Indian Army Discussion

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 29 Mar 2009 06:34

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Mar 2009 10:11

ok an update on the Kupwara encounter

The SF guys did not get ambushed in the conventional sense of the word ambush. They died in intense firefights with a large bunch of very well trained and equipped terrorists.

One also has to understand that the Haphruda forest is a deadly terrain. It has also been a bit of a bad place for the SF. Both Sudhir Kumar and Arun Jasrotia got killed in action in the same area. The 1 Para SF team was asked to go in and flush these guys out which opened them up to an element of risk. with the weather, terrain (rocks, nooks, etc) - the jihadis were able to use it for cover and open fire. There were very intense firefights and the SF men died in these firefights.

As you see in the transcript of the terrorists talking to their handler in the mumbai incident - these guys have been trained in what to expect.

and yes a few piglets are suspected to have got away.

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 29 Mar 2009 12:29

Surya,

Arun Jasrotia from what I heard actually was not KIA but had been extremely badly wounded in his encounter and brutal hand-to-hand combat.....in fact he was completely paralyzed and despite that he survived for a while before he lost the fight in hospital.

9 Para Cdo, Maj. Sudhir Kumar Walia and his buddy Hav. Kheem Singh, both died in the other encounter.

From your sources, did you get any indication that perhaps the SF team got caught in the open by the terrorists hiding under cover. In the first incident where the SF officer died, some reports were stating that terrorists had fired upon them from a higher elevation. Also any indications of how many men each of the SF teams had been comprised of. On Saturday and on Monday, 4 personnel were KIA each day...kind of got me wondering if the SF were operating in 4 or 8 man teams.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Mar 2009 13:19

The forest in and around Kupwara and the Lolab is dense and the slopes are steep. Therefore, as my experience in this area goes, a clear field of fire as it would be in the plains or even hills where the forest cover is sparse, is difficult to obtain.

When an ambush site is selected, all considerations of security is also taken into consideration and usually higher ground is selected on the route that the enemy is expected to traverse.

As I visualise, the terrorists followed the drill to break the ambush, by charging into the ambush all weapons blazing. Hence, the casualties on both sides. The terrorist, even though in greater numbers, were in the 'open' and so they bought more casualties.

The route through Lolab is one of the favourites of the terrorists infiltrating for good reasons!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Mar 2009 14:09

Very unfortuante.

Why should regimental funds and the Army Commander's fund be used for what should be a normal govt issue item?!

Extraordinary that the Defence Budget does not cater for this, especially in a country that is Forever in Operations!

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Mar 2009 14:17

Surya-ji,
Any info on the Gurez encounter?

I assume SF is involved again due to the encounter starting on basis of specific intel inputs..

Raj Malhotra · Post by **Raj Malhotra** » 29 Mar 2009 15:07

Even with prior information, if we loose 8 men then they are one too many. No dis-respect to soldiers but i wonder additional resources and equipment would have helped matters?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Mar 2009 15:13

Raj Malhotra wrote:Even with prior information, if we loose 8 men then they are one too many. No dis-respect to soldiers but i wonder additional resources and equipment would have helped matters?

Additional equipment or resources cannot change the tactical situation that presented itself. They could be force multipliers at best.

As far as the casualties are concerned, it all depends on how the situation unfolded. Even the best of plans with the best of soldiers and with the best of equipment cannot guarantee that all will be perfect.

Luck also plays a role in combat!

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Mar 2009 18:13

Raja

I know Jasrotia was wounded but eventually he died - ie. pretty much the same - it all started with Haphruda forest(Lolab). Poor guy was badly shot up and its a tribute to his remarkable will to fight that he even made it to the hospital and fought for a few days. Even grizzled veterans were choked up on seeing him.

THe SF were not lying in wait for an ambush inside the forest- they were asked to move in to flush them out - so the jihadiscould hide in the terrain and spring out here and there. Bad weather, Bad visibility and terrain made it worse. And luck seemed to have been a big factor too.

No none got caught in the open
- there is no open area
- they are SF - so they are quite cautious in not getting caught in one withering cross fire. It happened in ones and 2s

sum (no need for the ji )
No news on Gurez

Please note the SF is overstretched - and now since the Govt made a bravado announcement of NSG hubs and then realised they could notdo this - a silly process has started which is going to be weaken the SF.

The damn police forces need to spend money and creatre SWAT teams as first step - but are crying at the expense involved.

Lets see where the Mah police ends up with their plan

sum · Post by **sum** » 29 Mar 2009 21:02

Seems to be absolute black out on the Gurez encounter (where again 20 pigs were holed up after specific intel was received).

Wonder what happened?

Hope they didnt escape.

Baljeet · Post by **Baljeet** » 29 Mar 2009 21:11

Raj Malhotra wrote:Even with prior information, if we loose 8 men then they are one too many. No dis-respect to soldiers but i wonder additional resources and equipment would have helped matters?

Raj
IA losses more men to excessive bleeding. As mentioned before, we don't have any field kits to stop the bleeding and by the time a wounded warrior is given medical care its too late. we as a nation lack support infrastrucutre. What I am failing to understand is, if we are sending a platoon-company for operation, how come our officers don't have some helos on ready to launched within minutes to evac the wounded warrior. We can customize helos with thermal imaging, IR, and advanced radars that will provide better info to our ground troops. These helos flying 1000ft above ground can provide fire and recon support.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 29 Mar 2009 21:24

Baljeet

The reality is that we do nto have anywhere near the numbers of helos \UAVs required.

Look at the area, the number of men we have and look at our hardware totals - its puny.

But the medical kit is unforgiveable.

I had discussed all the advancements made in battlefield medicine in Iraq with my friends and told them to push the damn higher ups to get them - but as you can see the numbers are pathetic.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 29 Mar 2009 22:12

Baljeet wrote: IA losses more men to excessive bleeding. As mentioned before, we don't have any field kits to stop the bleeding and by the time a wounded warrior is given medical care its too late. we as a nation lack support infrastrucutre. What I am failing to understand is, if we are sending a platoon-company for operation, how come our officers don't have some helos on ready to launched within minutes to evac the wounded warrior. We can customize helos with thermal imaging, IR, and advanced radars that will provide better info to our ground troops. These helos flying 1000ft above ground can provide fire and recon support.

Baljeet sadly, although Quikclot in a field kit is effective - it is useless in internal injuries because the material has to be poured directly on to the large blood vessels that are haemorrhaging. Usually in serious chest and abdominal injuries the bullet enters making a small hole and tears open huge blood vessels deep in the body which cannot be reached without formal surgery. In such cases a man will bleed to death no matter what if the vessel is large enough. The kit is only effective if the bleeding vessel is visible near the surface - such as a wound in a limb.

However quick evacuation and treatment within the first hour or less can save lives. I would love to see casevac helos available.

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 29 Mar 2009 23:31

So do we not use CASEVAC helos at all? The wounded are transported only by land?

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 29 Mar 2009 23:56

Sir, we do use CASEVAC helos all the time. Depending upon the emergency and technical ability of the choppers, right from Mi-17s to Cheetah. Before we jump the gun, please understand that for CASEVAC to happen a lot of parameters have to be met. The actual location, weather, visibility, the technical limits of the machine itself etc. Chances are that one may need to move the casualties to a location from where the choppers can pick them up. In some cases it migh help while in others the WIA may not be able to make it.

We seem to be groping in dark and due to lack of information (except some posted by Satya) making our own theories.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 30 Mar 2009 00:26

Shiv,

Can you tell us about the Surgical Staple, Surgical Clip, dermal adhesive etc and their use?

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 30 Mar 2009 02:26

The more important point is:
Is the Indian Army training its young field doctors specifically in the now revolutionized battlefield emergency management techniques? Are the field units equipped - no cost spared - to protect the soldier's lives.
There is a lot of difference between a moderately equipped and a very highly equipped and trained team of doctors and nursing orderlies.

Katare · Post by **Katare** » 30 Mar 2009 02:45

Kashmir is colder place so I guess hand held thermal imagers should work very nicely there. They are expensive but they would save lives by locating pigs at standoff ranges for hunting parties. BFSR-SR could also be effective, we need to have technology to ensure that we have all of the pigs accounted for in realtime on a grid until they are eleminated one by one.

Samay · Post by **Samay** » 30 Mar 2009 02:57

Many Rashtriya Rifles units have begun diverting regimental funds, collected from profits made from canteen sales, to enable soldiers to rapidly treat multiple wound sites and various wound types with a single packet of material.

The kit gives precious evacuation time to wounded soldiers before they can be treated at a hospital. The army has admitted that there is no substitute for QuikClot because of its exceptional haemorrhage-control features.

“We regularly send jawans to New Delhi to buy the kits from the only distributor in India. However, due to paucity of funds, we barely order two or three kits at a time.

oh what a gross out,

really it feels that IA is fighting on its own with enemies and political-ignorance of defence forces!!
what an apathy

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 30 Mar 2009 06:28

Army chief to visit France
http://www.ptinews.com/pti\ptisite.nsf/ ... enDocument

Army chief cancels visit to Chhattisgarh counter-terrorism college

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 31 Mar 2009 00:35

^^Can BR initiate a drive to collect fund and have Sindhu or some one else in Delhi buy the kit for IA? We can use 'Donate to BR' facility to collect funds (paypal) and Ray Saheb, Mandeep can facilitate the actual handing over. Will be a nice gesture, if BF admin agree and they don't have any issues with Tax/Forex etc.

Meanwhile..

2 Militants, Soldier Killed in Kashmir Gunfights

Srinagar, March 30: Two militants and an Indian soldier were killed in separate gunfights in Kashmir on Monday.

A police spokesman said that the Indian army and policemen on specific information about the presence of militants laid siege around the Moshwara village in Kellar in South Kashmir on Monday morning. "While the soldiers were conducting combing and search operations, they came under a volume of fire from the militants. The fire was returned by the soldiers, triggering an encounter. In the ensuing gunfight, which lasted for four hours, two militants were killed," he said.

The identity of the slain militants and the outfit to which they owe allegiance could not be known.

The police spokesman said that an Indian army soldier, who was critically injured in a gunfight with militants at the Kamla forests in South Kashmir a few days back, has succumbed to his injuries. He identified the dead soldier as Rumpum Goji.

Fayaz Wani reports on life in Srinagar, Kashmir.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 31 Mar 2009 00:41

sivabala wrote:I wish DRDO reverse engineer this quick clot rather than spending more time on how to make idlies and vadas.

India (and China) are pharmaceutical giants. The Indian drug companies will make affordable alternatives sooner than we think. GOI needs to keep the product patent laws intact and not bow to western pressures.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 31 Mar 2009 00:55

Now if this discourse in BRF on the last page has not set alarm bells ringing at army headquarters already - what with civilians and people from overseas 'collecting' funds to supply some article to an army unit.

Not allowed at all. The Officers commanding such unit will be in trouble already I tell you.

How did this ever leak out? It has potential security implications.

Heads will roll and things will go back to being the same - not I hope.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Apr 2009 02:41

Mandeep.

Satisfaction is one thing and shaking and shaming those in power is another thing.

Satisfaction is confined to a specific lot of chaps. The others will continue to suffer!

But shouldn't we wake them up - those that decide the life and death of these soldiers. One does not have to go on a dharna to prove a point, but one can always shame people into action - that is if they are not totally shameless!

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Apr 2009 02:56

Soldiers bleeding to death due to lack of a kit which costs mere Rs.3000 is really pathetic when we are spending billions of $$s on buying the latest in American toys

. If there is a BR admin/well known BR personality like shiv etc. who is willing to coordinate this effort, I am absolutely willing to put my money where my mouth is. Someone mentioned the B-R donations route via PayPal. This sounds like a good plan....B-R admins any comments on its feasibility?

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 01 Apr 2009 03:13

Please count me in for contributions towards this effort and btw Ray Sir
"it's about making the other piglets die .."

negi · Post by **negi** » 01 Apr 2009 08:55

Hi Sidhu

Just sent you an email .

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Apr 2009 09:01

suryag wrote:Please count me in for contributions towards this effort and btw Ray Sir
"it's about making the other piglets die .."

True, less trained soldiers of our killed, the better is our capability to take these terrorists and their handlers on!

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 01 Apr 2009 09:13

Can't help thinking that this encounter in Kupwara prevented a chhatisinghpora type attack. One such incident usually takes place whenever India and the US are about to meet so that the meeting takes place in the background of tensions in Kashmir.
As expected MMS and BO are supposed to meet.

p_saggu · Post by **p_saggu** » 01 Apr 2009 09:18

Those guys in MOD are sullen because they joined the government for reasons that were somewhat unmentionable. Now they get 'shunted' to the Ministry of Defence, where only the minister makes the moolah, these foreign suppliers don't consider them at all.
Whereas if they were in some other ministry the Indian suppliers would be paying them quite liberally to move the file from one desk to the other.

I am not convinced that this breed can actually be shamed by donating stuff in Delhi. If they do ultimately accept donations (I completely doubt they can ever) it will NEVER reach battlefield in the jungles of far off Kashmir. Too many impediments on the way - personal will to do something out of the ordinary being the biggest that I can think of.

The only way to 'shame' these people is with a stick - what we call the stick of democracy - DDM.
Watch the flurry of activity if one report appears in some mainstream media agency. (By the way something like this will give endless cannon fodder to the likes of Barkha Dutt or Sagarka Ghose - give it a try)

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Apr 2009 09:32

It was a 'flushing out' operation and those who are flushing out are in the open and searching, while those who are being flushed out are using the ground, taking cover and watching the moves of those who are coming to flush out.

Therefore, those who are out in the open, no matter how well they are trained, will buy more casualties!

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Apr 2009 09:39

p_saggu wrote:Those guys in MOD are sullen because they joined the government for reasons that were somewhat unmentionable. Now they get 'shunted' to the Ministry of Defence, where only the minister makes the moolah, these foreign suppliers don't consider them at all.
Whereas if they were in some other ministry the Indian suppliers would be paying them quite liberally to move the file from one desk to the other.

I am not convinced that this breed can actually be shamed by donating stuff in Delhi. If they do ultimately accept donations (I completely doubt they can ever) it will NEVER reach battlefield in the jungles of far off Kashmir. Too many impediments on the way - personal will to do something out of the ordinary being the biggest that I can think of.

The only way to 'shame' these people is with a stick - what we call the stick of democracy - DDM.
Watch the flurry of activity if one report appears in some mainstream media agency. (By the way something like this will give endless cannon fodder to the likes of Barkha Dutt or Sagarka Ghose - give it a try)

The bureaucrats may not respond as desired, but the Army had better or else there will be great resentment, which they surely would not relish! And in these matters, what the Army does is most important!

Even the very thread if informed to Sagarika Ghosh will have the effect. Any idea how she is contacted?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Apr 2009 11:24

RayC wrote:Even the very thread if informed to Sagarika Ghosh will have the effect.

Are you sure? On the contrary it might make madame Ghosh ask enchanted questions why are Indian citizens/NRIs sending money to buy blood clot kits for evil Hindu soldiers who are only brutes capable of raping millions of innocent Kashmiris every day!

She might question why we are considering crossing this Laxman Rekha.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 01 Apr 2009 11:47

Bose,
Ghosh is a chance I might take!

Mandeep · Post by **Mandeep** » 01 Apr 2009 13:35

I agree with the Brigadier that those in authority who overlook the needs of frontline fighting troops.That is an ongoing struggle. But I still feel that rather than risk an officious, dog in the manger, obstructive bureaucratic type torpedoing one's best laid plans, one should go ahead and supply whatever is needed directly to the units concerned.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 01 Apr 2009 15:56

Tanaji wrote:I humbly suggest that the mods

Make a separate thread on the donation of QuickClot kits

Make it a sticky

Include all relevant details on what is being bought, whom to contact for sending money etc (need not be real names, at least a valid email address that when contacted would give real details )

Should include modes of payment especially for overseas contributors
The above will facilitate a larger response. One other suggestion is keeping the others updated as to how many kits were actually bought, and were delivered.

I second that. Need volunteers from India (Delhi - better) to organise and receive funds.

ASPuar · Post by **ASPuar** » 01 Apr 2009 16:39

Ill volunteer. Im in Delhi.

kittoo · Post by **kittoo** » 01 Apr 2009 17:06

sunilUpa wrote:
Tanaji wrote:I humbly suggest that the mods

Make a separate thread on the donation of QuickClot kits

Make it a sticky

Include all relevant details on what is being bought, whom to contact for sending money etc (need not be real names, at least a valid email address that when contacted would give real details )

Should include modes of payment especially for overseas contributors
The above will facilitate a larger response. One other suggestion is keeping the others updated as to how many kits were actually bought, and were delivered.
I second that. Need volunteers from India (Delhi - better) to organise and receive funds.

I third that (if that means anything)

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 01 Apr 2009 22:41

Tanaji....good idea. In fact, we already have an example of such a sticky, for the PRC Kirkee tea packaging stuff. Making it as a sticky will definitely get more eye balls. I am being optimistic but in fact if this blood clot kit donation initiative works out well perhaps we can do some more in future esp. since we have people like Mandeep/Ray sir who are in touch with the units and can have a good idea on what is needed. Donating for such causes (whether time, money or goods) is worthy and after all the reason we all came to B-R was because we like the Armed forces and care about them.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 01 Apr 2009 22:51

RayC wrote:It was a 'flushing out' operation and those who are flushing out are in the open and searching, while those who are being flushed out are using the ground, taking cover and watching the moves of those who are coming to flush out.

Therefore, those who are out in the open, no matter how well they are trained, will buy more casualties!

RayC Sir,

This question might have been raised in these forums before. So, apologies if its already been answered. In this operation, it seems like time, intel & the element of surprise was on our side. So, given that a "flushing out" operation is disadvantageous to the attacker (in terms of casualties), could we have done anything different to minimize casualties?

Take the case of air power, in particular. In COIN operations, we hardly hear about air power being employed. What are the reasons for its non-use? Is it logistics - terrain, visibility etc (or) is it mindset (COIN is an Army problem, not an AirForce one).

I understand the infeasibility of AF usage in populated areas - was that a constraint here?

Wasnt time on our side - could there have been political pressures to get the job done "quickly" however unwise that might have been?

I am not dissing the Army - far from it. Just inquiring if we could have done anything different.