Indian Response to Terrorism

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amit
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

vera_k wrote:X-posting from the terror attacks thread.
It is the second because Indira Gandhi showed in 1971 that the Americans cannot stop India if it gets going. IMO the ongoing political transition from the Congress to the BJP has reduced the space for the Congress to investigate terrorism effectively for fear of offending the Muslim votebank. Sooner the transition is completed (or reversed), the sooner we will see an effective approach to terror.
Vera,

I also think its the second point. Sadly ever since the Kandahar fiasco we've shown ourselves to be pathetically soft nation always taking the easy option out. I'm sure the Puke terrorist handlers have a hearty laugh when they here the insipid statements made by our PMs in times such as this. MMS was joke as was even the great Vajpayee ji during the Parliament attack.

One point about the MMS name calling going on here. I happen to think the Congress has been a singular failure during its present rule in combating terrorism.

However, I don't understand how folks here think that if the BJP had been in power the reaction would have been much more robust? Where's the empirical evidence of that? Remember an even bigger symbol of the Idea of India than the Taj, Trident and Nariman House was attacked during the NDA government and that is Parliament House.

And what did we have for a robust reaction for that outrage? A ponderous mobilisation costing crores of rupees and lives of several jawans. And then what? Everybody just went home.

What every one IMO opinion fail to take into consideration is that whether its the Congress via the UPA or BJP via NDA, whoever is in power at the Centre, suffer from the same problem. And that's coalition politics which paralyzes decision making as it gives disproportionate power to small regional parties which have absolutely no Pan-Indian agenda. That problem will only go away if we can get out of this vicious cycle of coalition politics which was the lasting gift of our dear former PM who departed from his body yesterday.

Do you think Indira Gandhi would have been able to act so decisively in 1971 if she had to be worried about continuing support from maybe 3 MPs who together account of .00005 per cent of Indian votes?

Remember Modi is so effective in dealing with terror in Gujarat because he doesn't have to look over his shoulders at what his "partners" are up to.

Let's just hope come May next year fellow Indians give a decisive verdict to whom so ever they feel is fittest to rule this nation.
Last edited by amit on 28 Nov 2008 11:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by rgsrini »

anishns,
I didn't mean you were asking them to run to the border. I meant I would not have that expectation.

BTW I am also very disappointed with MMS's statement. I guess he approaches every problem using the basic principles of economics including garnering votes for his party. How much can I tax (offend) a particular economic activity (community) that brings me maximum dividends (votes) without shutting down the economic activity altogether (cost the elections).

Now there is a huge economic disincentive (loss of votes) for inaction (action against terrorists and their handlers). He will act.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Nayak »

Sophisticated Attacks, but by Whom?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/28/world ... ei=5087%0A

Article Tools Sponsored By
By ALAN COWELL and SOUAD MEKHENNET
Published: November 27, 2008

PARIS — A day after the terror attacks in Mumbai that killed over 100 people, one question remained as impenetrable as the smoke that still billowed from two of the city’s landmark hotels: who carried out the attacks?

The Indian authorities say they captured some of the attackers, so some answers may emerge soon. But for now, their identities remain a mystery. Surviving witnesses recalled the gunmen as masked young men in unremarkable T-shirts and jeans, some heavily armed, wearing backpacks filled with weapons. The only claim of responsibility came from a group that may not even exist.

The assaults represented a marked departure in scope and ambition from other recent terrorist attacks in India, which have singled out local people rather than foreigners and hit single rather than multiple targets.

The Mumbai assault, by contrast, was seemed directed at foreigners, involved hostage taking and was aimed at multiple and highly symbolic targets.

Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India said the attacks probably had “external linkages,” reflecting calculations among Indian officials that the level of planning, preparation and coordination could not have been achieved without help from experienced terrorists. But some security experts insisted the style of the attacks and the targets in Mumbai suggested the militants were likely to be Indian Muslims, with a domestic agenda.

The e-mail message taking responsibility that was sent to Indian media outlets on Wednesday night said the attackers were from a group called Deccan Mujahedeen. Deccan is a neighborhood of the Indian city of Hyderabad. The word also describes the middle and south of India, which is dominated by the Deccan Plateau. Mujahedeen is the commonly used Arabic word for holy fighters.

But security experts drew a blank on any such organization. Sajjan Gohel, a security expert in London, called it a “front name” and said the group was “nonexistent.”

An Indian security official who spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to be identified said the name suggested ties to a group called Indian Mujahedeen, which has been implicated in a string of bombing attacks in India killing about 200 people this year alone.

On Sept. 15, an e-mail message published in Indian newspapers and said to have been sent by representatives of Indian Mujahedeen threatened potential “deadly attacks” in Mumbai. The message warned counterterrorism officials in the city that “you are already on our hit-list and this time very, very seriously.”

Several high-ranking law enforcement officials, including the chief of the antiterrorism squad and a commissioner of police, were, indeed, reported killed in the attacks in Mumbai.

With relations long strained between India and Pakistan, particularly over the disputed territory of Kashmir, suspicions turned toward Al Qaeda or Pakistani militants. The Indian security official said the attackers likely had ties to Lashkar-e-Taiba, a guerrilla group run by Pakistani intelligence in the conflict with India in the disputed territory of Kashmir. On Thursday, the group denied involved in the Mumbai attacks. India also blamed Lashkar-e-Taiba for a suicide assault on its Parliament by gunmen in December 2001 that led to a perilous military standoff with Pakistan.

The Indian official also suggested the foot-soldiers in the attack might have emerged from an outlawed militant group of Islamic students. Photographs from security cameras showed some youthful attackers carrying assault rifles and smiling as they began the operation.

Christine Fair, senior political scientist and a South Asia expert at the RAND Corporation, was careful to say that the identity of the terrorists could not yet be known. But she pointed to India’s domestic problems, and long tensions between Hindus, who make up about 80 percent of India’s population of 1.13 billion, and Muslims, who make up 13.4 percent.

“There are a lot of very, very angry Muslims in India,” Ms. Fair said. “The economic disparities are startling and India has been very slow to publicly embrace its rising Muslim problem. You cannot put lipstick on this pig. This is a major domestic political challenge for India.

“The public political face of India says, ‘Our Muslims have not been radicalized,’ she said. “But the Indian intelligence apparatus knows that’s not true. India’s Muslim communities are being sucked into the global landscape of Islamist jihad.”

“Indians will have a strong incentive to link this to Al Qaeda,” she said. “But this is a domestic issue. This is not India’s 9/11.”

Alan Cowell reported from Paris, and Souad Mekhennet from Frankfurt. Mark McDonald contributed reporting from Hong Kong, and Salman Masood from Islamabad, Pakistan.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by darshan »

If coalition parties are that much of the trouble, then nobody is stopping MMS to come out and explain it to the public unless he likes that throne too much to let go.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

darshan wrote:If coalition parties are that much of the trouble, then nobody is stopping MMS to come out and explain it to the public unless he likes that throne too much to let go.

Darshan,

What do you want MMS to do, go on National TV and say he wants to go war with Pakistan but Mulayam Yadav is not allowing him to do so?

Look these are very trying times for India, let's not get carried away.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ldev »

Two comments:

1. For the first time, an Indian government has NOT negotiated with terrorists. It also happens to be a Congress government. All previous governments including the BJP gave in to terrorist demands.

2. The behaviour of posters in the first version of the Mumbai blast threads is nothing short of shameful. The insults and taunts hurled on the Maharashtra ATS (whose commander Hemant Karkare was killed within hours of those taunts being hurled on him here on this forum and while he and his men were dying for the common people they were protecting) and the Government of India left me speechless. Even more troubling was that those taunts relating to the Malegaon situation were egged on by Ramana and Shiv, a current senior moderator and a former mod which led other lesser lumnaries to follow up is nothing short of shameful IMO. I wonder if Ramana will consider it below his dignity to apologize to the Maharashtra ATS and its slain former commander Hemant Karkare or are the political biases overpowering?
Last edited by ldev on 28 Nov 2008 11:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by darshan »

Amit,

Believe me, I am not carried away anywhere. I just simply do not like these stupid coalition blah blah excuses every time from disinvestment, strikes, to responding to terrorists. This is not the first incident and he had almost five years to convey this message multiple times. Politician is a politician end of the day and that is what I am calling him. I just happen to think politicians are nothing but garbage and should be kept on short leash by voting public all the time.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by R_Kumar »

ldev wrote:Two comments:

1. For the first time, an Indian government has NOT negotiated with terrorists. It also happens to be a Congress government. All previous governments including the BJP gave in to terrorist demands.
Looking at the public anger and the embarrassment faced by BJP government after the terrorist release, do you think government have any other option this time ?
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

darshan wrote:Amit,

Believe me, I am not carried away anywhere. I just simply do not like these stupid coalition blah blah excuses every time from disinvestment, strikes, to responding to terrorists. This is not the first incident and he had almost five years to convey this message multiple times. Politician is a politician end of the day and that is what I am calling him. I just happen to think politicians are nothing but garbage and should be kept on short leash by voting public all the time.

OK Darshan,

Since you insist on carrying forward the discussion despite the fact the operations are still ongoing in Mumbai, let me ask you something.

First let's get one thing out of the way: MMS is totally backboneless and in love with his throne. And the Congress is beholden to foreign forces which are inimical to India.

However, now can you explain to me why we had an even softer reaction to the outrages that happened during NDA government with Vajpayee ji as PM and Loha Purush Advani as Home Minister?

Why was there abject surrender at Kandahar, why wasn't the Indian Army allowed to cross the border - and thus minimise Indian casualties - when the strong duo was in power during Kargil? Why wasn't Parakram brought to it's logical conclusion with Pakistan taught a lesson they would have never forgotten. If you happen to glance at Paki fora they consider the stand down after Parakram to be a victory for Pakistan.

(Also how do you explain the fact that it was under India's "weakest" PM that the government refused to negotiate despite the fact that a significant number of hostages are high net worth foreigners?)

Now I hope you'll understand why I say that whether the NDA or the UPA they are both hindered by coalition politics.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by R_Kumar »

ldev wrote:Two comments:
2. The behaviour of posters in the first version of the Mumbai blast threads is nothing short of shameful. The insults and taunts hurled on the Maharashtra ATS (whose commander Hemant Karkare was killed within hours of those taunts being hurled on him here on this forum and while he and his men were dying for the common people they were protecting) and the Government of India left me speechless. Even more troubling was that those taunts relating to the Malegaon situation were egged on by Ramana and Shiv, a current senior moderator and a former mod which led other lesser lumnaries to follow up is nothing short of shameful IMO. I wonder if Ramana will consider it below his dignity to apologize to the Maharashtra ATS and its slain former commander Hemant Karkare or are the political biases overpowering?
Since the person is dead so I can't talk bad about him. But you need to look at the drama before this terrorist attack. Eventually people anger will come out.
In my opinion Karkare was bit casual in his approach. When I was watching him live, I told my wife why he is acting so casual and why there are so many people around him. And just 10 minutes later he was dead. Even though I was angry with him because of Malegaun drama, It was a sad moment and felt sorry for him.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by R_Kumar »

amit wrote:
darshan wrote:Amit,

Believe me, I am not carried away anywhere. I just simply do not like these stupid coalition blah blah excuses every time from disinvestment, strikes, to responding to terrorists. This is not the first incident and he had almost five years to convey this message multiple times. Politician is a politician end of the day and that is what I am calling him. I just happen to think politicians are nothing but garbage and should be kept on short leash by voting public all the time.

OK Darshan,

Since you insist on carrying forward the discussion despite the fact the operations are still ongoing in Mumbai, let me ask you something.

First let's get one thing out of the way: MMS is totally backboneless and in love with his throne. And the Congress is beholden to foreign forces which are inimical to India.

However, now can you explain to me why we had an even softer reaction to the outrages that happened during NDA government with Vajpayee ji as PM and Loha Purush Advani as Home Minister?

Why was there abject surrender at Kandahar, why wasn't the Indian Army allowed to cross the border - and thus minimise Indian casualties - when the strong duo was in power during Kargil? Why wasn't Parakram brought to it's logical conclusion with Pakistan taught a lesson they would have never forgotten. If you happen to glance at Paki fora they consider the stand down after Parakram to be a victory for Pakistan.

(Also how do you explain the fact that it was under India's "weakest" PM that the government refused to negotiate despite the fact that a significant number of hostages are high net worth foreigners?)

Now I hope you'll understand why I say that whether the NDA or the UPA they are both hindered by coalition politics.
People are not blind they can see whats going on.

- Why he is not hanging Afzal Guru?

- Why Muslims will have first right to the national assets?

- Why he declared that Pakistan and India are both facing same problem?

- The first thing he did that scrapped Pota. Why? Don't we still have similar law in Mahrastra and some other state?

- Why did he allow ATS to drag Indian Army? Now in world eyes army and Hindu groups are also one of the suspects.

- He lost his sleep when some Muslim gets arrested in Australia but when Hindu dies he just comes out on the screen and spit out standard text.

- Janta may give benefit of doubt to BJP in Hijacking case as they were inexperienced. Same MMS congress men were doing big drama in front of PM house to do negotiation with hijackers. I didn't see any one doing drama this time(Including BJP).

- Looking at the public anger, there is no way any government could do negotiation this time.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

Muppalla wrote:Out of two worst PMs we have/had one is in office and the otherone died today.
I think both died today, V.P. as a person and MMS as a political quantity.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Philip »

The western spin doctors are already trying to spin out the theory that there are "a lot of angry Muslims in India" and that this terrorism is "homegrown".Yes,it is an accepted fact that there are some sympathisers like SIMI and local cells who are involved in terror,but the masterminds are clearly Pak and the uncontrollable elements of the military/ISI/Paki establishment who want to drag India down with them into the sewer.

Could we retitle this thread as "India's response to Pak terror",since this implies "all" kinds of terror,which could be dealt with by the "internal security/intelligence" threads? The thread could also collate all evidenc eagainst pak/ISI/etc. on this thread instead of on the ongoing event thread following devlopments by the miniute.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/w ... 248664.ece
Bombay attacks: India points the finger at Pakistan

(Ajit Solanki/AP)
Schoolchildren in Ahmadabad hold candles as they pay tribute to the victims

Jeremy Page in Bombay
Graphic: how terror spread | They came to kill and maim | Survivors' tales | Analysis: Bronwen Maddox | Andreas Liveras shot dead | The specialist in 'encounter killings' | Was al-Qaeda was pulling the strings? |Leading article: Massacre in Bombay

Updated at 00.31 GMT (06.02 Bombay)

India pointed an accusing finger at Pakistan yesterday as commandos fought suspected Islamist terrorists through the corridors of two of Bombay’s top hotels. Dozens of foreigners were still being held hostage or trapped in the buildings.

At least 125 people were killed and 327 wounded in Wednesday’s attacks on some of the city’s most high-profile buildings. Local hospitals and police said that the toll would rise further.

Related Links
Commandos storm Bombay Jewish centre
24 hours that struck terror into Bombay's heart
Singh has enough worries without religious strife

GRAPHIC: how the terrorists spread fear
Nine foreigners were among the dead, including one Briton, a Japanese businessman, an Australian, a German and an Italian. Andreas Liveras, a 73-year-old British shipping tycoon, was shot dead moments after telling reporters that he was hiding in the basement of the Taj Mahal Palace.

The Foreign and Commonwealth Office would not say how many British citizens were injured, trapped or being held hostage at the Taj Mahal and Oberoi hotels. Between 15 and 20 French nationals were inside.

Seven people were rescued from a residential complex that houses a Jewish centre. The Israeli Embassy said that ten of its citizens were being held hostage. A militant inside called a television channel to offer talks with the Government. He complained about rights abuses in Kashmir, over which India and Pakistan have fought two of their three wars since 1947.

The Indian Prime Minister, Manmohan Singh, blamed the multiple attacks on forces “outside the country”, a thinly veiled reference to Pakistan. The Indian Navy boarded a cargo ship that had recently arrived in Bombay from Pakistan. The tension conjured memories of a militant attack on the Indian Parliament in 2001, which almost sparked a fourth war between the nuclear-armed neighbours.

Helicopters buzzed and crowds cheered as commandos moved into the Oberoi, where 20 to 30 people were thought to have been taken hostage and more than 100 were trapped in rooms. Gunshots rang out and flames billowed from a window.

The Taj Mahal hotel was also rocked by explosions and gunfire. Police claimed that only one injured militant remained in the building.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by ldev »

R Kumar,

In your opinion Karkare's approach was casual. But while you and I and a whole lot of others on this forum are armchair experts and alive today, he and his men died defending a city they had sworn to protect probably at the same time that they were being vilified on this forum which is called the Bharat Rakshak Forum... isnt it ironic? The armchair rakshaks and the moderators were taunting the genuine rakshaks who were probably dying at that moment at the hands of the terrorists..... There are times when political differences should be put aside... this is one of them but it was certainly not in evidence in that thread.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

R_Kumar wrote:Wrote...
Boss, unless you're in it for a rant, you should remember two wrongs don't make one right. I've already said UPA's record on terrorism is pathetic.

However, that doesn't make NDA's record a shinning beacon.

If you had paused for a moment to read my posts you'd have noticed that I said that both the UPA and NDA have been hobbled by the curse of coalition politics.

UPA's abysmal record can be blamed on MMS. But on whom are you going to blame NDA's less than steller handling of terror and India's security?

At least no one except Bakra (spelling deliberate) Dutt was talking about negotiations. Not even Jassu bhai...
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by darshan »

Amit,

Kandahar issue and Parliament issues have been discussed here multiple times and I have no intent of discussing them. In my post, I have simply used word politician and voiced my opinion about coalition excuse. If NDA was current govt and using that excuse, i would have said the same thing. Until there is a clear evidence or admission by a current ruling PM or President, that coalition excuse does not hold much water.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

Nayak wrote:For $hits and giggles yo !!



Regarding the events in India: The only question we should be asking ourselves, by Arundhati Roy

http://www.pej.org/html/modules.php?op= ... =0&thold=0

“I think, the thing that I’m thinking the most about, the question that occupies me a lot these days is, what kind, what form of resistance is effective, and acceptable to us?

“Because, I see all over and all around us, that obviously resistance, whether it’s in Palestine, or Iraq, or Kashmir, or in the north eastern states of India, or now all over India, there is a kind of armed struggle rising up, being put down viciously by the State, and at the same time non-violent resistance movements are given a lot of air time, a lot of publicity, a lot of space, but it’s also because it makes the State comfortable, it makes the comfortable comfortable.

“So between non-violent resistance and armed struggle, where do we go? What is effective? What is the right thing to do, or do we need a bio-diversity of resistance? Do we need all kinds of resistance? And do we need to stop this search for being pristine? Do we need to be able to accept that whatever form we choose and all the various ways, in which we, decide to resist will not be pure, and we accept that impurity with some kind of generosity?

“So really the strategies of resistance and what they ought to be is what occupies my time a lot these days.”

Suzanna Arundhati Roy
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Suzanna ???? Do the HFLs have a semi-hidden X-tian/M-lim name tucked in somewhere?
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Stimuli and response

Post by vishal »

Even as the operation against the terrorists who invaded Mumbai enters the final phases, the apologists for the terrorists have started to crawl out of the woodwork. Barkha Dutt of NDTV was passionate in her defence of Pakistan even as intelligence officials highlighted that country’s role in these attacks. India’s Union Home Minister, the intrepid Shivraj Patil, had the good sense to stay away from TV cameras except for the mandatory couple of statements, which brings me to the point of this post.

A critical function of the human body is to be able to respond to the stimuli it is subjected to. Failure to respond to such stimuli leads to various conditions none of which are conducive to a state of good health. Various terms are used to describe such a condition with paralysis and coma being among them. Medical experts will be able to comment more accurately on this. But when such conditions affect the entire policy and decision making body of a government whose nation is surrounded by neighbours openly hostile to it you have the equivalent of a person in a vegetable state being subjected to repeated assaults of the vilest kind. This is the pitiful juncture at which India has been brought to by successive governments and where we now stand. The degeneration has only been accelerated by Manmohan Singh’s government. Faced with multiple opportunities in the form of bloody crises to become a leader who could march with his nation and it’s citizens on to the world stage with pride and honour, Manmohan Singh chose to lower himself to his lowest level of cowardice and incompetence. A leader whose most memorable response to the stimuli of multiple terrorist strikes on his watch has been to do an impression of a deer caught in the headlights, he has only succeeded in placing the citizens of India in harm’s way again. A Prime Minister who responds to terrorist attacks by refusing to sack his Home Minister because it will show his party to be weak in approaching elections is a gift from heaven for the masterminds of such attacks.

Manmohan Singh and Sonia Gandhi have sought to use these attacks on India to regain what they feel is their party’s rightful share of the Muslim votebank. The glee of the Pakistani establishment at this turn of events can scarcely be imagined and has only encouraged them to launch a full scale war on India. Make no mistake, treating these attacks as terrorist incidents would serve only to fool ourselves. Unanswered attacks on Delhi, Surat, Bangalore and on sovereign Indian territory in Afghanistan emboldened Pakistan to shut down India’s commercial capital and kill more than a hundred people over the course of a battle which lasted for 36 hours now. This is war by other means and the Indian government has presented Pakistan the perfect set of conditions with which that country can prosecute it’s offensive against India. An assurance of no retaliation, a weak Prime Minister, an incompetent Home Minister and all of this lorded over by an Italian to whom they answer. The policy of ‘death by a thousand cuts’ is back and has been re-tooled with new instruments at it’s disposal.

Will the Indian government respond to the latest attack forcefully to send out a message that such warfare against India is an activity with diminishing returns and a one-way ticket to meet the 72 virgins? I hope I am wrong and just being cynical but I wouldn’t bet on it.
*****

P.S.: What this attack has also done is exposed true colours and ignorance of a lot of people. Some of the responses to a line I borrowed from BR and used on my Facebook page.

DUDE, please! At the risk of attracting so many more comments... please stop. Not educated people also... This is exactly what goes wrong in flare-ups!!! Haven't you seen enough movies and history?
**
i'm not advocating the thought to be right or wrong in general. but at a moment like this.. where things can really really flare up.. i do feel its an incorrect sentiment for the hour
**

This is where my cynicism stems from, among other places.
Last edited by vishal on 28 Nov 2008 13:02, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

ldev wrote:R Kumar,

In your opinion Karkare's approach was casual. But while you and I and a whole lot of others on this forum are armchair experts and alive today, he and his men died defending a city they had sworn to protect probably at the same time that they were being vilified on this forum which is called the Bharat Rakshak Forum... isnt it ironic? The armchair rakshaks and the moderators were taunting the genuine rakshaks who were probably dying at that moment at the hands of the terrorists..... There are times when political differences should be put aside... this is one of them but it was certainly not in evidence in that thread.
ldev, don't you think YOU are being swayed by your personal prejudices ? which moderator was 'taunting the genuine rakshaks who were probably dying at that moment at the hands of the terrorists' ?

R_Kumar, kindly quit insinuating about personnel, incidents and procedures you know NOTHING about.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

RajeshA wrote: Suzanna ???? Do the HFLs have a semi-hidden X-tian/M-lim name tucked in somewhere?
If I'm not mistaken Madame Roy has always been a Christian.
And one thing I can't live down is the lady has a Bengali sounding name. I find that shameful as a Bengali.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

darshan wrote:Amit,

Kandahar issue and Parliament issues have been discussed here multiple times and I have no intent of discussing them. In my post, I have simply used word politician and voiced my opinion about coalition excuse. If NDA was current govt and using that excuse, i would have said the same thing. Until there is a clear evidence or admission by a current ruling PM or President, that coalition excuse does not hold much water.
Darshan,

I think there's no point in continuing this discussion since it's pretty apparent you don't need "clear evidence or admission" by anyone since you seem to have already made your opinion.

Thank you for the discussion so far.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

ARoy hates bengalis apparently, on account of her father.

amit, I don't agree about soft reaction wrt the kandahar incident, at least on the political front.
do tell me what else you think could have been done.

op parakram too was stood off for strategic military reasons, not political.
search for the 'cause' behind the cold-start doctrine please.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by negi »

ldev wrote:Two comments:
1. For the first time, an Indian government has NOT negotiated with terrorists. It also happens to be a Congress government. All previous governments including the BJP gave in to terrorist demands.
Yawn... there were no demands by the terrorists, this was purely an act of attracting international attention and damaging India's image.

As for Kangress well the less we speak of Gandhis and Nehru clan the better. Hack patooth. :evil:
2. The behaviour of posters in the first version of the Mumbai blast threads is nothing short of shameful. The insults and taunts hurled on the Maharashtra ATS (whose commander Hemant Karkare was killed within hours of those taunts being hurled on him here on this forum and while he and his men were dying for the common people they were protecting) and the Government of India left me speechless. Even more troubling was that those taunts relating to the Malegaon situation were egged on by Ramana and Shiv, a current senior moderator and a former mod which led other lesser lumnaries to follow up is nothing short of shameful IMO. I wonder if Ramana will consider it below his dignity to apologize to the Maharashtra ATS and its slain former commander Hemant Karkare or are the political biases overpowering?
Well first things first where were you when Malegaon blasts were being discussed ? ATS and its modus operandi has been questionable wrt to that particular case (specially selective leaking of the information to the media).

Now that ATS chief has been killed in action you are trying to score a brownie point.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by R_Kumar »

Rahul M wrote:
R_Kumar, kindly quit insinuating about personnel, incidents and procedures you know NOTHING about.
Please accept my apology.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Philip »

Mumbai under siege: A massive intelligence failure

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/mumba ... ../391431/

Shishir Gupta Posted: Nov 27, 2008 at 1618 hrs IST

Security agencies said that terrorists used Argees grenades and AK-47 rifles, which are signature weapons of pan-Islamic jehadi groups.

Related Stories:

Adani, Godhra MP have a close shave
Modi announces Rs 1 cr relief for terror victims
Mumbai on tenterhooks, awaits end to terror ordeal
Our nightmare, our wake-up call
Prayers across US for victims of Mumbai terror attacks
Walking the streets on Mumbai's night of fear

New Delhi :
In the wake of the massive intelligence failure on terrorist attack in Mumbai, Prime Minister Manmohan Singh on Thursday pulled up National Security Adviser M K Narayanan and Intelligence and security heads and asked him to prepare a full brief for the cabinet committee on security meeting this morning.
The Cabinet Committee on Security (CCS) met at 7 Race Course Road with the intelligence agencies sharing their assessment on the attack and the possible perpetrators. The meeting was attended by RAW Chief Ashok Chaturvedi and IB Chief P C Haldar. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh has already cancelled his elections meetings and is going to Mumbai of Friday.

At the time of going to press, the CCS was on and was to be followed up by a meeting of the full Cabinet.

Top Government sources said that the Prime Minister's concern was shared by Congress President Sonia Gandhi over the failure of the Intelligence agencies to either predict or prevent the attack.

from the conjectures, the internal security establishment has little idea of the group behind the massacre and the conspiracy behind it except that it reveals a Lashkar-e-Toiba stamp with certain similarities to the 2001 Parliament attack. It appears that the terrorists used Argees grenades and AK-47 rifles, which are signature weapons of pan-Islamic jehadi groups.
While preparations are on at the Raisina Hill to prepare for the Cabinet meeting, the heat is on both Home Minister Shivraj Patil and M.K. Narayanan, known loyalists of the Nehru-Gandhi family. The Cabinet meeting is expected to be a heated affair.

While the Cabinet will condole the death of ATS chief Hemant Karkare and other policemen who made the supreme sacrifice, the allies will put pressure on the PM to get his internal security house in order.

Although Maharashtra Deputy Chief Minister R.R. Patil has gone on record saying that they had received no intelligence inputs from Gujarat, Ahmedabad, on the contrary, says that specific inputs about Mumbai being on the terrorists' radar were given on the basis of interrogation of the Mumbai module linked with those involved in the July 26 Ahmedabad blasts.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Nayak »

Stinging article on irresponsibility and incompetence brazenly exposed by the media.
http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-154869

Amidst the disastrous terrorist attack that took Mumbai, the commercial hub of India hostage to fear and uncertainty in one of its worst encounters ever, one big question that looms large is have we learnt our lessons yet? After so many past incidents, so many RED Alerts, be it the media, the government, the law and order or the security system, a question we need to ask is, "Do we consider ourselves professionally mature and competent to handle such crisis situations?"
"Media ethics and responsibility in covering sensitive crisis situation has always been a suspect in India", says media consultant, Mandira Menon. "If crisis management is to be taken as a defining feature of contemporary governance, we can only bemoan the state of affairs we are in". According to her the media has not only yet again gone ballistic adding to the confusion, but, in its exuberance to come out on top of other media channels, has acted in a highly irresponsible manner. An Indian correspondent for BBC even appealed for "international help" at this juncture "which is totally uncalled for".

From a purely strategic point of view, according to an ex commanding officer of the counter terrorist outfit of NSG, who prefers to remain anonymous, "A live telecast of such a critical situation totally undermines a sensitive mission of this kind." It undermines the success of the mission, the safety of the hostages, the safety of the operatives, the safety of the installation and last but not the least the security and prestige of the nation in handling situations like this. "The line of justification that says - I have the right to know, is not acceptable at such times". Random media coverage instead of helping can actually flare up a crisis situation or let it go totally out of hand.

"How can the media be allowed to give a minute by minute account of what's happened all over, who all have been killed, where all the terrorists succeeded, etc. This is just what the terrorists need - information of their successes, information of what is going on and, most of all, a morale booster to their nerves. Surely, the media are on their side!!" according Col PKS Bedi, a retired army officer who has been through military operations in Sri Lanka and Kashmir.

"There is a moral and ethical need for honest reporting and media coverage of violence has left out mass far more alert to the threats we live through everyday", according to Mandira, "however crisis reporting is a specialized area which has to be dealt with utmost seriousness ." The media cameras pick up and show where all the security forces are deployed, what they are doing, what avenues they are blocking, which roof-tops they are manning with sharp-shooters - thanks to the media, they gave all this to the terrorists, who can now plan their next move!

Public leaders play an important role in safeguarding society from the adverse consequences of crisis. According to experts these are well laid out under three stages "the incubation stage, the onset, and the aftermath". "Crisis leadership involves five critical tasks: sense making, decision making, meaning making, terminating, and learning - where "meaning making" refers to crisis management as political communication".

"It is indeed shocking that the Home Minister has been giving full details of the security plans to the world at large: where the commandos were coming from; what time they would leave; by when they would be deployed et all. This is preposterous. Surely, the terrorists in the hotel itself would be smirking at their good fortune to be given on a platter what they would have otherwise not known - all thanks to our immature, selfish and brash media" according to Bedi.

"How can an operation by security forces succeed if their very movements are known to the terrorists?," is the obvious question mooted . "It doesn't look like the government officials know anything about crisis reporting either" according to Mandira . "On the contrary they are easy pawns to performance mania that puts constant pressure through media to rustle up quick solutions to critical situations", according to the senior NSG Official.

Meanwhile within hours of the attack, 3 top notch officers, Anti-Terrorism Squad chief Hemant Karkare, encounter specialist Vijay Salaskar, and Additional Commissioner (East) Ashok Kamte are all killed in the gun battle. With due respect to the immense sacrifice made by them, the public who had been watching the drama wants to know, why should they be hanging around without protective gears? "Is this professionalism?" asks Sujeet Das.

Senior officials of NSG feel, "The media should not be there at all. There should have been a media blank out by now and jammers used to jam all communication." There is a lack of government will according to them, who are appalled to see that none of the areas have been cordoned yet with ropes or barbed wires, "What if some of these terrorists move out at media representatives. They are all over the place and easiest to impersonate." If at all there has to be a time gap of at least an hour in relaying of live images.

The other glaring lacuna, in this national crisis, is the question of accountability. Be it the NGS or the Commandos, or the Rapid Deployment Force or Police or ATS or whatever, there seems to be little professional coordination. "Who is in control? Who answers to whom? Who takes orders from whom? Do we have any system in place? Any SOP (Standard Operating Procedure)? Surely, there must be ONE single Commander, ONE controlling agency, only then can there be any semblance of an orderly conduct of operation", according to Bedi.

Though there are crisis committees in place on paper, the fact is that they rarely meet, rarely practice and as a result rarely get their act in place when a real crisis takes place. "In a misplaced zeal to guard their own turf the police takes upon themselves tasks that are meant for specialized troops", which can only increase the casualty, as seen in this particular situation.

"We live in the midst of alarms, anxiety beclouds the future; we expect some new disaster with each newspaper we read, President Abraham Lincoln had said establishing the hideous nexus between politics and crisis. The recent blasts in Mumbai that took the entire city hostage to fear and uncertainty "compels one sit up and assess the situation" from this very vantage point that saw security aspects of a nation being compromised due to total unprofessionalism.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

Rahul M wrote:ARoy hates bengalis apparently, on account of her father.

amit, I don't agree about soft reaction wrt the kandahar incident, at least on the political front.
do tell me what else you think could have been done.

op parakram too was stood off for strategic military reasons, not political.
search for the 'cause' behind the cold-start doctrine please.

Rahul,

Boss if you read my series of posts you'll note that my bringing up Kandahar and Parakaram was more rhetorical in nature.

However, I think an effort could have been made to stop the plane in Amritsar and that was dreadful lapse in security.

Here's the WiKi entry:
After landing at Amritsar, the flight crew were hoping that they will get some assistance and the hijacking would end. They asked for a sniper or a sharpshooter to go along with the browser and shoot at the tires to disable the aircraft.[3] But, for unknown reasons that didn't happen. The local forces at Amritsar were told to wait for the National Security Guards.

The hijackers asked for the plane to be refueled. At first the Indian Government did not agree, but after the hijackers stabbed a passenger named Rupin Katyal, they agreed to refuel the plane in order to gain some time to formulate a strategy. However, for reasons unknown, the plane was not refueled. The hijackers threatened the crew that they would kill everyone on board if the captain did not take off within 30 seconds. The Indian special force National Security Guards were nowhere to be seen. Later on it was revealed, much to the embarrassment of Indian Government, that the elite commando units were stuck in traffic near Amritsar[citation needed]. Nevertheless, the Airbus A300 took off for Lahore with almost no fuel.

Also, if I recall correctly the government gave in on account of the very visible (via TV channels) protests organised by the relatives of the victims especially after Rupin Katyal's ghastly murder.

I know it was a Catch 22 situation for the government then and I sympathize with them. However when you consider in hindsight how many hundreds of Indians died because Masood Azhar was released then you'd probably come to the conclusion, as I have, it would have been better to let go of all the passengers instead of letting this bas###d go off scot free. And what was Jaswant Singh thinking when he personally escorted the terrorists to Kandahar, what kind of message did it send out to the world. The Indian FM going with hands folded to hijackers?

Most countries in the world have a zero tolerance to hostage-demand situation. India has paid a heavy price for not having one till now, it seems.

I feel the BJP would have acted in a different manner if it hadn't been politically weak on account of a coalition government. That's what I've been trying to hammer at: coalitions make governments weak. I haven't being trying to say UPA strong, NDA weak. However, a lot of folks are saying NDA strong, UPA weak.

As for Parakram, Cold Start was a result of the failure of Parakaram to get our objectives? However, my question is was Parakaram a kind of knee jerk reaction - a sort of got to do something to show our manhood kind of move?

If the intention was never to attack then why do it in the first place. The Pakis think even that was victory for its martial forces and Musharraf said so several times.

Anyway I think we shouldn't discuss all this even as the terror war goes on in Mumbai. My last post on this issue.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Nayak »


Mumbai attacks: British cops to fly to India to join hunt for terrorists

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-wo ... -20930443/

Nov 28 2008

GORDON Brown ordered British police to Mumbai yesterday in the wakeof the terror attacks.

The officers are expected to help in the forensic searches of the hotels attacked and to try to track down the terror masterminds. :roll: :roll: :roll:

The PM vowed: "We will do whatever is necessary to protect British citizens and ensure the world is a safer place.

" This is a horrific incident which has shocked and outraged people around the world." Tory leader David Cameron said: "We must stand together absolutely steadfast, saying these terrorists will never win."

Foreign Secretary David Miliband condemned the "inhuman and indiscriminate attack on people of all races and all religions".

He said it bore some of the hallmarks of al-Qaeda but stressed it was too early to know if groups affiliated to the Islamist terror network were involved.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Nesoj »

NO purely political discussions allowed on this thread.
Last edited by Rahul M on 28 Nov 2008 13:48, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT post.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by negi »

Amit sahab in a country blessed with chootiyas since independence Kandahar incident is insignificant , the way partition took place, Kashmir got annexed and followed by the 62 fiasco .
incidents like Kandahar or even the present attacks mean nothing.

Its very easy to do a post mortem and say why didn't someone puncture the tyres of the ill fated aircraft , infact who the **** allowed guns onboard the aircraft.

We can similarly say what was Kangress's motive behind funneling all state machinery into Malegaon case while they saved likes of Afzal who mind you has been found guilty by the supreme court.

And btw wasn't this govt headed by your Phabourite PM supposed to share with Pakistan the details of the Malegaon and Smajhauta blasts, along with re starting the samjhauta express and easing the immigration between the two countries.

NDA might have been ineffective while tackling terrorism , but UPA ofcourse being a better party has given to the world 'Indigenous Hindu terrorism' and managed to prove that latter has been responsible for all the blasts in country .
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by R_Kumar »

NO purely political discussions allowed on this thread.
Last edited by Rahul M on 28 Nov 2008 13:47, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT post.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by RajeshA »

On listening to CNN Pakistan Correspondent Reza Sayah, one gets an idea of what the whole Pakistani PR looks like:

The pSecs, Dhimmis, US State Dept., Indian National Congress, Pakistani Govt., Pakistani Media, Intl. Media outlets are all in concert and trying to portray this with catch phrases:

1. blame game
2. nuclear neighbors


They are even strongly criticizing when MMS said the attackers have come from a foreign country.

As a small practical matter, we should record these psyops.

1. which outlets are inviting which Indian-baiters for interviews.
2. which catch phrases are being used to dilute Pakistani involvement.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

Negi Sahab,

What exactly are you trying to say with a comment like this:
And btw wasn't this govt headed by your Phabourite PM supposed to share with Pakistan the details of the Malegaon and Smajhauta blasts, along with re starting the samjhauta express and easing the immigration between the two countries.
I hope you’re not trying to do a flame bait.

If you had cared to read my posts I’ve said more than once, the UPA’s handling of terror has been pathetic.

The only point I’ve been trying to hammer is that whether it’s the UPA or NDA, both have been hobbled by the very nature of coalition politics which gives every piddly little party, like for example the Revolutionary Socialist party of India, and thugs like Mulla Yadav, a veto on Government policy.

If you have issues with that please talk about that and not about your “Detested” PM and my "Phabourite" PM. Otherwise I'll have to start to think that the adjective you put in your first sentence is driving you to do so.

And by the way I know we’ve been blessed with chootiyas because every Indian thinks the Indian next to him is one and he never looks into a mirror.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Nesoj »

No purely political discussions here.
Last edited by Rahul M on 28 Nov 2008 13:46, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT post.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by Rahul M »

naveen, we can do well without ascribing POVs to people. please don't let your good sense fall by the wayside.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by negi »

Kahan ho Amit da.. coalition politics came only in the 90's until then it was Kangress all the way, for a national party if they did not get their manifesto right even after 3-4 decades in power then there is something seriously wrong with that party.

Btw you know I know... that mirror comment does not make sense in the context . :)
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by R_Kumar »

edited. see above.
Last edited by Rahul M on 28 Nov 2008 13:50, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT post.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by R_Kumar »

By the way do people have any other solution other than nuking TSP? I don't think going war with TSP is a smart idea at this time. But hey I am not an expert.
Please discuss it here.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by amit »

negi wrote:Kahan ho Amit da.. coalition politics came only in the 90's until then it was Kangress all the way, for a national party if they did not get their manifesto right even after 3-4 decades in power then there is something seriously wrong with that party.

Btw you know I know... that mirror comment does not make sense in the context . :)

Sure Naveen coalition politics came in the 1990s but actually, for all practical purposes it came much earlier in 1977 - the Janata Party was nothing but a coalition party, otherwise it's hard to explain how Vajpayee could be in the same party as Moraji Desai and Raaj Narain.

But before that we've had Indira Gandhi who probably had more cojones than all the other PMs put together. And she had the freedom of action. And hence the high point of 1971 and the low of 1975.

I feel neither would have happened if she had been hobbled by coalition politics.

Hope that clears up matters.

And the problem with Indians is not that they are chootiyas, rather the problem is only 1.5 Indians among the one billion or so on this planet are intelligent.

Let me explain.

Each Indian thinks he's the most perceptive and brilliant person on the planet (the 1 and only). However, intelligence needs to be shared. However, the guy this brilliant person cares to speak to must also be intelligent (as otherwise why talk?) to understand. But obviously he can't be as intelligent, no the second person is only half as intelligent (and knowledgeable) and that's where you get the 0.5.

All the other aam junta who is not part of the conversation are dumb idiots (chootiyas) and these chootiyas are constant referred to and uselessness they are, are the main topic of conversation between this 1 and 0.5.

Cheers!
Last edited by amit on 28 Nov 2008 14:08, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Response to Terrorism

Post by negi »

amit wrote: And the problem with Indians is not that they are chootiyas, rather the problem is only 1.5 Indians among the one billion or so on this planet are intelligent.

Let me explain.

Each Indian thinks he's the most perceptive and brilliant person on the planet (the 1 and only). However, intelligence needs to be shared. However, the guy this brilliant person cares to speak to must also be intelligent (as otherwise why talk?) to understand. But obviously he can't be as intelligent, no the second person is only half as intelligent (and knowledgeable) and that's where you get the 0.5.

All the other aam junta who is not part of the conversation are dumb idiots (chootiyas).

Cheers!
Intelligence is not an issue boss.. the issue is we tend to COMPROMISE we have been doing this since 47 . Today situation has deteriorated to a level where we are ready to compromise human lives too and this has manifested itself into our tolerance for terror. Ofcourse GOI and PMO then get to applaud the junta's resolve and the speed with which Mumbai will/has recovered from the blasts.

Btw Naveen :shock:
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