Bharat Rakshak

Acharya wrote:Yes they are real coins

boss, what is that "tic tac toe" symbol on the coin? ... I see that Ashoka's lions are still there on the flip-side ...

A synopsis-I acknowledged that Hindus may admire aspects of Christianity, somewhat pointedly. Evangelics will never and can never see any good in any people who are not of the Book. This, more than rehashes of Nietzsche's God is dead, is informative. Religion tells us nothing about God but it reveals much about men.

Alok_N wrote:

Acharya wrote:Yes they are real coins

boss, what is that "tic tac toe" symbol on the coin? ... I see that Ashoka's lions are still there on the flip-side ...

looks a bit like the German Iron Cross, actually looks a bit like the top of a Christian cross, the bottom side seems a bit too long for it to have all four arms being equal length.

Alok_N wrote:

Calvin wrote:is it because there is no god, and mankind "created" god?

I would say yes, but then TSJ would jump up and down and say "ahaa you are an athiest" ... that is not so ... an agnostic belief admits the "unknown unknown" ...

so, I would qualify that and say that "all gods known to manking today are inventions of mankind" ...

I know you think "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" but it is just the way I work.

The other terror that scares us from self-trust is our consistency; a reverence for our past act or word, because the eyes of others have no other data for computing our orbit than our past acts, and we are loath to disappoint them.
...

A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall. Speak what you think now in hard words, and to-morrow speak what to-morrow thinks in hard words again, though it contradict every thing you said to-day. — 'Ah, so you shall be sure to be misunderstood.' — Is it so bad, then, to be misunderstood? Pythagoras was misunderstood, and Socrates, and Jesus, and Luther, and Copernicus, and Galileo, and Newton, and every pure and wise spirit that ever took flesh. To be great is to be misunderstood.

Ralph Waldo Emerson on "Self Reliance"

Thanks Acharya.

If true then that Rs 2 coin is really weird. Normally there is some text explaining what is being shown. But there is nothing. India's national symbol apperas puny compared to this new symbol. The new shape looks like a cross, and its bottom and right arms appear longer than normal, especially the bottom one, giving a hint of a christian cross. The asymmetric positioning and four dots tend to diminish its christian-cross like appearance, but that makes it even more weird.

Some christian crosses also have 4 dots kind of structure. In a celtic cross, a circle is drawn around the cross in such a way as to leave 4 blank circular dot shaped regions.

It could be a result of some spineless congressman showing off "secularism" hoping that it would please Sonia Mai, and he did a clever job, as there is enough deniability in the design to perhaps argue one's way out. Remember that the Indian swastika has 4 dots too.

But sometimes one can be too clever!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_cross

celtic cross

Calvin wrote:is it because there is no god, and mankind "created" god?

Perhaps you might enjoy the chapter "Religions as memeplexes" in Susan Blackmores book - The Meme Machine

Was'nt it the Isa Upanisad that said something to the effect of:

One who thinks that he knows, knows not.
He is known by him who does not think that he knows anything in particular.

TSJones wrote:
I know you think "consistency is the hobgoblin of small minds" but it is just the way I work.

the opening phrase of your sentence justifies your misconception about the quoted part ...

drop it TSJ, stick to needling unsuspecting folks ... my last post on this.

Pulikeshi wrote: Was'nt it the Isa Upanisad that said something to the effect of:

One who thinks that he knows, knows not.
He is known by him who does not think that he knows anything in particular.

Kena-upanishad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kena_Upanishad

Rakesh wrote:

sanjaykumar wrote:For most thinking people "because my book says so" is not very meaningful.

For Christians, that is the only meaningful thing to say. Does that mean Christians are not thinking people? Biblical support of that is found in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So the next question that is asked is what is the word of God and that is the Holy Bible and thus the words of the Bible are inherently true. This is a matter of FAITH.

Which Bible? There are so many versions! What if we got the wrong translation? I may not understand Aramaic; does that mean the difference between Heaven (with my 72!) and Hell?

Can a top down hierarchical system driven by a book deal with the complexities of the world to present itself in the future? Perhaps, FAITH can help deal with the problems of yesterdays world – a la should I love my neighbor? yes or no? Should I love my neighbour's wife - commit adultery? yes or no? But what does the Bible say about the nature of GOD? What does the Bible tell us about Chimeras and stem cells? Does a 1900+ year old text really have the power to divine what will be?

A top-down hierarchical system is good only to solve simple problems – so perhaps the books are for shall we say simple people with simple problems? Perhaps, like someone thought up a 10 commandments for people with too less time to think for themselves. Good viral marketing no? Perhaps the reason for disenchantment in the west as this marketing effort failed to sustain its consumer base and thus the EvanJihadists have to move to fresh feeding grounds to find fresh meat - Er, Souls!

Seems to me that this business of harvesting souls is a volume business - the churn rate is rather high and switching costs are low, there are no long term contracts. Thus, the need to keep at it and go after more and more - eventually the consumer is no longer satisfised with what is on offer and will move away to a competitors offering. In the meanwhile, the mother Church now has multiple brands or denominations and does no longer have one coherent message - ah! I a need to write a book on this one! Perhaps the Vatican will hire me

Further, how does the Bible explain the cosmos (the spontaneous order found in the Universe by the Greeks, and of Rta – or righteous order found in the universe by the Hindus)? What is the nature of GOD and his/her relationship to this universe? How can an invisible GOD be both omnipotent and omniscient?

How could someone have died for our sins when we were not even born? Is my sinning pre-ordained, if so do I have free-will?

Let thinking people think, the rest of y'all can have FAITH (in us) to come up with the right marketing message

TSJones wrote: So guys, go ahead with yer little discussion here, but I want you to know it was the evangelicals who were at the forefront of the fight against slavery in Britain and in the US. So, no, they're not going to give up on the Dalits or the tribals anytime soon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Wilberforce

Just a quick side note. I'm sure many American's want to bring Short Dark Rice Eaters some of the many benefits they have historically brought black people.

http://hnn.us/articles/9142.html

“slavery produced in the South a genuine affection between the races that we believe we can say has never existed in any nation before the War [the Civil War] or since.â€

Kena-upanishad

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kena_Upanishad

Getting rusty in my old age - need to revisit the Upanishads.
Haven't had the need for book guidance in a long time
Thanks for the correction.

Pulikeshi wrote:Which Bible? There are so many versions! What if we got the wrong translation? I may not understand Aramaic; does that mean the difference between Heaven (with my 72!) and Hell?

There are wrong translations of the Bible and in my opinion the King James Version is the only right one. But since you asked about the many different versions, here is a sample of just a few of the countless Bibles versions out there which states John 1:1

New International Version "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

New American Standard Bible "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Amplified Bible "IN THE beginning [before all time] was the Word (Christ), and the Word was with God, and the Word was God Himself."

New Living Translation "In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God."

English Standard Version "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

The message is more or less the same in each of the versions. So if you are looking for the confirmation of John 1:1, that verse is clearly stated in any Bible version you pick. You can pick a French, German, Hindi, Urdu, Malayalam Bible and the message will still be the same. But I still hold firm to the view point, that in the ENGLISH language....the King James Version (aka the Authorised Version) is the best Bible today.

Pulikeshi wrote:Can a top down hierarchical system driven by a book deal with the complexities of the world to present itself in the future?

As Christians, it is our faith that enables us to believe that the God that Moses, Abraham, Noah & Joshua worshipped is still the same God that we worship today. He has not changed and will not change. His decrees are eternal and everything that occured in the past, that occurs right now and that will occur in the future is because he ordained it. As the Creator of the universe, He is intimately involved in every minute detail. Thus we believe (again this is a matter of faith and faith cannot be indoctrinated in you as the Evangelists in India do) that the Holy Bible does deal with the complexities of the world.

Pulikeshi wrote:But what does the Bible say about the nature of GOD?

The Bible is chock full of verses about the nature of God. I suggest you read the Bible to find that out for it is futile to start listing the verses here.

Pulikeshi wrote:What does the Bible tell us about Chimeras and stem cells?

The Bible also does not talk about lungs, heart, kidneys, etc but just because it does not....that does not mean that we human beings do not have those organs. Again this is a matter of faith that Christians believe that God is the author of creation. However as I said above, faith cannot be force fed to anyone. That practice however does go on and that is wrong.

Pulikeshi wrote:Does a 1900+ year old text really have the power to divine what will be?

This is a matter of faith which I have explained above.

Pulikeshi wrote:A top-down hierarchical system is good only to solve simple problems – so perhaps the books are for shall we say simple people with simple problems?

If that is what you believe, then that is good

Pulikeshi wrote:Perhaps, like someone thought up a 10 commandments for people with too less time to think for themselves. Good viral marketing no?

The Ten Commandments were given to the people of Israel as a guide on how they ought to live under the dominion of God. The Ten Commandments were to show the Jewish people what they were not doing.

Pulikeshi wrote:Perhaps the reason for disenchantment in the west as this marketing effort failed to sustain its consumer base and thus the EvanJihadists have to move to fresh feeding grounds to find fresh meat - Er, Souls!

Yes and No. Yes because the west has lost virtually all moral value and are not in a position to pass moral judgements on others. So when the west calls Hindus, worshippers of Satan...it is like the pot calling the kettle black as Western society is filled with its own evils. No because the Bible does state that Christians are required to spread the Gospel to all corners of the world. It is the method by which the Gospel is spread in India (and other parts) which is wrong.

Pulikeshi wrote:Seems to me that this business of harvesting souls is a volume business - the churn rate is rather high and switching costs are low, there are no long term contracts. Thus, the need to keep at it and go after more and more - eventually the consumer is no longer satisfised with what is on offer and will move away to a competitors offering.

This was never meant to be a volume business, as I believe (once again a matter of faith) that Mathew 22:14 will turn out to be true. "For many are called, but few are chosen." The Evangelists don't see this, or perhaps they do...but choose to ignore it. However I do agree with the second part of your message.

Pulikeshi wrote:In the meanwhile, the mother Church now has multiple brands or denominations and does no longer have one coherent message.

Rest assured (again this is a matter of faith - and I know that word coming from me sounds repititve, but faith is the foundation of what a Christian stands on) these verses in the Bible will also hold true.

Mathew 7:22-23 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

There is only one Bible, one Jesus Christ and one Gospel. The rest is all fluff. Again what I also believe and I have stated so far is also a matter of faith. Not every Christian is going to agree with what I have said so far. But you are correct...there is no coherent, single message. But there is no Mother Church. That concept is really not Biblical. There is only Church.

Pulikeshi wrote:Further, how does the Bible explain the cosmos (the spontaneous order found in the Universe by the Greeks, and of Rta – or righteous order found in the universe by the Hindus)? What is the nature of GOD and his/her relationship to this universe?

The creation story in Genesis 1 states that God created the heavens and the earth. The heavens is the cosmos. It does not explain it in great detail, but through further understanding of the Bible one does get that picture.

Pulikeshi wrote:How can an invisible GOD be both omnipotent and omniscient?

To answer that question is similar to asking where did God come from? There are mysteries about God, which we may never know. Secondly, I really don't lose sleep at night trying to figure out how God can be omnipotent and omniscient. I just believe it is.

Pulikeshi wrote:How could someone have died for our sins when we were not even born? Is my sinning pre-ordained, if so do I have free-will?

The clothes you are wearing right now, did God choose them for you or did you choose them on your own? If you had a choice in what you ate today, did God come down from heaven and tell what you should eat and what you ought to skip? You do indeed have free will, however you only operate within the will of God. That is the Christian belief.

Pulikeshi wrote:Let thinking people think, the rest of y'all can have FAITH (in us) to come up with the right marketing message

If man left faith to his fellow man, then we are all doomed. Thank goodness for God. Thanks, but I will pass at having faith in the way you think.

Shwetank wrote:I've decided to start numbering my questions cause so many came up and hopefully help in referencing on any discussion that might take place on them.

Really thought provoking questions Shweta...however the forum will not do justice. Please email me at koshyr AT hotmail DOT com

Regarding the weird Rs 2 coin:

Ebay-India is selling them for Rs 40. Why would a Rs 2 coin issued in 2006 sell for Rs 40 within India? Have they already become controversial and hence collectors items?

Anyway the links:
rs 2 coin on ebay
Rs 2 coin on ebay

Rakesh,

Thanks for taking the time to respond to my points with civility.
However, please recognize that the only reason you and I have the freedom to argue our ideas out in civility is the right granted by a democratic secular polity that permits me to stand outside the rigid realm of your FAITH & BELIEF and question your assumptions. If that very FAITH you have ran the realm politically, we'd be in happy Saudi Arabia or some such system, where I would have to fear my life and limb to question FAITH.

Thus in monotheism, you will find that FAITH & BELIEF are fig leaves that protect the Emperor. Those of us monists, have no redemption from the monotheistic GOD irrespective of his kindness and compassion. It has been so ordained in a book, and the marketing message has established that Meme as reality, while reality is quite the contrary. Followers of Dharmic religions can practice polytheistic rituals, yet see monistic philosophy as the essence of the nature of the universe. If there are those within the Dharmic religions that oppose this, we may pick an argument, but there is no need to harvest their souls or kill them for their beliefs. Argumentativeness is inborn and encouraged as no model is as yet perfect to define that which is infinite. FAITH & BELIEF has lead the Church and now the Mosque to prevent progress, scientific scrutiny, and innovation. If not for free thinkers, we would still believe the earth flat (trust me there are still some who think this!).

Traditionally, in the west monotheism has been challeged only by atheist. The latter themselve hold a rather untenable position anyway, and thus ironically the debate gets down to FAITH & BELIEF. The new challenge monotheism is going to face, are folks like me, who do no have any issue per se with FAITH & BELIEF, except I see that as a limited time frame solution, during periods of stability. Not in the geologic timeframe nature operates in. Over the long run evolution prevails, the Dharmic religion belongs to the evolutionary stream. Thus, allowing it to see Jesus or Allah as one more entity, that attempts to describe the monistic reality. To this extent it has taken a passive approach of acceptance of one more, but no more. Dharmic religions are not fighting a battle for survial, they are challenging your very basis for assuming FAITH & BELIEF. Whose book? Which version? What GOD? Even within the Judeo-Christian-Islamic triad, there is no unity - while it is the same GOD. Within them there is even more confusion. How long will these three blood let in the name of GOD?
All this would be fine if you were monistic, allowing for polythestic expression. But, it is not the case. Each one believes itself to be in exclusion of the others.

If you had a choice in what you ate today, did God come down from heaven and tell what you should eat and what you ought to skip?

See “The Meme Machineâ€

Shwetank wrote:

Alok_N wrote: boss, what is that "tic tac toe" symbol on the coin? ... I see that Ashoka's lions are still there on the flip-side ...

looks a bit like the German Iron Cross, actually looks a bit like the top of a Christian cross, the bottom side seems a bit too long for it to have all four arms being equal length.

satyam eva jayate सतà¥

Kumar wrote:Regarding the weird Rs 2 coin:

Ebay-India is selling them for Rs 40. Why would a Rs 2 coin issued in 2006 sell for Rs 40 within India? Have they already become controversial and hence collectors items?

Anyway the links:
rs 2 coin on ebay
Rs 2 coin on ebay

It is removed from EBAY

X-posting S. Valkan from the Xenophobia thread. I think these words are even more appropriate on this thread.

Why would you suggest that Hinduism is fighting Christian beliefs in the divinity of Jesus or his resurrection ?

Hinduism has no fights with others on matters of their personal belief.

The problem that Hinduism needs to guard against if possible, and fight against if necessary, is the disastrous modus operandi of Christian/Muslim evangelists to seek new converts.

The fight is against a business model and disruptive 'hostile takeover' bids.

The Western incubator encourages that model. If not evangelists, it will be some clone of pyramid schemes like the Amway scam-artists.

Whether it is the lure of Houris and eternal life in Paradise, of the lure of filthy lucre, the challenge for Hinduism is pyramid scheme business models exploiting peoples' desires while dressed in the garb of religion.

Rakesh wrote: There is only one Bible, one Jesus Christ and one Gospel. The rest is all fluff.

I hope you are not trying to be factual about this assertion.

Over the centuries, there had been various recensions of the Torah, which was expropriated to make the "Old" Testament of the KJV Bible. Even in that Old Testament, one can clearly see that the "facts" mentioned in the Genesis I and Genesis II do not accurately match each other.

Similarly, there were indeed numerous Gospels of the "New" Testament floating around, before the Romans called in the Ecumenical councils and took only a few of them as representative texts.

Despite the best of efforts, one sees that even those Gospels don't agree with each other on the cornerstone of Christian belief,- the "resurrection of Christ.

To answer that question is similar to asking where did God come from? There are mysteries about God, which we may never know. Secondly, I really don't lose sleep at night trying to figure out how God can be omnipotent and omniscient. I just believe it is.

The greatest disarming technique is to say "I just believe".

However, when it comes to "pagan" religions and their numerous deities, the principle of Abrahamic logic is applied in an attempt to show that such "belief" is illogical.

This is the most ironic part about Judeo-Christian belief system.

The clothes you are wearing right now, did God choose them for you or did you choose them on your own? If you had a choice in what you ate today, did God come down from heaven and tell what you should eat and what you ought to skip? You do indeed have free will, however you only operate within the will of God. That is the Christian belief.

The big question is, whether this "belief" is compatible with logic.

Even the choice in what I eat or wear is clearly conditioned by a host of nature and nurture factors and what I have at my disposal at this point, which - following a causal chain - can be attributed by First Principles to the "original" agent - "God" if you prefer the term.

In other words, "free will" is a chimera.

At the very least, your "will" is conditioned by your genes. Surely I didn't create my own genetic makeup ?

John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

that Word is "Om" the creative principle of manifest and unmanifested.

World is billions of years old and Bible is mearly few thousand years old. The part of Bible Christians swear by is addmitingly just 1800 years old, so unless it is time twisting wizardry to not aceept plain self evident Truth.

What do you think saving is all about? Is it really about paap and moksha?

Arun_S wrote:that Word is "Om" the creative principle of manifest and unmanifested.

There are a whole lot more that Christians can't quite accept.

In Romans 11:36, "God" is described as "For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen."

Sounds awfully similar to the concept of Hindu Trinity : the origin/source/fountainhead of everything by Ishvara as Brahma, preservation by Ishvara as Vishnu and dissolution unto Ishvara as Shiva

Ishavasyam Idam Sarvam Yat Kinchat Jagatyam Jagat

Sarvam Khalu Idam Brahman

Yo mam Pashyati Sarvatra Sarvam Ca Mayi Pashyati

and so on...


Now, when Christ says "I and the Father are One", it is quite feasible that he was simply referring to his realization of "Aham Brahmasmi".

For "one cannot come to the Father, except through ME", he was referring to the path of self-realization,- one has to direct their focus on the Self/Atman to attain "God".

But, then, that's the crucial divergence between letter(literalism) and spirit(spirituality).

So the original might be the one to read in order to understand and comprehend. Maybe the various translations were to reflect the world view and of the translators and their patrons so that the message got distorted.

ramana wrote:What do you think saving is all about? Is it really about paap and moksha?

Onlee ignorant seek Moksha.

In terms of religious beliefs, I couldn't care less what people do with their minds and brains and lives.

However evangelicals of both the Christian and Islamic types who want to convert others rely on a single premise - called religious racism. The core belief is their religions belief is superior to other people's belief, and they will refuse to accept you unless you have been brought into their fold.

When such an attitude exists, it is the superiority complex of these evanjehadis that cause the most friction; and attitude that goes against the very basic principles of human decency and respect for others.

Over the centuries, there had been various recensions of the Torah, which was expropriated to make the "Old" Testament of the KJV Bible. Even in that Old Testament, one can clearly see that the "facts" mentioned in the Genesis I and Genesis II do not accurately match each other.

But we do have the Dead Sea Scrolls and lo and behold, "Gosh, they're pretty darn accurate!". Not bad for a bunch of old time scholars, eh?

Similarly, there were indeed numerous Gospels of the "New" Testament floating around, before the Romans called in the Ecumenical councils and took only a few of them as representative texts.

Yeah, a lot of them were fairy tales about the baby Jesus performing super human acts of bravery. These were like Hollywood scripts today.

The Gospels were chosen from those stories that clicked with personal knowledge handed down over the intervening years.

Despite the best of efforts, one sees that even those Gospels don't agree with each other on the cornerstone of Christian belief,- the "resurrection of Christ.

Jesus' body was taken down from the cross by Joseph of Arimathea, and placed in a tomb carved into rock. Again, Jesus' mother and one or two other women were the only ones present. These same devoted women came to his tomb the following Sunday morning to anoint his body with spices. When they arrived, they were astonished to find the stone covering the entrance to the tomb had been rolled away, and the tomb was empty.

The four Gospels vary somewhat in their reports as to what happened next, but all generally agree that the women told the other disciples but their story was not believed. But the risen Jesus later appeared to the disciples, where he passed through a locked door yet demonstrated he was not a ghost by eating and allowing himself to be touched. He made several other appearances among various groups before ascending into heaven.

The resurrection of Jesus is central to the early church. Historically, it may be impossible to determined what happened or what the disciples actually experienced, but one thing seems clear - they sincerely believed, from an early date, that Jesus had been raised from the dead.

All four Gospels include an account of the resurrection. In Acts, the central message preached by the apostles is the resurrection of Christ. In his first letter to the Corinthians, which dates to as early as 55 AD, Paul writes that the resurrection is of "first importance" and that "if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith."

The belief that Jesus' resurrection makes it possible for people to have peace with God in this life and meet a favorable end in the next was a major source of the incredible courage shown by the early Christian martyrs.

The greatest disarming technique is to say "I just believe".

However, when it comes to "pagan" religions and their numerous deities, the principle of Abrahamic logic is applied in an attempt to show that such "belief" is illogical.

This is the most ironic part about Judeo-Christian belief system.

Well, if you want to see God in rocks and trees and animals or even your ancestors, that is certainly your choice but I will beleive in One who gives us rules that insists we follow a moral imperative in our relationship to others.


The big question is, whether this "belief" is compatible with logic.

Even the choice in what I eat or wear is clearly conditioned by a host of nature and nurture factors and what I have at my disposal at this point, which - following a causal chain - can be attributed by First Principles to the "original" agent - "God" if you prefer the term.

In other words, "free will" is a chimera.

Free will and right to choose is the very basis of our republic.

At the very least, your "will" is conditioned by your genes. Surely I didn't create my own genetic makeup ?

No, but you were given free will and a basic tool kit to overcome them.

Well, if you want to see God in rocks and trees and animals or even your ancetors, that is certainly your choice but i will beleive in One who gives us rules that insists we follow a moral imperative in our relationship to others.

While we sought Nature, you are seeking Religion. You see, the difference. One is all about everything humans see/feel/beyond, the other is all about "self centric humans only".

By holy joe! humans are the only ones who should know and talk about God!.. rest all animals serves humans' cause he is got better consciousness to have better relationships with his own kind.

btw, those moral imperatives drives relationship only towards the believers..

S.Valkan wrote:I hope you are not trying to be factual about this assertion. Over the centuries, there had been various recensions of the Torah, which was expropriated to make the "Old" Testament of the KJV Bible. Even in that Old Testament, one can clearly see that the "facts" mentioned in the Genesis I and Genesis II do not accurately match each other. Similarly, there were indeed numerous Gospels of the "New" Testament floating around, before the Romans called in the Ecumenical councils and took only a few of them as representative texts. Despite the best of efforts, one sees that even those Gospels don't agree with each other on the cornerstone of Christian belief,- the "resurrection of Christ.

Whether I am trying to be factual about this assertion is not in question, as unlike Evangelists, I don't force anyone to believe it. You can accept it or reject it. However if you ask me about the KJV, then that is indeed my answer.

I fully believe that God was present during those Ecumenical councils and although folks in those councils argued & bickered with each other, every book that you see in the Bible was already decided by God. Again for that I go back to the Bible, as the Bible defends itself.

Psalms 12:6 "The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever."

God is not sitting up in heaven saying, "Let me screw around with my people and create multiple versions of the Bible. That will really confuse them!" If God really wants his children to know about him, he will create one Bible and one alone.

I am however intrigued by your statement that the Gospels don't agree with one another. Please do state your findings.

S.Valkan wrote:The greatest disarming technique is to say "I just believe".

Well, that is what Jesus Christ asks you to do

S.Valkan wrote:However, when it comes to "pagan" religions and their numerous deities, the principle of Abrahamic logic is applied in an attempt to show that such "belief" is illogical. This is the most ironic part about Judeo-Christian belief system.

I think every religion out there wants to enforce that their version is truth. That their path is the way and their path is the life. But I don't think addressing other religions as pagan is really the right step to take, if you are attempting to defend them.

S.Valkan wrote:At the very least, your "will" is conditioned by your genes. Surely I didn't create my own genetic makeup ?

Thus if we did not create our own genetic makeup (the most important thing for life to exist) then I am pretty sure that there is a God. And he certainly did not ask us how we ought to be created. If we had no will in that, then what really is free will?

ramana wrote:What do you think saving is all about? Is it really about paap and moksha?

Yes. Paapi which we all are and moksha which we all need.

ramana wrote:So the original might be the one to read in order to understand and comprehend. Maybe the various translations were to reflect the world view and of the translators and their patrons so that the message got distorted.

There is no original anymore, because none of the original texts actually exist. The KJV itself came from manuscripts that don't exist anymore. But I like how you worded the second part of your post. I never really thought of it that way. Very interesting.

Arun_S wrote:that Word is "Om" the creative principle of manifest and unmanifested. World is billions of years old and Bible is mearly few thousand years old. The part of Bible Christians swear by is addmitingly just 1800 years old, so unless it is time twisting wizardry to not aceept plain self evident Truth.

Om, Allah, Prabhu or whatever else. The question here is not about which is older, but the essence of that message. You say Om, others say Allah, still others say Prabhu. At the end of the day, time is meangingless to God.

Shwetank wrote:

Alok_N wrote: boss, what is that "tic tac toe" symbol on the coin? ... I see that Ashoka's lions are still there on the flip-side ...

looks a bit like the German Iron Cross, actually looks a bit like the top of a Christian cross, the bottom side seems a bit too long for it to have all four arms being equal length.

Its the power of suggestion.

I see a snipers cross hairs with the splatter of the enemy's brain

what christian cross?

Kumar wrote:Regarding the weird Rs 2 coin:

Ebay-India is selling them for Rs 40. Why would a Rs 2 coin issued in 2006 sell for Rs 40 within India? Have they already become controversial and hence collectors items?

Anyway the links:
rs 2 coin on ebay
Rs 2 coin on ebay

Kumar,

Thats for international customers. Stamp covers that sell for Rs 10 are sold for Rs100 on ebay for oversears collectors.

Arun

Your EIC coins show no signs of wear at all - can i ask you where you got them from? They look rather crisp to me! (somebodys hoard underground?)

FWIW http://www.cointalk.org/showthread.php?t=1883

07-22-2004, 09:18 AM
sourcingindia
Registered User Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 2

Forged East India Company New Coins!!! Collectors Beware!!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

DEAR COIN COLLECTORS,
BEWARE OF FORGERIES OF FICTITIOUS EAST INDIA COMPANY COINS WITH DATES OF 1616 ,1816,ETC WITH IMAGES OF INDIAN MONKEY GOD HANUMAN, RAMA & LAKSHMANAN ETC WITH GREENISH OLD LIKE PATINA AND OLD WORN OUT LOOK. I AM A COLLECTOR FROM CHENNAI, INDIA AND I WAS SHOCKED TO FIND A DEALER SELLING IN THE INTERNET ALL THESE FORGERIES FOR $15 TO $20 A PIECE.
THESE FORGERIES ARE SOLD TO UNSUSPECTING NOVICES AND TOURISTS AT INDIAN ROAD SHOPS, COIN DEALERS FOR RS 20( 40 CENTS) to RS 50 A PIECE($1) . NEEDLESS TO SAY, THE GREENISH PATINA HAS BEEN CREATED BY CHEMICALS!!!. I WARNED SOME DEALERS THAT THE WRATH OF GOD WILL BE UPON THEM FOR CHEATING PEOPLE BUT THEY SMILED!!!
FROM A COIN COLLECTOR

CPrakash wrote:(somebodys hoard underground?)

Pulikeshi wrote:Thanks for taking the time to respond to my points with civility.

And Thank You for taking the time to respond with clarity. Many in here just ramble on not making any sense. It a pleasure reading your posts, as they do make me ask why.

Pulikeshi wrote:However, please recognize that the only reason you and I have the freedom to argue our ideas out in civility is the right granted by a democratic secular polity that permits me to stand outside the rigid realm of your FAITH & BELIEF and question your assumptions.

Very well put. It was a Hindu King that allowed St Thomas to enter Kerala and spread the message. From my viewpoint, I believe God ordained that. However from a third party, if it was not for that Hindu King who permitted St Thomas to preach the Gospel....Christianity could not have been spread at that moment in time. A number of the customs with the St Thomas Christians have their origins rooted in Hinduism. For example the minu, which is basically the thali.

Pulikeshi wrote:If there are those within the Dharmic religions that oppose this, we may pick an argument, but there is no need to harvest their souls or kill them for their beliefs. Argumentativeness is inborn and encouraged as no model is as yet perfect to define that which is infinite. FAITH & BELIEF has lead the Church and now the Mosque to prevent progress, scientific scrutiny, and innovation. If not for free thinkers, we would still believe the earth flat (trust me there are still some who think this!).

And let me just apologise for the scores of Evangelists who come to India to do just that. That is not what Christainity is about and that is not the God of the Bible. There have been a number of individuals in Christianity however, who have successfully married science & religion. Jonathan Edwards is one such individual who studied astronomy in a scientific manner but in the end was left in complete & utter awe of the Creator who created the cosmos. He wrote scores of papers on astronomy and I think the Jonathan Edwards Centre at Yale University in the process of re-writing some of them, along with his spiritual sermons.

Pulikeshi wrote:Dharmic religions are not fighting a battle for survial, they are challenging your very basis for assuming FAITH & BELIEF. Whose book? Which version? What GOD? Even within the Judeo-Christian-Islamic triad, there is no unity - while it is the same GOD. Within them there is even more confusion. How long will these three blood let in the name of GOD?

Till the end of time, these three will blood let in the name of God. That is their destiny. Ever heard of this old joke? If Allah was really on Pakistan's side, he has got a really good sense of humour An interesting tidbit of info is that once Christ ascended into heaven, his apostles started arguing right away with another. Let confusion reign

Pulikeshi wrote:Anyway, it still does not answer how Jesus died for my sins 2000 odd years ago?

Well the Christian belief is that all men have the sin of Adam upon them. So it does not matter if you were born 5000 years ago, 2000 years ago or right now...Christianity states that we all have the sin of Adam.

Pulikeshi wrote:And what are my sins anyway, that I have biological and social needs, and some of them are not acceptable to the established memes in that particular society?

It is not the acts of sin that you commit that make you a sinner, but it is the very fact that you are born as a sinner which what makes you sin. Again that is the Christian belief.

What it means for polytheists and pagans to get rich for Evanangelics:

http://www.samsloan.com/japan-ch.htm

sanjaykumar wrote:What it means for polytheists and pagans to get rich for Evanangelics:

http://www.samsloan.com/japan-ch.htm

Ikitsuki Island is filled with sites like the eerily named Thousand Corpse Mound, where the authorities executed and buried Christians. Officials sometimes ordered the heads of Christians to be buried far from the rest of their bodies, to reduce the risk of resurrections.

There is always the fear of resurrections.

The Japanese feared insurrections more than resurrections.

Rakesh wrote:

Arun_S wrote:that Word is "Om" the creative principle of manifest and unmanifested. World is billions of years old and Bible is mearly few thousand years old. The part of Bible Christians swear by is addmitingly just 1800 years old, so unless it is time twisting wizardry to not aceept plain self evident Truth.

Om, Allah, Prabhu or whatever else. The question here is not about which is older, but the essence of that message. You say Om, others say Allah, still others say Prabhu. At the end of the day, time is meangingless to God.

I was rebutting as fallacious and wrong your following assertion (in bold and underline) that in John 1:1 the 'Word'(Lagos) means Bible. Don't brush it aside with "at the end of the day" diversion.:

Rakesh wrote:

sanjaykumar wrote:For most thinking people "because my book says so" is not very meaningful.

For Christians, that is the only meaningful thing to say. Does that mean Christians are not thinking people? Biblical support of that is found in John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." So the next question that is asked is what is the word of God and that is the Holy Bible and thus the words of the Bible are inherently true. This is a matter of FAITH.

we all are sinners.. commiting sin like being born in AD. sheesh!~ and the lamb killers & claw foot killers don't do sin! .. does sin was coined from being cynical, etymologically speaking.

per my unde.., moksha is a state of mind. avatars are being born again stages from various stages of life (womb, baby, toddler, youth, adult, married, parenting, aged, mokshaed). something peaceful state based on social aspects of one's interactions with this world.

sope, we get chance to be born-agains quite often per my theory. of course you can carry your sin along with various lifes you have.

cato9

It is not the acts of sin that you commit that make you a sinner, but it is the very fact that you are born as a sinner which what makes you sin. Again that is the Christian belief.

Being a "doubting Thomas" myself -
How can God judge me for a sin I never committed? He has the right to judge my parents for producing me, but I was/am innocent

I can be held responsible for my actions, how can I be judged on some action that was not on account of my free will?
By induction, everyone else had no sin, expect Adam/Eve (if they existed!).

Since, they committed the original sin, what kind of a vindictive God is this that punishes the rest of us who are innocent (of the original sin)? Does'nt seem all too compassionate and forgiving to me!

Are vindictive Gods cramping your style? Choose Dharma! Choose Freedom!

PS: Thanks for a civil discussion, it was a pleasure - Signing out!