India-US Strategic News and Discussion

[Singha]

the US may not be too good a place for black people either, esp in areas where white vigilantes are subtly supported by the police

the latest incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

[Prem]

old people are actually quite well off in US. and they haven't been affected that much by the recent meltdown. I read some study somewhere that the age group >55 suffered the least losses in their investments, in the 2008-2009 meltdown.

Majority in this group's average worth is either negative or under 30k in few cases . They cant suffer much. Nanga Nahyega kya or nichore ga kya?

[Gus]

old people are actually quite well off in US. and they haven't been affected that much by the recent meltdown. I read some study somewhere that the age group >55 suffered the least losses in their investments, in the 2008-2009 meltdown.

Not really. Everybody who did not move money to safety, lost their nest eggs.

Old people, on a like to like basis, are relatively worse off in the US. They don't have family support and many are forced to work part time for insurance etc. See 70+ people working as Walmart greeters??? For the work they have done so far, they should not be still working. Of course, in India the absolute poor have it worse, whatever age you are. But the middle class old people are taken care of better...IMO of course.

[Gus]

IMO, of course, but I have a tough time believing this..

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2 ... ing?page=2
Witness reportedly saw Trayvon Martin beating George Zimmerman before shooting

[Lalmohan]

small unarmed teenage kid beats up big armed man... uh-huh?

[gakakkad]

old people are quite often uninsured .. often times end up in er for missing meds because they did not have money to by the months stock ..sometimes they breakdown in front of docs...in many cases they don't even know which part of the world their kids are based currently .. i have actually got nightmares of being old and uninsured in the US with no relatives...

an Indian will never have the heart to alienate their parents.. I know of people aborting plans to study in the US to ensure that parents get treated for cancer.. people selling gold to get their parents treated etc..

[gakakkad]

IMO, of course, but I have a tough time believing this..

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/hannity/2 ... ing?page=2
Witness reportedly saw Trayvon Martin beating George Zimmerman before shooting

waiting for Jon Stewart to make fun of this... fox news is ridiculous...

[Rangudu]

small unarmed teenage kid beats up big armed man... uh-huh?

Why is it unbelievable? The kid probably did not know that ther other guy had a gun. Not too long ago I stopped for gas in a shady part of town and a big "youngster" walked up to me and said "That's a nice GPS you have in your car". I sure wish I had a gun at that time. But I did not, so I stopped pumping gas and drove off fast. Due to the bad economy, even previously safe suburbia has now been infested with burglaries and home invasions. When you add gun toting nervous people to the mix - this kind of thing is not surprising.

[ranjbe]

old people are actually quite well off in US. and they haven't been affected that much by the recent meltdown. I read some study somewhere that the age group >55 suffered the least losses in their investments, in the 2008-2009 meltdown.

Not really. Everybody who did not move money to safety, lost their nest eggs.

Old people, on a like to like basis, are relatively worse off in the US. They don't have family support and many are forced to work part time for insurance etc. See 70+ people working as Walmart greeters??? For the work they have done so far, they should not be still working. Of course, in India the absolute poor have it worse, whatever age you are. But the middle class old people are taken care of better...IMO of course.

Unemployment rate for college graduates was 4.3%, while that of the general population was 9.6%, and the unemployment rate for people with graduate degrees was around 3%, according to this September 2011 article.
http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/214426/ ... aduate.htm
Similarly, elders who were college-educated professionals are living a comfortable retired life in a disproportionately larger proportion than the general elderly population - I can assure you they do not make up Walmart greeters. These are the people who have winter retirement homes in Naples, Fla or in Orange County, Ca.

[Rangudu]

BTW, all those who have made up their mind that the Trayvon killing was racist in nature, please don't read this. For others:

Multiple suspensions paint complicated portrait of Trayvon Martin

As thousands of people gathered here to demand an arrest in the Trayvon Martin case, a more complicated portrait began to emerge of a teenager whose problems at school ranged from getting spotted defacing lockers to getting caught with a marijuana baggie and women’s jewelry.

The Miami Gardens teen who has become a national symbol of racial injustice was suspended three times, and had a spotty school record that his family’s attorneys say is irrelevant to the facts that led up to his being gunned down on Feb. 26.
In October, a school police investigator said he saw Trayvon on the school surveillance camera in an unauthorized area “hiding and being suspicious.” Then he said he saw Trayvon mark up a door with “W.T.F” — an acronym for “what the f---.” The officer said he found Trayvon the next day and went through his book bag in search of the graffiti marker.
Instead the officer reported he found women’s jewelry and a screwdriver that he described as a “burglary tool,” according to a Miami-Dade Schools Police report obtained by The Miami Herald.

Trayvon’s backpack contained 12 pieces of jewelry, in addition to a watch and a large flathead screwdriver, according to the report, which described silver wedding bands and earrings with diamonds.

Trayvon was asked if the jewelry belonged to his family or a girlfriend.

“Martin replied it’s not mine. A friend gave it to me,” he responded, according to the report. Trayvon declined to name the friend

[gakakkad]

^ rangudu , The deceased was a minor... the events described in the Miami herald point to the teenage mischief..

Zimmerman told police Trayvon jumped him, punched him in the face and slammed his head on the ground, according to information published by the Orlando Sentinel.

Did he report any injuries ? If your face is slammed to the ground it ll surely leave its signs...

T -mobile records clearly indicate that the deceased was speaking to her girl friend ...

I believe that the piece in the herald is truly a smear campaign..


@Ranjbe only a quarter of amreeki population has gone to college ...

Besides the unemployment stats provided by the labour bureau have frequently been ridiculed in the past..

[darshhan]

the US may not be too good a place for black people either, esp in areas where white vigilantes are subtly supported by the police

the latest incident http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Trayvon_Martin

US is not good for whites/asians/hispanics either when they are in black dominated areas from the point of safety.Infact if you check the homicides of Indian origin people in USA(Or any other crime statistic where victims are PIOs/NRIs) , you will find that most of the accused are blacks. No black ever participated in any protest in response to those murders.Not to mention crimes like Robberies and burglaries committed by Blacks.That is why I would suggest PIOs not to get involved in Trayyon Martin case either. This is a matter between whites/hispanics and Blacks.Let them sort it out themselves. Why should Indian origin people destroy their relations with white/hispanic people over a dead black guy.

By the way when I was in Los Angeles there were some Latino strongholds which were no-go areas for blacks.Many blacks were gunned down by latino gangs then.

So in nutshell no body is safe in USA anymore.But then looking for safety in USA is like looking for oxygen on Moon.USA still has some advantages(this list is depleting extremely fast) but personal safety is not one of them.

[shiv]

If this Martin chap was killed by a gunshot it should be easy to figure out from the position the body was in as to where th shot came from and approximately what position the dead man was in when he was shot, and in some instances the distance from which the shot was fired.

The story is that this Zimmerman bloke was pushed, his nose broken, the back of his head bleeding and then he shot the guy.

earlier news:
http://blogcritics.org/politics/article ... ot/page-2/

George Zimmerman called police on Sunday evening, February 26, saying, “We've had some break-ins my neighborhood. There’s a really suspicious guy…up to no good.” Zimmerman a few moments later called back, he said the "suspicious guy" was approaching, with “something in his hands.”

At that point in the eventful evening, Trayvon had gotten caught in the rain, and was unaware he was being reported and followed. Then Trayvon noticed the SUV driver observing him. He had been talking to his 16 year old girl friend all the while he walked to the local store. Now she became aware he was frightened. The girl, from near Miami Gardens, Florida told investigators, "He said this man was watching him, so he put his hoodie on.” She said, “Then he lost sight of the man. She said,” I asked Trayvon to run, and he said he was going to walk fast. I told him to run, but he said he was not going to run."

Eventually Trayvor did run, the girl said. He thought he’d managed to escape, but the strange man was suddenly back, and cornering Trayvon. The cell phone monitored the entire incident. Trayvon: “What are you following me for?” Then the man: “'What are you doing here?” In the words of the 16 year old friend, “Next thing I hear is somebody pushing, and somebody pushed Trayvon because the head set just fell. I called him again, and he didn't answer the phone." Then the phone went dead.

During his tracking of the suspicious stranger, Zimmerman was told by police not to follow; They would handle it. But George was caught up, and continued in pursuit. Neighbors heard the loud conversation and the scuffling, and called police. They reported screams. The time line on Trayvon’s cell phone indicated a five minute argument and altercation. Then Trayvon was dead from a gunshot wound.

Tracey Martin, the teen’s father, told authorities, "He knew he was being followed and tried to get away from the guy, and the guy still caught up with him and that's the most disturbing part. He thought he had got away from the guy, and the guy backtracked for him.

Read more: http://blogcritics.org/politics/article ... z1qKdSjrwW

[Gus]

its all location location location. There are places in literally every city where you don't want to venture out in the night.

I lived in FL for two years. Never felt threatened. Never had anything happen to me or anybody say anything negative to me.

[darshhan]

My advise to Indians staying in America especially when they have citizenship/green card is to be prepared.America is no longer the country it used to be.It is imploding at a very fast clip.Hence take measures to protect yourself and your family.Make arrangements.Load up on Firearms and ammo.Extra rations.Get training.Lot of good firearms training institutes are available in USA.If possible then get a concealed carry permit.I do understand that in states where majority of Indians reside this might be tough.Become proficient in unarmed combat.Most importantly develop a warrior mindset which means if someone requires getting killed , you should be able to kill him.This is the one of the most difficult attributes to develop.Work on it and hopefully you will be ready when you need it( Any time during this decade in USA).And if you plan on coming to India then this is the time.The point is do not be a fuddu Indian.For the uninitiated Fuddu is a hindi/punjabi slang for dumb/foolish/limpdick/coward.

Stay Sharp.Stay safe.

[darshhan]

its all location location location. There are places in literally every city where you don't want to venture out in the night.

I lived in FL for two years. Never felt threatened. Never had anything happen to me or anybody say anything negative to me.

Gus ji , Florida is the heaven for Right to Keep,bear and use Arms. Use it to your advantage.

[Rangudu]

There have been a string of burglaries targeting Indian American/Indian houses near where I live. The culprit was some Latino gang who figured out that desis tend to have gold jewelry at home and generally don't have guns. The robberies happened in broad daylight with the culprits knowing the police response time. People that resisted got the crap beaten out of them (no deaths). In my community, we too have started reporting suspicious cars or people who look like they don't belong. Often times, these tend to be Black dudes.

[darshhan]

desis tend to have gold jewelry at home and generally don't have guns.

It should be vice versa.The only thing one should give a Criminal/robber/Terrorist is ammunition. One bullet at a time. A burst is even better.

[shiv]

This may be wrong thread to continue this sort of discussion. - but its seems to be going on nevertheless.

From the 50s to the 80s the early US appeared large hearted, progressive and generous, but after the 80s the US gradually changed. The thing is the US is alleged to have 20% poor people. That is OK. The US still very wealthy and those poor are richer than most Indians.

But I think of the fact that the US has 5000 plus nukes and 280 million guns. If the US starts declining to a level where one in three people is poor (or worse) we may get a dangerous situation that could go any which way. One possible way is that a democratic US that is finding it hard to get resources decides to attack and take over some territory based on the democratic wishes of US people who vote into power a president who does just that. The US is fully capable of starting a world war if enough Americans find the country going down and want some external conquest to remedy that. Luckily Canada and Mexico are next door.

But long before that I would expect crime rates in the US to shoot up. The US's murder rate per 100,000 is only slightly higher than India but most of them seem to be caused by firearms. 65% of US homicides are with firearms. Stats show that for every gun related US homicide, there are three gunshot injuries that do not die. Here credit surely must go to the US's excellent emergency care system.

But there are too many guns floating about in the US. For that number of guns I would rate the US as remarkably law abiding. Of course it is likely that individual gun enthusiasts would own multiple guns. I am sure that I would have owned at least 3 guns had I been in the US

[darshhan]

^^ Shiv ji, You are very right in your analysis.US is going down economically,securitywise and otherwise.But most importantly it is also loosing its freedom which is the attribute that defined America.A nation can always gain,loose and regain wealth and power.But once a society looses its freedom it is very hard to get it back.And this is precisely what is happening in America. Forget the criminals , the govt itself has turned tyrannical.As of now approximately 6-7 million people are incarcerated/on parole/on probation in America with about 3 million actually in prison.Not since Nazi concentration camps and Soviet gulags , have so many been imprisoned by their own govt.And many of them for extremely minor reasons.This is almost two percent of its population.And anyone who knows anything about prisons will know that once a person is imprisoned , the opportunities are going to shrink for him dramatically.So here you have a significant percentage of population(2% is not less) brutalized by their own govt and rendered dysfunctional for life outside prisons.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that this is not exactly a sign of good health for America.

And the best part is that now with economic crisis looming for many states , most likely they will be unable to fund all their prisons.So now these states will have have no choice but to release some of these brutalized prisoners into the general population.Guess what will be the repercussions.

Lesson to be learnt by Indians : People who always say that our police/security forces/judiciary should become very strict and hand out punishments like American courts should look at the above situation and accept that America can also take a wrong approach.

[ranjbe]

^ rangudu , The deceased was a minor... the events described in the

@Ranjbe only a quarter of amreeki population has gone to college ...

Besides the unemployment stats provided by the labour bureau have frequently been ridiculed in the past..

I have been to graduate school, as have you and almost all of the BRF memebers who live in the US. These statistics are quite relevant for us.
Please emlighten me which statistics 'have been ridiculed in the past'. The way unemployment is calculated has keep changing but the fact that college-educated people do well here compared to High School graduates, does NOT change. This fact is relevant, not how unemployment rates are calculated.

[darshhan]

I am sure that I would have owned at least 3 guns had I been in the US

Backed by tens of thousands of rounds of ammunition.

[V_Raman]

There have been a string of burglaries targeting Indian American/Indian houses near where I live. The culprit was some Latino gang who figured out that desis tend to have gold jewelry at home and generally don't have guns. The robberies happened in broad daylight with the culprits knowing the police response time. People that resisted got the crap beaten out of them (no deaths). In my community, we too have started reporting suspicious cars or people who look like they don't belong. Often times, these tend to be Black dudes.

we had a spate of such burglaries in our community as well. advice of police
get a dog -- good medium sized breed.
dont get a gun -- statistically speaking, your chances of survival are better if you dont threaten with a gun.
dont keep too much jewelry at home. get a locker.
start a neighborhood watch.

[Prem]

IMHO, Massa can use some of its own advice and do the overhauling of political and economic system. The spread of xenophobia among economic destitues with violent social cultural enviorenment is always a bad omen. Desi logs might be better of with having one leg in Desh for their family sake. Just in case , things get Arizonianly ugly.

[hnair]

if this had been India, both the troubled kid and his shooter, the informant* would have been bitched-up by the local pela/pandus for wasting their time. All because none has firearms, including pandu/pela.

But in US, the informant had to have a gun, the victim had to have a record and rich white dude who owns the media raises a toast
__________
* of course in US, they are called "neighbourhood watch", only in Soviet Russia they are called their actual name - informant for the state. A lot of times (particularly in projects) they are folks with a record, who are given a deal by the state to inform upon suspicious characters. "suspicious characters" in certain areas means minorities who are encroaching on the economies of substance abuse (drink or drug).

[CRamS]

But in US, the informant had to have a gun, the victim had to have a record and rich white dude who owns the media raises a toast

Super. The tragedy aside, the social dynamic caught my attention. It is during these times, the inherent racism flares out. Notice how every white conservative, spear-headed by faux nooge, is coming out and taking a somewhat nuanced neutral stand, sympathizing with the black side, and appearing not antagonize the Hispanics. Almost like a gift handed to them so they can appear good to all sides.

Now contrast this with that racist thug cop who raided Black Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates, Jr in Cambridge, MA a couple of ears back and hand cuffed and insulted him on the speculation that he was breaking into a house (based on complaints by some white women). And when the case hit national headlines, and Obama appeared to criticize the cop, man oh man, the entire republican whites came down on Obama like a ton of bricks and vociferously came to the aid of the white cop and argued passionately as how the cop's actions should not be second guessed etc etc. Faux nooge even called Obama a racist.

The contrasts, where the republicans are now taking a responsible nuanced position in Trayvon Martin case Vs their position on Cambridge cop case is striking.

[shiv]

dont get a gun -- statistically speaking, your chances of survival are better if you dont threaten with a gun.

IMO. Never use a gun to threaten. One's index finger or similar pointy organ is enough for that. If you pull out a gun warn once, shoot next. (I'm talking about intruders/burglars). Otherwise don't pull out the gun. Think if you are going to use it before you expose it, not simply because you're scared. Guns don't kill. Only bullets do.

Having said that I think more Indians should buy a gun. My recommendation - a short/compact shotgun. Why? Your aim does not need to be good. You can get the legs more easily and incapacitate rather than kill.

[gakakkad]

[
I have been to graduate school, as have you and almost all of the BRF memebers who live in the US. These statistics are quite relevant for us.
Please emlighten me which statistics 'have been ridiculed in the past'. The way unemployment is calculated has keep changing but the fact that college-educated people do well here compared to High School graduates, does NOT change. This fact is relevant, not how unemployment rates are calculated.

I get your perspective.. from the point of view of Indians , the general state of economy or unemployment figures are irrelevant.. because there will be very little unemployment amongst Indians and iirc 75-80% indians have been to college and 30-40% receive technical education.. so most Indians will be pretty well off... and will remain so hopefully..

my statement was with reference to the aam amreeki public ... indians being the richest community don't quite fall in the aam amreeki category...

[Haresh]

Shiv

"You can get the legs more easily and incapacitate rather than kill."

With all due respect that is the most "horse$hit statement I have eve read.
I have attended intensive firearms courses in the UK, I used to own a 12 guage Mossburg pump action shotgun (when they were legal)

In the UK most burglars are not armed, very rarely will you encounter a burglar who will even carry a knife/non firearm weapon.
Most burglers will flee if you shout at them.
Only the most violent thuggish ones will actually get involved in a confrontation.

In the USA most burglars are armed- FACT

You think you can aim for the legs "more easily and incapacitate rather than kill."

The problem with that scenario is this.
In a violent encounter you would be absolutley terrified, you would be struggling to remember what you were taught ie "aim for centre mass" which is basically the chest.
What makes you think you could calmly aim at an aggressors legs???

I suggest you google the word "stress fire"
If ever you want to replicate the sort of feelings you would have in a situation like that I would suggest that you do the following:
As many press ups as possible, until your arms fails
As many squats as possible before your legs fail
As many situps until your stomach muscles fail

And when you have done all that try calmly taking a firearm apart, put it back together and then take some carefully aimes shots!!

Sorry to Shoot your theory down

[Lalmohan]

a shot gun also has a very wide impact area - at close range it is equivalent to being shot by multiple pistols simultaneously

[Gus]

Shot guns are bigger and are not for everyone to handle. Most people I know, who had permits and have one at home, have a small .22 one. That is also easy to carry, if you have a conceal carry permit. Some of the most unlikely people have guns at home like that kind 50ish woman that mothers you at office.

A client of mine was a big time gun enthusiast and he once took me to the range and had me shoot about 15 different guns he brought from home. From .22 to those big .45 ones (and some really antique ones which he collects). Tried my hand at a variety of things - with sights, semi-auto pistols, revolvers that you had to pull the barrel out and put in 6 bullets and cock the trigger and shoot (this was the .45 that gave birth to the phrase half-cocked).

You do shoot at the chest area - since that is the highest probability of hitting and incapacitating somebody. But it is bloody hard to hit someone, say at 30 feet with a pistol unless you have practiced at the range. In the dark your chances plummet. You are probably better off letting the burglar get away than letting off a shot and getting shot back in return.

[Tanaji]

a shot gun also has a very wide impact area - at close range it is equivalent to being shot by multiple pistols simultaneously

Not always true no? It depends on the shot gun, range and the ammo. Yes, a shot gun impact is wider than a pistol impact, but it does not spread out over a wide area. I have seen impacts at close ranges that are similar to groupings made by a very good marksman. Concentrated over a small (5-7 cm) radius.

Having said that I think more Indians should buy a gun. My recommendation - a short/compact shotgun. Why? Your aim does not need to be good. You can get the legs more easily and incapacitate rather than kill.

I would say this depends on the jurisdiction. If in India/UK the issue does not matter since its quite difficult to get a gun. If in the US in a "stand your ground" law type of state such as Florida and 13 other states, one would say shoot to kill. That way there is only one version of the story for the cops (assuming you are really doing this in self defence) and you cant get sued. Some recommend to do that regardless (in the US), to negate possibilities of criminal lawsuits. Wont save you from civil ones in the non "stand your ground" states though.

If that sounds callous, then it is. IT is a reflection of US laws and society.

[Haresh]

Sorry Lalmohan,

Thats another myth.
What is your definition of close range less than 10 feet, 15 maybe??

I have seen shotguns of various barrel lengths fired, the shot doesn't spread out that quickly at short range.
You don't want to engage in that kind of random area "spray and pray" type shooting in a urban situation, the buckshot (00 at least) could richochet, and hit an innocent. It could go through a windows and hurt a neighbour, who would then sue you.

If you live in the USA, go to a gun club and get trained, DO NOT TAKE HEED OF ADVICE FROM THE INTERNET.
Very few people you know will ever have been in a violent life or death encounter, infact very few would have been in a fight.

Get trained, train hard, fight easy.

[Manu]

A simple solution (alternative to Mad Max Advise above).

Get a Bank Locker - it's cheap and safe. Keep $200 in cash at home, at all times. Robbers don't like leaving empty handed.

[Lalmohan]

yes fair enough, my observations based mostly on clay pidgeon shooting

[Tanaji]

A simple solution (alternative to Mad Max Advise above).

Get a Bank Locker - it's cheap and safe. Keep $200 in cash at home, at all times. Robbers don't like leaving empty handed.

Of course , fully agree, and get a big dog as well. But the discussion presumed that guns existed and what to do after that point.

I think guns + kids or guns + untrained/unstable owners = recipe for disaster.

[shiv]

With all due respect that is the most "horse$hit statement I have eve read.
I have attended intensive firearms courses in the UK, I used to own a 12 guage Mossburg pump action shotgun (when they were legal)

In the UK most burglars are not armed, very rarely will you encounter a burglar who will even carry a knife/non firearm weapon.
Most burglers will flee if you shout at them.
Only the most violent thuggish ones will actually get involved in a confrontation.

In the USA most burglars are armed- FACT

You think you can aim for the legs "more easily and incapacitate rather than kill."

The problem with that scenario is this.
In a violent encounter you would be absolutley terrified, you would be struggling to remember what you were taught ie "aim for centre mass" which is basically the chest.
What makes you think you could calmly aim at an aggressors legs???

I suggest you google the word "stress fire"
If ever you want to replicate the sort of feelings you would have in a situation like that I would suggest that you do the following:
As many press ups as possible, until your arms fails
As many squats as possible before your legs fail
As many situps until your stomach muscles fail

And when you have done all that try calmly taking a firearm apart, put it back together and then take some carefully aimes shots!!

Sorry to Shoot your theory down

It's OK. the very first sentence shot it down - so no need for the apology. Don't buy a gun is the simplest answer actually. If you are face to face with an adversary, what you say is absolutely right. If you are inside your home and a man is trying to break in and you can see him, then your gun may help. Carrying a gun in a car or with you is of little use. You can't pull it out and use it. IMO

It is very difficult to shoot a human being. Something needs to give inside your brain I guess. I have had three occasions in my life when I saw a burglar trying to break in or transit through my land. All at dusk/night. Once in the UK and twice in India. Shouting helped in the UK. He did go. On one occasion a Sandalwood thief in India waited calmly (for reasons unknown to me) until I located an air gun, loaded, took aim and missed from 40 feet (maybe 15 meters). He then jumped over the wall. I believe I deliberately missed. I could not get myself to hit him although I blamed the darkness/half-light at the time. It should have been easy - it was a sports air rifle with a telescopic sight. I was actually worried about the consequences of hitting him. But if I knew the law allows you to shoot in self defence at an intruder in your own home - I would shoot first and probably shoot better. But from behind cover. If the other guy has a gun and you are exposed, you are toast. Even shouting must be done from behind cover. Running away is better, but not if it's your own house. If its your house, better to be ready to shoot. The circumstances of anyone trying to break in while you are in would be exceptional, so you have to be ready for exceptional situations.

[Haresh]

Shiv,

"THOSE WHO LONG FOR PEACE, MUST TRAIN FOR WAR""

GET TRAINED, TRAIN HARD, FIGHT EASY

ODER SEIN, ODER HAMMER

Massad Ayoub - one of the foremost fire arms and self defence instructors in the world


Having said that it's always best to avoid conflict!!!

[Gus]

Of course , fully agree, and get a big dog as well. But the discussion presumed that guns existed and what to do after that point.

I think guns + kids or guns + untrained/unstable owners = recipe for disaster.

oh yeah. There are always idiots with guns. You always read about stuff like this guy who put a bullet in a hot place and it fired and shot him in the nuts, people hiding gun in the oven and then forgetting it and turning oven on, kids playing with gun and getting shot etc.

[anishns]

^^^ OT but there was a funny episode of a guy using a bullet as a fuse in his truck and the bullet fired and struck him in the nuts

http://dsc.discovery.com/videos/mythbus ... imyth.html