Indian Army: News & Discussion

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 18 Jan 2012 13:34

Gentlemen,

I see there is a lot of sympathy for Gen VKS in BR. But at some risk of offending many of you I am going to go against the grain because I am genuinely concerned about India. I believe VKS's only duty is to fight foreign invaders of India. (I realize that the IA is routinely used to fight internal armed insurgents as ordered by the Government of India.) He needs to have complete focus on his job which is to guard India's borders and not be distracted by other issues. If he wants to fight any other battle, he needs to resign first. His job is "not to reason why, but to do and die" and I quote from the Charge of the Light Brigade:

Someone had blunder'd
Theirs not to make reply
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die
Into the valley of death
rode the six hundred

The entire episode is unfortunate and might serve as a role model for the men and women of the 1.3 million IA to "reason why" and that will be the begining of the end of the IA as it exists today and seriously harm India's future as a free society.

By the way has their ever been an episode similar to this in other democracies? All democracies are imperfect, some more than others. Even within army organizations, I am sure imperfections abound. Definitely Britain of 1854 (Charge of the Light Brigade) was far from perfect.

Again my apologies in advance if my viewpoint hurts anyone's sentiments.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 13:43

^I do not understand the need of 'sympathy'. Neither does VKS need sympathy from any one else nor (i presume) any one here is offering it to him. IMO, it is a question of right versus wrong.
Alternately, as you suggest, had VKS resigned and filed the case, the then COAS(BS or AKS or SKG or whoever) would still be mired in the court case?!?

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Jan 2012 13:45

rajrang wrote:His job is "not to reason why, but to do and die"

That is ridiculous. He would be failing the nation if he did not stand up to internal enemies.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2012 14:00

Army chief's court case not healthy for ministry or forces: Government

Describing General Vijay Kumar Singh's move as "unfortunate," Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju said today that the matter is sensitive and it " is not a healthy precedent" either for the Defence Ministry of the armed forces.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jan 2012 14:01

Austin wrote:What would be interesting to see if if Court accepts VKS argument for 1951 as DOB then what impact will it have on career and promotions of other officers at that point in time when 1950 was the basis used for promotion for VKS.<SNIP>

You really don't tire from making the same incorrect argument again and again, do you? Where has it been mentioned that the good general secured his current position on the basis of 1950 as DOB? Or others denied promotion because of this? Irrespective of his DOB as 1951 or 1950, he was to become the chief. Unless, any of the other contenders came from his course, they would have been younger to him. here again, from what I've been able to gather from one of his coursemate is that he is the youngest cadet from the 36th NDA.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 18 Jan 2012 14:01

nelson wrote:^I do not understand the need of 'sympathy'. Neither does VKS need sympathy from any one else nor (i presume) any one here is offering it to him. IMO, it is a question of right versus wrong.
Alternately, as you suggest, had VKS resigned and filed the case, the then COAS(BS or AKS or SKG or whoever) would still be mired in the court case?!?

VKS's job is not to fight right versus wrong battles. The primary battles he should fight are with foreign invaders and secondarily internal threats to the people of India to the extent that dometic police forces are unable to cope with and only when ordered by the government. He should NOT give the slightest IMPRESSION of fighting the Indian government, which regardless of its imperfections, is elected by the people of India. The government's mistakes will have to be corrected by the people of India through their free press, free judiciary and importantly by their periodic free elections and NOT through the IA.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 14:05

rajrang wrote:
nelson wrote:^I do not understand the need of 'sympathy'. Neither does VKS need sympathy from any one else nor (i presume) any one here is offering it to him. IMO, it is a question of right versus wrong.
Alternately, as you suggest, had VKS resigned and filed the case, the then COAS(BS or AKS or SKG or whoever) would still be mired in the court case?!?

VKS's job is not to fight right versus wrong battles. The primary battles he should fight are with foreign invaders and secondarily internal threats to the people of India to the extent that dometic police forces are unable to cope with and only when ordered by the government. He should NOT give the slightest IMPRESSION of fighting the Indian government, which regardless of its imperfections, is elected by the people of India. The government's mistakes will have to be corrected by the people of India through their free press, free judiciary and importantly by their periodic free elections and through the IA.

What? You think he is a mercenary?

And what is this "free judiciary"? The court will not take suo motu action always. Some one has to take the case to judiciary. That someone should be the person who is wronged. As the aggrieved VKS ha s rightly done so.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 18 Jan 2012 14:05

Pranav wrote:
rajrang wrote:His job is "not to reason why, but to do and die"
That is ridiculous. He would be failing the nation if he did not stand up to internal enemies.

The IA should fight internal enemies only when ordered by the government of India. Otherwise, the free press and freedom of expression, the free judiciary and free elections are the mechanisms for correcting wrongs of the government.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jan 2012 14:09

Austin wrote:What would be interesting to see if if Court accepts VKS argument for 1951 as DOB then what impact will it have on career and promotions of other officers at that point in time when 1950 was the basis used for promotion for VKS.

May be we would see lot of cases filed if that dates leads to Seniority dispute among other officers serving at that point in time

There is no doubt that his real and legal DOB is 1951. All the legal and documentary evidence is there to attest to this fact.

The crux of the matter is how and why the 1950 date crept in and how it is being used by interested parties to obfuscate the issue and what will be the SC's take on this.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2012 14:10

rohitvats wrote:You really don't tire from making the same incorrect argument again and again, do you? Where has it been mentioned that the good general secured his current position on the basis of 1950 as DOB?

Well actually many news channel discussion i saw namely Times Now and others mentioned that few of his promotions are based on DOB as 1950 ( although Gen claim he was forced to accept that ) hence the view came up. Any ways since the issue is in court we will see the facts coming up soon.

negi · Post by **negi** » 18 Jan 2012 14:10

Afaik when it comes to choosing from two or more candidates of equal seniority for the post of COAS or equivalent in the services the older candidate is favored; obviously the chootiyanandans in the south block have in the past made exceptions in the past as and when they liked.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jan 2012 14:13

rajrang wrote:Gentlemen,

I see there is a lot of sympathy for Gen VKS in BR. But at some risk of offending many of you I am going to go against the grain because I am genuinely concerned about India. I believe VKS's only duty is to fight foreign invaders of India. (I realize that the IA is routinely used to fight internal armed insurgents as ordered by the Government of India.) He needs to have complete focus on his job which is to guard India's borders and not be distracted by other issues. If he wants to fight any other battle, he needs to resign first. His job is "not to reason why, but to do and die" and I quote from the Charge of the Light Brigade:

Someone had blunder'd
Theirs not to make reply
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die
Into the valley of death
rode the six hundred

The entire episode is unfortunate and might serve as a role model for the men and women of the 1.3 million IA to "reason why" and that will be the begining of the end of the IA as it exists today and seriously harm India's future as a free society.

By the way has their ever been an episode similar to this in other democracies? All democracies are imperfect, some more than others. Even within army organizations, I am sure imperfections abound. Definitely Britain of 1854 (Charge of the Light Brigade) was far from perfect.

Again my apologies in advance if my viewpoint hurts anyone's sentiments.

What of his personal rights? Should he give up that also? Is that your idea of civilian control??

The civilians can lie and cheat against the General but Gen VKS must keep quiet and simply die??

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2012 14:15

chetak wrote:There is no doubt that his real and legal DOB is 1951. All the legal and documentary evidence is there to attest to this fact.

Even if that were to be true and I am sure he would have many evidence to prove it , but if some of his promotions are indeed based on 1950 DOB and if court accepts 1951 as his true DOB for all promotions , then it would be interesting to see how will 1950 affect the career ( or in past was effected ) of other people waiting to be promoted , of course another posibility is it has no impact no matter if its 1950 or 51.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 18 Jan 2012 14:15

Government's anger and viewpoint:

The government's defence revolves around Gen Singh's three letters of January 2008 and November 2009 "accepting" his DoB as May 10, 1950, and assurances that he would "maintain" it.

In a 2009 letter to then Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor, Gen Singh said he had "learnt of some misgivings and doubts being raised on my commitment given on my DoB as per your directions. You are well aware that I have not gone back on this commitment... I have taken your directions in letter and spirit..."

The government argues Gen Singh's promotions to the rank of first Army commander (senior Lt-General) in 2008 and then the Army chief in 2010, as cleared by the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet, was done taking into account his written acceptances on his DoB. "So, Gen Singh now seems to be going against his own assurances to the Army and government," said an official

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 530331.cms

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 14:16

negi wrote:Afaik when it comes to choosing from two or more candidates of equal seniority for the post of COAS or equivalent in the services the older candidate is favored; obviously the chootiyanandans in the south block have in the past made exceptions in the past as and when they liked.

There is no question of two persons in the Army or any service having "equal seniority". That is an oxymoron in itself.
Like in Army, if two people have same date of seniority then the question, of who is senior, is decided on the basis of IC No.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 18 Jan 2012 14:18

chetak wrote:
rajrang wrote:Gentlemen,

I see there is a lot of sympathy for Gen VKS in BR. But at some risk of offending many of you I am going to go against the grain because I am genuinely concerned about India. I believe VKS's only duty is to fight foreign invaders of India. (I realize that the IA is routinely used to fight internal armed insurgents as ordered by the Government of India.) He needs to have complete focus on his job which is to guard India's borders and not be distracted by other issues. If he wants to fight any other battle, he needs to resign first. His job is "not to reason why, but to do and die" and I quote from the Charge of the Light Brigade:

Someone had blunder'd
Theirs not to make reply
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die
Into the valley of death
rode the six hundred

The entire episode is unfortunate and might serve as a role model for the men and women of the 1.3 million IA to "reason why" and that will be the begining of the end of the IA as it exists today and seriously harm India's future as a free society.

By the way has their ever been an episode similar to this in other democracies? All democracies are imperfect, some more than others. Even within army organizations, I am sure imperfections abound. Definitely Britain of 1854 (Charge of the Light Brigade) was far from perfect.

Again my apologies in advance if my viewpoint hurts anyone's sentiments.
What of his personal rights? Should he give up that also? Is that your idea of civilian control??

The civilians can lie and cheat against the General but Gen VKS must keep quiet and simply die??

It is not the job of the IA to correct the wrongs of the civilian government.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 18 Jan 2012 14:20

I really do not know if there is any hard and fast rule in selecting candidates , perhaps merits and ACR also matters in this.

I recollect when the new DRDO chief was to be selected and the choice was between Dr VKS and Dr Pillai , although the latter was suppose to be senior , Dr VKS was selected based on his ability to serve the chief longer and his handling strategic programs.

Its more of GOI discretion as they serve with the pleasure of Govt.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 14:22

rajrang wrote:Government's anger and viewpoint:

The government's defence revolves around Gen Singh's three letters of January 2008 and November 2009 "accepting" his DoB as May 10, 1950, and assurances that he would "maintain" it.

In a 2009 letter to then Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor, Gen Singh said he had "learnt of some misgivings and doubts being raised on my commitment given on my DoB as per your directions. You are well aware that I have not gone back on this commitment... I have taken your directions in letter and spirit..."

The government argues Gen Singh's promotions to the rank of first Army commander (senior Lt-General) in 2008 and then the Army chief in 2010, as cleared by the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet, was done taking into account his written acceptances on his DoB. "So, Gen Singh now seems to be going against his own assurances to the Army and government," said an official

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 530331.cms

This has been dealt with before in this forum please scroll back a few pages. As I have said earlier those who are peddling the "letters" are tightening the death noose around their own neck.

And this news article you have quoted is the example of 'free media' in this country.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 18 Jan 2012 14:29

A sensible editorial piece in the Hindu:

http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editori ... 808807.ece

The General and the labyrinth

The controversy over the age of General V.K. Singh, the subject of an already heated and often unseemly public debate, is now threatening to get out of hand. With the Army Chief left with no resort but to challenge the Defence Ministry in the Supreme Court in order to “protect his integrity and honour,” the issue has the makings of an unseemly civilian-military confrontation that could easily have been avoided had plain common sense prevailed over bureaucratic thick-headedness. There are a slew of documents — including a birth certificate and a school-leaving certificate — that prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that General Singh, whose father as well as grandfather were Army officers, was born on May 10, 1951. This is the date of birth recorded in the office of the Adjutant General, the Army's official record-keeper. The controversy has arisen because the Military Secretary — another wing of Army Headquarters that maintains personal records relating to postings, transfers, and promotions — records him as having been born on May 10, 1950. General Singh has been at pains to explain that the latter date, gleaned from an application form for entrance to the National Defence Academy when he was only 14 years old, was a mistake committed by a teacher of his. He has also revealed that the discrepancy was raised with two predecessor Army Chiefs — but, strangely and for reasons the Defence Ministry has not yet disclosed, to no avail.

A brave and highly decorated officer, General Singh is recognised as a brilliant strategist and a reform-minded leader who is tough on corruption, as reflected in the hard line he adopted against erring officers in the Adarsh Cooperative Housing Society scam. The mudslinging and insinuations intended to portray him as someone fiddling with his birth date to hang on to the power and privileges of high office must be rejected with contempt. One major reason why his year of birth has become such a hot potato is that the date of his retirement will have a bearing on who will succeed him as Army Chief. By refusing to accede to General Singh's request to correct the official record on the basis of documented fact, the Defence Ministry has shown astonishing short-sightedness, and in the process tread on a proud soldier's sense of honour. Even now, rather than fight for a bad cause in the highest court in the land, a disputation that could have a bearing on the Army's morale, the government should backtrack and come up with a constructive solution. By conceding General Singh's just case and treating him with the respect and honour that are his due, it should be able to clear the decks for a smooth succession to the post he occupies.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 18 Jan 2012 14:30

nelson wrote:
rajrang wrote:Government's anger and viewpoint:

The government's defence revolves around Gen Singh's three letters of January 2008 and November 2009 "accepting" his DoB as May 10, 1950, and assurances that he would "maintain" it.

In a 2009 letter to then Army chief Gen Deepak Kapoor, Gen Singh said he had "learnt of some misgivings and doubts being raised on my commitment given on my DoB as per your directions. You are well aware that I have not gone back on this commitment... I have taken your directions in letter and spirit..."

The government argues Gen Singh's promotions to the rank of first Army commander (senior Lt-General) in 2008 and then the Army chief in 2010, as cleared by the Appointments Committee of the Cabinet, was done taking into account his written acceptances on his DoB. "So, Gen Singh now seems to be going against his own assurances to the Army and government," said an official

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 530331.cms
This has been dealt with before in this forum please scroll back a few pages. As I have said earlier those who are peddling the "letters" are tightening the death noose around their own neck.

And this news article you have quoted is the example of 'free media' in this country.

Sorry for bringing up old news.

All I am saying is that we should all have faith iin India's great democracy which is no doubt imperfect like all democracies, but imperfect democracies are a great deal better and morally correct than the other forms of govenment (TSP, PRC etc.)

Without a doubt India has a loud, noisy and very free press with plenty of freedom of speech, free elections and highly capable free judiciary - though all of them are imperfect.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 14:39

If you are so confident of the free media in India you can take an online poll, may be in BRF only. I will concede if you get a simple majority.

It is the faith in Indian democracy that has made VKS what he is. Again it is the same faith in democracy that has made him knock the doors of the court.
Any comparison with TSP or PRC has no basis whatsoever.

prahaar · Post by **prahaar** » 18 Jan 2012 14:42

chackojoseph wrote:
prahaar wrote:So in the same vein as you have passed judgement on VKS (self before nation), I am at liberty to state that you are supporting abuse of power.
You can be at a liberty to state whatever you can. However, from My POV, I have merely stated what I have learn't from this, which I already said may not be my personal opinion. personally I have been skeptical of the govt.

I am sorry for making personal remarks, this was not the right way to show disagreement on my behalf.

Atri · Post by **Atri** » 18 Jan 2012 14:55

General resorting to Supreme court validates his trust on free judiciary of India. It is well within th legal rights of every citizen of India to approach court, if he thinks he is wronged. There really is no need to hyperventilate over threat to democracy. It is rock solid. The very fact that India's COAS went to Supreme court and not to his barracks to right the wrong done to him further strengthens my belief on Indian democracy along with countless ordinary abduls like me. There are many legitimate ways to right a wrong. Judiciary is one of them.

General saab aage badho, hum tumhare saath hain....

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jan 2012 14:58

prahaar wrote:I am sorry for making personal remarks, this was not the right way to show disagreement on my behalf.

Oh don't worry! Its a silly matter. I remember, last year, even the BRADMIN came hard on me for trying to give a different perspective.

But, me being the DDM, I am like this onleee

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Jan 2012 15:01

rajrang wrote: The IA should fight internal enemies only when ordered by the government of India.

Why would a regime order the army to fight against the regime itself?

Otherwise, the free press ...

Paid media

and freedom of expression, ...

Ask Google and Facebook about free expression in India

the free judiciary ...

Judiciary can't do much when the investigative machinery is firmly controlled by the regime

and free elections are the mechanisms for correcting wrongs of the government.

EVMs will do the trick nicely, thank you.

nelson · Post by **nelson** » 18 Jan 2012 15:02

"In 1949, GOI wanted to appoint Gen Thakur Nathu Singh as COAS in supercession of Gen Cariappa. He refused the offer, saying that Gen Cariappa was senior. No wonder, no one had the guts to mess with army officers! There was unity.
Contrast with today's sad state of affairs. All sorts of pretenders to the throne are warming up in the wings, some upgrading medical category, some biding their time." Things are vastly different and despicable today!

Jaybhatt · Post by **Jaybhatt** » 18 Jan 2012 15:45

THE PRESENT GOI PURSUES ITS CRIMINAL AGENDA OF DESTROYING THE INDIAN ARMED FORCES

LET US WISH GEN. V.K. SINGH ALL THE BEST IN HIS STRUGGLE TO COMBAT THIS VENAL ORGANISATION (THE PRESENT GOVT. OF INDIA)
_______________________________________________________________________________

I suppose the entire affair had to come to this stage. The soldiers' soldier, V.K. Singh, has been compelled to knock at the doors of the apex court, to defend his honour and integrity and to combat the slurs cast on him by a vicious gang of babus and netas.

At this stage, it is vital to analyse the issues that are involved in this sordid conspiracy.

Let us look at the undisputed facts :

(1) The COAS, Gen. V.K. Singh (VKS) has at least 11 documents to demonstrate unequivocally that his date of birth (DOB) is 10th May 1951, not 10th May 1950

(2) The AG's Branch in the Indian Army is the accepted and unquestioned authority for all documents, records etc. pertaining to Army personnel. The records of the AG cannot be queried. It is not disputed that the AG's files show the DOB of VKS as 10th May 1951.

(3) The only document that shows 1950 as the DOB of VKS is that in the Military Secretary's Office. Now, the MS only determines promotions etc. - in the case of VKS, the DOB data in the MS office is based on the NDA application form that was filled up by the schoolmaster of VKS when he was applying for his NDA admission test.

How many of us at the age of 14 to 15 in the early 1960s to mid 1960s relied on our seniors (whether in the family or in our schools) to help us in completing the admission forms for NDA / university / IIT etc. ? Almost all of us, I can guarantee.

(4) The COAS duly submitted his birth certificate and school certificate to the NDA authorities, showing his 1951 DOB. His entire career in the Army was based on his 1951 DOB until 2006 (see later), when his elevation to Lt. Gen. was under consideration (see later).

He valiantly fought for the country and loyally served the country without ever knowing that there was this anomaly in his DOB records.

(5) Only in 2006, did the anomaly in the records surface. VKS promptly asked for the two conflicting DOBs to be reconciled on the basis of the correct facts (recorded in the AG's files).

Let it be said categorically that VKS is not asking for / has not asked for his DOB to be changed, as is being made out by some of the muck - raking media. He is only asking for the correct DOB (as per law) to be recorded. There is at least one Supreme Court judgement clearly stipulating that the only valid DOB record of a person is his / her school certificate at the stage of passing out from school (the old "matriculation certificate").

This is when the fun and games started. The babus got into the act and the charade commenced, only to reach the stage of the Chief's Supreme Court petition yesterday.

The denouement is, of course, yet to come, but, in the process, the country and its armed forces have been thrown into this cauldron by the calculated acts of commission and omission by a coterie of dishonest, anti-national and unpatriotic people in Raisina Hill.

Who are the principal actors in this potential Greek tragedy ?

(A) The two former Chiefs of Army Staff JJ Singh and Deepak Kapoor occupy centre stage in this Machiavellian plot. Both of them have highly questionable career records and have served their own interests rather than those of the country and the Army.

Singh was rewarded with a Governorship because of his pliancy when he was Chief. In the case of Kapoor, the disclosure of his venal involvement in the Adarsh affair surely put paid to his post-retirement ambitions but he had already damaged the Army considerably before his Adarsh peccadilloes. JJ Singh, notoriously, was photographed crying in public after his appointment to the COAS was announced. Hardly a Chief who inspired confidence in his officers and men.

These are the two "stalwarts" who bullied, blackmailed and cajoled VKS not to contest his DOB when VKS was being considered for elevation to the post of Army Commander.

Then there is the Attorney General Vahanvati, a squalid little lawyer, who had a murky track record of representing crooks and criminals in the 2G affair and in other matters. This fellow had the audacity to override the written opinions of 4 former CJI's on the basic validity of the DOB of VKS. And, there is,of course, the wretched Khurshid fellow - the chap can only act as his nature dictates.

The 4 former Chief Justices of India have all said that the DOB of VKS, in the eyes of the law and based on the facts of the case, is 10th May 1951.

However, Vahanvati mian, throws out all law and jurisprudence and gives a notoriously outlandish opinion that the DOB of VKS must stay as 10th May 1950, because, otherwise, the "line of succession" already decided for the next COAS would be affected.

This perverted view is, of course, promptly accepted by Anthony lungiwallah, Salman Khurshid (the low-life Minority-quota wallah), Chiddu Spectrumambaram, and the other assorted deviants in the current GOI's centre of power. The ever-complicit PM is equally involved, though, later on, the slippery eel will claim he didn't know what was going on.

Now, what is this gibberish "line of succession" that Mian Vahanvati is talking about ? The Indian Army is not a tinpot monarchy that has these orders of precedence laid out for the top position. Any Army Commander or equivalent, is eligible for appointment as COAS. Certainly, the senior-most, among them, has been the usual choice, but this seniority is on the basis of a valid DOB scenario for everybody.

Vahanvati cannot say (and must not be allowed to say) that a wrong record of DOB of a current chief must determine the "line of succession". And that, too, a "Line of Succession" that was allegedly prescribed in 2006 and in 2008 by two unworthy Army Chiefs ?
This bizarre nonsense must be strongly challenged and refuted.

Now, I am constrained to mention the unmentionable. The logical conclusion of Vahanvati Mian's and Khurshid's contortions is that VKS will be succeeded as COAS by Lt. Gen. Bikram Singh, presently heading the Eastern Command in Kolkata. Now, why is this development ominous ?

Bikram Singh, indisputably, has a Pakistani daughter-in-law. Why is that a red flag ? Either the PMO, MOD, and the babus - netas in Raisina Hill are dreaming in colour or they are subscribers to the flat-earth theory. Surely, the India - Pakistan interface is not like the U.S. - Canada scenario. This is not to cast aspersions on the poor lady in question, but to realise that we all live in a real world environment where we cannot take risks with the nation's security at the highest level. This is not a stage or a platform where we can adopt a posture best described as utopian. Some would say "ostrich like".

In the past, this country's leaders like Nehru have taken great risks with our security by adopting this blinkered, naive approach. In the late 1950s and the early 60s, we had a very senior Foreign Service mandarin whose own brother was in the Pakistani foreign service in an equally senior position. For some time, the two brothers were Chiefs of Protocol in India and Pakistan. No one is saying that the IFS mandarin was unpatriotic, but there were grave risks involved - the situation was a recipe for disaster because of the possibility of totally involuntary mistakes.

A similar risk scenario in the late 1950s was when Humayun Kabir (for some time, a Minister in the Union Cabinet) had a first cousin who the chief of police in East Pakistan.

In the present context, we have to be even more cautious. Therefore, alarm bells must ring when people like Vahanvati and Khurshid, aided and abetted by Antony lungiwallah, Chiddu Chidambaram and MMS, are batting for a person who has an Achilles Heel, admittedly not of his own making.

This is a slightly long piece but I strongly feel that is my duty to pen my thoughts.

Let us hope the Supreme Court gives justice to the brave General.

In the meantime, I can only wish him courage and fortitude, and offer him my unflinching support. I am sure my fellow citizens will do the same.
..........................................................................................................

PERICLES : FUNERAL ORATION (431 BC)

"The greatness of Athens has been acquired by men who knew their duty and had the courage to do it, who, in the hour of conflict, had the fear of dishonour always present in them, who, if ever they failed in an enterprise, would not allow their virtues to be lost to their country, but freely gave their lives to her as the fairest offering which they could present at her feet".

P.S. These noble thoughts, I know, will be totally alien to the bunch of reprobates in Raisina Hill.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jan 2012 15:47

nelson wrote:"In 1949, GOI wanted to appoint Gen Thakur Nathu Singh as COAS in supercession of Gen Cariappa. He refused the offer, saying that Gen Cariappa was senior. No wonder, no one had the guts to mess with army officers! There was unity.
Contrast with today's sad state of affairs. All sorts of pretenders to the throne are warming up in the wings, some upgrading medical category, some biding their time." Things are vastly different and despicable today!

Funny about how medical catagory can be upgraded almost at will these days. At one time it was extremely difficult unless legitimately done.

It seems to be a case of jiska lathi uska bains

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 18 Jan 2012 15:51

Four former CJIs back Army Chief General VK Singh in age row

Hopefully, the CJI in chair see the merit too.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jan 2012 16:30

rajrang wrote:
chetak wrote:{quote="rajrang"}Gentlemen,

I see there is a lot of sympathy for Gen VKS in BR. But at some risk of offending many of you I am going to go against the grain because I am genuinely concerned about India. I believe VKS's only duty is to fight foreign invaders of India. (I realize that the IA is routinely used to fight internal armed insurgents as ordered by the Government of India.) He needs to have complete focus on his job which is to guard India's borders and not be distracted by other issues. If he wants to fight any other battle, he needs to resign first. His job is "not to reason why, but to do and die" and I quote from the Charge of the Light Brigade:

Someone had blunder'd
Theirs not to make reply
Theirs not to reason why
Theirs but to do and die
Into the valley of death
rode the six hundred

The entire episode is unfortunate and might serve as a role model for the men and women of the 1.3 million IA to "reason why" and that will be the begining of the end of the IA as it exists today and seriously harm India's future as a free society.

By the way has their ever been an episode similar to this in other democracies? All democracies are imperfect, some more than others. Even within army organizations, I am sure imperfections abound. Definitely Britain of 1854 (Charge of the Light Brigade) was far from perfect.

Again my apologies in advance if my viewpoint hurts anyone's sentiments.

What of his personal rights? Should he give up that also? Is that your idea of civilian control??

The civilians can lie and cheat against the General but Gen VKS must keep quiet and simply die??

It is not the job of the IA to correct the wrongs of the civilian government.

You haven't answered the question, sirjee

Is it your contention that anyone can wrong the Army man and he is bound to keep quiet just because the people who wronged him are civilians??

Is this your idea of "civilian control"? as peddled by the MOD jokers!!

kunalverma · Post by **kunalverma** » 18 Jan 2012 17:08

Former Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat has caused a stir with his comment on Monday that political and other interests were behind the age controversy.
Speaking to Mail Today on Tuesday, he reiterated his charge and said the row was just a smokescreen so that the government could "push the present head of the institution to forced and premature retirement" and bring in a person of its choice.

Giving out his reasons for why General Singh was being "targeted", the former admiral said the army chief's tough stand on the issue of corruption in the higher echelons of the army had pitted him against the government.
"Of course, this is the reason. Former chief justice of India J. S. Varma has said Singh had brought in probity and honesty. He is being moved out just when large arms deals are going to be signed. Which means that the arms lobby and a few people who are going to be affected are behind this," Bhagwat alleged.

Without elaborating, he said "external interests", which included countries, arms lobbies and political parties with vested interests, were trying to destabilise the armed forces and hence were planting stories against Singh.
Bhagwat also faulted the government's "line of succession" stand for rejecting the army chief's plea, saying there was no such thing in the army.

"The line of succession is a concept which is related to royalty and monarchy. We are a republic and in a republic, there is no place for 'line of succession'. The attorney general has been repeating the same thing (line of succession) again and again simply because he has no other argument," Bhagwat said.
He added that the only time the 'line of succession' is used is when the commander of an army formation is killed in action. Then, it is laid down, that the second in command will take over that formation.

"Surely, when the attorney general is talking about the line of succession, he is not referring to that," he said.

Picking holes in the government's stand, the former navy chief said law minister Salman Khurshid claimed that while the government held General V. K. Singh in high esteem, it has to go by the rules. But the government's action, Bhagwat claimed, was contrary to rules.

"The government has to go by the provisions of the statutory Act of the army, navy and air force. The joint secretary, which is the nodal point for the army in the defence ministry, has already categorically stated that Singh's year of birth was 1951. So that closes the issue," he said.

Read more at: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/army ... 69305.html

The Admiral's comments are bang on. The 'smokescreen' is precisely what needs to be penetrated.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 18 Jan 2012 17:16

"Two 4* generals" serving at the same time! We will be the laughing stock of the entire world,but this is a typical Indian babu innovation.Remember how we had "joint captains" for our hockey team at Mexico? They lost the gold and were derisively described as "bronze prancers" in the media.

This betrays the mendacity and venality of the MMS regime,the worst ever in Indian Independent history.This gang of scumbags,scamsters and swindlers led by the "clean and honest" godfther,good Dr. Singh,has lost over $100 billion through fraud-and that is just the tip of the iceberg.We now have new news of Chiddu's favouritism for his old connections with Vedanta over iron ore duty reduction,favouring Sesa Goa in media reports.This controversy has damaged the reputation of the IA,which is responsible for the security of the nation where its soldiers are willing to lay down their lives,serving in hellish Himalayan conditions,so that the corrupt politicos and babus can snore peacefully at night!

I only wish that the good general had not given the media interviews which he did,which has laid him open to charges of wanting to stay in his seat,and putting "self before service".I feel that this was a very bad error of judgement on his part.He should've remained silent,and only after failing to get redressal from the GOI,either resigned in protest,and/or fired off his bombshell in the SC which would've been the equivalent of another nuclear test!
I also strongly feel that if he wins his case,he should NOT offer to resign and let the GOI appoint his successor in such indecent haste (let them ack him if they dare), and serve out his full term which he will be entitled too.If reports are true that he did offer to resign in May if the GOI acceopted his DOB as he has stated - a sort of compromise,it would again appear to be another serious error of judgemnt.Let us ask ourselves a theoretical Q,how would our two erstwhile FMs,Manekshaw and Cariappa have acted if they were faced with such a situation?

Despite expecting him to fight his case in court,with the massive dust this controversy has raised,his action has still been a huge shocker. The GOI/MMS/AKA/MOD look likke a bunch of vindictive villains and whatever the merits of the case and its verdict,have turned Gen.Singh into a martyr,just like Adm.Bhagwat.His claim to fame and his leagcy are now surely assured,as the man who had the guts to fight his political bosses "mano-a-mano".Not that the GOI has displayed its manhood in the true sense of the word!

This affair has also brought the IA into great disrepute.How can an institution like the IA,which is expected to be scrupulous in the extreme with its details and facts,which recorded the general's age on his certificates of commendation,including the PVSM as being born in 1951,then decide at a late stage in his career to "age" him by a year! The saying that "common sense is not so common" has a special bearing in this case.AKA has displayed little of it,as one editorial commented.This GOI must then either declare the general a "liar" and sack him,or acknowledge that he is a man of honour,accept his age as stated and allow him to complete his full term.Whatever the verdict of the court,this appears to be highly unlkely.This GOI has litle honour and chivalry.It will learn to its dismay how much it has angered the nation when the next election arrives.

PS:Adm.Bhagwat is "bang on" indeed!

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 18 Jan 2012 17:26

rohitvats wrote:
Austin wrote:What would be interesting to see if if Court accepts VKS argument for 1951 as DOB then what impact will it have on career and promotions of other officers at that point in time when 1950 was the basis used for promotion for VKS.<SNIP>
You really don't tire from making the same incorrect argument again and again, do you? Where has it been mentioned that the good general secured his current position on the basis of 1950 as DOB? Or others denied promotion because of this? Irrespective of his DOB as 1951 or 1950, he was to become the chief. Unless, any of the other contenders came from his course, they would have been younger to him. here again, from what I've been able to gather from one of his coursemate is that he is the youngest cadet from the 36th NDA.

I think this comes from the mistaken belief that promotions are based on DOB. AFAIK the only time DOB comes into consideration is for determining seniority for COAS position. All other promotions (except time scale) are based on ACR, other appraisals and DOB. And other factors. A mere advantageous DOB will not secure you promotions.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Jan 2012 17:43

This betrays the mendacity and venality of the MMS regime,the worst ever in Indian Independent history.This gang of scumbags,scamsters and swindlers led by the "clean and honest" godfther,good Dr. Singh,has lost over $100 billion through fraud-and that is just the tip of the iceberg.We now have new news of Chiddu's favouritism for his old connections with Vedanta over iron ore duty reduction,favouring Sesa Goa in media reports.This controversy has damaged the reputation of the IA,which is responsible for the security of the nation where its soldiers are willing to lay down their lives,serving in hellish Himalayan conditions,so that the corrupt politicos and babus can snore peacefully at night!

+1

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 18 Jan 2012 17:45

merlin wrote: A mere advantageous DOB will not secure you promotions.

Will DOB matter when there are two potential candidates, equal in all other aspects (ACRs, past performance records etc.)?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 18 Jan 2012 17:51

Sachin wrote:
merlin wrote: A mere advantageous DOB will not secure you promotions.
Will DOB matter when there are two potential candidates, equal in all other aspects (ACRs, past performance records etc.)?

No. In such (an almost hypothetical) situation only the IC number of the individual will matter. The earlier IC number will walk away with the spoils, so to speak

kunalverma · Post by **kunalverma** » 18 Jan 2012 17:52

All this talk of resigning is a whole lot of rubbish. VKS is like the bone in the Govt's throat that it can neither dispel nor swallow.
Two days ago I posted on BR my comment on what I call 'Moses List'. Moses parted the sea, and cleared the way for his followers. Since 2006 the same thing began happening in the highest echelons of the Indian Army when the 'look down' policy was brought into play. I name the officers concerned yet again - Brigadier Padam Budhwar, Major Generals Ravi Arora, Shujan Chatterjee and AK Singh. In our pyramidical structure people get superseded and side lined, but in these four cases these four officers were 'boarded out' in a motivated manner. Being a subjective issue, it can always be argued against, but the one common factor in the entire game was that the 'line of succession' was being spelt out and adhered to. VKS was the fifth name on the list, and since he couldn't be eliminated, his tenure had to be truncated.
Once this sort of nonsense and politics was allowed to start within the Army, it was a matter of time before the bureaucrats got their foot in and what is happening now is a direct result of that.
Comments against the successor are also completely out of place. No one becomes an Army Commander in the Indian Army without having something going for him. The issue here is that those who are pointing out that the 'look down policy' is suicidal for the army in the long run probably have nothing personal against the person at the receiving end - the problem is more to do with the people who have manipulated the entire system.
I personally feel that VKS, by stating that it is a personal issue which concerns only him, has actually put his head on the line. In a way he is insulating the army from the backlash which will surely come from the holy trinity - a element within the army, the bureaucrats and the politician. He's fired a shot into the beehive and now they are gunning for him every which way. Just think about it, if he had one hair out of place, by now they would have hung him from the yardarm!
Lastly, how come no one is saying that the Defence Secretary, The AG, the Law Minister, the Defence Minister et all should resign despite every Tom, Dick and Harry saying that things should never have come this far! One Lt General was going on on NDTV (I think) about how VKS's action had affected the morale of the Indian Army. You bet it has - most officers I know feel that finally someone is standing up and fighting, and finally there's some Calcium in the backbone!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 18 Jan 2012 18:01

Sachin wrote:
merlin wrote: A mere advantageous DOB will not secure you promotions.
Will DOB matter when there are two potential candidates, equal in all other aspects (ACRs, past performance records etc.)?

Yes. The senior gets the post.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 18 Jan 2012 18:21

pranav

please do not derail this with your EVM track. you have you own thread to play around for that.

Pranav · Post by **Pranav** » 18 Jan 2012 18:59

Surya wrote:pranav

please do not derail this with your EVM track. you have you own thread to play around for that.

The "derailment" happened when somebody claimed that elections are a corrective against the misdeeds of the government of the day. I did not see you protest at that point.