Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Post Reply
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by somnath »

The US angle is quite tenous, IMHO..What will really give "relief" to the Paki establishment is the following:

1. Thinning of troops from the LoC.
2. Reduction of our presence in Afghanistan
3. Some sort of dialogue towards Kashmir

All the above would encourage Pak to move troops from the Eastern border to the West, thereby helping Operation Khanjar...None of these have been achieved in SeS - in fact Kashmir isnt even mentioned - probably the first time in Indo-Pak joint statements? (I might be wrong, but rare enough)..

Therefore, the US "pressure", and the PM "crawling" has not really come about, has it?

There is no doubt that the formulation of the statement has been puzzling - but really in material terms nothing has been "given up"..Heck, even the talks, that we were supposed to have "delinked from terrorism" are going to take place on the sole issue of terrorism..
John Snow wrote:Aiyar is chamcha of higest order. thats a spin that has lost its turn
Well yes, he is a paid Gandhi family retainer, but one with quite acerbic views of his own (mostly widely to the left of MMS!)..I remember his famous quote when media asked him for his reaction to the nuke deal - "I am external to the affairs of this govt, therefore I am the external affairs minister"!!
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Philip »

The British establishment left India in total exasperation unable to handle the "Half-naked Fakir" who dared to meet their king in his loincloth.When asked afterwards what he thought about the king ,Gandhi famously remarked that "he had on enough clothes for both of us"!

Therefore,unable to deal with India's moral superiority-Nehru,remember they locked him up for 11 years (talk about Aung San Su Kyi);as India's first PM had tremendous moral authority respected globally despite our military prowess then being miniscule but for manpower.Non-violent,"Socialist" India was most unlikely to support the west's adventurism and fight for them in the Cold War.It was therefore neccessary to separate the martial Muslims from India to further their interests in a separate state where they could remain forever "yours obediently",willing to do their master's bidding for the customary scraps from the high table.Pakistan was to be the US's springboard into Central Asia,a bulwark against the Russians and the Chinese.It is ironic that those days India had far more respect around the world than it has today where a nuclear and military giant acts like a timid rabbit.Unfortunately,our neglect of military pwoer enabled the Chinese to teach us a signal lesson which we thought was well learnt,but for the timidity of the current leadership.

The track record of Pakistan ever since partition has been one of animosity and hatred towards India.Its liberal western educated elite whom Jinnah represented and hoped would usher in a sub-continental version of Turkey,are now in a microscopic minority.Most have fled to Blighty and other western haunts .The military in Pak have like cancer spread their tentacles of hate over most of the structure of the state and have effectively brainwashed the majority of the populace that India is an eternal enemy and that Kashmir has to be regained by force or treachery.Baluchistan and Indian "involvement" is being now handed over to them thanks to MMS,as a legitimate reason for their India-directed terrorism.

However,the undying hatred of Pak towards India has been realised by certain western states,as the Brit. delegation just observed,as being a key factor in the collapsing entity that Pak is today.
It is astonishing that our friends abroad are talking about Pak's inability to change mentality when our dear King-of-Capitulation,is willing to trust Pak despite the mountainous evidence to the contrary.The west is thus trying to make the weaker of the two nations succumb to its interests.If terrorist,malevolent,diabolic Pak is unwilling to change mentality,then the weaker party,India, must neccessarily give way to Pak and compromise on Pak's terms,in order that Pak stops anti-western terrorism conducted form the safety of its territory.That is the price that Pak is demanding from the west and India is being armtwisted to sucumb under the weakest regime ever in our country's history,the US making full use of "Surrender Singh" at the helm of affairs.

While all this is going on on our western front,on the eastern front too the situation is darkening by the day.Apart from China's perfidy and masterplan to teach India another military lesson and bite off a chunk of Arunachal Pradesh,it is surreptitiously trying to turn Burma into another nuclear weapons state throough its proxy NoKo.We on BR warned of this development a few years ago-that Burma would harbour N-ambitions and China would encourage and sponsor it through a rogue state.China wants to have three "rogue states " (NoKo,Pak and Burma)as its "all-weather" friends,all with N-weaponry,to be able to defeat its enemies and rivals using these proxies.

China's highway through J&K is a prelude to it in the future transferring land forces into Baluchistan/Gwadar and approach the Gulf squatting in Paki territory just as the US is doing in Afghanisatn.Baluchistan is therefore becoming a most vital strategic spot in the region by the day,with very high stakes involved in who controls Pak's largest province.If Pak collapses and Baluchistan becomes an independent entity,China's huge ambitions of using Gwadar as a major naval and submarine base will be sunk.China therefore is planning its own independent Baluchi strategy if Pak cannot hold onto it.The ideal option is to bolster Pak first.India therefore has to be prevented at all costs from playing any role in the province to encourage its independence.Imagine this scenario.Pak "invites" China to send its forces to Gwadar and Baluchistan help in the security of Chinese nationals involved in building the port,etc.,just as the Afghan regime invited the Soviets to help bolster their regime under covert attack from the west.Under MMS,India will hardly raise a squeak!

PS:Why Baluchistan/Gwadar is so important,at the approaches to the Gulf,containing the world's largest oil supplies.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/scien ... 66585.html

Warning: Oil supplies are running out fast
Catastrophic shortfalls threaten economic recovery, says world's top energy economist
By Steve Connor, Science Editor

(In a stark warning to Britain and the other Western powers, Dr Birol said that the market power of the very few oil-producing countries that hold substantial reserves of oil – mostly in the Middle East – would increase rapidly as the oil crisis begins to grip after 2010.

"One day we will run out of oil, it is not today or tomorrow, but one day we will run out of oil and we have to leave oil before oil leaves us, and we have to prepare ourselves for that day," Dr Birol said. "The earlier we start, the better, because all of our economic and social system is based on oil, so to change from that will take a lot of time and a lot of money and we should take this issue very seriously," he said. )
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by somnath »

^^^
PS:Why Baluchistan/Gwadar is so important,at the approaches to the Gulf,containing the world's largest oil supplies.
How is Gwadar important wrt dwindling oil supplies?!
China's huge ambitions of using Gwadar as a major naval and submarine base will be sunk
An oft repeated red herring. What are China's SLOC to Gwadar to maintain a "major naval base"? If I were a Chinese strategist, I would focus on getting a foothold first near the Straits of Malacca (which is where India holds the chickens neck in its hands via the Andaman based unsinkable aircraft carrier)...
Therefore,unable to deal with India's moral superiority-Nehru,remember they locked him up for 11 years (talk about Aung San Su Kyi);as India's first PM had tremendous moral authority respected globally despite our military prowess then being miniscule but for manpower
Unfortunately no one really cared - moralism without muscle is useless (as Josef Vissariovich said, how many tank divisions does the pope have?")...
India was most unlikely to support the west's adventurism and fight for them in the Cold War.It was therefore neccessary to separate the martial Muslims from India to further their interests in a separate state where they could remain forever "yours obediently",willing to do their master's bidding for the customary scraps from the high table.Pakistan was to be the US's springboard into Central Asia,a bulwark against the Russians and the Chinese.
That is one of more fantastic rationale for partition! So it was all well planned American conspiracy...And all the history behind the partition was somehow "manufactured" by the Americans since maybe the late 19th century (the Aligarh movement) - so the Americans knew that they would becoem the superpower, SU would be their competitor, there would be a cold war, and India would be non aligned...That would require some leap of astrological confidence!! :)
John Snow
BRFite
Posts: 1941
Joined: 03 Feb 2006 00:44

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by John Snow »

so the Americans knew that they would becoem the superpower,
somnath read up more, before you post man.

read here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Sanku »

John Snow wrote:
somnath read up more, before you post man.
You can set greater store in MMS doing something right by the BRF jirga
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by somnath »

John Snow wrote:
so the Americans knew that they would becoem the superpower,
somnath read up more, before you post man.

read here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny
Well, I do read - but fortunately quasi astrological visions are not part of my reading list..Even then, I fail to undertsand how whatever is stated in the wiki is relevant to what I wrote..
so the Americans knew that they would becoem the superpower, SU would be their competitor, there would be a cold war, and India would be non aligned
Barring the point on US becoming a superpower, what else is part of the Manifest Destiny prescience?

BTW, in case you are interested in what shaped modern American foreign policy, read the books on Wilsonianism (President Woodrow Wilson's vision for America - there is a ton of them) to understand better..
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by amit »


somnath read up more, before you post man.
You can set greater store in MMS doing something right by the BRF jirga
It's interesting to see how a contrarian viewpoint brings out the "best" from certain BRF jingos. :)

More power to groupthink!
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Rahul M »


An oft repeated red herring. What are China's SLOC to Gwadar to maintain a "major naval base"? If I were a Chinese strategist, I would focus on getting a foothold first near the Straits of Malacca (which is where India holds the chickens neck in its hands via the Andaman based unsinkable aircraft carrier)...
true, only explanation is gwadar can presumably be used as a submarine base for counter-threat against Indian shipping through arabian sea.
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by amit »

Rahul M wrote:

An oft repeated red herring. What are China's SLOC to Gwadar to maintain a "major naval base"? If I were a Chinese strategist, I would focus on getting a foothold first near the Straits of Malacca (which is where India holds the chickens neck in its hands via the Andaman based unsinkable aircraft carrier)...
true, only explanation is gwadar can presumably be used as a submarine base for counter-threat against Indian shipping through arabian sea.
Rahul,

If the Chinis were to use Gwadar as a submarine base I would think they'd need to get their N-subs there. I don't see their diesel/electric subs sailing all the way through the Malacca Straits or around Indonesia to Gwadar undetected by the Indian Navy.

But the question is would the US be comfortable with Chinese N-subs sitting just at the mouth of the world's busiest shipping lane? Would they allow that to happen? Would Japan or South Korea feel comfortable?

I personally think Gwadar was one of China's grandiose mega-infra wet dreams. They were probably serious about getting a land route from the Arabian sea to Western China. The Baluch movement has put paid to that - at least as of now.

Now we know the Indians don't have the ability to stir trouble in Baluchistan, but I sort of think I know one actor who can. :)
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by somnath »

Rahul M wrote:

An oft repeated red herring. What are China's SLOC to Gwadar to maintain a "major naval base"? If I were a Chinese strategist, I would focus on getting a foothold first near the Straits of Malacca (which is where India holds the chickens neck in its hands via the Andaman based unsinkable aircraft carrier)...
true, only explanation is gwadar can presumably be used as a submarine base for counter-threat against Indian shipping through arabian sea.
and how does the sub base get replenished - through the restive Baloch territories? Or how do the subs get repaired - set up a Chinese sub overhaul facility (the Pakis only use French subs today)? Will the Chinese setup a full spares and materiel facility? And the subs for major repairs etc take the long journey around SL to reach the South China sea..
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Rahul M »

somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by somnath »

If the Chinis were to use Gwadar as a submarine base I would think they'd need to get their N-subs there
SSBNs would make no sense, SSNs? All the above problems remain, if only in greater measure for a nuke sub..

But then how many N subs can China post in Gwadar? If its a solitary sub, the sub itself would be the "hunted", by IN, USN - instead of being the hunter!
amit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4325
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 18:28
Location: The Restaurant at the End of the Universe

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by amit »

OK Rahul boss,

I see your point. :)
on the flip-side, full fledged PLAN occupation in gwadar is unlikely to happen before amir khan vacates the area.
But I really wonder if even after vacating Afghanistan and Porkistan, Amir Khan will vacate the area, that is the Gulf, the Arabian Sea and Indian Ocean area. If they do so then it'll be for a Fortress America kind of isolationism. That's far off, though I think that's what it will eventually come to towards the later part of this century.

As of now they maintain a small little base in Diego Garcia so that they can remain the top dog in the region. And not to talk about their presence in the Gulf. Now a Chinni N-sub in the region would make the resident Rottweiler mighty pissed.
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Sanku »

amit wrote:More power to groupthink!
Hmm, I never knew consensus was a bad word. I guess MMS must have been influenced by views such as yours on the groupthink of Indian establishment when he decided to give it the short shrift and decided to blaze new grounds in S e S.

Anyway, can we get back to S e S thread please --

Gawadar can play a important role in a two front war, in case there is a declared axis of China-Pak attacking India it will make sense for the Chinese to use a port like Gawadar to post a limited brown water navy operating from Gwadar instead of South China sea.

It will be staging area at best of course, and the vessels would need to move to this region much before the war breaks out.

Currently our confidence in INs performance is based on certain assumptions of Naval strengths of Pakistan and Chinese distance from IOR, with Gwadar those assumptions will break.
Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 21537
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Philip »

Pl.read the history of Diego Garcia.The US demanded of Britain just after WW2,total unfettered use of Diego Garcia as an IOR naval and commns. base,which is why Britain never handed it over to Mauritius.The independence of Mauritius was deliberately delayed for ages until Sir Seewoosagar Ramgoolam gave up and allowed DG to remain British! The right of islanders to return to DG has been in the British Courts for decades.Technically,it is called BIOT belonging to Britain.India's partition also came at a price,obtained in similar fashion as that of Mauritius,the price being Pakistan.Moderate Muslim leaders were deliberately sidelined by the British in favour of separatist Jinnah.The creation of Pak was to have a reliable militaristic ally inside the Indian sub-continent to help checkmate Russia and China.India and its leadership was seen as unreliable .

Today,we have a US administration that thinks that China is the cat's whiskers,the opossum's eyebrows and the bee's knee! This "fat cat" is being touted by Uncle Obama as leading the world along with the US.Therefore ,as we saw during the Clinton admin.,a blind eye was truned towards Pak's nuclear perfidy,even right now,the AQK network and its proliferation a taboo subject,while NoKo and Iran were held up as rogue states,and India's N-tests were denounced in concert with China,who bankrolled Clinton! India is to be kept below and behind China in all matters.A willing rabbit and ex-World bank babu called MMS is carrying out Uncle Obama's orders these days.

PS:Iraq's oil reserves are supposed to be the world's second largest.The real reason for the war,control over it.
SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 25368
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by SSridhar »

Folks, there are interesting posts, but irrelevant to the capitulation at S-e-S. Please stick to the thread topic. Take those posts to the relevant threads.
Anthony Hines
BRFite
Posts: 105
Joined: 16 Jul 2009 22:09
Location: West of Greenwich

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Anthony Hines »

New to this so bear with me for a while.. I have been following this online debate with great deal of interest. One thing that I missed is the China angle. Here is some food for thought..

http://rothkopf.foreignpolicy.com/node/37624

and the copy of the article below:

Does India need Pakistan to deter China?
Submitted by Passport Admini... on Thu, 07/16/2009 - 5:45pm

Tensions between India and Pakistan seem to be easing this week, with both countries now pledging to cooperate on terrorism and intelligence-sharing after last November's attacks in Mumbai. It's a promising development which should allow Pakistan to turn its full attention to the all-out military campaign it's conducting in the lawless Swat valley. But I suspect there's more to the agreement than first meets the eye. These recent overtures probably have less to do with Pakistan than another nuclear-armed rival: China. It's no secret that New Delhi and Beijing have been locked in a border dispute since the two countries fought a war in 1962. But the Chinese have been heavily developing their side of the so-called "Line of Actual Control," and the Indians have had to play some serious catch-up:Chinese infrastructure
building along the Line of Actual Control has forced India to hasten its own
development process along the borders to keep pace with the neighbour's military might. [...]'China has been building a lot
of infrastructure — rails, airports, roads. We are also doing the same thing,'
defence minister A K Antony said after inaugurating the two-day unified
commanders-in-chief conference here."India has every right to be worried. One new report suggests China may be trying to extend its reach into Kashmir, and possibly even Pakistan. Another hints at the possibility of an imminent Chinese invasion of India: 'China will launch an
attack on India before 2012. There are multiple reasons for a desperate Beijing
to teach India the final lesson, thereby ensuring Chinese supremacy in Asia in
this century,' Bharat Verma, Editor of the Indian Defence Review, has said."Given the urgency of the situation, it's possible that India is trying to mend its stormy relationship with Pakistanin order to prevent a Sino-Pakistani partnership, or lay the foundation of a containment policy towards to China from dominating Asia. (See Minxin Pei's recent article in FP for more on this point.)Naturally, India might simply be pursuing cooperation with Pakistan for its own sake. But the move makes good strategic sense.Update: To clarify, India and Pakistan agreed to cooperate only on terrorism, claiming that these discussions won't lead to any broader peace deal. Maybe. AFP/GETTY IMAGES
From my POV, this move at S-e-S is simply a way to minimize a two front war - hopefully it should not happen..
svinayak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14222
Joined: 09 Feb 1999 12:31

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by svinayak »

somnath wrote:
BTW, in case you are interested in what shaped modern American foreign policy, read the books on Wilsonianism (President Woodrow Wilson's vision for America - there is a ton of them) to understand better..
This is a better book.
Special Providence: American Foreign Policy and How it Changed the World
Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Sanku »

Anthony Hines wrote:From my POV, this move at S-e-S is simply a way to minimize a two front war - hopefully it should not happen..
Thats a interesting PoV but it is not clear to me how it will lessen the chances of a two front war. Please elaborate?
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by RajeshA »

There is no need for a two-front war.

All India needs is to neutralize Pakistani Threat through a war of attrition. Pump as much money as we can in every two bit Pakiban, Baluchistani, Balwaristani, Jeeye Sindhi, MMQ-Altif, even JeM (if they behave), to every warlord, to every gangster. Buy off a couple of Army men and PAF men, say of a different ethnicity than Pakjabis, and let them blow every item into the air.
Wash the Pakistani market with fake currency. Pump the society with arms and ammunition.

Take a black eye if needed. But Pakistan will definitely implode! Ek dhakaa aur!
Anthony Hines
BRFite
Posts: 105
Joined: 16 Jul 2009 22:09
Location: West of Greenwich

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Anthony Hines »

Thats a interesting PoV but it is not clear to me how it will lessen the chances of a two front war. Please elaborate?
Will Pakistan risk wading into a War with India if there is a war between India and China when the US is increasingly entrenched in Pakistan?
brihaspati
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12410
Joined: 19 Nov 2008 03:25

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by brihaspati »

It is a matter of time before US withdraws further from the AFG front. Any war between India and Pakistan will now happen only if USA and China decide to play a cold-war style proxy war. Here again the balance could be fragile - because of possible uncertainty in Russian role. It could also be that only this uncertainty is what is keeping the proxy war from starting. Once Russian sympathies become clear the stronger alliance will launch the campaign.
Virupaksha
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 3110
Joined: 28 Jun 2007 06:36

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Virupaksha »

X-posting from TSP thread.
shynee wrote:India stung by Pak's back-stabbing :eek:
Stung by Pakistan stabbing it in the back was that sooooooo unexpected? So even after 100000 backstabbings, we never learn over Lashkar-e-Tayyeba (LeT) chief Hafiz Saeed, the mastermind of 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks, India has decided to suspend talks with Islamabad, says there is enough proof against Saeed. Highly placed government sources have told TIMES NOW that New Delhi has decided to suspend the dialogue with Pakistan till Islamabad takes action against the 26/11 mastermind.

Sources say that though post the bi-lateral exchange at Sharm-el-Sheikh, the government can't go back on its formal commitment to resuming dialogue with Pakistan, informally, however, it will now not engage with Pakistan. ok, its agreement, no an arrangement, no no no, its an arrangement over an agreement, sounds familar?but wasnt SeS an unsigned diplomatic paper without any meaning according to antaraashtriya diplomatic almost-chief Shriman Tharoorji? :rotfl:

The decision has been taken by the government after Pakistan decided to indefinitely postpone the appeal against the Pakistan High Court let off to Saeed.

External Affairs Minister SM Krishna, has however, condemned Pakistan for stopping just short of issuing an ultimatum ooh, condemnation, Pakis are going to pis* in their pants:
blue comments inside the article from me
Last edited by Virupaksha on 04 Aug 2009 01:29, edited 1 time in total.
csharma
BRFite
Posts: 695
Joined: 12 Jul 1999 11:31

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by csharma »

But Hillary had said that this time Pakistan is sincere about tackling Pakistan. What happened? Maybe more concessions are needed to make Pakistan sincere about tackling India specfic terrorism.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4725
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by putnanja »

TIME TO GET REAL - India has given Pakistan cause to celebrate - Brijesh D. Jayal
It is ironic that in the midst of a red alert of another possible terrorist strike in Mumbai, where allegedly seven specific targets were identified, India should have given cause to the Pakistan army’s general head quarters in Rawalpindi to celebrate. The reason, a joint statement by the prime ministers, Manmohan Singh and Syed Yousaf Raza Gilani, after their meeting on the sidelines of the non-aligned movement summit at Sharm el-Sheikh.

What has bewildered many in the Indian strategic community is the volte face by India in accepting that “action on terrorism should not be linked to the composite dialogue process and that these should not be bracketed” — contrary to the stand India had taken after the 26/11 (and earlier) terrorist attacks. The message to the Pakistan army and the ISI is that they can continue unhindered with their “silent war of inflicting a thousand cuts” on India, while the Pakistan government will sit on the diplomatic table with India signalling to the international community their involvement in banishing the scourge of terrorism

...
...
Endless reference to both nations being victims of terror without differentiating who the perpetrators are, distorts the entire picture. India is a victim of terror born out of Pakistan’s state policy where outfits have been created by the ISI as strategic assets to wage asymmetric war on India. Pakistan, on the other hand, is victim of its creation, the Taliban, who now are reacting to Pakistan supporting the US and Nato presence in Afghanistan. To overcome this rather obvious contradiction, Pakistan has now succeeded in trapping India into bringing “Balochistan and other areas” into the equation. Having introduced a red herring, the stage is set to bolster Pakistan’s oft-repeated claims that India is interfering in these areas. Worse still, every attack in Balochistan and other areas by the Taliban will be painted as an Indian-sponsored terrorist attack with suitably fabricated evidence.

Not surprisingly, on his return, a combative Gilani fired the first salvo by claiming that the joint statement “underlines our concerns over India’s interference in Balochistan and other areas of Pakistan”. In one go, India has achieved the diplomatic feat of moving from being an internationally accepted victim of Pakistan-sponsored terror to being accused of sponsoring terror in Pakistan.
...
...

Barely two months later on his flight to Havana for the summit of the NAM in September 2006, the prime minister surprised everyone by mentioning that Pakistan was also a victim of terror. At the conclusion of the meeting with Musharraf, the PM read out a joint statement that said, “They have decided to put in place an Indo-Pak anti-terrorism institutional mechanism to identify and implement counter-terrorism initiatives and investigations.” Not only had we forgotten the Mumbai train blasts, but clearly we continued to put blind faith in Musharraf, the architect of Kargil and of a subsequent coup in his country.
...
...
General Shankar Roychowdhury, an former chief and Rajya Sabha MP, quotes Brigadier S.K. Malik to conclude that hatred of India is a deep-rooted article of faith in the Pakistan army, deliberately nurtured over the years and handed down through the ranks for generations. The Indian security establishment would do well to heed these and many other such warnings. That there will be another terrorist attack on Indian soil is not in doubt. What is in doubt is how the Indian State will then react. From events of the last few years we seem to be running out of options and indulging in hollow rhetoric. It’s time to get real and accept that the Pakistan army and the ISI are committed to a silent war and unless the internal structure within Pakistan changes, India is at a grave risk. Talk by all means, but know your enemy.

Ad hoc handling of national security issues is detrimental to the long-term security interests and morale of the country. The nation needs to be taken into confidence. The government needs to assess the long-term security threat shorn of short-term national or international pressures, to share it with the people in clear terms and to tell the people what is being proposed to safeguard the security interests of the country and the price the nation should be prepared to pay. A white paper on national security should be prepared by the government and be discussed across the country and in Parliament. The matter is too sensitive to be politicized or deferred. On the issue of national security, let the nation display unity, resolve and some spine.

The author is a retired air marshal of the Indian Air Force
KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4849
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by KLNMurthy »

I am shocked. Shocked I tell you, that Pakistan indulges in back-stabbing.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by shiv »

ravi_ku wrote:X-posting from TSP thread.
India stung by Pak's back-stabbing[/b] :eek:
Stung by Pakistan stabbing it in the back was that sooooooo unexpected? So even after 100000 backstabbings, we never learn

Why should India "be stung"? We should trust no? Trust the Pakistanis. We can verify later - some other time.

Sorry about this short note - I will take a leaf out of the GoI book and go sell my grandmother now in exchange for a beedi. I need my morning smoke..
Anujan
Forum Moderator
Posts: 7899
Joined: 27 May 2007 03:55

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Anujan »

shiv wrote:Sorry about this short note - I will take a leaf out of the GoI book and go sell my grandmother now in exchange for a beedi. I need my morning smoke..
You got it all wrong. The GoI book clearly states your grandmother can sell a beedi to smoke you. That is the GoI interpretation. Also by metioning beedi they have made sure that its health effects can be brought up in the future.
shiv
BRF Oldie
Posts: 34981
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Pindliyon ka Gooda

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by shiv »

I am just beginning to wonder - are our bureaucrats well informed about Pakistan? I am beginning to feel that there is something completely dysfunctional about the way Pakistan is handled by India.

Our politicians have ad hoc reactions and do not seem to base their judgements on either a deep study of Pakistan or a knowledge of history of post-independence Pakistani actions. Look at SM Krishna. I am certain that he does not know Pakistan the way many on this forum know it. But if politicians are ignorant - it is up to the bureaucrats to educate them and if our IAS/IFS cadre do not have what it takes to teach the politicos it explains exactly why Indians look like such idiots dealing with Pakistan.

And where would our bureaucrats get their information from? Senior Indian bureaucrats would have had their main education 20-30 years ago. What was the literature available on Pakistan then? In fact it is only in the last 5 years or so that there has been an explosion of literature about Pakistan written by Indians and an even bigger explosion of literature written by non Indians.

Many of us have become experts on this forum after reading and reading all the available literature. Have our bureaucrats doe that? Apart from a few people like Parthasarathy, B Raman and the late JN Dixit - it is not at all clear that the Indian government is not talking through its hat when talking about Pakistan.

The idiocy and ignorance displayed is frightening. Its not just the top echelons - the foundations are weak. The advice given to the PMO and other senior politicians is faulty.
putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4725
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by putnanja »

Shiv saar, did you forget that G Parthasarathy and B Raman were branded as BJP spokesmen by the PMO during the nuclear deal tamasha? They are the "hardliners" which the "we don't have alternative to peace talks" brigade don't like. So the officials have to go with what they have.

You can teach a person with an open mind, but if the mind is already made up, no amount of teaching will alter that. "konana mundhe kinnari barisida haage" ( it is like playing music in front of a buffalo)
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by RayC »

shiv wrote:
ravi_ku wrote:X-posting from TSP thread.
India stung by Pak's back-stabbing[/b] :eek:
Stung by Pakistan stabbing it in the back was that sooooooo unexpected? So even after 100000 backstabbings, we never learn

Why should India "be stung"? We should trust no? Trust the Pakistanis. We can verify later - some other time.

Sorry about this short note - I will take a leaf out of the GoI book and go sell my grandmother now in exchange for a beedi. I need my morning smoke..
:rotfl:

Brajaesh Jayal sums up how gullible the GOI can be!

It does prove technocrats can't make good PMs, unless they have had a long enough stint in politics to see and realise the murky flotsam and jetsam that they have to wade through to come up and get a quick gasp of breath.

India, currently, is gasping like a landed fish!

Yet, I am sure we will survive and bat along! ;)

The meek shall inherit the Earth?
arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by arun »

RayC wrote:The meek shall inherit the Earth?
It's not the earth the meek inherit, it's the dirt :wink: .
arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by arun »

Economic Times finds that our Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh’s conclusion that a “consensus against terrorism” has evolved in the Islamic Republic of Pakistan is belied by the release of terrorist Hafiz Saeed.

I now wait with bated breath as to what explanation the Dr. Manmohan Singh led Government is going to conjure up.

Will the release of Hafiz Saeed be found to be “Bad Drafting” of the judgement by Pakistan’s Supreme Court or would it be the case that in the judgement, the Pakistan Supreme Court permitted the defendants “Unilateral” view to be inserted :rotfl: . Hmmm …….... maybe neither as the Supreme Court of Pakistan released Hafiz Saeed on "Trust" and will susequently "Verify" if he was worthy of the ''Trust" :wink: :
Look what consensus on terror means in Pakistan!
4 Aug 2009, 0518 hrs IST, ET Bureau

NEW DELHI: In yet another blow to Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's Pakistan's policy, Jamaat-ud-Dawa chief Hafiz Saeed, the mastermind of the attack on Mumbai, has been allowed to remain free.

……………… It was only last week that Manmohan Singh told Parliament that there was a consensus in Pakistan against terrorism. He had said this "consensus against terrorism, would strengthen the hands of its leaders in taking the hard decisions that will be needed to destroy terrorism and its sponsors". ……………….......

Economic Times
arun
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10248
Joined: 28 Nov 2002 12:31

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by arun »

X Post.

Ramachandra Guha in the July 30, 2009 edition of the Hindustan Times.

The advanced age, all are over 75 years old, of the senior three individuals involved in Indian foreign policy, Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh, Foreign Minister S. M. Krishna and National Security Adviser M.K. Narayanan may be a factor in this and other recent foreign policy fiasco’s:
Twilight years for our foreign policy

……………… At the risk of being accused of ‘age-ism’, one must ask whether the recent misjudgements in our dealings with Pakistan and the United States are completely unconnected with the age of our principal negotiators. For the worrying thing is that the prime minister, the foreign minister and the NSA are all the wrong side of 75. In the rocky ocean of global politics, the Indian ship of State can carry one old man, perhaps even two. But three? …………….........

Hindustan Times
RajeshA
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16006
Joined: 28 Dec 2007 19:30

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by RajeshA »

Are they still in step? by Rajeev Deshpande: Times of India
The philosophical choice that Singh presented: Could India and Pakistan break away from their hawkish stance? Could India shed its sense of victimhood, genuinely de-hyphenating itself from Pakistan? When the big powers were prepared to look at India in its own right, where was the profit in bringing up Pakistan at every turn? Singh also told the Lok Sabha on July 29 that in the absence of the option of war, dialogue was the only way out. His vision of a "shared future and common prosperity" is anchored in the belief that it is time to break out of mutually hostile silos.
Indians only have a sense of victimhood. If Bollywood heroines can shed their clothes, why can't Indians at least try to shed our sense of victimhood? It is not even an official sense. We have sense of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch. Where did this stupid sense of victimhood come from?
Anthony Hines
BRFite
Posts: 105
Joined: 16 Jul 2009 22:09
Location: West of Greenwich

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Anthony Hines »

I guess this flows from politicians who genuinely lack strategic vision. They are too busy worrying about themselves, how can they worry about the country?
Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17167
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by Rahul M »

arun wrote:
RayC wrote:The meek shall inherit the Earth?
It's not the earth the meek inherit, it's the dirt :wink: .
:rotfl:
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by RayC »

With all due regards to the PM and while he maybe cats whiskers in economics, he is out of depth with foreign affairs!
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 60239
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by ramana »

RayC, Its the willow that survives the coming storm.
RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Capitulation at Sharm el Sheikh

Post by RayC »

ramana wrote:RayC, Its the willow that survives the coming storm.

It is a good saying, no doubt.

But the Jt statement is an oak!

I am all for peace, but NOT peace at all costs!

BTW cricket bats are also made of willow, they create the 6s!

We have not been able to contact the ball with the bat and so our middle stump has been blown to smithereens!
Post Reply