Large Infrastructure Projects: Inertia and Opposition

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Kanson
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Post by Kanson »

I'm amused rather than perplexed to the kind of development going on. I remember how the NASA picture on Adams bridge was recirculated again & again among believers as well as non-believers in the nascent age of Internet. Its like someone unrelated to you acknowledging what you are believing so long in the language universally accepted in this age called science. And here we are paying attention to some rogues who dont have any science degree to their credit dis-crediting the information projected by the scientific bodies in Abroad and India.

After Ayodhya incident in 1990's, one said, whether it is good or bad, see the whole nation is chanting the name of Lord Rama, which itself is considered as mantra; our nation will become prosperous.His congnition didnt proved false. Now the stupid genious is reigniting the dying flame into jawala and again the mantra is chanted throught the country, lets hope it will be much better this time :lol: . I was rather confident given the circumstances, probably, the next government will not be a coalition. How can one be too complacent on fate is the answer i'm getting. Lets see.

Some here are too much worked up on dravidian-aryan theories...Though there are some evidence and different of practise in some customs been observed between north & south, we dont have to behave like racist just becoz some idiots are crackling some jokes. Like Marathas, like Pubjabis, like bengalis, dravidians take pride in their culture & heritage and I see no one from that region talking anything about dravidian or aryan now-a-days as a kind of super race.

On Q Is Ram not worhsipped as God in Tamil Nadu ?
Most of the names having word Ram i see in day-to-day life are mostly from TN and nearby region, ex. B.Raman to so many forms of rama. For rhetorical Idiots, when they themselves accept that the Monkey related to Ram belongs to their land and that paritcular Monkey is worshipped all over that place, how come the Lord of that Monkey is not worshipped as God in that region, hmm? IIRC, in the word of a british man, he saw two men with bow and arrow protected a lake adjacent to a Ram temple in Chennai, later identified as Lord Ram & Lakshman. I dont know whether it is a story or real incident but Ram is worshipped all over India including TN.
rgsrini
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Post by rgsrini »

BJP demands dismissal of DMK ministers
the BJP on Friday turned aggressive on the Ram Setu issue demanding immediate dismissal of all DMK ministers at the Centre if Tamil Nadu Chief Minister Karunanidhi failed to withdraw "blasphemous" remarks on Lord Ram.


Enqoob... Left has come full circle now...
CPM backs Karunanidhi on Ram Setu

Coming to the support of Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi on his remarks on Ram, he said: "in this country, there are people with religious beliefs and people like us. It is not wrong to express an opinion"
Kanson
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Post by Kanson »

Coming to the support of Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi on his remarks on Ram, he said: "in this country, there are people with religious beliefs and people like us. It is not wrong to express an opinion"

I just saw few clippings of Mr. Karat, whos worth not even a carat, talking all non-sense. Irony is a security/office cadet standing behind karat in the clipping is wearing a saffron tilak in his fore-head. Dont tell anyone it could be a God's conspiracy :lol: Or, that may He might be telling, whatever you shout, I'm the protector you Idiot human-being. :lol:
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Post by rgsrini »

Theo
Second, I would love to see as much concern when other holy sites of Hinduism are developed. Where was this outrage when the Sardar Sarovar flooded one of the holiest rivers the Narmada. Where was the outrage when the Tehri dam was built flooding holy Baghirati. Just for your reference Ram also traveled the river Bhagirathi and praised it holy waters and the Sons of Pandu washed their sins in this river. There are several more rdams in construction on this river.
Once again it is not about Ram setu for most people. It is the utter disrespect for hindu belief that MK had exhibited... In case of other issues I doubt if any other MK was standing there deriding Hindus and their beliefs.
- Third do you not trust Tamils to take care of the hindu holy sites. Whats with this belief we need to to prove anything to anyone. The Tamilian leaders do see more than just a hint of racial bias here. The portrayal of Dravidian's are barbarians and thugs who wantonly challenge the gods.
Where did anyone say that Tamils cannot take care of hindu holy sites... even though in this case there is a very dismissive attitude towards Hindus sensibilities.


- Fourth. I reiterate all kinds of precautions and options were considered before this particular alignment was chosen. The Ramar Sethu WAS carefully considered and minimal MINIMAL changes were planned on specified route. Far FAR less than a 300 Meter high Dam and Kilometers long reservoir
Good for the project. What else can I say here.

-
Fifth had this been a project in OH say Gujarat with Modi in charge you think there would be this hysteria, would Modi have hesitated a heart beat to advance his state
.
What do you think the proponents of Setu (such as CPM and DMK) will do if Modi razes down a mosque to build a much needed highway. Stand at the side of the road and applaud...


-
Sixth, I have to toss it out here, All those Tam Brahm's in Dilli who are showing up on TV are doing a complete disservice to Tamilians. Esp. that traitor Subramaniam Swamy. He will sell his mother if the price was adequate. They are whipping up the national sentiment against their own state, calling them Ram Drohi's of all things.
Okay... there comes the hidden anti-brahminism... I was surprised that you could hold it in you for so long...
Think about what you have written for a moment. It is okay for MK to spit on Hindu sentiments... That is acceptable. It is not okay if someone points it out... These lowly tamil brahmins... kill them.
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Post by indygill »

For people like Theo_Fidel

All your arguments in your last post do not present base for destroying a holy site revered by millions.

You want to claim that all Hindus are not the same fine they are not

But Ram and this site is holy to Vashnavi denomination of Hindus and they number over 580 million. And their religious sentiments and faith is good enough reason to stop a project. Especially when it is destroying one of their holy sites.

There is no other arguments. Bottom line it will not be done in its present form, yes it will be done from the part that environmentlist are trying to protect. That too if it ever goes ahead.

Fact is that it is a question or "faith" not "science". Anyone who is proposing to aggreviate majority based on "faith" is a national "traitor" and "enemy" of the nation. You want to have a majority "religious" war in India fine lets have it.

you decide what is important to you a short term vested goal or India. This insulting Ram and Ramyana got to stop. No one has right to question Ram or Ramayana or their Holy sites. Thats the bottom line. It has become a issue of Hindu faith now. it is not a political issue of BJP or RSS anymore.

Like someone mentioned, maybe in Madras people do not care but in Delhi yes people are offended and do not like the nonesese thats going on.
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Post by rgsrini »

maybe in Madras people do not care
Again...recheck your assumptions
indygill
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Post by indygill »

I said i read in one of the posts ... here it is
I talked to a friend who just visited Madras, I asked him how/what is the reaction of public - 'are they all talking about the infrastructure development and Sethu issue". He said "nope, everybody is just going about their business as usual".
My point is simple fine its ok it maybe non-issue there but not everywhere else. It is evident from the fact that their CM can blabber blasphmey and get away with it in the state. it shows it all.
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Post by rgsrini »

fair enough...Indygill
SwamyG
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Post by SwamyG »

Seriously, let us forget if Ramar or Ramayanam were all a myth and such.

For argument's sake let us accept:

A.) Ramar was real.

What is the real opposition if a very small segment is going to be chipped away, and a new "poonya sthalam" created for it? Kakkaji was the first here to suggest a museum. Many liked that idea. I suggest apart from a tourist museum a brand new temple, unlike any other, be built in say a place that does not have much going.

The main structure still stays, a new Ramar temple gets created, a new holy modern town is formed, tourism gets a boost, locals get the benefit, the Ships get to gain 30~ hours (and other sundry unquantified benefits).

Of course the key is all dredging etc has no ecological/geological/economical or other scientific negative consequences. Though I also like the idea of helping the "girl" than the "fish" analogy, if the area has the potential to be our own Hawii, Cancun or Carribean - why spoil it!

1) The nation/region gets the benefit from the canal.
2) We Hindus get a new holy place for Ramar in the bargain.

B.) Ramar was imaginary.

All the things said in A) still hold good, and we Hindus get a new holy place :twisted:

Hats off to Kakkaji
for the initial suggestion, I am totally sold out on that proposition. Like I said, earlier, if there can be some crucial clauses placed and the funds arranged, it is a win-win situation.
hnair
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Post by hnair »

Theo, you have some points that I agree with, but take it easy on the national relevance and religious angle (as seen from your view) part. And the latter completely fogs out everything else here in this forum!!
Theo_Fidel wrote: - First Sethu is not a national project. It was and remains a dream of Tamils alone. Money being important, please note that of the 2,500 crore project cost, less than 400 crore is from the central govt. Rest is from state government, TN ports and State agencies likely to benefit. The state could easily forgo the central component.

Though the state is funding it, it is a national project because of its impact. It is relevant to all of us, if coastal shipping gets a boost. I for one, would love to see some heavy industries come up around Southern Tamilnadu, so that atleast the Gulf drain of qualified people from both South Kerala and South Tamilnadu are reduced (hoping for "industries in Kerala" is like hoping for Ravana to stop drooling at other's wife). A major part of the Gulf bound traffic at Trivandrum airport are skilled folks from Southern Tamilnadu districts.
- Second, I would love to see as much concern when other holy sites of Hinduism are developed. Where was this outrage when the Sardar Sarovar flooded one of the holiest rivers the Narmada. Where was the outrage when the Tehri dam was built flooding holy Baghirati. Just for your reference Ram also traveled the river Bhagirathi and praised it holy waters and the Sons of Pandu washed their sins in this river. There are several more rdams in construction on this river.
This is equal-equalitis of the feeble sort. And in my mind not at all required to bolster your valid points on regional development. It is the water in the rivers that you cited above, that is sacred. Not the shape or depth of the river. All these rivers, inspite of the dams, are eminently bathable during some holy days etc. Ram or Pandu can still wash their sins, after visiting the penstocks and generator houses! And nothing prevents a naked Naga Swamy from doing a cannonball while yelling "Shiva Shambo!" or something ;)

But in the case of Raman's causeway (darn, it is not a bridge first of all!!), the structure (that suddenly became holy) does get altered. Hence the easy triggering of emotions.
- Third do you not trust Tamils to take care of the hindu holy sites. Whats with this belief we need to to prove anything to anyone. The Tamilian leaders do see more than just a hint of racial bias here. The portrayal of Dravidian's are barbarians and thugs who wantonly challenge the gods.
That was never the case. In Kerala, despite frowning at public discharge of bodily matters, Tamil devotees on pilgrimages to Kerala temples are looked at with respect for their strong sense of devotion and humility. I am yet to hear a Tamil devotee acting boorish, even in an insanely crowded place like Sabarimala during peak season.

And all major temples of Tamilnadu are living and thriving areas, not dead end places that iconoclastic folks would love to believe.
- Fourth. I reiterate all kinds of precautions and options were considered before this particular alignment was chosen. The Ramar Sethu WAS carefully considered and minimal MINIMAL changes were planned on specified route. Far FAR less than a 300 Meter high Dam and Kilometers long reservoir
Now, THAT is a valid point. I mean the first two statements :)
- Fifth had this been a project in OH say Gujarat with Modi in charge you think there would be this hysteria, would Modi have hesitated a heart beat to advance his state.
Bingo!! That is the problem - when playing "Chicken" with cars on a cliff, Modi is smart enough to know when to veer off, (though he was not that smart post-Godhra). And there were other states that carried out sensitive projects. But a CM hollering dated rhetoric that once sold well in his state and expecting smooth sailing? That too to a national audience? Unfortunately MK thought his car can fly off the cliff face. Ahamedinejad-type behavior doesn't help in the long term, though it might make one's constituency happy.
- Sixth, I have to toss it out here, All those Tam Brahm's in Dilli who are showing up on TV are doing a complete disservice to Tamilians. Esp. that traitor Subramaniam Swamy. He will sell his mother if the price was adequate. They are whipping up the national sentiment against their own state, calling them Ram Drohi's of all things.
C'mmon!! TamBrams at the centre are the envy of the rest of the states, for their dedication to their jobs!! Hell, we even tried importing them via Palghat and Padmanabhapuram ;)
- Seventh you remember that piece of the Sethu that is now in lanka. Originally the maritime boundary of TN included much of that water. This territory was ceded to lanka by the central government in 1974 over the heated objection of TN. Most of it was fishing rights but part of it was the presence of Sethu. For the longest time the state refused to gazette the order, till AMMA, that greater protector of the holies, ceded it away in her first innings. The Dravidian leaders have refused to accept this and the have sworn to bring it back some day. From the rest of the nation silence. To this day lanka shoots and kills the fishermen who visit the area, even using mortar shells recently, undoubtedly destroying parts of the Ram Sethu. Where was this national outrage then I wonder.
Ceding of Mullaitheevu to SLanka, I agree, was incredibly stupid. As stupid as the Pakis ceeding Northern Areas to China. But the frequent machine gunning of Tamil fisherman by SLNavy did cause a national outrage during the later part of '80s. That was one of the reasons that pressured Rajiv into the accord. wasn't it?
The only logical solution is to build the sethu with a large appropriate yagna, ask for Ram's blessing, recover the material, build a shrine to house it and maybe do the glass bottomed boat thing.
Indeed!! Infact I would say build colossal statues - one of a muscular Hanuman about to jump and another of the Rama, Laxmana etc gazing towards IOR (Lanka is passe, we have a 1000 headed greedy chaps to tackle :twisted: ). These statues should tower over the shipping lanes and must be taller than the bridge of even an Emma Maersk. And should be visible from far off. I am talking about Argonath of Anduin tall :twisted:
indygill
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Post by indygill »

Fine SwamyG

you are suggesting to open pandara box.

Lets barter. Hindus are willing to give up some of the holy site but in return we want Temple in Ayodhya. Persuade the the other community to "compromise" too. And list will go on every community will play the game.

Its mind boggling that Why does everyone think that "Hindu" faith and sentiments are always up for "compromise". They have bend over agaian and again.

Solution is very simple.... make it go through the parts that environmentalists want to protect. Persuade "environmentalists to "compromise" not "faith".

Faith is either "absolute" or "nothing". There is not middle line when it comes to faith.
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Post by SwamyG »

indygill wrote:I said i read in one of the posts ... here it is
I talked to a friend who just visited Madras, I asked him how/what is the reaction of public - 'are they all talking about the infrastructure development and Sethu issue". He said "nope, everybody is just going about their business as usual".
My point is simple fine its ok it maybe non-issue there but not everywhere else. It is evident from the fact that their CM can blabber blasphmey and get away with it in the state. it shows it all.
Whoa whoa wait a minute. It does not show what you purport to be. Just like you point out what is blasphemy for one is not blasphemy for the other. In any big city, life goes on as usual even after major incidents. That's what it shows, people go on with their lives in spite of what the politicians dish out - Ramar or Ravanan.

Also it shows not all Hindus wear their religion on their sleeves, but we care about Hinduism as much as any one else.
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Post by rgsrini »

The main structure still stays, a new Ramar temple gets created, a new holy modern town is formed
I don't care for new temples or holy towns. We have more than enough already. Frankly, I will provide my full support if the government comes up with a ban on building temples/mosques/churches and provide a directive to consolidate all the existing mini ones into big organized ones. But this has to be done honestly with an attitude of partnership instead of the one exhibited by MK here.

I am also afraid that they will end up creating a disgusting monstrosity such as the Thiruvalluvar statue in Kanyakumari (no scope for artistry, architecture or awe inspiring details in that project). Just a bunch of rock placed on top of each other. Thiruvalluvar stands with his hips pushed to one side like a shemale... "Ombodu" (or the number 9) in tamil.

About Ram setu, I will settle for glass bottom boat /submarine tours along the old Ram setu and scuba diving/snorkeling tours near the coral reefs as long as the guide was not given a standing instruction to deride "Hinduism".
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Post by SwamyG »

indygill wrote:Fine SwamyG

you are suggesting to open pandara box.

Lets barter. Hindus are willing to give up some of the holy site but in return we want Temple in Ayodhya. Persuade the the other community to "compromise" too. And list will go on every community will play the game.
It reminds me of a tamil saying, "daanam koodutha maata palla poodingi paarthanam" (fascinating concept; loose meaning: do not research the gift horse)

We are not giving up anything. If at all we are giving up for our own well wish. Ramar gave up Sita for his subjects. Can't we let go of few submerged rocks (which are actually going to be housed in a temple/museum) ?

Frankly, there is no question about any other community here. Muslims and Chrisitians do not even enter the picture. I consider it is just incidental that Theo seems to be a Christian.
Its mind boggling that Why does everyone think that "Hindu" faith and sentiments are always up for "compromise". They have bend over agaian and again.
Explain, how is it a compromise; when we are getting some more in return.
Last edited by SwamyG on 22 Sep 2007 00:58, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Bade »

Building a temple might set a bad precedent with others asking for equal equal treatment in such matters. But there is nothing that should stop putting a marker indicating the use of the causeway/bridge by Rama based on accounts in the Ramayana. It is part of India's national identity even if it is not a religious symbol for many.

I like the idea mentioned by hnair of putting a massive statue of Hanuman who actually helped build the sethu for Rama. There are more Hanuman Bhaktas in northern India perhaps than one would find in the South, so some of Theo's earlier allegations on type-casting the south is not valid.

BTW, the Sucheendram temple in TN (kanyakumari district) has a huge Hanuman in granite as a deity is what I recall.
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Post by SwamyG »

Srini: Why bother the intention of Karunanidhi, when we stand to gain. You or I might not mind the coming up of a new temple,(yes, I see it purely from give and take concept) but others would surely.

Let us not ruin something just because we do not like or agree with KK.
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Post by svinayak »

indygill wrote:
you decide what is important to you a short term vested goal or India. This insulting Ram and Ramyana got to stop. No one has right to question Ram or Ramayana or their Holy sites. Thats the bottom line. It has become a issue of Hindu faith now. it is not a political issue of BJP or RSS anymore.

Like someone mentioned, maybe in Madras people do not care but in Delhi yes people are offended and do not like the nonesese thats going on.
THis is correct stand. What MK does not realise is that there are millions who have faith and he has to look at the sensitivity when he is in the public office. he thought that this is the 60s where the Dravidian silly divide politics is still relavent.
Coming to the support of Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi on his remarks on Ram, he said: "in this country, there are people with religious beliefs and people like us. It is not wrong to express an opinion"
Then why dont they treat all religions in the same way instead of Targetting the Hindus. They could get away till now with their pretense but not any more
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Post by rgsrini »

Swamy G Wrote:
Srini: Why bother the intention of Karunanidhi, when we stand to gain
Once again... I am not against the project. I am all for TN becoming prosperous and the poor fisherman and rich traders getting more money and opportunities. More power to them.

I am just against the attitude of MK. If he wants the project to succeed, he has to make sure that he does not offend the stake holders. If he does that, to soothe his massive ego, he has to be ready to face the consequences. He has been doing this for 50 years now. So far his noise only offended Tam Brahms. Now he has just managed to offend a larger group... That's all. I will be happy if he is made to pay for this somehow.

The project can and will go on whether it is DMK or AIADMK or Congress or BJP...
Last edited by rgsrini on 22 Sep 2007 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Yerna »

Theo_Fidel wrote:- Fifth had this been a project in OH say Gujarat with Modi in charge you think there would be this hysteria, would Modi have hesitated a heart beat to advance his state.
I am not sure if he would have hesitated in demolishing Dwaraka's ruins if it would bring prosperity to Gujarat, but I am sure about one thing though - Modi, or any other CM for that matter, wouldn't have started off that by saying ' Just who the F*** is krishna' Or ' Which engineering college did he go to build a city in water'.

I was a supporter of Sethu Samudram project, but now thanks to that Jerk called Karunanidhi, I have become a staunch opponent. Tamil Nadu will suffer you may say, let them suffer for electing a man like that. TN is not an island country that can make its own decisions, it is a part of The Union of India and it has a responsibility towards the 900 million or so people who live outside its borders. And this responsibility includes not rubbing them off in the wrong way.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

hnair wrote:Theo, you have some points that I agree with, but take it easy on the national relevance and religious angle (as seen from your view) part. And the latter completely fogs out everything else here in this forum!!
Yah! I've been studiously avoiding the trolls here but just wanted to give a blast on how it looks from this side. If Rambakths are tenacious, these Dravidian Bellas are worse. This sort of relentless pressure will drive them to do something crazy rather than logical.
hnair wrote:This is equal-equalitis of the feeble sort.
Was trying to get to seven points. Sacred number in my book.

hnair wrote:That was never the case. In Kerala, despite frowning at public discharge of bodily matters, Tamil devotees on pilgrimages to Kerala temples are looked at with respect for their strong sense of devotion and humility. I am yet to hear a Tamil devotee acting boorish, even in an insanely crowded place like Sabarimala during peak season.
And all major temples of Tamilnadu are living and thriving areas, not dead end places that iconoclastic folks would love to believe.
I have got to thank you guys for the graciousness involved. Some of those black shirts can be scarry.

Do something about the Mangaladevi Temple will ya! It was pretty decrepit last time I swung thru. Took 5 hours! to cross the border.
hnair wrote:That too to a national audience?
I'm still convinced KK did not intend the national audience to catch this. I've heard him rail against religion in general previously in similarly vicious terms. Even Ram at time or two. Of course it doesn't matter now. The best thing would be for him to keep quiet for a while now.
hnair wrote: Hell, we even tried importing them via Palghat and Padmanabhapuram ;)
Hey! Padmanabhapuram is still in TN, last I checked. One of those silly accidents of history. Whats with the creeping colonisation.

Tam Brah's are incredibly efficient workers. Must be all that Thir-Sadam. Other's have accused me of hatred for them, discounting that I'm actually married to one. Many of my best friends are T'Brahmins. Most agree that ganging up in dilli against the CM of your state is not wise policy.
hnair wrote: Ceding of Mullaitheevu to SLanka, I agree, was incredibly stupid. As stupid as the Pakis ceeding Northern Areas to China. But the frequent machine gunning of Tamil fisherman by SLNavy did cause a national outrage during the later part of '80s. That was one of the reasons that pressured Rajiv into the accord. wasn't it?
Its actually Kachativu, distinct from Mullaitivu, a LTTE stronghold near Jaffna. Yes I do remember those sentiments. But the killings have not stopped over the last 15 years. Then we have this.
hnair wrote: Indeed!! Infact I would say build colossal statues - one of a muscular Hanuman about to jump and another of the Rama, Laxmana etc
This is Cyclone territory. If one of the Argonath/Hanuman statues should perchance topple... ... we would never hear the end of it, from the rest of the world as well.

:lol:

Also Hanuman is a much more popular god in TN than Ram. You see Hanuman temples everywhere. In Kamba Ramayan he is the only one who comes out unscathed, with no bad qualities. He is definitely considered someone to emulate. Now if KK had attacked Hanuman, the reaction might be different.

I'm convinced Kamban deliberately intended this as Hanuman was the God of the southern peoples. FWIW.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 22 Sep 2007 01:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

Enqoob... Left has come full circle now...
CPM backs Karunanidhi on Ram Setu


Not full circle - just 180 degrees. CPM was dead set against the project as recently as 200x, x<5. All our fliends, like AID-INDIA, DYFI, TNSF, etc. were goading the fisherfolk to take to violence against the project.

Now that the Holy Energizer Bunnies are doing their obstruction/violence work for them the Commies are doing what comes best to them - stand back and pour gasoline on the fire. You know, I believe that it was these oiseules who ACTUALLY started the fire inside the S-6 coach of the Sabarmati express? They wound up the stupid Islamic yahoos to throw rocks, but the chain-pulling / fire-setting was way too smooth and totally inhuman to be executed competently by those idiots.

Same here - they see that they can start a conflagration in TN, while remaining oh-so-"supportive" of the Cong-I govt. Unfortunately, the "hindus" are also idiots enough that they will fall for this.

Theo/ Kanson:

The evidence is there all right. Point is this:

The legends have been totally proven by the NASA images. No one standing on the shore at either Dhanushkodi or Talaimannar would have any reason to imagine such a long causeway across the ocean. Most people simply do not grasp the size of this, or the type of sea that is there. Let me just say that in crossing through those parts some 20 times, it never occurred to me that the sea could be anything other than rough, with green, foam-topped waves. It was always scary, and you don't just look down and see any rocks. 6meters is 18 feet of green water, and that's the most shallow it becomes. And the closest distance there, Talaimannar - Dhanushkodi, is a good FIFTEEN MILES. Not in visible range at all, and there is no point higher than sea level by more than the height of a lighthouse on either shore.

So how did the legend come about?

This was why the NASA images were so stunning - they showed how close to connected and complete the causeway was, and how narrow, and yet how clean and direct. I have a very hard time imagining this to be an all-natural structure. If it was tectonics that created such a thin sharp ridge (and that only some 20m high?) the forces would have been severe enough to blast it, and create a huge canal in the middle anyway. It is just not plausible that this could have been created naturally, and it is even less plausible that someone would have written a fictional account of exactly such a causeway in EXACTLY THAT place. NO WAY.

For the rest, the evidence is in the findings by those who dug there: the finding that the coral formations have sand above AND BELOW them. So why did those coral formations come and decide to stop there? I think the evidence for a human hand in engineering that, is overwhelming, faith or no faith.

And by the way, there is no other plausible explanation than the one in the Ramayana. The others who called it "Adam's Bridge" or "Victoria's Ass" or "King Kong's Mijjile" or whatever, had no plausible explanation to go with it. Even the Sri Lankans, who are on the other side, and had no reason to LIKE this legend, had no other explanation for it.

But...I think the "NASA image" being circulated by the RSS is photoshopped. It is not THAT continuous or smooth. But take a look on GOOGLE, and you can see what is really seen. It is still mind-boggling.
his is Cyclone territory. If one of the Argonath/Hanuman statues should perchance topple... ... we would never hear the end of it, from the rest of the world as well.


No problem. Hanuman can be sitting and meditating. Or sitting with his middle finger raised towards Ravana. 8)
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Post by svinayak »


Ram Setu issue will change the intellectual discourse and polity's agenda in a much stronger way than Minakshipuram. To humiliate and convert Hindus have always been on the minds of the aliens and the alienated. And to emerge victorious is the swabhav , the essential virtue of Ram.

Ram built the bridge to rescue Sita and punish the wicked. Every Prime Minister comes to Ram Lila grounds in Delhi to shoot the first arrow on Dussehra day standing with Ram for a photo op. The same Prime Minister and the Super one has done it last year and will do it again soon. With what conviction? Do they believe in what they do as a ritual? They have become a party to assaults on the faith of Ram.

People are not too naïve to forget what they said last year while inaugurating the biggest ever project to demolish what millions believe Ram built. On Saturday, 2nd July 2005 (Madurai, Tamil Nadu), Mrs. Sonia Gandhi pushed the button to begin Ram Setu demolition and said, 'Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh ji , Thiru. Karunanidhi ji , Governor SS Barnala ji , Thiru T.R. Baalu, Distinguished Guests, Ladies and Gentlemen, 'Today, we realise a 150-year-old dream..........let me say how happy I am that the Sethusamudram project is being launched today. I congratulate and thank Thiru. T.R. Baalu and all those associated with this historic project. It is truly a day of satisfaction, a historic moment for Tamil Nadu and for the country.'( http://sethusamudram.gov.in/sji.htm ). If Ram is so sacred that an affidavit has to be withdrawn, why invade His memory by destroying the bridge He built?

It's part of an old game. Humiliate Hindus. Make them feel small and indefensible. Colour them as heathens and pagans, those who worship stones and snakes. They have no sense of history. First they asked for proofs where Ram was born. Birth certificate or a midwife's testimony. A media house suggested building toilets at the janmabhumi temple to 'end all the controversy and turn it into a public utility.' Another suggested a government hospital. None even raised a muffled murmur to rebuild temples destroyed in Kashmir. Hindus are used to it. Used to see their temples demolished, women raped, villages uprooted and mass conversions.

Those who feel hurt hearing voices of protest against Setu demolition, feel quite comfortable to write on Sallus and Shettys, as if nothing commendable happened at Doda or Rajouri. It's like eliminating the protecting walls and desecrating the courtyard before assaulting the sanctum sanctorum. The resistance power and the anger should never be allowed to get accumulated. Take a step, slap and see how strong the victim frowns and clinches his fists, come back saying, oh sorry, I didn't know it was you! Spectators would clap at your decency. After a gap, take another step. Make the target fatigued and confused. Take the elite, the most cowardly Rai Bahadurs along. They are the malls of virtuous sermons and Pentagons of safety walls. 'Oh I am also a Hindu, I do not believe in what this lunatic fringe say. They are against development; want to take back India to their bullock cart era.' They, who happily use the term Hindu rate of growth for a retarded economy, and one magazine used the re-coined term-Hindu rate of internet, to depict non-functional broadband regime, in an era when Hindus are creating history in economy, technology and medical sciences, Hindu icons are demolished to follow up on the Pope's declaration that after Europe and Africa, now is the turn to convert Asia.

The agnostics and the atheists begin preaching Hindus on how they should behave religiously. They have every right to hold on to their views. They can say, I do not believe in Ram and yet be a Hindu. None would announce a reward on their head. But do they also have a right to encroach upon the territory of the faithful?

Dredgers of the secular are not only working 'proudly' to undo Ram Setu (It is a matter of pride for Dredging Corporation of India Limited (DCI) to associate itself with the prestigious Sethusamudram Ship Channel Project (SSCP). http://dredge-india.nic.in/press-sethu1.htm) they are invading the sacred areas of the Hindus academically too and that's exactly is the title of a wonderful book ( www.invadingthesacred.com , Rupa ).The book exposes influential scholars who have disparaged the Bhagavad Gita as "a dishonest book"; declared Ganesha's trunk a "limp phallus"; classified the Hindu Devi as the "mother with a penis" and Shiva as "a notorious womaniser" who incites violence in India; pronounced Sri Ramakrishna a paedophile who sexually molested the young Swami Vivekananda; condemned Indian mothers as being less loving of their children than white women; and interpreted the bindi as a drop of menstrual fluid and the "ha" in sacred mantras as a woman's sound during orgasm. Rajiv Malhotra, while discussing how American scholars and academicians show an extreme kind of Hindu phobia while writing on Hindu issues, writes that the way a Hindu prayer in the US Senate, for the first time in its history, was opposed should be an eye-opener. It's noteworthy that US Senate has a long history of opening with Bible prayers and as recognition to the contributions of the Indian-Americans, a Hindu priest invited for the first time, too, got heckled. Malhotra writes 'the Hindu prayer was attacked as an "abomination" by hate-filled heckling that resulted from an organised mobilization by civic groups such as the American Family Association, attempting to demonise Hinduism as heathens, immoral and dangerously un-American.

David Barton, one of the scholars informing the attackers, declared that Hinduism was "not a religion that has produced great things in the world," citing social conditions in India as proof of its primitiveness. The denigration of Hinduism influences the way Americans relate to Indians. Andrew Rotter, an American historian, in his book on the US foreign policy's tilt against India and towards Pakistan during the Nehru era, cites declassified documents revealing US presidents' and diplomats' suspicions of Hinduism. They regarded "Hindu India" as lacking morality and integrity, and its "grotesque images" reminded them of previous pagan faiths conquered by Christians, such as Native Americans. American ideas about India are intertwined with stereotypes about Hinduism.

The same hate-filled attitude we see amongst the Indian ruling elite and the secular academia who are invading the Hindu space with support of immense resources by cornering all the media space and hijacking the right to represent India. They are the ones who control listing and the de-listing business in elite clubs and discussion forums, publishing houses and channel regimes, countless columns and forming gate keepers' cartel to regulate entries to platforms of the influential words –spoken and printed. A prominent daily has begun columns by all the Leftists who daily spit venom against one particular ideology. I asked editors whether my rejoinder to one Leftist leader's half-truths would be published and they agreed. The piece, a dozen times assured to go in print (emails galore-'next week, next Monday, I am in Paris, I am in Mussourie, will be done') was never used. So much for the objectivity of the secular hate spreaders.

No body has ever opposed the Sethusamudram project. Hindu organisations welcomed the idea but asked for a route which was originally proposed by the five important Indian committees and the previous British ones. Building Sethusamudram through Ram setu destruction is bad from security and environmental angles, and above all, invades the Hindu faith, which should not require any certificate from secular clerks.

First reaction of these seculars is to discard with contempt any proof or logic Hindus produce. But this is what NASA says about the bridge , 'Exploring space with a camera by NASA's [193] Gemini XI, this photograph from an altitude of 410 miles encompasses all of India, an area of 1,250 000 square miles,' George M Low, then the deputy director, Manned Spacecraft Center, NASA, notes. 'Bombay is on the west coast, directly left of the spacecraft's can-shaped antenna, New Delhi is just below the horizon near the upper left. Adam's Bridge between India and Ceylon, at the right, is clearly visible...' We can see the picture dramatically resembles the description given in Kalidasa's Raghuvamsham . Kalidasa wrote, (sarga 13): 'Rama, while returning from Sri Lanka in Pushpaka Vimaana told Sita: "Behold, Sita, My Setu of mountains dividing this frothy ocean is like the milky way dividing the sky into two parts".'

The Encyclopedia Britannica describes the bridge thus, 'Adam's Bridge also called Rama's Bridge, chain of shoals, between the islands of Mannar, near northwestern Sri Lanka, and Rameswaram, off the southeastern coast of India.'

Apart from such issues of heritage and belief, there are genuine concerns regarding security and the tsunamis' impact increasing in case the Ram Setu is destroyed. If the new channel is created through the present Rama's bridge, international ships would pass through it making a de facto international boundary between India and Sri Lanka, facilitating an increased alien presence, burdening our navy to a great extent. The state presented all the half-truths and unverified 'facts' to give an impression that while it is doing a great job to develop economy, these Hindus are monkeying around with the reality. It never answered why it preferred the present route requiring destruction of Ram Setu? There is a difference e between international boundary and the historic waters under UN conventions. The present waters status between India and Sri Lanka is the Historic Waters. The US Navy operational directive refusing to accept the sea between India and Sri Lanka as 'historic' was made on June 23, 2005. The Prime Minister's Office sent some queries in March 2005 to N K Raghupathy, chief of the Tuticorin Port Trust. He sent answers to the PMO's queries on June 30, 2005 and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh with United Progressive Alliance Chairperson Sonia Gandhi inaugurated the project on July 2, 2005. Why were the queries sent to the TPT and not to an agency which had scientific authority to look into the geological and maritime aspects of the project? Why did the prime minister and the UPA chairperson rush to inaugurate the project without, prima facie, having the time to look into the answers given by the TPT chief?

Local fishermen, Hindus, Muslims and Christians alike, oppose the present route and are demanding alternative channels, which are available. They say the present channel would destroy marine life and corals. This will kill the trade in shankas (shells) that has a turnover in excess of Rs 150 crore (Rs 1.5 billion) per annum. Invaluable thorium deposits would be affected, which are too important for our nuclear fuel requirements.

Professor Tad Murthy, the world-renowned tsunami expert, who advised the Government of India on the tsunami warning system and edited the Tsunami Journal for over 20 years, has also warned that the present Sethusamudram route may result in tsunami waves hitting Kerala more fiercely. In a reply to a query regarding the Sethusamudram's impact, he wrote, 'During the Indian Ocean tsunami of December 26, 2004, the southern part of Kerala was generally spared from a major tsunami, mainly because the tsunami waves from Sumatra region travelling south of the Sri Lankan island, partially diffracted northward and affected the central part of the Kerala coast. Since the tsunami is a long gravity wave (similar to tides and storm surges) during the diffraction process, the rather wide turn it has to take spared the south Kerala coast. On the other hand, deepening the Sethu Canal might provide a more direct route for the tsunami and this could impact south Kerala.'

Navy Captain H.Balakrishnan (Retd) has analysed the whole gamut of the SSCP and has produced a three-part paper on the subject ,which says in nutshell:

(A) Its not environmental friendly-: -Mariners call the Tamil Nadu coast from Rameswaram to Cuddalore as the 'cyclone coast'. Allied to the dangers posed by the cyclones to shipping, is the high siltation rates that occur in the Palk Straits. This would imply that maintenance dredging will have to be 'round the year' affair escalating the maintenance of the canal.

(B) No time saving- 'Time and Distance' calculation for a vessel's voyage from Kolkata/Chennai to Tuticorin circumnavigating Sri Lanka as also transiting through the SSCP is projected wrongly by govt. The SSCP is to have a dredged depth of 12 Metres. This permits vessels with a maximum draught of 10.7 M to pass through the channel. The underfoot clearance for the vessel is 1.3 M. This low underfoot clearance mandatorily entails the ship to precede at 'slow speeds of 6 to 8 Knots' through the Channel, on account of a phenomenon, termed as the 'Shallow Water Effect' by the mariners. On account of this fact, for a vessel on passage from Kolkata to Tuiticorin around Sri Lanka and through SSCP saves ONLY 1.75 hours by routing through the latter, for a speed combination 0f 12 and 6 knots!!

The project is backed by all those parties known for their atheism and anti-Hindutva stand. A new paper report said, ' Almost all political parties in Tamil Nadu, including the Marumalarchi Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (MDMK), the Dravida Munnetra Kazhagam (DMK), the Pattali Makkal Katchi (PMK), the Congress and the two Left parties, back the project. The National Environmental Engineering Research Institute (NEERI), Nagpur, submitted a techno-economic feasibility study and an environmental impact assessment report of the project in July 2004. It also suggested an alignment for the canal. The canal will originate from the Tuticorin harbour in the south and run through the Gulf of Mannar, the Palk Bay and the Palk Strait in a north and northeast direction before joining the Bay of Bengal. In other words, the canal will be dredged through the shallow waters of Adam's Bridge and the Palk Bay. Its total length will be 152 km but it needs no dredging for 78 km in the Gulf of Mannar. The canal will be 300 m wide and 6 km long in the Adam's Bridge area, and another 68 km long in the Palk Bay and the Palk Strait area. Its depth will be 12 m, to enable ships with a draught of 10.7 m to pass through.'

But the prominent Hindus, Christians opposed it. Justice K T Thomas, a retired and a distinguished judge of the Supreme Court told me that taking up the project by hurting Hindu sentiments is not advisable. Justice V R Krishna Aiyar, another great jurist too opposed it and sent a strong letter to the Prime Minister. A memorandum with 35 lakh signatures opposing the present alignment of Sethusamudram was submitted to the preacher President Abdul Kalam, hoping he belongs to Rameshwaram and hence would stand with Ram, but he kept a studied silence. Several public interest petitions were filed in Madras High Court and the Supreme Court, and the present cyclone over Ram's existence came out of an answer to one such petition filed by Dr Swamy.

S. Badrinarayanan, former director of Geological Survey of India and a member of the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) says the Adam's Bridge was not a natural formation.

"Coral reefs are formed only on hard surfaces. But during the study we found that the formation at Adam's Bridge is nothing but boulders of coral reefs. When we drilled for investigation, we found that there was loose sand two to three metres below the reefs. Hard rocks were found several metres below the sand.

''Such a natural formation is impossible. Unless somebody has transported them and dumped them there, those reefs could not have come there. Some boulders were so light that they could float on water. Apparently, whoever has done it, has identified light (but strong) boulders to make it easy for transportation. Since they are strong, they can withstand a lot of weight. It should be preserved as a national monument," he opined.

Fishermen are angry too. A newspaper quoted 'C. Munisamy of Mukundarayapuram, about 7 km from Rameswaram, points out that fishermen put out to sea at different times of the day during "seasons" for various fish varieties. Other fishermen fear that if they fish during the unapproved timings, they may be arrested on the charge of smuggling. N. Kumar and, S. Ramesh of Mukundarayapuram, and K. Thomas Vas of Thracepuram voiced similar sentiments separately. According to them, they normally sail at night, drop anchor, spread their nets and go to sleep, and return with the catch in the morning. "We cannot be on the lookout for ships (when we are sleeping). If a ship collides with our boat, our boat will straightway descend into the sea," says Kumar. There are about 1,300 country boats in and around Thracepuram alone, and each supports eight fishermen. "We drop anchor in the waters where the ships would ply. If the Sethusamudram project is implemented the ships will slice our nets. When this happens, the entire fishing community will be destroyed. Can we take to any other job?" ask R. Raj, president, and F. Jeyapaul, vice-president, of the Country Boats Fishermen's Panchayat at Thracepuram. A few hundred fishermen's families at Dhanushkodi are worried that they would not only lose their livelihood but also be dispossessed of their houses. They point to the NEERI report, which says that maintenance per year will result in a spoil of 0.1 million cubic metres. This dredged material, which will be mostly silt and clay, will not be disposed of in the sea. "Instead, it will be used to reclaim degraded areas on the Pamban island, Ramnad and Mandapam coastal stretches," it says. Part of the dredged material will be disposed of in the area that stretches between the Kothandaraswamy temple at Kothandam and Dhanushkodi, the Land's End. (Much of the Dhanushkodi island was washed away in a cyclone in 1964.)

R. Munisamy, 50, deftly removing fish from his net on the sandy beach, says: "This will not bring us any benefit. Dumping of dredge will result in the creation of mounds on the beach. How can we relocate?" Santiago Fernandes of Vercode Fishermen's Association asks, "How can we predict what will happen when you try to interfere with nature by dumping the spoil at Dhanushkodi (or Pamban)? We need a sea to fish. If you are going to dump the spoil in the sea, how can we fish? When you artificially interfere with a natural formation, the fish wealth will be ruined. We are on a precipice, poised between life and death."

All agree that the Sethusamudram idea has a very important geo-political dimension. 'It would give India a firm grip on one of the world's most strategic and busiest sea-lanes. This would eventually give India very remarkable leverage in its relations with China, Japan and the US. All the oil supplies to Southeast and East Asia that originate in the Middle East are shipped from ports in the Red Sea or the Persian Gulf. The sea-lanes from here converge in the Arabian Sea and then pass through the Gulf of Mannar and curve off the western, southern and southeastern coast of Sri Lanka. This sea-lane then turns northeast through the Bay of Bengal towards the Malacca Strait. Eighty per cent of Japan's oil supplies and sixty per cent of China's oil supplies shipped on this sea-lane. Almost half of the world's container traffic passes through the choke points of this sea-lane and its branches in the Indian Ocean. The Sethusamudram Project will create an unavoidable by-pass that would inevitably divert this sea traffic through India's own maritime waters,' says a strategic expert in Daily Mirror , 6 October 2004.

K.M Panikkar, the architect of India's naval doctrine, argued in his works more than fifty years ago that New Delhi should recognise the significance of the Indian Ocean for the development of its commercial activities, trade and security ( The Strategic Problems of the Indian Ocean' and 'India and Indian Ocean - published in 1944-1945).Regretting the "unfortunate tendency to overlook the Sea in the discussion of India's defence problems", Panikkar remarked: "India never lost her independence till she lost the command of the sea in the first decade of the 16th century". Advocating that the "Indian Ocean must remain truly Indian", Panikkar suggested the Albuquerque-style security of India by firmly holding distant places like Singapore, Mauritius, Aden and Socotra, the arid island off the coast of Yemen.

Through the present alignment we're not only making Indian Ocean a playfield for foreign interventions but also denying our heritage and the quintessential character of our nation. It's not done. Ram will emerge victorious again against the demons. We do not need to re-produce what Gandhi or Max Mueller said about Ram to prove how great he was. And remember humiliated Hindus may strike back, sooner or later.

Victorious Ram
By Tarun Vijay
The Times of India, 19 Sep 2007.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... id-2382407
rgsrini
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Post by rgsrini »

Theo
Other's have accused me of hatred for them, discounting that I'm actually married to one. Many of my best friends are T'Brahmins. Most agree that ganging up in dilli against the CM of your state is not wise policy.
I am the one who said that...
What is wrong in ganging up on your CM, if your CM is an insensitive, polygamist (hmm...hmm.. Is this the reason for opposing Ram, who stands for 'eka pathini') thug who offends millions of Hindus. This ******** has nothing but contempt for Tam brahms and was instrumental in brainwashing and winding up the entire TN stage against the voiceless brahmins throughout his political life and you want T Brahm to support him now.

Did anyone in TN raise a voice when he demonized, humiliated, physically attacked and chased most of the Tamil Brahms out of the state for good.

So you married a Tamil Brahmin. It makes no difference to me one way or the other.

I will have some respect for you if you didn't force her to convert to Christianity as a price for marrying you (like it seem to happen most of the time). Since you seem to be more knowledeable than most christians about the temples, I don't think that is the case.
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Post by Kanson »

"Coral reefs are formed only on hard surfaces. But during the study we found that the formation at Adam's Bridge is nothing but boulders of coral reefs. When we drilled for investigation, we found that there was loose sand two to three metres below the reefs. Hard rocks were found several metres below the sand.

''Such a natural formation is impossible. Unless somebody has transported them and dumped them there, those reefs could not have come there. Some boulders were so light that they could float on water. Apparently, whoever has done it, has identified light (but strong) boulders to make it easy for transportation. Since they are strong, they can withstand a lot of weight. It should be preserved as a national monument," he opined.
For such a historical value of mammoth propsition dont we have to treat it as Pyramid of India. Instead, what we are doing......really, shame on us.

BTW, I was even told that name Ramesses, the Great pharaoh of Egypt is derived from Lord Ram. Dont know the veracity of it, though.
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Post by bala »

here is the NASA picture
Image

one from the Air
Image
Sanjay M
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Post by Sanjay M »

Here's some aerial video footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwwoeZrm22I
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Post by Sanjay M »

enqyoob wrote:Just like the computer revolution was not driven by small business interests, but by the interests of IBM, Bell Labs, Motorola and Intel. Microsoft came late, but also OBVIOUSLY not a small business. Great forward thinking there!
Oh great, more great feats of imagination from Steve "enqyoob" Jobs.
He's hoping that LTTE infiltration across Palk Straits will spawn great innovations. Heh, yeah, innovations in IED technology. Better Things For Better Living. :roll: :roll:
Also, cheaper airfares were not driven by small business interests, or any interests of small people.

APEX Air fare Chennai-Mumbai-Atlanta in 1978 (one-way) was around $900 to $1000.

Today it is still around that, round-trip, though the dollar has fallen in value by some huge factor. Compare air traffic today and 1978. Oh, no! a drop in transportation costs will have NOOOOO effect on the mobility of people, or the growth of small businesses!
Uhhh, thank you, Mr Kurzweil, I'm sure that you and the LTTE will help us reach the "Convergence" and the "Singularity". This will be after you introduce Prabhakaran to Alvin and Heidi Toffler at the next Davos meeting, right?

Ever heard of rail or trucking??? You mean you'd like to see the interior Indian regions totally bypassed by seaborne shipping, so that they'll remain undeveloped Bantustans, bypassed by the autonomous coastal "nations", right? Good job.

So the solution for security is to eliminate the law-abiding traffic, remove and starve everyone except the terrorists from the area, so that one can conveniently nuke them as they sit there waiting to be nuked. Wonderful thinking again. I hope they implement this in Hyderabad and Bengalooru. Would work wonders for the traffic problem too. This is why I log on to BRF.
WHAT LAW-ABIDING TRAFFIC ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT? The non-existent shipping channel traffic through the non-existent shipping channel in the Palk Straits?

By your leaps of logic, we should all be spending more time mourning the loss of the non-existent casualties that would result without the non-existent heavy space lasers that are supposed to help us avert the non-existent asteroid collision. My God! The Humanity! Let's declare a Black Day in protest!

Just FYI, there are things called "radar", "guns" etc. that tend to have limited range, and need heavy, stable platforms to operate with accuracy, and stay in an area for a long time. If you have a frigate in the area, you don't have to run for cover every time there is a thunderstorm on the horizon, and your guns can reach clear across to the SL coastline from the canal, and your radar can pinpoint every dinghy or fast inflatable.
What crap. When Reagan sent the USN to fight the Iranian IRGC speeboats in the Straits of Hormuz, he wasn't chasing them down with large capital ships (like the Vincennes which destroyed a civilian airliner).
No, the types of units used were the Nightstalkers, which are elite helicopter special forces. That's how you destroy gunboats. Just how wide do you think the Palk Straits are, anyway???
As for the evil racist MK sending LTTE supplies from TN mixed with the legit traffic, what's stopping him now? Chennai-Jaffna is a lot more direct than Rameshwaram-Talaimannar and then up to Jaffna. Why not put the supplies and terrorists in ships going around the east coast of SL, or the south coast of SL, so that they can be conveniently off-loaded near Batticoloa or Galle, instead of having to be confined to these coastal boats?
Nope, they'll go faster from Chennai to Tuticorin

http://www.lankaweb.com/news/items07/070907-2.html

Right now, the LTTE know that if they run their small boats at high speed into the shallows around the Sethu, the IN cannot reach them, and the SLN, anyway, are mostly just targets. It takes too long to launch a helicopter and send it after them, and anyway that is a bad idea.

I do hope you do some thinking b4 posting so that I don't inadvertently embarass u in public (which course won't happen unless you think about the posts, so no worry there). Cheers.
The LTTE aren't afraid of the Indian navy because they have pull with the Indian political leadership. It's not like Jaffna is 800 miles away. They're all within reach of our mainland, it's just that we have no political will to eradicate them. You might as well be Pervez Musharraf claiming that Gwadar Port will help the War on Terror, for all the credibility it gives you.
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

enqyoob wrote:Theo/ Kanson:
The evidence is there all right. Point is this:
The legends have been totally proven by the NASA images. No one standing on the shore at either Dhanushkodi or Talaimannar would have any reason to imagine such a long causeway across the ocean.

This was why the NASA images were so stunning - they showed how close to connected and complete the causeway was, and how narrow, and yet how clean and direct. I have a very hard time imagining this to be an all-natural structure.

For the rest, the evidence is in the findings by those who dug there: the finding that the coral formations have sand above AND BELOW them. So why did those coral formations come and decide to stop there? I think the evidence for a human hand in engineering that, is overwhelming, faith or no faith.
NASA has always denied the provenance of that photograph. To most serious scientists the effect is the same as the Face on Mars effect. The series of Islands cause a faster flow of waters through the channels cleaning them and exposing the Calcium carbonate and the correct angle of the sun highlights it.

The mind is also a tricky thing. It wants to make patterns where they do not exist.

No other pictures show it. Including Thermal Emission Spectrometer images that should logically pick up any increased levels of minerals/rocks.

While on Google earth, take a look at some of the ring atolls around the Maldives and Lakswadeep that are NOT in high rez. A similar effect is observable. Once Googles High Rez of the areas come online I bet there will be a huge outcry of conspiracy. You heard it here first.

Also consider this. According to the images the bridge should be a good 3-4 kilometers wide. Anything like a regular human/monkey made bridge will not show up from space with such a wide aperture. Even allowing for eons of disturbance and spreading this is excessive, essentially as we have examples of cause ways laid deep into the sea. At Alexandria for example.

Also the Ramayan is very explicit in the way the bridge was built. It was roughly 100 Yojanas or 800 Miles! long. It was built from Trees, Rocks, Mountains and More trees. Evidence for none of these things exists despite repeated searches. Plant material underwater tends to survive an extremely long time. Even in the tropics. Why would the the record be incorrect about this.

Also note that most of the references are to a bridge not a causeway. And that this was straight as an arrow and maintained so with flying monkeys and arrows.

So how did the legend come about?

Let see if we can take a stab at this.

One thing that others have pointed out is the similarities between the Illiad By Homer and Ramayan by Valmiki. Both have long exiles, Kings whose wives are stolen/elope and other kings who get slain. Both are full of superhuman strength and the good and bad of the people involved. Both have examples of contrivance and cunning, the horse for the trojans and the Sethu for Ramayan. A case has been made that they might have common origins.

This is similar to the Bible & Koran which borrowed from the Torah which in turn borrowed from the code of Hamurappi and the Epic of Gilgamesh.

If the text was codified for Indian circumstance it must have some memory of pre historic times. Just as Noah's flood plausibly borrowed from the Epic of Gilgamesh which in turn could have described the flooding of the Black sea 7000 years ago.

During the last ice age sea levels were a good 150 feet lower. This spit of land almost certainly was above water. India and lanka have been linked and delinked many many times over the past 10000 years. Geologically we are considered one unit. Could the Sethu be a remembrance of this time perchance.

Also as far as the sand and limestone combination, this is exactly what you will find in such situations according to my old Geology professor. Basically what happens is that a set of coral reefs grow, then the water recedes and sea shore is build on the coral/limestone and then the sea returns to repeat the layers. Infact if you bore into the Florida soil you see this layer upon layer of stone and sand.

In the realm of oil formation this is the stack system they look for. The sand turns to porous rock holding the oil and the sandstone turns to impermeable cap rock holding the oil in.
Last edited by Theo_Fidel on 22 Sep 2007 03:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Sanjay M »

I don't think NASA will testify that the Ganges River or the Om Parbat are the result of intelligent design either (in contrast to Theo Fidel's and the Kansas City Schoolboard's opinions on human evolution) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBZQfAYfH7s

Just because something is natural doesn't mean it should be demolished.


Why not demolish the Om Parbat then? Hey, dynamite its face, and make a ski slope out of it. Why not hold the next Pokhran-III test there? Let's just destroy it all, because we can.

Image

Since it's merely just a product of nature, it must be expendable, right?
Wrong.
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Post by rgsrini »

spit of land almost certainly was above water. India and lanka have been linked and delinked many many times over the past 10000 years. Geologically we are considered one unit. Could the Sethu be a remembrance of this time perchance
May be there was some natural formation at that place. May be the monkeys and the humans made it flat and usable for the chariots, weapons and the massive army to pass through effectively. When an epic, 1000s of years old, takes pains to describe this in great detail why should I disbelieve it.

Especially when the science is conducted by unscrupulous ASI hogged by JNU types and peddled by dishonest politicians who have been undermining hinduism for decades. No deal...
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Post by Sanjay M »

It really doesn't matter whether it's artificially made or a natural formation. That's really besides the point. The fact is that it's revered by many today.

Who the hell knows exactly which tree is the Bodhi Tree that Buddha recieved enlightenment under? Is there a videotaped record? That's really irrelevant. There are a lot of people who revere the tree that is said to be the original Bodhi Tree, and let's leave it at that.

Anything that our beloved Prakash Karat says is fit for the toilet bowl anyway. The fact that Comrade Karat doesn't believe in this or that doesn't really hold much water at all. The miserable little hypocrite -- if that little crook were asked about the authenticity of Mohammad or Jesus, you know he'd sidestep the issue immediately.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

SanjayM hyperventilated:
Why not demolish the Om Parbat then? Hey, dynamite its face, and make a ski slope out of it. Why not hold the next Pokhran-III test there? Let's just destroy it all, because we can.

Since it's merely just a product of nature, it must be expendable, right?
Wrong.


WOW! You figured that out ALL BY YOURSELF??? :eek: :eek:
It's really great to be able to read your posts. So RELEVANT, too!
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Post by SaiK »

Kanson wrote:
"Coral reefs are formed only on hard surfaces. But during the study we found that the formation at Adam's Bridge is nothing but boulders of coral reefs. When we drilled for investigation, we found that there was loose sand two to three metres below the reefs. Hard rocks were found several metres below the sand.

''Such a natural formation is impossible. Unless somebody has transported them and dumped them there, those reefs could not have come there. Some boulders were so light that they could float on water. Apparently, whoever has done it, has identified light (but strong) boulders to make it easy for transportation. Since they are strong, they can withstand a lot of weight. It should be preserved as a national monument," he opined.
For such a historical value of mammoth propsition dont we have to treat it as Pyramid of India. Instead, what we are doing......really, shame on us.

BTW, I was even told that name Ramesses, the Great pharaoh of Egypt is derived from Lord Ram. Dont know the veracity of it, though.
OK that is enough proof... the lose sand for 2-3 meters means, the 15ft volcanic ash since toba eruption since 70K years ago, that means 6 to 9 ft
means an erosion of 50% of that toba ash.. so, we need that inputs in dr. patak's estimation of ramayana date match from a mathematical sea erosion model and that should include those mini ice age melts.

Thanks to all these discussions, I hope some research guy takes these cue points.
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Post by Tilak »

Keen on expediting Sethu project: Karunanidhi

[quote]CHENNAI: Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M. Karunanidhi on Thursday said he was not concerned about any one particular alignment for the Sethusamudram channel so long as the Sethusamudram project could be implemented.

“From the beginning, we have not said that the navigable route [connecting the Gulf of Mannar with the Palk Bay] should be shaped by destroying the Ramar bridge. Nor do we say so now. All we say is that the project should be completed speedily,â€
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Post by Sanjay M »

What's he hoping for then? A tunnel under the sea floor? Doublespeak by the great Master Race orator.
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Post by Tilak »

Theo

In the name of Jesus !!..You need to stop the "Sermons" and the snide "evanjihad" you are pulling.

Don't worry I was thinking to contribute to a church myself and I cant involve my many Hardworking Evangelical Baptist friends or my [not so Hardworking Pentecostal] wife to help me out..

But since your blessed soul loves charities.. send me 1000$ for a noble cause onlee .. "will ya!!" :oops:
Last edited by Tilak on 22 Sep 2007 06:02, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by Sanjay M »

Egypt is an Islamic country, and yet they respect the pyramids as part of their ancient pre-Islamic heritage.
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Post by enqyoobOLD »

(OK, let us ignore the noise.... :roll: )
Theo:
NASA has never denied the provenance of the photograph - which would be quite easy to do, because the image library from each STS mission is public domain. I have not personally delved into the particular library, but I do hope someone does - the image used to have the STS number on it. I sure would like to see the url to the original in the NASA archives, so that we can get the version with no Photoshop suspicions.

The images show up from two different NASA missions at least, and apparently there are Indian Remote Sensing images as well (there should be, the place is there every day...).

What NASA has refused to do is to get dragged into the interpretations, which is exactly what they should do.

Now for GOOGLE. Do the images change? Looks quite different today than the last time I checked, when it was a lot clearer there. But even the fuzzy picture seen today shows quite well that there is a very very shallow and pretty narrow ridge there.

The notion that legends have common origin is not implausible, but let's see where that takes us, along with what you say about tectonics, Ice Age levels etc.

That would lead us immediately to confirm the claim that the original legend was from the Ramayana, since "borrowed" into the Iliad etc. Because the Iliad etc. are far too recent to fit the tectonics/ sea level rise explanations.

So I am just not going to get into all that. There is plenty of tectonics/ volcanic activity in the Mediterranean as well, to independently account for any stories of buried cities, sunken cities, seas parting, causeways etc. No sense in getting into the mud-throwing on who copied from whom. Also, I would submit that there is no reason, if the story came from the Mediterranean, for the Indian legend to be centered on this place.

You are incorrect in calling the Sethu a "bridge". It was built by tossing rocks, trees, stones, anything into the ocean, not by any bridge construction (people knew the difference between a bridge and a causeway in India..)

What did happen in later years is that the extra-smart Gurus tried to build explanations of why it was possible to build a causeway across an ocean strait. So they came up with the part about the magic floating rocks, etc. that made it sound like a Bailey Bridge.

Think of it this way: if they had floating rocks, they wouldn't have waited to build the whole "bridge"- they would have pushed the damn things, with a few chariots, whatever, and established a bridge-head, then brought the rest along, like Patton crossing the Rhine. Instead, they build a "Sethu" - a bund, (that's an Indian word too..), which is a causeway. So forget about the "floating bridge" part - that was someone trying to be so scientific.

In fact the Ramayana says that Nalan was asked to do a survey to find out WHERE they could cross, and he found the place where it was most shallow. For people equipped with floating rocks, this would have been quite superfluous. Remember - they weren't exactly on an engineering project, with IAS aphsars etc. - they were trying to get across to save someone. There was total urgency.

So it was most definitely a causeway.

Now I don't argue that the sea level was a bit lower, or the land higher, in those days. The Mahabalipuram temples which are now under several feet of water, prove that either the sea rose, or the land sank, or both, on that coast. Not surprising, given the tectonic activity and the regular cyclones/monsoons. So the causeway was probably quite feasible because it was maybe disconnected in only a few places.

In other words, much of what was put in there, may have been washed away. But probably not all of it. Conversely, ALL of the material there need not be dumped from somewhere else, most of it may be "natural", but the rest was dumped there.

There is noooo legend of there having been a land connection between India and SL. In fact there is a substantial difference between the cultures across the 22km of water, and northwestern SL is most certainly not an extension of TN. The powerful kings of TN did not rule SL, as far as I know SL history. On the contrary, their legends are that civilization started there with the landing of Prince Vijaya and his goon gang, who had been kicked out of their NORTH INDIAN kingdom and put on a ship. Of course there was the usual local princess etc., who were the original natives - the "Veddas" IIRC.

I assumed without thinking a great deal, that the NORTH INDIAN kingdom was someplace in Orissa, because the Sinhala script is quite similar to Oriya.

Also, if the Sethu was entirely engineered, and totally permanent, why is it that there is no legend of a continued relationship across the Sethu with SL? It appears that after the Ramayana battle, the Sethu did not stay much. Was it dismantled? Did it wash away? Most probably the land connection did not exist intact for much longer.

So we come back to the reality that for the past several thousands of years, there has NOT been a land link between India and SL. Only some poor fishermen knew about the chain of islands.

So I ask again: Why would someone standing on the beach at Dhanushkodi or Talaimannar come up with that legend? It was not exactly a center of international commerce or global cultural exchange, hey? Except for the Holiness, the place is awful. NOT a place for poets or kings to go on vacation.

So, Theo, don't go down that path. There is more than enough for people to believe that the legend is very real. But that does not mean that Sri Rama ever intended to leave an awful ecological monstrosity sitting out there for millions of years, or to ban the people there from doing what they needed to do to advance the security of India and the economy of the coastal people. In fact, all the evidence points to the Sethu having been a structure built to last just long enough to let the army go across, and return. And then most of the "built" part of it must have got washed this way and that. It may be lying around there, still.

As for finding trees, why? Most of the stuff that could float may have got dislodged, or maybe the coral ate it.
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Post by Tilak »

Nevermind the noise, but going by Karunanidhi's statement the Tsunami threat has vanished for now, it appears.. :rotfl:
Theo_Fidel

Post by Theo_Fidel »

enqyoob wrote:NASA has never denied the provenance of the photograph - which would be quite easy to do, because the image library from each STS mission is public domain.
NASA has said that the image may be theirs. They have no way of confirming it as it was not obtained with provenance. No information was collected on image details including filters frequency etc. No way of checking the authenticity and tamper prevention also exists. In the absence of this further research is impossible, or there is no provenance.
enqyoob wrote:What NASA has refused to do is to get dragged into the interpretations, which is exactly what they should do.
This in itself should tell you some thing. Can you imagine NASA turning down the chance for one of the great discoveries of all time. They have said that they have numerous images, much better than that one take over many years and they still can not come to any conclusions. They have said that from their examination it looks like a chain of atolls.
enqyoob wrote:Now for GOOGLE. Do the images change? Looks quite different today than the last time I checked, when it was a lot clearer there. But even the fuzzy picture seen today shows quite well that there is a very very shallow and pretty narrow ridge there.
Google does have a measuring tool. It comes to 3-4 km wide.

enqyoob wrote:That would lead us immediately to confirm the claim that the original legend was from the Ramayana, since "borrowed" into the Iliad etc. Because the Iliad etc. are far too recent to fit the tectonics/ sea level rise explanations.
Or more likely have a common origin. Remember ancient Meluha (Indus) traded extensively with the Persian gulf and beyond. It is not unlikely that they had contacts into the Mediterranean.
enqyoob wrote:You are incorrect in calling the Sethu a "bridge". It was built by tossing rocks, trees, stones, anything into the ocean, not by any bridge construction (people knew the difference between a bridge and a causeway in India..)
I'm looking at Rajagopalachari's guide to the Ramayana. It says 'Setum'. First translation 'Bridge'. Why would they use that word if they have a perfectly good word for causeway in 'badvan'.
enqyoob wrote:Think of it this way: if they had floating rocks, they wouldn't have waited to build the whole "bridge"- they would have pushed the damn things, with a few chariots, whatever, and established a bridge-head, then brought the rest along, like Patton crossing the Rhine. Instead, they build a "Sethu" - a bund, (that's an Indian word too..), which is a causeway. So forget about the "floating bridge" part - that was someone trying to be so scientific.
This has always baffled me. It is not like shipping was unknown to the Ramayan. Why build a cause way to travel a paltry 30 km's. Though it is rough, it relatively tranquil by ocean standards. The Ramayan always implies that Ram crossed an ocean, there is no hint that he crossed an estuary. The ocean god even says shallowness is not possible but I will make the waters support just your army.

In some aspects, by allowing Ram to cross the shallow strait the enormity of the telling and version are reduced.
enqyoob wrote:In fact the Ramayana says that Nalan was asked to do a survey to find out WHERE they could cross, and he found the place where it was most shallow.
I see a reference to 'Nalonam' but the annotation calls that out as monkey called nala. He was a skilled bridge builder and his father was a skilled bridge builder. He built the bridge. Nothing about him scoping out the project or survey sites.
enqyoob wrote:In other words, much of what was put in there, may have been washed away. But probably not all of it. Conversely, ALL of the material there need not be dumped from somewhere else, most of it may be "natural", but the rest was dumped there.
At the thinnest this 'cause way needed to be 30 meters wide at top, With minimum 30 meters depth. Allowing for some slump it needed to be about 100 meter wide @ the bottom. So a cross section of 2000 m2 x 30,000 meters long, after allowing for existing islands = 60 million cubic meters With wet dirt at about 6 tonnes per m3, this is 360 million tonnes of material. This amount of material does not just disappear away, even if it is below the water, where it is actually protected from rain.
enqyoob wrote:There is noooo legend of there having been a land connection between India and SL. In fact there is a substantial difference between the cultures across the 22km of water, and northwestern SL is most certainly not an extension of TN. The powerful kings of TN did not rule SL, as far as I know SL history.
http://www.rediff.com/news/2007/jul/04spec.htm
Asiatic Society, 1799, refers to the bridge that is broken at three places. It also says "people call it a bridge; or otherwise it appears to have wood growing on it, and to be inhabited."

The Sethupatis of Ramanathapuram are called so because they were expected to protect the Sethu."

He further adds two other evidences, "The Madras Presidency Administration Report 1903 refers to the bridge as a glossary entry: 'Adam's Bridge is called the bridge of Rama. It really joined Ceylon to India until 1480, when a breach was made through rocks during a storm. A subsequent storm enlarged this and foot traffic then ceased.'

"The next is a book written by Alexander Hamilton in 1744, A New Account of the East Indies which describes his visit to 'Zeloan' by walking on the bridge."

"In the Aganaanooru Sangam literature text also, there is a reference to Sethu and there are hundreds of references to Rama," Kalyanaraman added.

All these were put together by Schwartzberg and the University of Chicago as Schwartzberg Atlas that have around 100 maps showing Sethu (in bracket, it is written Adam's Bridge) clearly and the maps are dated back to the seventh and the twelfth centuries.

In 1788, Joseph Parks, a Botanical explorer from Australia marks the structure as Rama's Bridge. But it is renamed as Adam's Bridge in the 1804 Survey of India map.

Kalyanaraman also speaks about thousands of copper, gold and silver coins with the word Sethu on them that have been recovered in Jaffna. They were issued circa the twelfth to fifteenth century.

Paranthaka Chola of the tenth century copper plates and the copper plates indicate that Aparajitavarman went to Sethutirtha.

"Krishnadevaraya's epigraph mentions that his territory extended from Sethu to Vijayanagaram."
Please check the link above. There is a long tradition of the two region being connected thru a much more substantial sandy causeway. Many temples on both sides record it.

I did not know if the 1480 cyclone destroying the causeway till now. The 1964 one has almost completely severed Rameshwaram from Dhanushkodi and no doubt the next cyclone will completely eliminate Dhanushkodi.

The flora and fauna of the Sri Lankan and Indian lands share much in common. The Wild Elephants of Agasthya malai are considered genetically identical to Lankan elephants. Many other species are similarly close.

There is no doubt that the causeway was much more substantial at one time.

Also Tamil kings have repeatedly ruled large sections of Lanka. Why do you think the LTTE problem exists. People have gone back and forth across the straits for many many centuries. I'm pretty sure you have talked about all this before so I'm baffled why you would say this after having visited the area many times.

The present isolation is a very new occurance.
enqyoob wrote:So I ask again: Why would someone standing on the beach at Dhanushkodi or Talaimannar come up with that legend? It was not exactly a center of international commerce or global cultural exchange, hey? Except for the Holiness, the place is awful. NOT a place for poets or kings to go on vacation.

As for finding trees, why? Most of the stuff that could float may have got dislodged, or maybe the coral ate it.
Here we come to the scientific temperament.

I'm sure you are all aware of Occam's Razor made popular by Jodie Foster in Contact.

What is easier to believe,

that a combination of wind, ocean and tide created a sandy discontinuous spit of land in an area that has a long history of submergence and emergence, similar to sandy spits of land observable else where on earth.

or An ancient king from the North, brought a huge army to the south, and set them to constructing a massive bridge, far from his supply lines, built it in a matter of days or at least less than 10 years, used trees and rocks of which there is no sign now, left no sign of where the 400 million tonnes or so of material came from, transported the material presumably from the mainland over a 3 km ocean inlet and thence to the end of the land, managed to put it all together without the ocean washing everything away (no trivial task), did all this while the simple artifice of a couple of hundred fishing boats carrying 20-30 men at a time could have taken a 100,000 of them all across in a matter of weeks, then proceeded to return the same way, and allowed all this material effort to melt away.

I doubt we could do it today. with a billion people behind us, the currents are too strong, 20 knots is not unknown in narrow areas, and the sand too unstable.

P.S. I'm sure I'll have a bunch of comments about how I don't know anything about faith and I don't know what gods are capable of. To you I say that India possessed a ton of scientific info in prehistory and yet we did nothing with it, did not share it or use it to the betterment of our people. The reason is that we preferred to descend into ritual and blind acceptance rather than self inquiry and curiosity.
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