My take is, as i have mentioned previously, tighten the screws on them (without any letup) till all of India's objectives are achieved. If Pakistan so chooses to respond militarily, then whack them with everything that India has militarily. India should ruthlessly pursue it's objectives, but war should never be the first option.

Pakistan's economy is already in ruins and it is fast following in the footsteps of failed states like Somalia. India's economic growth is the envy of most countries of the world today.

Pakistan has not much to lose, it is baiting India with a war that would only help Pakistan in the long run, not India.

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 08 Dec 2008 02:06

The Peace of Today costs more than War of Yesterday.

enqyoob · Post by **enqyoob** » 08 Dec 2008 02:17

3) What are the threasholds that would need to be met for India to say "Misson Accomplished!". In other words, having started a war, what would be India's exit strategy?

Easy.

1. Top ten generals of the Pakistan Army dead or in custody of India, US, or Saudi Arabia (they will try to escape, and that's not preventable).
2. Top ten officers of the ISI dead, or in custody of India, US, or Saudi Arabia.
3. Pakistan Army as an entity no longer exists. Either surrendered, or broken into Baluchistan, Pakhtoonistan, Baltistan, Sindh and Pakjabi armies, and the Pakjabi Army crushed and its remnants surrendered or deserted.
4. Baluchistan, Pakhtoonistan, and Sindh declare independence. Baltistan either independent or merges with / surrenders to India.
5. Nuclear facilities and nuclear weapons and all ballistic missiles, fighter planes, all destroyed or surrendered.
6. New nations of Baluchistan, Pakhtoonistan and Sindh sign Mutual Defense Treaties with India, renounce standing armies, and disarm themselves of all heavy weaponry and of course of any WMD.
7. All madrassahs either demolished in air raids and missile raids, or taken over by the new nations, with a mandatory modern syllabus. Religious instruction reduced to no more than 1 course out of 5 per semester.
8. All the new nations adopt Constitutional separation between religion and State and write in protections for people of all religions, and start off with strict laws against religious discrimination or hate-incitement.

I think what I heard even Condoleeza Rice say is that she was advising India to make sure the response was EFFECTIVE. As in, if you go after a rattle-snake, you don't just tap it on the head. YOU KILL IT VERY VERY DEAD.

Dhiman · Post by **Dhiman** » 08 Dec 2008 02:48

Some punitive actions that, in my opinion, will not lead to a full-scale war: 1) abrogating the Indus water treaty, 2) aggressive patrolling of coastal waters around Karachi and shooting down anything that moves without prior Indian permission, 3) small and quick infantry strikes across the border 10 to 15 km deep into TSP territory to destroy terrorist targets and then to pull back, 4) infiltrating snipers into Pakistan to take out key terrorist leaders, 5) asking international banks to shut off bank accounts of TSP generals, 6) funding liberal Islamic scholars and liberal educational institutions in TSP, 7) supporting liberal elements of Pakistan society (not necessarily bringing them to India), 8 ) Putting pressure on other countries to put pressure on Pakistan, 9) Creating an internal security infrastructure, 10)..., 11)..., etc...

Unless you are willing to see ding-dong missiles flying over Indian cities, actions that lead to an overt war should not be on the table. TSP does not have much to loose, but we do. The strategy should not be to win every battle, but to win the war, but obviously the silent war between TSP and India has gone on for decades now and not sure if our leaders are even focused towards winning the war or just sleeping at the wheel.

Understanding that the best punitive action is an action that TSP cannot respond to is critical. If we fire missles at ISI headquarters, they will fire missiles too. However, there is not much they can do, if we throttle Indus water supply. Unkil understands this well, hence despite knowing that it was the Saudi's and the Pakistani's that were involved in 9/11, they went after Iraq and Afghanistan to spread democracy.

Keep in mind that Pakistan is going down the drain anyway. Make sure we don't go along with the flow into the drain along with them.