Indian Nuclear issues - News and Discussion 16 july 2008

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 19 Jul 2008 20:55

Comment: At the end of the this is what it all means!

BJP, RSS leaders praise Karat
http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... aise+Karat
My enemy’s enemy is my friend may be an old dictum, but many top BJP leaders cannot stop admiring CPI-M general secretary Prakash Karat whose tough stand at his televised press conferences has even impressed the RSS.

Senior BJP and RSS leaders say Karat has shown leadership by steering his party away from the Congress, refusing to take the “humiliation” even it meant political isolation for some time. A senior BJP leader said: “We do not agree with Karat or with the CPI(M) on many issues and we are politically poles apart. But we cannot help being impressed by his style he is clear in his arguments against the government. The Congress-Left divorce may be temporary, but it shows Karat is tough.” Another BJP leader said: “Though we expected the Left to part ways with the Congress sooner or later, we did not believe that Karat would really do what as he has done even when opinion within the Left is divided.”

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 19 Jul 2008 20:57

Sure, let's admire a Chinese puppet whose party betrayed the country during its darkest days. All because he brought down a government for signing a deal that our party would have signed in a heartbeat were we in power.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jul 2008 21:18

LINK

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 19 Jul 2008 21:22

narayanan wrote:I

IOW, Dear Moderator Jagan and other kind and Moderate Enlightened Moderators: Pls kindly onlee note that using the term "Energizer Bunnies" or "EB" should please kindly not now be considered haraam or flamebait (fb) if used (inadvertently and with no disrespect, of course) by aam abduls imitating the Moderate Moderators.

N3,

Be careful what you are asking for. If EB media is flame bait, so is the term DDM. Why is DDM acceptable ? It is you guys who popularised it and made it the norm here. So as long as aam aadmi uses DDM to describe media, how can the moderately enlightened moderator prevent other name calling of media?

One rule applies to all.

-Jagan

PS: Next time you find something objectionable. please use the Report button to report it. Lets not derail the discussion

John Snow · Post by **John Snow** » 19 Jul 2008 21:24

If Obama and John Mcain, Bill C democrats are all for the deal then where is the rush to sign and risking bthe GOI that is on cruise control towards becoming super power with the help of Bush aand Rice?

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Jul 2008 21:26

R-Man,

To be fair to Karat and CPI, we, including me, may abhor what they stand for, but we do NOT have any evidence, just insinuations, that they are acting at the behest of Beijing; anymore than we do that MMS is the mole who let the cat out of the bag to Unkil regarding India's impending nukes tests during the reign of PVN, and the speculaition that he is real agenda is a nuke free 'South Asia'.

Question. During the recent G-8 meeting, where MMS was present as an observer, it was reported that they unanimously approved the nuke deal. What was China's response to that G-8 proclamation?

Raju · Post by **Raju** » 19 Jul 2008 21:29

Rahul M wrote:lust for oil may be ?

ofcourse.
but what further agenda needs to be served by oil, is more important than oil itself.
that's what occam's razor doesn't show.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Jul 2008 21:31

Webmaster Arru_S said:

So I am not alone in saying that "Emperor is walking Naked".

For that, I am sure, Have seen many not only saying that, but actually jumping up and down even when ..er… there is NO EMPEROR!

But this ..

Arun_S wrote:
Najunamar wrote: Amber Jee, You do have a Scientist's temper but perhaps not Scientific temper which is perhaps what you intended to convey here (Lurker mode on)

Najunamar: My stomach is aching from laughter !

Webmasterji are you sure you are not going to run for your “admin hat” ? As of now the figures in your previous calculation has not been retracted, even though obvious absurdities, like inconsistency in digits of significance have been clearly pointed out (see my previous post). Sorry, an admit hat is not going to cover what has been stripped out, and shown clearly for word to see.

Perhaps, the crowd here will go in conspiracy mode, after all about 40 years ago, I did won a scholarship from AEC (one of the two students, in whole India) so that perhaps justifies all the ghalis and abuses , I get from the likes of the esteemed postors and webmasters above.

But having won a gold medal from IIT, having satisfaction of teaching a generation of bright physics/engineering students, raising two wonderful kids, if my “scientific temper” causes smirks on likes of Najunamr and arun_s .. I think I can live with that

JEM, Shivji, Ramana, Rahul_M - No need to send bouncers in admin hats, (or rats who chew the film, for that matter

) in all likelihood this is my last post in this thread. I honestly thought, I could provide something useful here, and expect to be treated with respect, but hey, it is your private club.

I will leave you with a thought. Almost 100 years ago, one of my favorite poet said some thing to the effect :

“Sriman siksha de unhe to srimati kahati yahi
Gero na lalla ko hamare bus naukari karan nahi
Sikhshe tumara nash ho, tum Nokari ke hit bani.
Le Murkhate Jivit Rahe, Rakshak tumare he dhani”

(Rough translation: “ When some one tries to educate others, others will gather and shout and bully you “Down with knowledge … Long live Ignorance (because) its Rakshaks (Protectors) are people with power” )

Regards/

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 19 Jul 2008 21:33

but we do NOT have any evidence, just insinuations, that they are acting at the behest of Beijing;

I think their track record and "China's Chairman is our Chairman" is quite sufficient.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jul 2008 21:34

John Snow wrote:If Obama and John Mcain, Bill C democrats are all for the deal then where is the rush to sign and risking bthe GOI that is on cruise control towards becoming super power with the help of Bush aand Rice?

In India, Complaints About a U.S. Nuclear Deal
Tuesday, Dec. 12, 2006 By SIMON ROBINSON/NEW DELHI
India has complained for years that Western double standards have stopped it from importing the nuclear technology and materials it needs to modernize its civilian nuclear industry. Delhi understands that developing nuclear weapons has earned it the disapproval of the West, but Indians don't accept that they should be denied weapons systems that are the strategic mainstay of powers such as China and Russia. So, you might think the news that the U.S. Congress has passed a bill that bends those rules and allows India to import nuclear fuel would be celebrated in this energy-hungry economic powerhouse. And you would be wrong. Although India's government welcomed the United States-India Peaceful Atomic Energy Cooperation Act, Indian opposition parties, nuclear experts and scientists are demanding that India either renegotiate the deal, or tell the U.S. to forget about it.

India has never signed the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT) and has twice tested nuclear weapons, first in 1974 and then again in 1998. That behavior led the major nuclear powers to refrain from helping India's nuclear program, on the grounds that this program might help Delhi enhance its weapons program. But this year, to the horror of anti-nuclear campaigners around the world, President Bush and Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh agreed that India should get access to U.S. civil nuclear technology and fuel, in return for opening its civilian nuclear facilities to inspection — India's nuclear weapons site would remain off-limits. In effect, the U.S. had accepted India's argument that its military and civilian nuclear programs should be treated separately. Last weekend's vote clears the way for Bush and Manhmohan to negotiate a final agreement.

India wants to build nuclear reactors around the country to power its booming economy, while U.S. nuclear industry giants are rubbing their hands in anticipation of getting a slice of the $100 billion some predict India will spend on nuclear technology in the next decade. So what's not to love about this win-win proposition?

Many in India are livid that the bill suggests — suggests, mind you, rather than demands — that should India carry out another nuclear test, the U.S. and other countries should cease fuel supplies. They're also hostile to the bill's provision for an annual "assessment" by the U.S. of how the program is working, and outraged that the bill includes a non-binding requirement that India support the U.S. position in relation to its efforts to limit Iran's nuclear program because of suspicion that Tehran is trying to attain strategic nuclear capability.

The "offending" proposals were, in fact, so watered down in the final version of the bill that the Hindustan Times newspaper wrote that "India has taken the shirt off America's back on this one." But try telling that to the deal's critics at both ends of India's political spectrum, who charge that the U.S. is dictating terms that impinge on India's sovereignty. P.K. Iyengar, former chairman of India's Atomic Energy Commission, told reporters that the bill indirectly makes India party to the NPT, the Fissile Material Cut-off Treaty and the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT). even though India has always refused to sign them. Iyengar is particularly annoyed by the suggestion that Washington terminate civilian cooperation if India conducts a nuclear test. "It is impossible to have a minimum credible deterrent without conducting nuclear tests," he said.

Specific gripes aside, the critics appear to share a belief that the U.S. has impugned India's pride and independence. There has long been a consensus in the Indian political mainstream that nuclear weapons are India's right, and that Western nuclear powers are hypocritical for seeking to punish or hinder it for building weapons systems that the established nuclear powers have shown no inclination to give up. This sense of wounded dignity is captured in a cartoon in Monday's Times of India, depicting Manmohan at the "nuclear high table," but sitting in a baby's high chair beside President Bush and British Prime Minister Tony Blair, who both sit on grownup seats. "I only wish they'd given me a different chair," laments the Prime Minister. The U.S. sees India as an important democratic ally in Asia, a kind of hedge against the rise of China. But as the reaction to the nuclear deal shows, many Indians still feel like they're being patronized.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/ ... 45,00.html

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 19 Jul 2008 21:40

CRS,

After all the mal intents and conspiracies sans a shred of evidence that you ascribe to US and Indian leaders, it is the height of hypocrisy for you to question whether CPIM's China loyalty. BTW, look up the history of Karat and how CPM split from CPI.

Neshant · Post by **Neshant** » 19 Jul 2008 21:42

There is no reason why india should accept third rate nuclear status when countries which are far lesser powers like UK and France are 'full fledged' nuclear power. There is nothing that entitles them to some special priveledge.

To even start negotiating is to accept the rules of the game as rigged by these existing (and declining) powers.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2008 21:46

Sad that MMS could not be transparent. With a NP in Econ perhaps a place to live in Canada?

(At a cost to a nation that could have been easily estimated ahead of time?)

archan · Post by **archan** » 19 Jul 2008 21:48

To me it seems that they are back with Iran on the negotiation tables. N. Korea is getting aid in return for dismantling its N-plans. Well one thing they cannot take away is knowledge. So maybe all India needs to do is to explode a few bums and let the sanctions come in for a few more years. How much have they been able to hurt afterall? who stops India from clandestine U purchases? in being 'principled' in a world that runs by the rule of jungle, India only has to lose much..

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Jul 2008 21:49

Folks - As I said in previous post - I am going to take a break from this thread. Posted again here for folks who did not read the last post because it was too long.

Edited by author: Thanks to shivji for the suggestion.

Ananth · Post by **Ananth** » 19 Jul 2008 21:53

joshvajohn wrote: http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... aise+Karat

I was waiting for such a "senior leader" said type report after advani in his hindu interview agreed with Karat's stand to break ties with UPA. However, that HT report is twisting the Orgnaiser article. That article was IIRC was dwelling on the reasons behind the current political crisis and the same theme followed in Advani's speech. Is Shekhar Iyer reincarnation of "sources said" Manini chatterjee? Why aren't "senior leader" open like Advani and lend their name to the opinion. The more I think the report looks like a hatchet job to wean away or split CPM. I am OK with that.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Jul 2008 21:59

Rangudu wrote:CRS,

After all the mal intents and conspiracies sans a shred of evidence that you ascribe to US and Indian leaders, it is the height of hypocrisy for you to question whether CPIM's China loyalty. BTW, look up the history of Karat and how CPM split from CPI.

R-man your logic goes like this:

X (CPI) colluded with Y (China) many years ago
Today X does not like Z
Today Y does not like Z
Hence X is acting at the behest of Y

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2008 22:01

Amber G. wrote:Folks - As I said in previous post - I am going to take a break from this thread. Posted again here for folks who did not read the last post because it was too long.

JEM, Shivji, Ramana, Rahul_M - No need to send bouncers in admin hats, (or rats who chew the film, for that matter ) in all likelihood this is my last post in this thread. I honestly thought, I could provide something useful here, and expect to be treated with respect, but hey, it is your private club.

Sorry. Bringing in admin uncle's name when things get hot on this thread is meaningless. If you believe this is our club then there is nothing much I can do to change your view. Your view is yours, just as Arun's views are his.

Responding to a possible insult (or loss of face) by sidetracking and making a veiled suggestion of "a private club" is great rhetoric - but that is not what I would expect from an experienced physics professor such a yourself. But I may be wrong. Are you squealing in pain at the first sign of opposition from people other than Arun? If the pain is genuine please report the post that causes pain.

Amber G. · Post by **Amber G.** » 19 Jul 2008 22:16

Sorry. Bringing in admin uncle's name when things get hot on this thread is meaningless. If you believe this is our club then there is nothing much I can do to change your view. Your view is yours, just as Arun's views are his.

Responding to a possible insult (or loss of face) by sidetracking and making a veiled suggestion of "a private club" is great rhetoric - but that is not what I would expect from an experienced physics professor such a yourself. But I may be wrong. Are you squealing in pain at the first sign of opposition from people other than Arun? If the pain is genuine please report the post that causes pain.

Sorry shivji - All I was saying that you (and other adminds) don't have to resort to put your {admin's hat} etc.. I was volunteering taking a sanyas for a while so the thread can proceed.

Honestly, No squealing in pain etc.. and as I said, I can live easily with what you called /consider "loosing face" .etc ..Believe me, no ulterior motive, or rhetoric .. it was just a simple fact, that I found, time spent on explaining some basic stuff in layman's term, was really not worth (In my opinion , as those numbers are still there)

As, for, what I consider, peculiar actions, like "demanding apologies for libel" is what you think you and your fellow admins think are the way to go, who am I to stop you?

Added later: If comment about "private club", is objectionable, let me say no insult was intended. After all, if I am not mistaken, you yourself said something like that, but may be you used a different set of words..so sorry if you got offended by it, I will happily withdraw it.
(or you can edit the part)

Hope that clarifies the matter. If you want, you can send pm to me, but please be patient, if I can not reply right away as I will be keeping away for a while.

Regards.

CRamS · Post by **CRamS** » 19 Jul 2008 22:17

archan wrote:To me it seems that they are back with Iran on the negotiation tables. N. Korea is getting aid in return for dismantling its N-plans. Well one thing they cannot take away is knowledge. So maybe all India needs to do is to explode a few bums and let the sanctions come in for a few more years. How much have they been able to hurt afterall? who stops India from clandestine U purchases? in being 'principled' in a world that runs by the rule of jungle, India only has to lose much..

No, India cannot withstand another sanctions regime and world opprobrium. Also, contrary to popular claims, the last time post Pokhran-II sanctions were removed not because Unkil relented, rather, after 9/11, Unkil lifted sanctions on TSP after GOBO act by Mush and equal equal necessitated that they be lifted on India too. This time, any hanky panky by India will invite a fercocious sanctions regime and there will be no equal equal to India's rescue. No need to test now. My opposition to the deal is not because I want to test just for the sake of testing, but rather, India would be wilfully enetring into a set of irreversible entanglements and gives Unkil a huge lever over India through oppressive inspections and albatrosses around India's neck. For me, Unkil'e motives are clear: nuke CRE of India. But not signing the deal does not mean that India do anything irrational by just exploding some bums to show off our machismo. India's march to great power status and credible nuke deterrant has to be through a war of attrition. Slow & steady wins the race.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 19 Jul 2008 22:20

archan wrote:To me it seems that they are back with Iran on the negotiation tables. N. Korea is getting aid in return for dismantling its N-plans. Well one thing they cannot take away is knowledge. So maybe all India needs to do is to explode a few bums and let the sanctions come in for a few more years. How much have they been able to hurt afterall? who stops India from clandestine U purchases? in being 'principled' in a world that runs by the rule of jungle, India only has to lose much..

Trading, one N for another, Nuclear for Noble could be enticing. Who knows.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 19 Jul 2008 22:24

CRS,

The logic is actually like this:

CPM (not CPI) split from parent party because of China loyalty
Same leaders are in power today
Same leaders still will not support India on a SINGLE matter when it concerns China
Same leaders who said "China's chairman is our chairman" are in power
Same leaders who B.Raman exposed last year as taking money from Chinese firms to lobby for them and help them set up base near Indian military facilities are in power
Same leaders who pressured GoI to bend over backwards on the Tibet issue are in power

QED.

BTW, suit yourself. As I said before, if you cannot see past your irrational and near manic views on America's alleged CRE goals etc. then there's nothing any of us can do.

archan · Post by **archan** » 19 Jul 2008 22:26

NRao wrote:
archan wrote:To me it seems that they are back with Iran on the negotiation tables. N. Korea is getting aid in return for dismantling its N-plans. Well one thing they cannot take away is knowledge. So maybe all India needs to do is to explode a few bums and let the sanctions come in for a few more years. How much have they been able to hurt afterall? who stops India from clandestine U purchases? in being 'principled' in a world that runs by the rule of jungle, India only has to lose much..
Trading, one N for another, Nuclear for Noble could be enticing. Who knows.

Did you men Noble or Nobel?

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 19 Jul 2008 22:27

If yo ask my opinon AmberG - a series of egos have been hurt (and I am not necessarily referreing to you) so badly on these threads that everyone is scrambling to either insult back or regain izzat.

Anyway in 2-3 days we will have some info of whether this government will fall over this issue. This may be a good time to buy certain shares.

As an aside we had a mini BR meet in Bangalore today and one of the things we discussed was money and bribes. My view on money and bribes is that there is so much bribe money to be made in india itself that most Indian politiclans are not bribable by the US. Not because the US cannot offer the money - but because the US will be suspected of attaching strings that will screw bribe takers in India later. No Indian politician in his right senses - normally a person who could make several hundred or thousand crores in property of money in india would be tempted by US bribes. It's just too unsafe. Bribes done in india are far safer. That is the US's fundamental problem with getting things done in india.

Added later: The problem is not so much about the money that the US can pay - but the rules in India that make it very difficult to bring bribe money back into India to be usable here.So US money loses steam in this way - except for the small players (tens of millions of $)

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 19 Jul 2008 22:29

http://www.southasiaanalysis.org/papers ... r2335.html

A Chinese company had won a contract for the construction of a gas pipeline from the Godavari area in Andhra Pradesh. It wanted to bring about 1,000 Chinese engineers to work in the project. The Ministry of Home Affairs (MHA) and the Intelligence Bureau of the Government of India were not clearing the issue of visas to the Chinese engineers. They asked a number of inconvenient questions as to why it was necessary for the Chinese company to bring in so many of their engineers when unemployed Indian engineers were available.

3. There was also a paper prepared by the National Security Council Secretariat of the Prime Minister's Office suggesting that proposals for foreign investments in sensitive sectors such as telecommunication services from China, Pakistan and Bangladesh should be subjected to a special security vetting.

4. Shri Sitaram Yechury of the Communist Party of India (Marxist), allegedly at the instance of the Chinese Embassy in New Delhi, raised a big hue and cry about it and literally forced the Government of India to order the issue of visas to the Chinese engineers and to drop the proposal for a special security vetting for Chinese investment proposals in sensitive sectors.

...

The present day Indian Marxists don't say this, but they do believe that "China's Interest is Our Interest." It is this belief, which is behind their present campaign against the Government of India. Their hidden motive should be exposed.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 19 Jul 2008 22:39

Neshant wrote:There is no reason why india should accept third rate nuclear status when countries which are far lesser powers like UK and France are 'full fledged' nuclear power.

Is nuclear status really something that is granted by outsiders?

Or does a nation present 'facts on the ground' and let others simply deal with it?

France for example possesses an arsenal far more advanced than India's. It has demonstrated high yield thermonuclear weapons and developed advanced miniaturized TN warheads. It has built and deployed the delivery systems - nuclear bombers, cruise missiles, IRBMs, SSNs, SSBNs to carry these weapons. It has tested its arsenal fully, over decades. It has built facilities for subcritical testing and laser inertial confinement fusion. It secured Uranium reserves in Africa for itself. It built massive Pu production and breeder reactors to ensure it had enough fissile material. It has a nuclear doctrine that says and invasion of its territory will meet a nuclear response to the territory of the aggressor.

It did a lot of this while India was preaching the virtues of disarmament, no first use etc and dithering over actually developing weapons.

So France has 'official' NWS status while India does not. This is not France's fault.
Is France undeserving of this status? Is it a lesser power?

It has an arsenal of SLBMs while India does not. France has never stopped flight testing of its missiles, no self-moratorium, or waited for a US General to give approval.

svinayak · Post by **svinayak** » 19 Jul 2008 22:48

shiv wrote:
As an aside we had a mini BR meet in Bangalore today and one of the things we discussed was money and bribes. My view on money and bribes is that there is so much bribe money to be made in india itself that most Indian politiclans are not bribable by the US. Not because the US cannot offer the money - but because the US will be suspected of attaching strings that will screw bribe takers in India later. No Indian politician in his right senses - normally a person who could make several hundred or thousand crores in property of money in india would be tempted by US bribes. It's just too unsafe. Bribes done in india are far safer. That is the US's fundamental problem with getting things done in india.

Added later: The problem is not so much about the money that the US can pay - but the rules in India that make it very difficult to bring bribe money back into India to be usable here.So US money loses steam in this way - except for the small players (tens of millions of $)

That is a good way of looking at it but US can still have its man inside India who would pass money inside India. Even the bribe taker would not know where the money is coming from. In the current situation in Dilli the hustlers are all over the place. I know one person in US who has taken 3 weeks off to be in Dilli just to ensure the deal passes off. How much money he would have taken to India - Can you imagine?

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 19 Jul 2008 23:52

CPM is China's stooge but why did Congress form a govt with them. Since CPM's pro China credentials so well established, did the Congress think that forming a govt with them would reduce that.

Did the Congress take BJP's support for granted when it formed a mechanism with the Left(including the CPM) to sort out the issues?

Only when the Left proved intransigent, did the Congress run to BJP for support. And the BJP is accused of politicking while the Congress is absolved of the blame.

Rangudu · Post by **Rangudu** » 19 Jul 2008 23:54

If the only hustlers are on the "pass the deal" side then this deal would have been done by now. Given that the wheeling and dealing is going on against the deal as well, who will account for the folks paid off by China or TSP to kill it at all costs? Many Indian business people support this deal because of their self interest in the sense that a close Indo-US relationship following this deal would mean more opportunities for Indian businesses to make $$ in the US market. This wheeling and dealing will increase with or without this deal because as long as GoI has power over the Indian economy and India's GDP grows at 8-9% pa, people will have higher and higher stakes to ensure a government that is favorable to their interests.

rajrang · Post by **rajrang** » 19 Jul 2008 23:56

Gerard wrote:
Neshant wrote:There is no reason why india should accept third rate nuclear status when countries which are far lesser powers like UK and France are 'full fledged' nuclear power.
Is nuclear status really something that is granted by outsiders?

Or does a nation present 'facts on the ground' and let others simply deal with it?

France for example possesses an arsenal far more advanced than India's. It has demonstrated high yield thermonuclear weapons and developed advanced miniaturized TN warheads. It has built and deployed the delivery systems - nuclear bombers, cruise missiles, IRBMs, SSNs, SSBNs to carry these weapons. It has tested its arsenal fully, over decades. It has built facilities for subcritical testing and laser inertial confinement fusion. It secured Uranium reserves in Africa for itself. It built massive Pu production and breeder reactors to ensure it had enough fissile material. It has a nuclear doctrine that says and invasion of its territory will meet a nuclear response to the territory of the aggressor.

It did a lot of this while India was preaching the virtues of disarmament, no first use etc and dithering over actually developing weapons.

So France has 'official' NWS status while India does not. This is not France's fault.
Is France undeserving of this status? Is it a lesser power?

It has an arsenal of SLBMs while India does not. France has never stopped flight testing of its missiles, no self-moratorium, or waited for a US General to give approval.

I would like to point out that 4/5 decades from today when India is the world's second largest economic power - about 5 or 10 times the size of France economically, 20 times in population, then yes France will be a significantly lesser power in many respects except nuclear.

Today one could argue that economically India and France are roughly equals (PPP terms). India has a much bigger population. Both practice democracy. Overall India should be ahead of France in the global totem pole with the exception of nuclear power.

Today India is a NWS whether other countries recognize it or not. By signing this nuclear deal, India is formally accepting an inferior status with regard to the nuclear field.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 20 Jul 2008 00:19

I know a person in US who has taken 4 weeks off and he is not taking any money with him instead he is taking a dozen blonds with him. So I asked him Indian would also want money/bribe with the flesh. How would you ensure the deal goes through? He told me he'll patch up with the guy that Acharya is talking about for money matters.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 20 Jul 2008 00:29

I would like to point out that 4/5 decades from today when India is the world's second largest economic power

When this occurs no Hyde, 123, NPT, IAEA etc will be able to restrain India.

shyam · Post by **shyam** » 20 Jul 2008 00:40

As India globalizes, it is not difficult to bribe Indian politicians. All these politicians go abroad for various reasons. About a decade ago, a friend of mine was doing IT project in Switzerland and being a musician, he used particiapte in many Kerala association functions. He said that one senior minister from Kerala used to visit Switzerland regularly, and he must be going there to check his Swiss bank account. Today our politicians have to go abroad for several reasons, such as tourism, fund raising, medical treatment, children's educations, and you don't know what more.

But, as Shiv said, the strings that come along with the bribe must be a scary thing for our politicians who are aware of uncle's capabilities. Germany's recent offer to give swiss bank account details must be a scary reminder.

If Indian corporations are involved, it is not difficult to convert american money to rupees to pay bribe.

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Jul 2008 00:51

FWIW -

PM open to Jekyll law to blunt US Hyde Act

NEW DELHI: In a move to blunt the opposition to the nuclear deal, the UPA government is prepared to amend the Atomic Energy Act so as to introduce provisions which would act as a counter to the US Hyde Act, one of the main causes of opposition to the deal from the Left and BJP.

Top official sources said the government is "open to the idea" and would be happy to get suggestions from all parties, including the BJP and Left, on how to amend the law. Jocularly referred to as India's Jekyll Act (inspired by R L Stevenson's classic on multiple personality disorder, 'Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde'), the amendment was first mooted by BJP as an insurance against the US Hyde Act.

'Advani had backed proposal to amend law to counter Hyde Act'

Sources say Manmohan Singh had raised the issue of amending the law to counter US Hyde Act with BJP leader L K Advani. "When Advaniji came to present his book to the Prime Minister, he asked him whether he had concrete suggestions on how to amend the Atomic Energy Act," they said. The sources claimed Advani was not very clear on the matter.

When contacted, Advani supported the idea of effecting changes in the domestic law to have a cushion against the implications of the Hyde Act for the nuclear programme. Disputing the suggestion that there was no clarity in the BJP on the matter, he recalled that it was he who first suggested amendments to the Atomic Energy Act to insulate India's nuclear programme from the possible implications of the Hyde Act.

"It was from Pune that I issued a statement suggesting legal experts can examine whether we can amend the law to have a buffer against the Hyde Act," NDA's prime ministerial candidate told TOI.

The BJP leader said that he had suggested the same to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh when the latter visited Atal Bihari Vajpayee to seek his support for the deal.

Spelling out his party's official stand on the issue, Advani said: "So far as party's official stand is concerned, we will, if we have the opportunity, renegotiate the nuclear deal with the US and have measures to insulate us from the curbs imposed under the Hyde Act".

The BJP leader stressed that unlike Left, BJP was not opposed to either having a strategic partnership with the US or efforts to source nuclear fuel from it. "We are opposing the deal because we consider it to be an inequal treaty and our contention has been validated by the draft safeguards agreement with the IAEA which treats India as a non-nuclear weapon state. Our opposition also stems from the fact that the deal exposes the strategic programme to curbs enshrined under the Hyde Act," he said.

joshvajohn · Post by **joshvajohn** » 20 Jul 2008 01:04

Comment on the above news item...
PM is playing the right card at the right time. I think it is better for Advani to consider seriously about it if he is going to become a pm next time and give a handshake to Obama or McCain it would not a shameful act. It will save his face.

One needs to be very careful about what is for India in the next five years.

paramu · Post by **paramu** » 20 Jul 2008 01:07

Why this news in Jul 20?
Why not several months back? Why not a parliamentary discussion before?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 20 Jul 2008 01:12

would be happy to get suggestions from all parties

(a) a prohibition on the removal from India of any fuel, technology, reactors etc
(b) an absolute prohibition on entry by inspectors to any military facility
(c) a prohibition on the signing of CTBT or similar treaty
(d) a requirement that any FMCT signature require a vote in the parliament

etc etc

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 Jul 2008 01:13

Acharya wrote: That is a good way of looking at it but US can still have its man inside India who would pass money inside India. Even the bribe taker would not know where the money is coming from. In the current situation in Dilli the hustlers are all over the place. I know one person in US who has taken 3 weeks off to be in Dilli just to ensure the deal passes off. How much money he would have taken to India - Can you imagine?

There is more than money that matters here, and that is power. If money was all that mattered, why are some of the MPs( non-UPA, non-NDA and non-left) that the UPA is wooing still not signing up? 25 crores per MP is still not enough to sway the MPs? Every politician knows that power is the goose that lays the golden egg. They can make more money by being in power for a long time than taking whatever is offered and running. And I agree with Shiv that US money is no more an attraction. The Indian business houses are now in the billionaire club and they can spend money as required as long as it protects their interests.

The left with their rabid anti-US and pro-China stand are trying to clutch at straws here. BJP is doing what Indian opposition parties typically do, pull down the government and try to gain power. The other parties are milking the UPA for all they are worth.

Just because one person is going to India for three weeks to push the deal, does it mean that they are coming to India to bribe everyone?

Muppalla · Post by **Muppalla** » 20 Jul 2008 01:16

paramu wrote:Why this news in Jul 20?
Why not several months back? Why not a parliamentary discussion before?

If you have followed this thread that started a zillion years ago, you wouldn't ask this question. Ramana was posting(with analysis) the articles from Seema Mustafa and others and many others gurus were writing the political fallout of this deal.

If Congress went with BJP on Nuke deal and made a deal that could have ended congress party as a force in Inda. They did a similar thing in Ayodhya during 80s and ended up in current state. It is the mandate of BR to not discuss politics, I will stop there.

However, why now is a question needs analysis from gurus.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 20 Jul 2008 01:20

Big blow to UPA/SP

Until yesterday this guy was SP's face on TV defending deal and Mulayam, today he is wishing for Maya to become next PM.

http://www.rediff.com/news/2008/jul/19upavote9.htm

It seems most Muslim MP's are uniting as expected -> Islam first everything else comes next.

Communists are uniting as expected -> Ideology first

Business community is uniting as expected -> Business first

It's the nationalists and Hindutwa wadi who are just lusting after power with no sense of direction. The majority has no one representing them, everyone's busy in appeasing their own vote banks.

At this juncture I would wish this govt falls and this deal never gets signed. It has divided the nation like noting else in recent memory. The advantages of deal has already been lost in the allegations of anti-nationalism, mols, betrayals, horse trading, politicians jumping ships faster than I can blink my eyes, communalization of the deal , vitiating foreign policies and what not.

Must let it go!

I change my vote to No deal

P.S. I still support the deal in its current form but not at the cost of the direction that our nation (and BRF) is being pushed.