Re: Deterrence
Posted: 22 May 2011 23:56
^^ Ramanaji, NFU was just to play to an audience. GoI source said "Do you think we trust crazies across the border?!"
Juggi G wrote:Indian Official Touts Work On Nuclear Deterrent
Indian Official Touts Work On Nuclear Deterrent
Jun 17, 2011
By Jay Menon
NEW DELHI
India is well on its way to creating a minimum credible nuclear deterrent, a senior defense official says.
“There is a huge amount of work going on toward creating a credible minimal deterrence to ensure our adversaries don’t take us by surprise. We are way up and ahead of what we need to do in protecting the country,” says Air Vice Marshal K.J. Mathews, commander-in-chief of Strategic Forces Command.
SFC, established in 2003, operates independently and is responsible for India’s nuclear arsenal from preparation to delivery to the armed forces.
The Command also is tasked with the use of nuclear weapons under the eight-point nuclear doctrine,
which is committed to No-First Strike or Use of Nuclear Weapons against Non-Nuclear Nations.
I quote from my own post here earlierramana wrote:X-post...Note bolded part about applicability of NFU.Juggi G wrote:Indian Official Touts Work On Nuclear Deterrent
Indian Official Touts Work On Nuclear Deterrent
The Command also is tasked with the use of nuclear weapons under the eight-point nuclear doctrine,
which is committed to No-First Strike or Use of Nuclear Weapons against Non-Nuclear Nations.
Apart from the 'no guarantee' to NNWS who align with NWS (thereby partially withdrawing the Negative Security Assurance to NNWS) and nuclear retaliation if chemical/biological weapons are used against India (even if nukes per se were not used), the 2003 ND also referred to 'massive' punitive retaliation which is a refinement since the 1999 DND.
SSridhar wrote:Game Theoretic Understanding of India-Pakistan Relations - IDSA Comment by Arvind Gupta
Interestingly (to me) I had used the same game model in my post near the beginning of this threadNow let us consider a game where the consequences of following a hard strategy all the time are very severe. The game of Chicken (the name was given by Bertrand Russell) models brinkmanship. The two players are on a collision course. Who will blink first, swerve (i.e. blink, compromise, or give in) and leave the arena? Or will they go for an ultimate clash, conflict, or even war? Pay off matrix for an essential Chicken game is shown at Figure 2.
Here, the pay offs are such that there is a very heavy price if both players continue on the collision course. One or both must give in to avoid a collision. There is no Nash equilibrium, i.e. no dominant strategy, in this game unlike in prisoners’ dilemma. The players will have to consider the consequences of a collision course which could even be a war.
The Cuban missile crisis was an example of the game of Chicken. The US and USSR initially adopted tough stances but eventually the USSR had to give in.
In 2002, India mobilized its army along the India-Pakistan border for ten months in response to a terror attack on the Indian parliament. The attack was carried out by a terrorist group based in Pakistan. Both countries were in a situation of rising tension and fears of nuclear war raised their head. General Musharraf, the President of Pakistan, felt the heat and gave an open statement that Pakistan would not allow its territory to be used for supporting terrorism. The Indian government which was finding it difficult to sustain a large scale mobilization for such a long time, began to relax its posture after the assurance was given. The international community also did some deft diplomacy to avoid war. Operation Parakram had elements of the game of Chicken in it although it is not known whether the two sides actually used Game theory to model their responses. The Operation was eventually called off and war averted.
shiv wrote:Nuclear deterrence is based on a game called "chicken"
Imagine two drivers heading towards each other on the same lane of a road at 100 kmph. To swerve is to "lose", and to "stay" is to win
The consequences of not swerving are very costly to both, so either both will swerve or one (the "chicken) will swerve first. If both don't swerve both are destroyed. The "points" for this game can be seen in this picture
A policy of NFU changes the game from "chicken" to a much simpler and easily predictable game of tit for tat.
ramana some of this man's statements sound absurd sounding but "scientifically demonstrable". Unfortunately it's difficult to decide exactly where to tell "scientific data" to get off. For example if you plot a graph of battles won versus weapons used in the years 1901 to 2000 I suspect "artillery" will win hands down as the most effective weapon and nuclear weapons come way down. Better than bows and arrows I guess.ramana wrote:Unstated assumption is lots of fizzul material.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwb2wU-5aJQFormer U.S. Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara passed away on Monday, July 6, 2009. He was 93.
In this excerpt from March 2005, McNamara discusses the effectiveness of nuclear deterrence during the 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis. McNamara implies that, due to their lethality, small stockpiles of nuclear weapons are just as effective as large-scale arsenals in deterring military action by an enemy state.
Oh of course Shaurya. No doubt about that. But there are other takes on the issue. I for one believe that if a leader has access to nukes and does not give a damn about getting nuked, deterrence will fail.ShauryaT wrote:Shiv: For every Ward Wilson, you will find two dozen, who say the opposite. The reality is governments the world over have rejected this message and do believe in counter value and counter force. Not saying, we need to duplicate the west and its doctrines of deterrence, lock and stock.
shiv wrote: Interestingly (to me) I had used the same game model in my post near the beginning of this thread
http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewto ... 61#p745561shiv wrote:Nuclear deterrence is based on a game called "chicken"
Imagine two drivers heading towards each other on the same lane of a road at 100 kmph. To swerve is to "lose", and to "stay" is to win
The consequences of not swerving are very costly to both, so either both will swerve or one (the "chicken) will swerve first. If both don't swerve both are destroyed. The "points" for this game can be seen in this picture
A policy of NFU changes the game from "chicken" to a much simpler and easily predictable game of tit for tat.
A very perceptive post, JEM.JE Menon wrote:These killings, though essentially local and apparently of minor players in the global scheme, will have worldwide implications.
A very rough and crude message is being sent by the Pakistani state. Everybody who has half a nut knows this. It is only a question of what the next moves are, and where it will lead. It's an unpredictable clusterfu(k really...
The Pakistani state thinks it is on the verge of defeating the Americans in Afghanistan. They are playing what they assess to be the end-game, and afterwards they will expose in dribs and drabs more and more of their dangerous strategic agenda.
We cannot, for instance, entirely ignore the almost casual bravado with which Erdogan ups the ante in the Middle East and East Mediterranean, while noting that the Turkish state has been getting very cosy with Pakistan over the past few years; even those who prefer conservative analyses of the situation, will have to acknowledge that this has to be seen in the backdrop of Pakistan's nuclear capabilities.
It is America's move.
Results we may deduce, if the above is true:See this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_sharing
Nuclear sharing is a concept in NATO's policy of nuclear deterrence, which involves member countries without nuclear weapons of their own in the planning for the use of nuclear weapons by NATO, and in particular provides for the armed forces of these countries to be involved in delivering these weapons in the event of their use.
As part of nuclear sharing, the participating countries carry out consultations and take common decisions on nuclear weapons policy, maintain technical equipment required for the use of nuclear weapons (including warplanes capable of delivering them), and store nuclear weapons on their territory.
Of the three nuclear powers in NATO (France, the United Kingdom and the United States), only the United States has provided weapons for nuclear sharing. As of November 2009, Belgium, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands and Turkey are still hosting U.S. nuclear weapons as part of NATO's nuclear sharing policy.[1][2] Canada hosted weapons until 1984,[3] and Greece until 2001.[1][4] The United Kingdom also received U.S. tactical nuclear weapons such as nuclear artillery and Lance missiles until 1992, despite the UK being a nuclear weapons state in its own right; these were mainly deployed in Germany.
Both the Non-Aligned Movement and critics inside NATO believe that NATO's nuclear sharing violates Articles I and II of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), which prohibit the transfer and acceptance, respectively, of direct or indirect control over nuclear weapons.
...
The US insists that its forces control the weapons, and that no transfer of the nuclear bombs or control over them is intended "unless and until a decision were made to go to war, at which the NPT treaty would no longer be controlling", so there is no breach of the NPT.[6] However, the pilots and other staff of the "non-nuclear" NATO countries practice handling and delivering the US nuclear bombs, and non-US warplanes have been adapted to deliver US nuclear bombs which involved the transfer of some technical nuclear weapons information. Even if the US argument is considered legally correct, some argue such peacetime operations appear to contravene both the objective and the spirit of the NPT. Essentially, all preparations for waging nuclear war have already been made by supposedly non-nuclear weapon states.
At the time the NPT was being negotiated, the NATO nuclear sharing agreements were secret. These agreements were disclosed to some of the states, including the Soviet Union, negotiating the treaty along with the NATO arguments for not treating them as proliferation. Most of the states that signed the NPT in 1968 would not have known about these agreements and interpretations at that time.[7]
I think the thing that is needed is to encourage and get a a Pakistani nuclear bomb to go off somewhere in the world - preferably in Pakistan itself - proving that irrational people now have the bomb. That would give every power in the world the best excuse to take the crap out of Paki nukes. The problem here may be that Pakis also understand this.RajeshA wrote:Rudradev ji,
Going Thermonuclear is going up the escalation ladder. It would be the first time use of a nuclear bomb on Muslims, and that too very pious Muslims, not the Pindi variety. USA may be able to establish its domination for the time being, but would be naked for the future, as Muslims unlike Japanese are not going to forgive this, and they will attack even if they have to wait a hundred years.
There will be no going back. Every group in the Ummah would use it as an example to go radical, and all those Islamists who manage to work with USA even tactically would be delegitimized.
Duality of enmity and cooperation in the world from the irredentist parties in the world have ensured that Deterrence does not work against them.
The way to go is the break up of Pakistan into many smaller entities. Thus even if USA attacks one entity, not everybody feels that their H&D has been trampled under foot. It contains the fallout.
I envisage two scenarios for such a situation to happen. One a TNW against an advancing Indian column after a horrendous terror strike that even a pacific India could not tolerate. And two, a green-on-green situation when a field commander in possession of a TNW decides to use it against, most probably, somebody who does not support his worldview.shiv wrote:I think the thing that is needed is to encourage and get a Pakistani nuclear bomb to go off somewhere in the world - preferably in Pakistan itself - proving that irrational people now have the bomb. That would give every power in the world the best excuse to take the crap out of Paki nukes. The problem here may be that Pakis also understand this.
+1Rudradev wrote: 10) The wisest move for America, if it wants to retain its upper hand at all, is to seize the initiative and establish the NEW paradigm. Deterrence is dead and gone... an entire global system of belief in nuclear "deterrence" that was established by demonstrations at Hiroshima and Nagasaki and followed up with decades of brinkmanship and propaganda. Whatever the new paradigm is... if America wants to dominate the world, America must be the one to define it and establish it. For America to establish this new paradigm, more demonstrations are necessary. More examples need to be made.
Why did he apply it to Indian politics. There could be many reasons and one IMO is the social engineering effect of news reporting in western newspapers. During those times the there was a great value in India (of name recognition)being reported in the west.NRao wrote:Shiv,
Perhaps the best in the field of game theory: http://www.predictioneersgame.com/
He has written a book (The Predictioneer’s Game: Using the Logic of Brazen Self-Interest to See and Shape the Future?) after great success. Read just the forward if you get a chance - he first applied it to Indian politics. Everyone predicted IG to become the PM, out came Jagjivan Ram - as predicted by his model - an unknown then. And his carrier took off.
Nuclear deterrence is growing roots in South Asia. India and Pakistan have both incorporated nuclear capabilities into their defence planning. Both are guided by a philosophy of minimum credible deterrence, although within this context modest growth is expected to achieve desired force postures. It is natural that asymmetries exist in the forces held by India and Pakistan. These will persist along with different perceptions of strategy and tactics. Despite these differences, we believe India and Pakistan have both reached a point where they should share perceptions about deterrence and nuclear stability in the region.
The time is right for India and Pakistan to expand shared understandings through cooperative exchanges of information about their respective deterrence postures. Such understanding could be critical in a crisis
The time is right for India and Pakistan to expand shared understandings through cooperative exchanges of information about their respective deterrence postures. Such understanding could be critical in a crisis. Both India and Pakistan have mutually resolved to enhance strategic stability in our region, as affirmed in the Lahore Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) in February 1999. One possibility for furthering this goal is to consider retiring their oldest, first generation, nuclear capable, short range ballistic missiles (SRBMs), which are at the end of their natural lifespan. Pakistan's HATF 1 & 2 and India's Prithvi 1 & 2 have served their purpose and will be eventually retired unilaterally according to each nation's normal decommissioning process. We propose a plan of mutual transparency measures that would share information about the retirement of these missiles on a reciprocal, bilateral basis - without impinging on the continuing modernization of both sides' strategic forces. The retirement of other nuclear capable, obsolescent ballistic missiles can then follow in the same cooperative spirit.
We have participated in an in-depth study and also recently in a mock exercise to explore how information exchanges between our two countries could be conducted. We are confident that such an exchange could be achieved with minimal risk and costs yet would provide important reassurance about significant changes in deterrence postures.
Pakistan's HATF 1 & 2 and India's Prithvi 1 & 2 have served their purpose and will be eventually retired unilaterally according to each nation's normal decommissioning process. We propose a plan of mutual transparency measures that would share information about the retirement of these missiles on a reciprocal, bilateral basis
The Foreign Ministers of India and Pakistan have recently reaffirmed their commitment to pursue confidence building measures (CBM) in connection with their ongoing Composite Dialogue. A working group on peace and security matters is charged with exploring CBMs in the security area. One candidate CBM would be to conduct a Joint Transparency Exercise (JTE) to exchange information about retired missiles. With the voluntary retirement of these obsolete missiles already imminent, New Delhi and Islamabad could make a virtue of a necessity by adding reciprocal transparency to the retirement process. Our studies show such a joint CBM is ripe for consideration and could be conducted in the near term. A first step might be to declare these nuclear capable missiles to be non-nuclear delivery systems. Then, as these missiles are removed from the nuclear arsenal, our two countries can build trust and understanding as our respective experts expand cooperation in the drawdown of obsolete forces.
This is a small step. It has been endorsed by several prestigious expert groups. We have studied the practical details of how such ideas could be implemented. We concluded that such exchanges could be powerful tools in enhancing mutual confidence and signal maturity as responsible nuclear powers. The costs and risks for India and Pakistan are small, but the potential benefits are great. It is a step whose time has come.
Feroz Khan and Gurmeet Kanwal, both retired Brigadiers, are with the Naval Postgraduate School, Monterey, CA, USA, and the Centre for Land Warfare Studies, New Delhi, respectively. Views are personal
The DRDO predicts a highly accurate missile, which will strike within a few hundred metres of the designated target, even after travelling 5,000 km. This would allow the operational version of the Agni-5 to carry a smaller nuclear warhead. “Megaton warheads were used when accuracies were low. Now we talk of (accuracy of) a few hundred metres. That allows a smaller warhead, perhaps 150-250 kilotons, to cause substantial damage. We don’t want to cause wanton damage (with megaton warheads),” says Chander.