Strategic leadership for the future of India

[brihaspati]

May I put a request to anyone tempted to use Rabindranath Thakur's poems/utterances/writings for thread purposes to also put the context of the Kaviguru writing the quoted lines? He has been quoted in apparent support of everything under the sun, from litigation to rubber plantations. Even his songs are sometimes confused as to which category they belong to - "prem" or "brahma" among others. Almost all of the cointext and background of his writing poems and songs are known. It can be most uncomfortable, if the poet (and essayist and novelist and short story writer) is actually quoted on his rather changeable feelings about politics/nationhood/militancy at different stages in his life.

[brihaspati]

Surinder,
I had these notes from
(a) PhD dissertation by Indivar Kamtekar, University of Cambridge, "The End of the Colonial State in India 1942-47"
(b) Freedom, Trauma and Continuities :Northern India and Independence, ed by D.A.Low and Howard Brasted, New Delhi, 1998. Especially look at Swarna Ayiar's included article "August Anarchy: The Partition massacres in Punjab, 1947"

[svinayak]

How many Mirpuris were in the BIA?

And in which Regt, may I ask?

The Maharaja's State Forces were not BIA.

All information given to me by the friend. You may have the right info and please correct me

[brihaspati]

The religious feelings stirred up by pan-Islamism, and sympathies for the Ottoman Khilaphate, actually was seen in the BIA - while the Muslim soldiers were on active service.

In the beginning of World War I there were about 5,000 people from N.W.F.P. in the British Indian Army, half of whom were Muslim Afridi tribesmen, and this number was reduced to only 1,800 by the end of the war. The influence of pan-Islamism has been acknowledged by Keppel

"These feeling gravely affected the morale of trans-border soldiers serving in the Indian Army, many of whom deserted from cantonments within reach of tribal territory, while pressure by Mullahs and relatives caused large numbers of men, who had been granted short leave previous to departure on active service, to remain
in the safe refuge of their homes and to refuse to return."

The desertion of the armed forces has been reported by Keppel, Chief Commissioner of the province, as,

"It should be noted that the list of deserters is swollen to a great extent by the inclusion of lads who deserted within a few months of their enlistment and to whose cases in normal times no particular attention is paid. Even deducting these, however, the number of desertions by sepoys of some years’ standing is large enough to discredit to a great extent the Afridi as solider…" (Roos Keppel to the Foreign Secretary to the Government of India, p.19)

During the war, Indian Muslim soldiers arrested by the Central Powers as prisoner of war, started taking part in fighting along their Turkish brethren against the British forces on various war fronts. (M. Naeem Qureshi, Pan-Islamism in British Indian Politics- A Study of the Khilafat Movement, 1918-1924, Leiden, Brill, 1999,
p. 14.)

[ramana]

Total Shani effect. Great shibboleths are falling.

[Rahul Mehta]

Now, given the situation in India at that time (pre Independence), we are trying to portray some misguided (if the hand me down is true!) illiterates as a communal virus? One must be fair. If what is stated is true, indeed it is disgraceful, but one should also analyse the reasons without portraying oneself as the sole custodian of Indian nationalism.

There is enough evidence that muslim soldiers in JK area killed sikh/hindu soldiers.

That there is no communality and religious divide in the Army even now is well displayed by Gen Afsar Karim who was on a TV show on headscarf and the beard ban. He was the only Muslim amongst the civilians co religionist and secular and liberal guests, who said that if it is the code of the college, then it has to be adhered to. Likewise, was his comment on the Air Force person who demanded that he be allowed a beard. Gen Afsar Karim indicates the ethos that we inherited from pre Independence days! I take pride that we are not ashamed of being so, notwithstanding all the Indic, Hinduvta etc interpretations that is history and of which a large majority of Indians are not aware and not interested. All they are interested in is lets us live as Indians and forget the divides. Let us thrive and get strong so that we are not intimidated or blackmailed by our adversaries. If we fight amongst ourselves, as we have done in history, it is we who will suffer!

Al-Taquia . And yes, Al-Taquia may not be there, but unless we take truth serum test, we can never know.

-------------------

May I put a request to anyone tempted to use Rabindranath Thakur's poems/utterances/writings for thread purposes to also put the context of the Kaviguru writing the quoted lines? He has been quoted in apparent support of everything under the sun, from litigation to rubber plantations. Even his songs are sometimes confused as to which category they belong to - "prem" or "brahma" among others. Almost all of the cointext and background of his writing poems and songs are known. It can be most uncomfortable, if the poet (and essayist and novelist and short story writer) is actually quoted on his rather changeable feelings about politics/nationhood/militancy at different stages in his life.

Sure. Lets start with poems and articles RT wrote praising Bhagatji, CSji etc. I bet you have never read those poems and/or articles that RT wrote praising Bhagati et al. Why? Because RT never wrote such poems and articles !! Bhagatji's killing DySP Sanders, his bombing Assembly and his trial were some of the most earth shaking incidents in India. But somehow it happened that RT never found time to write for/against these events and these nationalists. I have tons of mud to throw, but a person who calls British King "Bharat bhagya vidhata" and all that nonsense really doesnt deserve much time of mine. My only demand is that JMG should be banned at official places (private people may sing at private places) and RT's all statues etc should be removed from GoI places, all his writings should be removed from GoI premises and he should be labeled as someone who was helping Britishers by discouraging violence against British for fame and Nobel prize.

[RayC]

How many Mirpuris were in the BIA?

And in which Regt, may I ask?

The Maharaja's State Forces were not BIA.

All information given to me by the friend. You may have the right info and please correct me

If Mirpuris were in the BIA and I knew about it, I would surely info.

As far as I know, there were no Mirpuri Regiment or companies, squadron and batteries.

Therefore, I sure would love to be corrected.

The Kashmiris had their own State and their own army and so this news was news to me!

And being authentic news did confuse!

Really authentic? If so, some details please.

Ask your friend!

[RayC]

"These feeling gravely affected the morale of trans-border soldiers serving in the Indian Army, many of whom deserted from cantonments within reach of tribal territory, while pressure by Mullahs and relatives caused large numbers of men, who had been granted short leave previous to departure on active service, to remain in the safe refuge of their homes and to refuse to return."

To equate desertion as there being communality and religious differences within the ranks in the British Indian Army is misplaced logic and interpretation.

They were influenced when on leave and so they deserted! The communality and religiosity influenced the soldiers at home, if indeed that was the cause. It was not displayed in the unit! The subtlety of the issue cannot be forsaken to prove a point! However, it is also conceded that one has to experience the environment to fathom the nuances or else will have to bank on books for knowledge, which too is driven by the agenda of the author.

There are many who desert even now, irrespective of community or religious affiliation. One can attribute any cause for that to suit one's viewpoint and convenience. To wit, Jinnah being a prime cause for the Partition has different viewpoints and it depends on the author's perceptions, real and imagined! Therefore, depending on the reader’s bias, the idea is accepted or rejected. Now, who is right?

May I put a request to anyone tempted to use Rabindranath Thakur's poems/utterances/writings for thread purposes to also put the context of the Kaviguru writing the quoted lines? He has been quoted in apparent support of everything under the sun, from litigation to rubber plantations. Even his songs are sometimes confused as to which category they belong to - "prem" or "brahma" among others. Almost all of the cointext and background of his writing poems and songs are known. It can be most uncomfortable, if the poet (and essayist and novelist and short story writer) is actually quoted on his rather changeable feelings about politics/nationhood/militancy at different stages in his life.

It is not only the changes in society in the different stages of Rabindranath’s life that inspired his works, but also the mood at that point of time.

I would be surprised if it is taken as a drawback that a poet cannot write 'in apparent support of everything under the sun, from litigation to rubber plantations.' A poet is not a scientist the latter having to remain confined to the laws of science. A poet has to have imagination and be freewheeling. Take any poet in any language, any nationality or any religion. He is freewheeling. Omar Khayyam delves in taverns, wines and ale – all which are taboos in his religion and yet also on other issues philosophical or real life. Check Wordsworth or Tennyson or even DL Roy! They are not bridled! Take any author in any language. Do they write on merely one subject? A poet is a dreamer and he pens the silver filigreed cobwebs of his dreams, aspirations and inspirations, the same way as an artist does. In so far as 'prem' or 'brahma' is concerned and some are confused, the answer is that there are also many interpretations on the works of Picasso and Van Gogh. Take cinema. Different critics have different comments. Satyajit Roy has been acclaimed, but Ritwick Ghatak was no less. But then, perceptions rule and it differs from person to person. The human brain cannot be bridled into narrow confines!

If one is to give a backgrounder for every quote, then one would be merely doing that and nothing more. The request is as workable as asking people to explain Indic, Bharatiya, Hinduvta, Hinduism every time the words are mentioned!

It is taken that people are aware and if they are not, they should bone up.

Display of immense readership of vast number of books is indeed good to help others, like me, who are not so blessed. And when in context is a great boon and when not in context, it confuses and one feels deprived!

I will confess I haven't the foggiest as to what was the underlining rationale of the post!

[RayC]

There is enough evidence that muslim soldiers in JK area killed sikh/hindu soldiers.

I am not aware. Do educate me!

Al-Taquia . And yes, Al-Taquia may not be there, but unless we take truth serum test, we can never know.

Al Taqiyya?

If you feel that Afsar Karim is a covert Islamist and all Muslims those who fought for India against Pakistan are Islamist and fundamentalists at heart, then you require not the truth serum, but some serious psychiatrist help!

I have had Muslim troops who operated in the communal riots in Hyderabad as also in Operations and I daresay, they were fundamentalist or disloyal.

I think your statement does great disservice to India and I presume you are a politician of sorts!

As far as your having no time for Rabindranath, well what can one say?

Are you aware that beyond Bhagat, there have been many revolutionaries? Bengal was teeming with them and their exploits were no less, if not more!

His returning the Knighthood was something less? Have you not seen cash for Knighthood scam in Britain involving Indians? Just see how all want Bharat Ratna's these days. I believe there is a clamour that YSR should also be so honoured!!

By your logic, every Bengali and Punjabi should demand that the Congress and Muslim league and their leaders should be effaced from history for robbing them of their hearth and home and heaping upon them the unmitigated hardship and dishonour to these two peoples!

Would that be logical?

Time you smelt the coffee.

Since you are a politician and on freebies, contact SM Krishna. I believe his son in law owns Cafe Coffee Day! He will surely assist you in your time of distress!

[brihaspati]

It was Keppel, and not I, who sepcifically notes the difference from "ordinary/routine desertions" and the "communal/religious nature of the desertion" mobilized by the "mullahs" acting in sympathy with the Turkish/Ottoman Caliphate sentiment.

The reason Rabindranath's writings should be quoted carefully, is because he shows a complex range of emotions and logic where political thought and belief is concerned. Rabindranath was conversant in Persian, and he indicates that he had read Ibn Batuta in the original. But he does not indicate his knowledge of what Ibn Batuta writes openly about Islamist atrocities. There could be several reasons behind his nearly total silence on Islamic atrocity. A major part of this could be personal and famileal. There are hints dropped here and there in his writings and later by a prominent member of the clan, Shubho Thakur. There is a possibility that at some stage the Thakurs had come in intimate contact with Islamic regimes in Bengal, and Shubho writes openly, and Rabindranath writes a short story - about a "Brahmin" official of an "Islamic" ruler somehow rescuing or bringing a Muslim girl/member of the Islamic household and marrying her. At one time there were also speculations about the reason for the clan migrating from Kush village, lying in possible social ostracism because of close contacts/"jatichyuta" because of Muslim companionship.

However, Rabindranath's political meanderings are signficant to note carefully. Pre-1905, 1905, and post 1905. Pre-1905 he did not find it wrong to be seen at places frequented by the likes of Bankim Ch. Chatterjee - people who have been sarcastically referred to by the Thaparites as blatantly communal precursors of "Hindu fascists". His activism, and initial enthusiasm for the Congress maintained its momentum until 1905. But his inner contradictions with the Congress brand of politics is obvious in his "Ghare Baire/Home and Outside" - where he severely criticizes not only Congress activists but also their style of functioning. In fact in his novel, he makes the "Swadeshi" leader the ultimate villain - someone who is greedy, and out to grab what does not belong to him - anothers wife, another's wealth, one who casually betrays faith and trust of friends, admirers, and followers. Rabindranath also shows his displeasure with the "foreign goods boycott" call, by noting the negative economic effect it has on the poor traders - and mainly "Muslim" ones to boot - in the same novel. Now should we use this characterization blanket in support of demonizing all Swadeshi activists of the time?

Two other aspects, he is blindly and selectively quoted to support a particular impression.

First his apparent opposition to "Hindu" "orthodoxy and narrowmindedness". Now, there has been speculation from the actual marriage patterns in his generation, and even his children, that they probably never abandoned the Brahmin caste based marital injunctions even after formally declaring for the "Brahmo". But more importantly, his "Gora/The White" novel reads more like an exposition of arguments for "Hindutva" rather than against it - the arguments against "orthodoxy" are tame and weak throughout the novel. The apparent change of heart in the protagonist only happens at the end - and that too not on philosophical grounds. It happens because his "Hinduism" by descent is questioned when he i stold that he was not the biological son of his father but an orphaned European child rescued by his adoptive "Hindu Indian" father during the "Mutiny". And the novel does not make it clear that he "leaves" his orthodoxy completely - but he simply drops one part of his orthodoxy. He was previously resistant to the affections of a "Brahmo" girl and he simply drops that resistance. Interestingly, in almost all "love triangles" he describes involving "Brahmo girls" and "Hindu and Brahmo men", the "Brahmo girl" always falls for the "Hindu man". Probably a close parallel to how in published novels like that even in Salman Rushdie, or Bollywood nowadays, the "Hindu girl" always falls for the "Muslim man" - but almost never the other way round.

Now should we generalize this to mean that the author had gone against all aspects of "Hindu orthodoxy"? Or for that matter, the he was rooting for showing that "Brahmo men" were all rejectable wimps to the "Brahmo girls" who should go for "orthodox Hindu"?

Second, his apparent opposition to "bloodshed and violence". His best collection of arguments in favour of "violence" is given in a long speech by Raghupati, the temple priest and rajguru of the king of Tripura, Govindamanikya - in the play - "Visarjana". Even here, the arguments against violence are weaker and not based on philosophical ones. The final apparent change comes because of "parental feelings" on loss of a beloved disciple.

Having said that, there is no dearth of "violence and bloodshed". In Visarjana itself, "blood sacrifice" is offered. But Rabindranath makes it more of a "self-sacrifice" every time, but he does not necessarily avoid militancy or violence. The Russian Revolution of 1917 and the consequent civil war was one of the bloodiest of 20th century revolutions. But here is what Rabindranath has to write about it: (Letters from Russia)

"If I had not come to Russia, life's pilgrimage would have remained incomplete.

The cry of Russian Revolution is the cry of the world. At least this nation of all others in the world today is thinking of the interest of all humanity, over and above the national interest. It would have been unpardonable not to see the light of the greatest sacrificial fire known in history."

"Let the theologians of other countries condemn Soviet Russia...but I cannot condemn her and I do not.."

Thus Rabindranath was okay with what was needed to bring the "Russian revolution" about as a necessary "sacrificial fire". Should we then generalize this to show that he would agree with "violence and bloodshed" if it was in the interest of "all humanity"?

[RayC]

It is all fine.

Explain which poet, author is not complex?

I assure you that there will many who have read Tagore as much as you have! Maybe they are too shy to exhibit their knowledge that you have no shyness to do!

[brihaspati]

Clarification was asked for my request to supply context of quotes from Rabindranath. So I simply explained giving examples. If responding to questions is deemed showing off of knowledge, thats fine. Probably it is much better than showing off without knowledge.

I really wonder about the real problem here! Is it some kind of inferiority complex that drives these repeated irrelevant quibs about "showing off/book reading/etc"? In that case it is not my problem, and and let us not make it a common problem. Unfortunately, I do remember most of his writings word for word. I have had formal connections to his "university", and been formally and rigorously trained and completed degrees in his "music" and "drama". Raghupati's speech (as well as Jayasignha and Govindamanyikya which also I played) is known by heart because I played the character many times on public performances. It is not my fault that I have pretty good automatic memory and can recall page after page from material I had once looked at with interest. That is how I do remember "Gora" also.

RayC,
Please leave behind your psychological baggage. Unlike you I do not show off. There is very little of my personal qualifications or associations or activities that you know of, because I have not boasted about them, and on which you assume a great deal on which you base your glib attacks.

[RayC]

No, it is not any psychological problem that afflicts me.

It is just that when I have quoted something, there is no reason for you to act cute.

Be straight and quit acting 'smart' and slippery!

Got the message.

You have already been requested by Ramana to be a wee bit less verbose and meandering so that others can understand what you are trying to get at.

A quote from Rabindranath requires a treatise from you starting innocently with a 'request'? If you have to pen a treatise on Rabindranath, please do so, but surely that does not require you to act coy and try to link it up in so 'innocent' a way.

I daresay you are not important enough for me to know your background.

If one has a background, then one can reveal it. If one doesn't reveal it, then does it matter? I wonder why one should be shy of revealing rather than acting coy even on that score. Talk of it obliquely but never straight!

I have nothing to hide or in being straight.

I do not know Tagore word for word and that is immaterial. You are connected to his university, and may I say I am connected to him in a manner of speaking though I have never seen him. But what of it? He was a great person, I am nowhere to even dream of being even in his shadows!

And why ridicule Rabindranath that he wrote everything under the sun as if it were something he should not have done and should have stuck to a groove. How do I understand poets and artists? That would be revealing more about my background, so let us leave it at that.

[brihaspati]

ah yes, consistency is never your forte. Just in the previous post you have accused me of not being "shy enough" and now you are accusing me of being "coy". I have tried to minimize my responses to your unnecessary personal aspersions. But you never let go of personal attacks. This is perhaps how you do battles - I don't know. But this is not constructive debating for me. If you have to contradict or deconstruct my arguments please restrict your attempts to the arguments themselves and not to me in person. I have seen many with your attitude adorning the corridors of power. Small men with inflated awareness of their own stature. It is simply tiring to deal with it all over again.

You must have the sense to realize the caution I was urging about quoting Rabindranath indiscriminately, as already on a GDF thread we have naturally expected references to the actual context of the writing of the national anthem. Do you really want such discussions to turn up for your favourite poet?

Ramanaji's suggestions were well taken because unlike you he is not out fighting personal demons as a Don Quixote. Moreover, as you must be noticing, your comments aimed at the person detracts from the main issues of the debate. As a mod you are obviously above the control and restraint urged on ordinary posters. But I sincerely hope you quit this sort of personal attacks.

[ramana]

No replying to each other for two weeks. Thanks, ramana

[Airavat]

If Mirpuris were in the BIA and I knew about it, I would surely info.

As far as I know, there were no Mirpuri Regiment or companies, squadron and batteries.

There are no specific district-based regiments, and recruitment into the BIA was not restricted to the British provinces, it also covered the many princely states.

A short list of Muslims from western Jammu region of J&K State who fought in WWII:

MUHAMMAD, Sepoy, 789593. 21 Mule Coy. Royal Indian Army Service Corps. 8th May 1943. Age 22. Son of Bhag and Hussaini, of Kajtoor, Mirpur, Kashmir.

MUHAMMAD AFSAR, Sepoy, 16065. 1st Royal Bn. 9th Jat Regiment. 22nd February 1942. Age 23. Son of Tata Khan and Thima; husband of Muhammad Noor, of Chak, Mirpur, Kashmir.

MUHAMMAD AFSAR, Sepoy, 31789. 3rd Bn. 14th Punjab Regiment. 16th May 1944. Age 24. Son of Sher Muhammad; husband of Nawab Bibi, of Mang, Poonch, Kashmir.

MUHAMMAD AFSAR, Sepoy, 20533. 4th Bn. 7th Rajput Regiment. 10th September 1944. Age 24. Son of Moghal Khan and Rusmat Bibi, of Bagera, Poonch, Kashmir.

MUHAMMAD AKBAR, Sepoy, 800724. 63 Mule Coy. Royal Indian Army Service Corps. 24th March 1944. Age 27. Son of Muhammad Ali, and of Hashmat Bibi, of Tafarabad, Muzaffarabad, Kashmir,.

MUHAMMAD ALAM, Lance Naik, 47589. Royal Bombay Sappers and Miners. 11th June 1944. Age 24. Son of Hassan Muhammad and Kesar Bibi; husband of Phatma, of Arha, Mirpur, Kashmir.

MUHAMMAD ASHRAF, Rifleman, 36268. 3rd Bn. 6th Rajputana Rifles. 27th November 1944. Age 19. Son of Barkat Ali and Ali Begum, of Baring, Mirpur, Kashmir.

And now for some Hindus and Sikhs from Western Jammu:

KAILO RAM, Sepoy, 9000. 5th Bn. 17th Dogra Regiment. 15th December 1942. Age 20. Son of Gian Chand and Jamna, of Dewa (Adhowali), Mirpur, Kashmir.

KAKA RAM, Sepoy, 13784. 1st Bn. 17th Dogra Regiment. 1st February 1943. Age 26. Son of Kahna and Gango; husband of Shahni, of Deeng, Mirpur, Kashmir.

KAKA SINGH, Driver, 35462. 8 Bty., 23 Mountain Regt. Royal Indian Artillery. 21st January 1943. Age 31. Son of Sundar Singh; husband of Indar Kaur, of Sakarana, Mirpur, Kashmir.

KALA RAM, Sepoy, 27027. 16th Bn. 10th Baluch Regiment. 22nd November 1944. Age 23. Son of Gulaba Ram and Lal Dei, of Mang, Poonch, Kashmir.

KALYAN SINGH, Naik, 103156. 2 Field Regt. Royal Indian Artillery. 9th April 1945. Age 21. Son of Atar Singh and Dropadi, of Saithan, Poonch, Kashmir.

GIAN CHAND, Sepoy, 22131. M.G. Bn. 12th. Frontier Force Regiment. 4th May 1944. Age 31. Son of Sundar and Radhi; husband of Biru Devi, of Nangial, Mirpur, Kashmir.

GIAN CHAND, Sepoy, 21751. 4th Bn. 12th. Frontier Force Regiment. 21st June 1944. Age 20. Son of Sant Ram and Manijam, of Saikhsar, Mirpur, Kashmir.

GIAN CHAND, Lance Naik, 21148. 14th Bn. 13th. Frontier Force Rifles. 13th February 1945. Age 22. Son of Raju and Isharu; husband of Budi, of Chhamb Sarkina, Mirpur, Kashmir.

More such men from western Jammu can be searched here: Roll of Honour

[RayC]

The issue was:

Mirpuris from the BIA were the first to take arms against Hindus and Sikhs.

Did they while they were serving in the British Indian Army?

How many Mirpuris were in the British Indian Army?

Indeed, there would be Mirpuris as there would be Assamese, Bengalis, Oriyas and Gujaratis, but they were scattered and not recognised as a Group/ Class.

It is also correct that the Indian Army was not confined to areas controlled by the British alone, but also from the Princely States.

And Acharya is right that the Mirpuris are spearheading the Azadi call in UK.

[RayC]

No one has put any slur of disloyalty. It was originally simply stated as pointer to my observation that service in the army may appear to give an impression of non-communality in beliefs and motivations. But if service does not guarantee continuation of such behaviour post-service, then the prior non-communality becomes open to suspicion. Was it really sincere or simply an overt behaviour as a result of special circumstances? Since there are few changes of faith officially recorded (or available officially) "out" of the birth-Abrahamic in servicemen, if there is a reversal to more communal behaviour post-service - it may simply mean that the whole communal thing was there all the time underlying - all the while the overt non-communal behaviour was going on.

Non communality in motivation and belief cannot be constructed in a vacuum. It has to be viewed with inputs of time and place that constructs the environment prevalent.

The immediate social environment impacts on such beliefs and motivation. Thus, while in service, because of the immediate environment, it holds true, (non communality and religious harmony). To believe that it would be in perpetuity when the environment changes i.e. at home or when de-mobilised (especially since soldiers of those days were total illiterate and not aware of the world) would be a trifle naïve! Even today, people who serve in Central services have a far accommodating attitude towards each other of different community and religion than those who have never gone beyond their State border. To believe that those who are in Central Services, when home on leave, would not be influenced by their peers, relations and the environment in their home State would, in my opinion, be fallacious a belief.

One cannot understand the co-relationship between ‘few changes of faith officially recorded (or available officially) "out" of the birth-Abrahamic in servicemen’ and communality and religious harmony in the Indian Army of that time! Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians et al coexisted without strife and without changing religion! Of course, I could be wrong in understanding what has been written. It (the sentence and the thought) is too complex in construct to understand!

the "communal" during pre-Partition and those who supposedly are current exponents of Indic/Hindutva/"Santan Dharma" on this forum are almost separated by 50 years. We were not comparing two generations separated by almost 50 years.

The comparison of the sentiments of the Pre Partition days with the fervour of the Indic etc of today is not a question of how many years separate, but the issue is of ‘fervour’ i.e. intensity of feeling and not the issue of age!

Credibility depends on perception. Moreover, the statement whether "Hindu means Indianness" was not the issue of debate this time.

It was given as an example to highlight perceptions.

Before formal accession, Poonchi Muslims were technically still not Pakistanis. I thought some people here did not automatically associate all Muslims on the subcontinent with Pakistan or as Pakistanis. The uprising by Poonchi Muslim demobbed soldiers started in the spring of 1947, at a time when J&K was still a princely state. Of a total of 71,667 men from J&K who served in the BIA during WWII, 60,402 were Poonchi Muslims.

The issue under debate is the contention that the Muslims helped the British to start the Kashmir adventure.

In Poonch a rebellion against Dogra rule, based essentially on economic grievances (food prices and taxes), was encouraged to take on a 'Muslim vs Hindu' character a result of the killings in Punjab and Jammu. Further encouragement came from the direction of the North-West Frontier Province (Pashtonkawa). Pathans angered by reports of Muslim deaths went to Poonch seeking revenge against Hindus and Sikhs.
Role of Poonchis
It will be observed that events within India did affect the periphery.

De-mobbed soldiers added to the clout. But then demobbed soldiers were not under orders of the British either! Take the case of Gen Shahbeg Singh and his joining Bindrenwala. Can the govt of that day be accused of being instrumental influencing him just because he served in the IA? Too farfetched!

According to some historians, there never existed anything called a "Hindu" - it was always a motley collection of sects constantly fighting each other. In any case, if someone believes that the statements like "Hindu means Indianness" are facetious, then the category of "Hindu" should not be relevant for discussions of "Indian" identity, and any fracture in the "Hindu" should also be irrelevant for the "Indian" "unification" project. If "Hindu" is not a core part of the national identity - any fracture in that identity should not weaken the nation.

As far as I know, the Chinese do not make everyone a "Han". They maintain literal and strict definitions of ethnicities distinct from the "Han". It does grate a bit on the ear, to hear "RN Tagore esq". If it is the RN Tagore Snr - then he returned his "Sir" to the British. The son, who would have the same abbreviation was never offered the title.

I will confess that this Hindu/ Hinduvta/ Indic/ Bharatiya/Abrahamic/ non Abrahamic/ etc does confuse since there are so many interpretations to it being bandied. I prefer ‘Indian’ since it is neutral in content and it does not divide society per se into narrow confines of distrust and acrimony. We have to progress and unless we are ‘one’, we will be swamped once again!

If you are not aware of Hans making all as Hans, then do read beyond your area of specialisation. Understand Legalism and the history of China and Ethnology. I have quoted enough on this very forum to repeat once again.

Esq may appear archaic and grating, but I prefer not to use this ‘ji’ which is bandied for a filmstar to a politician. And the best part, it lacks sincerity. Neither do I like the word, Madam – a good word that has been so badly misused that it sounds a wee bit obscene!

[Airavat]

Indeed, there would be Mirpuris as there would be Assamese, Bengalis, Oriyas and Gujaratis, but they were scattered and not recognised as a Group/ Class.

There is no precedent for the inhabitants of a single district or town to be recognised as a group/class.

Hence Mirpuris, Poonchis, Muzaffrabadis, all living along the Western Jammu belt were classed together as Punjabi Muslims, even though they are not Punjabi-speakers per se and have their own local languages.

Please see Punjabi Musalmans:

The term Punjabi Musalmans roughly describes those Muslim Classes and Tribes which are to be found in that portion of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province which lies between the Indus and the Sutlej Rivers to the South of the main Himalayan Range. This includes Hazara District, portion of Jammu and Poonch (Kashmir territory), and the Hill Tracts of Rawalpindi District.

And curiously Hindu inhabitants of the same region in Western Jammu, and even members of the same clan, were classed as Dogras. For example Muslim Chibs are classed as Punjabis but Hindu Chibs are regarded as Dogras.

In Poonch a rebellion against Dogra rule..... Pathans angered by reports of Muslim deaths went to Poonch seeking revenge against Hindus and Sikhs.

Well what else do you expect to find in a Marxist website, which quote extensively from the tripe written by Alastair "the Pakistani goat" Lamb???

The sequence for the Pakistani invasion of J&K State is:

1) August 1947: Infiltration of Muslim League volunteers into Western Jammu and the distribution of arms, raising communal propaganda.

2) September 1947: Economic blockade of the state by Pakistan to deprive the State Forces of essential munition and fuel supplies.

3) October 1947: Cross-border raids and infiltration of regular Pakistani troops leading to the exhaustion of fuel and munition supplies and the besieging of the State Forces in Poonch, Rawlakot, Kotli, Mirpur, and other places.

4) October 22 1947: The "tribal raid" into the Kashmir region of J&K State led by the Pakistan army.

[RayC]

Indeed, there would be Mirpuris as there would be Assamese, Bengalis, Oriyas and Gujaratis, but they were scattered and not recognised as a Group/ Class.

There is no precedent for the inhabitants of a single district or town to be recognised as a group/class.

Hence Mirpuris, Poonchis, Muzaffrabadis, all living along the Western Jammu belt were classed together as Punjabi Muslims, even though they are not Punjabi-speakers per se and have their own local languages.

Please see Punjabi Musalmans:

The term Punjabi Musalmans roughly describes those Muslim Classes and Tribes which are to be found in that portion of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province which lies between the Indus and the Sutlej Rivers to the South of the main Himalayan Range. This includes Hazara District, portion of Jammu and Poonch (Kashmir territory), and the Hill Tracts of Rawalpindi District.

And curiously Hindu inhabitants of the same region in Western Jammu, and even members of the same clan, were classed as Dogras. For example Muslim Chibs are classed as Punjabis but Hindu Chibs are regarded as Dogras.

In Poonch a rebellion against Dogra rule..... Pathans angered by reports of Muslim deaths went to Poonch seeking revenge against Hindus and Sikhs.

Well what else do you expect to find in a Marxist website, which quote extensively from the tripe written by Alastair "the Pakistani goat" Lamb???

The sequence for the Pakistani invasion of J&K State is:

1) August 1947: Infiltration of Muslim League volunteers into Western Jammu and the distribution of arms, raising communal propaganda.

2) September 1947: Economic blockade of the state by Pakistan to deprive the State Forces of essential munition and fuel supplies.

3) October 1947: Cross-border raids and infiltration of regular Pakistani troops leading to the exhaustion of fuel and munition supplies and the besieging of the State Forces in Poonch, Rawlakot, Kotli, Mirpur, and other places.

4) October 22 1947: The "tribal raid" into the Kashmir region of J&K State led by the Pakistan army.

Like others who have anecdotal issues, so do I.

I happen to have had parent and relations who were there in the War and so, Marxists link or otherwise, I am aware to some extent of the background.

Indeed, it was the Pakistani Army that was not only abetting but was there itself!

Mirpuris speak Potwari language, which is considered by some to be a dialect of Punjabi. Gujjars also speak a language akin to Punjabi.

As the classification is skewed, so is the history!

But then I can't vouch for authenticity since they are all dead to give more details.

Take it for what it is worth or reject. Does not really affect me!

I am not here for winning Brownie points either!

Nonetheless, you post is worth noting!

[brihaspati]

ramanaji,
I thought you instructed "no replying to each other" for two weeks. Is there a different set of rules for rules to be broken by RayC? Am I allowed to reply to the previous post of RayC or should it be deleted?

[ramana]

You may reply but only if there are no personal remarks. I dont want the Forum mahoul to go down. Try to understand.

[RayC]

ramanaji,
I thought you instructed "no replying to each other" for two weeks. Is there a different set of rules for rules to be broken by RayC? Am I allowed to reply to the previous post of RayC or should it be deleted?

I am sure it does not mean on ridiculous posts!

All it means no personal stuff.

Got that, old boy?

Brains should not be at a premium!

I would also like to state that even though I am a Moderator, I have not used it against you. So, quit howling like an idiot!

So quit acting like a spoilt child!

Try smart movements and you will vanish!

[brihaspati]

RayC wrote
One cannot understand the co-relationship between ‘few changes of faith officially recorded (or available officially) "out" of the birth-Abrahamic in servicemen’ and communality and religious harmony in the Indian Army of that time! Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians et al coexisted without strife and without changing religion! Of course, I could be wrong in understanding what has been written. It (the sentence and the thought) is too complex in construct to understand!

Context was that there have been little or no records of conversions out of the birth-Abrahamic faith post service. Therefore the possibility cannot be excluded that Abrahamic "communality" is simply suppressed or repressed while on service but does re-emerge under appropriate "encouragements". So being in the BIA was no guarantee of erasure of Islamism. This was the statement - nothing more nothing less, and pretty straightforward I think.

The comparison of the sentiments of the Pre Partition days with the fervour of the Indic etc of today is not a question of how many years separate, but the issue is of ‘fervour’ i.e. intensity of feeling and not the issue of age!

Fervour of such widely separated generations cannot be compared realistically. They are separated by a whole lot of cumulative experience. Moreover, connecting two such entirely different historical experiences is problematic. Did Hindus and Muslims of pre-Partition Punjab and Bengal deserve the violent hatred fanned by "religious fervour" from the Islamic? Or was there any reason for "Islamic fervour" to at all arise in such forms? Was there really any "religious provocation"?

On the other hand it appears that it was more "a political provocation" and "political fervour" which took the peculiar form of "religious fervour" because politics and religion is not separated in the Islamism. It was not "religious fervour" which justified atrocities, but atrocities undertaken for specific political and biological gain that justified "religious fervour".

The "religious fervour" of the current generations is not motivated by such "undertaken atrocities". For this generation has not seen the scale of violence unleashed by the Abrahamic directly. Nor is it close enough generationally to the Mughal period - when non-Muslim families would remember what Islamic rule entailed for many non-Muslims. Neither has there been large scale violence on "Kashmiri Muslims" by non-Muslims in the 80's that justified the start of the militant campaign of terror on the Pundits in the Valley.

Thus this generation's fervour is more "faith/religion" generated, and different in origins and nature, compared to the 40's. This could not be written in more compact form according to my estimate.

If you are not aware of Hans making all as Hans, then do read beyond your area of specialisation. Understand Legalism and the history of China and Ethnology. I have quoted enough on this very forum to repeat once again.

Ethnicities and identities and their rigorous modelling is indeed part of my area of research. I have a longstanding interest in China. Hans do not try to make all ethnicities "Hans". Officially, the People's Republic of China (PRC) recognizes 55 ethnic minority groups within China in addition to the Han majority. As of the mid-2000's, the combined population of officially recognised minority groups numbered at 123.33 million, comprising 9.44% of mainland China and Taiwan's total population. In addition to these officially recognized ethnic minority groups, there are PRC nationals who privately classify themselves as members of unrecognized ethnic groups (such as Jewish, Tuvan, Oirat and Ili Turki). There are specific political and social difficulties in making all "Chinese" "Hans", and the CCP has long acknowledged this problem, as early as the 1930's.

Esq may appear archaic and grating, but I prefer not to use this ‘ji’ which is bandied for a filmstar to a politician. And the best part, it lacks sincerity. Neither do I like the word, Madam – a good word that has been so badly misused that it sounds a wee bit obscene!

Rabindranath was awarded the Knighthood formally and therefore a "Sir" for a time. "Esquire" was more honourable than a "gentleman" but less than a "Knighthood". Older associations were as "assistants/aides/servants" to "knights". So calling him an "Esquire" seemed uncalled for, especially since he also returned the "Knighthood" thereby indicating his reluctance to be associated with titles of British origin.

[brihaspati]

ramanaji
please explain

I am sure it does not mean on ridiculous posts!

Does it mean that personal attacks can be undertaken depending on what an individual considers as "ridiculous" post?

All it means no personal stuff.

The "personal" word was not included in your first post. It was clarified later.

Got that, old boy?

please explain who on this forum have the right to call others "old boy" and that such epithets cannot be considered a personal insult or derogatory, even if already requested once before not to use towards me.

Brains should not be at a premium!

Does this or not constitute a personal aspersion?

I would also like to state that even though I am a Moderator, I have not used it against you. So, quit howling like an idiot!
So quit acting like a spoilt child!

Please explain, whether "howling like an idiot" or "spoilt child" is not considered a personal insult or derogatory. If it is free to be used by a given individual, is it also allowed to be used by other posters?

Try smart movements and you will vanish!

Please specify, whether this is an official threat or what it really means. As it stands it can mean anything from personal physical liquidation to banning from BRF.

[brihaspati]

One of the curiosities we need to explore about the recent increased public debates about the so-called "China-threat", especially the apparent threat from the east, is that we can see two opposing positions emerge which we have never seen before.

MEA minister of state, Shri Tharoor indicates in the media that the "media" is perhaps "overreacting". There is now a sharp split within "experts" about assessment of the threat. This sort of comment about the media indicating serious difference of opinion was previosuly unseen where the UPA-GOI and the media or experts opinions were concerned. The media has of course high levels of linkages to business and big capitalist interests. Which way are the big capitalists swinging? Could they be swinging towards doing business with China? Is what we are seeing a degree of conflict of interest between "Big" and "small" capitalists?

The Tatas appear not to have given up entirely on a "red" WB. However this could be asimple business tactic to recover investments and hence promise soft rewards. But overall we have no analysis of where the big-capital sympathies are turning to.

[Hari Seldon]

b-ji,

Appreciate your inputs and POV and all that you have contributed to this forum. Kindly don't let flame-baits, the crude and amateurish ones especially, sidetrack your line of reasoning.

[RayC]

ramanaji
please explain

I am sure it does not mean on ridiculous posts!

Does it mean that personal attacks can be undertaken depending on what an individual considers as "ridiculous" post?

All it means no personal stuff.

The "personal" word was not included in your first post. It was clarified later.

Got that, old boy?

please explain who on this forum have the right to call others "old boy" and that such epithets cannot be considered a personal insult or derogatory, even if already requested once before not to use towards me.

Brains should not be at a premium!

Does this or not constitute a personal aspersion?

I would also like to state that even though I am a Moderator, I have not used it against you. So, quit howling like an idiot!
So quit acting like a spoilt child!

Please explain, whether "howling like an idiot" or "spoilt child" is not considered a personal insult or derogatory. If it is free to be used by a given individual, is it also allowed to be used by other posters?

Try smart movements and you will vanish!

Please specify, whether this is an official threat or what it really means. As it stands it can mean anything from personal physical liquidation to banning from BRF.

Let me explain. Not that anyone has asked me to do so.


First of all, as a gentleman, the word used by me is not correct and so my apologies.

Old boy is not derogatory. It is almost like the new tara
fickling 'dude' that is so widely used. Generation gap, I presume.

I am a Moderator, and yet I have never used that as a weapon. If I did, there are many ways to ensure distaste for some one can be used in many ways. I cannot be held guilty on that count by anyone.

If I did, I could lead you up the garden path! That is not my way of doing things. Let 100 flowers bloom is my credo since one is not Buddha!

I have given you your due where you deserve. There is much to learn from your posts, but it is my request that you don't go overboard!

Let us learn and educate!

Where it exasperate is that you seem to be insinuate and leave it open. There are posters who would applaud that. Nothing unusual. But I prefer to know more of an issue than what pleases my heart. Take the issue of big business at work in your post. What remains unanswered is that 'big business' and Tatas are responsible for the chaos on the borders. You maybe right. But then spell it out!

If it is a JÁccuse, then why fight shy to say how?

I will also not hesitate to state the ever since I have commented on the Hinduvta/Indic/ Bharatiya etc stuff, there has been quite a sea change! Will I get cowed down? No.

The Hinduvta Brigade is at work!

Personally, it does not matter. I am but an Indian and a proud one at that!

[Sanku]

The post by RayC is a refreshing change in the till then interactions, B-ji I am sure that all of us here including RayC appreciate your efforts, sometimes minor issues create major disagreement (and I have closely followed your interactions since the beginning so I know the roots of misunderstanding)

May I request both of you to start by being careful with one another in the sense of being explicit about the disagreements on issues and stay away from open ended statements about the other (I for one agree that in many cases open ended statements about issues are needed while expressing oneself) which leave the room open for confusion.

I hope that you gentlemen would have stormy but civil debates continuing forward and the battle of ideas would not need to cease because of the fear of it becoming battle of persons. That way we lose much learning.

Thanks for bothering with this humble request.

[RayC]

It will be interesting to note that the posts of the gentleman in the Bengal history thread is most illuminating and worth reading!

I am educated and I am learning my roots from them. Ramana is another person who has much to teach.

I remain indebted.

By problem is complex sentences and thoughts (possibly for lack of space) and open ended stuff. It tantalises and yet does not satiate the curiosity. A very frustrating situation!

[Sanku]

I will also not hesitate to state the ever since I have commented on the Hinduvta/Indic/ Bharatiya etc stuff, there has been quite a sea change! Will I get cowed down? No.

The Hinduvta Brigade is at work!

This too is a very open ended statement , care to be explain in detail.

[RayC]

I will also not hesitate to state the ever since I have commented on the Hinduvta/Indic/ Bharatiya etc stuff, there has been quite a sea change! Will I get cowed down? No.

The Hinduvta Brigade is at work!

This too is a very open ended statement , care to be explain in detail.

My feeling!

I have not faced so much of hostile 'media' attention as of now!

[brihaspati]

Hari-ji and Sanku-ji,

thank you for your kind words. It is alright. I guess different issues and "warring" styles are at loggerheads. It is preferable to do battle on ones chosen place and time, and not be drawn into a war of another's choice. Please do understand that it is still a difficult task to reign my temper in, even though I have left my teenage years behind - but I try my best to rein myself in. If required, I would always be prepared to work with even my worst personal enemy - if it helps me to achieve my targets about what I consider my nation, my people, and my culture. I probably have a very acidic tongue that can really hurt when I am angry, and my unqualified apologies to anyone who thinks he has been at the receiving end. But I think I have so far tried sincerely not to initiate personal attacks.

My post about "big-capital" is again not layered with meaning and quite simple. I have actually raised an exploratory question about whether and where "big-capitalists" are leaning about the China issue. It is well known from media leaks, that there appears to be "mutual sympathies" and "convergence of viewpoints" between specific big-capitalists and political leaderships. The same is true between various levels of capitalists and media ownership. I simply raised the question of any possible connection between the current apparent split in opinions in the media and experts on the one hand, and such conflicts of interests among capitalists.

[brihaspati]

Shashi Tharoor's tweet about "cattle class" and "holy cows" is a most revealing theme. Shashi's making the comment shows that he thought he was sending out the comment to an anglicized community which like true-born Englishmen would immediately absorb the pun intended. On the one hand he can dismiss it as a light joke. But what was the message he was actually sending - consciously or subconsciously? Even from the anglicized "Englishmen", "cattle class" would actually sarcastically lament the fate of economy class passengers as of "cattle" being transported. This passenger class is actually compared to cattle even if in a desperate joke.

On the other hand "holy cow" is a similar sarcastic reference that is applied to a wide class of targets - from what is seen as "laughable" ideologies to personalities to themes to institutions. Things or beings which have been made sacrosanct but not really worth it.

His political leadership immediately distanced them from his remarks. Was this another twist in the strange bending of eyesights of our leadership? What was there to be afraid of in his remark? Which part? was it the "cattle class" - but then Sashi was sharing in the "cattlehood"! Also in a country, where for a a large group, "cow" is supposed to be "sacred", there should not be any adverse reaction in being raised to "cow" status! So is his leadership so far detached from the reality of the country that they do not recognize the "sacred" nature of the "cow"? Have they thought about the possibility that if they think equating a human with a cow is insulting or degrading, they are sending out the POV that cow is not "sacred"?

Or if they are reacting to the "holy cow" then what is the objection ? To the "holy"ness of the cow or fearing that Sashi is referring to a lot of institutions and personalities who can be treated as "holy cows" - made untouchable but really not worth it?

Realistically, is Sashi's statement at all politically suicidal for him or for his party? But then again, he was a spokesperson of sorts and the blue-eyed (warning! it is an English expression not to be taken literally! ) boy representing India. An articulate person like him, and given the assumption that he could be trusted with representing India, could make such a public "mistake" that had to be corrected or chastized by one of the most successful parties in Indian politics.

What is the message being sent out? That the "cow" still holds a position of stature in the hearts of our "leadership" who are scared of the negative fallouts of deriding the "cow"? This from an avowedly "secular" frontage?

[JwalaMukhi]

All said and done we got to give it to this guy . I have no doubt in my mind if push comes to shove, Lalu wouldn't flinch for a second to travel in general compartment. But any of the tharoor and SG types would not like to be caught dead anywhere near the 3rd class (err.. should that be cattle class per tharoor) compartments.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/patna/Tra ... 54303.aspx

Rashtriya Janata Dal (RJD) chief Lalu Prasad on Tuesday asked Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and Congress President Sonia Gandhi to inculcate the "Gandhian way of austerity" by travelling in general compartments of trains.

Giving suggestions to people on the issue will not suffice. It should begin from people at the top, including Gandhi and Singh, besides Lok Sabha Speaker Meira Kumar. They should start travelling by trains in third class or general bogies so that the message percolates to the lower level”, he said while addressing a gathering in Patna to mark the death anniversary of former minister Jagdish Prasad.

[RayC]

The Urban Dictionary states:

Short for 'cattle class' which pertains to flying economy class (or 'coach' in America) on a flight. It is called this mainly because many people are crammed into such a small space for an extended period of time and most of the time are treated like animals.

The Free Dictionary states:

holy cow

2. how wonderful "A friend of mine is in Hollywood filming a movie this month." "Holy cow, that must be so cool."

Now, isn’t economy class, even in India, is called the cattle class?

And holy cow could mean surprised ‘real cool’. Could it not?! He was in the US for a long time and so can we feel that he has not been affected by US culture? Given our sycophant and ji huzoor culture, I would be wonderfully surprised if anyone could have the guts to cock a snoot at the High Command!!

And anyway, he has travelled cattle class before even before the High Command ever thought of it. Did he complain?

By the way, who is the aam admi the INC feels will be affected by equating cattle class with them? The urban middle class, urban poor, the rural rich, the rural poor? To travel by air, is still a luxury to the majority of Indians (may not be to the political class) and who are the real aam admi? Do the real aam admi care? All gimmicks.

If the govt or the INC was that keen, why did they not take up Manish Tiwari’s idea of travelling in the cargo hold? He spoke big at a whole lot of talk shows. Now, if he is a man of his word he should travel in the cargo hold, orders or no orders. No one ordered Mahatma Gandhi to wear loin cloth, or did someone? Therefore, should Tiwari not lead the way and be another Mahatma since he pretend to be so moral in everything? What about Nataranjan? If austerity and economy is the watchword, how about coming in sack cloth and ashes to vibe with the real poor? Why wear those fancy clothes?

This type of hypocritical and false idols that they are chasing is making the INC a standing joke!


Lallu is right. Travel General Class in the trains and that is identifying with the aam admi!

Any takers? Not talking about Satabdis!

One wonders if this country is full of cows, holy or otherwise, but I agree we are cattle to be herded or better still we are sheep since we must not use our brains and instead obey fiats!

BTW. I wonder if those who commented against Tharoor understand the English language and its nuances. One must not think in foreign languages or Hindi and then transliterate that thought to understand English! I say this without prejudice since I am confused and worried that the Thought Police we complain of others has caught up with us!! Are we becoming China?

This is scary!

By the way, Garibi has been Hatoed? Heard it for ages. Why also this foolish sloganeering aam admi and other bunk and instead not of really trying to put India on its feet?

[RayC]

PUT YOUR CHINA AWAY
- Why the current debate over austerity rings so false
Sunanda K. Datta-Ray

One of the many stories about Sir Thomas Beecham, the famous English conductor, has him practising with his orchestra when an incredibly tall man slips into the room and sits down in a corner as unobtrusively as he can. “You know the king of Sweden,” Beecham remarks casually without pausing in his conducting but indicating the newcomer. “Norway, actually,” the self-effacing King Haakon VII murmurs from his corner.

Such an episode is inconceivable in India where anyone with the slightest pretension to prominence will bustle late into a crowded hall, march self-importantly up to the front row or high table, and if all the places are already taken, imperiously demand that another chair be brought up even if it blocks the aisle and everyone else’s view. That’s the mark of the arriviste. The sophistication of the old Scots proverb “Wherever Macdonald [head of the eponymous clan] sits, there is the head of the table,” conveying the essence of aristocratic distinction, is beyond the comprehension of our VIPs.

That’s why the current debate over austerity rings so false. The Congress is not to blame. It just happens that being first on the scene, it set the tone for the rest. But the tone it set was determined by much deeper cultural characteristics. Politics is a legitimate career and entitled to its just rewards. But no party of the Right or Left dare concede this because of the power of the myth of selfless service and sacrifice. Krishna Hutheesingh’s account of Allahabad’s original Anand Bhavan being gifted to the nation, and its Dresden and Sevres treasures put away when Motilal Nehru entered politics is the abiding image. It is zealously perpetuated by today’s political operators who, being in politics, can afford Dresden and Sevres but wouldn’t know what to do with either.

When the apolitical Manmohan Singh deplores conspicuous consumption, he is speaking as an economist against unproductive expenditure and as a man of refinement against vulgarity. But when Sonia Gandhi says that “in a country like ours, the kind of ostentatious display of wealth we see is unacceptable”, she is a political tactician reminding party satraps that the aam admi will not vote for them “in a country like ours” (the key words) if they behave like a class apart.

The image is all. Nursing a juice at a cocktail party, the late Biju Patnaik once told me he avoided anything stronger when wearing what Jawaharlal Nehru called “the livery of freedom”. The famous cartoon of a dinner-jacketed Deshapriya (thereby hangs another tale) J.M. Sengupta sipping Scotch while his bearer held out his “meeting ka kapra” (dhoti and kurta) made the point much earlier. Given this obsession, S.M. Krishna and Shashi Tharoor were at fault not for lavishness but for being seen to be lavish. Had simplicity been the true objective, they would not have got away with the own money plea. They would then have been judged guilty of luxurious tastes, accumulating wealth and extravagant spending.

My mother would din into me that nothing was more dishonest than the “honesty is the best policy” adage. Her point was that honesty should be instinctive and without expectation. If it is policy, then it’s calculation. So, too, with austerity. Lee Kuan Yew illustrated that when he told a Bombay audience that Singapore had not abolished the car pennants, revolving lights, sirens and special number plates so beloved of Indians for any moral reason. It had done so because ruling party politicians who flaunt these symbols are easily recognized and identified with governmental failures. They, therefore, tend to lose elections.

Indians are one of the most status-conscious people on earth. Hence the brazen self-assertiveness, described at the beginning, with which prominent citizens trample on the less privileged to muscle their way into the front row. Hence also the story of the carpet in a bureaucrat’s new office being snipped on all sides to match his grade. The recent Congress directive not to use titles implicitly recognized this hierarchical yearning. India’s liquidation of the princely order did not include a general abolition of titles, as in France where ‘baron’ and ‘count’ have been incorporated into names by deed poll. It is not illegal here to address a maharaja as such or as Huzoor or Durbar (other traditional forms), although the imported Highness may need official sanction. Egalitarian affectation at the top will not stop us from creating our own titled elite of lok matas, gurujis, shaheeds, deshaprans, deshabandhus and deshapriyas.

Mahatma naturally crowns the titled heap. Undaunted by Sarojini Naidu’s famous quip, Sonia Gandhi reiterated during the 2007 Satyagraha centenary celebrations the importance of what she called “the Gandhian way”. Now, Lalu Prasad hopes to hoist her with her own petard by demanding (again disregarding the Naidu barb) more visible adherence to the “Gandhian way of austerity.” Economy class flights are not enough; ministers must travel by train. Rahul Gandhi’s pre-emptive gesture of not just train but chair-car provoked Lalu to suggest third-class compartments and unreserved bogies. With elections approaching, we might witness even this parody of austerity.

First-class travel was associated in 1937 with British governors and senior civil servants. It was astute strategy then to urge Congressmen to shun Raj practices and highlight the “marked contrast” between an alien elite and the people’s leaders. Such symbolic gestures invite scorn today. Indians have no need for an example of simple living. Most cannot afford anything else.

The need is for substantive action to cut costs, cleanse politics, invigorate a sagging administration and restore public confidence in governance. We need economy more than austerity. None of those aims will be achieved by rescheduling ministerial travel on circuitous commercial flights or by commandeering railway trains. The former can mean more expense; the latter will subject ordinary passengers to the further harassment of elaborate security arrangements for X-rated VIPs on the move.

Already, the directive to patronize only Air India has pushed up fares: private passengers are not only saddled with the higher cost of their own tickets but must also foot the bill for officials and politicians who travel free. It’s reminiscent of Indira Gandhi’s horse-drawn buggy preceded and followed by cars in first gear, ostensibly to save on petrol. Austerity is reduced to a self-defeating fetish.

It’s a moot point whether the obsession with simplicity began with the “fakir…striding half-naked up the steps of the viceregal palace” or whether he was responding to pre-existing national characteristics. A friend recently sent me an article titled “Why Indians don’t give back to society” whose author, Aakar Patel, cites opportunism, indiscipline, self-aggrandizement, indifference to morality and a “transactional” attitude to god (“I give you this, you give me that”). These attributes explain, according to the author, why “we worship Vishnu, manager of the cosmos, and Siva, its eventual destroyer” but not Brahma the creator. “He has nothing to offer us. What he could do for us, create the universe, he already has. There is no gain in petitioning him now.”

Politicians who would ram what they think is Gandhian austerity down our throats would do well to read Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi on the subject. “Austerity,” he wrote, “implies external renunciation, endurance, and sometimes even hypocrisy.” He much preferred “saintliness” which he called “an inner quality of the soul”. But inner saintliness cannot be imposed by fiat. Nor can it be displayed for public exhibition. Austerity, on the other hand, is threatening to snowball into a countrywide frenzy recalling The Witches of Salem. Even the private sector has fallen prey to a craze that Gandhi thought external and hypocritical and which further distracts attention from the country’s real needs.

sunandadr@yahoo.co.in
http://www.telegraphindia.com/1090919/j ... 512423.jsp

[brihaspati]

If saving money and reducing government expenditure was the aim, a simple across the line budget cut for individual expenses could have been announced and more importantly implemented. And a reminder of the Singaporean logic.

But the question really is a much more fundamental one - do leadership really identify and share in the life of the commons? It is not a question of ostentatious consumption. The philosophy of ostentatious consumption is typically seen in the nuveau riche in every society at all historical periods. Once dominance is established, ostentatious consumption actually is dropped. The reason is to distinguish the established elite from the upcoming nuveau riche. In India the long term dominant elites everywhere had a philosophy of explicitly suppressing ostentatious display.

But the British upset the established elite in most places and created new ones out of their own lackeys - typically a class which in previous generations had not been elite. These new elite behaved like all nuveau riche everywhere - establishing status by display of wealth. Such stories of criminal wastage abound in the early years of British rule. Gangagovinda Singha reportedly dug a pond into which mustard oil was poured for storage during preparations for his mother's funerary rites. (A large degree of propaganda perhaps but containing grains of reality). We do know about the origins of this particular "Singha" family, and we also know how they obained their holdings through manipulation of the British system. These were typical absentee landlords who basically extracted surplus from the soil and spent it lavishly in the city.

The Congress created a new "nuveau riche" class of its own. But the fluid nature of establishment and the uncertainty due to the whims of the "first family" creates problems. Perhaps a very similar process to that of the paranoia of Mughals. Where jagirdaris were constantly being shifted around. And positions were dependent on the temporary whiff of wind flowing in the chambers of the autocrat. This led jagirdars to accummulate rapaciously. This destroyed the sustenance of the land, drove the peasantry out from the land in a desperate bid for survival and escape from enslavement.

Establishment of dominance and status by display of wealth is facilitated by a small intermediate group of "courtiers" and "mosahibs" who have no other way of earning. Their survival depends on latching on to a juicy piece of the pie. Their relationship with the juicy piece is that of symbiosis. They provide the loud din and voice of support and illusion of popularity that can confuse the larger population into thinking that this "new jagirdar" is perhaps really "popular".

Only if the commons are able to shake off the false impression that "wealth" means "power" and therefore the potential for "coercion" can we get out of this. But this brings us to the question of "values". A "thorny" one, as evident many times on this thread.

[RayC]

There are many who have not much of wealth, but who are beyond the reach of law, for whatever be the reason, are those who are feared the most. They are the power beyond those who are supposed to have power!

Maoists, for instance!

Chattisgarh, Jharkhand and the tribal areas of Bengal would bear witness!

The local goons of the CPM and Trinumul in Bengal are also excellent examples of goondaism covered by political clout!

Now, if these are the ways the leaders keep themselves in power, how will the public ever believe that they are being austere and progressive!

I maybe wrong, but what is the reason that the Indian public is cynical about politicians and what they say or do?

Were they so of Mahatma Gandhi or leaders of that time?

[Karna_A]

If saving money and reducing government expenditure was the aim, a simple across the line budget cut for individual expenses could have been announced and more importantly implemented. And a reminder of the Singaporean logic.
.

Individual expenses are irrelevant in the bigger picture.
Travelling by economy class and trains in being Penny wise and Pound foolish.

In fact I would rather have all the Ministers and Bureaucrats travel by their own special planes, but deliver on what they are supposed to do, than travel by economy and not deliver on their main functions.

There are numerous examples of the Great Indian Waste Machine. Free electricity to farmers which results in water logging and depletion of underwater resources, wastage on a few big dams when numerous small earthern embankments could do better, thousands of crores of benami land by politicians, unaccounted Swiss bank accounts.

(a) Delhi gets more water per Caipta than Paris. But it does not reach the residents as 50% is lost in faulty pipes and leaks. Some is lost in thefts. Hence the resultant need to buy Bisleri at exorbitant rates. I'll not be surprised if the Bottled water companies give money to politicians NOT to fix the water system.
I would rather have the best Delhi Municipal employees sent on a first class holiday to anywhere in world, if they can actually deliver and fix the problems in water transportation. A true story from Bihar as below is very illuminating where Govt employees were provided with free foreign trips, that if any govt. org really performs, it can do wonders, no matter if the rewards are equally meaningful.
Let the politicians and bureaucrats who deliver have a first class life as no point in saving tens of crores and waste thousands of crores.

http://www.indiatogether.org/2009/jul/eco-bridge.htm

Bihar's bridges, way to a new work culture
In a state dreaded for its work culture environment and record of poor public entrepreneurship, the Bihar Rajya Pul Nirman Nigam, which was on the verge of being liquidated, has now turned the corner and built over 330 bridges in three years. Ramesh Menon chronicles the inspiring journey.


29 July 2009 - If you want to see the new change in Bihar, walk into the office of the Bihar Rajya Pul Nirman Nigam or the Bihar State Bridge Construction Corporation Limited. It is a sleek office, well kept and clean, has a committee room and a visitor’s lounge and even a gym. But that is just the icing on the cake. What should catch your attention are the statistics of the work done.

The corporation has in the last three years constructed more bridges than Bihar did in the last 30 years! Since 1975, the corporation had constructed 330 bridges. In three years, 336 bridges have been inaugurated. In fact, on 11th June, Chief Minister Nitesh Kumar inaugurated 140 bridges in one symbolic gesture in Patna.

Bhakra Nala Bridge, Saharsa. Pic: Bihar Bridge Construction Corporation Limited.

Today, this government company is the biggest taxpayer in eastern India. When the Kosi floods struck, it made a contribution of Rs. 20 crore to the Chief Minister’s Relief Fund. Reliance was the second biggest contributor: Rs. 9 crore.

How was this possible? Was this not supposed to be a state where in stereotyped public perception, nothing ever moved, sanctioned projects abandoned and funds siphoned off by government officials and contractors? But look at the working of this arm of the new Bihar government and you will see how with some determination and focus even comatose government companies could rise and flourish.

When Pratyaya Amrit, a 1991 batch IAS officer was called to Patna in April 2006 from New Delhi by the new Nitish Kumar government to take over as chairman of the corporation, he had mixed feelings. He was getting used to being a bureaucrat in Delhi and wondered what the move meant. He was the personal secretary to Civil Aviation Minister, Praful Patel. The first feeling when he walked into his office complex at Patna, was nauseating. The office was dirty and unkempt. Files were carelessly thrown around, cakes of dust everywhere, the floor cracked, furniture broken and doors and windows in a bad shape. The morale of employees was at an all time low and the only thing they worried about was whether the loss-making corporation would be shut down. Salaries were not being paid on time. In fact, the former government of Rabri Devi had initiated steps to liquidate the loss-making corporation.

Amrit found his room was no better. One senior IAS officer who came to wish him well was so shocked at the state of his room that he asked him if he could help him to try and get him a better posting. “At that point of time, I told myself that one gets a couple of opportunities in your career and when it comes you must take the bull by the horn.” says Pratyaya Amrit. For him, this was the moment.

One of the first things he did was to order a clean up of the office as it was vital to create a new atmosphere. Then, he took off on his first field visit to Katunjha in Sitamarhi to inspect the work there. He could not believe what he saw. Very little work had been done on a bridge though it had been sanctioned 15 years ago. First move: He got the engineer transferred for non-performance. Second move: At the site, he announced the date for the bridge’s inauguration.

Officials accompanying him were too shocked to react. They wondered how it could be completed so fast. He warned that serious consequences would follow if the deadline were not met. As planned, the bridge was inaugurated on 19th April 2007. One thing was clear to the chairman of the corporation: He had a staff that could deliver if they had deadlines. The Katunjha Bridge changed so many things. Floods cut off Sitamarhi district almost six months a year. It used to take around 13 hours to reach Patna. Now with the bridge in operation, it takes about three and a half hours. “In many ways, Katunjha was a turning point in the life of the corporation as engineers believed they could do what seems impossible,” says Amrit.

His second site visit was to Arrah. This was another astounding shock. Here, the bridge was completed but it could not be used, as there were no approach roads connecting it. The bridge just stood there. “I could not believe what I saw,” he said. He was so angry that he transferred the junior engineer who was posted there. He had worked there for 27 years. He ordered for roads to be made after fixing a deadline: October 2006, even earlier that the deadline he had given for the Katunjha bridge.

Rewarding the hard working

He got Chief Minister Nitish Kumar to inaugurate both the bridges. It was to send a message that he meant serious business and deadlines had to be met. The Chief Minister was so glad to see the Katunjha bridge completed in such a short span that he gave the 46-year-old engineer in charge, Sunil Kumar, a free ticket to Singapore and back.


When the Kosi floods struck, it made a contribution of Rs.20 crore to the Chief Minister’s Relief Fund. Reliance was the second biggest contributor: Rs.9 crore.


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The message sunk. Good work has a value now. He is not the only one. Six other engineers have been similarly rewarded with foreign holidays for the speedy work they have executed and 11 others have been given cash rewards of Rs. 20,000 each. This was unthinkable for any government employee in Bihar till now. “It is very important to reward those who work hard as it is one way to tell them that we respect their professionalism,” says Pratyaya Amrit.

Seeing the rapid progress of the corporation, the Chief Minister gave it Rs. 1132 crore asking it to build an additional 520 bridges under the Mukhya Mantri Setu Nirman Yojana. Says Pratyaya Amrit: “The Chief Minister gave the corporation a lifeline when he gave us this ambitious project.” But when he called a meeting of his engineers and announced it, there was skepticism. Though they were happy to be trusted with such a massive job, they wondered if they would ever find adequate equipment, material, manpower, consultants, engineers and designers. As they were racing against time, Pratyaya Amrit outsourced consultants to prepare project reports so that work could be started. It started work in April 2007 and till date, 294 have been completed.

June 11th was the foundation day of the corporation and the Chairman got the CM to inaugurate 140 bridges all over Bihar in one symbolic action, as he wanted it to be a morale booster for the employees who three years ago thought they were going to be retrenched. By April next year, the corporation is planning to have finished 440 bridges. Says Pratyaya Amrit: “I realised that employees are willing to work hard. All they need is a right opportunity and direction. It is our employees who were earlier looked down upon who are now the pride of Bihar.”

Profits keep rising

During the last three years, 336 high level bridges have been constructed at an estimated cost of Rs. 708.48 crores. The corporation is presently implementing as many as 520 projects under the Mukhya Mantri Setu Nirman Yojna, at an estimated cost of Rs. 1,132 crores. Of them, 251 have already been completed costing Rs. 302.40 crores. It is working on eight over-bridges costing about Rs. 306.61 crores and 45 major road projects at an estimated cost of Rs. 438.00 crores. In 2004-05, the annual turnover in terms of work execution was Rs. 57.38 crore. In 2008-09, it has risen to Rs. 768 crore.

The corporation had an accumulated loss of Rs. 17 crore when Pratyaya Amrit took over. Today, three years later, it has shown a profit of Rs. 83.80 crore. The corporation has 100 percent funding from the government but on every project it charges nine percent of the total cost as centage. The concept of centage is approved by the government as the corporation has its own expenses to keep it going. Earlier it had a loss of Rs.17 crore, but now the increased earnings from the centage have helped it wipe out the deficit and register a surplus.

Nitish Kumar now has asked them to take on projects like road construction. Other government departments are now wooing the contractor who did up the corporation office wanting their offices to be redesigned. Deputy Chief Minister Sushil Kumar Modi hopes that the corporation would be a model for other organisations in Bihar to restructure and reinvent itself.

Bridges make life easier

Bridges are the lifelines of Bihar. Out of 38 districts, 28 are flood prone and get cut off if there are no bridges. But apart from this reality, Bihar is also seeing that if there are proper connections, it could start impacting the economy in a positive way as it will attract investors to the land that once was untouchable.

After the bridge came up in Sitamarhi, the real estate prices have gone up. Even in Patna, decongestion due to flyovers has made real estate prices shoot up in those areas. For example, because of the Kankarbagh flyover, flats of 1700 square feet cost between Rs. 40-55 lakh. Three years ago, it was around Rs. 15 lakh. Encouraged, the corporation proposes to get a study done on the socio impact of the bridges.

Tacking corruption, reforms and motivating results

What about corruption and mafia? Amrit says that when he took over there was nothing called 'good contractors'. He then introduced a system of registration of contractors and told them that they could hire equipment and personnel but both had to be seen on the site the day the work started. "We had a transparent system and picked the contractors on merit through open tenders. We even got banks to finance them and ensured they were paid on time", he says. There was not a single threat or exhortation and there were a couple of instances were there where some of the mafia misbehaved with contractors, he admits, but adds that the corporation immediately got them arrested and so the message went out loud and clear.

"Good contractors stuck to us as they saw a great opportunity. I met each contractor to review the work on a regular basis. We blacklisted as many as 40 contractors and debarred 84 contractors for not completing the work in time. Fines of Rs.4.5 crores were collected from contractors. That created a certain work culture and discipline,” he adds.

Chirayantad Overbridge, Patna. Pic: BBCCL.

The corporation, which has a Wifi campus, is the only company in Bihar, which has got ISO 9001 and 14001 certification. The corporation’s slogan is: We build bridges of confidence. Efforts are on to beat deadlines now. A RCC bridge in Belwa Tengarmarhi in Kishanganj district of 252 meters is slated to be completed much before the deadline of 31st March 2011.

Amrit also introduced a number of the operation-level reforms on the ground to make things work. Engineers had no vehicles. He outsourced SUV’s for them so as to help them go around for frequent inspections and gave them an allowance of Rs. 18,000 as maintenance.

He introduced the Closed User Group of BSNL so all officials were networked by phones with four digit numbers. It led to better and faster communication.

He introduced the “Mobile Inspector” system where all Executive Engineers have a GPRS enabled sim card in their phones. They can go to the site, photograph the bridge, take out their pencil stylus and fill in details like the name of the bridge, its location and status. It is then directly sent to the chairman who sees it on his computer in his office. Everyday, the Chairman monitors the progress. There is a new sense of accountability.

The record room that was in a mess is now orderly with files neatly tied in bundles waiting for being microfilmed. A room that was used as a dumping place for unwanted material is now a library. The office is still in the old traditional building but now the corporation wants to build what it calls, Setu Bhawan, which will be Bihar’s first green building.

To create team spirit, all festivals were celebrated among employees. Free medical camps, yoga camps and Art of Living camps were held.

“Different people get motivated by different things. I pulled every lever I could. Each of these helped in different ways to motivate employees and give them a feeling of being in a family with a focused work culture,” says Amrit.

The road ahead for the corporation as he sees it, is to now compete nationally to do projects outside Bihar. With its newfound confidence, it wants to grow bigger and larger to ensure that its employees get all the benefits, as it is teamwork that has got it from a company under liquidation to a company that is heralding a new Bihar. ⊕